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Hey, everyone, today's guest is the amazing Kate Mara, you know her from House of Cards, American Horror Story, The Martian and her new show, A Teacher. Kate and I were both in Brokeback Mountain. And it was kind of a relief to find out that she was just as nervous as I was after talking with Kate. I'm joined again by dating expert, coach, matchmaker and one of my favorite people, April buya. April is the founder of Level Connections and has over 20 years of experience helping people make meaningful connections and find love.


Once again, thank you all for your kind reviews and comments. We really want to hear from you, so please reach out. Just go to unqualified dotcom and look for the link. OK, now here's Kate.


Ladies and gentlemen, you are listening to unqualified or their most unfairest. Kate, I can't thank you enough for doing this. I was so excited to have you on. It's been ages since I've seen you. How are you? I feel like it's been like 15 years or something.


You're so sweet to take the time to do this. As a fellow mom, I would be like, I can't fucking take an hour off.


Well, they're outside playing right now because it's not too cold. Then escape.


Good, good, good, good, good. I hope it will be fun. Is there a possible summation that you could give us over the last six months?


You know, I think probably like a lot of people and maybe a lot of people with kids, I feel like the beginning of the lockdown quarantine was definitely scary, but we sort of felt like, oh, we can do this and we're going to, like, thrive. We're going to be like, amazing at staying home.


And also, you get to spend time together as actors. You know, someone's always gone. And we had a one year old, so we were like, this is a really bonding thing. My husband, Jamie, he all of a sudden, like, started cooking every night because he was terrified to order any food.


Suria, you know, because of the virus. And I can't cook to save my life. So it actually was like this sort of honeymoon period of like, oh, we're doing great. Like, I don't know, this is kind of amazing. Everyone's healthy and, like, happy. And then, I don't know, five months in, Jamie doesn't want to ever open, like, a cookbook again. We want to order pizza every night. And, you know, then it got depressing.


Now we're sort of out of the depression, I think probably because we're. You're away out of L.A.. Yeah, you're out of L.A.. Yeah. And he's working.


So it feels like, oh, maybe life is sort of moving on now, you know what I mean? Yes, I do.


But I think that it's crazy for us to be thinking that, though. I mean, it does feel like, man, she came back. Yeah, I can't believe I just feminised covid you did.


What the hell? Where the fuck is wrong with me? How dare you? We were one of those people that bought like a camper van. Yeah. Early on.


But there was this odd thing of I was thinking about this earlier today and I don't know if you felt the same way when you went to New Mexico, but we would drive through Oregon, Northern California into Washington. And it felt to me like like the zombies are coming. Like we were bringing the early warnings because we've been in lockdown since March 14th. And I know it sounds maybe like a simplistic thing to say, but it's kind of striking to be a part of a society that's handling this differently.


And I think that we're at a closer place to cohesion, I hope. But like when we would stop at gas stations or whatever, it felt like we would tumble out of this filthy minivan wearing our masks like they're coming. Guys, you don't fucking understand your mask. Mocking doesn't even hurt me because, yeah, you have a where you've been.


But it's been interesting how I mean, a couple of people swore at us. Really? Yeah. Oh, wow. You know, this was probably back in like May or June, but yeah, this guy told us to take our fucking masks off. My fiancee was like, hey man, you don't want what we have.


Oh, that's a great response. Oh, my God. I think it did come back. It sounds like a catch.


Yeah. Is that Kate? I love your show. Thank you. And I feel like not to get to, I don't know, erotic, but. Oh, please do.


All right.


I feel like a fundamentally a pretty essential sexual person. I enjoy sex, but it's really hard for me to do anything sexual on camera like exposure of that side of me. It makes me feel like.


But does it make you feel vulnerable doing that?


It makes me feel like I'm not good, like I'm not a good lover, like I'm not good at it. I'm thinking too much about my body or my brain. Yeah. Yeah. Well, because it's so awkward. I mean, it's the most awkward thing ever.


But your show is really steamy. OK, Kate, you play a teacher, an English teacher at a high school and you're a klepto.


Well, I mean, she stole one chapstick. I don't know. Is that a klepto or is that just a one time, you know, mistake?


I think so.


I think that moment in the very first episode where she steals the Chapstick is just like a glimpse into where she sort of is in her life. She's trying to find some kind of excitement or she's trying to feel alive in some way because she's maybe lost or unsatisfied or whatever.


What I liked about that was that I like that she confesses to her husband. You know, she's like trying to bond with him, but it doesn't work because he's then like, what are you doing? Which then immediately makes her, you know, go internal again. I feel like it's very human. You know, you do something secretive and like for yourself, and then you try and bring in your partner and then you get embarrassed or shut down.


And so then not that that's a reason to then. Go have an affair with your student, but do you know I'm saying you can see how yeah. Know how it all sort of starts to crumble a little bit.


I think it's an interesting moment, though, because as an audience, it's nice to keep that mystery to you because it makes us feel like, oh, then how many other secrets are in there? OK, so let's get back to seduction. Do you mind? No, I love it.


No, I love a good seduction. Also, this show was so interesting to do because I had just had a baby, so I definitely wasn't feeling my most seductive. I was feeling pretty good. But I had a baby that I was breastfeeding and I wasn't sleeping. And so it was an interesting sort of mind game for me to be like, you got to look sexy.


But also, you know, you had like two hours of sleep and like, your boobs are leaking, you know, like, yeah. At one point we were flying to Austin to shoot a few days with the cast, just a few days shoot in Austin. And I was going a day before because I wanted to get settled with the kids and my husband and I forgot all of this frozen breast milk in the freezer.


Oh, no, Canada. Oh, my God. I was like, oh, God, it's over.


Like, I luckily had all these great female partners on the show. So I called Hannah Fadhel and I was like, emergency. You have to get the breast milk in the freezer in my house and bring it on the plane with you. And she was like, no problem. So that day they landed the cast was taking a private plane because they had the camera and all this stuff. And so I texted her. I was like, where's the milk?


And she said, oh, it's on its way to you right now. I'm just going on a text. And I was like, OK, who's got the milk? I didn't ask her, but I was just thought, OK, that's weird. I don't know who's got it. But so my husband and I are waiting in the lobby of the hotel and in walks Nick Robinson, who plays my student lover, and he's got like a pink lunchbox full of my breast milk.


And he very awkwardly like, sees me and Jamie's standing there and such a sweet guy. He comes over and is like, I think this is for you. And I'm like, oh, my God, OK, they're literally couldn't be anything like less. Well, maybe some people would find that very sexy, like holding your milk. You'd be into that.


I can't reveal my facial expression, this listener, but I was just sort of like, oh, God, that is what we're dealing with here.


So that does sort of give the reality of the situation. But I agree with you, there are a lot of very steamy scenes that can be kind of awkward to shoot. We had a what are they called intimacy coordinator. Oh, yeah. OK, have you ever worked with one? No, I make like spoof movies and sitcoms. Listen, they're a big thing right now, so you may have one on your next job. Did you find it incredibly helpful?


No, we had this woman who work with us for one day and I felt very uncomfortable. I felt like we talked about things that we shouldn't have or like maybe we talked about things too much weird. I was so uncomfortable that I went and said, well, first I talked to Nick and I talked to Ashley, who plays my husband. And I was like, How do you guys feel?


Like you feel comfortable. You know, do you want someone on set every time we have a scene or are we all good with each other and with our director to, like, trust that it's going to be OK?


And the three of us all very passionately agreed that it actually felt way more awkward now than it was before.


So I'm not saying that it's a bad idea.


I think in a lot of situations it's probably the best idea.


But for us, I was so confused by the whole experience and I just found that, like, if I trust my director and I know exactly what's going on and my co-stars are on the same page, then it's fine.


That's all I needed for this show. Yeah, on Mom. I mean, it's a sitcom with a live audience. There's nothing romantic. But on the rare occasions my character had a romantic interest in me because I was proud that I got to the place in my life, just maybe being in my forties, where I think being the lead of the show, I felt like I developed this thing like, hey, do you feel comfortable kissing during rehearsal?


Right. When we show to the producers, it's totally up to you, just simply like talking it out, because oftentimes it would happen if we did have to kiss like in rehearsals, there would be this awkward confusion like, oh, God, wait, are we really? And then it kind of like fucks with the whole rhythm of the play. Yes, completely. But I haven't been a part of that many intimate scenes, so I don't really know.


I don't know if the normal protocol is actually talking.


Well, I think that it depends on who your leader is. Like, because of this show, there were so many females in charge in a good way. I felt like there were such clear communication, like our director, creator and our DP and our EP, All Women, and because I was a producer on it, had so many conversations with Hannah Fadhel about what we were doing. And what we needed in each sex scene and what we were going for that like there was zero confusion about what was going to happen, that we were talking so bluntly about things that it was like comical.


You know, I'd be like, hey, do you need me to masturbate on the cutting board or am I just like, should we close the set for this conversation? And I'd be like, well, no, we're just talking. But I don't think that's always the case. I think it depends on who you're around and you know, how people talk about it.


Have you played characters that you fundamentally didn't care for? Yeah. Haven't you?


I've played characters whose logic I could not wrap my head around and usually that stemmed from the writing, you know, like playing a serviceable character to a male counterpart. Oh, yeah. It's like this decision making. The lines that I'm saying are only for this person.


I'm the reactor. Wait, wait. You're telling me as an actress in Hollywood, you've experienced that? I can't imagine why.


So I think that those are the characters that just aren't fleshed out. And I couldn't figure out a way to flush them out in any way.


That experience becomes pretty disheartening because I do believe that I'm good, but I think all of us have a little bit of like that. Somebody's going to find us out or something like that. Yeah, absolutely. It took me a while to not blame myself. Like, why can't I unlock this, right? Why can't I make this a little more spicier? Interesting, right?


Yeah. And then you look at what you're actually reading or playing and you're like, oh, well, I can't because it's not there. But of course, usually my first instinct is to blame myself as well. I'm like, oh God, I can't figure that out.


I played this character like a sex crazed ghost on American Horror Story a very long time ago in the first season. And she was really annoying. Like, she's annoying and actually insane. It wasn't like I was sitting there as an actor, you know, studying why she was trying to have sex with everybody and kill her. But like, I was just kind of like, this is fun. She's crazy. The show is wild. You know, sometimes it doesn't need more depth than that.


I mean, there was more depth to her, but I was just like, this will be a fun, crazy experience. But a lot of people really hate that character and associate me with her.


And they're like, oh, God, that girl so annoying. I have a really small role in Lost in Translation years ago, and my character was just atrocious.


And my God, I just remembered we're both in Brokeback Mountain. I know. I was reading over your bio. Oh, my God. I had forgotten to. Well, because it was so long ago. It was so long ago. And how was that? For me? It was fucking terrifying. I want to talk to you about it.


Yeah, me too. Yes. I mean, I was so nervous. Like, I can't believe I was able to get any of the dialogue out because I was so intimidated by Ang, even though he is so gentle and sweet and soft spoken and all those things. But I was so intimidated by him. I also had never worked with anyone before who was like, you know, micromanaging every blink. Yeah. Now if you work with David Fincher, then it's sort of like that experience was a walk in the park, comparatively.


Oh, really? Yeah. But I was like 19 when we shot Brokeback Mountain and I just kept thinking I was going to be fired because Ang Lee was so specific about everything.


Oh, but Heath Ledger would tell me, like, don't worry about it. He's like this with all of us. It's not you. And but I didn't believe him.


I was like, he's just being nice.


Your story right now has given me so much comfort. I auditioned for and Hathaway's role and I chose not to take that role.


And at the time I had never been offered anything. So I felt very nervous going to a set, even though my role was quite small, like we did dialect coaching and everything for a very specific region in Texas. But I remember thinking, like, he has no idea how I'm going to play this. Oh, God, yeah. And we're in Calgary and we started off the day with my line and we did it, I think maybe 17 times.


And I'm wearing this atrocious wig and I'm just sweating and I'm wearing this like polyester gown and they're like on day forty of shooting or something. And I was just like, Ang Lee is going to fire me or. Yeah, and he is so sweet and kind. But I was so nervous too. I couldn't understand what he was saying was allowed like banquet hall.


Oh no. But I love that we said about Heath because Jake kind of did the same thing to me. He was like, don't worry, we do a lot of takes. He's really precise because he could feel me. Yeah.


Like, oh, I remember Linda because Linda Cardellini was also in it and she and I had a small scene together. So she and I were bonding about it. And I mean, she had the same experience. We were all just sort of like, oh, God.


Like, are we going to be asked to leave after work today?


Meanwhile, I love her so much, like I said. In touch with him, I love his family, his wife, like, became friends with my mother. I love him and I would love to work with him again. But it was so intimidating as one of my first jobs as an adult because I had been acting since I was a kid. But, you know, it felt to me like my first real job somehow. So it was scary.


It was terrifying.


But I do love it that we both had that same comfort, like how nice of both Heath and Jake to I mean, they probably had to do that with, like anybody, but it was a really generous act.


Yeah, that is true. That is true. And I love that they both chose to do that. And, you know, they both clearly read the room very well. And I did feel comfort in it. I was like, oh, good, we're a team. Like, he gets it. We're going to figure this out.


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Kate, when you talk about like precision and perfectionism with David Fincher, will you elaborate on that besides English? I don't think I've worked with somebody who is so maybe the mechanics or the rhetoric.


Well, I had a very similar experience on House of Cards where it was like the first week of shooting. And I had met David because of my sister starred in Dragon Tattoo, and I didn't know him well. But he felt in a weird way already sort of like family. You know, my sister and him are very, very close and I felt comfortable with him. But I was nervous. And I remember, like, everyone hears the stories of what you do, like 40 takes with David Fincher.


And so I was ready for that. But there was just this one night shoot where I couldn't figure out how to say this one line. I was saying the words, but I don't think my intention was what he wanted. And we shot till like four a.m. because I couldn't get this one line. Oh, God, it was very clear. Everyone knew like it was because I had to figure out how to say and he was so sweet.


I love David.


He's so kind and as intimidated as people are with him, like he was so sweet with me. But my brain also stops working. Like after midnight I go to sleep at like nine. And so by four am I was like, OK, not only I'm starting to forget the lines now. Everything's melting. Yes. Oh, I was like crying in the corner. Like, don't want him to see me cry. Kevin Spacey is in the scene with me and I'm like, oh my God, they all think I'm a joke.


So I went home that night and I called my sister and I was like, he's going to fire me. Like, without a doubt that was a disaster. He hates me.


So I'm just warning you, he'll probably tell you before he tells me, like it's over. And she was like, oh, my God, please. The amount of experiences I've had like that on the movie, this is normal. It's fine. It's just his way. It's not personal. I mean, it is personal, but it's not. And so she made me feel comforted in that. And then clearly she told him, which I didn't know she was going to tell him.


But like the next day he was like, let's go have something to eat. I want to show you some dailies. And I was like I was like, oh, God, I'm so embarrassed. Like, you didn't say it, but I knew why he was doing it. And, you know, he was like, what do you think?


And I was like, oh, God, that's fucking awesome, though. No, it's just so sweet. And then I felt like, OK, well, he clearly thinks that he made the right choice here. Like, I was so sad when his episodes were over, I was like, how am I going to work with anyone else?


You know, you become like addicted to the amount of work he makes you do. Oh, interesting. That's how I felt. I was just like, if it's not hard, then it's not going to be good. Like if me walking through a door forty times, like, that's it. Like the scene is just like me walking up the stairs and if it's not like, you know, thirty takes then you know, it doesn't seem like we've done enough.


Right. But Kate, did you think that some of that is just the technical precision. Yeah. But he is so great at not making you think that because he always comes over to say something to you.


Oh no. So like even if it is the camera, you know, it's like an actor's worst nightmare, kind of like just tell me it was that Grip's full bleep.


Yeah. Yeah, it's true. That's a good point. And probably would be a lot easier if you knew the truth. But it keeps it interesting, you know.


Yeah. There is something about a director that pushes you to a point of rawness, although I think sometimes it can be, you know what I mean? Abusive.


Well, yes, yes, yeah. Yeah. I've had that experience. And you're like, but, you know, well, I guess you don't really know when it's happening, but you can kind of tell when the person like, OK, you're doing this because you think you have the skill of someone who can do that and get away with it nicely.


But usually, you know, if the person has the skill or not, I remember saying I think I only had like the gumption to do this with Scary Movie three and four. I mean, my character, it's so difficult to play a character that has no dimension.


Yeah, I'm sure. So when David Zucker and I adore him and I know he listens to the podcast religiously, but when I wasn't delivering a line in the way that he heard it, I would say, please, please give me a line reading.


Please just give me a line reading. I'm not offended. I just want to know why would I be fucking offended if Cindy Campbell, like I write, I hope that my acting passion is not rooted in Cindy.


Sure. Sure. But he would have a really hard time. I would get frustrated when I asked him to do that. And that's OK because it's not their job. But I felt like if I wasn't hearing the rhythm or the intention at a certain point, just tell me exactly how you want to hear it. How are you hearing it in your head and do you know what I mean?


Yeah, I guess there's that whole thing of like, oh God, did they give you a line reading? But I welcome a line reading some if it's a director that I respect. Absolutely. Give me the line reading. Two, and if it's a character I don't respect, I'm like totally I adore Cindy, it's just that Cindy is like a cloud of a person.


Hmm. That's a good description. I love it.


OK, do you mind if I ask you a series of life questions?


Sure. OK, if you could live anywhere in the world, where would it be? New York.


Weren't you raised there? Yeah, I was raised in Bedford, New York, and I love it there. I don't know if I would live in Bedford necessarily. Well, maybe, but yeah, I just love New York. I mean, I live in L.A. now and I adore L.A. as well. But, you know, there's something about New York, the people, the weather.


I love it all.


I haven't been able to find a home in L.A. like of the physical home, but like a community that feels like, oh, I found it now. This is now the L.A. that I prefer. Yeah, maybe it's because it's transient. Maybe it's because we're all kind of in our industry. Hustler's I don't know, it just doesn't feel permanent. I guess maybe it's because the seasons don't change.


That makes it a very lonely place when you don't find like the community aspect of it, when it feels like you're just there for work. I find that can be really depressing. I get it.


It took me years to figure that out in L.A.. Yeah, OK. Kate, what was your first boss like?


Well, I've been acting since I was 14, so I guess when I was 14, it was my first official job. Frank Whaley, you know, the actor director Frank Whaley.


Yeah, I think it was his first film that he directed and it was about his life. And he was the sweetest thing. And, you know, I was just a kid and didn't know what I was doing, but it was a really lovely experience. All right.


I love that. OK, what or who has influenced your career the most?


Well, I have to say that because I've been doing it for so long, there are different people throughout the span of my acting career so far. But my mom really like if it wasn't for my mom, I would not be here as an actor. She was so supportive of me without being like a crazy stage mom. She just always was like, oh, you think you can be an actor? You can, like, barely speak to the neighbor.


But, you know, sure. If that's what you think you can be, then I believe you could do it. And she drove me into the city every day for auditions and, you know, was my shoulder to cry on. She helped me get my first agent. She found a manager's address through a friend of a friend. And like we mailed, you know, in the mail, in the real mail, my headshot and like a cassette tape of me singing a jingle.


And that's how I got my start in the business. So if it wasn't for my mom, forget it.


That's amazing. OK, what talent or ability would you most like to have?


Well, I wish I had the ability to speak another language because I just think it should be a priority for all of us. What language? I would love to be able to speak Spanish fluently, but when I hear somebody complaining about somebody English whose first language is not English, it is one of my pet peeves. I find it infuriating, truly makes my blood boil.


But I don't speak another language. So I wish I did. I do too. I wish I had more words. Right. That's a good one.


OK, what does a trait you dislike in others? I really dislike impatience and I think I'm thinking that right now because I have kids and you know, anybody gets impatient with their kids. It's like, how do you not?


But I don't know. I feel like right now in our world, all you see is the mask thing you were talking about. Like people are like so impatient with like everybody else's stuff. And I just find it really quite sad. You know, everybody's always in a rush. And like I'm not saying I'm not. Of course, I probably say that because maybe I get impatient too often and I don't like that about myself.


That was my next question. What is a trait you just like in yourself? Nothing. Getting a trait I dislike in myself that I willing to share. That's a hard one. Yeah.


Yeah, I know. I know. Nobody's ever asked me these questions. Do you have an answer for yourself?


I hate it how flaky I am and I hate it even more that I don't tend to the people that I love in my life enough.


I don't respond to their text quickly. I don't call enough. And I justify it by saying it's because when I do, I want to spend like an hour on the phone catching up and really dedicating my time, my energy to that person and connecting. And so I have a very childish resentment towards texting.


What do you mean that? So you resent when a family member or someone you love text messages, you the whole thing?


I don't resent them. I resent the concept. Oh, interesting. Yeah. I don't like it that if I don't put a ton of exclamation points that it'll sound like a mad. There's no nuance. I can't you can convey practical information. Well but anything else is like this person's going to misunderstand this and why are we communicating and. It feels like a simplistic structure. Yes, I have the opposite problem that you have, like I almost never have text messages that haven't been read or emails that haven't been read.


And I'm not on my phone all that often, but I have to read all of the text messages and respond immediately and the email immediately. Oh, God, I'm scared of what you're about to show me on your phone.


I have two hundred and eighty one unread text messages. Oh, I have seventy one on. Listen to voice mails. It's shocking. I'm alive.


I have zero unread text messages. But you know what? Maybe that just says you have more people reaching out to you than I do. No, no, no, no, no.


But I know what I wanted to ask you, though. I was thinking last night, as I think about you every night. Oh, yeah. I love it. The first person that you called, maybe it wasn't the first person, but you called your sister. Oh, yeah. After David and I was thinking because at times I really wish I had a sister and I have this maybe delusional idea that if I had had a sister, I could communicate a little more easily with women or men.


Oh, interesting. Or anybody. Do you have brothers? I have an older brother. Yeah. OK, yeah. And we're really close. But how do you think having a sister has affected your personality or your.


I mean, very deeply. I think because we're so close in age, we're two years apart. And so, you know, we grew up doing everything together. And then you add on the fact that we then ended up in the same industry. So we have the same passions, not just for acting, but also we're both animal lovers, activists. It's like we kind of couldn't be more similar and more different at the same time. We're very, very, very different people.


But we also have like the exact same passions.


And yeah, I mean, I reached out to her. She was the first person I, I don't know if I called or I texted her in the middle of the night on another movie. I was having a really horrible experience with this director. And yeah, she was the first person I thought to call. And I mean, I spent years as an actor without her. She waited longer than I did to become an actor. And so I know the difference between having her in the business and then not.


And I don't really have another actor friend that I would call. I have actor friends. But it's so different. It's like there's no one that knows you better than your sibling. I mean, for me, there's no one that really knows me better than my family. So to have her in this insane industry that we're in and be able to say, like, what should I do? Or did you experience this or do you have any friends who did?


And then usually the answer is yes. In some way it's unlike anything else. It's a real bond.


I feel like if I had had a sister, maybe some of my defensive walls would be lower. My brother is three years older and he's tall and he's big. I was by far like the smallest person in my family and for years we did not get along.


We tormented each other.


But he was just so physically imposing and is still I'm so glad we're really close now. But still to this day, feels like sometimes there's a language between especially women. I feel that I don't quite understand. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I feel easily intimidated. I think.


I mean, I wonder if a sister would have changed that. Who knows? Because it's also really complicated, you know what I mean. Yeah, very complicated. Having siblings and especially siblings of the same gender is just. Yeah, it's you know, it can be complicated.


OK, this is just out of my own curiosity. When you're doing press, what percentage of journalists ask you if you are a football fan?


Probably 60 percent. That's a little lower than I would've thought, actually. Yeah, it's not as many as you think. Yeah. And I don't even want to know the answer. I'm not even going to fucking tell you. Good. You tell me. OK, do you mind telling us how you met Jamie?


No, it's such a fun story. He and I met so many years ago.


We were both screen testing for this movie called Stop Loss, and we both were flown to New York to screen test. I had to screen test with all these guys. I can name them for you.


I had to screen test with Channing Tatum, Hayden Christensen, Justin Timberlake, Jamie Bell, and I had to kiss all of them in the scene. And I remember my mom actually reminded me of this. She was like, first of all, neither of us got the part, just Afgooye, me and Jamie. Neither of us got the part.


But my mom was like, you called me after the screen test and you were like, oh, my God, this is crazy. I feel kind of dirty. Which, by the way, is a lot of people to be good and everybody's sweating.


Oh, it's disgusting. I read with all these guys and my mom reminded me that I called her and was like, yeah, I think it went OK, you know, telling her about everyone. I said, but by far the best one. And he should be getting the part. But I don't know if he will because he's shorter than the other guys. And the guy was supposed to be this big Marine or something. And, you know, Jamie's not really a total.


Guy, but I was like he was the best actor by far and the best kisser, and we didn't see each other again for a few years. And then we screen tested together again for a music video that he was in, which he actually ended up doing with his then girlfriend, Evan Rachel Wood. But we for some reason screamed that they wanted to see us and Jamie read together because Evan was maybe not going to be available to do it.


So, again, we had to do this like, very romantic thing and didn't end up working together. And then I started dating Max Minghella for years. And Max and Jamie are best friends. They're like brothers. And so I would see Jamie all the time through Max. And we were all just kind of friends. And I was always like, God, Jamie is the sweetest guy ever. But I never thought, like, you know, he's Max's best friend and that's it.


I just had such a wallop about it. And then we were finally cast in the same movie together, The Fantastic Four, which was a real disaster.


But we got to know each other and became really good friends. He was single at the time and I kept trying to set him up with other actresses. We used to like flip through magazines and, you know, point at the actresses that, like, we thought would be good for him.


That's such like a hot, flirty move. Oh, well, yeah. And now it's a disaster because now I know all the girls that he finds like super hot. Yeah, but I bet he was like in love with you.


But long story short, a year later we ended up having to do press for this movie and all the press. Everyone hated the movie, but it really bonded us and we fell madly in love. And we were like, oh, my God, you've been there the whole time.


And I was like, oh, that's amazing. I love that. I truly do.


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I don't know, I don't really have one. Well, no, I mean, like let's say it's a day of laundry, you know, plans like if there's something on that just feels kind of comforting and irresistible or not really.


I mean, this is a little embarrassing to say this, but any time unfaithful is on, I will watch it any time or Fatal Attraction. Like I love a good sex crime case.


A killer. Yeah. I wonder what Claire has in store for us. You'll have to wait and see. What qualities do you look for in a friend? Thoughtfulness. You know, I need someone who's got a good sense of humor. I think that's really important. Yeah. Is sort of a stupid answer. Kindness. But, hey, it's true.


I love that. Do you have a favorite book or author? No.


Sometimes I phrase this question in a way that feels a little more specific. Like I read this book when I was 15. That was very transformative for me. It was called Foxfire by Joyce Carol Oates.


Oh, I love Joyce Carol Oates. Yeah, it's like this badass girl gang they killed Dude or Jesus.


Yeah, it's awesome. And for me, I hadn't read at that time too many books besides like Ramona Quimby.


Oh my God. I used to love Ramona Quimby, so I just hadn't read that many books with female protagonist like badass female. And so for me it was like planting seeds of like early raise. Sure. Yeah, yeah.


That makes sense to me. Yeah. I think now that you're saying it, one of the books that I read a few times, I don't remember the author. I feel bad saying that, but this book called The Happy Hooker.


Have you ever read that. No. Great book. Yeah.


I mean I don't know if it holds up now, but I used to really be into it about a I think a housewife who decides to be a hooker on the side.


This is a show, Kate. I know.


Well, I think they've made a few shows like this or they're in the midst of making a few shows like this.


But how happy are they? What if we made the happiest I know Hooker has ever been happier. I'm down. I love it. What's your greatest extravagance?


I guess my greatest extravagance and that I'm really missing during covid times is massages because I genuinely feel like it changes my whole life vibe.


Well, it does physically, especially being a mom. And like because my one year old, I'm still holding her all the time and like, I can't really sleep properly or all these things. And like, covid has made me pretty terrified to do anything. So, yeah, I would say massages.


Yeah, that sounds good. Let's go to a spa. OK, on what occasion do you lie?


I never expect to be fully honest with these questions on a podcast.


Well, but also it takes time to like really think about those things.


Isn't the worst like when you're on the red carpet, it's so chaotic, it's so intimidating. And then some journalist is like, so like, what's your biggest pet peeve? And you're like, oh, god, I don't know.


I totally yes, I think that's very true. But you just gave me my answer because I lie all the time on the red carpet because they usually ask you, like, OK, I'm not saying I've worked with a bunch of assholes because I haven't I've actually mostly worked with really great people who I loved working with. But you can't love everyone you work with, actor or director. You can't end on a red carpet when they're asking you, like, what was it like working with so-and-so or this and that.


You have to be positive. You have to.


This is why we also should learn another language so we can learn more adjectives. Yeah, because we can always say the same things. Oh my gosh. Was so fun, so great. Look like just what a wonderful person.


They're so professional and so nice. And then you sound like you're on The Bachelor. OK, what was your first love like. Oh my first love God. To me this question is also tricky because if I were to answer it, it's like, well, Ryan Jurvanen, third grade, I bought him ice cream every day.


Or is that like Brent from high school, which I really believed I was so in love with him, but he was such an asshole and I never saw it because all I could think about was, yeah, I can't believe Brent likes me.


Well, because there's different versions of love. Right? Like completely like I think I've loved a few people in my life, but like I've never loved anyone in the way that I love my husband. But I've also never loved anyone the way that I love my kids. Right.


Because that heady love of high school is so consuming. But you're in such a understandably self-absorbed place, you can't even evaluate the person accurately.


I was a prude in high school. I was like super shy and super like, don't look at me. I was a late bloomer and I don't even think I kissed anyone till like eighth grade, which in my school was like late. I don't know. How old are you in eighth or ninth grade? I was old for a kid in my town and yeah, I was old, but I was sixteen.


I had braces. It was my first time getting pretty drunk.


And what was the first thing you got drunk? Beer. Mine was ice coolers. You remember ice coolers? Oh, yeah, I would remember Mad Dog. No Mad Dog was Kool-Aid with a high alcohol content, essentially. I mean, it was packaged. It was disgusting.


Oh, my God. That is like if you want a teenager to vomit as quickly as possible, give them.


Who would you invite to your dream dinner party?


I would just love to have dinner with Jane Goodall. Dr. Jane Goodall, I should say. She's one of my heroes because of her work with chimpanzees.


Can you tell me about Jane? I don't really know all that much. I know she lived in a jungle. You have to see the documentary. Her documentary called Jane is extraordinary. And it will break your heart into a million pieces. And I won't do her just that movie does her justice, but she's a trailblazer. And she was just like a young woman who did something that no one else ever did. She left her home and was alone.


I mean, I worked with chimps a few times and it can be quite scary. And I just can't even imagine being alone in the jungle. And the most incredible thing about her is that she is a master observer. I mean, she has many gifts. But that gift to observe is so extraordinary, you know, and to learn so much just by being quiet and literally, like sitting in hiding in a tree. I mean, it's really extraordinary.


So she's who I would want to have dinner with the master observer.


I was actually going to ask you how you felt about the word introvert, a self-described as an introvert.


But I think it feels like to simplify it of a term, at least in my head, I agree with you.


I think that there's more to it than just being like shy and would rather be with two people instead of 20. You know, those are the things that I think of.


But, yeah, I would consider myself more of an introvert for sure.


I was trying to do this video thing for a charity, you know, like, hey, we know everybody.


And that level of exposure I'm just so fundamentally uncomfortable with and I can't figure out if I'm uncomfortable being myself being filmed. There's this feeling of like, oh my God, it reinforces that idea that I'm a phony.


I feel like I'm being exposed. I'm like, oh, God. Like, yeah, I have this exact same anxiety. It's horrible. It's just you're like, oh God, I seem like such a loser or like I'm soooo too happy doing it are like those are hard to do.


I do think they are hard to do and I think that there's so much comfort in escaping in another character but also not looking directly into camera. I hate doing photo shoots. It's like you said, you've been trained to attempt to ignore that big thing that's shooting you for most of your career. Oh, that's so true. Yeah. And then when you suddenly have to look directly into the camera, it's almost like you have to confront a degree of your own vanity or something along those lines, don't you think?


Yeah, no, I do. I do. I do. That was a very good description of that experience, Kate.


I think I made this video 60 times and then I just ended up almost crying. I was just like, OK, I don't this is and it was supposed to be thirty seconds. Oh, no.


Yeah. Kate, I know you have to go. I love your show. Thank you so much. And it's been so awesome to talk to you. Please, let's do this again. Let's be in touch. I would love that. We don't have to broadcast it next time. It was so nice to talk to you. Lots and lots of love. Thank you, Kate.


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So get started today at better h p dotcom slash f a price. Talked to a therapist online and get help. Hey, everyone, April Buyer is back with her wisdom and insight, proving that at least one of us knows what they're talking about. For more on April and our other experts, you can find links on our Web site, Unqualified Dotcom.


Hi, April, how are you? Hi, and I'm doing great. Oh, it's awesome to see you as always. So good to see you.


OK, let's call Joe. Oh, my God. Hello. Hi, Joe. Hello. So, Joe, I'm here with April Buyer. She's a dating expert and a coach and a matchmaker. She's she's amazing. So, Joe, tell us what's going on. Oh, my gosh.


OK, so I'm trying to be brief, but basically last fall and then this past summer, I've been hanging out with this guy, Brian. And so he's the first guy since my last relationship that will be completely comfortable with and feel safe around, just like happy and easy. And it was great. And then fast forward to quarantine. I live with a girl named Sarah and we are all really close. Like I can share one of my best friends and then meet her.


And Ryan would is like do everything together during quarantine because you literally aren't allowed to be with anyone else. And so it was all really fun and great. And then a month into quarantine, she threw down to tell me that her and Ryan was hooking up and they have truly fallen in love and need to be together. So. Oh, quarantine.


You get other guys. Well, I have in my own home while I have you here.


This is amazing. I felt like, you know, we were all quarantined to our home. But your home could be maybe a good spot to be. Apparently not. So that was a very big and important scene. Now, of course, it just kind of went downhill very quickly since then. Now, except for now, they obviously are not together anymore. They are not in love. She's literally on to the next guy. But now this is like a weird place of being like, what do you do?


Like what do you do with these friendships, relationships since they've both apologized profusely, like in person. Obviously it took a while to get there. Like, I really wouldn't listen to any of them until like maybe a month ago they finally felt like. Had the opportunity to sit down with me and apologize, that's just kind of like, what do you do? Like, obviously there's a lot of history there with Sarah, so it's much easier said than done to be like, oh, well, who cares?


I'm the one who holds relationships close to my heart. So I think it is definitely hard for me to just like, OK, forgive me, I don't forgive them and just move on to a relationship where I'm more like, OK, well, when do we deserve a second chance?


I'm not oh, Joe, I have so many thoughts. I've lived a version of I'm so ready.


I've been waiting for this for so long. I was like, oh dang. I could really use this help.


In the beginning, I've lived this scenario. It took years, but I'm really, really close with my friend. That's my journey. That feels really good. My friend who was with my ex I person just realized that I was happier with her in my life and it felt like kind of a play marriage anyway. My relationship, I was, you know, I was young, as in my twenties. I wasn't even sure how in love I was.


All those things for me factored into it. But, Joe, let's get back to you. Are you still living with Sarah?


Yes, we do live together. And it's nice because we went through like a serious offer to say this is terrible. And I was originally like, you should definitely move out. Like, why would you want to stay here? And then she was like, I'm not leaving this whole dramatic thing. It's totally normal for the most part, like living with her.


So you described it as like an easy relationship. And I think that you liked him. But I don't know. I can't quite tell your emotional attachment. Right.


Like, definitely more of the hurt came from her. Like, I could care less about the guy. Honestly, where is Ryan now? We are all in Charlotte, North Carolina.


It's like you guys have been doing Corones. You like a reality show?


Yeah, I was going to say I know he was, but I don't know, not far. He was like, I'm dropping off a bunch of stuff for her the other day. And it was literally one book. And I was like, OK, thank you so much for this. But so far, but like, I don't like run into him or I haven't recently.


OK, so he's he's not in this picture anymore. It's just you and Sarah now.


Yeah. Look, I think he wants to be I think he just tells me a lot about like how he misses our friendship and all that, but kind of like, OK, maybe one day.


So what's your question? Is your question more about Ryan or is it about your relationship with Sarah?


I think it's more about love, Sarah. It's like you look at this after talking to so many people, I feel like it's so easy for other people to be like I would never be friends with her again. Like, you're way too nice like you. You learn how to, like, walk away.


So I so had that same thing. Like I had a lot of my friends and family were like, how could you ever write?


At one point it felt like my sense of forgiveness is my choice should be under my control. Right.


I missed her desperately, like she is my best friend. I'm really kind of proud that for one of the first times in my life, a man didn't sort of decide my level of happiness. I mean, it took me like five years.


But if you and Sarah are really close, I don't know, April. I'm insane. I don't have that many friends.


Oh, no. I think there's a lot of forgiveness in the world.


And we have to kind of think in a higher level. And I think it's it's beautiful, provided it's what's really going on.


Right. Um.


Oh, you know, in another call, we were talking to somebody who had a situation not not in this way, but a different situation where I said, you know, how people respond to something is more important than what they did. Right. If your friends and family are there to protect you, they're going to say, screw her, move on, get a new place or have her move out. Right. Right. But I think there's a little bit more work to be done ahead of time.


I find it's a full betrayal if she knew you were sleeping with him. Right. No, I mean, he hundred it was like literally the first night they had a little made out, like with me that night. So it definitely looked like a full on the trail.


It's more than a betrayal. And the fact that it was going on and you didn't know. And also, like, can I be a little crude right now? It's like, oh, my God, clearly I want to say it.


And I'm not talking about sex, but I just like sloppy seconds, you know, like if I know a friend of mine is dating a guy, I don't want him. Like, I'm so confident that I would want the person who isn't dividing his time. Right. So forget about the sex. It's also about the duplicity and it's the not communicating. So I always like to look at not just the what, but the why. So, OK, these people were doing this.


Can I forgive the act of sex and the fact that they kind of fell for each other, even though we all probably already knew that it was temporary, it wasn't going to last? Well, I'm looking at the Y like, why do they do this? Are these people in alignment with how I live my life? Like I go out of my way to communicate. I go out of my way to be honest. I go out of my way to water down any kind of chemistry when I'm with my friends, boyfriends and husbands like.


So for me, it's like, are these people my people also to the fact that, of course, tried to apologize and talk before the other.


But the full apology didn't really come until after it was over. So I feel like in the back of my mind of what this is like, but I'm also like, oh, is it also just like good timing for you? Like when I suggested he move out while they were still together, it was like, absolutely not. How would you ever do that to me? And I was like, OK, well, bad time for her then. But now it's like things started to simmer down a little bit.


OK, maybe I will temper in plays and then they broke up and then she's actually done with friends on her own time and that's all. And I think it's just something I've noticed maybe too about her in general, maybe not just this scenario.


Yeah, it's a little convenient, isn't it, now that the relationship is right?


I'm like, OK, yeah. And it's one of those things where you really want to trust and trust that you can trust them both. But also you've given so many reasons not to trust you. Like I'm like a head on the again for doing it right.


We're really cool as human beings. I think our capacity to forgive is really amazing, but we should never ever.


Well, if right.


But not forget, I should say it did take me five years.


Yeah. It's only been like love.


What I don't like is there's a tone of selfishness of Sarah, which there always have been a little bit like, you know, your friends, your like they are bad, but they need me more than I need them right now. So also try not to be like too available for that, slowly go back into the friendship and not be like, OK, we're back to normal. Yeah.


I don't think this is about a guy. I think you need to take stock in this friendship. I mean, I think you need to figure out if this is somebody you need in your life. Forget about roommates. I think you need to figure out like who is the person that would do that, not tell you about it, and then not have complete embarrassment and shock and terror that it was happening and came to you like crying and saying, I've got to tell you something, Joe, this is what's right.


And I kind of fell for him. And it's awkward. And I don't know what to do. Like if she didn't come to the next to the next day after they slept together.




I was like, yeah, it's like it just means that it's very self-motivated. Right. You can forgive the act of the of that. But what you now need to do now that that is done and he's gone and he's insignificant and like what a jerk he is now. It's what's left like what is left of this friendship. And maybe you're just learning more about her character. I'm big on like, let's figure out character because character drives action. And so look at her character as opposed to her actions.


And that will help you decide cleanly what you should do with this friendship, because no woman should ever be in that position, especially if you're living under one roof. I mean, it's just. Yeah, and mentioned that I'm significantly younger than both of them. Some authors, just like because it'll get better when you get older. I'm like, well they're thirty one, I'm thirty four. So.


Well I'm unsure if they're old enough to know better. Yeah. I don't know. I'm with April. I think questioning this friendship is very healthy. April, do you think that she should question the living arrangement and everything?


Yeah, because I think of our homes as our sanctuary. Right. So the world is so the world is so scary, especially right now. And there's so many things that we have to do with our work or clients or things that we don't necessarily want to do. But we got to do it because it's how we make our living. But when you come home, it's so important that you have a retreat and that everything in your home and. Ironman is in sync with who you are, and I think you need to look.


Into your own intuition, like what is your intuition telling you right now? Joe, forget about like, should I ask her to move out? What is your intuition telling you about how you feel when you put your head on your pillow at night and she's in the other room? How do you feel? Is this still eating at you?


To an extent, it is also like kind of like I'm saying like it took her five years. So it's kind of like like right now living together is like too much. And maybe one day we'll be back to where we once were. But living together is kind of like pushing it. But also not to mention that we are always have. Actually, when this all went down, we had just three sides. So it's kind of that can really complicate things.


Yeah, it was amazing. I was it was a perfect part.


But I was on a lease, too, with my ex wife.


On a lease. Yeah.


Odali Joe, what I think that maybe April's picking up on more quickly than I did, I think was it seems like they were both very cavalier about how they treated your feelings.


Oh, yeah.


And that is, I think, what April's also speaking to about a bigger picture about who's in your life and the kind of people that you want on your team that make you feel really good. And for the long term, they sound like they're really fun.


I think there's that there's that like with friends like that who said to me, I will say, since we haven't been any of us, I want to get just as much fun.


So, you know. Oh, good God. Good. Yeah. Because I am such a person who holds on to relationships sometimes farther along than I can say, like just be friends with them or if it's a relationship, any kind of relationship, really, it's hard for me to be like walk away from something even though like I do have such good friends in my life aside from this. So I think it also made it hard to hear from so many people, like, you know, we all love you, like you're so great.


Like we would never do this to your wife and have someone around like that. But they weren't the ones around. When I first met Sarah and went through everything with her, I had met her like right after my breakup and I just moved here. So just took a lot of history. I think two people don't know where they like to. But again, like I do think it goes back to what you guys are saying. Is it is it worth all that?


Because I was on the other end of that, I didn't sleep with whoever.


History doesn't excuse behavior, Joe, right? Yeah.


And you're right. Because of your work ethic within relationships, because you don't just drop someone when the wind blows. It makes you someone who has very long and enduring connections and friendships and relationships, which is great. It's a great quality. But something you need to add in, almost like you're baking a cake, is you need to sprinkle in some really good boundaries, much like how we have to make kind of an assessment of what do we want in a partnership.


We also have to do that as women, especially as we get older. We want fewer friends and we want better friends, ride or die kind of friends, that there is no doubt that they would ever put us in a precarious position.


The older you get, the more you're going to need that like those sisters of yours, right?


Like your other friends. They would never do that to you.


It's really about figuring out what do you need in a friend? Let's forget about roommates for a second, right? If you weren't living together, how does the friendship serve you? Forget about the past. Remember who she was when you got out of this relationship and move there. This is just about how does today this friendship serve you and what are your own boundaries? Because I feel like you're almost too good at swallowing pain.


Going through, I'm like a go lucky, like I'll be positive and everything type of person, so they're different, you can be happy, go lucky and have an intolerance for people's B.S. and swallowing pain. You're putting them in the same bucket and they're not right, and the only way you can do this is to develop really healthy boundaries. It doesn't make you closed off. In fact, what it does is it actually attracts better friends and better partners when you know who you are, what you want, how you need to be treated and what your boundaries are.


It kind of tightens the lane a little bit and narrows the pool of people that can spend time with you. But then the people who are in your circle are really great. Yeah. And that's what you have to be willing to do, is tighten the circle a little bit and just get more selective with it. I really don't care about the physical stuff. It's devastating. But what I care the most about is the selfish actions and the deceit that would make me feel very unbalanced.


And the one place I don't want to be unbalanced is in my own home.


Right? Fuck yeah. April. Very good.


Well, I was trained to not swear, but April, I think that's such a strong way to to make a point in terms of this is in Joe's home, like even with Ryan, like dropping off a book, whatever phone thing that was, or I don't like how Joe's feelings, it seems like, and not fully being valued, I guess, by these people that are in our life right now.


Well, they're takers, right? So you're right. It was the good word fo right. It was the faux attempt to drop off many things that ended up being one book because what what did he have? He had the attention of two women simultaneously for a while.


There was just like I was like literally that's like.


Yeah, what a needy, greedy, selfish guy. Sorry no one you ever want to be friends with. You know, a lot of people downgrade these relationships and they go, well, we weren't good as lovers and partners because they lied to me. So I'm going to make them a friend. No way. Like unless you like friends who lie and deceive. Why are you doing that? Like, it's not like friendship is the consolation prize. The romance doesn't work out.


And Joe, you mentioned that Sarah was like on to the next one or whatever, which it should be even more of an indication to you. She can be a bit of like a Tasmanian devil, I guess. Maybe inadvertently, perhaps unintentionally. Yeah, totally. But causing some chaos around her and being very inconsiderate. And it would make me crazy if I heard her like gushing about a new dude all the time.


And also like I had like the whole drama from because when she apologized, basically like Sulit, I'm going to break up with him type of thing. So then she was like almost asking for my advice, but no, no, no, you're not doing this again.


It's so insensitive, but also self-motivated.


Oh, one hundred percent. Yeah. And like, she doesn't have many other friends. She does rely on me a lot for that friendship, for anything. So I feel like once we got it back she will let me tell you everything.


Oh she's really salvors so selfish. I was like, I was like OK. Yeah you're right.


She knows you're so nice and she's counting on you to whitewash this stuff because it serves her purpose. And, you know, if you feel like people are going to judge you because or she because she's going to say, I can't believe you haven't forgiven me and look at our history and our life together and our friendship, you can say to her, I have forgiven because if I don't forgive you, I'm going to just be drinking the poison every day.


So I have forgiven you, but I haven't forgotten. And when people create action that harms me in any way, that's information. It's data that gets stored. Right. And so I am now making my decisions based on the information. It's no longer what you did. It's now what I know which is propelling me and pushing me forward to make the best decisions for my life.


Yeah, definitely. You don't have to be mad. By the way. Everything I'm telling you, an honest telling you has nothing to do with being angry.


Yeah, like when it all happened, I literally, like, left Charlotte and went home to Philly where like my family, like my best friends are. And then I was like, oh like this is what like real friendships are like that. I've been there since like I was in kindergarten. So it definitely took a while to decompress. And then once I came back, I was over it because, like you said, like, don't forget it, but way less like high-Strung about it, every kind of able like it is.


But it is moving forward, I think, just more levelheaded about it. And I think you're right that it'll take time for certain. It's already taken time. But yeah, I don't know.


I think April and I'm definitely leaning with April that that Sarah might not be the best person in your life in general. And so I know I know early I was advocating, like, forgiveness is the way.


But I think about well, I don't think that it's even worth going into the past at all because. You have the information that she's this kind of person and Ryan is this kind of person, and now it's kind of like instead of attempting for remorse from them or regret or whatever, I think that's an impossibility. So it's either the acceptance of like Sarah's in your life and it's just so important that you recognize who she is in your life as opposed to attempting to change her.


I think what you're saying, Ana, and I agree, is you can say I'm sorry for a habit or an app or something. I did write. I can say I'm sorry and you can forgive me. I can't fix character. I can fix patterns and behaviors and habits. But I cannot change someone's raw character and her stuff the way she talks now, even what she's doing, what this new guy is revealing, just that her character and with what I'm talking about, not having these protracted conversations about you did it's not about fixing anything.


It's about coming to her and saying, look, it's important for me that I feel good about my life and my decisions and I need time away from this friendship. And I'm not mad at you. I'm releasing you. And yes, we have some history, and that's super valuable to me. But this is what I need to do. Now, if you don't have a sisterhood now as you're developing sort of your dating life and soon to be a partnership with somebody, if you don't have a sisterhood where you can rely on one another for truth and honesty and integrity, good luck asking for truth, honesty, integrity with a guy like if you don't demand that of the women in your life, you will never have it from the men in your life.


This has to begin with the circle of women that are all supporting you. Right. We have to rally around each other and say, I don't do that to anybody else and I don't let that anything like that happen to me. And it's just that's boundary, right. That's an expectation as much as it is a boundary.


And that's very valid to claim. And she is kind of like the outlier in my life. Like when I look at all my friendships, like they're all easy, like they just add value. My life like that is the one that's like like where is this drama coming from?


Well, I got to tell you, she's getting as much out of you as you are getting her. I think if she's your your problem child, I think you also get value. And it's something you got to look at. You get value. She needs you. And that's where it comes into the parts of it be like by now.


Yeah, because she needs you and you feel needed and therefore you feel important in this relationship. It's not your easiest friendship. And so you got to look at that. You got to look at wait a minute, why do I need to be needed in this way in a relationship? Why am I attaching any of my confidence to that? That's what you got to let go of. And then once you figure that out, it is going to be easy to decide, hey, you know, I need you to find your own place or we got to find a a different renter while we're still under our lease, whatever that is.


Damn. April, is this too deep?


I'm sorry.


No, I could work.


When you assume responsibility and you put yourself into it, you get out of the something happened to me as opposed to oh crap. Like what is my part in this? And once you do that, it's really freeing and elevating as opposed to trying to get over a trauma or something that someone has done to you, because that's not very empowering. So I know it sounds like work, but it's actually when you get into the rhythm of it, it's less work as you go on because you're so practiced in it.


Right. Like, I no longer have to practice that because it's something I've been at for a really, really long time.


It's a muscle, right? Once you build it, you just have to maintain it, right?


Yeah, it's to work out. So I'm sorry though this happened.


I say that with a lot of empathy. I feel you someday I'll tell my story with great detail and flourish.


It's really good. I can't wait.


Hey, Joe, thank you so much.


I hope that we helped already go them, but also feel like I have more things to work on. But you know, it's all part of a process.


Oh my God. I do too. Joe, I have so much stuff. What do you think when things get a little boring. I know.


Thank you so much for sharing your story. Please, please be in touch. Thank you so much.


I will. I will. And thanks again. Bye, guys. Have a great day. Bye bye.


April, you are just I've learned so much today, I feel like we're on the same page.


And in many ways you're much more forgiving and nurturing and accessible. It's just perspective. And I think that's what's so cool about this, is that. Everybody comes to the table with a different perspective, and that's what they're getting, they're getting your point of view and my point of view, and it's I think it's collaborative and and really good.


I think it's such a great balance. And I cannot truly I can't thank you enough. I love doing these columns with you.


I do, too. I had so much fun with you on on every single time. And I and I know what it is. It's you. I just adore you. I'm so happy to be with you. Honestly, truly. I can't wait to finally meet you one day. Me too. April, thank you again for talking with us, for your amazing advice, your amazing counsel. All of our callers and myself are truly grateful. Thank you.


Oh, you're so, so welcome. It's been amazing. Amazing, as always, to be with you, April.


Thanks again for joining us today. I really hope you come back. I will be back. Thank you so much, Ana. All right. Bye bye. Bye.