Happy twenty, twenty one. Dear listeners, today's guest are emotional and Carey Mulligan, you know Emerald from her role as Camilla Parker Bowles in the Crown as a writer and producer of Killing Eve and as the writer, producer and director of Promising Young Woman, which is now one of my all time favorite movies. I am not exaggerating. Anmol deserves at least one Academy Award for this film. Carey Mulligan is one of my favorite actresses and I'll watch anything she's in.
You probably know her from Drive Shame and The Great Gatsby. I can honestly say that her portrayal of Cassie and Promising Young Woman is one of the most amazing performances I've ever seen because we talk a lot about the movie in our interview. I'm going to tell you just enough about it to not spoil anything. You really have to see it. Promising Young Woman is a black comedy and thriller directed, written and produced by Emerald Fennel in her feature directorial debut.
The story follows a woman living a secret double life as she takes revenge against men who have wronged her. The film stars Carey Mulligan, Bo Burnham, Allison Aubrey Clancy Brown, Jennifer Coolidge, Laverne Cox and Connie Britton. I really can't recommend it enough. After talking with Emerald and Carrie, I'm joined again by psychotherapist, best selling author and dear therapist podcast host Lori Gottlieb, who has some expert advice for our listeners. Thank you all so much for sticking with us through this last year.
The podcast has really helped me feel connected, and I'm grateful for so many of you reaching out. If you have a question or a story to share, please visit our website and unqualified dotcom. I really look forward to hearing from you. OK, here's Emerald and Carrie.
Ladies and gentlemen, you are listening to Unqualified with your host unfairest. Hey, my heart is pounding. I'm so honored that you both have taken the time to include me in your press tour. So lovely. All right. So my heart is pounding for these reasons. My fiancee and I watched Promising Young Woman last night and I couldn't sleep. And I was thinking, how do I start off this discussion with you two? And that don't say that it's a perfect movie and don't tell them that Carrie is the most brilliant actress you've ever seen because they don't know you.
But clearly, I can't help myself. And what do you say to these things? So it truly is an honor. Your movie is so brilliant and thank you for making it truly.
Well, firstly, thank you so much for saying that, because obviously when you make something, you just have no idea how it's going to turn out and you hope that people will like it. But when you hear that people do, it's just so amazing. But before that, I have to say, of course, we're talking to you because you are my favorite and I'm sure carries but more specifically, favorite person and actress maybe in the world. My sister Coco and I are over the moon.
We flipped out because honestly, we know every I think probably every word of every film you've ever been constantly the scary movie franchise might as well be the Holy Bible. And your performance in it is exquisite and perfect in every way down to the way you run across a corridor. And I think I probably quote your sort of Britney character from Just Friends more than any other character. Thank you.
Particularly the big speech that I have that everyone tries to say anything serious to me.
I'm coming from you. Thank you. That means so much to me. So I wanted to initially talk about the intense love of a female friendship, especially at particular moments in your lives, because I am a person with few female friends, and especially growing up, I was the kind of person that essentially fell in love with one friend. And I believe that that theme plays, of course, in this movie with Kasey's friendship with Nina. Yeah.
I mean, that was what was such a key into the whole thing, was that, you know, there's no way of coming to this, just thinking about the anger and there's no way of coming to it, just thinking about what she's doing, because you can't wrap your head really around why somebody would do what she does. So you had to start from the beginning. In the beginning was this friendship and was this sisterhood that she had with her best friend, which I had with a friend, which Emerald's had with a friend.
You know, that person when you're 14, who's the center of your universe and you know, all the same references, you watched the same films over and over again. You experience everything together with the first times that that is what Cassie's social journey is about, is this person that you just loved so much and was taken from her and the injustice of that. So we had to emerge and I kind of had to go back to the beginning, figure out who Nina was before starting anything else.
The first thing that comes to mind a bit is wardrobe. And the idea of we first see Cassie in a suit at the bar and then we see sort of a more innocent, colorful palette a bit throughout the movie. And I was entertaining the idea if Cassie was playing different characters, was that in the back of your mind with this?
Yeah, absolutely. It was important. You know, the reason it's kind of set in a sort of Anytown is because it really wanted it to feel like it's your town. We really didn't want to let anyone off the hook. So the first time we see her, she's at the kind of bar that people go to after work. So she's wearing a suit. And then later she's picked up by a guy, kind of indie hipster wannabe guy. And so she's wearing kind of leopard print and kind of cool hair and, you know, tons of eyeliner.
And then, you know, she goes to another bar another night, a lot of contouring, a lot of body count, high pony. So I think part of it is that, yeah, nobody gets left unexamined. It's not like anyone could watch this movie. I would never go to a ballet that I would never pick up a girl like that. Usually in a club with a girl that drunk. There is someone in there who will see that as an opportunity.
And that person very well might not think that that's necessarily bad. They might think it's normal because that's what they've seen. Yes. How we've been socialized. And whatever the idea of personal responsibility.
Oh, God, I'm going to try to not be too dark with this. I was also thinking about we rarely see her fearful in confrontation. In fact, she's empowered in confrontation, which is an amazing choice and decision. Carrie, can you speak to that idea? Did you envision Cassie is feeling nervous at all or is she ready? For her expectations to be met, and so therefore, she's very prepared. Yeah, I think it's sort of detailed preparation that allows her to not really experience nerves.
And I think conviction, the conviction that she has, that she's absolutely right, that justice needs to happen, that she needs to get the right result. And so I think that kind of puts this armor on her. Plus, I think the look, you know, what she chooses to wear and the makeup that she has. And I think all of that is a defense. But what's so great is that you see the true impact of those scenes often afterwards.
You see how she's not the super hero. She does feel and she does feel the adrenaline and the nerves of the experience that she's going through. But she's able to kind of contain it because she's so determined to get the results that she thinks is right. But it's when she sort of has her expectations thrown off, like in the scene with Alfred Molina, who plays the lawyer, and she's expecting him to double down and he doesn't. And I think those are the moments where she's truly vulnerable because it's not the way that she expected it to be.
I love your posture. I love everything about you in the doorway when you see your day of reckoning has come to simplistically to put it.
But I think you consistently surprise the audience with your delivery. In my memory, you're sort of leaning against the doorway and you have a small smile on your face almost throughout a lot of the movie. You deliver these deliciously wicked lines with your beautiful smile and that must have been delicious to play. Is this a character that you miss? I wanted to ask you the same thing about the idea of when you play a character that fulfills something in you, if you miss that idea, if you almost mourn it more out of character.
Yeah, I think the biggest sadness about the whole thing was how quickly it happened so fast. We shot the whole thing in twenty three days. So we were in and we were loving it and we were having the best time and then suddenly it was over. So it's definitely sort of sad to walk away, sad walk away from working with Emerald and Bo and the gracious people. And she was extraordinarily good fun. I've never had as much fun at work as I did playing Cassie, so it made me sort of re-evaluate all the jobs I've done up until now.
Yeah, it was hard to look away from it.
I also wonder, I was thinking about you guys doing this press tour and doing press for the movie and thinking about if you've been getting a lot of questions about your relationship to men and if that bothers you, because to me it feels like is that missing a larger idea?
It's a really interesting thing. When we were first the junkets, because obviously the movie was going to come out in April and then it was curtailed by the pandemic. But I remember the first sort of junket, I was incredibly prickly and defensive. I think the we got so many questions. I particularly, I think got so many questions about whether this was based on something real, whether it had happened to me, whether it happened to a friend. And you know, what question what question to ask someone.
Imagine asking anyone in your life. So first of all, apart from anything else to set it to one side, my answer would always be, if it is, I not going to talk about it in this forum. But I think, secondly, there's a really kind of paternalistic thing which I get to talk about. But I think women are allowed to be memoirists. They're allowed to talk about themselves. They're allowed to write about themselves, about their lives.
They're allowed to notice things. They're not really allowed to imagine things. People don't ask men who write thrillers if they've killed anyone or if they've fantasized about torturing women, whatever it is, whatever thing that a man can come up with, people like, what a terrific imagination. And if you come up with something as a woman, they're like, she must be right. She must have had a very traumatic life. And I think it's this thing that I think we really need to push through very quickly and very fast.
I think partly the reason we made this film is something that was also dark comedy, that was also a thriller that was also fun in order to make it a more open conversation, to make it less nesh. But I think the number of meetings I had before and after this where I would be pitching like, you know, a fantasy set in space and everyone be like, yes, but really I really want to know what it is to be a woman today.
And you're like, well, yes, of course. But what if I'm a woman in space and they're like, no, thank you. I want you to be a woman just like this. And this is a sort of weird thing I think we have where we like we can do stuff. And it sounds incredibly churlish when you are on the junket of the movie, you were allowed with Carey Mulligan and all these amazing people. But I do think we've still have a limited imagination when it comes to women's stories.
I was talking with another podcast guest a couple of weeks ago, and he was talking about his admiration for Philip Seymour Hoffman and how he went against all instinct. And that was his philosophy. I feel like a man gets to do that, at least in my experience. I get, you know, serviceable roles. I'm expected to have a high level of anxiety if I'm acting off of a male lead who's casual about whatever we're supposed to be concerned about.
So therefore, I can't necessarily give a flippant lying delivery or something when my job. To sort of protect a storyline or whatever or to be the vessel for the audience and I love it, that promising young woman sort of bucks that idea. Carrie, did you feel that way in terms of freedom with dialogue? Because there are so many moments.
I mean, when you say that was a real kick in the country, I think, Miles, my favorite line, it was such a great line.
We had to take a poll of everyone in the cruise, moms and dads, because the argument was it was too strong and people wouldn't like it. And I was like, no, but I really think we'll get it. Luckily, editorial assistant asked her parents, who are very sensible, and they were like, no, no, no, it's absolutely fine. Thank you. Emily's parents. Yes. And thank you for writing such a brilliant line.
Thank you. Hey, Carrie.
And I want to ask Emerald the same thing, but because I've never directed I don't know the right questions to ask you, Emerald. So I want to explore that in just a second. But Carrie asking us for very selfish reasons, because I want to learn from you, but your pre production process in terms of how you work on a character and then your day to day as your shooting process, do you have the script memorized before you shoot?
It's changed. I guess it's changed since I used to sort of languish and wallow and have like months and months of sort of delightful stuff. And then I had two kids and then I just felt so tired. So I just needed to survive. I've started to be a lot more structured about how I approach work because, you know, you can't sort of have a delightful six months of walking around parks, listening to music and sort of imagining your character up.
So it's a bit more of a focus then thing. And a lot of this was really figuring out Kasey Nina, who she was before all of this and doing that by talking to Emerald. And I find more than anything on a film having absolute faith that a director is just you can kind of just throw everything else away if you totally trust your director, particularly when you're a director has written the script. I feel like that's just the best thing in the world and always makes you just feel so excited to go to work.
And that was what I had with Emerald. I just knew I could do literally anything on set and she would make sure that it was all right. And that was very, very freeing. So the prep was like I remember saying to Emerald, like, you know, I've got to do an American accent, like, you know, what American accent should I do? And I was like the easiest American accent that you can learn. So I called up my voice coach Tamanac, and I was like, can I please have a general American accent?
And so then I started to work on that. But it wasn't sort of a studious process, much more of a kind of like us just chatting and texting and figuring things out, like as we went along. I want to ask you about the almost your daily process when you shoot, but will you speak to the idea of what Kerry's sweet spots are? They seem like they're all of them.
Yeah, I think that's the thing.
Is that the thing about Kerry, it's impossible to talk to her without sounding like a pervert or fetishise because she's so good and crucially, she's so lovely. There's no nonsense, you know, when you're making something twenty three days and you got a tight budget and you cannot drop a scene, you know, there's just no question of dropping a scene. You to have an actress who's not only supremely talented and well prepared and brilliant, but somebody who will just be that.
I think we've all become very used to this idea that artists have to suffer, that they kind of make everyone else suffer as well, partly, and that that process that they're part in this needs to be protected more than everyone else's. And I think Kerry is sort of just the opposite of that. She's so much a part of the team. She's so much one with everyone, the whole unit. And everyone loves her. And she eats lunch with everyone.
And, you know, she's just on set all the time. So that stuff, just from a practical point of view as a director, gives you time and it gives you certainty that you're going to be able to do stuff practically. But secondly, there's just some people are just supremely gifted and I don't even know scary necessarily knows what she can or can't do. Often she would like a board to take because she didn't like it, but it was one of the best take.
So I learned quite early on that she's very, very inside the scene, completely. So there was never a kind of first second take. It wasn't really kind of a process like that. But my amazing editor, when we were doing the early days, he was like, I don't know what to choose. He's French. I don't know what to choose. Oh, they're also good. I was like, I know what you know what to do.
You know, not a line dropped. And it's just I think that's the other thing is that because she enjoys it, I mean, not to speak for Yukari, but like as you said, she's got two kids. She's got a lovely husband. She's a babe. She doesn't need to do anything. She's got nothing to prove. She's so gifted that she can just do what she wants. And that gives you so much power. It means you've got freedom and she's so free.
You know, I think probably, Carrie, you would disagree and say you're quite neurotic. Maybe. Yeah, but actually, honestly, really not. You're really just a. Person to work with, because you're really good. You can't be happy and worry about it. I assume that with a twenty three day shoot, there might not be a ton of time to linger. And especially Emerald, as you trust Carrie and Carrie, you trust. Was there a lot of conversation or how did you find this tone?
That's such a broad question, isn't it? No, it was. You know, the way that it's written, it is such a tightrope walk. And that's what makes it such a massive achievement that it is the sort of taking myself out of it and not sounding like a narcissistic music. But like I do think it's a perfect film. It is. But like, I'm not you know, it's not about me, but I just do think that there is a real tightrope walk and that there is just no one else could have done it apart from also.
But I think within that, the reason that it works is that there was ongoing adjustments being made in the best way. And that's so much fun when you've got this amazing script that can go in so many different directions. But particularly with my character, the audience was allowed to see if how Cassie was really feeling, particularly in those scenes with the guys and the scenes where there was the kind of confrontation happening, like the degree to which to play that, you know, there's so many ways to go.
And so it was like in between takes try this, try this, try this, push this further, take this back. You know, like Emerald had a little dial on me to sort of dial me up and down. And sometimes she would call me up all the way to the top and I'd go like, oh, fuck, Emerald. I can't. It's too much. But, you know, we had like a real shorthand and that worked really well.
And that was the faith part. That was the part where I was like, oh, I can do the top thing on the dial because Emerald that it be in the film of it shit. She just won't because she's got such brilliant taste. So no, she's not going to let it go in the film if it doesn't work.
It is a perfect movie for many reasons, but one of them in a very important one is that each scene has moments of total deliciousness and it starts with as you are taken home, Carrie, by Adam Brody's character, the opening sequence. And it's revealed that you are sober, you lay this trap and as an audience, we're a little bit behind initially. So, of course, it's a delicious surprise when you say I said, what are you doing in this book?
Oh, fuck. It gives me chills thinking about it.
It's unclear a little bit as an audience if you've harmed these people or not, which is also a wonderful thing to play with, but without giving maybe too much away, I sort of reconciled and I wanted to know if this is accurate with you to that Kasey really is getting something fulfilled out of the look of blind fear on the men's faces that she needs that moment because even as she starts to open herself up to another man, she still goes out on her hunts.
Would you both speak to that a little bit?
Yeah. Do you want to? Yeah. I mean, I think that we always thought of it as a kind of addiction cycle, a cycle of self harm. You know, you see in the movie, Cathy sort of starts by doing this thing that makes her feel better. It makes her feel powerful. It makes her feel in control. And then you see the kind of moments of she's on top of the world and how quickly that turns to shame, self-loathing, despair, then not loathing.
That once again ramps up the need to do it again, to do it again. And it's been the thing that's helped her for so many years because she hasn't looked directly at the things she really needs to look at. And it's interesting, we always talked about her as an avenging angel and she's kind of offering redemption or punishment, but she's got so used to doling out the punishment. I think the thing is, is that, you know, it's interesting when we talk about when she goes out to the clubs, because actually it was really important to us that she's sort of not on a hunt, that she's almost completely inert, that she doesn't do anything, shouldn't say anything.
She's deliberate. So without and we were saying, like, this is the beginning of a rom com. You are in a rom com. It's just that you're the only person with lines which actually, to be fair, in those rom coms, most women it anyway. So, you know, she loves the history once and Anubha and he's like, OK, this is the love of my life.
She gets me Emerald and so speaks to your genius with playing with the audience expectation. It is so fun. It's so fun. And I feel like I could give you an example from every scene in the movie. Well, they all stuck out, but the scene with Alfred Molina is very moving and every scene is unexpected. But I felt very emotional during that scene. And then maybe four scenes later, Cassie's having dinner with her family. And we rewound the scene, I think, three times because I was laughing out loud with my eyes still wet because Jennifer Coolidge, it feels like it takes three seconds for a line of dialogue to go through her ear, to travel to her brain.
And it's such a fucking brilliant choice. And then the scene ends with you sort of unexpectedly laughing, which is sort of a beautiful moment that we hadn't seen. Were you? Tell me about that brief little moment. I imagined that maybe you were laughing in the performance and there was a wonderful decision to keep it in, but will you tell me about that little minutia?
Yeah, I mean, I just couldn't keep my lips together with basically I just couldn't handle it. Just what we don't have in the film is like the other versions of her life that you told us an improvisation, that they are pure gold. Like, honestly, this whole film was just amazing. And I'm bowing down at the altar of ARENAVIRUS the moment, the prospect of comedy like I can cry my eyes out for days, a piece of piss.
But proper comedy is so hard. And working on this film, not only was it like the most fun thing ever to be around people who are comedians, but to watch how they don't crack like Bo and Clancy and Jennifer Coolidge could have done that scene for hours, just spouting like the most absurd nonsense and none of them would have ever loved. But the entire crew, the cameraman was wearing a bandana before covid around his mouth and like wearing a hat down.
It pointed the camera in the direction of the actors and was like looking away, shaking like none of us could. So, yeah, the end of that scene is basically me, just like incapable of being a professional actor.
She has this brilliant like it's almost like everything is sort of mildly incomprehensible to her. Oh, but, Carrie, you're wrong.
You are so funny. That beautiful, unexpected moment of you spitting into the coffee is such a delight, so much fun. You're hysterical throughout. So I disagree with you and you're just going to have to deal with that. OK, fine. It's great to be the straight man, you know, and getting to be the straight man does make you look cooler than you are, particularly when you've got writing like that. You know, Emerald's writing was just chef kiss Emerald.
No, no. Yes, yes. You can't always kick ass over to me. I'm kicking. The thing is, is that Kasey is very funny. She's just very sardonic and she doesn't show off about it. It's just something that she inherently is, which is immediately, I think, why Ryan falls in love with her, because she backs but his kind of self-effacing comedy, little kind of quips in such a deadpan way. But she meets it every time.
And your delivery is just perfection.
Laverne, I can't remember Laverne Cox, his character's name. Forgive me, Gail. Gail, there's a nice scene where Gail is teasing Cassie and those characters and Cassie is sort of nonplussed. She's not absorbing the embarrassment, which is a lovely choice, I think, to she's not bashful. It really says something about how unflappable Cassie is. I feel like I'm describing your movie and I'm hoping that you'll contradict me when I'm wrong.
No, I think Goobang on I think she's taking a bit of pleasure in him being embarrassed as well. And also, Gail is like her one friend. If she can even have a friend, which I don't know if she can have a true friend because, you know, she's hiding so much. But Gail is the one person in the world that she actually, you know, sort of feels safe with. And so I think she takes great pleasure in her making everyone else feel terrible.
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The ending of the movie is the most satisfying thing I've ever seen in my life, and of course, you're gripped like the last 12 minutes of the movie, you're like, fuck, I really, really hope this isn't over quite yet.
I was reading a piece that you did, I believe, a very rare emerald. You speak about your first test screening and the reaction of the audience. And I'm hesitant to even talk too much about this because I feel like you guys have already been peppered with, like, the pressure of does this movie have to fulfill everybody's desires or even questions like, what are you trying to say?
I want to know more about your annoyance with these ideas. God, it's so hard, isn't it?
It's so hard, because I think the thing is, is that you can't have your cake and eat it. But if you're like me and you're really greedy and you like cake, you want to. I think the truth of it is there was a version of this movie that would appeal to everyone, I guess. And we all know what that movie is. And I think that what I wanted to make and what I think Kerry signed on to do and what everyone's gonna do is make something that felt real, certainly felt real to me, and it felt honest to me.
But it is absolutely OK that some people will watch it and it won't feel real to them because they experience things in different ways that I do think, as you say on it, it's a difficult one, because, again, I think if you make something, if you make a film about anything that isn't just blah, I think the burden of expectation for it to be perfect in every way for it to absolutely take everyone's box is quite overwhelming. I think the thing is, is that often you get I think a lot of the conversation is why didn't they do this?
Or I think it would have been much better if you'd done this and you find that a movie or a song or TV show, whatever it is, will be judged against the thing in the person's head who is watching it that they would have preferred. I completely get that because I've experienced that as an audience member and as a fan of stuff. But I think what I'm now trying to do is like detach with love and say we made something quite complicated and therefore some people will find it distasteful or they won't like it or they won't get it.
And I just have to be fine with that. There's something about being such a supreme people pleaser that the idea of literally not everyone in the world loving it is very, very hard for me. But obviously that would be insane to expect. That's another thing. But, you know, it is a bit like taking your top off in the street and being like, what do you think of my dad?
And not that I want to, like, focus too much on the gender shit that you guys have probably had to talk a lot about. But I do think there is a greater expectation. Maybe it's not intentional, but there's a higher degree of pressure in my perception that women should be able to cover all those bases or even just the idea of getting asked the question of like, what are you trying to say? Like, I personally loved Kacey. I would want her as my best friend.
Can I ask you both a couple of life questions that don't really have anything to do with the movie, please?
Yeah. All right. If you could live anywhere in the world for a year, where would it be? Oh, I like the idea of a tiny cottage.
I've never been to Vermont, but the idea of Vermont with hot chocolate and snow and a cabin and a plaid blanket, I'd like to be there with no phone and no Internet.
I feel the same way about like the Cotswolds or something. Yes. Yeah, probably similar. Yeah. Kerry, is that isolation like. I don't know. I've sort of done isolation this year. I feel like we live in the country anyway. So get me the fuck out of here. I want to go to a city. Where can I go? Somewhere with tall buildings and lots of smog. My kind of isolation would be a place where I couldn't speak the language and I was just completely if out water like as an experience, you know, to be honest, what this year has taught me is that I basically just like country life and don't need a huge amount else from being at home.
I'm like one of the very few people who really couldn't care less. All the restaurants and bars are closed because I don't have any. It's fantastic to have an excuse not to do anything. I love it. I'm with you.
What is a trait you dislike in others? Oh, pompousness stubbornness. What's a trait you dislike in yourself, Know-It-All? Oh, but you do though. I'm good.
But you always say. But you do.
What's the word. You just like overthinking what other people think of you.
It's fucking anxiety that I would love to be the kind of person that cares less about what people think of me, but I think that would be an impossible element to remove from myself. All right. Let me ask you another question. What is your favorite rainy day movie, Notting Hill?
Oh, that's yeah, that's good. I was going to go down the Richard Curtis route as well. Heat.
Oh, wait, no, no heat. I sorry, I did not mean heat, but it was an interesting choice. I didn't know, but I. Michael Mann, I don't mean he I mean, he's a great film, but I'm fucking hell. What is the film with Keanu Reeves and Sandra Bullock on a bus? It's not a guilty experience. I knew it was a one word title. Speed is what I meant, not hate. That would be a sad day when you thought you got speed.
What about what occasion do you lie?
If it would hurt someone's feelings not to. Yeah, that's it. I mean, I really only go in for white lies, but, you know, going backstage after you've seen someone's play slash movie, you just cannot go back and be honest in those situations. You have to say that it was a masterpiece.
What's the best advice you've been given or a piece of advice that has stuck with you?
My father's thing is time spent and reconnaissance is never wasted. And actually making this film with no time, you've just got to preplanned. So you turn up on the day and you kind of know what you're doing. It was very useful. It's very annoying when he text it to me sort of 4:00 in the morning at random.
But that's a loving father, though. Yeah, I assume, Emerald, unless you have a very contentious, horrible relationship with your father. No, he's very cruel. It's more of a threat than Episcopals.
Oh, gosh. Advice people don't really dolar out very much. My friend has a tattoo that says don't sweat the small shit, which I quite like. And I often have to kind of hold that in my mind. But yeah, probably that when I was maybe 17 or 18, I was auditioning for a Tom Stoppard play that I didn't understand. But I was at a place in my life where I did not think I was good enough to make it as an actor.
But I was auditioning for this play. And this older actor who worked in Seattle afterwards said, Hey, kid, how to go? And I said, you know, I don't know. And he said that thing that you probably have both heard. He said, well, you know, if you can do anything else, you should do it. I was also told, which is probably good advice, that I should stop bleaching my hair and I would be taken more seriously as an actor if I was a brunette.
And I think they might be right. Oh, man.
No, see, that is just nonsense. But again, it's this thing, Nigel, but a lot, especially when we talk about this film, it's like, why on earth would you be less serious if you have blonde hair, one earth? Would you be less serious if you wore beautiful clothes or you had a manicure? Like, who cares? Why can you only be serious and brilliant if you're wearing sensible coat? Yeah, it's just bullshit.
When I dye my hair black for the first two scary movies, I would go out for fewer roles, but they were better roles and people would just absorb me in a different way. I didn't get as much attention. Men treated me differently. I think they assumed that I was a more serious, slightly more brooding personality, like bubbliness wasn't totally expected out of me. So there was a liberation in that emerald. I love it that you're like covering.
You know, I'm just so I just think of how brilliant you are and thank God that you fought through it. It's just astounding to me that that's what it comes down to so recently. You know, if you have dark or serious and if you're blonde, you're sort of bubbly. Babe, it's mad.
I was always confounded when I first moved to Hollywood about the rigidity between, like comedic and dramatic actors. It felt very fluid to me. And Carrie, you exemplify that Emerald. I have something that's been on my mind for a little while in terms of the crown. Forgive me if you don't mind. Of course not the crown not to use the idea of a soothing balm again, but it has been that maybe more so for Americans because we're distant.
But I wanted to know your thoughts about judgment of characters you're playing.
You know, what's so funny about the Crown is I think this most recent series is sort of kind of been in the news. I think when you sign on as an actor for anything, as you guys know much better than me, you know, it's not real completely. And so I kind of naively came into it thinking I thought it would be a really interesting character. I like that she seemed so normal that she wasn't interested in the whole thing.
And I kind of haven't maybe thought about it as deeply as maybe I should have done because, yes, it's quite interesting, tiny insight into what must have been going on at the time, I think, because people are quite enraged about it's.
And do you mind here in Los Angeles, we don't have a great idea of how Brits are reacting.
Oh, well, there's been talk I think the culture minister of England said that it should have a health warning in front of it, saying that it was fiction. What? Oh, I didn't know that. Yes. So it's been kind of in the news. And so that kind of stuff is obviously quite alarming because me and George never who play Diana and Charles and Camilla sort of like obviously we're actors. We just have no idea what we're doing.
And so it's kind of funny. But I probably would defer to you guys because I certainly haven't been in enough high profile stuff that people really. Mine, by the way, but, ya know, this year has been quite strange. I don't know, I've definitely played unlikeable, crazy characters, but I've always loved them. I think that that's important. And I don't know if you both agree.
Yeah, I played a character a couple of years ago in a film called Wildlife, where I'm a sort of 50s housewife, got married really young, and then my husband has sort of a mid-life crisis and decides to go and fight this wildfire and sort of leaves overnight just Paxon's bargain to get paid. Nothing to fight this wildfire. And my character, GeoNet sort of just loses it and says, like, what the fuck? First of all, I'd like to go fight a wildfire, but I can't because I've stay here and look after our kid and how am I going to make money now?
And, you know, she has no jobs over the course of a week. She sort of has a bit of a dalliance with this local millionaire. You know, it gets a bit drunk. And the reaction to the character was so extreme for people. When we went to Kentucky and Q&A and some of the critics saying, like, what a despicable person and how could she treat her son and expose them to all this? And it was confounding.
I couldn't wrap my head around why people were so angry in response to her. And I totally liked her and loved her and understood everything she was doing.
And it puts you in a very odd position to have to defend a fictional. Yeah. Or the expectation that you're supposed to defend a fictional character.
I mean, when I did, I kind of said, like, you don't hear anyone having a massive go at the Jake Gyllenhaal character who like bugged out and went to go fight a fire and abandoned his wife and child like no one had an issue with that and, you know, was just kind of archaic views on a woman's motive and how they should behave. And I think we're just not used to seeing women misbehaving or not sort of living by the rules of, like sexy girlfriend or supportive wife to the great man, like we have so inundated with those kind of characters.
But I enjoyed it so much it didn't bother me. And if anything, I'm more interested in playing characters that people might not necessarily feel warmly towards. Not that I want to play villains, but there's no part of me that wants to go and play the wife to be like genius inventor who just sort of like stays at home and congratulates them for being remarkable, like, absolutely not.
Can I put you to something that I think we should do someday? Yes. Emerald. Yes. And effective. Yeah, it's yes. You're going to be doing the heavy lifting here. That's fine. It's done. OK, the three of us are cousins of Tiffany Trump.
We're like the outlier. We're trying to climb in that world at Mar a Lago. Yes. What do you think?
I genuinely think that especially during the hood, I think it's itching because I want to immediately right it. Let's do it all on you. I can hear the smack of the mules. Oh my God. Against those heels by the pool. Can't use the like clackety clack. I can smell those burgers. I mean, I'm in Emerald.
This is what makes you such a brilliant director, like the snappin of Cassie's gloves, the little flowers, of course, the hot with the ketchup. There are so many moments with set design and wardrobe. It is so thoughtful and deliberate and at times confounding, but we so embrace it as an audience. This is a perfect movie. Please know that it truly is. My heart was racing so much before this. I'm sweating. I just love you both and I cannot wait for people to embrace this movie.
And congratulations to two fucking brilliant people.
Thank you so much. God, I'm going to have that person a tattoo and it's going to be on my whole back.
Well, let's do a Trump movie and just make each other feel good all day long. Yes. Done. Yes, please. Come on. I thank you so much. Thank you. I love you both truly.
And thank you for making such a fucking brilliant movie. Thank you so much. Thank you for having us on your amazing podcast.
Bye. You guys have a wonderful yesterday by.
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So get started today at b t t e r h e l p dot com. Slash f a r s. There is no shame in asking for help. Hey, everyone, I am happy to welcome back psychotherapist Lori Gottlieb. Lori is The New York Times best selling author of Maybe You Should Talk To Someone, writer of the weekly Dear Therapist Advice column in the Atlantic and co-host of the Dear Therapist podcast on I Heart Radio. You can learn more about Lori and our other experts on our Web site at unqualified dotcom.
Hi, Laurie, it's so nice to see you again. Hi, Ana. It's great to be back. Thanks so much for doing this. OK, let's call Bianca. Hi. Hi, is this Bianca? It is. Hi. You're here with myself, Anna, and Lori Gottlieb, who is a psychotherapist. She's the author of The New York Times best seller. Maybe you should talk to someone. And Bianca, we're really happy to talk to you.
I honestly thought that this was a joke. I'm just going to leave that off. I thought that my friends were punching me.
They're like, you're obsessed with this podcast, Bianca. Will you tell us what's going on?
So I started off 20, 20 with a bang. My ex-girlfriend and I broke up. We'll just call her Molly. And we broke up literally January 5th. Twenty twenty. I mean, the beginning of the year. I really loved her. She was the first person that I really opened up to. I was vulnerable with the relationship. Didn't last very long. It was a little less than six months. But we were friends before we got into a romantic relationship and she was just kind of my everything for a while.
And when it broke up, it really shattered me.
And it really I'm so sorry.
I went into therapy. I was really depressed and I'm a natural introvert. And so it just caused me to kind of worry myself and I'll hold for a little bit, you know. And during the course of that breakup, I really leaned on my friend Jill, we had known each other for like five or six years. She was my mentor when I worked under her. And she was just somebody who I really leaned on. And during the course of the last five, six years, she was kind of my person.
And then when Molly and I broke up, the first person that I called was Jill, and it seemed like she was all that surprised. I came to find out later that it's because Molly and Jill, we're talking like as a friendly talk. I didn't know this at the time, but during the January to March, I found out more and more things like they were hanging out behind my back and neither of them told me. Jill never told me that they had like a really serious friendship going on.
I found out through work colleagues and people that I didn't even know that they were out to lunch. They were having sleepovers. Jill was at her apartment having like a pool party, you know. And so I came to her like the beginning of February. And I said, listen, I understand if you want to maintain a friendly relationship with her, but be honest with me. How deep is your friendship? Because I love you. You know, we've been friends for so long.
Just be honest and still maintain that they were just kind of friends, that they were friendly, that Molly was like leaning on her because she was also having a difficult time. And I was like, OK, if that's what it is, then that's what it is. And that obviously was what it was, because I found out more and more things and there was a time where we were driving down from a work event and I saw them text messaging.
And then so I went to her again and I was like, be honest, how deep is this friendship? Just be honest with me. And she told me the same story. And so finally, it was around March. I was out on a bike ride at the time, Jill was moving out of the house and it was like the big point of contention for her. And for weeks I was like, girl like, give me a call.
Like, I'll get a pickup, I'll drive a U-Haul, you know, I got you. And she was like, No, no, I got this. I can figure it out on this ride. Right. I saw Molly's car in front of the house and I was like, OK. So I called Jill when I got home and I was like, what is going on over at your house? That somewhere? And she was like, Molly's helping me know.
And I was like, Can you just be honest with me? Finally, it's been like three months. Can you just tell me what's going on? I didn't say anything. Really? Really? Yeah. She kind of recoiled and just was like, well, I don't really know what delving into a friendship, I don't really know. And I was like, you've been treating me like an inconvenience for the last three months. I've gone to you twice and told you about my feelings.
You know how hard that is for me. And you're still sleeping my feelings under the rug. And I don't give a hoot what your friendship with her is, what I don't feel seen and heard in our relationship. I'm not crazy. Like, just tell me. And she just didn't say anything during the phone call. And so I said, you know, I think that it might be better if we just didn't talk for a while and we haven't spoken since.
You haven't spoken since March, is that correct? Oh, I'm sorry.
Okay. My question is that we live in a small town. We work in the same field. We have the same plan. And for the last eight months, my friends have been so considerate and so nice. But I was at a point where I could give Jill like I forgive both of them. I don't want to hold in any more resentment, but I also don't want to have my friends told this weird line of like, well, we can invite one and we can't break the other.
And it's going to be awkward. Like, I'm fine with her. I don't care. I just don't want it to be weird when I'm at a social event. And she fell. So I don't want any resentment and animosity. I don't know if I'm making, you know, you are well.
But the problem is I feel like, Bianca, there's a big chunk of information you may be missing because this feels inexplicable to me.
Well, right. I mean, I feel like you keep saying to her, just be honest with me. And when you go to somebody and you say, just be honest with me, that the more important question is why is it hard to be honest? You know, when you kind of say to somebody, just tell me the truth. There's a reason that she didn't want to tell you the truth. There's a reason that on that last phone call, she got very quiet.
You know, when you said, just tell me what's going on. She does not want to tell you what is going on. Yeah.
I mean, my friends have speculated as to what that chunk of information is. What do they think it is? They think that they were sleeping together.
It sounds like there's some kind of deeper relationship there, whether it's a romantic relationship or a sexual relationship. There's something going on there because why would she have to keep it a secret from you? The other part of it is that it sounds like while you were dating Molly, that Jill was already friends with her, unbeknownst to you. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. So it's really strange that she wouldn't just say I'm friends with your girlfriend, too, or I went to lunch with your girlfriend.
Right. If there wasn't something that she was trying to hide.
Yeah, I don't know. I really don't. And our relationship ended so abruptly. I mean, the relationship with Molly, I came home and suddenly it was over. I had no clue.
Bianca, did Molly tell you why you said it happened suddenly, but did she give you a reason?
Not particularly articulate one. What was the inarticulate one? It was that she had changed. Our relationship changed. And I want to preface this by saying, Molly, she always made me feel insignificant because I can never be like her ex girlfriend. And so during our inarticulate conversation, I guess I just thought that I'm not your ex girlfriend and that's what you wanted. And this isn't working because I'm not like her. I never thought that Jill was that part of the equation ever.
Bianca, did you introduce Jill and Molly? Yeah. So. Oh, gosh, I always think about I. Think about heartache as when you're incredibly homesick, there's that physical pit that gnaws away at you, and I think we also romanticize relationships, maybe for better or for worse. But then you mention some of the issues that you and Molly had, which I think is good to remember as you move forward in life.
You know, you're right. And I think there's so much grief and loss associated with breakups and people think, oh, it was just a breakup or it was only a few months, you know, can I really be feeling this profound grief? But you can. And she's got it doubly so because she's lost her friend, too. So there's the heartbreak of the romantic relationship. There's the heartbreak of losing the friend, but then there's the betrayal. There's some kind of betrayal going on because people were not being honest with you and they're still not being honest with you.
You know, I don't think Molly was really honest with you about why she broke up with you. She couldn't articulate what was really happening. But the other side of this is that when you look at how you were treated by both of these people, I think it's important to notice that with Molly, the whole time you were together, she was comparing you to other people you painted. This is like your best relationship ever. You said you were more vulnerable in this relationship than you'd ever been before.
I think when we choose to be vulnerable, we have to choose our audience. Well, and I don't think you chose your audience well, that Molly was not a good person to be vulnerable with because she she wasn't creating that space for you. You know, she wasn't making you feel safe. So you already weren't safe and then you were being vulnerable with her. So I think it's a good thing that that relationship ended. But that doesn't mean that you don't miss her and that you don't miss aspects of the relationship.
And I think with Jill, it might be a good thing, too, that that relationship is where it is, because she couldn't say to you, I'm in this quandary. I really care about our friendship. And I also really want to have whatever she wanted to have with Molly. And she went behind your back to befriend her while you were dating even is very strange not to even say Molly is also my friend. Whenever you probably talked about your relationship with Jill, she never said, by the way, I want you to know I'm also hanging out with Molly.
She never said it once. And I would have been products that friendship because I was with somebody that I love. I would have been like, great, wonderful. But instead, it was kind of like this hidden away secret that I wasn't even a part of and I was with both of them.
Hey, Bianca, are there other party members involved? Was Jill in a relationship like are there other reasons? Are you alone in sort of like not understanding this, or do you think that there are other people that they maybe are hiding things from as well?
Jill was married. Oh, no longer know they got a divorce this year.
OK, so I guess they needed to potentially, if they are in a relationship, potentially hide from a lot of people.
Bianca, here's what I think. You're in a position where you see Jill with some degree of frequency, is that correct? Yeah. In group events of about how many people?
Usually about five or six. So she's in my circle of friends, but she's also best friends with my boss. And we are a very small group of of professionals and we work almost in tandem with each other. And so I see her, whether I like it or not, on will call in person. She'll come to my office and have our long talk sessions with my boss. I literally feet away from my boss's office so I can hear them speaking and she'll have lunch with my boss.
It's like I don't exist that I.
And mad, but I'll get over it and I'll talk to her eventually because I'll get over it when you say you'll talk to her eventually, maybe now is the time to talk to her, because I think that you're in a situation that's just going to make you feel really bad, really kind of tossed aside. And part of it, just because you told her, listen, I think we should take a break from this friendship, but you never really talked about what happened between you.
She's probably not going to take responsibility for what she did. So I wouldn't go in expecting that. But I think just for you, no matter what she does, that it might be helpful if you could have a conversation with her and say, listen, it sounds like a lot of stuff was going on. You probably had whatever reasons you had for not telling me. I don't know what those were. I felt very confused by it. I wish you would tell me what what was really going on and more importantly, why it was so hard to tell me.
That's the part that I really want to know is why, given our five year friendship, it was so hard for you to just be honest with me. And if she can't do that, maybe you just let her know. Listen, I'm I'm sad. I miss our friendship. And I'm sorry that things happened the way that they did. But what can we do together to make this less awkward, given that we see each other?
I just push back on that slightly because I have gone to her now three times with the same feelings and emotions. And I fully agree with you that I don't think she'll ever take responsibility. But I think going to her a fourth time, it would be ceding the idea that I need her in my life and I don't I'm fine without her. I'm fine without our relationship. I guess what I'm trying to say is there's a part of me that just wants to move past it so she can be in my orbit.
And I don't really have to emphasize our friendship or relationship. She's just somebody there like a lamp.
I wonder if you can treat her as though she is just another coworker that you're friendly to. Maybe that's the baby step to helping you redefine your relationship and maybe stepping back from the pressure of returning to what you had maybe helpful for you. I don't know if when you guys see each other, if there is palpable tension that other people pick up on or not. But if that can be diminished, I think that would help both of you, because I don't know how to get to the bottom of exactly what is happening between those two.
And I also don't know how necessary the search is at this point to find that. Lori, do you think I'm on to something?
I do think that it's not going to feel this way. I do think that you're going to feel a lot better. You're going to feel a lot more comfortable. It's not going to have this intensity or this weight. You know, when people try to pretend that they don't feel something, it's harder to get past something. I'm not saying that you should go to her and try to get to the truth. She's not going to tell you the truth.
Probably what I'm saying is to say, listen, we had this long friendship. I don't know why it was really hard for you to tell me what was really going on. Maybe you want to tell me. Maybe you don't. It's not so important now, but here we are. And I just want to let you know that our friendship meant a lot to me. And I was confused by what happened. And I hope that we can have a balanced co-worker relationship right.
Where it's not so awkward. And then I agree with Ana when you see her. Hi, Jill. Just friendly, but you're not trying to reestablish a friendship with her. I don't know that you could or would want to, given that she doesn't seem like the kind of person that is ready for a real mature friendship. No, you're totally right.
I do listen to the podcast. I think back to the episode with April buya talking about you want a tight circle of friends you can really rely on and trust. I know I can't trust Jill anymore. I mean, not in the way that I used to. So, yeah, no, you're completely 100 percent right.
And I can only imagine how hard it is for you to see her at work. It is.
I mean, we work in a high tension environment as it is. And so the idea that there would be interpersonal tension on top of work, tension is tough.
And I think for you personally, I imagine that when you think about going to work and seeing her there and just seeing her walk in or see her talk a few feet away, you know, with your boss, that you just get this knot in your stomach because you see her approaching or you hear her voice. I think having this conversation with her kind of diffuses some. Some of what you're holding in all by yourself and it's a calm conversation, not blaming her, you're seeking knowledge in reality because what happened is you've got gas lit.
You know, she tried to make you think something wasn't happening that really was happening, whatever it was. And you start to feel crazy because you're like, wait a minute, reality does not match what she is saying. And so now for yourself, you can say, listen, for some reason you weren't able to tell me what was really going on. I just want to let you know I really appreciated our friendship up to that point. I was very confused by what happened.
But, hey, here we are. We're co-workers. And, you know, let's move on. And I think it gives you some power, you know, that you're not hiding away, that you can talk to her. It's a short conversation. You don't want anything from it which gives you power. You're not wanting a friendship from her. You're not wanting anything from her, but you're acknowledging the truth. And that gives you power. You know, when you see her, you do treat her like a coworker.
Hey, Jill, you know how we would treat any co-worker and that will minimize some of the tension for you, too. And it will give you a lot of practice and kind of recalibrate so that when you see her, eventually she will feel much more like a co-worker, even though there will always be that little pain point. But it becomes much less over time.
Yeah, you really gave me something there because I was so preoccupied with this idea that she would continue to have power over me that I didn't think that having conversation with her that I would be able to take that power back. Well, right.
Because she's holding all of the power in what's unsaid between you right now.
Yeah, that makes sense to me. It's a way for you to be proactive and it will probably lessen the hurt as well.
Oh, yeah. And I want to say to that, once you develop friendships with people who are trustworthy and once you get into a relationship with someone who's really worthy of you, this is going to matter so much less. This is going to really go away. It'll be really part of the background. I think it's because you don't have that other experience right now. And so there's a lot of focus still on the end of the relationship, the end of the friendship.
But once you surround yourself with really trustworthy friends, one or two friends who are really trustworthy, you find a relationship where you're not being compared to the exes. The person is really very present with you. You're going to feel very differently about this. You're going to feel such a sense of relief that these people are not occupying your emotional real estate.
And Bianca, the weird thing is, if you can act like you are letting this go and moving forward, eventually it will happen. But then the fucked up thing is Molly and Jill might come back to you in a weird way. That's the way people work sometimes. What do you think, Lori?
I think that what happens is sometimes toxic people come back to you when you get healthy.
Funnily enough, Molly did just message me literally this week. She sent me a text message reaching out after six months of not speaking. What did the text say? She said, hey, I hope you're well. The pandemic hasn't been easy on me. And I would like a friendship or I would like to continue talking to you. And I ignored it and I deleted it. I don't know if that's right or wrong, but that was my evidence quite well.
So when we talk about power again and this is sort of emotional power, the emotional power might be to not re-engage in any kind of relationship with Molly because of the way she ended the relationship. It wasn't respectful, it wasn't honest, and it wasn't respectful and the way she treated you in the relationship. But I think that it might be worth hearing what she has to say, because it might give you more perspective where you've personalized so much of this.
You might hear how much of this really is her and was her. And it also give you an opportunity to just listen and let her know that you didn't appreciate the comparison. She didn't appreciate the way she ended the relationship. It's fine to end a relationship, but you didn't feel there was a lot of trust and honesty. And so you're not really interested in in re engaging in that kind of relationship with her? I don't know.
I worry if Bianca lays herself out in a vulnerable way. I don't know, Gloria, that part scares me.
I mean, I would say, listen, I'm not interested in getting back together, but if there's something that you want to say to me, I'm happy to hear it. And she says it and you don't excuse it. You don't say things like, you know, when people apologize and people say, oh, no, it's OK, it's fine, it's OK. It was not OK. But you can say, thank you for apologizing. I really appreciate that.
That means that you forgive them. You accept the apology, but you're. Not letting them off the hook for what they did, a lot of women do this, they're like, oh, no, it's fine, it's OK. No, just just say thank you so much for the apology. I appreciate it. And then you have so much power because you're like, yeah, I deserved that apology. I'm taking it in. I forgive you.
I really do deserve an apology. You know, I deserve at least some acknowledgement that I went through something.
And I also think there's this illusion that somehow when there are breakups or ends to friendships, that we want this thing called closure. And I think closure is an illusion completely. And so I think what happens is that you can have these two conversations and their one time conversations. It's not this long drawn out. Let's excavate everything because you're not interested in being in relationship with these people. They're not treating you well. They haven't treated you well. They're not truth tellers.
And it just is very hard to go back and try to try to trust in those situations. And so I think these conversations will help you to gain some perspective. And the purpose of them is not to rekindle these relationships, but to give you a sense of perspective that you can carry into your healthier relationships going forward, that you can really not personalize it as much. You can feel like I listened. I had the conversation. I accepted an apology.
Even though I didn't condone the behavior, I didn't tell them it was OK. I wasn't angry in the conversations. It was very calm. And it gave me information that is really helpful for me as I move forward and find the people in my life who are going to be more nourishing. Yeah, Beanca.
I've let people back into my life.
Perhaps I shouldn't have because I like to feel at peace with things, but then I quickly realize that I shouldn't have.
And it was right to end things the first time. No matter what happens, I think you will learn from this and be stronger from it.
The healthier you are, the more healthy the people are who are attracted to you.
Lori, at some point we should have like a two hour long conversation about the myth of closure.
Yes, absolutely. It would be one thing if Jill came back and said, listen, I've done a lot of soul searching and I realize that I wasn't truthful with you, that I denied things that were happening, that that must have been very confusing for you. It was a betrayal. It was dishonest. And, you know, there's is the start of something where maybe there's a possibility all of these months Jill has done nothing to reach out to you.
She has done nothing to say, hey, I've really thought about this. Can we talk about it? I've seen no evidence of that. So I just don't see why you would spend so much time thinking about, you know, is she going to come back, find better friends?
Oh, man. You had like a double whammy of a dear friend and a girlfriend.
I have to say, I think it's really hopeful because I feel like this is the moment where Bianca gets to say, wait a minute, I got a taste of relationship and what felt really good, but also what felt really bad. I had this friendship that turned out to be something other than what I thought it was. And now I am really clear about what I want, what I need, what my standards are for my relationships, what it looks like to be respected, what it looks like to have honesty between us.
And I'm going to go find that. And I think that that because she's getting much more clear about that, she's so much closer to finding that. And I think getting involved again with with Molly and Jill is just is going backward. It's like a pull back into this toxic swamp.
Yes, I completely agree. We have a limited time on this earth. Right. Don't waste your precious time with people who are not your people. Those were not your people. They might have seemed like your people, but they're not in your learning so much more about how to be much more discriminating about finding the right people. Your standards are going to be higher. Your radar is going to be much more on target. Bianca, I hope this has helped a little.
Oh, tremendously. Absolutely. It provided me with more perspective about the situation that I have been searching for. Oh, God. Since it happened. Oh, good.
Yeah. I think so many people are going to be hearing this and nodding their heads because they've had some version of this happen in their lives. Yeah.
Before I let you guys go, I just want to thank you for all of the grace and the love and thank you for letting me be heard and all of the wonderful advice. I'm so grateful. Oh, Bianca, that is so kind.
Thank you so much for sharing. All right. Bye bye. Bye, Vanke.
Bye. Thank you so much, Laurie. I so appreciate your time.
You are so wise, of course. And happy New Year. Happy New Year. Thank you so much, Laurie.