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Hey, folks, my name is Scott Lipps, I'm a part time CEO of a fashion agency and part time drama with Courtney Love. I've been in the fashion and music space for many years, and I'm here to bring you some insightful interviews into some of the best pop culture personalities. We've had everyone from Anthony Kiedis from the Red Hot Chili Peppers, the day Shati to Doug Cameron tune in and catch up with Lip-service to listen to LipService on the radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.


Where the bodies are buried contains graphic depictions of violence that some listeners may find disturbing discretion is advised. Forget what you've heard about serial killers. Forget the movies, podcasts and stories in the media of infamous psychopaths like Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy.


I'm going to show you what exists beyond all of that. And you will hear from the source, the killers themselves. This is where the bodies are buried and.


My name is Phil Chalmers. For over 35 years, I've dedicated my life to communicating with and studying hundreds of serial killers, teen killers, school shooters and mass murderers, I help solve cold cases, locate bodies and bring closure to hurting families of the victim. Joining me is my wife, Wendy, and my producers, Adam and Samantha. Samantha, you ready? Yep. All right. We're rolling. One, two. All right.


We are about to touch on a very sensitive and controversial subject, teen killers in school shooters. This week, we're going to be speaking to two killers who committed their crimes when they were just teenagers, when he was just 15 years old. Charles Andrew Williams Jr. was responsible for a school shooting at Santana High School back in 2001. And Joshua Cooke, who is referred to as the Matrix killer, was responsible for the killing of both his parents in 2002.


Josh claims his addiction to violent video games in the movie The Matrix, combined with being bullied and abused, led him to murdering his parents in cold blood. He says that if that never happened, he may have become a serial killer in the making.


I started dealing with teen killers in school shooters when I was 20 years old. I interviewed over 200 teen killers and school shooters to understand the causes of teen murder. The warning signs that we all should be looking for and the triggers that creating killers.


First, we start with Joshua Cooke, the Matrix killer.


Nineteen year old Joshua Cooke brutally gunned down his parents. His motives are currently unknown, but our sources tell us his addictions to violent video games, movies and music may have played a part. Joshua Cooke, who fatally shot his adoptive parents inside their suburban home, was sentenced to 40 years in prison. The case gathered considerable attention when defense lawyers filed a motion claiming Cooke believed he was living in the virtual reality of the science fiction film The Matrix. Cook later entered a guilty plea when lawyers felt their case wouldn't hold up.


The beginning of the episode will be an interview with Joshua Cook, The Matrix killer. At times it will be difficult to understand him because of the prison phone.


This call is from an inmate in the Virginia Department of Corrections. Hey, Josh, how are you doing? Why are you in prison right now?


I mean, because for 17 years now I've been here because I killed my mom and my dad with a shotgun after 2003. I was 19 years old at the time. I was a ticking time bomb. Growing up as a teen, due to a few underlying factors, I was able to abuse the school I was before. The recession was clearly followed by those four years of abuse against me, my sisters, like a. etc.. My father was emotionally abusive to both, well, especially my mother.


I often fantasized about killing a 12 year old. Also, I was I was heavily impacted by my severe addiction to video games and video like The Matrix. I was basically raised on LSD. I raised myself and lost things. But still, I got depressed being adopted as I was six months after I got to the family. The abuse started from my mother, who refuses to focus on remembering things because we just hated her from the get go and get out of love for her.


I don't know what her problem was. He was a warrior for her. I think that whatever was going on, she was letting us know. So here at 12 years old, I need to talk to my sister and I tried with my house, to my sisters, my biological sisters. And I kind of feel like we're like this. You have to do this to us. And so that's where we initially started.


Were you inspired by violent video games, violent music or anything like that?


Yeah, absolutely. I was actually listening to a father chanting for cold body with the bodies of the of the actual act. At the time, I was actually killing my parents. I heard the news and commentary on fear, you know, so I wasn't going to do things. I was very much hooked on some these Fordlandia. Were you inspired by the Matrix movie? Yeah, absolutely. Basically, I was obsessed with The Matrix movie. I watched it so many times that I literally hundreds of people watched it emotional.


I was taking on the character in a sort of, you know, if you remember the protagonist of the movie, to get to the point, I felt like I was losing my mind. And if I reported the information for the real reason, I could just escape the real world by becoming beyond myself, being, you know, I could become, you know, which, by the way, instead of to the police, was for all some great clues.


I can't deal with the movie on the day I have been wanting to interview those people I get for committing a crime was to get my life sized poster out of my life.


Let's talk about bullying. I mean, this is a major problem that we see in schools all around the world. Can someone really be pushed and bullied to the point of murder?


Bullying is a major problem. It is the number one cause of school shootings. I can relate to kids who have been bullied. I experience a little bit grown up myself, and we see now kids will bring guns to school, get revenge on bullies with violence, bloodshed and murder.


I heard many times that kids behavior is due to violent games, music, movies. Is that really a factor? I think it's a major issue that nobody really knows the truth to.


It's a very small piece of the puzzle, but it is a piece of the puzzle. You know, I'm not one to say violent video games cause kids to kill. I don't believe that. It's just one of the factors. When I was growing up, we did not blow people's brains out all day long playing video games. So it's a different era we live in. And we're seeing the effects of this, I believe, especially kids that are younger that are playing these video games.


Josh? All right, let's walk through your crime.


You were on the. I would hope that it would, because of all the good things we're doing as far as the Court of Appeals to get it down to the basement and I want to go wash the dishes.


But this is just what I just said the other day. But the clothes that I could overcome, the damage of that by my talking shop, I went downstairs, I got down to the bathroom. We had to do with the. You know, there's politicians to know what you no other country that have. My father was sitting on the other side of the basement under a table on top, and I had the full body fall on my this whole part.


I want to be clear that this is on the top of the case. It's very peaceful. And what was interesting about reading out of the first things that he insisted on going forward and doing a lot of damage, he said we wanted to work and told the truth. I wanted to put the phone to call the police. And I got the call from the refrigerator and for their own police.


How long did you plan this?


Last week, I guess, because I didn't even know. All I knew was I was on the verge of the explosion involved in it. My parents were probably going to be on the refusal of that already. And it was just like a involved type of thing when I to the contradiction before I committed the crime from a sporting goods store.


Did you have any warning signs, anything people should have seen here? People need to pay attention. And I just like to call you. I had a fascination with of high school shootings because I was and I wanted to emulate them, you know, like the Columbine shooters. They were like gods in regards to Korea. They were my heroes because they were like my fellow bullies, all it. And so I felt like I was one of them. And I used to dream about going into the school.


What was like to have put on, like, you and just like the Columbine shooting, the whole school.


But when it comes to my parents, basically, I just I say this is kind of hard to talk about sometimes not, oh, I'm sorry to say, you know, got a lot of people have a great deal that goes by, I think, about what I did, what my current company is majoring in. And I was kind of an issue on my face will be held up for sure. But they'll be like they'll be like in a piece that the proposal, things like somebody put that together, they can actually look at who this give you.


This is just really hard to listen to. I have mixed feelings. I mean, I feel terrible that a child has to go through all of this. But then again, a killer is a killer. There were a lot of details.


He didn't talk about this interview where his parents were begging for their lives. The father was actually on the phone with his sister. She heard this all happen. It's a multiple cause crime.


So we can't just say if you play violent video games, you're going to be a school shooter or if you come from poverty or you come from a dysfunctional home.


In my opinion, it takes about three to six causes to create a teen killer when you put enough of these causes together, dysfunctional home abuse, violent video games, bullying, substance abuse, you start stacking all these things up, it's eventually going to explode. And that's what you see with Josh Cooke. Josh Cooke is adopted. He's being abused. He's in a violent entertainment. He's being bullied, he's suicidal. And it's just one thing after another.


And this is what we see in these cases where Josh Cooke can no longer deal with all these issues. And he explodes. He goes up in his room, looks at his poster, puts on his headphones, listens to his violent music. He had been playing violent video games, watching a violent movie, loads up his shotgun, walks downstairs and highlights his own parents. And when he was done, he grabbed a Coke, sat on the front porch and called the police.


Our next call will be with Charles Andy Williams, Santana, California, school shooter who's responsible for shooting 15 of his fellow students. We will also be talking to Jack Thompson, an expert on video game violence and.


Sorry. Hi, my name is Zach Selwin, you may remember me as a host from ESPN attacking the show or even immortalized that competitive taxidermy show on AMC, we lasted one episode anyway. I like spoofing the news three times a week. I'm bringing you the relist. Fake news of the day and political news. President Trump broke his own record. Do you think Hillary would have been any better with one thousand two hundred and thirty nine awkward Adderall? Sniffles last night during his speech to the American public.


My fellow Americans, my voice is just so sexy, isn't it? Big news.


The city of San Francisco just announced that they are giving free drugs and alcohol to the homeless who are quarantining in hotels. In related news. I'm moving to San Francisco. It's the Saturday Night Live news desk.


But in an audible format, listen to the audio up news network on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts up.


We're talking about a really tough subject on this episode of teen violence and school shootings. I've spent a lot of time researching this subject. We will talk to Jack Thompson, an expert on video game violence. And lastly, we'll be interviewing Charles Andy Williams, who was responsible for a school shooting at Santana High School at the age of 15. We are joined by an expert on video game violence, Jack Thompson. You're an activist. You're an expert on violent video games.


What is your take on the connection between violent video games and real life violence?


Well, there are basically three proofs that there is a causal nexus, three categories of proof. One is the American Psychological Association, as well as others, has repeatedly found that there's a linkage as to one thing causing another between violent video game play and teen aggression. Another category of proof comes out of Indiana University, Harvard, with MRI studies that show that violent video games actually alter the structures of teenage brains. And the MRI is proved that the violent content impacts both the cognitive control centers of the brain and also the emotion and violence control portions of the brain.


The Marjory Stoneman Douglas shooting by Nicholas Cruz, in which this teenager killed 17, injured 17 more. There is evidence of his video game played up to 18 hours a day and his games of choice for Call of Duty and Grand Theft Auto.


Jack, what do you say to people that say, you know, I've played video games my whole life and I've never killed anybody?


Not everyone who smokes gets lung cancer, but nobody would seriously suggest that smoking doesn't cause lung cancer in some people. So what we know is that violent video games make everyone who plays them more susceptible to violent behavior, because if you put violent garbage, then you are more likely to get violent or at least more aggressive behavior out. What could we do to protect children from this form of media?


Well, Phyllis, you know, I've been at this a long time, well over a decade. And the reality is there is a law, the truth in advertising laws that are already on the books. And here's how it would work. The video game industry, age race games based upon content and most notably upon violence. What we know is they routinely sell despite promises that they won't mature rated video games to kids under the age of 17, that they do it in big box stores.


They do it more easily through Internet sales. For example, go to Grand Theft Auto. Any of the offerings of that franchise you can without having your age verified or even asked yet that game. So here's the industry saying I will never knowingly sell and age restricted games to anyone under that age, when in fact they do. And now we have digital direct downloads to gaming platforms like PlayStation and Xbox with no age verification whatsoever. That's fraudulent and deceptive trade practice.


So we don't need a new law. We simply need the willingness of people at the federal and state governmental levels to enforce those laws that are on the books.


Tell us about some of the kids that you know who carried out some of these crimes and they were big, avid gamers.


Sure. I've met Joshua, killed both his parents and he was an obsessive watcher of the Matrix and also player of the Grand Theft Auto Games, most notably as to my experience, I met on death row with Devin Thompson, no relation, who literally trained on Grand Theft Auto to kill three cops. It's heartbreaking to meet these kids, but for the very videogame consumption would not have done what they did. One of the unintended consequences, but benefits of the pandemic is that these teenagers who are for six months and doing nothing but playing violent video games and therefore predisposed to do the things that we've been talking about here are thankfully not in school.


I can't imagine what's going to happen once we go back to real instruction involving kids who played on these games for months and months and months. And there's a heightened likelihood of more school shootings because of that.


Wow. We appreciate what you do. Keep fighting the fight. Thanks for joining us. Thank you for opening. Now we talk about every parent across the country's biggest fear, a school shooting, Charles Andrew Williams woke up one morning with the intent to kill as many people as possible. He recounts that day and the eight months leading up to it, including bullying and being sexually abused. But nothing will ever justify killing two young students and injuring 15 others.


This call is from the correction facility and may be subject to monitoring and recording.


Your real name is Charles Williams, but you go by Andy. Why are you in prison? I'm afraid.


Because on March 5th, 2001, I stole my dad's pistol and I went to my high school and shot 15 of my classmates. I murdered Brian Zikr and Randy Gordon and attempted to murder Scott Marshall, Travis, Melissa McCarthy, Trevor Edwards remonstrate another. Heather is very different. Just interest in that. Matthew Microlevel to Macy's and Peter Lewis.


That day you killed how many people secretly recorded?


What was your sentence and what is it today?


Originally it was 50 years, so I plead guilty. When I was 16. I wanted to take responsibility and be able to sell a sense to 50 years to life. And then and hours and 13, California amended some of their juvenile justice laws. Because I was 15 when I committed the crime, my sentence was reduced to 25 years to life.


When did you enter the prison system? Committed the crime in 2001, when I was 15. I was sentenced in August of 2002 and then two weeks later was delivered to the California Department of Corrections. And I was 15 and entered an adult prison, 16 years old.


They sent you to an adult prison. How much did you weigh back then? What I committed the crime, I was about five to eight pounds.


So you entered the prison system, which is California, which is one of the worst at 130 pounds at 16 years ago, was that is hard, as tough as it sounds nationally and like that at the time, I had this really fatalistic attitude and thought I needed to punish myself.


And so I really felt like all the bad stuff that was happening to me was deserve or my fault.


So did you have to fight? Did you deal with sexual attacks?


I was never, like, physically sexually assaulted. But people make comments all the time, just like being young. My first week in prison. Grown men are showing me the knives in my butt to not get caught with them from officers. It was a very uncomfortable situation.


And you sit here now looking at a possible release from prison in the next four or five years, is that correct?


About that? Yeah. Yes, sir.


And if you are released from prison, where will you go and what will you do?


I have several options. It's only because of mercy that I don't deserve and that I don't have come. And I have family in the San Bernardino County area based on my vocational training that I've gotten certified in construction technology. I've gotten college degrees. I recently got certified as a drug and alcohol counselor.


Were you bullied? And if you were, explain how were you bullied as a kid?


It was just me and my dad and he was discharged from the army. Like we bounced around a lot when I was a kid. So I was just constantly moving, constantly having to make friends and then leaving my friends and then gone to another school and then leaving that school and going to another school. And so I had a little bit of stability from the time I was 13. And then we moved again. By the time we ended up in L.A., I had developed this four million personality right where it was.


Whoever I was with, that's the person I was. I had no sense of self. I had no identity just because I had no idea who I was. I had this really need for acceptance. I just really need people to like me because I hated changed. I hated being by myself. I was constantly alone because I was always moving. And I was really difficult for me to get friends to move to San Diego. And immediately I get drawn to the kids that are using drugs and drinking because I was part of my social circle.


It's the way rougher crowd than I was used to get passed down. I was getting called names and I was 298 pounds. I had an accent. I would get beat up for that stuff all the time and progressed from like name calling to getting fucked in the face. And people were like, oh, we're sorry. Like we said, I'm not able to defend myself against this. I don't want to leave these guys because these are my only friends and I want to be one myself.


And this weird catch 22, I was relying on drugs and alcohol to numb the pain. And these guys were my connections for the drug and alcohol. But a lot of times they were the first from the pain. They were the cure and cause of the discussion that I was going through at fourteen. Right. And I couldn't tell my dad. It was just me and him. And he was constantly at work. My mom, I was here every now and then when I was with her, I tried to be this bubbly, upbeat kid that I didn't really want to drop none of my junk, her first step.


So it was on me that internalize all the stuff people would call me names, faggy bitch, you pussy, you coward. I don't want to be losing. But then I started calling myself that need to fuck me in the face like I must be a bit of am I doing something about it that's I'm hearing it from them. But I'm also get this internal dialogue with myself and a progressive. I always wear the same hooded sweatshirt and people with their little cigarettes in it.


I would go to lunch and people would put salad dressing and stuff on my head. I got pushed into a pool one time in October if it was really cold out there, fully clothed. And every time I came to the they would grab else and it was funny. And so they were standing with people. So like in the middle of this pool for what felt like hours, I'm sure it was that long, but it felt like forever and ever I was having a good time except for me, like I'm freezing and bleeding.


And I got sprayed with lighter fluid and set on fire. And it's like it was this progression stuff. And my belief system at the time was, man, I must not be important. Nobody likes me. I don't matter if I complain to these guys. And this is going to call me more names. If I say anything to a school administrator, there hasn't been my experience. I don't know what that looks like. So the fourteen year old I'm catastrophizing and thinking like, oh, they're going to take these kids anyway.


I was so completely lost at the time. Wow. I like zero direction my life. These are killers, so I'm not here to say we should feel sorry for them, they committed murder. The sad part about these kids is their brain is not fully developed until their mid 20s. These kids are making adult decisions at the age of 13, 15, 16 years old. The consequences for making these adult decisions are lifelong. Some of them will never, ever be released from prison.


This is a difficult subject. We have seen so many of these kinds of shootings all across the country over the last 30 years. Phil, can you talk to us about what you think the steps are to stop these horrible acts from happening again and again?


I've developed 13 causes of why kids kill, and in my opinion, teen murder and school shootings is a multiple cause crime. It takes, in my opinion, three to six causes to create a teen killer. Examples are you come from a dysfunctional home. You have no father. You're involved in drugs and alcohol. You're obsessed with violent video games and violent media. You're obsessed with deadly weapons. You're involved in gang activity, suicidal. And it goes like that for about 13 causes.


It takes three to six of those to create a teen killer. Sometimes you only get one warning sign. For example, the Parkland, Florida killer tweeted that he wanted to be a professional school shooter. The warning signs are out there. If we know what we're looking for, we should be able to intercept these kids before they kill and get them help.


So you have a 15 year old brain, you're being bullied, punched, salad dressing poured in your head, you're set on fire, you're they try to drown you in the pool. Your parents are divorced. You live with your dad, you're experimenting with drugs and alcohol, and your life is a mess. How do you go from there, Andy, to saying, I think I'm going to do a school shooting?


So all this stuff has gone on. There's abuse from one of the adults. My best friend's stepdad is a business woman.


Your friend's stepdad is sexually abusing you, right?


Yeah. I didn't get as bad as my stepdad was, but all the bullying has gone off of my peers. And then this guy is very like the little group of 14 or 15 year old kids, alcohol and cigarettes and making us kids. It was very uncomfortable. So on February 8th, my birthday, one of my best friends from my problems end up getting killed and the first I've ever experienced in my life. Right now, I'm really confused.


It happened on my birthday. And so I go to my peer group and I'm like, Hey, guys, I, I'm a little bit longer right now. Like, my friend was just killed and they laughed at me. And I remember I was crying in my friend bedroom like, oh, what did you bring in here? And I'm like, holy smokes. Nobody cares about me because my friend only cares about is the fact that I was just the paper I had planned for a month.


Nobody really cares about me. So I started advocating suicide, that this is my way out. My life will be better if I'm no longer in it. This is it. I'm going to kill myself and I've got to figure out a way to do it. I admit skipping school and back in the day with answering machines. Right. And so I wouldn't go to school and then the school would call my parents. I would go home before my dad got home.


And I read the message. But he ended up getting off work one day early. So when he got home, there was like, hey, and he hasn't been here in days. What's going on in your book? And so my dad takes upward, drives me to school on March 2nd, and has been out on the guidance counselor to say, look, man, my boy's got a bunch of bruises on them. I can't explain when my boy isn't with me, he's with you guys.


You guys are responsible for him and against countries like, look, I got 2000 staff and students here. We can't just watch one kid and I might shoot two. I do. I not do anything, but I take a step out and be brave. I was like, you know, I'm going to come clean. I might go see what's going on. Like he's a guidance counselor, even adult in authority. Maybe I'll get a reprieve. There's no working out for me.


Something's got to give. I'm getting beat up by everybody to suck. And the guy was like, look, my boys are going to be boys. You need to toughen up. We're going to make the right school. You got to toughen up our if you don't care about you, nobody cares about me. They don't care about friends. They care about me. I don't matter to any of these people. Nobody cares. And that's all that those words are all they've going on my head, man, they'll be.


So I go to my drama class and I was a terrible student and perhaps I didn't do my homework cuz my. And here and here you're no good. This was so stupid. Embarrassing in front of the entire class. I'm like a terrible day like no over. I'm embarrassed and my teacher called me leaving and I believe all the names to be true. So we go to lunch and I'm all fired up and I'm like, you know, the guys on Monday morning when I come back to school, I'm going to shoot my drama teacher.


You have one minute remaining. Go back, OK? Teen killers and school shooters don't kill without a trigger being arrested, being expelled, being dumped by their girlfriend. These are the kind of triggers that cause kids to become killers.


It is tough to listen to this, to how poorly Charles is treated leading up to these murders. But I got to know, getting to the point where you actually want to kill people, I just I don't understand. There's a disconnect there. This guy still sounds like a kid.


We are not condoning violence and we are not giving Andy an excuse for what he did. But we know that the human brain is not fully developed, at least until the early 20s. And most experts say mid 20s. Charles Andy Williams actually thought two things would happen that day when he took his father's revolver to school and he was going to die either at his own hands or the hands of police or number two, he thought that when he carried out this violent crime, he would be back in school next year with the respect of his fellow students.


We're going to finish up our conversation with Charles Andy Williams as he walks us through his violent school shooting that changed his life forever, as well as the lives of his fellow students.


Sorry. Hi, I'm Gengel Jared, I created a podcast called Occupational Therapy with my friends at NYU School of the Arts as an artist in residence in my former occupation, I was the biggest jingle writer of all time. Now I'm looking for a new job, speaking to every entrepreneur that I can find so I can find out what it's like to transition from one career to another. This podcast is a virtual masterclass for anyone looking to expand their knowledge of how to be an entrepreneur in the media space.


In it, I speak with many multi hyphenate personalities that span sports, television, music and journalism. Every single person in this podcast is a disruptor and innovator and have left a major dent in their part of the universe. I'm Jared Goosestep and this is occupational therapy. Listen on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. We're talking to Charles Andrew Williams. So far, he's told us about what factors he feels led him to commit his terrible crimes, and soon he will be telling us about that horrible day, March 5th, 2001, when two innocent children lost their lives at Santana High School.


But first, we are speaking with Dr. Beth Kriol, a certified grief counselor specializing in PTSD, death and loss. She is giving her expert opinion on our interview with school shooter Charles Andy Williams. Hi there. Thank you for talking with me first. Give us your official title.


I'm a certified grief recovery specialist, which means that we deal with individuals that are getting over trauma and loss and we deal with death.


What was your impression after listening to Charles Andy Williams? The first thing that I thought was, wow, he really needs to talk. And then as the interview was going on, he was talking about how it was important for him to know all the victims names because this was a way for him to almost have a connection with them and their families and feel a certain sense of compassion as to what he did. I felt that his anxiety was really quite all over the place at 15, which are incredibly formidable years for both male and female children.


There was instability in his state of mind. He says. At one point, if I'm not mistaken, he said he had low self-esteem. He started off by answering questions and then he was almost vomiting information. To me, that's a sign of anxiety. I question what his life was like growing up. Did he live his whole life in this possibly depressed state because the average child that gets bullied is not turning into a school shooter? I always wonder when a mother is absent.


Individuals have a very difficult time when there has been neglect in early childhood, and I wondered about that neglect. He also spoke about his father and how his father was in the military. So they moved around a lot. So I question what his attachment was like to other people. Did he live his whole life in this possibly depressed state because the average child that gets bullied is not turning into a school shooter? We have to look at what their life was like.


And I'm not using this as an excuse. There's no excuse here for his behavior, but it's interesting to go back in time and see where something went wrong. I think at some point he felt neglected. Possibly this is why he was attached to the kids that were involved in drugs, bad behavior. This is the only attachment that he was familiar with. And so there was a false attachment there. Does this turn around and make somebody want to do some kind of a school shooting?


The answer is possibly. There's a theory called learned helplessness and learned helplessness is very interesting because a lot of times learned helplessness can turn into victimization. He learned in life to play a helpless role because time after time you've been introduced to trauma. So you have this feeling of woe is me. There's always going to be a shoe that's going to drop. It's always been bad in my life. So when somebody has a learned helplessness mentality, they see things always every time, everything.


Woe is me. He said this continuously throughout the interview. Nobody was listening to him. Nobody cared. Nobody bothered to find out how he felt. So I think that this really fed into the learned helplessness and therefore he's going to take out his victimization on other people.


What are your thoughts on bullying being one of the causes of bullying?


And if it started in the home and then he was bullied by friends is a very interesting comment. Those that get bullied, bullied and those that get hurt or hurt, he ended up doing the ultimate bullying, which is killing. And he also told people so he was preparing people. I mean, he told people, hey, I'm going to do this, which is a form of bullying in and of itself as well. It's questions like these. You want to ask yourself because then do we give birth to a school shooter and can we avoid this?


Thank you for your insights and for taking the time to talk to us. Let's hope someday we can stop this. No problem.


And good luck with this. Now for the rest of my interview with Charles Andy Williams, this call is from a correction facility and may be subject to monitoring and recording. Andy, tell us about that horrible day, March four, 2001. Yeah, I told my friends at lunch on Monday morning when I come back to school, I'm going to show my drama teacher like, I don't know, like a real cavalier and really put in zero intention. Whatever.


Andy, you're a big old bitch, but you're not going to do anything. You're big a pussy. And I'm like, no, I'll be like, I'll tell you guys it's not okay to talk to me like that. So very half hearted. And I didn't really think anything of it. But then what? That feels fine. I mean, it was almost as if I started obsessing about it. So this is a solution. If I do this, everybody leave me alone.


If I do this and the police respond, they'll kill me and everything will be better. And so all through the weekend, I start telling my friends, my friends start telling people we had a bonfire on Saturday night and we told everybody at the bonfire like, hey, don't go to school for the money and you're going to do this. And the vast majority of my peers were like, if you do do shoot this person or go to this hallway and shoot these people.


And I remember thinking, nobody cares. Why is it that nobody told me this is a terrible idea and that and that they should tell me? So the weekend goes by. Monday morning I wake up. It was weird that I remember when I woke up, but I'm going to get it. It started. And so I go through the whole morning routine. A few minutes ago, my friend came over. I left a suicide note on top of the stereo and it was lyrics to the song.


In the end, no matter what I do, it doesn't matter, because at the end of the matter is all that I kept tell myself as I tried so hard man in my life never got any better. And so I put this on my backpack and my body would go to school or hanging out with these friends outside of school. And all these people know about it, right? They're like, oh, where are you going to do this right now?


And I'm like one of my buddies halfheartedly passing out. Nobody says anything, never told me not to do it, and nobody said maybe you should reconsider. And I'm like, Heidi, nobody cares. This is a very serious thing about having. Right. And nobody that it was just really surreal to me. And so when I walked onto the campus with my friend, I go to the boy's bedroom and I sit in the store. I get to hold the pistol in my mouth.


And I'm thinking, if I can find a pain free way to kill myself, that's what I want to do. I don't want to go through this. I don't want to hurt anybody, but I don't want to hurt anymore either. The last eight months of my life has been nothing but pain. So I don't want my life back on Earth, for example. And so I threw a blanket statement over the entire school. It was just a generalization.


I was like, no, you know, it they made me hurt when I was going to the school. So it's OK for me to hurt them. I feel like nothing when I was here. So it's OK for me to make them feel like nothing. I'm going to matter. Man, that's a I remember I opened up the restroom door and people I knew were standing in front of me. So I shut the door and I said, back up.


And I remember thinking, if I don't do this, the boy is going to get worse. Everybody knows about it. If I don't do this, the people are just going to keep picking on me like my life. Like my life isn't getting any better. Committing this crime, committing the shooting was somehow a solution to all the stuff that was going on with me to open the door. And at first I thought if I didn't die, my life would get better.


I thought if I didn't die, my classmates would leave me alone. I can return to school as a sophomore and everybody was just leaving.


Maybe you had no idea the consequences would be much greater than that, right?


I didn't think you had said the authorities reported that over 70 people knew you were going to do a school shooting on Monday.


That is true. Yeah. Between like the bonfires and from my buddy benefactor in Andy.


You had no real targets when you opened fire. You were shooting the whole school. Everybody in the school was your target, right?


Yeah, it was a complete blanket statement, you know, had nothing to do with going out with me. They were still there and it was completely unfair. What's that like when you start shooting? I think the best way to describe it is no. I just goal in mind of proving to my classmates that I should have been left alone and thinking that this was the means to that end. If I commit this crime, then somehow going to be left alone.


Either way, if the cops come in right now and they kill me, I'm going to have relief from from the bullying. Like if I go through with this that people are going to leave me alone is what I thought and I'm going to get relief for it.


If you were released today, would you kill again? No, no, no, like I know today is dedicated to being a person that shows a man through the words and their actions. Serial killers are not remorseful at all, they they laugh when I ask them if they remorseful. Are you remorseful? Absolutely. And it's my responsibility to learn about the ripple effect and the harm that I try to use the names of the people that I harmed because it's not lost on me, the devastation that I caused them and their families or my community like I am so, so sorry for the harm that caused.


And we'll listen and we'll continue to partner to try to stop more of these incidents. And thanks so much for taking the time that I stay in touch.


Yes, sir.


We've talked about some of the causes of teen murder in this episode. But I want to talk about some of the warning signs that parents can be aware of the first three or cruelty to animals, fire starting and wetting the bed as a teenager, killing and torturing animals is the worst thing a child can do. Jeffrey Dahmer, BTK and others have started out by killing animals, kids that make violent drawings and art class. That's a warning sign. Students that pose with weapons on social media, someone making threats of murder, someone who's obsessed with deadly weapons, guns, bombs, knives, people who are obsessed with violent entertainment, violent pornography are all warning signs.


Teen killers and school shooters don't kill without a trigger. A trigger could be being expelled or suspended from school arrested.


A dispute with parents over cell phones or curfew being bullied at school. Parents saying you can't date that person just because your child displays these signs doesn't mean that he or she is going to be a killer. But it is a warning sign so that you can at least try to get them help before it's too late.


This episode was very difficult subject matter for all of us on this podcast, we are not fans of true crime. We are here to educate our audience so that we can do our best to stop these horrific acts from happening again. If you know of or have a reason to believe someone is planning on committing a crime like Charles Andy Williams or Joshua Cooke, do not hesitate to call the police. You can always remain anonymous and you may save innocent lives.


We want to dedicate this episode to all the innocent children that have lost their lives at the hands of school shooters. We will never forget the pain that those families have experienced. And we are going to do our best to stop as many of these crimes as possible.


This podcast is produced by Gridding Dog Entertainment and Audio Up if you want an up close and personal experience with serial killers that you can't get anywhere else. Visit My Friends are Monsters Fan Club Dotcom and join my fan club.


Hi, I'm Gengel Jarrett. In my former occupation, I was the biggest jingle writer of all time. Now I'm looking for a new job, speaking to every entrepreneur that I can find so I can find out what it's like to transition from one career to another. All of this expert advice has become the bedrock for a podcast I'm calling Occupational Therapy. Listen on the I heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.