Hey, dear listeners, today's guest is Clea Duvall, who, you know, is an actor from A Million Things, including one of my very favorite shows, Veep. Most recently she directed the Hulu movie Happiest Season, which I just loved. I've met Clea a few times over the years and I've always been a big fan. After talking with Clea, I'm joined again by world renowned clinical sexologist, author and sex coach Dr Patty Britton, who shares her thoughts on commitment and, of course, sex.

As always, thank you so much for your kind reviews and telling your friends about our show. If you have a question or story to share, please visit our website at unqualified dotcom. One last note. This will be our last episode for 20/20. All of us at Unqualified wish you good health and happiness in the New Year. See you in January. Here's Claire.

Ladies and gentlemen, you are listening to Unqualified with their host unifiers. Hi. Hi, how are you? I'm good, thanks so much for doing this. Of course. Thank you for having me. I know. I really appreciate it. I was watching some of your other press interviews and noticing this background, which I just love. Oh, thank you. Do you like miniature things?

I do like little things. Yeah, I really do. I do, too. I grew up really short. I don't know if there's a correlation, but there's safety in miniature things to me. For a while I was building a murder mystery scene because I bought one of those miniature tents. This is so boring. No, I want to hear this.

Do you know if you go to like an area or a tent supply place? Yeah. How? They have little tents, the miniature tents of the big tent. Yeah. So I tracked one of those down on eBay and I had a family camping murder scene. That's awesome. I did the same thing with Barbies too.

I watched your movie last night. I loved it so much. Thank you. And my distant perception of you. I hope this isn't too forward as we get to know each other. I guess it sort of surprised me. I assume that people perceive me as maybe an extension of some of the characters I play, maybe a bit of a dingbat or a really bubbly personality, and maybe I am both of those things. But my distant perception of you, I think, is of a darker sensibility.

I mean, you're nodding. Is it too forward of me to sort of present this idea? I guess that it took me a little bit by surprise that this like joyous, heartfelt, very moving and very funny movie came from you.

Yeah, I hope that's not rude. No, not at all. Not at all. I mean, it's interesting because, you know, like we met such a long time ago. You remember that. Yeah. We were kids. I feel like I met you several times in like a short period of time, but I can't identify what those times were like. I just know that I had met you then and I never got an impression from you that you are like a dingbat or bubbly.

You were like so pleasant and warm. And I just remember thinking like, oh, that girl's really cool.

Thank you, Clea. I remember distinctly an intense audition evening for Carnival. Oh, yeah. And I don't know if you remember this. What year did you do that? But maybe it was like 2003.

Yeah, maybe it was. My timeline of that show is very weird because we did the pilot and then it was such a long time before we got picked up that I never am able to grasp exactly when everything happened for our listeners.

I think for me it was one of the few roles that I was auditioning for that was dramatic. I usually didn't get an opportunity and we had this intense audition. I feel like the evening lasted four and a half hours. Maybe it was only forty five minutes, but you and I were auditioning. I think there was one other actress. We were auditioning for the director and producers in an HBO and we were there for quite a long time.

And I remember distinctly thinking Kelly is going to get this is going to get this. I know she's going to get it and you did. But I also remember in the audition room, one of the producers said, can you just do this again? But with a lot more subtlety.

So I was like, oh, man, OK. I felt like I was being as subtle as I possibly could. But then there was that realization of, like, I think my face is just in general too active.

Well, I don't I feel like I have the opposite problem where people are like, can you do a little bit more?

Are you awake? But yeah, that is so wild. It was a very long, late night. I remember that because I remember there was like no one else in the building.

So clear. Can I ask you a little bit about directing? Yeah. I've never directed I think I would like to. It's a broad question and I wish I could narrow it down, but because I've never done it, this will be my approach. What departments proved to be valuable that you maybe underestimated? Who did you rely on? What surprised you about the process?

I mean, I relied on everyone, you know, so much. Every single department matters equally, you know, because if one is falling behind, then it affects everything else. But the departments that I spent the most time with, you know, that I feel like helped me think about filmmaking in a different way were my DP and my production designer. We became this unit, this very tight unit and my line producer slash executive producer and creative producer.

It was like the five of us really formed this team because we were on it for the longest. We worked together the most. My production designer actually married to each other. So, you know, the three of us would spend a lot of time before we even left to go into preproduction, just watching films for reference and talking about the movie and because. We were able to build the set of the house, like talking about that house and where the rooms were going to be based on the script, you never get that opportunity to tailor the set to the script.

It's always the other way around. So they were really kind of instrumental in helping establish the visual language and how important that was to know that early on, because it really made it so much easier to make decisions quickly throughout the process later on because we had such a solid foundation to use a term that I bristle against my fiancee.

Oh, I love the concept. It feels fancy in a weird way.

Yeah. Congratulations. Thank you.

He's a DP and he is always telling me that he believes that actors make the best directors. I have never been directed by an actor, so I don't have sort of that intimate performance relationship with a director necessarily. But I love the performances. Your cast is filled with brilliant actors and I love it that especially watching Kristen, there's a moment that I just love and I know you must love it, too, when she's sneaking around the house. Oh, yeah.

Her intensity and sincerity, she never relies on any kind of facial gimmickry. I know exactly what you mean. So every moment with her is steeped in sincerity, which makes, you know, what could have been a kind of a minor moment.

Her awkwardness and sort of fumbling. It really like struck my funny bone. And Mackenzie was incredible when casting. Did you have everybody in mind? I wonder if one of the bigger challenges when directing actors is making sure that they're following the storyline as you shoot in not a consecutive order?

You know, everybody was so prepared. And I think Mackenzie had the hardest job just in general, but also just in terms of like her tracking where she was at because it was the beginning of the movie. She is fully herself. And then as it goes on, she is regressing more and more and more until like the final moment towards the end, when she is fully back into her place of fear, her teenage self making that reopening, that wound, you know, but I mean, she was very good at tracking it herself.

And I felt like all of the actors really had the story. And our schedule was crazy because everybody was so busy and flying in and out like Allison and Aubrey and Mary Steenburgen, like they all started later. And Allison had to go places and Aubrey could only be there for the last 10 days. So it was really this, you know, shuffling around. But for the most part, we really shot a lot of the stuff in order as much as we could.

So it didn't feel difficult to track.

It was more keeping the tone of the movie, you know, because McKenzie and Kristen are such incredible actresses and they do mostly dramatic work. So it was really like finding the truth within the tone of a romantic comedy, which can be, you know, it operates in a different level. And if you're doing a drama, a scene can be like devastating and serious. And then in a romantic comedy, it's handled in a different way. So it was really just like keeping track of that to make sure that we are maintaining the tone.

Yeah. Is Christmas your favorite holiday? I mean, I really like Christmas time.

I like that there are decorations and lights and that things just feel different because growing up in Los Angeles, when it's just the same all the time, it's maddening. Like I know people who might be listening to this, who are living with their cars are covered in snow. They're probably like go to hell. But the monotony of just living in a place that never changes it drives me crazy. So any kind of weather, any kind of change in the environment, I really welcome.

So there is something about Christmas time that just feels different, you know, and I really do enjoy that. But I actually don't like Christmas Day because then it's over. I like the anticipation of all those things a lot more. But in terms of the traditions, I really like Thanksgiving. But it is such a complicated holiday because it's celebrating something that wasn't good in the relationship to that holiday is complicated. But I like getting together with friends and having a nice meal completely.

When I first moved to Los Angeles, it did feel timeless and I think it is reflective very much in like the community of Los Angeles, at least in the entertainment world, where it is like time just seems to have a different structure and people are terrified of age and all kinds of things. But I can understand, I think, any marker of time changing.

Yeah, I feel like a very much an old grumpy person when it comes to just the fuss of any holiday. But this year I'm actually feeling a little more Christmassy than normal. I don't know why that's nice.

I mean, why not enjoy it? Do you have a tree already? No, no. I think we're going to get one though. So can I ask you a series of questions? Of course. OK, what or who has influenced your career the most? Well, it's a big idea. It's a very big idea. In terms of who I feel like, it's not like there's been one person, I feel like it's been a collection of people along the way, it's almost like a relay race or something that I get to a certain point.

And then there's another person who's like, come on, here's this thing, you know?

But I mean, the person who has been the most consistent in my life just in terms of creatively encouraging me and helping me is my friend Rodrigo Garcia, who I actually met because he directed the pilot of Carnival and directed a bunch of episodes. And we've stayed really close ever since. And I think he's such an incredible writer and filmmaker. You know, he's read everything I've ever written and given me notes on my films.

And he's just so supportive of me. And he's really helped me on the filmmaking side a lot just in terms of, like, finding my feet. Yeah, he is definitely someone who I turn to often, but that evolves and it changes. Like the producer of this movie, Isaac Klausener, who works at Temple Hill.

He's become a collaborator of mine who I find very inspiring, very smart, who really pushes me and challenges me in a way that I really need, even though we've only been working together for the past four years.

He's someone who I want to continue down the road with my very brief encounter with him. He seemed incredibly brilliant and incredibly kind.

Yes, he has both of those things. He's like a real human being. He's solid. And I really don't know what I would do without him. I love that.

OK, I want to go back to some past issues. But first, if you could live anywhere in the world for a year, where would it be?

Man in northern California, like up around Inverness.

I don't know if I know where that is. It's near Point Reyes, near the water.

OK, I'm kind of wild and rugged, wild and rugged, but near water. Or maybe it's somewhere up in Oregon, somewhere on a coast. I don't like the beach and I don't like water, but I like to look at it.

I'm with you on that. What talent or ability would you most like to have?

Like, there's so many the violin. Do you play at all? No, not at all. I have no musical ability at all.

Clear. I bought a cello like back in April during like the time when you buy a cello, when you've been in your house for three weeks. Yeah. And I thought it was going to be really sexy. And I'm self-taught. It's not going great.

So I admire you for doing it, though. For wasting five hundred dollars. I mean, listen, how often do you play it?

I play it about once a month, OK? And by play, I think that's pretty generous.

Do you have anything, do you watch a YouTube video or something or you just go. I just sort of hack at it. Yeah.

You know, I saw that thing back and forth and then I put it in our bathroom.

OK, more questions. What character or role have you most enjoyed playing? If I was asked that question, I would break it into two different ideas, like the happiest I've been on a set and then the character I've played that I've reveled in getting the opportunity to play that character.

Yeah, I mean, in terms of a character I love to play. I really loved playing my character, but I'm a cheerleader, which was such a long time ago.

I have to see that movie again. It was such a great movie. It was a great movie. But I don't know.

I have this sense that there is a role that I haven't played yet that's going to be the one where I really feel like, oh, yeah, this is that role that everyone always talks about. You know, I feel like everybody has one that is like but maybe that was it. I also feel like there's something else out there.

Yeah, I did this indie called Smiley Face. We shot it, I think in twenty days for a million dollars, which was really exciting. I felt like very much a part of the process and my character was bizarre and stoned the whole time. I'd never had this feeling before. I would wake up early for my call and be so excited about my dialogue for the day. That's awesome. It felt pretty rare. I mean, we are fortunate to have our dream jobs and yet it feels like even with the perfect filming experience, you cannot be consistently elated.

Oh, that. Yeah, there's always the stuff.

Yeah, I was really happy on The Voice. That was probably the most fun I ever had.

Can I ask you about improv on the set? Yeah. So Allison Janney, she was a guest star and I've talked to Sam and Tim and Anna. They've all been on the podcast. I'm trying to get everybody from Veep, I think. But what was that like? Because Alison described it as you got the pages and then they were gone. Yeah.

So wait, will you tell me about that and how thrilling or nerve racking or both in the beginning?

Nerve racking, because, like, I'm definitely an actor who prepares like, I really know my lines inside and out. I am not good at cold reading. I can't learn that way. If I look at something, I just can't remember it.

I just can't do it. So it was really scary at first because also VEP was my favorite show when I got the part and I was just terrified all the time. I just didn't want to be the person who fucked up, you know that. Was like, in my mind, a perfect show, so I guess it was really just adrenaline and survival instincts just sort of overrode the nerves and I would just be able to do it and keep up, hopefully.

But everyone was so generous and so warm and it was such a wonderful environment to be in because it just felt like such a great community, you know, where there was so much support.

And it comes from the top. Julia is so incredible and such a great leader. That feeling, I'm sure you know what it to come on to a set where everyone has been working for a while. You show up and you're just like, OK, well, it's so scary. Yeah.

Like the foreign exchange student who just shows up in a family that's already operating and you're just like, is this OK? But they always really just made me feel at home and it was awesome.

But I'm not an improviser at all and I really just stuck to the script and there wasn't a ton of improv. The scripts are so well written and rewritten, often on set.

It's one of the best shows on television. Yeah. And whichever project you're in, you have a very strong screen presence. Always in dialogue isn't even necessary. I wish I could nail that concept like in my brain and articulate it well. But any time you're in frame, you're a strong magnetic presence. Your eye is drawn to you. How are you at accepting compliments?

I'm working on it because it used to be easier, I think, when I would podcast, because, you know, we would be sitting next to each other or whatever and now, like looking intently at somebody and then also being able to see my own face. Yeah, I don't know. It's yeah. All right. So what is a trait you dislike in others entitlement.

Yeah. What is a trait you dislike in yourself. Hmm. Hypocrisy. Can you elaborate on that?

I mean, I think that there are times when I am you know, I always come around to seeing it. But I think I sometimes and particularly in my personal relationships, the things that I am most affected by are the things that I have done.

But it's something I'm working on, definitely something I've improved where I really consciously of slow everything down. It's like if I took your water and you took my coffee and I'm like, you took my coffee, you took my coffee to slow it down, I'd be like, but I also took your water. So, you know, it's really doing that balance. But when I am not able to catch it, it's disappointing.

That kind of self critique and examination is pretty remarkable. I'm really doing the best I can.

So what is your favorite rainy day movie? I mean, there are three movies that I do. Three, of course. Yeah. Silence of the Lambs. Oh, good. All right. Beetlejuice and Groundhog Day. Those are great. Beetlejuice still.

It's a great movie. So it's still unnerves me, I think, because I said, I don't know, maybe when I was nine or 10 and it had that discordant element. Yeah, but it is a great movie. I love it. What qualities do you look for in a friend?

I think authenticity and sense of humor are really important.

I like that. On what occasion do you lie?

I'm sort of like compulsively honest, but usually when I say like, let's hang out or let's get a thing. And I'm like, this week is crazy. Let's check in next week. And generally it's something that I want to do. But I find myself sometimes like paralyzed by committing to do something. I have a really hard time, just like committing to something.

I feel the same way. What's your relationship with religion?

I'm not a religious person. I have some people in my life who are very religious and I see how much it benefits them. And so I definitely have a respect for it.

Yeah, a friend of mine just recently said that she really envies her religious friends because there's an ease to their spirituality that she feels like she can never have. I think it's an interesting idea.

I think that you can find and is to your own kind of spirituality that works for you, that has nothing to do with religion, though. Yeah.

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OK, what is your greatest extravagance, ordering food like nice restaurants, what would be your I don't know, are you a truffle lover to you like caviar?

Oh, I'm not quite that fancy. But there are some restaurants that are like there's a restaurant in Los Feliz called All Time that I love. Like, I just think the quality of their food is so good. And then there's one in Highland Park called Hippo and it's like that same thing. It's like a great steak or something like that. We're just like every so often it just feels like a nice thing to do.

Cleare I want to get back a little bit to directing. Do you remember what your hardest day was shooting and what particular challenges made it difficult.

I mean our whole schedule was so hard because we shot this movie so quickly for the size of this movie was kind of insane. But the hardest day was probably the day Candy Cane Lane. We shot there two days, but the first day in the very beginning of the movie when they're walking in there on the tour because we were supposed to shoot that movie later in the schedule, but we found out that it was going to rain. So we had to make this last minute decision to flip days and shoot that in our first week.

I think it was maybe our second or third day of filming. And I mean, you know, when you're like on set, it kind of takes a couple of days to really, like, get into the groove. And we were still getting into our group and our crew was awesome and our cast is awesome. But it was also still such a crazy thing for our art department to have to do and for our electricians to have to do. It was just suddenly having to do what was like technically the most challenging thing in our whole movie in terms of like manpower.

And we also didn't have a huge crew to do it. It's not like we could hire a whole different team to go do that stuff. It was like our people having to split off or work late. I think our gaffer worked twenty four hours or something crazy like that.

It was really everybody kind of like rolled up their sleeves and got in there and they did an incredible job. So that was a big challenge. And then getting there and getting all the background artists in their spots and managed.

And it was just a lot of moving parts to be dealing with unexpectedly. It was a very stressful night.

What was your least favorite part of directing and your most favorite part?

I mean, my favorite part is just all of it. But I think really building the team, building the team between the crew and the cast and all of us becoming this well oiled machine together, it really felt so satisfying to be able to walk into an environment where everybody was happy and everybody was happy to see everybody. It was such a warm set. It was really, really nice. And then my least favorite part, all the bad stuff kind of goes away.

I love it that you were. So I mean, I'm sure you've worked on a lot of miserable set. Yeah. As have I. Yeah. And I love it that your joy, your enthusiasm and your drive gave so much to your team. And I bet it was a blast to work because you feel it watching it too. Yeah.

Everyone had a lot of fun. It was really wonderful to see because even the challenges always pushed you to come up with a solution that is inevitably better than what you want to do anyway.

Did you enjoy the editing post-production process?

Oh, yeah, I loved that. Yeah, I love editing. It's so fun. It's writing. Editing is writing the whole I'm an all of you.

The whole journey feels incredibly intimidating because even though I've worked in this industry for a while, I feel like I know so little. I have not been paying attention. And it's humbling. I guess I bet you know more than you think.

You know, there's no way that you have been on as many sets as you have been on for as long as you've been on them without absorbing some of it without any absorbed nuclear.

Maybe the sponge is full.

No, I don't think so. I that if you got into that environment because you're also not alone doing it, you know, you have a team around you, you're all working towards a common goal. And it's also OK to not know things and it's OK to ask questions. I forget even the name of the meeting, but there were some meeting we were having early on with everybody I it on the schedule and I was just like, I don't even know what this means.

What am I supposed to do? We're supposed to do it. I'm leading this meeting. I have no clue what it is, what it's for, what am I going to do. And I just ask Jonathan McCoy, who is our executive producer, what is this thing? And he explained it to me. I was like, okay, great. Now I know that. Now I know what that is. I think as long as you're OK with not knowing things and asking the questions you need to ask to get the information you need, you'll be fine because everyone you're working with has done it a lot and they have done it a million times.

And they've worked with a lot of directors of varying skill levels.

So I bet you could do it.

Michael, my partner, he's worked with a lot of first time directors, but I bet after we talk that we'll talk about how so many first time directors, I suspect, are very hesitant to admit that they don't know what's going on anyway. So I think that hopefully if I ever get the opportunity to direct, I will be a question. Ask her and put my ego aside. Yeah, I would have no idea what's going on. OK, what haven't you taken the time to learn about?

I think the technical side of writing, you know, just there are so many books on writing and so many philosophies, and I'm so self taught, but I know there are so many things that I could learn.

But I've never been a person who reads a book and knows how to do something. I have to do it myself incorrectly and then figure out where I went wrong and go back and do it better. You know, that's how I learn, which takes a long time.

But you're probably going from a place of trusting your gut, and I really respect that idea of trusting your instinct. I was talking the other day about acting coaches and how I'm questioning my first initial idea. Then I sort of go down a spiral of self-doubt. So I understand that. OK, to whom would you most like to apologize and why?

This is a really tough question, because immediately when you said that, I knew exactly what the answer was and then do I give her the real answer?

Do I try to make Kohana clear whatever you prefer? It's a big one, though. Does it matter? Feelings are totally normal and human, and that's fine. I'm a human being. I mean, my mom probably I mean, not probably my mom. She passed away when I was 27 and I did have like a lot of anger and a lot of anger towards her and probably the darkness that you referred to earlier in the time where we would have been around each other.

It was very much in full effect. It was very hard on her. And I had so much anger but didn't know I was angry then and still now sometimes have a difficult time processing my emotions in real time. So then I just shut down because I don't know what else to do. And I put her through a lot and a lot of like punishing behavior and didn't have empathy for her. And I really wish that I had the opportunity to recognize that sooner and to apologize to her because she had certainly apologized to me for all the things that I was angry about.

But I never really let her, like, off the hook because I didn't even really understand until, well, after she was gone. I just didn't have the perspective that's really moving.

That's really moving. Oh, OK.

So moving on to the next question. When or where are you happiest?

I'm happiest with my partner in our house.

Well, then, OK, what qualities do you look for in a partner? Authenticity, sense of humor, the ability to grow and evolve. I love that clip. Do you collect anything? I do. I guess tiny stuff is something that I've always collected, but not actively. I also don't really publicize it because then all of a sudden everyone's giving you tiny stuff.

And I do have one friend who gives me tiny stuff often, but she only gets it if it's really special.

And I don't want to have like five hundred thousand tiny things because I do have quite a few. But I go through phases like I went through a phase of collecting globes and now we have too many globes. And then I'm like, what am I gonna do with all these globes? You know, and that's my cycle of obsessively collecting something and then being burdened by the things that I've collected.

I so get that. Do you have a mundane activity that you do that relaxes you?

I like folding laundry and listening to podcasts. That's good.

I like folding laundry, too. All right. Do you have a greatest regret?

I mean, probably the lady to my mom. That's the only thing I really regret. There is also I feel like I have a few regrets in the same category of not participating in something because I was like afraid of how someone else would feel about it when it was my own invention.

Yeah. Are you an adrenaline seeker? Do you get excitement out of an adrenaline rush?

I feel like I have no adrenaline. I really underreact to things like if I almost get into a car accident, I'm like, OK, well, that almost happened, but I rarely feel like a rush of adrenaline.

Do you have irrational fears?

Little sharks, obviously, but I think it's perfectly rational, the ocean. But again, I feel totally justified in my fear of those things. Like what about the ocean? That it's like gigantic and powerful.

And there are so many things living in it that are designed to live in it. And I am not.

But I think those are rational, irrational fears would be what, like being scared of like vampires or something.

Yeah. Or like flying or I mean, I'm afraid of flying. I'm really claustrophobic. So like an elevator at Comic-Con, that is fine with me.

But did you see that movie. What was it called. Was it the descent about the girls who go in the. Yes. And they're going through all the caves and stuff and squeezing their bodies through it like that is. Yeah. My nightmare. Yeah.

I'm with you on that. All right. If you were no longer acting or in the entertainment industry, how would you want to make a living?

I would want to be a chef, but I know that means I would have to start at the bottom level of the kitchen and then work your way up to it. That's what I would want to go do.

Do you cook a lot? Do you find comfort in it? Yeah, I do. What do you like to make Polynesia's my favorite thing to make. That sounds amazing. I think I'm great at it.

I don't get enough praise in my household for it, and that's fine. I still think it's good.

I'll give you praise untasted. It's amazing.

I don't know fish like I try to cook pretty healthy, but every so often I've gotten really good at making burgers, which are my favorite food. So that's really satisfying and everyone here really likes it.

So yes, I like that. What was your first love like? It was very innocent.

And then I really turned into an asshole. I just turned into a monster.

Do you mind talking about that or.

No, I mean, I was a teenager, so it was really just like thoughtless and inconsiderate.

Did you have more power in the relationship towards the end? Yeah, but I think I just got really full of myself. I just thought I was like hot shit. And I think it was also it was with a girl. And so it was my first sort of foray into that. I think the beginning was very tentative and very that sort of like coming of age, delicate, beautiful that then as I sort of got more and more comfortable with being gay.

And then I also thought she was my prom date and going to my prom with a girl and then everyone else to the prom was like, oh, like people started looking at me in this way and like that I was cool or something. So I started getting more attention from girls. And I think one more girl started to like me. I was just a jerk, just like look at all this attention I'm getting.

And like, I think I really didn't handle that very well. And then graduating high school and just meeting more queer people and getting attention from girls just I don't know.

I think it says a lot about your character that you can reflect upon that and recognize that you may have been hurtful. Oh, I definitely was. Have you been in touch with this person now? No. I think that shows a lot of personal strength, though, that you can talk about your first love like that. Have you attended any of your high school reunions?

No, I've never even been invited. I don't even know how you get invited to one. I guess you have to be on a mailing list or something, but I'm not.

Do you keep in touch with anybody from high school?

There's one girl or woman. I guess we're women now because we're in our forties who is like sort of in my orbit, but we're not super close. Yeah, I didn't keep in touch. There's one person that I keep in touch with, but we developed our friendship after high school. Hardly. But that was like my serving time. I just wanted to plow through that.

Yeah. All right. Clear. Please forgive me because I've rarely answered these questions for myself. OK, so for what historical figure would you start a fan club?

I don't know if I'm smart enough to answer that question. I love that answer.

Was there a book or a TV show or anything from your childhood that affected the way you look at the world?

It's funny because I feel so little connection to my childhood. I have a really hard time remembering it.

I mean, I feel like at that time in my life I was most affected by music. People like Courtney Love or Liz Phair, PJ Harvey, who are these women who were not these sort of like mainstream women that I was so used to seeing? And like I always felt so other, not just because I was gay, but because I also was not traditionally feminine and the way that seemed to be so valued.

So it really complicated my relationship with even being, you know, a girl because I felt powerful as a female person. But then on the other side of it was felt like I was being told that I was doing it wrong, which only got worse when I started acting.

But, you know, looking at women like that really kind of showed me that there are so many ways to be a woman and that femininity is not one thing and that I was OK. And being me and also Nancy McKeon on the facts of Life gave me that same feeling, too.

Yeah. Yeah. So was Rad. Joe Poland, the Czech. Nancy began. Yeah, she was awesome. Yeah.

OK, what was your living arrangement like when you first lived on your own?

I lived with my girlfriend in an apartment building that her grandparents owned in Los Angeles. In Los Angeles? Yeah. Have you had any jobs outside of acting? I worked in an office where I did like filing and administrative work. I was a button picker that was like this fashion company. And like the fashion designers whole thing was very late 80s, early 90s thing. The fashion designers whole thing was that they had different buttons, like no two buttons were the same on all of their garments.

So I would sit in a room full of buttons and push buttons in an envelope based on, like what the clothes were.

That sounds fun. Or was it one of those things that quickly becomes so mundane?

It's very mundane, and especially when you're like by yourself in a room eight hours a day. And I mean, I did that for a while and it was like over this one summer, the building that we worked in didn't have.

Ceilings, so you could hear everything going on in the office and the receptionist would play Karak all day, and it was the summer that that under the bridge, Red Hot Chili Peppers song came out and it would play all day long. Yes.

And I would just be by myself picking those buttons for like eight hours a day, five days a week, listening to that song.

And it really felt and now I hear it and it's actually quite triggering for me.

Yeah, it's triggering for me to clear. But I didn't have to pick out buttons, but there was like a five year period where it was just Red Hot Chili Peppers all the time. All the time.

Oh boy. And they're great like the kids say, no shade to them at all. But it was like a weird sort of a government experiment is what it felt like at a certain point where you just have to sit alone in a room, putting buttons in an envelope for eight hours. Listening to that one song is pretty bonkers.

And then I also worked at an Italian restaurant of Fab's that I loved. What did you do there? I worked in the takeout window where sometimes people would walk up, but mainly it was like taking phone orders for like deliveries and pickups. And I worked at Buzz Coffee on Sunset. That is now a Starbucks. I loved that job so much.

And then, I mean, I did like babysitting and stuff when I was little, but I had my first job when I was like 12 years old. So I worked a lot until I became an actor.

I reflect on some of the more mundane jobs I guess I've had.

And I think about how relaxing were.

I mean, that sounds kind of fucked up, not being a waitress that was not relaxing. But in terms of the stress in this industry feels monumental. It feels massive. It feels so much bigger than the day. Yeah. It feels like this fucking mountain that we continue to climb or have to hustle for or whatever it is because it feels like the stakes are high. I was a receptionist for a while, man. I was so relaxed and happy.

I really enjoyed it. I really liked the people I worked with. If I fucked up for the day, it would be like transferring an extension to somebody else. And it wasn't like, oh, I just blew a twenty thousand dollar shot.

Or I mean, what I liked about all those jobs is actually the same thing I like about making movies and TV shows. Is the community like if you can find a job where you have a community where you're all working towards a common goal and it's about the people, you know, and that's what I was really lucky to find. And all those jobs also was part of the reason I loved working at the Italian restaurant is because it was this family owned restaurant.

And even though one of the family members who for some reason hated me and would always yell at me and like, fire me. And then I would go to like the other family member and be like, am I really fired? And he'd be like, no, you're fine.

You know, it still felt like this community. And I think that's really rewarding, you know, no matter what you're doing.

I love that.

I want to ask you a little more about happy season. How did you come up with a style or look of the film?

We definitely had a plan going into it where we wanted us to establish our own visual language for the film.

How did you guys define that early on? I mean, it was really trying to tell the story through our shot selection, you know, where like Kristen shows up and she is the outsider, you know, and how framing her and with the blocking, placing her more on the outside of what's happening, you know, and then with like she and McKenzie, where they start off together and they're in each other's shots. And then as the movie goes on, they're like more and more separated.

So it's like just thinking about that, how we could in everything we are doing, whether it was like shot selection or like with the production designer, how can we always be telling the story I really loved?

And I cried that beautiful scene with Dan and Kristen outside. Yeah, it was incredibly moving and so beautifully delivered. I don't really have too many questions about that scene.

I just wanted to tell you that it was beautiful. Yeah. You they did such an incredible job and beautiful dialogue that you and Mary wrote, who's also fabulous. She's awesome. OK, what is the best or worst advice you've ever been given?

The best advice that I've been given is the first movie that I directed to just direct it because I didn't want to originally.

You didn't. I didn't want to direct it. Why not? Because I was too scared to act and direct. So then how did you plow through? I had an experience on a project that was just so not great and I had to take on a lot more than I normally do as an actor. And I was able to do that and still do my job as an actor. And it was also just so hard in so many ways. And I was like, well, if I can get through that, I can do this.

And what about the worst advice to stay closeted in my career? Really? Yeah. Somebody told you that? Oh, yeah. Fuck, I'm naive. Not just one person. At what age? And how did that affect you? I mean, I feel like it was multiple times throughout my career by agents, managers, agents, publicists, just random people, I mean, starting when I started.

When did you come out and did any of the things you had feared come true in terms of your relationship with the industry?

I came out when I was 16, but then in the industry, probably in my early thirties. But it's not like I ever held a press conference or anything. I just started like going places with my partner, allowing us to be photographed, if that was like happening organically and not switching pronouns. When I was talking about my life, I just stopped hiding. And no, nothing bad happened. Nothing happened.

Was the idea that you wouldn't be able to get heterosexual roles? I guess so.

Yeah. Yeah. That it would be the only thing about me and that it would affect the kind of jobs that I got when an agent or manager or a publicist would tell your friends or whatever.

That must have been kind of a physical sting. Right.

I think at the time I hadn't fully accepted that part of myself. So it was almost like, of course, they're right. I need to hide this because it's bad. It wasn't until I got a lot older that I was able to really grow to love that part of myself and see that it was nothing that I needed to be ashamed of or hide.

Do you look back at those people with a bitterness? I really believe that everything happens in your life the way it needs to and gets you to the place that you are in this moment. And I'm in a place right now in my life where I feel really just like my own self internally. Nothing to do with the outside, where I feel a calm, I feel a peace. I feel really genuinely happy. And I don't know if I would be able to have the perspective to even know that what I was experiencing was happiness.

If I hadn't been in a place that wasn't that. I think you have to experience good things and bad things, and it's what you do with the bad things and how you allow it to propel you forward or hold you back.

That's amazing. How would you like to be remembered as a good friend and a good partner? I love that. Clear.

Thank you so much for doing this podcast today. Of course. And I loved your movie. Thank you so much. And congratulations. And you're amazing. Thank you all.

So you know that I created Housebroken with Gabby and. Oh yeah. Fuck, I did know that. And you're so I love your little bunny is so great.

So funny. It was really fun. Things. Things. No I love them. Yeah. Cleare I forgot that. So glad you brought that up.

I love doing voice work. You're so good at it. Thanks. And truly I thank you for your time and for your amazing movie. I really loved it.

Thank you for watching it. Yeah. It's so fucking good. I don't cry very frequently and I also didn't want to lead with that like but it's a great movie. It's a classic. It's a beautiful love story. Thank you. So thank you Clea. And I hope you were one of the rest of your day. You too. Bye bye.

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So get started today at better h e l p dot com slash f a r. I talked to a therapist online and get help. Hey, everyone. World renowned clinical psychologist Dr. Patty Britton is back to share her knowledge and experience so that I don't have to keep pretending like I have either of those things. More info on Dr. Pattee and our other experts can be found on our website. Unqualified Dotcom. Hi, Dr. Padi, hi. We are going to call Chris, OK?

Hello. Hi, is this Chris? It is. Hello, Chris.

I'm thrilled to be able to talk to you. This is Ana. I'm here with Dr. Patty Britton. She is a clinical sexologist, a sex educator and a sex coach. Oh, my gosh.

And it's so great to meet you, Chris. Thank you. Thanks for showing up.

Thank you. It's so great to meet you both to honor. I'm so excited to be talking to you. All of my friends are very jealous and excited for me.

Chris, I just I already just love you so much. Will you tell us what's going on?

Sure. So there's a little bit of a protracted background context, but I'll try to get through it as quickly as possible. So before this year, before like early twenty twenty, I hadn't really been dating at all. Like my last relationship ended in late twenty seventeen. And I took like a long extended break from serious dating to like take care of some stuff. And I had like health stuff at the time that was sort of had like tanked my self-esteem and I wanted to take some time to rebuild it.

And then at the beginning of this year I was like in a good place. I had like a good permanent job. I was like feeling good about myself. I had, like, a good social life going on. And I kind of wanted to, like, give dating another try. So at the end of February, I decided to try out the dating app, installed Saltines, because I'd never tried any of the apps before and went on a bunch of dates, basically, like I like for the first couple of weeks I had, like, I don't know, four or five dates in about two weeks and then lockdown happened.

It's kind of abruptly changed the whole situation. And like everyone that I was sort of talking to at the time, most of them kind of faded away. But I was trying to like we didn't know at the time really how long to expect that we would be in lockdown for. So I was kind of like still talking to some people and still trying to talk to new people just on the off chance that, I don't know, I might get myself a locked down boyfriend.

Yeah.

So it's a great idea. Yeah. I let down my boyfriend. I love it. Yeah.

And like I'm going to say the middle of March. End of March. I started talking to this guy who we're going to call Bill. We had a couple of virtual dates, which was nice, but I was kind of holding off on having an in-person date because at the time I was still kind of freaked out about meeting people in person. I put it off. I kind of kept putting off, meeting up with him in person. And then I started talking to someone else who are going to call Ted and immediately with him.

When you proposed meeting up in person because he lives close by and I just sort of felt much more immediately into him. I agreed right away. And so I was like, I should probably meet up with Bill now. So I did. So I had a date with both of them in person. In the same week I met with Ted, we had a wonderful, perfect first date kind of thing. I like got all those good feelings you're supposed to get.

And then I had a date with Bill shortly afterward and it was like very nice and pleasant. He was a really nice guy, but I didn't really feel anything beyond maybe being friends with him. So I told him upfront that that's how I felt and we had to just sort of agreed to be friends. And then I went on to date, Ted, and everything seemed to be going really well with him. We spent a lot of time together.

We had a bunch of really nice dates. I was meeting his friends. I went to his birthday party and like everything seemed to be headed in the right direction. And then all of a sudden he just abruptly pulled the plug, which it was only about two months at that point. But it was surprisingly devastating. Yes. So really like pulled the rug out from under me. And I spent quite a while feeling crappy about it. And then sort of around the same time, Bill's resurfaced and texted me and he was like, hey, are you serious about wanting to be friends?

So we should hang out. So we hung out, got like rom com drunk and had sex, and then in the morning we sort of were like, well, we're not seeing anybody else right now. Do we want to make meeting up a regular thing? So we've been meeting up literally every weekend since we sort of alternate who host because the current lockdown rules are you can only have a visitor if you live alone and we both live alone. The only people that were each legally allowed to see each other.

So we alternate. Who's that? Whose apartment. And we're still hanging out and we have a really nice time. He's super nice. The good dude. I feel like at this point I should have feelings for him, but I don't. So my question basically is like this heading for disaster? And also, am I a crazy person for not having feelings for him?

It sounds like he has stronger feelings for you than you do for him.

I think so. It's come up like when we agreed to start, like meeting up regularly, I was again trying to be as responsible as humanly possible and be like, I want to be clear that I don't think I have romantic feelings for you and that I don't think I'm going to. Is that a problem? And he said, no, it wasn't. And we've had a couple of check ins since and it continues to seem to be OK. And at this point, I feel like I know him well enough to know that he would be honest about it if it were a problem.

But I don't know if that's a safe assumption to make about anybody.

And then do you find yourself comparing Ted to Bill a lot?

I feel like I'm really trying my best to not compare them. Like every time I find myself doing it, it's like I remind myself that it's unfair. But it's so hard within the current context because, like, I don't have any anyone else to compare either of them to, because dating right now is more or less impossible. Moving on was very difficult because there's just like, where do you go? I was furloughed from my jobs. I got all day to do nothing and obsess over crap.

So there was a tough period after getting dumped where I was like, how am I supposed to do with all these feelings of rage?

But you enjoy your time with Bill, right?

Yeah, yeah. It's great. He's really nice and funny. We have a nice time. We have similar interests that there's not a lot that we're really able to do right now. So the fact that we both like just kind of relaxing and watching movies and cooking is good and we've like had serious conversations about things and like we've done, I guess, like kind of fairly copely stuff, but I don't consider it to be a dating relationship.

Dr. Patte, can I ask Chris how frequently I'm like a child?

Sorry, Dr. Perry. Can I ask Chris how frequently has sex with Bill?

Yes, you may. So we meet up every weekend and we have sex like two or three times the weekend.

Are you worried about breaking Bill's heart? I'm very worried about him getting hurt, yes. Like anything that I might do terrifies me very.

Okay, so, Chris, I got to jump in the water with you. Let's go for a swim. Jump on in.

So, first of all, what I hear is that there's a story that you're telling yourself about how things should be, and that's what I hear.

Could you maybe explain? Yeah, I'm going to dive in a little deeper. So what I mean is that you're telling yourself a story about two things. One is I'm responsible for my partner's feelings. He is your partner because he's the only person that I hear you're spending your weekends with and that you're sexting with. Am I right about that? Yes, you are correct.

So even if you don't feel those, quote, in love feelings, he is your partner. You care about him. And also many of us who are living in covid, who are not in long term committed, monogamous relationships, have different views about being with our humans, myself included, because we're living in a bizarre world with lock down and limitation. And sometimes there are people who come into our lives who may not fit the picture of what we thought we wanted or how it should be.

What I hear is that it's working, isn't it?

Yeah, it is working right now. And I'm like, it's just like it kind of freaks me out, I guess a little bit. But it's not so much that it's working. It doesn't frequenter that it's working. It's actually very comforting that it's working. It's just like what I work. I think what I'm really concerned about is that the longer it keeps working is that I'm worried that his feelings are just going to continue to develop if he has them.

I imagine that. If you actually cracked this open and you brought this up seriously and really put your attention on it together, what might happen is it might threaten the relationship. Am I right?

Yeah, for sure. Like the last time. But it kind of came up. He was very clear about being like, we don't need to talk about this unless it becomes a problem. Yeah. So, like, I'm not really, like, trying to have this conversation with him, even though I have this concern and these worries because I'm worried it's just going to put him on the spot and make him feel bad. Yeah. And it would potentially threaten this thing, which is very comforting and nice.

You know, it's very difficult being alone in this time of covid and lockdown where dating and real life going outside of the virtual world is almost prohibitive, right?

Yeah, I'm in Montreal and ah yeah, it's very bad here. Yeah.

Are lockdown restrictions are quite strict, so I don't really get to see very many people ever.

So what if you were to look at this as right here right now. And stop worrying about tomorrow. Patty, that feels impossible. Yeah, I was going to say that's a human being do that. They can.

They can because because that's part of what I'm calling the story that you're telling yourself, is that I should be able to predict and control the ending of this. I should be able to predict and control my partner's feelings and my feelings. And so there's a piece about this that is really a story. I'm using that with big air quotes around it.

These are not normal times. Right. And I mean, I'm in the California, we're in lockdown. They've closed everything. You know, it's the same situation except that you have the ability if you're I can't believe the law.

You have the ability, if you're single to have somebody come over. It's like, wow, I really know how to legislate there.

Yeah. It's a very specific provision in the law. I'm blown away. I live alone. You're allowed you're allowed to visitor as long as that visitor also lives alone.

So it's like the Canadian government is trying to protect the population from loneliness. There's something really romantic about that.

The other pandemic, Canada. Canada has issued a few like pretty pretty funny statements about sex during.

Yeah. The other thing I want to talk to you about is what do you think in love feelings are about?

Lou, that's a great question, isn't it? Yes, it's obviously different for everybody, I think. But I don't know the times in my life where I have been in love with someone, it's like kind of a combination of feeling a little bit like you're on fire, but in a good way. Mm hmm. And also, like, when you are around the person, it's sort of like coming home at the end of a long day.

There's something very comforting and familiar, not necessarily the sense that you've been there before. But I don't know, it's just like safe, comfortable, kind of familiar. The thing that's sort of missing, I think, with my time with Bill is there's like it's not devoid of passion. Like sex is very good. OK, I don't feel drawn to or compelled to always be near him in a way. I don't know how to articulate this.

Well, maybe it's hard to talk about because it doesn't have a lot of easy language. It doesn't.

So I wish I were sitting and looking at you because what I would say to you, kind of like with this loving mom five, is maybe this expectation of that passionate and loving.

This is what happens in that kind of fleeting beginning of a relationship. We have a term for it actually called Limerence Eliminator.

And see, it's kind of a it's a little bit like infatuation. Exactly.

And guess what happens? It goes away.

Yeah, it does. But in the context of the relationships I've had in the past, where it was like a long term relationship with someone that I was involved with, like even after a year or two years of being with that person, that initial honeymoon phase feeling obviously goes away. But there's still this undercurrent of like like when you're parted from the person, you miss them in a way that's really specific and particular. Yeah. And like, when you're with the person, you feel drawn to them in a way that's very specific and particular, not in the same way that I miss my mom or that I miss my friends like a very specific kind of longing.

Yes, I get it. Yeah. I don't know. I just wonder whether. You're looking for a kind of set of feelings you don't have with Bill yet, you have something else with him that feels more like a mature love. It's weird because many people are going through what you're going through. So this is such an important conversation. And I love that you're willing to share it so authentically because it's not easy. A little bit.

It's gone through my head a couple of times that I'm not like asking myself, like, are do you just have this like maybe slightly youthful and naive vision of love? And that's the thing that you have right now is maybe what it feels like to be in love at 31. Uh huh. But I feel like I don't know to me if I'm having sex, I've been having this conversation with myself and this level of doubt and this feeling of like if I accept this, it will sort of feel like I've settled for something that isn't actually what I'm envisioning.

Like, am I always going to think that is not going to undercut the relationship if it became a relationship like where do you go from having this feeling like this isn't really what it feels like when I'm in love? Mm hmm.

I understand. And maybe it just needs more time.

Maybe, you know, it could morph into something where those feelings emerge because in some ways there's this kind of odd situation going on, which is that you can't leave because you would you would have to choose between this or nothing is what you've sort of set up, right?

Yeah. I mean, I have started talking to other people over the past few months. Never anything goes anywhere, obviously, because I don't think people right now are really good on the follow through because it's so hard to even think about meeting up with somebody, I guess. Yeah. And I don't think my heart was really in it anyway. But I'm sort of at this point where I'm like, if I let's say I do meet somebody somehow. And I get those feelings that I'm looking for.

Yeah. What do I do with that? We're kind of all feeling trapped right now, and if Bill at times makes you feel confined or whatever, because we're all feeling that and trying to figure out how to not feel that way sometimes, especially right now, Chris, too, when you spent time with Bill, it's at your homes. So there is that intense intimacy as well. It's like, you know, I'm sure when you guys are together, maybe now there's a feeling of like you're almost kind of living together.

Yeah, it's like having a part time roommate. All right. So had you been in a lot of long term, like had you ever lived with a partner before?

I have never lived with a partner. No. I had two other long term relationships. But, yeah, they were a while ago at this point, I guess is why the last two of them ended in twenty seventeen.

OK, and then and then you took a break before all of this as well. So this is where our personalities differ. You and I, Chris.

I only hear I hear over here. Otherwise they're identical.

But I haven't been single since I was 16. Oh, I have. Yeah.

So anyway, I came out when I was pretty young, like I came out when I was 15 and I didn't have like a long term relationship until I was twenty, twenty one. OK, and then after that relationship ended I saw like a two, almost three year break again. And then the last relationship that I had, which I did in twenty seventeen again, I took a long break after it because the thing I know about myself, I was very good on my own and I tend to take some time and feel like I need time just for myself.

I would after a relationship because I get very invested in them and I tend to take a long time to extricate myself from them.

Yeah. So maybe this is also part of that too. Maybe your cautiousness makes you analyze. Maybe they're normal things that Bill does that annoys you about like, I don't know, loading the dishwasher or whatever, whatever the normal things are, you know, the things that we all adjust to as we are in each other's faces. And it is interesting because you kind of are at the earlier stages with it in a relationship with Bill, and yet it's only really been four or five months.

Right.

And yet you guys are like in each other's homes, you know, where things go, you know, in his place or he knows where things go in your space. And so it is like there aren't the sort of the normal testing of waters of, you know, the minor daily things in life.

I think you need to just let it roll for a while. I really do. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm always worried that I'm being irresponsible by just letting some things continue. But I still have this thought in my head that it could end badly. But that's just sort of being like overly anxious.

It's all going to end badly. Chris, everything. I'm sorry, Dr. Prati. That's the conclusion we've come to. So I have another question for you.

Are you worried that this is a rebound reaction to Ted's dropping you? Oh, fully, yes.

Yeah. One hundred percent. I am worried that that's a likelihood. I take that rejection and just kind of projected onto somebody else. Yeah. To make myself feel better.

Yeah, I don't think so at this point.

I'm like, if it had just been a rebound, I feel like I probably would have detached right now. But I don't know, I've never had a rebound relationship before, so I don't know what those are like.

I think that Dr. Petit is right. I think that you guys are giving each other companionship and friendship and sex and censoring sex. Yes. Do this time. And I love it that you are sensitive to Bill's feelings. And I think you should continue to be. I do think that Dr. is right that for right now, if you are happy, I do think write it out as well. I do feel like there is a conversation perhaps with Bill to be had.

But am I totally wrong, Dr. Pattie?

I think you have to be very careful because you have something to cherish in this. And it's is your pet really likes Bill.

I can tell you. I can tell you.

Do you think, Dr. it it's not so much about liking Bill. It's liking that this relationship serves both of you.

Yeah, I'm always worried about being selfish, but I'm always sort of thinking like, well, what is he possibly getting out of this? And I have to remind myself that, like, clearly he's enjoying himself, too, or he wouldn't want to continue it. But it's like it's very easy for me to feel like, oh, no, I'm taking advantage of him being nice. But I'm not like, no, I'm not. I'm just afraid.

I'm so afraid of taking advantage of someone's kindness because he's very nice. He's very kind. You need to have a chat with yourself and take yourself off the hook. It's interesting. I just feel that you're being really hard on yourself. This is about lightening up, giving yourself permission to enjoy what you have and really having gratitude for it. Let it be. Stop worrying about it. Stop going into what's going to happen. What's going to happen.

What if this what if that get out of the What-If mode and start filling your head with other kinds of thoughts.

Are you not working right now? Is that part of it?

Yeah, that is definitely part of it. I was furloughed in April and then they finally had to terminate my position in mid-November. So I thought there was a job to go back to and then all of a sudden there wasn't. So now I'm on the job hunt again.

OK, OK, so maybe creating a project for yourself where your head goes so that your mind has something, right?

Yeah, I was repainting my apartment and then purging most of my possessions and it's like trying to go through all the stuff that I needed to do. Yeah.

I mean, you're very intelligent and you're very sensitive. So you have so many gifts and it must be so hard not to be able to share those in the context of work. So having a project where you can put your mind to it, whether it's painting and purging or maybe it's deciding, I'm going to take a course online or reading five books in the next five months, whatever it is, so that your head gets out of the spinning top of thinking about the relationship.

Should I leave this? Does this good for me? Is this good for him? This isn't how I want to feel. You hear what I'm saying?

Yeah. No, I do for sure that I know. I know you're in a good place right now. Just allow that. I've had this thing in the past to where I'm not as attracted to people who are really kind to me. And it's a quality that I don't like about myself. I don't know if you're like that at all, not as an adult.

I definitely had that in me when I was younger. But like, I only like being around people who are kind and nice, like I hate being around people who are mean. And I don't tolerate people being outwardly mean to me because I'm way too sensitive for it. I just start crying. So, yeah, I don't like being around people who aren't nice to me.

So like I don't think that that's the problem.

So, Chris, it's Friday. Are you going to spend the weekend together this weekend?

Yeah, I'm headed to his house more or less as soon as I hang up. OK, great. I don't know why I wanted you to make him a little gift of some kind or something that interests him.

Well, I brought him baked goods last time. Oh, that's sweet. I don't know. I think if you guys are enjoying the time together right now, I would try to resist the temptation to future lies about what what it looks like in four months because we don't know where will will be. Dr. Patty, do you think that's pretty good advice, attempting to not define the future right now?

Absolutely. Get out of that thought. It's like a bad rabbit hole. You're going down. So stay out of that. And also just give yourself permission to enjoy what is OK.

It's OK. It's OK to just enjoy what's going on. Yeah. And Bill sounds like a really wonderful person. And he probably and you mentioned that you were open with him and he probably picks up on some of this stuff. So if in six months, seven months we're all vaccinated and there's a semblance of normalcy. God, it feels like I can't even believe I'm saying these things. Maybe that's a better time to evaluate. If you guys aren't together in a year, hopefully there's a wonderful friendship that has developed out of it.

Yeah, well, tell Billy said hello and hello and I hope you have a wonderful weekend. I hope we helped. I don't know if we came to anything definitive.

No, you did. Like it's like looking for like external approval commission or something. It's like permission. I can't really give my or have been struggling with giving myself right. To just like enjoy it because it's not a bad thing. And questioning good things is kind of the way you turn them into bad things. I think that the advice you give is really useful.

Yeah, you deserve this. Both of you deserve it. So just enjoy it.

OK. OK, I will do my best.

All right. OK, take care sweetheart. Pick out like everyone so much. Oh yeah.

We're probably going to watch Love actually and make fun of it. Oh good. Oh my God. I knew we had a lot in common Chris.

I hate that I hate that movie, but I do like to make fun of it.

I hate it so much. And then I cry every time and I get. Furious with myself, it's like sinisterly manufactured to make you do that, like it's like so specifically crafted to make you have that respond to evil.

It is. It's SWAC, but it's.

Evil shlock, I judge a person on their love or hatred of that movie is my terrible hatred actually, but I'm such a sucker for rom coms, too.

I honestly love them the worst that they are like it's like as trashy as they can possibly be. I just love them that much more because it's just I don't know, it's so easy to turn your brain off and just like, sink into it.

Oh, Chris, we did see a good one. We just talked with Clea Duvall. Oh, I love to double check out her Christmas movie. It's called Happiest Season. And it's great.

Yeah, I yeah, I've been seeing previews for it and I was pretty excited about it because I really liked her and everyone who's in it.

Yeah. We, we really, really enjoyed it. And thank you so much for sharing this stuff. We've been getting a lot of letters about people going through similar issues with new relationships during this time and people will benefit from hearing your story.

Yeah. Chris, will you please be in touch?

I love you. Yeah. Thank you again by Chris. Bye bye. Bye. Dr Patty. Thank you again for doing this today. Thank you. Bye bye.