Hey, everyone. Esquire magazine called today's guest one of the most influential people of the 21st century. David Chang is a chef, author and creator of some of the world's most distinguished restaurants, including Momofuku Ko, which was awarded two Michelin stars in 2009. And every year since I read his memoir, Eat a Peach in the weeks leading up to the interview. But his openness and honesty still took me by surprise.
After talking with David, I'm once again joined by dating expert, coach and creator of level online matchmaking April Buya. April is so insightful and offers some great practical advice on healthy approaches to dating.
I want to thank all of you again for your support, your feedback and simply just listening to the podcast. Please keep sending us your questions and telling us your stories. Just go to unqualified dotcom and look for the link. OK, here's David.
Ladies and gentlemen, you are listening to Unqualified with their host ionospheric. David, what's up, first of all, I can't thank you enough for doing this.
Of course. Thank you for having me.
I listen to your memoir on audiobook. I'm so glad that I did. It is so moving and it's so well written.
How are you feeling about everything?
Yeah, I don't know. It's weird.
You know, it's present for a lot of people that are learning about it or reading about it, but it's maybe a little bit like, you know, a TV show or movie that comes out.
By the time you do the press, you're like, wait, that's so weird to talk about it in present day.
And of course, I wanted to do well, but it's also strange that I have it all out there. So I sort of ignore it. Yes. Simultaneously.
Right. That's totally my strategy. Yeah, but there is that vulnerable feeling and then having to do press where you're forced to like, recap your memoir. I hate doing press. It's really difficult for me.
Listen, as a chef, I never thought I'd have to do press with food media to begin with. And then when we started to film TV shows, I never thought I would be one of those people that you see on like E television news where they sit in a hotel room just doing interview after interview. And I don't know how you guys do it because you're ask the same question over and over and over again. And I'm like, wow, these fucking guys are really good actors because how the hell do you do it?
Probably you like making the tuna carpaccio night after night.
I wanted to start this interview asking you to tell our listeners about Red Dragon Sauce. Yeah, why don't we do that?
I over the years have realized that so much of what Momofuku has done food wise has been very educational, I think trying to push the boundaries, trying to make delicious food, innovative value. But also it's sort of been a jokey art project, too, especially when it comes to like racism in Asian-American food and representation. And I just get so mad when I see people market Asian food with the dragon lettering and everything. And I knew people were going to copy our recipes to without I don't mind copying, just do the homework and pay respect.
OK, this is the stuff I want to get into the idea of duplication.
So I knew people were going to copy it and I also knew they were going to copy it blind. Will you tell our listeners what it is? Yeah, well, Red Dragon Sauce is basically go to John, which is like a Korean chili sauce. If you go to a Korean restaurant, you get it on your pop or, you know, rice cakes. It's a very, like, ubiquitous thing.
It would be like a Heinz ketchup. Exactly. And I just thought, let's just make it this fucking ridiculous name, Red Dragon Sauce. And nobody, not one person ever questioned the name. And over the years, I probably say a couple dozen times I've seen it on menus. And I think there's actually a restaurant that called itself Red Dragon Sauce or something like that.
To write like that was like their special sauce.
That chapter really got me thinking about our ideas, original, essentially. And you write about how every chef owes a debt of gratitude to some degree to everybody before them. I admire people who strive for an original idea. And you are that person and sometimes it works and it's incredible to see. I felt like what I heard in your book is your passion towards the conception of a brilliant idea to completion. Like has your theory been proved? Yeah, I think it has.
But also it's a work in progress. Right. There's a line by Stanley Kubrick, the great director that I've used. It's like everything's been done in film.
Every shot, every angle, every line. Your job is just to do a 10 percent better. And in food, it's almost impossible to invent something new. And the people that do invent something new are like the nestlings, the Mars, the giant conglomerates that can create just about anything. And the reality is a lot of the food techniques you see in restaurants are copies of what those companies created, like the failed patents. And I think the older I get, the more I realize there's nothing I've ever done that's truly original.
Making something original is the intent to make it better. That's what I mean. It doesn't mean like completely new. It's just like, can I make it better than it's been done before? That, to me is originality.
That's an amazing way to put it.
I love it when you write about why I get mad about food, because I related to that in terms of I've worked with actors who don't seem to really love acting. And like anybody, we can fucking gripe about all kinds of shit like, oh, my five a.m. call or whatever. Like it is especially frustrating when I work with people who don't seem to just like that performance element. And so when you write about working with people that don't have your drive and passion, how it makes you angry.
Yeah, even people closest to me are like, why do you care so much? I've never been able to easily articulate it because I don't know why I care about cutting something perfectly or making this dish as delicious as. Possible in some ways, I think it gives me meaning at the end of the day, it's why be mediocre at something you have like one life? Yeah, this is your task. This is your job, whatever it is. And I know it sounds cliche, and if I was telling a younger version of myself like a 10 year old Dave Chang, I'd be like, shut the hell up.
But, you know, the irony is, too, I didn't care about doing things properly. Like most of my life, I've always been allergic to work. I never went to class. I could give a shit about doing anything right, folding my clothes, doing anything like even now, like I can't take care of myself, but when I'm in the kitchen, everything has to be done right. It's a weird thing. And I think a lot of professional chefs feel the same way.
I don't know how many 40 year olds to six year olds listen to this podcast, but whomever they are, wherever they are, if they have a twenty four year old son that's living at their house right now, they're pissed off at you. Yeah, because you don't want to be told what to do.
They're like, well, maybe he could become that chef, honey.
Very few people got as drunk as I did or did as many drugs or I got as low of a GPA as I did.
You're a man of extreme. Yeah, I really am. I have no idea how it all worked out.
So it golfing. You were on your way to be like a pro golfer. Well, I wonder how you go from a single minded focus like golf. Yeah. To a very multitasking lifestyle, like being a chef, running a kitchen and your multiple businesses. Did you learn suddenly how to be a crazy hyper multitasker?
No. And most people would say, David, you're a horrible multitasker. I mean, this is the truth. But the thing with golf is I never really enjoyed playing golf.
My dad forced me to do it.
And I burned out at like age twelve. I mean, that's all I did every day play golf.
And, you know, that age of my life, I was such an obnoxious little shit because I thought I was better than everybody else. And the reality was I was better than most people until I wasn't. And that's when I think I just couldn't handle not being better than people.
Do you think that your dad viewed you as a prodigy that would help the family?
I don't know if it had helped the family. It was what he wanted me to be. I have no idea how he got this vision, but he's like, you're going to be a professional golfer. Maybe he took some LSD and I don't know. But I have no idea how the hell he came up with this idea.
My mom wanted me to be a pianist, and for seven years I took piano lessons.
Did you enjoy it at all? Fuck no. Do you play it at all now?
No. What about you? Do you play golf?
Well, the last time I play golf, seriously, I threw my clubs into the ocean. I fucking hate it. I still have this disconnect that I could beat everybody in the world even though there's no way I can. But golf was so ingrained in me and I guess piano's a little bit similar. So imagine if you were playing like competitive piano. Oh, gosh. All right.
That's sort of what my life was like. And at some point, you just you're like, fuck it, I'm going to try to, like, be good at this. And I got very competitive. And that is what is the connection between golf and whatever my restaurant life became. That's how I got anything done is I hate losing. I hate losing so much. That drives me crazy.
So you must hate doing things you're bad at. Yes, but that's why I actually do it. Well, what about something like bowling? If I had the time to poll, I would try to become the best bowler of all time.
I would do it over and over and over again. That's like my personality. I will do the things that I don't like to do.
I've been a waitress and I was a waitress at a retirement home. Wow. Yeah. You know, tip five five an hour, but at least there were only two menu options like the chicken breast and fish and chips.
And, you know, that's how you describe in your book a position in the kitchen that is under looked.
Oh, yeah. So that's the garment station. So let me just for the listeners that if you work in, let's just say a fancy restaurant, more than likely it's based on a French system. And that system was created by this guy named Escoffier like one hundred years ago. And he based on the military system in France and the word chef means boss. Sous chef means under chef. There's a chef that party, which is like the head of a station, and then you have chef cuisine, which is basically number two, technically, and everything is regimented.
And there's a hierarchy and you have the Sosha slash meat stations. You have the person, which is the fish station, you have the automatic, which is the vegetable grain station and so on and so forth. And the station that today currently, I think it's not the love that it deserves is the Gamel station, which is the cold station.
And the cold station in cultures like Japan and France are deemed as the highest station of honor. It is the most technically difficult station to do. Why? Because you have to learn how to not just make salads and Vinograd, but you also do charcuterie, which is like making sausages and potatoes and terrines.
Anything that's cold you're in charge of.
That sounds also like kind of boring station. Yeah, that's the thing. A lot of cooks, including myself, barhopping. Like, I don't want to do that fucking station. I want to be on the line.
I want to cook over there where it's cool. And dangerous, that's not the case if you learn how to be great at that station, it will serve you very well down the road in your career because learning to flip a piece of meat, however, that might seem to be difficult to somebody, is not that difficult. And it's never easy to do but to have skill and mastery. I think garbages the most important station, but a lot of people, at least in America, think of it dismissively as that's just the salad station.
And in some restaurants it is. And I think there's a big divide between what it could be and what people understand it to be.
And you write about those hours of chopping and chopping. Well, that's what I'm cooking is it's the Domitian. Listen, I don't know how cooking became popular because in like twenty five years, it being a coal miner, if that's even around or something like that, working in the oil rig becomes cool, then I'm going to like the world is just totally out of control. I don't know what the hell's happening because that's sort of the repetition and drudgery that cooking is.
It's chopping, it's cleaning, chopping and cleaning. 90 percent of your day is just doing that. And you don't get to really do anything new.
Early on, like back in March, when we first began to quarantine, I would comfort myself by watching kind of odd things on YouTube. But I saw like some ad for a cruise ship or something, which was complicated in and of itself. But they were having close up shots of the food and there was lots of garnish. And it was at a time when I was first digesting, like the potential trauma or the uncertainty.
I remember thinking, will the aesthetic of food be no longer counted? And I was thinking about this as my roots were growing out as well. Like, I'm not wearing a bra, like, fuck all the protocol.
I said, where are you going for me? That's where I'm at. And I think I was headed to this direction before the pandemic of what's the point of doing something that is frivolous. I always use the example of like a three Michelin star restaurant where you're serving a duck breast and you trim the duck perfectly into a rectangle. And I've been in these kitchens. I worked in these kitchens. You throw away all the other parts of the duck, you know, and you're just like, well, that's fucking stupid.
Legitimately, I think it's important to ask, how useful are restaurants?
Oh, they're so useful. They are. But they're also sort of frivolous to. Right.
People could question the same thing about my profession. I think we're way less useful than you guys are. You guys give us joy. I'm going to see, I guess restaurants can do that, too, but yeah, I don't know.
And being able to cook at home as much as I have, that has made me realize what food is without sounding like a cheesy Hallmark card cooking for people that need to be fed, people that you want to express your love to.
It's always what like grandma's food is. It's just simple. It's delicious. It's perfectly imperfect. And I think restaurants should have a little bit more of that. And I'm guilty of it. You know, my restaurants and the restaurants I often admire, you want to be like the coolest thing. You want to do the most innovative thing. But at the end of the day, you're also just feeding people right.
David, can I give you two countries and will you describe your most memorable meal?
Doesn't have to be best done. Let's go. Number one, Italy. Italy.
OK, my most memorable meal was in Milan about ten, eleven years ago. And I was there doing a culinary conference and I was dining out with my friend who's a local, and he said, you got to go to this restaurant. This grandma makes all the food by herself. And Milanese food is very different than the rest of Italy.
At that time, I had some understanding of Italian food, but didn't know. Like, it's actually sort of weird because it's got a lot of French and German influences. That's where, like, you get effective, like a schnitzel. It's just not what you think Italian food is.
And I just got this whole lesson on what food from Milan could be.
And it was beautiful. It was also the height of my truffle season. And we have everything. And she brings out this giant wheel of gorgonzola dolce.
And then she takes like a giant birthday cake size of this stinky blue cheese and puts it on our plate in front of us. And then she takes a grapefruit size white truffle and she just obliterates the entire white truffle all over this piece cheese. And I'm thinking to myself, like, fuck is going on. That's not going to work.
That's the dumbest combination I've ever seen. And secondly, I'm like, why would you waste a white truffle on this? And then my friend in Italian translates what I'm asking to her. And she basically looks at me with disdain, saying, I grew up thinking the potato was more valuable than the truffle. And a lot of times did they would rather have had a potato than a truffle because that was more nourishing and gave them more sustenance. They don't give a shit about this.
And on top of it all, when I tasted the cheese with the tons of white truffle, it was maybe the single Best Buy, the food I've ever had because it was not remotely close to anything I've tasted in my life. It didn't make any fucking sense effectively. Again, it's a tiny of blue cheese and it's incredibly pungent and fierce. And I don't know why, but I put a disconnect because I thought, oh. White truffles have to be treated carefully and delicately, but the reality is the flavors gnarly, too.
And when you combine that together, it just actually balanced each other out. And then it was like, I don't know, fucking shit, fucking shit.
This is amazing. I love that. All right, Vietnam, I have not been to Vietnam, I haven't either. The reason why I'm saving it, I think the food of Vietnam is so beautiful. So if I go there, I want to spend like a couple of months at least. Yeah, OK, Spain.
OK, I'll give you Spain. I'll take Spain because it was the most memorable meal of my. Oh great. So I was filming Lucky Peach which got renamed Mind of a Chef and I was there again doing another culinary conference. And when I say culinary conferences like fashion shows, right, you go in front a bunch of people and you show them the latest techniques in the shit that you're working on in your restaurants.
And I have all these other friends and great chefs. You have Daniel blued wildly different, and Tony Bourdain was there. When you go to these culinary conferences, you were fed like a fucking pig, like the best shit, the best Iberico ham, caviar, you name.
Oh, my God. And in Spain, you cannot eat any vegetables. It just doesn't exist. It's all meat. There's no green leafy vegetable. I swear to God, every time I'm in Spain, I go to McDonald's for that little fucking salad cup because that's the only fucking place you can get something that's not a canned white asparagus or something canned. Everything's canned fucking vegetables or pork or beef. And you're just like crave vegetables and fruit. And we're tired of drinking because in San Sebastian, where we were and they drink giant goblets of gin and tonics.
Did you know this? No, it's fucking insane.
I don't even know how it became the drink of that area. But we're talking about like double Big Gulps. There's only fucking glass. They have four gin and tonics. They're like sixty four ounces. You're like, how the fuck are you going to drink all that? It's just fucking weird. The bars there just serve gin and tonics. There's no other fucking drink. Giant goblin's, a gin and tonic. You're so fucking drunk, you're so full and you've been eating so well.
The last thing you want to do is honestly, it sounds so obnoxious.
You get tired of eating. So that's where we're all at. It was like the last night and so many of the restaurants in San Sebastian are in the countryside, you know, 90 minutes outside the city. And I remember drinking the gin and tonic with Tony Denia, blud, and widely defraying or like, fuck, I don't want to go to this restaurant, the Turbow, this beautiful flatfish. It's like probably my favorite fish in the world to eat.
And they're like a fucking turbow can't I can't eat another goddamn piece of turbow. And we're coming up with reasons of how not to go there. Like maybe if we just keep on drinking, we won't have to go. So we got fucking shitfaced and one of the gin and tonic bars. That's always a great business plan, David.
And next thing I know, we're like the organizer of the like you guys have to go. We're like, oh, so I don't even remember much. Oh, how we got into a car getting to this restaurant. But it's now packed with all the attendees and we are fitted with the best of the best. And we're all sitting out this giant table. It's this beautiful restaurant overlooking the ocean again. It's the last place in the world we wanted to be at.
And this is how, you know, this amazing meal we couldn't stop eating. It was so fucking good. It was the best meal I've ever fucking had. When the trouble came out, even Daniel Boulud was trying to serve everybody and he was shocked. They're like, no, no, it's off the bone. So they take these giant Turbo's and they're best in the wintertime. Right, because they fat and they grill everything over charcoal and as a grilling and they spritz them with the local sherry vinegar.
My description isn't doing it justice. It's sort of ineffable because it's like eating barbecued fish and it's gelatinous. It's like fish rips. Oh, wow. And you're like licking your fingers shits all over your face.
It's unreal. And we kept on thinking like we are.
So if we miss this meal, we are fucking idiots. It's still one of the highlights of my life really was amazing.
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OK, if you could live anywhere in the world for a year, I'd probably maybe say Thailand or Vietnam. Those are two parts of the world where the cuisines are unbelievable. To me, the food is outrageous. And from what I know of, the people would be great to. And listen, I might do that anyway. Yeah.
For a while I had this list completely uninformed of men and professions you should not date. And I have not dated that much. I think I've been out on three dates and then I just I get married. But the list went as follows. Magician, musician.
What do you have against magicians? Listen, we could spend a long time going through all of this.
All right. All right, all right. I just want to tell you, number four is chef with a clown isn't in the top three.
Well, clowns sort of blend with the magician. OK, OK.
Well, listen, I think your list is completely accurate.
Thank you. So I was so thrilled you were coming on the show. I thought, OK, this will be great territory for David, because my theory is with dating this chef, we're not unlike potential red flags for an athlete with a professional athlete.
It felt like you like the emotional support you must give after every game with one degree or another would just exhaust me personally. And then my assumption with a chef only having watched Hell's Kitchen is that I bet the food would be amazing.
That would be a real perk. But does it cultivate a degree of temperament that I'm not sure I could handle? Then I listen to your book and I was like, I can't fucking ask David Chang about his anger issues in a humorous way.
Yes, you can if you can. All right, listen, I can't speak on behalf of all chefs, but there's two people I tell the opposite sex or the same sex. Never date. Don't date a Korean guy and never data chef and don't date an actress.
Yeah, right. And my wife got both the Korean guy and the chef, the double whammy. And I'm just a hot mess of a person and I have been. So you're right. Chefs have for the most part, if you're not a private chef or you don't have some kind of corporate working gig, your hours are horrible.
Even if you have Monday to Friday, you're probably not coming home till 1:00 in the morning, 2:00 in the morning. And the other thing is people think that my wife or even the people that I've dated in the past, they eat extremely well. I never cooked at home ever. I act at home on occasion, so.
Yeah. And do you act at all? Yeah, I do. I do. It's your job. Right. Why would you want to do that. And that's the funny thing. The last thing you ever want to do after spending all day in the kitchen is to spend more time in the kitchen. So, you know, my wife literally thought that I was a fraud because I never cook for, like, a year.
And the other reason why I never cook for her is cooking for someone while you're dating too early, sets the bar too high to suit.
You are a mean man, David Chang. I know. I know. I know. I said that. It's true now. I cook all the time.
You're not playing like your ace card right off the bat. Oh, no, no. That's why you got to hold that ace card because I don't have many cards to play with, like my only fucking card.
But truthfully, now, now that I'm home and I'm not working like I used to, I cook so much in my life has changed a lot. I've grown up a lot. And I think being a dad and prioritizing my life has caused me to reevaluate who I am and why I do what I do. There's a time and place to be young, dumb and obnoxious. It's the same equivalent of being like to old of a dude dating like too young of a person.
Right. It just looks weird. I think I've always wanted to be somebody that grew up in a reasonable way.
And I think for too long I was just stuck being this super angry, obnoxious asshole. And I think for the most part, I still those things.
But I'm trying I'm trying to grow up, I don't know, forever great examiners of how people perceived us all the time.
I think it's pretty accurate. I think people got me pretty good when I was younger. I mean, I was pretty monotone as a person, just an angry motherfucker. So, yeah, like people say, you're an asshole.
They were pretty accurate, you know. All right, David, we're getting back to what is your favorite ice cream flavor?
Oh, shit. That's the hardest question, because it used to be cookie dough. Now it's like gooey butter cake, sometimes a strawberry. I guess I like salted caramel right now.
I love the thought you put behind that because I could tell you the brands and I like to tell myself I'm not an ice cream person, but I think I tell myself that because I don't want to hate myself even more than I do, because I always eat it. I'm like, fuck, I ate way too much ice cream. And you put the car.
In a way it feels like the simple optimism of having something icy and sweet and creamy in your mouth.
It's like this is the time for that feeling. What's your flavor? I was just thinking like peach, you know, what's an underrated flavor?
Pralines and cream. You very unreal, right? You know what's overrated? Rocky Road.
I don't know. You like Rocky Road.
I think it could be reinvented. Maybe the older, like established brands. It's so predictable because when I was a kid that was like kind of a novel flavor, remember.
OK, rum raisin, rum raisins, highly underrated. Like it can't be a fancy rum raisin. It's got to be like Briar's or lower quality rum raisin tastes good for whatever reason when it's not like a super premium brand.
Yeah, raisins are a passion of mine. Are you also a prune person? No, nor am I a cranberry person. Thank goodness.
Are you oatmeal raisin cookie kind of person? Oh yeah. I put raisins in everything. Do you eat ants on a log? Don't tell me you eat and sing along. I don't because they take too long to make.
All right. All right.
No, I really love to cook, David. I'm not great, but I really love it. And I have an odd amount of kitchen equipment because it's all our family seems to give each other for any major holiday or birthday, just more cooking equipment.
Well, I got to send you our salts and spices. I would love that. What are your thoughts on just plain old vanilla? I'm down with that.
OK, so my mom collects fine food items from all over the world.
Like what? Like I was just thinking vanilla beans that she gets from Tahiti and she has very specific opinions on like cinnamon from Thailand or Vietnam and cinnamon from Madagascar. Like there's a whole thing and I can't speak for her, but she was very, very, very prepared for this quarantine, for her to explore the world through cooking, finally using all the shit that's in her cupboard.
Does she make her own ice cream? Oh, yeah. What? Oh, yeah.
I have never made ice cream at home in my life. Zero.
Well, you don't even cook for your fucking wife. I do that all the time for the record, as I should boyfriend.
OK, what's your favorite curse word? I swear too much. Here's a true fact. The New Yorker ran a profile of me when I was younger and I broke the record for curse words. I said Fuck fifty six times and you mentioned it.
Yeah, that's my claim to fame.
I wish I was diagnosed with Tourette syndrome because it would explain why I probably say fuck.
Past tense. Present tense. Probably the word I say the most every day.
OK, what was your first boss like or maybe your early influencers.
I think the best boss that I had.
Let's talk some shit, David. Well, let's be honest.
I share that my first boss was my dad. He was a horrible, horrible boss, like my mom. Again, he passed recently. She said he was a horrible father, a terrible husband.
Yet I loved him. That was. The best eulogy ever, I guess, in terms of cooking, the best boss I had would be probably Mark Kenora and Jonathan Banner and the entire team of Kraft, the first real restaurant that I worked at and worked at a few others. But that was like the first real real deal restaurant, Tom Colliculus restaurant and Mark and Jonathan Alter Nawab. And they were great because they treated me like shit, like I'm a little sibling.
To them, it was their way of teaching me the ropes and really pushing me to be better and making my job incredibly difficult with workload like every day. For example, on that Ghahramani station that we're talking about earlier every day I had to make a new salad dressing. I could never repeat one salad dressing. Think about that. I think I probably had to come up with three hundred different salad dressings in my time there.
That doesn't sound like much, but it sounds like a lot.
It's a fucking pain in the ass, and that's the kind of stuff that they would do, just like needle me that was so beneficial for my development as a chef because it caused me to try to learn how to make something out of nothing, to use my imagination, and to learn that if I made a Buttermilk Ranch dressing that could turn into a blue cheese dressing the next day. Right. And then just constantly iterating and iterating. And I'm so grateful for that opportunity they gave me.
You write about the idea of psychological trauma, which is something that in the entertainment world, it was an old school mentality of yelling. You know, it was just like barking, yelling, drilling.
Do you know directors that are like that? That's a calling card, right? Totally. I am known to be that version of that as a Dave Chang is a yeller and he will scream and curse. I've been honest and open about that since, you know, the first restaurant, and I'm not that kind of person in real life. That's just unfortunately what cooking has brought out of me. And I've tried to get better at that over the years.
But that kind of rage is something I have identified early on because that has never been part of who I am as a person. I'm a relatively passive aggressive pothead and it's weird to be so aggro about something again.
I would ask, like, why do I fucking care about this so much? It doesn't make any fucking sense. And I've really worked out why I get angry. That took a long time to identify connecting all the dots all the way to childhood and then developing cognitive and behavioral therapy to sort of temper that.
So now I still slip up, but I look at my anger like an addiction. It is very similar to AA. Right. And when I get angry, I feel like I fell off the wagon and I, I feel like shit.
So I really admire that.
It's something that you recognize. I worked with this director who is really fucking tough and it felt irrational like 90 percent of the time. And I remember a fellow actor after the shoot was over, said to him, you know, you're kind of a dick to your crew. And I was a witness to this. And the flooring part was how shocked he was this whole time. I thought that it was all very intentional and calculated his anger and rage.
So we all took it quite personally. But the fact that he wasn't even aware was like, oh, fuck, this might be like even worse than we are.
You know, something a chef told me early on because the first restaurant and most of our restaurants are open kitchens and it's like theater. You can see everything and hear everything. And after me just having a normal day, probably being an asshole, a very respectable chef, came in and pulled me outside and said, hey, I want to give you advice. The reason you yell is because you're not a good chef and you're insecure. And I was like, fuck you.
And I thought about that chef in that moment for like ten plus years. And the reality is that chef was 100 percent right. I was completely insecure. And if I was a better chef, if I knew what I was doing, if I had a cohesive plan, that's the problem. Every day is about putting out fires, metaphorically and literally. But if I was better at being a boss, there is no need to yell. I would be thoughtful enough, empathetic enough and planned far ahead enough to have seen all of these problems ahead of time and to communicate individually to each person what I expected out of them.
And if I was so good, I would have told them, watch out for this. Watch out for this over here. This might happen. So prepare for here, here and here. But I never did that. It was always reactionary. And that was a pride swallowing moment.
Shit like how amazing that you are. Not very many people can do that. Yes. OK, what was your first love like? My first love was probably not reciprocated. They never.
Oh, no, no, no, no, no. She totally destroyed me. That's what happened.
David, I paid a boy twenty five cents every day range on in third grade so that he would like me.
Ryan, you really fucked it up. He was the fastest runner. David. Nobody could run faster than Ryan.
Well, Ryan, you could have an. In your life, you chose to run fast. You fucked that up. Thanks, David. Yeah, no, my first one really crushed me and it's the kind of one that came into my life later after she knew she could fuck with me and she fucked me again.
And, of course, like a dummy, I was like, OK, wait, are you, like, in your 20s? This was like early in my life. And then later in my early 20s. Yeah.
Yeah. They sometimes come back to haunt you, those things. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, we have to honor the scars. My making lemonade out of any heartbreak is that I feel like you're not a complete person. Gaullists, you've had your heart, you know, scraped.
You have to unfortunately, which is why I always get like weirded out when I know people or I'm friends with people that only dated one person. You know, that's not going to work so well.
Yeah, my parents met at age, I don't know, 19. They got married. They have my brother and myself. My brother and I have both been divorced twice.
You would think that, like, we would have been like, primed for like stable marriages from the get go. OK, what qualities do you look for in a friend? It's pretty simple, I think.
Honesty, loyalty, which always makes it weird to say because of fucking Trump, but like loyalty is probably tied with honesty.
I want my friends to stick with me in the bad times as much as they will in the good times, and also to be loyal enough and honest enough to tell me what I don't want to hear.
And then you get out the knife and then I'm like, fuck you, I'll never talk to you again. You know, I, I used to do.
On what occasion do you lie?
I'll be honest. I don't really like I really don't. And it's not because I'm being altruistic. It's just fucking easier.
Totally. Why lie. You just have to keep track of shit. I am not lying because I'm fucking lazy.
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What's a trait you dislike in others? Man, there's so many, I think, lack of integrity to be able to believe something but not be able to be honest about it.
Right. Basically, the entire Republican Party forced off.
David, on your podcast, you talk a lot about movies. What is your favorite rainy day movie?
Can I say Yogi Bear, three days, OK? Yogi Bear, 3V, I mean, most of the movie and I really think I had five lines, all of which started with a yogi, a very emotional degree.
Listen, that's art. That's minimal art. You did it. And paying a mortgage. David, what is your greatest extravagance?
I love caviar. Yeah. When it comes to food snobbery, I am the biggest fucking food snob you've ever met. But like I do like chicken fingers or anything like that. But what I like to do is dip a chicken finger in a big tub of expensive caviar. And I'm not talking about the paddlefish rows. I'm talking about the stuff that is illegal to get. That is just unbelievable. You got you can't get it here in America, but like, the stuff from Russia is outrageous.
It's so fucking good. You're like, why would you want to drink with vodka? And then you do it. You're like, oh, my God.
So, David, remember when you were going to send the spices and the salt and stuff? Yeah. Yeah. Could you pack a little bit of that illegal caviar and there to just say, no, I'm not promoting caviar.
I've just when I've been in Europe, I've tasted it. There's great caviar made domestically in Idaho. Idaho has like I used joke like the Tesla of caviar because you're talking about these massive, massive fish that are like a thousand pounds that swim up from the ocean and they live in this estuary is just unbelievable. And I can't believe we're talking about caviar. So I'll shut up because I could talk about it all day. So it's great.
It's really, really unbelievable. There's all kinds of caviar. But technically, if it's not like from a sturgeon, it's not really caviar. But I even like salmon. Roe salmon was delicious.
I think there's always that challenge. And this is a very simplistic way to put it. When you eat something that challenges your palate and then makes you feel a bit alive. I feel like the first time as a kid or whatever, as an adult, you have a raw yeast or sea urchin or caviar. The flavor expectation can be off-putting because it feels foreign and then it becomes something that inexplicably you crave.
Caviar is not something that I think kids would like to eat. It's fishy, it's salty, it's got a weird texture and it tastes like something that you're not supposed to like. And maybe that's why I like it so much, you know?
Yeah. What haven't you taken the time to learn about? I'm so bad at languages, and even when I had to take the time in school, I cheated. So I don't know shit. And my career now is worse than my son's.
I see the same thing and I don't think my brain can absorb anything more in life. In general.
I feel like such a dumb ass about my language skills that I would even call English English anymore. I just call it American.
Is there a moment in your career that you're most proud of?
I'll be honest. I was really proud of the team in Sydney professionally when they were ranked best restaurant in Australia and had nothing to do with it. The more I try to make something better these days, the more I fuck it up. So just give it to everyone else to run and they're going to do way better than I did.
How did you meet your wife? I think the thing I hate the most in life are nightclubs, fucking hate nightclubs with a white hot heat.
The only way they'd be even remotely fun is if you are on like drugs. I hate them so much. And the irony is, again, I met my wife in a nightclub. That's the craziest story. When I tell my friends, it's like you fucking hate nightclubs. And long story short, I got a call from my friend. He said, hey, we're going to meet a bunch of girls at a club. You want to go? And I'm like, No, but I'll go because there's girls that you know, that are there.
And I went I stayed for five minutes. Once I heard the beat of the shitty music, I was like, I get the fuck out of here. But I noticed this really attractive girl sitting across or standing in the crowd, and that's all I needed. I'd even introduced myself. I mean, we sort of met and the next day she held a barbecue. I showed up with my friend that invited me to the club. They were cooking food for all these guests and they had no idea what they were doing, like just burgers and hot dogs.
But they were like going down. They were in the weeds. And I was like, oh, this is a perfect opportunity to show my superhuman skills.
And I made food for like seventy five people and was helping them clean up. And it was now like nine ish or so and people were leaving was a Sunday night and they were like, wow, we're really hungry. I said, Oh. You know what's interesting, I have a restaurant just two blocks down the street. Why don't we go over there to eat? And that's how it started.
What? You told us that you did not cook. I didn't cook for them. Hamburgers, hot dogs. It's technically theirs. 75 people. That's good seduction material there.
It's the first time it actually came out the way it should have come out. So I was thankful. And he is amazing to put up with me.
So, OK, in one word, how would you like to be remembered?
God damn it, what's up with these hard questions? Shit. Cranky curmudgeon. That's it.
OK, wait, that might be accurate. Yeah, I think it's I can grow into being more curmudgeon now. I don't know. I mean a voice I'd like kind loving. I think that's bullshit.
Well curmudgeonly is a very accurate word for who I am right now.
Well, I think you're fucking amazing and I cannot thank you enough. Surely it means so much.
I appreciate it. And anything I can ever do for you. Let me know. And a real pleasure to speak to you. And hopefully we get to do this again soon.
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Hey, everyone, April Buyer is back on the show today, April is a dating coach and matchmaker who has spent the past 20 years dedicated to helping people find and build lasting relationships.
You can find more information about April and our other experts at unqualified dot com. Hey, April, welcome back. Thank you again for doing this. Thank you. It's been awesome with Comet.
Hello. Mitch, hi. Hi, Anna, how are you? I'm great. How are you? I'm doing well.
I'm here with April Beier and she is amazing. Nice to meet you.
Thank you for writing and mentioned. Thank you for talking with us. Will you tell us what's going on? Yeah, of course.
I feel like recently I've just been feeling like one of those people who will be forever alone and some days I'm OK with that. But then other times it just kind of scares the hell out of me. But a quick rundown. I came out halfway through college back in like 2013. I maybe had like two or three flings in college, but I always knew I wanted to work in the entertainment industry and move to Los Angeles. So I didn't really pursue those relationships because I didn't want to end up having to choose between a guy in my career.
So after I graduated college, I moved to Los Angeles in January 2015. I spent like the first year or two really focusing on my career and getting to know the city and the people. And it wasn't until about twenty seventeen when I really started putting myself out there and going on dates, et cetera. The past few years there had been multiple guys that I really liked and we got along great. We had good conversations leading up to the dates and I felt like the dates went well and we had a lot in common, music we liked and movies we loved and places we wanted to travel and go see and stuff.
But most of them ended up just ghosting me, which really sucks because, you know, when you don't get a reason as to why that kind of hurts. But then there were a couple other dates that went even better, like there was a bunch of dates that we went on over the course of like six to eight weeks. But for those guys, I was realizing that I was the one who was texting them first and engaging in the plans and asking them to dinner, asking them to go hiking or to the movies.
And I would kind of always ask myself why I was the only one putting in the effort. So I decided to stop texting them just to see if they would reach out to me and make the plans. And they never did. So then I was like, OK, well, now am I the one ghosting or are they still ghosting me because they're not putting in the effort that I was? And it clearly kind of seems like they don't want to continue dating.
So I've just been stuck in this rut recently because when we're in a pandemic and it's harder to meet people, too, I'm not like really the biggest on social dating sites. And I know at the end of the day, we shouldn't really compare ourselves to like other people's like timelines. But for someone being twenty eight, I turned twenty nine a couple of months, never having been in a relationship or in love. It's really hard not to think about that.
And I love Los Angeles. My career is going well, but the older I get, the more I'm torn between moving back to the Midwest or staying in L.A. And I'm wondering if you think that a city and the people who live in it can really live up to like the toxic stereotype that people make it out to be met.
You have called the right and wrong people.
I'll take the right one for.
OK, April, you're up for it.
April. OK, do OK. So you're twenty eight. You're soon to be twenty nine. OK, you said you've never been in love. Why do you think you've never been in love.
I just don't feel like I have like I don't feel like I've really experienced like true love wanting to be with a person, spend time with them all the time and be with them for like the rest of my life or possibly get married with someone I haven't really met the right person. And I feel like I might not meet them in the city.
Hey, Mitch, what is the significance of coming out in college? Why did you specify that? Did it feel late to you?
Kind of because I you know, back in like early 2010, 2011, especially in the Midwest, being gay wasn't very accepted there. So it definitely took the gay community longer, I feel like, to come out in that specific area of like the US. But then I look back now and I see, like, all these college kids go to the same college. I didn't know they were coming out at early ages and like early college or even like high schools, they were able to be more open with themselves and experience like the dating pool that I really wasn't able to because I didn't come out till later on.
Do you feel like Mitch now, especially like living in Los Angeles? Do you feel much more comfortable with all of that?
Absolutely, yeah. Another reason why I moved out here, because it was so gay friendly and very liberal. Yeah.
Keep in mind, Mitch, that L.A. is made up of people from all over. You know, my husband's from the Midwest and it's why he was my favorite choice. You know, I'm a California girl.
I meet a guy from the Midwest, you know, true blue, straightforward, I mean, potatoes kind of guy. And he got my heart because he was so different from everybody else around me. So please know that that's actually a value added that you're from. No, I find myself attracted more to guys from the Midwest, the ones I really did like out here in L.A. They were from like Ohio or Minnesota or Michigan like myself. Yeah.
Where is the expectation? Where do you get that from?
That, you know, by twenty eight, twenty nine that you should have all of this locked down and that you should have had love and be on your way. Who told you or where did you read that you should have this buttoned up by now.
It's not specifically that. It's more I guess it could be like just a personal fear of mine, of, you know, just knowing that I feel like the majority of people, like we're able to date in, like high school and college and kind of like figure out who they wanted out of a partner and like what certain characteristics like they're attracted to. And I feel like that's scary for someone like me because I've never had that. And it's scary to jump into a relationship now because, you know, most of my friends are saying it's kind of like a good thing that I've waited so long to like date.
But in my mind, it might not be because they the person that I'm actually meant to be with might come next. But then in the back of my mind, I might be like, well, I should still test the waters and date around kind of like really see like who I want to be with.
So you're actually kind of creating a scenario that hasn't yet happened, I guess.
Is that like my own self-fulfilling prophecy?
Well, you know, just remember, you're the guy that chose career in education over relationships. So even though some of those people around you were, you know, figuring it out and they knew what they wanted and what they didn't want and they were dating somebody, you were intentionally not choosing somebody because you had this vision, this dream. You wanted to go to college. You want to focus on your work. You wanted to get to L.A. So it's not that you couldn't.
It's just you chose not to.
But that was back then, because now recently I have been I really have been trying to, like, put myself out there and, like, go on dates.
OK, so for how long do you think, like, just since you've been, quote unquote, putting yourself out there for five years?
OK, you know, if I were to tell you that most of these lasting relationships are happening with people in their 30s, would you believe me the fact that you've been spending your time developing your life and your foundation and who you are and then you meet somebody makes you that much more of a trustworthy partner later on. And I don't think you need to learn for fear meeting somebody and then backing out of it because you feel like you're going to need more experience because we don't know what that other person is going to bring to the table either.
So don't imagine their part yet. Just imagine, hey, I'm almost twenty nine. I've been developing my car in my life. And when I meet a guy, I'm a better partner because I know who the heck I am. And I don't have all of these failed romances from the past that have kind of put a ding in my door, so to speak.
April, how do you sort out the people that, like Mitch want a relationship as opposed to people that are treating it kind of like a game? Yeah. How does that language get broken down? So it's like, no, no, no, I don't want to be swiping for the next four years. I actually would like to have a companion in my life that I love.
Yeah, it's a video game. Yeah, right. It's a time passer and a time suck.
So first things first is that, you know, to get over that hump of not feeling rejected is this swipe is exactly equal to if you were in a bar and you walked in the door and somebody looked up and met your eyes and you met there. So that's it. It is no acknowledgement of I like you, I'm interested, I'm ready, I'm available. It's literally just the look up. So that's number one. Number two on your profile, speak to more of who you are and what you want and not what you don't want.
And unfortunately, with some of the gay dating apps is that it's so sexy forward. And I'm sure you've seen this, too. It's like, hey, I'm a Midwest guy, I'm educated. I want a relationship. I don't want to be in this kind of environment where everybody's looking for a hookup. But I know plenty of guys that have called me and said, listen, I can't be in the gay bars. I don't want to be and I don't want to be on these dating sites.
How do I find somebody who is as steady and ready? And I think it's really about your choice and imagery to make sure that your images literally reflect back like who you are, that you don't play their game, you play your game, that you state exactly who you are and what you're looking for. You don't have to say, I'm not interested in the swipe. And then finally, it's about being super open minded to connection and not worrying about your end goal.
So your need for a relationship can't be your driver, especially now, Mitch. It just has to be hey, I'm interested in connecting with people that are like minded, share my thoughts, share my values, and that's it. Like, don't worry about attraction or anything else.
I feel like I definitely am. I mean, going back to honest said about like weeding out like the inconsiderate people. I totally agree with that. And I also agree with like knowing how dating sites can just be very vapid and shallow. Like I don't like to be on them.
Right. Like I said, you cannot change the way people are behaving. But it's important that right now, because you're so young, Mitch, you have to know how much time you have in front of you. You're so young, you have so many opportunities and life gets better the closer you get to 30, especially, I believe with gay relationships, you're going to start to see this. Thank God you're having your birthday because the 20s for anybody is really difficult.
But think about it like when we're in our 20s, everybody's horny and like having sex, like whether you're gay or straight, it doesn't matter.
I remember being more jealous and driven, but more insecure and very it would be hard for me to be more self-absorbed than I am now.
But I'm in my twenties for sure.
Yeah, she's right.
It's comparison time. You know, it's a time fraught with a lot of insecurity. And people are just kind of they're doing their best, right. They're not out there to try to hurt anybody. They're just figuring their shit out, really. And the comparison is huge. I think what's most important is that we talk about the effort you're putting out because the app fatigue is real.
And usually people that feel the app fatigue has nothing to do with how long they've been on the apps, but how they've been using the apps.
Are you on it like checking? I know you've been doing it in the past, but when you were on them, were you checking it all the time? And like you said earlier, you were the one making the dates. You were the one planning the dinners, making the phone calls.
Most of the guys that I was going on dates with was either through friends or it was through like meeting them on like Instagram or maybe Twitter. It really wasn't through like Tinder Bumble or any of those apps. I did have those when I first came out to L.A. in like 2015 16. But it was just exhausting, just the constant like swiping in the shower conversations. And it just felt like it wasn't authentic as meeting people in person or through friends, which I know does kind of weed out the more inconsiderate people who maybe wouldn't just straight up, like, ghost you because all your communication was like on like an app.
But it was like meeting through like a person and more like personable. Yeah, yeah.
I think that for you it's understanding where your effort is. Do you mind me asking what you do?
I'm a publicist, OK? I own my own PR agency.
OK, I knew I was going to ask you, Mitch, if you're an entrepreneur, so when you own your own business, you're. Used to handling everything, you're responsible for others, you're working for people, you know, if you don't show up, it doesn't get done, right? Correct. OK, so that's manifesting in your personal life.
And if you're not careful, you can get so exhausted from all of the work and the effort.
I believe that you need to get into this idea of receiving and trusting that if you don't get it done, that somebody else will bring around the wagons and offer that phone call or offer that plan.
And until they do, you're going to sit back, chill out and rest. I'm not saying be positive, but this is how you weed people out. You did it before, but you did it as a way of like, oh, they're not making it. So I'm just done as opposed to starting it and really paying attention to I put out a call. Now let's see what I get back.
So, April, you're seeing his drive in his business. There's a direct correlation with his dating approach.
Yes, I would imagine I'm going to take like a wild guess that you were raised to be successful, to be educated. You're diligent, you're hard on yourself. You're a perfectionist. You're a thoughtful person. You're driven like am I am I great?
Really? She's good, right? Because I know she's so good. It's intimidating.
Yeah. It's spilling over into your dating life, Mitch.
That makes sense. I mean, it does make sense if I'm like a go getter, a hard at or like try to really make my business work and make my clients happy and do all that. And then it kind of does spill over into, you know, try to find a guy like making the moves and doing that. But like, sometimes I want to be taken care of, too. I want someone to, like, you know, pull the reins back and, like, take charge on myself for, like, the relationship, you know, just so I don't have to have complete control all the time because I do completely in my professional life.
I get it.
You're talking to to people who are equally as driven in our perspective. I'm backing off these days. Honest.
So, you know, it's like you're checking boxes.
And because of that sort of we call it the driver mentality, you're the driver of all things. And what happens is when you're the driver, you end up getting very hurt and very frustrated by people because you're like, if I don't pick up the ball, no one else will. But it goes with our friendship. That goes with our partnerships. It goes with people we work with. You have to do what you do, but then also have this awareness of, OK, is everybody else around here carrying their weight, too?
And do I trust that if I don't do it, that I'll still receive that phone call?
It's a trust within yourself, not of these guys. It's a trust of like, hey, I showed up. I was real. I was myself. It was a great date. If he doesn't call again next, you know, because you can't manufacture these relationships because what you do is you end up bringing in lazy people into your life and then you're really driving the entire thing the entire way through. And it doesn't make for a happy life because I'm hearing you and I'm thinking, gosh, you know, twenty eight going on.
Twenty nine. You're smart, you're entrepreneurial, you're successful. You got to have more patience. Right now. It feels like it's been four to five years. But if we really broke it apart and we had more time, I bet you you've only been really at this perfect stage of like that next level readiness for maybe the last year.
And you might actually even only be entering it into it now, because when we're truly, truly ready for partnership and we've kind of quieted that voice and we're in our receiving space, that person shows up and you don't need thousands. You really don't. And the dating apps give us this illusion that we have to have deal flow in order to be successful. So for those of us that dated before dating apps, we didn't have that. I didn't get to get in front of thousands of people a month to find my partner.
I was lucky if I saw one guy a month that I liked.
Yeah, but April, we've also overly romanticized for better for worse our past relationships.
Exactly. Exactly. But we knew less. It's kind of like we knew then. It's like the older you get, like you refine your palette, right? So when your palate is refined emotionally, you meet less people, you consume less stuff.
And as Ana so beautifully put it, the romanticizing of the past, more people got to be in our circle when we were younger because we didn't really know what we were doing yet.
So as you get older and as you refine your palate, you become more selective. And when you're more selective, less people are around.
That's part of the plan and it's designed that way so that when you do see the right friends, partners and lovers that they're super easy to spot. There's just not that many because. At your age, Mitch, being an entrepreneur, that also puts you in your own category, so you need somebody who's hard working, you need somebody who's curious, you need somebody who is patient. You need somebody who is into partnership skills. Yeah, not a taker.
Because if somebody is looking to have their whole life planned for them, you're going to be exhausted. You have staff, you have clients, you have all kinds of people you have to worry about all day long.
And if you're anything like me, you worry about your clients Friday night at midnight or Saturday at 3:00 in the morning. Right. We don't have to actually be at work to be concerned about our clients. So for you, it's really putting it out there that you're here now and saying that you're this Midwest transplant because the idea of you going back when you already told us that you love L.A. and that your life is here and your career is here, it's not going to change much of anything, because I think that by being here as long as you have, you may go back and may not find your people anymore.
You've grown exponentially. So give it time, April.
That is a great point. Interesting.
You know, we always look back. It's kind of like how we're all looking at this pandemic, right? We're all saying, I want my life back. I want things the way they were.
And all that does is upset us and frustrate us and really just make us depressed. This is what it is right now. How can we make the most of it? So I say you need at least at least another twenty four months, maybe thirty six here where you don't even think about going home and you say, I am in it to win it and I'm not on any kind of time clock.
And the person I need to be with, since I don't need many because I'm busy anyway, is out there and I'm going to be very selective. I'm going to say who I am, what I'm looking for, and I'm going to engage with people as long as they're smart and all the traits I talked about. Curious, smart. He's got to be partnership skills, meaning he's calling you as much as you're calling him. He's making plans with you as much as you're making plans with him.
And by the way, that has nothing very rarely to do with interest level.
That's just who those people are. Because you've done it right. Mitch, even when you weren't sure that this guy was for you, you were still picking up the phone making plans?
Yeah. When you ante up and you grow your career, a lot of, like, busy professional women feel this way, too, is that the higher they climb, the less they find romance. It's harder, right. The stakes are higher. Things are different. Maybe if you, you know, didn't have your own company, it would be different. The circle would be bigger. Yeah.
Keep in mind that there's still so much time. I just think you're just really hard on yourself.
I might be. I think my generation I mean, I feel like we feel older than we actually are. And we do need to take that into perspective. And yeah, maybe in my thirty years, that's when all I really, truly find someone will.
By the way, I don't think in terms of, you know, then because that's going to make you sad, too, because we want you to have love and attention and affection and adoration now. So just think about it in terms of I'm not going to settle, but I'm going to keep my eye open, my mind open, my heart open. I'm just going to be out there connecting. And along the way, there's going to be one person that I just want to spend more of my time with.
If you frame it that way, it won't be like, oh, I'm going to be in this dearth of activity until it happens, because that's no fun, right? You want to be dating. You want to be connecting with people, but just taking your eye off the prize off the target doesn't mean I would say it.
Just because you're letting go of your grip doesn't mean you're letting go of your dream. It's that grip that makes us angry and frustrated and not cool to date. And it's the open mindedness that says, hey, you know, I'm looking and I'm ready to receive it, but I have no idea what it's going to happen. That's what makes you an easier person to know. And it makes your dating life more effortless and less stress.
Thank you. I know this doesn't sound like practical, tangible advice because, you know, the practical, tangible advice is actually very easy to give. Everything starts with mindset, everything.
April, I'm so convinced you are such a genius. Really. I love your approach of curiosity and confidence and self. It's not self reflection. It's not self determination, but I guess a sense of one's own self worth before you date.
Well, if you think about it, if everybody did that kind of self check, you know, we all look at our cars before we go on long road trips, but nobody looks under the hood of their own self before they start dating.
And then they get kind of pummeled in the wind.
Like if I were let's say I was single right now and I was back, quote unquote, out there, I would have knowledge of what? Of my core values. What is it that I want? What are my deal breakers? What do I have to offer? What's my romantic value? And I would keep my. The list really tight and really simple and I would enjoy I wouldn't be thinking of when am I going to meet them, the people that take their eye off the target, in my opinion, and all of my clients who have actually gotten engaged and married through me, they were the ones that came in with hope, without the grip.
They were the ones that came in and said, you know what? I know who I am and I know what I'm looking for. But let's just try some stuff on. It's the people that came in with this mission of we got to get it done yesterday.
I have literally fall on my face with like I was not successful with those guys. So it is attitude. Yeah.
But the societal pressure that Mitch is feeling, the timeline, I think we all feel and it's hard to dismiss. I think it's 17. I have my regiment lined up. I was going to get married at 27, have a child potentially if I wanted one 30. Of course, things don't work.
I've been divorced twice. I had a child at thirty five and I'm not sure my body can handle the journey again. You know what? I guess I'm stating the obvious that things don't go according to the plan. Yeah.
Do you feel that Mitch? Do you feel that pressure. Definitely. I feel like my generation definitely feels that pressure.
Yeah I think yeah I think you're right. I think that's something to unpack because you said it earlier, we all feel older than what we really are. So it's really just it's about getting perspective back. And perspective is everything. You know, you only need one. And the further along you are and the further along somebody else is, the better you can do. You risk your future because remember, you bring somebody into your life, your heart, your bed, your business, your tangling with somebody so you better know what you're doing right.
You better know who you are. And so the older you get, the closer you are to finding the relationship that's going to stick because you know who you are and that person hopefully knows who they are. And when you do, it's easier to see, like, OK, wait a minute, like this guy is not the right person for me to hang out with and spend any time with.
And that's that selective thing we've been talking about, not being picky, but being really selective. Just ignore the pressure. It's just marketing. It's just advertising and marketing. Hey, Mitch, did we help you?
You definitely opened my eyes to like some new perspectives that I really didn't think to, you know, call myself out on. I go, oh, yeah, I think I'll still take it easy and take it slow and not try to think that I need to compare myself to anyone else. And everyone's path is different and, you know, just continue to try to talk with guys and make plans. And if they don't work out and don't get too hard on myself because, you know, we're all going through different things at the moment and it doesn't mean they were malicious or volatile against me directly.
They could be going through their own thing. One hundred percent, hopefully eventually in the next couple of years, I might find someone who if not, maybe I'll just take a little European vacation and then I find someone there. You never know.
OK, great. Yeah, yeah.
The cool thing is, is that it happens when you least expect. Yeah. You know, that's the best part of all isn't that.
That's true. So but I love it that you're looking because for me companionship is so crucial. I just appreciate your sense of that because I think that's something that, you know, we very much have in common and we like millions of other people.
So thank you so much. Thank you guys so much. Who knows, maybe there's the fellow like San Fran.
Maybe there's somebody in maybe Sydney that's listening. Listening.
Yes, I'm be listening. And then that we get together and get and need to get married. And you're ordained. Oh, my God.
Oh, my God. I want to come. I want to. From April. You're walking down the aisle. Oh, OK. I'll be there.
Actually I can't thank you enough of love talking to you and thank you for talking to us. Thanks, man. Thanks, Jonathan. Good to have a wonderful Ushioda. Welcome you too. But by April.
Thanks again. Thanks. It's such a pleasure.