Buckle up for an unfiltered dose of comedy. Full disclosure, I've had a lot of sex, but honestly, having sex with me is like buying a Prius. Much quieter than you'd expect.
Ethics presents unprotected sex. Listen to me. I heart radio out podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Coming up. Where the bodies are buried contains graphic depictions of violence that some listeners may find disturbing discretion is advised. Forget what you've heard about serial killers. Forget the movies, podcasts and stories in the media of infamous psychopaths like Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy.
I'm going to show you what exists beyond all of that. And you will hear from the source, the killers themselves. This is where the bodies are buried at.
My name is Phil Chalmers. For over 35 years, I've dedicated my life to communicating with and studying hundreds of serial killers, teen killers, school shooters and mass murderers, I help solve cold cases, locate bodies and bring closure to hurting families of the victim. Joining me is my wife, Wendy, and my producers, Adam and Samantha. Samantha, you ready? Yep. All right. We're rolling. One, two. All right.
We are about to touch on a very sensitive and controversial subject, teen killers in school shooters. This week, we're going to be speaking to two killers who committed their crimes when they were just teenagers, when he was just 15 years old. Charles Andrew Williams Jr. was responsible for a school shooting at Santana High School back in 2001. And Joshua Cooke, who is referred to as the Matrix killer, was responsible for the killing of both his parents in 2002.
Josh claims his addiction to violent video games in the movie The Matrix, combined with being bullied and abused, led him to murdering his parents in cold blood. He says that if that never happened, he may have become a serial killer in the making.
I started dealing with teen killers in school shooters when I was 20 years old. I interviewed over 200 teen killers and school shooters to understand the causes of teen murder. The warning signs that we all should be looking for and the triggers that creating killers.
First, we start with Joshua Cooke, the Matrix killer.
Nineteen year old Joshua Cooke brutally gunned down his parents. His motives are currently unknown, but our sources tell us his addictions to violent video games, movies and music may have played a part. Joshua Cooke, who fatally shot his adoptive parents inside their suburban home, was sentenced to 40 years in prison. The case gathered considerable attention when defense lawyers filed a motion claiming Cooke believed he was living in the virtual reality of the science fiction film The Matrix. Cook later entered a guilty plea when lawyers felt their case wouldn't hold up.
The beginning of the episode will be an interview with Joshua Cook, The Matrix killer. At times it will be difficult to understand him because of the prison phone.
This call is from an inmate in the Virginia Department of Corrections. Hey, Josh, how are you doing? Why are you in prison right now?
I mean, because it for 17 years now, I've been here because I killed my mom and my dad with a shotgun after 2003. I was 19 years old at the time. I was a ticking time bomb. Growing up as a teen, due to a few underlying factors, I was able to abuse the school I was before. The recession was nearly three years to be my sister's life status, a. etc.. My father was emotionally abusive to both, well, especially my mother.
I often fantasized about killing a 12 year old. Also, I was I was heavily impacted by my severe addiction to video games, video like The Matrix. I was basically released shortly afterwards. I raised myself as an adult, depressed and adopted as I was six months after we adopted it to the family to abuse started from my mother and refuses to focus on remembering things because we just hated her from the get go and out of love for her. I don't know what her problem was.
He was a warrior for her. I think that whatever was going on, she was letting us have, you know. So here at 12 years old, you I remember I remember talking to my sister and I tried with my house to my sisters, my biological sisters and I were like this. You have to do this to us. And so that's where we initially started.
Were you inspired by violent video games, violent music or anything like that?
Yeah, absolutely. I was actually listening to Father John Paul body likability factor for the song. And in the actual act at the time, I was actually killing my parents. I heard it was bad news and commentary was kind of so goes to games. I was very much hooked on some of these, bill. Were you inspired by the Matrix movie? Absolutely. Basically, I was obsessed with The Matrix. I watched it so many times that I literally hundreds of people watched it on my show.
I was taking on the character sort of deal with protagonist of the movie. I guess I'll get to the point. I felt like I was losing my mind. And in the commercial real estate, the real world, by becoming beyond myself, being here, I could become single, which, by the way, you stand up to the voices for all the imagined because you can't deal with the movie. On the day I would have been wanting to mention in your life, been like before my I was to get my life sized poster out of my life.
Let's talk about bullying. I mean, this is a major problem that we see in schools all around the world. Can someone really be pushed and bullied to the point of murder?
Bullying is a major problem. It is the number one cause of school shootings. I can relate to kids who've been bullied. I experienced a little bit that growing up myself. And we see now kids will bring guns to school, get revenge on bullies with violence, bloodshed and murder.
I heard many times that kids behavior is due to violent games, music, movies. Is that really a factor? I think it's a major issue that nobody really knows the truth to.
It's a very small piece of the puzzle, but it is a piece of the puzzle. You know, I'm not one to say violent video games cause kids to kill. I don't believe that. It's just one of the factors. When I was growing up, we did not blow people's brains out all day long playing video games. So it's a different era we live in. And we're seeing the effects of this, I believe, especially kids that are younger that are playing these video games.
Josh? All right, let's walk through your crime.
You were on the. I would hope that it would because of all the good. It was hard to in the Court of Appeals to get it down to the decision and I to wash the dishes, washing the dishes, just like what I just said the other day.
But the clothes at the corner of that, by talking to a girl who went downstairs, we got down to the bottom of it. We had to do with the. Not are small businesses, you know, will no problem with, you know, my father was sitting on the other side of the table on top and I had the full body for clean the whole time. I want to be rude, but I think that this is what I was getting at the top of the case.
It's very peaceful. And what was interesting at the bottom of the first things looked up at me, she said of the gunshot wound to the head office, and she looked and insisted on civil war. You, Europe and I, the trigger along stairs. I put the phone to call the police and I got the Coca Cola from the refrigerator and it went for own police to.
How long did you plan this, this last week? I didn't even know. All I knew was I was on the verge of exploding in. My parents were probably going to be on the refusal of that already. It was just like any normal type of thing. Get out of the country a few days before I committed the crime from a sporting goods store.
Did you have any warning signs? Anything? People should have seen a great deal. People need to pay attention. And I just like to to you know, I had a fascination with of school shootings because I would have wanted to emulate them, you know, like the Columbine shootings. They were like in regards to Korea. They were my heroes because they were like my fellow bullies pulling it off. And so I felt like I was one of them.
And I used to dream about going into the school. What I'd like to put on, like, you know, just like the Columbine shootings and to see the whole school. But when it comes to my parents, basically, I just I say this is kind of hard to talk about sometimes, you know, oh, I'm sorry to say, you know, I got a lot of economic activity that goes by and I think about what I did, but I can't.
They make me mentally ill home and I will continue on. Pokerface will be held up for a shot. And then there'll be like they'll be like in a place that I can see the proposal kinescope. Like somebody put that together piece by piece until you look at me. This I give you.
This is just really hard to listen to. I have mixed feelings. I mean, I feel terrible that a child has to go through all of this. But then again, a killer is a killer. There are a lot of details.
They didn't talk about this interview where his parents were begging for their lives. The father was actually on the phone with his sister. She heard this all happen. It's a multiple cause crime.
So we can't just say if you play violent video games, you're going to be a school shooter or if you come from poverty or you come from a dysfunctional home.
In my opinion, it takes about three to six causes to create a teen killer when you put enough of these causes together, dysfunctional home abuse, violent video games, bullying, substance abuse, you start stacking all these things up, it's eventually going to explode. And that's what you see with Josh Cooke. Josh Cooke is adopted. He's being abused. He's in a violent entertainment. He's being bullied, he's suicidal. And it's just one thing after another.
And this is what we see in these cases where Josh Cooke can no longer deal with all these issues. And he explodes. He goes up in his room, looks at his poster, puts on his headphones, listens to his violent music. He had been playing violent video games, watching a violent movie, loads up his shotgun, walks downstairs and highlights his own parents. And when he was done, he grabbed a Coke, sat on the front porch and called the police.
Our next call will be with Charles Andy Williams, Santana, California, school shooter who's responsible for shooting 15 of his fellow students.
We will also be talking to Jack Thompson, an expert on video game violence and.
This season, get football on your time with NFL game pass, relive all the action with full game replays. We do it again with you again. We do it again. Catch every snap in just forty five minutes with condensed games for the touchdown. Learn from the pros with film sessions once you get that resume as a chess match and get access to the NFL Films aka go to NFL dotcoms. Last game past to start your free trial today. NFL game pads where football never stops.
Hey, Dennis Quaid here, and I want to tell you about the orange tree now, I have recently started a podcast network called Audio Up. And much as I prepare for movie roles, I've been researching the podcast landscape and listening to hundreds of podcasts. One in particular stopped me in my tracks, The Orange Tree. It's a true crime podcast series filled with such authenticity and care by Haley Butler and Tina Thomas, two journalists who were University of Texas students when they started reporting on the story.
It's about the 2005 murder of a young woman named Jennifer Cave near the University of Texas at Austin campus. What struck me most was the thorough examination of the case and the exclusive access granted to these two young reporters. What makes this true crime story so unique is their perspective. There are two young women who are the same age as Jennifer Cave, and it very similar points in their lives. The orange tree is engaging. It's thoughtful and really, really powerful.
Take a listen to the Orange Tree or an Apple podcast, Spotify Stitcher or wherever you listen to podcast today. We're talking about a really tough subject on this episode of teen violence and school shootings. I've spent a lot of time researching this subject. We will talk to Jack Thompson, an expert on video game violence. And lastly, we'll be interviewing Charles Andy Williams, who was responsible for a school shooting at Santana High School at the age of 15.
We are joined by an expert on video game violence, Jack Thompson. You're an activist. You're an expert on violent video games. What is your take on the connection between violent video games and real life violence?
Well, there are basically three proofs that there is a causal nexus, three categories of proof. One is the American Psychological Association, as well as others, has repeatedly found that there's a linkage as to one thing causing another between violent video game play and teen aggression. Another category of proof comes out of Indiana University, Harvard, with MRI studies that show that violent video games actually alter the structures of teenage brains. And the MRI is proof that the violent content impacts both the cognitive control centers of the brain and also the emotion and violence control portions of the brain.
The Marjory Stoneman Douglas shooting by Nicholas Cruz, in which this teenager killed 17, injured 17 more. There is evidence of his video game played up to 18 hours a day and his game of choice were Call of Duty and Grand Theft Auto.
Jack, what do you say to people that say, you know, I've played video games my whole life and I've never killed anybody?
Not everyone who smokes gets lung cancer, but nobody would seriously suggest that smoking doesn't cause lung cancer in some people. So what we know is that violent video games make everyone who plays them more susceptible to violent behavior, because if you put violent garbage in, you are more likely to get violent or at least more aggressive behavior out. What could we do to protect children from this form of media?
Well, Phyllis, you know, I've been at this a long time, well over a decade. And the reality is there is a lot law, the truth in advertising laws that are already on the books. And here's how it would work. Video game industry, age, race games based upon content and most notably upon violence. What we know is they routinely sell despite promises that they won't mature rated video games to kids under the age of 17. They may do it in big box stores.
They do it more easily through Internet sales. For example, go to Grand Theft Auto. Any of the offerings of that franchise you can without having your age verified or even asked you at that game. So here's the industry saying I will never knowingly sell in a restricted game to anyone under that age, when in fact they do. And now we have digital direct downloads to gaming platforms like PlayStation and Xbox with no age verification whatsoever. That's fraudulent and deceptive trade practice.
So we don't need a new law. We simply need the willingness of people at the federal and state governmental levels to enforce those laws that are on the books.
Tell us about some of the kids that you know who carried out some of these crimes and they were big, avid gamers.
Sure. I've met Kashua, who killed both his parents, and he was an obsessive watcher of The Matrix and also player of the Grand Theft Auto Games, most notably as to my experience on death row with Devin Thompson, no relation who literally trained on Grand Theft Auto to kill three cops. It's heartbreaking to meet these kids, but for the very video game, consumption would not have done what they did. One of the unintended consequences, but benefits of the pandemic is that these teenagers who are for six months and doing nothing but playing violent video games and therefore predisposed to do the things that we've been talking about here are thankfully not in school.
I can't imagine what's going to happen once we go back to real instruction involving kids who played on these games for months and months and months. And there's a heightened likelihood of more school shootings because of that.
Wow. We appreciate what you do. Keep fighting the fight. Thanks for joining us. Thank you for bye. Now we talk about every parent across the country's biggest fear, a school shooting, Charles Andrew Williams woke up one morning with the intent to kill as many people as possible. He recounts that day and the eight months leading up to it, including bullying and being sexually abused. But nothing will ever justify killing two young students and injuring 15 others.
This call is from the correction facility and may be subject to monitoring and recording. Your real name is Charles Williams, but you go by Andy. Why are you in prison? I'm afraid.
Because on March 5th, 2001, I stole my dad's pistol and I went to my high school and shot 15 of my classmates. I murdered Brian Zikr and Randy Gordon and attempted to murder Scott Marshall, Travis Tave, Melissa McCarthy, Trevor Edwards remits rather Heather Cruz, very different Jamie interest and that Matthew Ayacucho ever. Tim Estes and Peter Ruiz.
That day you killed how many people, Brian Zachary Rhatigan, what was your sentence and what is it today?
Originally it was 50 years to life. I pled guilty when I was 16. I wanted to take responsibility and being able to sell a since the 50 years to life and then and two thousand and 13 California amended some of their juvenile justice laws. Because I was 15 when I committed the crime, my sentence was reduced to 25 years to life.
When did you enter the prison system? Committed the crime in 2001, when I was 15. I was sentenced in August of 2002 and then two weeks later was delivered to the California Department of Corrections. And I was 15 and entered an adult prison, 16 years old.
They sent you to an adult prison. How much did you weigh back then? What I committed the crime, I was about five to 98 pounds.
So you ended the prison system, which is California, which is one of the worst at 130 pounds at 16 years in. Was that as hard? As tough as it sounds?
Absolutely. And like that at the time, I had this really fatalistic attitude and thought I needed to punish myself. And so I really felt like all the bad stuff that was happening to me was deserve or my fault.
So did you have to fight? Did you deal with sexual attacks?
I was never, like, physically sexually assaulted. But people make comments all the time, just like being young. My first week in prison, grown men are showing me the knives in my butt to not get caught with them from officers. It was a very uncomfortable living situation.
And you sit here now looking at a possible release from prison in the next four or five years, is that correct?
About that? Yeah. Yes, sir.
And if you are released from prison, where will you go and what will you do?
I have several options. It's only because of mercy that I don't deserve and that I don't have come. I have family in the San Bernardino County area based on my vocational training that I've gotten certified in construction technology. I've gotten college degrees. I recently got certified as a drug and alcohol counselor.
Were you bullied? And if you were, explain how were you bullied as a kid?
It was just me and my dad and he was discharged from the army. Like we bounced around a lot when I was a kid. So I was just constantly moving and constantly having to make friends and then leaving my friends and then going to another school and then leaving that school and going to another school. And so I had a little bit of stability from the time I was 13 and then we moved again. By the time we ended up in Santee, I had developed this four million personality right where it was.
Whoever I was with, that's the person I was. I had no sense of self. I had no identity just because I had no idea who I was. I had this really a need for acceptance. I just really need people to like me because I hated changed. I hated being by myself. I was constantly alone because I was always moving. And it was really difficult for me to get friends to move to San Diego. And immediately I get drawn to the kids that are using drugs and drinking because I was part of my social circle.
It's the way rougher crowd than I was used to get passed down. I was getting called names and I was to 298 pounds. I had an accent. I would get beat up for that stuff all the time and progressed from like name calling to getting fucked in the face. And people were like, oh, we're sorry. Like we said, I'm not able to defend myself against this. I don't want to leave these guys because these are my only friends and I want to be one myself.
And this weird catch 22, I was relying on drugs and alcohol to numb the pain. And these guys were my connections for the drug and alcohol. But a lot of times there the source from the pain, they were the cure and cause of the suffering that I was going through at fourteen. Right. And I couldn't tell my dad because it was just me and him and he was constantly at work. My mom was here every now and then when I was with her, I tried to be this bubbly of kid that she I didn't really want to drop none of my junk efforts.
So it was on me that internalize all the stuff people would call me names, faggy bitch, you pussy, you coward. I don't want to be losing. But then I started calling myself that. Randy, did you talk to me in the face like I must be a bitch and I'm not doing about it. And so I'm hearing it from them, but I'm also getting this internal dialogue with myself. And so the progress is always wear the same hooded sweatshirt and people are thrilled, vigorous in it.
I would go to lunch if you would put salad dressing on my head. I got pushed into a pool one time in October, if it was really cold out there, fully clothed. And every time I came to the site, they would grab out and they were standing. And so they were standing with you, like in the middle of this pool for what felt like hours. I'm sure it was that long, but it felt like forever and ever higher was having a good time, except for me, like I'm freezing and bleeding.
And I got sprayed with lighter fluid and set on fire. And it's like it was this progression of stuff. And my belief system at the time was, man, I must not be important. Nobody likes me. I don't matter if I can play any of these guys. This is going to call me more names. If I say anything to a school administrator, there hasn't been my experience. I don't know what that looks like. So the fourteen year old I'm catastrophizing and thinking like, oh, they're going to take these kids anyway.
I was so completely lost at the time. Wow. I like zero direction. My. These are killers, so I'm not here to say we should feel sorry for them, they committed murder. The sad part about these kids is their brain is not fully developed until their mid 20s. These kids are making adult decisions at the age of 13, 15, 16 years old. The consequences for making these adult decisions are lifelong. Some of them will never, ever be released from prison.
This is a difficult subject. We have seen so many of these kinds of shootings all across the country over the last 30 years. Phil, can you talk to us about what you think the steps are to stop these horrible acts from happening again and again?
I've developed 13 causes of why kids kill. And in my opinion, teen murder and school shootings is a multiple cause crime. It takes, in my opinion, three to six causes to create a teen killer. Examples are you come from a dysfunctional home. You have no father. You're involved in drugs and alcohol. You're obsessed with violent video games and violent media. You're obsessed with deadly weapons. You're involved in gang activity, suicidal. And it goes like that for about 13 causes.
It takes three to six of those to create a teen killer. Sometimes you only get one warning sign. For example, the Parkland, Florida killer tweeted that he wanted to be a professional school shooter. The warning signs are out there. If we know what we're looking for, we should be able to intercept these kids before they kill and get them help. So you have a 15 year old brain, you're being bullied, punched, salad dressing poured on your head, you're set on fire, you're they try to drown in the pool.
Your parents are divorced. You live with your dad, you're experimenting with drugs and alcohol, and your life is a mess. How do you go from there, Andy, to saying, I think I'm going to do a school shooting?
So all this stuff has gone on. There's abuse from one of the adults, my best friend, that that is abusing us women here.
Your friend's stepdad is sexually abusing you, right?
Yeah. I didn't get as bad as my stepdad was, but all the bullying has gone on for my peers. And then this guy is lying like the little group of 14 or 15 year old kids and alcohol and cigarettes and making us kids. It was very uncomfortable. So on February 8th, my birthday, one of my best friends from my problems end up getting killed and the first ever experience in my life. Right now, I'm really confused. That happened on my birthday.
And so I go to my peer group and I'm like, hey, guys, I, I'm a little bit longer right now. Like, my friend was just killed and they laughed at him. And I remember I was crying and my friend bedroom and I was like, oh, what did you bring in here? And I'm like, holy smokes. It's true. Nobody cares about me because of all my friends, because about this the fact that was just the tape that I had planned for a month.
Nobody really cares about me. So I started idolizing suicide, that this is my way out. My life will be better if I'm no longer in it. This is it. I'm going to kill myself and I've got to figure out a way to do it. I have been skipping school and back in the day with answering machines. Right. And so I wouldn't go to school and then the school would call my parents. I would go home before my dad got home and I read the message.
But he ended up getting off work one day early. So when he got home, there was like, hey, and he hasn't been here in ages. What's going on? Your book? And so my dad takes upward, drives me to school on March 2nd and has been and the guidance counselor, he's going to say, look, man, my boy's got a bunch of bruises. I can't explain when my boy isn't with me, he's with you guys.
You guys are responsible for him. And he's like, look, I got 2000 staff and students here. We can't just watch one kid. And I'm like, what do I do? I not do anything. But I take a step out and be brave. I was like, you know, I'm going to come clean. I told Steve what's going on, like he's a guidance counselor, even adult in authority. Maybe I'll get a report, you know, working out for me.
Something's got to give. I'm getting beat up by everybody to suck. And the guy was like, look, my boys are going to be boys. You need to toughen up. We're going to make the right school. You got to toughen up our holy I mean, you don't care about me. Nobody cares about me. They don't care about friends. They care about me. I don't matter to any of these people, just us. Nobody cares.
And that's all that those words are all they've got on my head, man. So I go to my drama class and I was a terrible student and perhaps I didn't do my homework. She's like India and India. You're no good. This was so stupid, embarrassing in front of the entire class. I'm like a terrible day. Like it's over. I'm embarrassed. My teacher called me Olivant. I believe all the names to be true. So we go to lunch and I'm all fired up and I'm like, you know, the guys on Monday morning when I come back to school, I'm going to shoot my drama teacher.
You have one minute remaining agreement, OK? Teen killers and school shooters don't kill without a trigger being arrested, being expelled, being dumped by their girlfriend. These are the kind of triggers that cause kids to become killers.
It is tough to listen to this, to how poorly Charles is treated leading up to these murders. But I got to know, getting to the point where you actually want to kill people, I just I don't understand. There's a disconnect there. This guy still sounds like a kid.
We are not condoning violence and we are not giving Andy an excuse for what he did. But we know that the human brain is not fully developed, at least until the early 20s. And most experts say mid 20s. Charles Andy Williams actually thought two things would happen that day when he took his father's revolver to school and he was going to die either at his own hands or the hands of police or number two, he thought that when he carried out this violent crime, he would be back in school next year with the respect of his fellow students.
We're going to finish up our conversation with Charles Andy Williams as he walks us through his violent school shooting that changed his life forever, as well as the lives of his fellow students.
Three. Hi, I'm Gengel Jared, I created a podcast called Occupational Therapy with my friends at NYU School of the Arts as an artist in residence in my former occupation, I was the biggest jingle writer of all time. Now I'm looking for a new job, speaking to every entrepreneur that I can find so I can find out what it's like to transition from one career to another. This podcast is a virtual masterclass for anyone looking to expand their knowledge of how to be an entrepreneur in the media space.
In it, I speak with many multi hyphenate personalities that span sports, television, music and journalism. Every single person in this podcast is a disruptor and innovator and have left a major dent in their part of the universe. I'm Jared Goosestep and this is occupational therapy. Listen on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, this is Dennis Quaid, and I want to tell you about a new show I've produced that I know you're going to love. It's called The Pet Show. And, well, it's a show about pets and alternate universe full of strange and wonderful people who love and are quite possibly obsessed with their pets, talking to them about their pets and their relationship with animals. Finally, we've also made a bunch of special episodes focusing on incredible moments in pet history.
That's right. The first of all, tell the tale of the acoustic kitty and the CIA frangible attempt to train cats to become spies. Make sure you check out the pet show from audio. What? It's the podcast with a purpose.
Listen to the pet show on the radio at Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. We're talking to Charles Andrew Williams. So far, he's told us about what factors he feels led him to commit his terrible crimes, and soon he will be telling us about that horrible day, March 5th, 2001, when two innocent children lost their lives at Santana High School.
But first, we are speaking with Dr. Beth Kriol, a certified grief counselor specializing in PTSD, death and loss. She is giving her expert opinion on our interview with school shooter Charles Andy Williams. Hi there. Thank you for talking with me first. Give us your official title.
I'm a certified grief recovery specialist, which means that we deal with individuals that are getting over trauma and loss and we deal with death.
What was your impression after listening to Charles Andy Williams? The first thing that I thought was, wow, he really needs to talk. And then as the interview was going on, he was talking about how it was important for him to know all the victims names because this was a way for him to almost have a connection with them and their families and feel a certain sense of compassion as to what he did. I felt that his anxiety was really quite all over the place at 15, which are incredibly formidable years for both male and female children.
There was instability in his state of mind. He says. At one point, if I'm not mistaken, he said he had low self-esteem. He started off by answering questions and then he was almost vomiting information. To me, that's a sign of anxiety. I question what his life was like growing up. Did he live his whole life in this possibly depressed state because the average child that gets bullied is not turning into a school shooter? I always wonder when a mother is absent.
Individuals have a very difficult time when there has been neglect in early childhood, and I wondered about that neglect. He also spoke about his father and how his father was in the military. So they moved around a lot. So I question what his attachment was like to other people. Did he live his whole life in this possibly depressed state because the average child that gets bullied is not turning into a school shooter? We have to look at what their life was like.
And I'm not using this as an excuse. There's no excuse here for his behavior, but it's interesting to go back in time and see where something went wrong. I think at some point he felt neglected. Possibly this is why he was attached to the kids that were involved in drugs, bad behavior. This is the only attachment that he was familiar with. And so there was a false attachment there. Does this turn around and make somebody want to do some kind of a school shooting?
The answer is possibly. There's a theory called learned helplessness and learned helplessness is very interesting because a lot of times learned helplessness can turn into victimization. He learned in life to play a helpless role because time after time you've been introduced to trauma. So you have this feeling of woe is me. There's always going to be a shoe that's going to drop. It's always been bad in my life. So when somebody has learned helplessness mentality, they see things always every time, everything.
Woe is me. He said this continuously throughout the interview. Nobody was listening to him. Nobody cared. Nobody bothered to find out how he felt. So I think that this really fed into the learned helplessness and therefore he's going to take out his victimization on other people.
What are your thoughts on bullying being one of the causes of bullying?
And if it started in the home and then he was bullied by friends is a very interesting comment. Those that get bullied, bullied and those that get hurt or hurt, he ended up doing the ultimate bullying, which is killing. And he also told people so he was preparing people. I mean, he told people, hey, I'm going to do this, which is a form of bullying in and of itself as well. It's questions like these. You want to ask yourself because then do we give birth to a school shooter and can we avoid this?
Thank you for your insights and for taking the time to talk to us. Let's hope someday we can stop this. No problem.
And good luck with this. Now for the rest of my interview with Charles Andy Williams, this call is from a correction facility and may be subject to monitoring and recording. Andy, tell us about that horrible day, March four, 2001. Yeah, no, I told my friends at lunch on Monday morning when I come back to school, I'm going to show my drama teacher like, I don't know, like real cavalier and really put it zero and whatever.
Andy, you're a big operation, but you're not going to do anything. You're big a pussy. And I'm like, no, be like I'll tell you guys it's not okay to talk to me like that. So very half hearted. And I didn't really think anything of it. But then what that scene was playing, man, it was almost as if I started obsessing about it. So this is a solution. If I do this, everybody leave me alone.
If I do this and the police respond, they'll kill me and everything will be better. And so all through the weekend, I start telling my friends, my friends start telling people we had a bonfire on Saturday night and we told everybody at the bonfire like, hey, don't go to school for the money and you're going to do this. And the vast majority of my peers were like, if you do do it, shoot this person or go to this hallway and shoot these people.
And I remember thinking, nobody cares. Why is it that nobody told me this is a terrible idea and that and that they should tell me? So the weekend goes by. Monday morning I wake up. It was weird that I remember when I woke up, but I'm going to get it. It started. And so I go through the whole morning routine. A few minutes ago, my friend came over. I left a suicide note on top of the stereo and it was lyrics to the song.
In the end, no matter what I do, it doesn't matter, because at the end of the matter is think all that I can tell myself as I tried so hard man in my life never got any better. And so I put this on my backpack and my buddy would go to school or hanging out with his friends outside of school. And all these people know about it, right? They're like, oh, where are you going to do this right now?
And I'm like one of my buddies halfheartedly passing out. Nobody says anything, never told me not to do it. And he said, maybe you should reconsider. And I'm like, how he didn't. Nobody cares. This is a very serious thing about having. Right. And nobody does that. It was just really surreal to me. And so when I walk onto the campus with my friend, I go to the boys bathroom and I sit in the.
I get to hold the pistol in my mouth and I'm thinking, if I can find a pain free way to kill myself, that's what I want to do. I don't want to go through this. I don't wanna hurt anybody, but I don't want to hurt anymore either. The last eight months of my life has been nothing, the pain. So I don't want my life back on earth and example. And so I threw a blanket statement over the entire school.
It was just a generalization. I was like, no, you know, it they made me hurt when I was going to the school. So it's OK for me to hurt them. I feel like nothing when I was here. So it's OK for me to make them feel like nothing. I'm going to matter. And that's a I remember I opened up the restroom door and people I knew were standing in front of me. So I shut the door and I sat back and I remember thinking, if I don't do this, the boy is going to get worse.
Everybody knows about it. If I don't do things, the people are just going to keep picking on me like my life. Like my life isn't getting any better. Committing this crime and letting the shooting was somehow a solution to all the stuff that was going on to open the door. And at first I thought if I didn't die, my life would get better. I thought if I didn't die, my classmates would leave me alone. I could return to school as a sophomore and everybody would just leave me be.
You had no idea the consequences would be much greater than that, right?
I and you had said the authorities reported that over 70 people knew you were going to do a school shooting on Monday.
That is true. Yeah. Between like the bonfires and my buddy fanfare in A&E.
You had no real targets when you opened fire. You were shooting the whole school. Everybody in the school was your target, right?
Yeah, it was a complete blanket statement. You really had nothing to do with going out with me. They were still there and it was completely unfair. What's that like when you start shooting? I think the best way to describe it is no. I just goal in mind of proving to my classmates that I should have been left alone and thinking that this was the means to that end. If I commit this crime, then somehow going to be left alone.
Either way, if the cops come in right now and they kill me, I'm going to have relief from from the bullying. Like if I go through with this that people are going to leave me alone. What is what I thought and I'm going to get relief for it.
If you were released today, would you kill again? No, no, no, like I know today is dedicated to being a person that shows a man through the words and their actions. Serial killers are not remorseful at all, they they laugh when I ask them if they remorseful. Are you remorseful? Absolutely. And it's my responsibility to learn about the ripple effect and the harm that I try to use the names of the people that I harmed because it's not lost on me, the devastation that I caused them and their families or my community like I am so, so sorry for the harm that I caused.
The well, listen, we'll continue to partner to try to stop more of these incidents. And thanks so much for taking the time that I stay in touch.
We talked about some of the causes of teen murder in this episode. But I want to talk about some of the warning signs that parents can be aware of the first three or cruelty to animals, fire starting and wetting the bed as a teenager, killing and torturing animals is the worst thing a child can do. Jeffrey Dahmer, BTK and others have started out by killing animals, kids that make violent drawings and art class. That's a warning sign. Students that pose with weapons on social media, someone making threats of murder, someone who's obsessed with deadly weapons, guns, bombs, knives, people who are obsessed with violent entertainment, violent pornography are all warning signs.
Teen killers and school shooters don't kill without a trigger. A trigger could be being expelled or suspended from school arrested.
A dispute with parents over cell phones or curfew being bullied at school. Parents saying you can't date that person just because your child displays these signs doesn't mean that he or she is going to be a killer. But it is a warning sign so that you can at least try to get them help before it's too late.
This episode was very difficult subject matter for all of us on this podcast, we are not fans of true crime. We are here to educate our audience so that we can do our best to stop these horrific acts from happening again. If you know of or have a reason to believe someone is planning on committing a crime like Charles Andy Williams or Joshua Cooke, do not hesitate to call the police. You can always remain anonymous and you may save innocent lives.
We want to dedicate this episode to all the innocent children that have lost their lives at the hands of school shooters. We will never forget the pain that those families have experienced. And we are going to do our best to stop as many of these crimes as possible.
This podcast is produced by Gridding Dog Entertainment and Audio Up if you want an up close and personal experience with serial killers that you can't get anywhere else. Visit My Friends are Monsters Fan Club Dotcom and join my fan club.
What if I told you that UFOs, haunted houses and even inexplicable magic tricks are all caused by the same creature? And what if I told you these powerful and ancient beings are meant to be feared? The Hidden Gem, a new podcast from My Heart Radio and Aaron Menck is grim and mild, explores the legends of these ancient and terrifying creatures. Join me, Rabia Chaudry, as we step into the world of the hidden jinn. Listen to the hidden jinn on Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.