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The Brown Pandit's Brown calls everybody for technical reasons, my volume is pretty low on this podcast because the content, I'm just going to push it up anyway, apologize and I will not be doing this again. Thank you.


Everybody, this is the front. I am here with Jaziri as our guest and also cohosting and you have a YouTube video, say out loud that TV on that's how I know you can be sure.


Hi, everyone listening. My name is Desiree. As as you said, I run a YouTube channel called Just Thinking Out Loud. I have a bit of video out of it, but it's something that I do to share my thoughts with the world on social, cultural, political topics, but mostly social and cultural. And it definitely started off as me pushing back against identity politics. The first video is titled Sick of Identity Politics, and I've gotten a bit bored with that intellectually over time, but it's still a very relevant topic.


So I still, you know, talk about that, I guess, frequently. And I really talk about everything you could possibly talk about when it comes to politics. I talk about inequality. I'm from Jamaica, so sometimes I will cover some Jamaican topic or reference that a lot when I'm describing things. Using that as my experience, I talk about libertarianism.


Recently, I've been doing a series on The Gulag Archipelago by Alexander Solzhenitsyn kind of tragedy my way through that very, very long book. And that's my main interest at the moment. But that's about where I'm coming from. I'm also an artist. I paint. I know the as a courtesy. Those are minor things.


So tell us about Jamaica. Growing up with. Well, I it was just my life, I grew up in Jamaica until I was 17 years old, I came to the US for college. I came because I wanted to study more than one thing. That's the explicit reason I came was if I stayed in Jamaica, a lot of my friends, like, became a doctor or something like that. And I had volunteered somewhere. I like a clinic, a couple clinics, and it's like, I can't do this.


This is too sad and depressing.


And also I remember my friends told me that I would have gotten bored and dropped out because I'm interested to varied.


That's like one of my oldest friends told me. So I think he probably has some insight into my personality.


Jamaica was a place where people I find people to be very genuine and friendly. Economy wasn't great. And from what my parents have told me and also I've I have a piece on my website actually talking about the decline in the Jamaican versus us, I think the US dollar over time and Jamaica was doing pretty OK economically right after independence. And then I blame it on democratic socialism is why the currency got devalued, because people, you know, voted for free things.


I have a little video on it that kind of goes into some of that information called Democratic Socialism in Jamaica. But I definitely saw the effects of that growing up. And I would say other big things is maybe like feeling a bit more unsafe in Jamaica, things like that. And then, of course, when it comes to my identity, I definitely just identified as Jamaican, had nothing to do with my race. I was my ethnicity. I probably would have identified more as like an artist more than anything else or personality traits.


And then coming to the US and I talk about this a lot, having all these forms. Just today I was on the phone with someone and I, I declined to fill out any of those boxes. And I was like, I hate this thing. This was like, I know, I understand you shouldn't say anything, but I think I was just so fed up. I'm like, I don't mind telling people what I think anymore. Before that stuff never bothered.


I was just like, oh, this is thing that the United States does. But now see, seeing just how like hyperfocus, everyone is on on these traits of ours that we have which are which are there and they're real. But just like the the hyper focus on it, I'm just a bit fed up with that stuff. So that was definitely a big difference. And now I just have to live with the fact that how I, you know, kind of pass the information coming to me, coming into my head about people socially from the world.


The way I my brain does it is a bit different from the other people do it. And just like accepting that about myself is something that I've I've had to do.


I don't know if it's anything else I would say about Jamaica, which is a different culture.


Have you have any questions maybe about it? Yeah.


One of the possible probably. Market analysis of vice presidential presidential candidates is half problem and have to make it right and interesting about. Utilities in the black man, then her Indian mother, so I know Jamaica has a. But someone like that brown complexion. I think that I probably would have I think I maybe have seen a picture of this person, maybe I would have thought of him as a mixed person, like there there's like I guess black people, like Indians or Chinese.


They're like Lebanese people or descendent people or they're white people.


And it's all based on I I wouldn't call them white people either. Like, people sometimes use that term. But I've seen cases where, like there's this woman that I interviewed who I guess is white.


I don't know, I wouldn't have classified her like that in my head. I definitely think class is more important than race in Jamaica. But, you know, people notice that, too. And I ever see her respond to a comment online. Someone was calling her why? And she's like, I'm not white. And I think there's like this is just someone in Jamaica who I don't know what she would be classified as a I.


I'm not sure how to answer your question. I guess I think I don't think I would have called that person white. No. But I think maybe some people would in Jamaica, like I I'm not sure it's so easy to put them into into a category. They definitely call them notice that they're light skinned and like, point that out. But that happens more for women like they call them Browning or that's a term.


I also would say that a lot of the racial issues in Jamaica is for me personally, is stuff that I like learned about rather than actually experience.


I just know like the history of Jamaica, which was racist, like most places, because it was based on slavery. Black people are slaves.


But it wasn't I wouldn't say something that I really encountered or thought was really important growing up. My parents also just never really focus on that stuff either. So it was never really built into my identity. Did that help? I don't know. By what? The identity category, was that mostly an American thing? Definitely, yeah, I mean, definitely, I would say that all the time I heard the word black was maybe in like a Rastafarian song or something where they talk about like black women be beautiful or something like that.


But there is no, like, political energy behind it, which is like all of America is like there's so much like political energy behind these terms. Like this is like an identity more so than like a description. So I definitely I, I definitely think it's an American thing. Yeah.


Prejudice in this country when you came here? No, not at all. Definitely not. But I also don't think I was looking for it. So maybe someone was, like, mean to me and I just, like, ignored it. I find most people to be nice. It's it's honestly not something I dwell on. Like, I I've had an explicit racism experience before, but it was not in the US, it was in South Africa.


Like I've never had any experience that I could. One hundred percent point my finger and say this is racist except feeling like I was being, I guess, treated differently because I was black in terms of what people thought I would think and in terms of black Americans making me feel weird about being do proper, like those are things that I could specifically linked to.


Like I knew it was about my race, but at the same time, I would say that people probably have racist thoughts in their heads. I'm aware of that. But I don't really care honestly, like if they think things in their heads is not directly bothering me. And I would say the majority of people are just nice. And I spent a lot of time like I went to school upstate New York.


So there's a lot of white people up there.


Most of them are liberal and they'll be nice to me. I also worked on fishing boats and I travel a bunch, Virginia, Massachusetts, kind of along the ports, a lot of working class white people, all very nice to me.


So I just just it has not been my experience. No. What happened in South Africa? Well, I was working with a cryptocurrency project, an awesome project called Particle, and a lot of the developers are over there. They had a meetup and there was this guy.


We were in a town that was mostly white people, so it was definitely segregated.


And again, most people were nice to me. But there was this one guy who was drunk who walked up to me and I don't actually remember what he said, which is probably important because if it was so bad, I'd probably probably remember it. But I remember him saying just like saying something to me, saying that it was black and it being derogatory. And then people, like, asked him to leave or something. He was like the only person he was drunk and most people weren't like that.


So so if I can ask, how long have you been in the US then? I've been in the United States for about ten years. Actually, I can I actually have a video. I thought maybe we would have video, but I turned it off.


Yeah. Yeah. I think I received as much to video part but that's fine. Yeah. So you've been here ten years and. Yep. And I'm guessing you lived across the United States, not just like in upstate New York. Right.


I've lived in the city like New York, like the where it's a lot of Caribbean people that live there. Right. Right.


And I've also lived upstate New York. And I've also traveled traveled a bit in the northeast. Just I've also driven cross-country. Usually I have gotten stares before, but that's it.


I mean, because I lived up in New York City for four years and so I lived in Queens area where there's a lot of Caribbean people, too. Yeah. Do you think maybe there would be a difference if you were to live in other parts of the US that because New York is pretty well integrated? Right. So I mean, so it's funny that you say that because I thought New York was extremely segregated.


Well, I mean, you're right in living neighborhoods. Absolutely right. But but I think, like in terms of society, why some level there's much more integration in in in people when they could hang out and maybe Manhattan or whatever. There's a lot more interaction. But obviously, like you're saying, but like certain communities, especially immigrant communities, live in pockets. But but my question, I guess more is throughout your other travels across the country, you haven't dealt with any sort of either racism to you as a black person or racism towards you as a Jamaican.


No, I would say most people like whatever whenever I mention Jamaica, like that's used to perk people up. Maybe that's an asset and then otherwise, no.


Like I said, I've probably encountered people who hold racist thoughts. I've never had anyone like. No, I don't. I'm like, that's that's fine by me. Like, I don't really like it'd be nice if I didn't, but I can't change that.


So so I guess I guess my follow up then is what are your thoughts towards this movement right now? You know, with Black Lives Matter, the current George fluid situation, if you want to talk about it, obviously.


Yeah, sure, I think. I think it's a waste of time.


I think that if you really, really want to help underprivileged groups who you may believe are black people in the United States specifically I read, I would rather people just focus on actual people in need of help rather than using proxy, which is what I always say is what people do.


And it's an inaccurate measure of, you know, experiences people have that I don't think. First of all, stoking up racial tension is helpful. I also think. That the situation with George Floyd and they do this a lot is an individual situation and you can't necessarily extrapolated to. What happens to all black people or what's a pattern in police interactions, particularly the fatal ones, which is what people say is the issue, but I don't think there's actually an issue there, both in terms of race and in terms of overall.


I think most police interactions don't end that way, but that's not put into the larger context when you have these incidents occur.


I actually just watched a video recently and I was thinking of making a video, a video for my channel on it. But I'm very busy right now. And it was it is always the case. It seems it's much more nuanced than what the news tells you right now. It's still sad and there's still something to be talked about.


There's still things you want to change, but. I don't really want to. Do you want me to go into detail about what I think about the specific incident or that's entirely up to you? But I mean, we could personnel over the next few questions, I guess, if you want to do it that way.


If you want to.


Yeah, I mean I mean, what I would my follow up question to that would be like, OK, so if your opinion is this is kind of divisive in terms of a way of racial along racial lines where it should be more focused on like a B class and finding the the gaps where there needs to be help and provide that help. Right. Is that what your argument is?


Right. I wouldn't necessarily I guess you could use class like I think the actual issues should be focused on. So if they're kids who aren't getting proper education, make it about kids who aren't getting proper education. If there's a police brutality issue, make it about the police brutality issue, don't make it about black people and then tie it all historical stuff that has happened. And I understand I don't think that's ever really going to happen. I think that is the way injustice is analyzed in the US is analyzed through race.


And so I don't really see people breaking out of that, but I personally think that they should.


But I don't think that's going to happen. So I guess I guess my follow up to that would be good. So I would imagine a lot of African-Americans in America, their response would be to you is, well, you're you're Jamaican, right? You don't have the lived experience that we've had since day one of being in this country and the historical issue with with being African-American in America. Now, what would your kind of response that I mean, if they're saying their lived reality is different from your lived reality, so maybe you don't have the same position to stand on?


I mean, I'm just I mean, I think that would be true.


And I would love if they would make that distinction. But people don't. I hate that I have to. Even whenever I say something, people like, oh, you're black. So this means you're talking about black people. Like, I have never wanted to do that. I never really wanted to be a part of any conversation is just when they start making statements about what happens to black people in the US.


I'm like, well, that doesn't really account for me.


And I think that there is an issue with thinking that there is a universal black experience. I'm not sure that there have ever been there has ever been one, even in times of slavery, like there were always three people, which you never hear about. And I'm not discounting any of that. And I think that people should be able to voice their opinions. And I think also that there are probably Jimi, I mean, I know that there are Jamaicans who wouldn't agree with me.


I just I don't know why there is such a what I do, what the focus on a collective identity, I think is just not it's not reality. I don't think it is something I wanted to say to answer your initial question that I didn't get to about what I think about the whole thing in and it being complex is that I don't know how to. See, for example, something like micro aggressions, it's it's difficult to know when something happens to someone, a, if it really happened because maybe they maybe did not.


You kind of can't know sometimes. And maybe if it's worth the attention that someone is giving to it. And I think that I, I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing, but I definitely think there's something to be said, not just when it comes to race, but when it comes to political issues. I really think people experience life differently, depending on whether or not they're walking around thinking everything is negative, everything, everyone's out to get them.


And if they're thinking, yes, this might be true, but I'm not going to focus on that. So it's difficult to know. What's really going on, because it's all a social subjective thing, like all of this stuff is subjective and social, you know?


Yeah, so but the one reason I read that is I have watched your videos before and do have to say, I think. You were kind of on the same page in terms of orientation. I feel very alienated from a lot of the discussion in this country because it's not my experience. So when people generalize to me based on what I look like, I don't recognize that. And so I watched your videos and I. I know and you would say this from watching your videos and say, what do you say?


Which I think I have to admit to myself, we might have our views, but the views come to us. Society has changed so much in the last six months, in the last three months. How do you feel? But I'm just like. Yeah, yeah, it is insane. I think that, um, I think that I have a little bit b like I'm just I can't. It's not just that I actively oppose it. It's like my brain is wired that way.


So even if I wanted to become negative and start seeing and I feel that pressure all the time, my mind won't won't do it. It's like annoying to me. Like someone is like someone someone be meeting their social pressure. Our society is trying to tell me something.


And my brain is like, this isn't my reality. Yeah. Like this isn't my reality.


Yeah. Yeah. I think that I can't change these people.


I don't really know. There's a point in fighting against it. I definitely don't want to silence myself. So I will respond if I want to. But I also will respond to the point where I feel like my brain, my mind's getting bogged down in this stuff. There's not much that I can do about it. It's like it's like a wave and I'm just going to watch it crash crash. And I'm going to keep trying to, like, make myself happy and keep living my life and maybe try and influence people to be a bit more positive, maybe try and put some facts out there every now and again, maybe try and get people to be kind to each other, even when they're talking about really difficult things.


And that's about all I can do. I do think it's insane. I was talking to my parents the other day and my dad never talks about politics. And then all of a sudden he's talking politics like everybody is just getting into this stuff. And I'm talking to like a couple of friends who are Jamaican. They're they're going back to Jamaica eventually. But they they lived there in Brooklyn. And it's like, oh, my God, we're talking about politics.


And I'm like, I've been doing this for like three years now. You guys, they're just starting to argue with me about this stuff. And they don't think, well, I think maybe I'm probably going to influence them a bit. But that's everybody nowadays. It's like you. Where is the person anymore? We're not just political people. And I feel like everybody's just becoming this political person. And I would say that I'm sorry a lot of in the form of performance.


Yeah, I definitely agree with that. It's not like they automatically change overnight. They just feel pressure and. I'm not going to express solidarity with views I don't hold. To just inform and not be an. Singled out. I'm going to be silent and that's going to say something. And I don't care, but that's just how I am, you know, I know a lot of people who privately are like, this is crazy, but I'm going to do it because I don't want to be bothered.


Yeah, I think that's a personal decision one has to make, and that definitely has to do with why, like me deciding to start my child, but not just with my child, but with people in my personal life. I definitely made the decision I'm not going to hide who I am. It may mean losing some people, but that's keeping myself is more important, me even disagreeing with friends or whoever. So I think that's a personal decision that people have to make.


Do you think you have a bit of privilege being at the top of that ring?


I'm probably a little or above in Jamaica.


I would say middle class, not above middle class Jamaica. Don't tell people that. Yeah, but middle class in Jamaica is like poor here, which is I saw it going like this. It's also a relative like I'm educated, like I was educated in Jamaica and my mom was and my mom came from real poverty. And so you got better education.


And for me, it's all education and.


I don't think people understand what middle class in Jamaica means, problem with education is it imposes linear, logical thinking and a highly problematic if you just take someone seriously.


Yeah, it's it's also all it's ensconced like that word in its own American bubble. You know, on time. No, no, no, I'm OK. Yeah, because every time I hear someone, people talking about wealth gaps, I like, well, give your money away to the Third World.


I always say that I just give your money away for you. All the rich people in the US to give their rights, all the purpose of the US. You you rely on the labor of people all over the world. You're not like separated from them. Give your money to that, like live by your principles. They and that's one thing. And then with the racial stuff. Oh, America is also racist. OK, well, well how how much more racist is it compared to.


I don't know what other maybe South Africa not to, you know, crap in South Africa, but there are other countries in the world that you have to put America into context in the context with, because the I think the social mobility that's available in the US is kind of parallel to none. All over the world. It's a shame that you can't see that if you're only coming from just the US perspective on a lot of people cannot see that.


Me, who is mostly the audience for your channel. I don't know, I think a lot of males, part of me would say a lot of white males, but I'm not sure. I also get a lot of Caribbean people. Sometimes they'll come on and say stuff.


And I'm always really happy when they're like, we agree with you because, you know, I wasn't I put it, but some of them do. I do also get some black Americans a lot.


Well, I used to get a lot who didn't disagree that they would just come to, like, call me names and bash on my child.


And then some also do or some people a lot of people like my shadow, they say, because I'm like, nice.


So they want, like, a reasonable opposing viewpoint. That happens a lot. A lot, too. Definitely a lot of male. I'm not actually sure of the racial makeup. I'm just kind of guessing. Sometimes I get international people to.


From Germany or something. OK, so the euro and what not. All of them, so I know you have discussions with people periodically. I'm just curious a lot more than you than to allow your responses. What's the latest? Out there in of. I'm. I don't remember everybody I've talked to, so it's kind of hard to say. Oh, the wear it is personal, I feel like most people are kind of weird, especially like with their like smart like I think most people, most part people are weird.


Uh. Maybe the more it was a bit weird.


Yeah, I bet it was great to talk to, but maybe him just in terms of like his mannerisms, in terms of thought, I really wouldn't say anyone was like, where'd I also don't you know, I think I'm a weird person, so I don't really like it's like I don't reclassify you as weird easily because like everybody.


Would you identify as neurotypical or not?


Definitely not.


Definitely not. You also discover that I would artist like really at heart I am. So first of all, my mind works in a contrarian manner. I've had multiple, multiple people telling me not just in politics, that, like I look look for the opposing opinion. My mom told me growing up that I should join the debate team. I've become a liar. She said that a lot of times. So, yeah, that's exactly what I was saying earlier.


I literally do not see people in these racial categories. Like, I just don't see people that way. And it's it's really obvious to me how different I am because I have so much pressure. But I recognize the is not my own. And it's like it's like I don't actually think that, you know, like I will not work the same thoughts as my own. But I think you can get what I'm saying, because if you are around messaging all the time, it does get into your brain.


But I'm like, that's I don't I don't think that it's it's hard because I don't want to like I mean, I know I live in reality, but it's like I'm in a different headspace that a lot of people, particularly when it comes to comes to these topics because people just can't understand that. I don't think they can even understand what I'm saying. They do think it's possible, probably.


So have you faced any, like, pushback or issues in your your real life due to your online persona or your comments that you've put up on YouTube where your videos? Because I mean, I imagine especially in this day and age when people have these desires to be virtue signalling and trying to get people fired or dealt with in a negative manner. Have you dealt with any of that in your career right now, so far?


Um, no, but I can't be sure.


I've I had a friend who.


I think she went to a Black Lives Matter protest. She was white, if it matters, I went to college with her and I remember feeling afraid to tell her that I didn't think Trump was so bad because she was, like, super passionate about it and I eventually did.


And that we need to be talking more after that.


And she was my friend for a long time, for like years.


So there was that. But that that's one I've also had for my friend, who's my good friend. Already was, but still is, who eventually told me that she had voted for Trump. But she wasn't she didn't tell me about my shadow. So I'd say that there been both at closing. I don't like rejection.


At the same time, I've had both happen to be with my family.


They've known about my child from the start because my mom watches what I do online. And that's not that's just not a big deal. It's my family. So they always know me that way. Other people don't. And it wasn't surprising because I think a lot of talk about stuff. Friends in Jamaica, I've had a couple of friends. Most of them don't really care that they will watch it, but they're not involved in emotionally. So they're they're not going to have a super strong reaction.


I have had one friend call me a Republican in like a nasty way. And she's like she lives in Jamaica. So this is just from whatever she got from like some media she was watching. But she's still my friend. Like she said, I wouldn't talk to them, but she was like, hey, how you doing? Happy birthday, that kind of stuff. So I would say not not that bad.


I have, like, felt fair, but I don't feel it that much anymore, like I used to. But I told I I really come to terms with like me being true to myself is more important. And you feel happier when you behave like that, in my opinion.


So I guess my follow up to that is, do you find a difference in in America versus maybe when you go to visit Jamaica in terms of how divisive the countries are? It has Jamaica started becoming like I waited for and against most like the US is right now between like, you know, either you're pro Trump or anti Trump or your pro particular thing or anti or make Jamaica more diverse and accepting.


It's I don't know, I described it. I have been to Jamaica for like two years. I wanted to go in in like early this year. I was trying to go this year, but I'm not traveling because of the, you know, the pandemic or whatever. So I would have to ask people, but I've got to get to know because I just haven't from the little that I've seen, I don't really see people talking about it that much.


So I'm going to guess. No, I think they're probably more concerned about immigration stuff than like race stuff. Most likely about like what what might happen to Jamaicans who are traveling or that kind of stuff.


Right. Yeah. I mean, do you think. The blowback would be different if your identity was different. Hmmm, I don't think it would be. Different in terms of magnitude, but in terms of type. I hear people say that, you know, if you're if you're like a black conservative, I don't I don't consider myself conservative, but that is where people would put me classify me that you get treated the worst and I get what they mean.


But I don't know. I think you can get canceled no matter what race you are like pretty harshly.


So people would call me the C word, maybe. So it's like it's different type. And I guess I guess I would I call it maybe you could think of it as being nastier because it's so hypocritical. But I don't know if it's worse. I just think it would be different. The kind of insults like they would call me racist and call me like a traitor, a traitor or something, you know, but I don't know if it's like just different and.


Yeah. I want the last, last. Race traitor? I don't think so. Well, first of all, I don't belong to anybody. I don't feel like I can think what I think. I don't owe people something because of my race. I don't I don't necessarily want to help you just because you look like me. That's the silliest thing I've ever heard. Like, there are only so many resources that I could possibly acquire, including my kindness.


I wanted to help people, not necessarily monetarily. Like, I don't just give that away to anyone. I definitely have criteria for that. And it's not based on your race.


So I think people could think that. But I'm just glad that they don't have power over me. So I think people can think whatever they want, they can think I deserve to be a slave even because of how I look. But if they can't do anything with those thoughts, like, I really don't care. I think whatever you want.


What these sorts of views are you most people probably just agree with them when you tell them.


Um, I would say for the majority of interactions that I've had with people. All. They're not they're never offended by me, OK, if I've ever thought people are going to be offended like they they usually aren't for most people, but I don't have the necessary means. They agree with me. They just don't agree with, like the cancellation of people, maybe for thoughts that I may hold with people.


Yeah. I'm so glad I finally made this video about what happened, because that pissed me off a lot like that. I stood with them. That really pissed me off. So people buy me initially. They buy me in August. Twenty eighteen, I think it was August 18 and August 18. And then I couldn't really deal with it for a long time because I was really busy. And then earlier this year, I think it might have been December last year or December twenty nineteen.


They're not just buying time. I just thinking a lot of color because they had bad me from receiving donations and they never told me why, but they wanted to ban me from using PayPal entirely because apparently their assistance had just caught up and I have uploaded on my channel.


Detailing the phone call I had with people where they basically cannot tell me what exactly I did, what I violated, and I think I was just on some list somewhere or some wrong think person, and they decided to ban me. And I definitely tried to figure out why and what happened. And it's all detailed in the video. And obviously, I'm not the only person that that has happened to. I don't know if maybe because I am black that that made them reconsider their choice is possible because they're like, oh, this just looks so bad.


Like, I don't know. But there's a possibility of that. I just I don't know because it's all based on people's feelings and like, what's the trend nowadays? It's not real justice or virtue or goodness or whatever. Yeah. I mean, so. How are you I mean, are you still optimistic about the world then? I mean, just everything become really subjective about who you are and all that stuff. And I don't see that that aligns well with your own personal view, so.


Oh, I am I am I am still optimistic about the world because this is kind of just who I am.


I think that I'm not sure where the US will go politically savvy, if you mean in terms of that.


I think in the short term, I'm pretty pessimistic, I think we're going to see more of this socialism, particularly channeled through this sort of cultural pressure continue to happen.


I also think I think maybe the US will fracture somewhat.


I think that might be a good thing. We want society to be like that, get what they want and people like me want to get what we want. So like in my personal life, I'm definitely optimistic. And then in terms of like the US. Short term, pessimistic, it's also difficult, though, because it's an election year.


I guess this this one is special and I will seen some studies on how not study is more like. Long form research like not really statistical studies on how polarized the US has become in terms of like the language that people use against each other, and that's why I say I think it might fracture because people just don't don't have a.


I was just having a conversation with my relative, which is not doesn't have an. And he was just saying America is a racist country. And I was like, I don't agree with that. Like, that is that people just you can't agree on a very, very basic things anymore.


So I can't really comment on that. Right. I think that's what's up with that.


Yeah, yeah, and I like that question. I do because I love it. I do it because it's a way of making way for me to express myself. I haven't I've been painting privately, but I haven't been really sharing any of it because I'm too busy. So I'm trying to, like, learn to delegate and stuff.


That's kind of my goal for the rest of the year to figure out to get help doing things so that I can pursue my interests in a way that's sustainable long term, where multiple interests I do a lot of portraits.


In case anyone is interested, you can go to Desiree Dotcom. I've pretty good reviews and people like what I do and I also do. There are also prints and figurative stuff. I have that a couple of nudes.


I have the most recent series that I posted online.


I also do abstract stuff. It's just. I mean, it's just one kind of part, I definitely like music like everybody, and it's something I've been doing outside of school for as long as I can remember.


I used to stay in the art room after school when I was young, and I did it on my own in high school. And I, I just do it when I can. I feel sad when I don't do it for a long time, which happens and probably won't happen again. It's just something that I do.


Yeah. And you obviously pretty young, so you know you. A long life ahead, how do you so you see yourself in this country in some form, what they're. Yeah, I like the United States. I think it's a great place, I always think they are.


Yeah, I like it a lot, hoping to see how they do and I. I would probably move somewhere where people. More somewhere more conservative where they care more about the founding values, because I would want to preserve that, but, you know, it's hard to know how things will change in the future. Maybe the progressives will get what they want.


Maybe it won't be as bad as we imagine it will be, or maybe it will be really bad.


And I'm just like, nope, nope, can't stay here anymore.


Hard to know when you're going to have to. Oh, yeah, I would. Sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.


I want a family, kids marriage, that kind of stuff. I want.


What are you going to. You know, I hope that we don't have to help. What are you going to tell your kids about the stuff, the crazy stuff that people believe? How are you going to protect? I have to focus. I'm very careful with a lot of the society is so different.


I think that's a great question. I actually that's actually not something I worry about that much because I assume that I'm going to teach them to think for themselves, not just by actually trying to do it, but it's just going to be modeled just as a given. And I think that's how kids learn the most. So they're probably going to find it in congruency between what's happening at home, because I wouldn't be like supporting whatever they're learning in school.


Well, I also would be interested in homeschooling. I don't know. It really depends on where things go, because I don't I don't think I have to necessarily. She, like a lot of people, are like, oh, we don't want to send our kids to college because they're going to be indoctrinated. I went to college with us. I'm not indoctrinated like I had enough sense to, like, see through it. So I don't necessarily think that just because you're like if you send your kids to public school, it will end badly.


Like, I don't necessarily think that's the case.


So I think I would just provide an environment where they're not shamed for thinking differently and so that they do that, even if they might be having a different experience elsewhere. And I think that would matter a lot, because I think your whole your whole life influences you a lot, even when whatever is happening outside. Although I guess we ask you. What do you think about the whole idea of America ever being post-racial? This is going to have to have these conversation views 20, 30 years from now.


I would really hope not. I mean, I've been here since 2010 and I've seen a rise in it. So I assume that it can decline again because it did before to reach a point where I came to the US and people weren't talking about this stuff because I distinctly it's funny.


I really remember that, like, I remember it being a big deal.


And then it started with the Trayvon Martin.


I think that was a that was kind of sparked all of this stuff. And it's just been going since then. And that was in 20, 30 and I think or something like that, so I know it's possible for me to not be the way it is now, but I think that it would have to come from. More like media or cultural. Cultural messaging.


So, for example, I was watching the Fast and Furious with the Rock and Idris Elba, and then there's one line they both have to mention that he's like, oh, I'm black Superman and the rock that he's brown.


And I'm like, that stuff. No, like, you just don't you don't need to do that. And they do that all the times, like, they constantly classify people in this way. It's just not necessary. So I think once you always have that happening, people are just going to. Pass the world through those lines. So I think it's possible, but I don't know for sure, but I don't know. This is ground pundit's rock the rock that is in black America.


Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. He called himself Brown. He definitely said Brown in the Samoan.


Yeah. Black Americans are the writers need the time.


Someone have any black ancestry. The United States you call the black. Yeah. Yeah. But the rock is the superman.


Yeah. I think it's cool. I like it category and just like. No, like, you know, maybe not in politics but you know. Yeah. So I just think that's the weird thing about him. But I've always wondered, I'm just like you did that with a famous black wrestler or something.


He was a wrestler. Yeah. Yeah. And so he's known but somehow no one ever said, like, how do you feel about black America like Tiger Woods, even though he's only a black black American? I don't know that you got a huge problem with that.


But what did he say? What did he say? I don't know. I was basically said that he doesn't think it was just black. I mean, like before you were like 20 years ago, a lot of trouble and Oprah was mad at him.


And you guys remember that the Chappelle racial draft? Oh, I don't know that they passed. They passed on Tiger.


Oh, I don't I don't listen to a lot of American humor because it's all racial political stuff, which is I don't like it, so I don't really watch that kind of stuff. I mean, comedy shows because of that.


I don't think the issue is we take it really seriously right now. Yeah, yeah, it's better to have the comedy then, like, you can't even joke about it, which are one of my sons is quite terrified and I was joking to him about not being able to him. And he just looks at me because I'm a white person.


They walk funny. Like, I don't think it's serious. It's just it's a joke. And I'm just like, yeah, oh yeah. It doesn't even make sense. Like the actual colors I paint, like I make these color people of all colors, like it doesn't even make sense of the issue.


But there are things that don't make sense that are taking a given. For example, you're in a Roman Catholic society, you literally do believe the people are eating the blood and body of the. Yeah, that sounds insane, but that's what they literally say they believe, whether they think it or not, people are chewing on flesh, right? Yeah, OK, everyone take it for granted that they don't think of crazy people outside of that society. They hear about their initial thought.


Is this cannibalism? Yeah, I thought when they heard about it after the Romans thought the Christians are routinely, routinely accused of being cannibals. But of course, in America, we don't say that because that's part of their culture. Oh, that's funny, because I grew up in a Presbyterian church, so we also had that and consider myself a Christian, but I don't believe in the literal think it's symbolic.


Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I do remember hearing that as a kid and, like, thinking, oh, this the cute red thing is supposed to be the body of Christ or whatever the wine is. Yeah.


I mean, I didn't really understand, to be honest, but I remember like thinking about that what it was supposed to represent yet another society.


I we have, like, you know, like symbolic things dealing with religion in American society. We have all these. Other things that don't make any sense, but they all make sense to us.


Yeah, I remember like there was a thing Jason Kidd, the basketball player, very like in his half life and in Russia, that sports people describe him as a basketball player because he was like, yeah, I was like, why are you calling him white?


And the Russians are basically because the skin is white. He's not white and yeah, white. I mean, it's arbitrary.


It is the same thing as talking about with Jamaica at the beginning, a lot of people who would consider themselves black hair, they would probably be considered mix, which is like something in between, like you wouldn't be called black. And it just means like how you actually look. So.


So but how are I guess I mean, if you want to use the term white people treated within Jamaica, are they are they integrated within society there or are they just kind of like left to their own devices or does that work in Jamaica? Are they definitely integrated in society? There are not many of them, like they're a minority. I'm not sure what the what the percentages are. A lot of people are just like a broad range mixed and mix doesn't necessarily mean black and white could mean black.


And Imja, which is like a big thing. I just I saw some article. It was like brown and black marriage. And it was like, this is just the norm from like the whole thing. I would say they're integrated and they're a minority in society. I do remember I had a friend in high school will have technically. And they were they went to. Either they went to play a football match or some a team from a kind of rural area in Jamaica came to play a football match and they were staring at him because he was really light skinned so that that can happen.


But like in Kingston or the major towns, people, you know, you see a mix. But it's definitely a majority back before you go, I do have a story related to that. One of my friends is that is Jamaican and his mom is white South Africans. And I mean, in America, we see the light skinned black man, although if you have not sharp, very light skin. And he was in Jamaica, you walking on the beach and some black guys were just like.


Weitman, and you look fantastic when it's really funny. Yeah, it's different everywhere you go.


It's not a set thing. Yeah, there's definitely race.


I think it's like both a social construct and biological like it's like both at the same time.


Well, it was great to talk to you. We've got enough the time for your time if anyone wants to find us online. Google, thinking out loud, is out there. And there's other stuff that I thought was I didn't know about before doing research for this. Great talking with you. Yeah, thanks.


Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. I would encourage people to check out my channel. Just thinking out loud. I'm also on Twitter and you can find everything else I do from going to either of those places that links everywhere. So awesome. Yeah. Tune in next week for Brown Cast.