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I have to put on lipstick because the two of you were wearing this like dark red lipstick, and I am feeling like I'm not part of the front group.


Hey, everybody, it's me, busy PHILIPPS This is busy, Phillips is doing her best. I'm joined by KC St. And I have an incredible guest host today.


You asked for her. You got her. Chelsea de Vontez.


Oh, OK. So honored to be asked for, but busy, you mean. It seems like Casey asked for me and like there was a debate about my to the audience. Oh, I'll be fine.


We've been trying to have you all be dying to have you on the pod, but also multiple people on Instagram suggested, you know way.


I wasn't saying I wanted you. Oh, my God. I think you wanted her. You wanted to hear she is shit. You know, it's not even 10:00 a.m. and I'm ready to feel bad about myself. A wisp of like, give me anything and I will take whatever.


You got it. I'm there. I'm there. Right there with you. Yeah. Well, Chelsea, I. I can't speak for Casey, but I know that you're here.


And really people did bring up your name a bunch. I'm holding the left side of my boob because I just had a biopsy on my test. Whoa.


Have you ever have you ever had to do that? You're young. You're like, what? Twenty.


I have not. I'm not. Oh, my God. You think you sure put that out there? I have not had a biopsy on my tits. I've had it on my ovary though. My other two. My lower. It's your lower.


You have a cyst. Did you have a cyst? Yeah, I actually had a seven and a half pound Fermoy tumor on my right ovary when I was twenty two.


Oh my God. My sister and sister. I'm like an absorbed twin. What was her name.


Oh my God. I never named the beast. Oh I think I'm going to name it Daddy issues because this is no joke. So I, I mean I looked pregnant so I kept going to try and figure out what was wrong with me. And doctors would be like, you're pregnant. And I was like, I haven't had sex in a very long time. Not to brag. There's no fucking way. Anyways, when they finally figured it out, I went to this like very woo woo doctor in New Mexico who had a huge book of emotional ailments that lead to physical ailments.


We talked about this on the podcast a couple of weeks ago. Yes. Yes. And so he was like, was it your right over your left? And I was like, my right. And he was like, Daddy abandoned you.


And I was like, bitch. Yeah, he did. Oh, my. And if it was my left ovary, it would have been your mother abandoned you.


Oh, interesting. It is interesting. Sometimes that stuff really, really checks out and sometimes it doesn't at all.


Yeah, totally. I like astrology. It's like astrology, you know what I mean. Like sometimes you're like a hundred and fifty percent. That shit's real and sometimes you're like that's just made up. That's OK. Yeah. That doesn't apply to me at all.


I feel like if I had a cyst on an ovary and the doctor was like, oh, it's because your dad abandoned you, but he hadn't, then I just live the rest of my life waiting for my dad to be like, by the way, I'm sick of you. I'm over it.


And your ovaries knew it was coming. Well, they felt my breast.


I don't know what my left breast coordinates to, but I had like I got my first mammogram, which I had put off because.


Twenty twenty. Yeah, yeah. Course you're supposed to. You're supposed to.


I've had like ultrasounds on my boobs at the gyno. I've always done my like yearly checks and my swabs and all that shit and and so I waited until I was 40 like everybody does.


And then I, and then it was covid and then I didn't get a mammogram because I was like, no one's doing anything, everything which I've done, obviously. So I finally did it.


And it was like, I'm not a person. I really am not freaked out at all. Like, I'll find out tomorrow if it's if it's abnormal or something bad in there.


Yeah, but I had cysts in both boobs, which is not unusual because I have cysts on my over. Like I'm just I'm sister cystic acne.


Yeah. I was in my early twenties like it's just cysts happen.


Yeah. For me. Yeah. There's pressure. That's a new one. I know. So anyway I am Mirch. Don't forget about our march anyway.


So uh so the doctor was really nice and she was like, listen, what do we need to do is just like a needle biopsy to like pull out some of the tissue in the system, the whatever. This one just looks weird on my left side. But she's like, but I'm but I feel very confident that it's fine. But I just want to be ultra.


Conservative and safe. Does it hurt? Well, not yet, because I think it's still a little numb, but so they, like, numbed it up and it was like.


I definitely have a very high tolerance for pain.


Also, I did find out yesterday that I probably bruised or cracked two ribs doing my pole dancing two weeks ago, that I've just been, like, powering through with this pain and like not being able to breathe deeply. And my back spasming, thinking like that's just the way that life should be, like I should just be constantly in pain.


And then finally yesterday morning, I woke up and I was like, I guess I was sort of in the kind of pain.


I'm sure both of you experienced this because I just know you both and I know you have we're like everything started to get foggy.


Like, I couldn't think straight. Like, I was like, what's wrong with me?


I feel like I'm underwater and through a referral, got in to see this guy who, like, examined me and was like, oh, you have.


Yeah. Like your ribs are probably cracked. They might be bruised, they might just be bruised, but basically like bruised ribs or the same thing as cracked ribs like oh well that's fine, that's fine.


A bruise is the same as a crack. That's nice. Yeah.


And he's like and it just has to heal and like it's causing the muscles in your back to try to like overcorrect. So they're spasming.


And so he did like what is that stuff called where it's like vibrates into your muscles.


Oh like like ultrasonics don't know, you know, it's like ten lynxes right there. It's like tense. They're exactly like physical therapists do it on your muscles and like pulses your muscles to relax them.


So he did that for a bit and then he like worked on it a little bit, the muscular part in my back.


And then he was like, you also like should just stop doing the things that you're doing because I feel like you're you've exacerbated was the scene for the show.


Well, it was originally. So guys at home, Chelsea is not just a beloved personality.


Standup host.


Podcast, podcast queen. Yeah, Queen.


I was I was I was like trying to think like what is like a podcast mouth piece of work. Yeah. Woman in her it recording very successful podcast, Celebrity Book Club.


Anyway, Chelsea also also. Is a writer on Girls five EVA. So that's exciting for all of us. Yeah, same here, Chelsea. Chelsea knows that the pole dancing was four girls, five Eva, but then I kind of decided to continue doing it because I really enjoyed it. And then also I just like I don't know, I was just like into it and I wanted to keep doing it.


Yeah, and coolest makes you feel powerful until it almost kills you. Well, it means let's you know, what wasn't killing me, but it did crack.


It did crack. So it's like that the intense athletic. Can I sport can I say something. So I when I was in New York, I was like, oh my God, pull dancing workout classes. Like, Yeah, that's for me. I'm a feminist. Let's get thin and learn to spin. And by the end of it, I'll be making money like this is great. I went to that class. I could not I couldn't do one spin.


I could not do one basic stripper spin because you get to that class and they're like, oh yeah, you'll have to lift your entire body weight with your arms. And I was like, I'm sorry, what? It's like I didn't get off the floor. It was really pathetic. Yeah. I just want to give a kudos to you for casually picking up pole dancing. And I do yell about this a lot and I stand up, but like, people don't realize that, like, strippers are like Olympic athletes.


Yeah. I mean, listen, if you a lot of people, I think, try pole dancing because it's like a popular fitness class or whatever. But here's the thing.


If you could not climb the rope in elementary school gym, you're not quitting.


You're not getting up that pole protesting about the pole, the rope in elementary school. To be fair, I also was not a rope climber in elementary school. I always failed the presidential fitness test. Oh, man. And always.


Yeah, but, you know, I've come to the working out later in life and I really am strong from doing all my Lexia workout.


And it just was like the kind of thing where it was written in the show. And I took it as a challenge and I just thought, like, how fucking fun and cool would it be if I did that instead of having a double do it?


Yeah, it is.


And it looks great like and in the show there's stuff that we shot and and then I was like continuing doing it because it's because I like I it was really fun and I really liked it.


And I'm going to I'm going to go back to the poll, guys.


I just need to take a break so that my reps can you need to pull a share and get those ribs removed, you know, the bottom to the bottom or maybe like a padded pole for you just so.


No, I don't think that that's a thing.


You know, I feel in a padded pool we could innovate and like a padded pole that could be like you're a thing that you sell on QVC. You could become very wealthy.


I know the move that it happened on. I felt it. And then I was just like that. Didn't feel right. But I am me. So I just was like, let's keep going.


Yeah, I think this padded pool thing has legs like, are you a lazy ass old bitch who wants to be swinging her tits around a pool, get a padded pool? I would buy it. I can't I can't take it off. You can't you can't grip it if it's padded. You need to be able to grip it there.


I mean, there's got to be a way we need to get a scientific mind on it. You know that I love to invent shit.


And I think like a at least a slightly padded pole.


I'm going to take a break. I, I have to put on lipstick because the two of you are wearing this dark red lipstick, and I am feeling like I'm not part of the front group. Wow.


So, you know, I'm just going to keep doing this busy. Actually taught me this in one of our table reads for girls. So I have a she was like, you know, the trick to looking good on a zoom is just putting on lipstick and nothing else on your face because the zoom will only pick up your lip. And I've been doing it ever since. I don't have anything on except a nearly black red lipstick.


You look totally made up. Well, it's your chip. It's a hot tip. Well, guys, now you've heard it. The way to look put together and hot on a zoom is to just do a bold red lip.


Just all you got to do. Just some doing it right now. This is an old Kylie Jenner lip kit. Oh, nice. It looks good. This is one of the old ones.


I haven't used it in years. I mean, I don't know. I know you're supposed to throw makeup out.


I was going to say I. I can't imagine a Kylie Jenner lip kit ages.


Well, of all the little kids I know, it seems kind of OK right now. I, I never throw makeup out either.


I know that. It's like you're supposed to air on the side of caution, but I just feel like, you know, you'd know if you started to get infected by a lipstick or something that you know.


Well, I don't think it's like it's infecting you. I think it's like like if you got an acne breakout or bacteria on your face, right? Yeah. But yeah, yeah.


I'm like very into cleaning brushes, cleaning sponges, that vibe, but. In terms of throwing makeup out mascara, I rotate like I will, I throw mascara, but unless it smells weird, I kind of just hold on to it.


Yeah, mascara dries out and then it becomes ineffective. So for me, that's the drop dead date is when you aren't getting anything out of your mascara anymore. But anything else, especially things that are dry, I'm not as careful as you're supposed to be, but I do try to buy things in small quantities so that they they run out faster.


Here's the other thing I will say about mascara. For me, brand new mascara also sucks.


I need mascara to be like. Three weeks old in order for me to really get the proper Klumb. Yeah, yeah, that's another. That's another like a potential business like Ajda mascara.


Sure. It's it's like a fine line. OK, guys, I have so many things to talk about and I have so many questions for Chelsea.


If you aren't a follower of Chelsea de Vontez, perhaps you don't know that Chelsea is going to have to move to New York.


Oh, my God. Yeah. Oh, it's such a bummer. Well, Chelsea, first of all. Maybe, but also maybe not a bummer, and the job itself is the biggest not bummer of all time. Why don't you tell our friends who are listening? All 10 of them what?


What you're doing, so I am the head writer for Jon Stewart's new Apple Show, and I'm so excited about the show, I'm I'm I think we're not giving it away yet. But I think it's going to be a really exciting, cool show. And I adore him. He actually gave me my first break in TV at all ever. He was the first person to give me a job. And so to go back now is his head writer. Very exciting.


But how did he find you originally?


Where were you? Where do you come from? What you do? So I was in Chicago at the second city where, you know, for anyone who doesn't know, it is a comedy theater to the likes of Tina Fey and Steve Colbert and John Belushi. And just all these people came from this theater. So and it has since collapsed.


And Enchanter and I thought, oh, my God, was that second city? Were you guys the same age there or know we were or whatever we were in the same generation, I think is like what you call it.


And yeah, I love Santero. I met her in Chicago. She was maybe I was maybe a generation above.


It's it's weird how it goes, but yeah. So I was there, I did everything there.


I was an intern, I took classes, I, I did everything until I was I went on a cruise ship for them, then I turned on the Futura and then I was on the train company like Centura. And then I did three main stage reviews just like a.. Wow. The Internet era. And so I was on my third mainstage review and I'd had a big I had had a big friend falling out with my career trajectory. And my managers were like you.


I had a writing partner and they were like, you have to start over. You've just you none of your samples counts.


Do you had a writing partner and then you guys had a falling out and then all your agents, managers were like, well, you got to start from scratch.


Yeah, they really like you have nothing now. They weren't the nicest. They were like, you have nothing now because I had been making short films and doing all this stuff for you.


I mean, I just had such a huge amount of work, the hustle, but. Yeah, but because I had all my biggest, best samples as a duo, they were like Yifat. So I was so I was trying to figure out what I was going to do with my life. But I also needed a job very fast and we did satire at the second city, political stuff like that. So I started putting in packets for late night shows.


And one of those packets, I mean, I did a shit ton of them and one of them was for Jon Stewart's HBO project, which is the show he did after The Daily Show and put this packet in. And then I actually can I this is kind of a long story, but I will tell it. It's about it. Listen, we love a long podcast, so. OK, all right. Because it also involves our other very good friend, Ashley, Nicole Black.


Yes. We love it. So I get this. My manager calls me and she's like, John wants to meet you. He wants you to come fly out to New Jersey and you're going to go right on his farm for a day. His wife has an animal sanctuary. And you're going to you're going to go down to Jersey, you're going to ride on the farm for a day. And it was very clear that that was basically going to be a writing test so that I was going to spend the day writing and that was going to be a test to see if I got the job or not.


And so I was like, are you oh my God, are you sure? She's like, yes, but you have to cover your flight to New York. So at the time had just no money. Right. And so I was like, you're sure? She's like, yes, I'm sure. So I bought a ticket on Spirit Airlines to New York. Getting out of second city shows were was so hard. They were not. They were not.


They would foster all this talent and then be like, you can't leave. You can't even leave this day. No one can come in for you. You could be like, hey, I'm auditioning for a pilot. And they'd be like, go fuck yourself. You have to have a show to do and we're paying you and shitkickers you will stay.


So anyways, I call Second City. I'm like, I'm very ill, I'm very ill. I can't come in tonight. I'm strep throat and so pull out of the show. I and my manager calls me. It is like, OK, so John didn't know that you didn't live in New York and he doesn't want to bother you and upset your life, so he just wants to zoom with you.


Oh no.


And I was like, I've already, I've already put the lies in motion. I thought the non on my way, I'm on my way. I've bought the none non-refundable ticket. Like, what are you talking about? You said this was for sure. And so. What so I was basically like, well, I'm I'm going to New York no matter what, like I already lied my read of the show, I already have this plane ticket, like, I'm just going to.


So I Zoome with John from New York. From Chicago. Oh, OK.


He offers me my manager was like, try and bring up that. Maybe you're going to be in New York for like fun and you could come by. I was like, I don't know how to do that.


So I assume with John, he offers me the job, I get off the Zoome and get on a plane and go to New York City. So while he had offered me the job, it was more like I could feel like I had gotten the job. But you still need, like, your agent to call you and all this. Yeah, I fly to New York where I meet Ashley, who's my best friend from Second City.


We were in our level one class together, and I went and met my little brother who was living there at the time at a coffee shop. And my phone rang and he thought I was talking to my mom. So we took a picture of Madison. So our mom and it was my agent being like, you got the official offer like you're in.


And it was so exciting. And now I have a picture of the moment. And it was my first job in TV. And like I had really been coming off this like heartbreak of my writing partner. And so I was like, I'm going to go to New York. And then Ashley and I went to celebrate at an All You Can Drink in-sync cover band, warehouse show on my own.


And you know, when you're broke and you spend eighty dollars on your warehouse show, you're like, I'm going to get so fucked up. Like I have to like make my money's worth tonight. So I got so drunk celebrating that I threw away my phone and my wallet for no reason, threw up in Ashley's elevator, took off all of my clothes and got into her bed.


She had made me a bet on the couch. I took all my clothes off to bed.


Ashley had been handed Adderall that night and so she rode the elevator up and down, waiting to find the one I'd puked in and cleaned it. She washed my clothes and in the morning, when I could barely wake up, she turned to me and said, I figured it out.


I know how Hillary Clinton can win the election either way. But also, why didn't she give that information to the Clinton campaign? She dried up. She tried. We all tried together.


We all we all worked.


That's how I met Chelsea is we are working on some little project to try to get Hillary Clinton elected.


Yeah. They wanted to reach out to the youth and be funny. They hired us and then they used none of it.


Yeah. And then I got on, you know, I had to go to the airport and be like, I have no I.D., wallet or phone. Like, can you prove who I am and let me get on this plane. And then I flew back home and did a show that night.


Wow. Wow, Miles. So that's how I got the job.


And then I moved to New York and then to Jersey for a year on a show that never aired. And that was that until.


Yeah, until now.


Wow. And then you move to L.A., a pivot and a vomit story. A pivot and a bomb. It's my favorite. My too. Yeah.


Well, I'm very excited personally that you're going to be coming to New York.


Do you have the same feelings as a lot of last week on the show? We talked a lot about how hard it is to live here.


And and I actually like I have thoughts and feelings since last week, Casey, that I need to share a story about it.


But Chelsea, are you like what are your feelings? Are you nervous? Are you, like, not excited to leave L.A.? I'm not excited.


Busy. I'm going to need your help, your support. You have it.


I'm so fucking excited to have a friend coming here. I can't even tell you. I'm so excited to have you there. I have such a bad relationship with New York. I basically am from all over the Southwest. We moved around a lot and yes, of course. And you're from Arizona. And I'm New Mexico. I'm all over. But my family landed in New Mexico, which is also why I have a special kinship with Busi, because, like South, I'm not going to call you Southwest Trash, but I'll call me Southwest and Baby and Southwest trash.


Yeah, I mean, like like when you notice other Southwest trash, it's there's a little tingle you get.


Did you read my did you read my book. So I have, I've been waiting for it to read your book to coincide with Girls five ever coming out so I can plug the show. OK, great. And also I'm going to you have to come in and talk about 50 minutes of your book. I have read parts of your book, but I'm trying to hold it because I'm going to recap it on Instagram and I have the person.


And recapping your book with is like obsessed with you. Suits me very fine.


Well, I just think I there's so much stuff in the front half of my book, like a.


That is so specific to growing up in both Southwest and Arizona that, like even when I was having the book edited, line edited and like legal edited, the editors would send me these notes that are like a wash.


Like, I don't know what a wash is sitting on the side of a lot.


What are you like? They're like, you have to change that. I'm like, I'm not changing it. It is. It's like a storm drain. It's a it's for the flash floods. Like, yeah, it doesn't like you if you live in the desert. You know what that is. If you don't, I don't know what to tell you, like then you just don't know what it then you can look it up.


It is a part of the country that people do not know about. Every time I write a TV show, it's always set in the Southwest because they've just they're just ignoring us. When I when I went to college in New York, this is how this is how dumb I was. I had never gone to New York City. And I was like, I want to be an entertainment.


I guess that's where Broadway is. Like, I guess I'll go there, like had no concept of other cities.




Like and I think you were going to be a Broadway actor. I know. I think like coming from I also didn't have TV growing up and so I had like you can be Julia Roberts and Mystic Pizza I guess is a career. And I was like, I guess I'll do that. Like, I'll try because Julia Roberts, it was what the ugly what the weird girl. So but yeah, I didn't really have I think I was like, I guess I'll have to try and be on Broadway like I'm not really sure how this works.


I was so dumb that I asked a friend who lived in a city what kinds of coats you wear in the city. Wow. And they were like a coat.


And I was like, yeah, like what kind of coat? You wind like a city. And they were like, what are you talking about? But they should have told me because I showed up in overalls and a T-shirt I got for free at a marathon. So I New York City kicked my ass harder than it could kick anyone's ass. And when I got there, people would be like, if I because I was coming from New Mexico, they're like, if I call your cell phone, will I get international charges?


I was like, it's New Mexico. Or they would be like they would be like, why aren't you more tan?


And I be like, OK, well, I don't know if you know this, but there's a ski resort ten minutes from like.


All right, like I've seen snow before, I've seen snow every year and they're like you have in New Mexico.


It's like, oh God, oh God, you guys.


But to be fair, the reverse is true for me. Like when Mark and I started dating and we visited his family for the first time, like over a holiday.


And I was like, wait, so we're landing in Virginia, but we're going to. Maryland, but we're crossing through D.C., but then we're going to Pennsylvania for dinner, what are you fucking talking about? Like, why is that a thing? Like, I don't understand. The United States is complicated. I mean, when I was a little kid, I saw a commercial for New England on TV like a tourism commercial for New England. And I was like, Mom, I want to go there.


And my mom was like, You are there now?


Well, yeah. Well, here's what I want to say, Chelsea.


I think that you coming back to be the head writer on Jon Stewart's new television show, probably in a little bit of time when the weather is not frigid and things are going to start to like open back up a little bit. And hopefully people are getting vaccinated. And like, it's I actually think that you might have a new experience with New York. That is what I'm predicting for you.


Why? Why do you think? Because I think because the city is the city is definitely different.


You know, there's like they think at least like half like 500000 people have, like, just split, like left the city.


So it is just a lot less congested and sort of oppressive in that way.


And I think that the weather is going to get nicer and you're coming back like successful. You're not like coming here as a, you know, like from New Mexico with your, like, free t shirt.


You're like coming into the situation with, like a boss ass job in an industry that, like, you know, you only could have dreamed of succeeding and before and people, I will say just from doing girls. So I have like all the crews, everyone is so fucking excited to be back to work that, like, everyone makes it like it's it's so enjoyable.


Oh, I love that. To, like, be there, you know. Yeah.


And because you'll be there as opposed to girls by which Chelsea did from her own home from my couch and my zoom in zoom.


You know, it's interesting. There's this there's this comedian, Yasir Lester. Do you guys know him?


Oh, my God. I was like first did you see my face? I was like, what if I literally was like, what is Casey doing? You were like, had she not been dating him? That I have been in person. What is she doing? Yes, there is Chelsea's man.


But he has the most interesting theory on this, which he says that it's hard to love your struggle city do.


Yes, you must know this about him. I'm doing the worst thing where you tell somebody something about their own boyfriend that they live with.


But we have, yeah. Interesting conversation once where he said it's really hard to live.


It's really hard to love the city that you struggled in, you know, and I struggled in L.A. I mean, you're a unique case, I guess. I mean, L.A. is maybe not as hard of a struggle city as New York, I guess, because, you know, it's like still sunshiny and it gives the illusion.


Have you sobbed in your car? I'm going to let you in and you're late to an audition that you're definitely not going to get because they've already offered it to Tara Reid.


If the answer is no, then you don't know. Yeah, kind of struggle I went through in those early days. For sure. For sure.


But yeah. You know, and that happens in New York. But then like a semi goes by and splashes like, you know, an entire sinkhole worth of mud water on you, you know, like that like I assume it just has that added layer.


But he. Well, yeah, just in theory I think.


Yeah, it's super interesting. And he loves New York and isn't such a big fan of L.A. and I hate New York and I love L.A. And you know, L.A. is his struggle city. New York is mine. Is he coming with you?


Yes, to an extent. I mean, like, the man always has ten jobs, you know what I mean? Here's what I'm going to say. I I went to New York for school, it's it was I mean, it just kicked me in the ovaries and came out my mouth every day, like New York had a foot that went up my ass and out my mouth every day. Like, I, I just ate shit every day there.


Have I described it well enough how badly I got it. I got it. I got the I got you've got the OK. Right.


So I leave New York, go to Chicago because I realized my love was comedy. I just want to do comedy and Chicago. My rent was three hundred dollars a month in a windowless room in New York. It was two thousand a month for a windowless room. So I'm in Chicago doing all this stuff. I get a job for Jon Stewart, which is the story I just told. And everyone's like, You're going to love New York this time.


You're going back as a TV writer. So then I already went back to New York, hated it again.


Yasser and I were long distance when we first met, and we would keep being like, oh, Yasser is going to move here permanently and we would move all of our stuff into a new place. And then he would get a call to be on set a week later and have to leave again. So so ideally he's coming with me.


But also we both know he's going to get a job and have to leave. So we'll see.


I you know, which is tough. I don't want to go man distance again, but it is what it is.


Well, he says he's going to retire and live off of you.


So and that is the funniest part is that I know he means it. Like, if I really do get to a place I know he will stop. He will only do things he wants to do. He won't take jobs for money anymore, which is which would be my feminist masterpiece, would be to have taken a very successful man. And he becomes a househusband.


Like what an art he'll be like. When my kids were very quick story, when my kids were in preschool, my younger son needed like a very complicated glasses prescription. And his pediatrician recommended the number one pediatric eye doctor on the East Coast.


And like my son just decided, he hated this guy. He was really little. He was just a toddler.


And like, you need the kid to do what you need them to do when you're trying to examine their eyes. And so I went to like a PTA meeting at the preschool where I had been a mom for years and everybody was, you know, just catching up. And one of the moms was like, oh, how's it going? And I was like, oh, I had a bummer of a day because I had to take my son to the number one children's eye doctor on the East Coast.


And he just hated his guts and wasn't going to do what he needed to do. And she was like, oh, shoot, what are you going to do?


And I was like, I guess I need to find the number to our doctor on the East Coast for children. And I just need to figure out who that is in this mom was like, oh, I guess that's me. I was like, what? I've known you for like three years.


I had no idea that you were even any type of doctor.


She was an eye doctor. She was like, but like the best, the best. And I was like, wow, wow, wow, how are you?


But that's also not the best number to she was like, I am number two, because I guess this guy was legend and she was like, one day she'll be number one when, you know.


But that's a woman for you, you know, just like going into Manhattan every day. I doctoring it up, making a name for herself, coming to the preschool in Connecticut and doing it all and never being like, oh, by the way, I'm a great doctor, FBI, everyone, like, I had no idea that's. Wow. So funny. That's it. That's what you a woman for you to do.


So that jazzers like at a at some type of meeting and people are like, I don't know, I'm just looking for like a legendary comedic actor writer and the actors like I know, I know her well.


The funny thing is, is that now I'm going to move to New York, put on a lab coat, tell people I'm a doctor preschool's and hope that improves my New York experience without going back to there. I haven't I have a gut feeling.


So last week on our podcast, Chelsea Raymond, my assistant and I were just having a lot of emotional feelings about how much we were missing L.A. and the day that the podcast came out on Wednesday, I had gone to this herbalist guy in Soho to try to fix me. It was it's like I'm taking forty seven pills a day.


He like told me that my issues are systemic, which oh, that's the best title for my second book. Now all our issues are systemic. Yeah.


So and then my phone started to die as I was walking home I tried to like buy a charger. I had like a day where New York was kicking my ass, you know, after spending an entire like three hour podcast talking about how New York like doesn't feel like home. And I'm like Missier. L.A. and should we just, like, go back and what the fuck are we doing and all this stuff? Yeah, I had a really strong feeling like I needed to leave L.A. and I needed to be here.


And so and the kids are doing so well here. So it's like been a real struggle, like Mark and I have been both of us, like, crying for weeks about like. This what are we like, should we we don't know any we have nothing here, like we're not this isn't our we both, like, put in all the fucking time and energy and effort and like L.A. was it for us. Yeah.


So anyway, I was walking through like toward sort of near where Ray's apartment is on my way to walk home. I was like, I'm just going to walk home, I'm going to listen to music until my battery dies. This fucking Mowafi didn't work, asshole. And and I and I was thinking about how sad Ray was when we were talking to him KCA.


And so I texted him and I was like, hey, there's no one. There's two tables available at Bar Castellino, which is like this little cafe on the street. And it was like the first day.


It was nice weather and it was like, my phone's about to die, but do you want to come have an apple spritz with me?


And he was like, yes.


So I went across the street and I was like, hi, I. And just as I like, I notice they pulled the tables together and four people sat down and I was like, you got to be fucking kidding me. Yeah. Like, you just have to be fucking. Yeah.


But anyway, so I was like, there's two of us and she's like, it might be like twenty minutes. I was like, whatever dude. Fine. I like at this point now I'm in for the fucking apparels.


Yeah. Yeah.


So Ray comes and meets me. Oh that was also the day that I found out that I had to get the biopsy. So I was feeling like a little fucking weird anyway. And then the acupuncture is like you have systemic issues.


You take all these pills. Anyway, I was just like, what the fuck is happening? Mark texted me like, are you are you OK? I'm like, I'm fine. Ray and I are having an apple spritz up bar pistola, you know? And he's like, well, my meeting's over his Zoome meeting. Should I come down and meet you guys?


And I was like, Yeah, but my phone's about to die. So like, yes, but if you need anything, text, right? So Mark shows up. We have another Aperol spritz and we're just like the entire conversation is like, should we just leave?


Like should we fucking pack it in. Like this is I'm like, what?


My show.


I really feel like Girls Vivos probably coming back next fall. Yeah I know. So like I'm like I don't even know what that means. Maybe I just then I have to.


I don't even fucking know dude. And but that was the whole conversation we had to raise, like, OK, guys, like, have a good night, you guys should get dinner.


You should, like, let go of your Karradah across the street, the pasta place, Italian restaurant. That's, like, amazing. And like one of those places where, like, everybody goes, but it's like cool, casual and like not a big deal more.


Can I, by the way, have only done the like sitting outside thing in New York. During this time, because of covid, this was would be the second time. Wow.


Because I just especially when I was working, I wasn't going to risk anything. And and like, honestly, once it got cold, I didn't feel comfortable about those tents.


That's you're just fucking inside guys doing it's just indoor dining anyway. But the is totally just sheltered heat lamps, but totally open.


So we walk across the street, walk up to like the maitre d guy on the sidewalk.


And we saw like two empty tables there.


Right. And he's like, hey, there's just two of us for dinner. And the guy's like, did you have a reservation tonight? And I was like, no, we're just like walking up. And he's like, well, you know what? We are all full up. We were just fully committed this evening. But, you know, we do have takeout available and delivery and we're like, yeah, no, no, we've gotten OK, fine.


And like, it was just that thing where we're like, we don't know anyone here, you know what I mean? It's like I'll walk into petty cash at seven p.m. on like a Friday night in Los Angeles and they're like slammed and they're like, guys, two and a half minutes. We'll see, you know what I mean? Like, I have all the places like on lock in L.A. and I just was like, this is what it is like.


This is the fucking sign. We turn around to leave. And Mark's like, oh, look, it's Andy Cohen. Oh.


And so I kind of like half heartedly waved toward him, but he was like down and kind of far away and like sort of like he sort of saw me. And then I was like, I'm wearing a mask. I'm like, Werneck, how the fuck is Andy? And then I was like, fuck this. I'm not going to let him think that I'm like a fan.


So I normally wouldn't do this.


Like, going up to people's tables is like not my vibe ever. Yeah. But because I felt like I couldn't let that happen. Yeah.


Like, you know, so I just like bolted down into like the seating section and I'm like, Andy, sorry, it's busy. And I pulled my mask down and then reveals he's sitting with of course SJP.


Sarah Jessica and Amy Sedaris of course. My gosh. And so anyways, so Mark's like right behind me and I'm just like. I'm so sorry, I'm sorry, I like Bustan, I just like waved and then I felt awkward and then I was just like, I didn't want you to think, you know, I'm the most awkward person of all time.


And Andy's like, no, I'm so glad you came. And said, Hidary. Oh, I got like, whatever. And Sarah Jessica, who I did that.


I don't know how she does that movie with her. I think like eight years ago. Yeah, I was like, oh, my God, I'm so sorry I didn't recognize you. I was like Sarah Jessica. Like, we haven't seen each other in literally like eight years.


It's like I just just high, you know, whatever. Yeah. And and she's like, do you know Amy? I was like, well we met on Kimmy Schmidt and he's like, Yeah. And you did the table read thing for us. I'm like, yeah. What was that for again. Like some was it election recount chair. What the fuck did we do or what were we raising money for.


It was the runoff election guys. There you go. OK, yes.


And so anyways, nice to see you guys. And then Andy is like, wait, wait, what are you doing? Do you guys, like, move here? I'm confused by your Instagram. Like, I it feels like you, like, moved here.


And so then I told I told the table like the Cliff's Notes version of the story, which is like we left L.A. for three weeks week to our friend Tina Fey called and asked me to be on this TV show, which is essentially my dream job. Even though I quit acting, we ended up renting a house. We ended up getting our kids into school. And then somebody offered us cash for our house in L.A. when we were just going to rent it.


But they just offered to buy it. We sold our house. The show was like the best job I've ever had. And now I'm like and our kids are like thriving here and like doing so well. And so now I'm like, I guess we kind of live in New York and the table erupted and we're so excited about us moving here.


And Sarah Jessica is like, I feel like all I've been hearing about is everybody leaving New York.


But you guys moved here. I just want to say, like, I love it so much, if you need anything between the three of us, like we know everything here. And it was like literally like as like the mayors of the West Village.


Like I like lake, like the three I don't know, like the royal family of downtown Manhattan.


Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, like welcoming us and like and like blessing us and and just saying like you have to stay like they just kept going on a sign.


It was, it felt like really it felt really clear because we, you know, just on the turn and then of course we're like, OK, this is I just started giggling. I was like, this is so funny. Thank you guys like their food. Shut up. I'm like, you guys enjoy your dinner.


And he's like, are you guys you think you're eating here? Right? And I was like, I don't know what we're doing.


I just OK, but, you know, walk and the maitre d when I tell you, oh, I feel like he leapt in front of us and was like, actually we had a cancellation.


Would you like to sit?


Oh, I will sit. I first off andI sjp being investors knew about it.


Amy Sedaris was the third I didn't see coming in.


That trio like Andy and Amy are really good friends. When I worked for Andy, one of my favorite things to do was to just try to find because, you know, when you're like a celebrity, people are always giving you gifts.


And like, I mean, this is this is gross to say, but every famous person I've ever worked for, like, it's a lot of gifts and people are usually really generous and they pass them along because you just can't keep them all. And, you know, it takes a lot.


I guess what I'm saying is it takes a lot to impress a famous person with a gift. And one time we had an audience member who wore a vintage Snoopy sweater to watch what happens live. And Andy could not stop going on and on because he loves you.


So obsessed with Snoopy, Snoopy, he he, like, deemed me when I was wearing my dad's vintage Snoopy T-shirt ones. What does that shirt have to have it?


He was obsessed with this sweater. And it was so funny because I kind of like half expected the guy to take off the sweater and give it to him, but he didn't have.




And so, like, I went on this nationwide search, like for a vintage Snoopy sweater for Andy for Christmas, because I was like, this is what he'll really want, like, more than anything.




So I found the exact sweater for Andy, this vintage Snoopy sweater, and it was like luckily in his size and I brought it and got it like fixed up, you know, like made sure the seams were all good and that it was like properly cleaned and everything and gave it to him. And like one of my favorite things is that he wore it to Amy Sedaris is Christmas Party.


And so there's like really cute picture of him and Amy Sedaris in front of a Christmas tree. And I think he, like, tagged me in it because he was like, I'm wearing this Snoopy sweater. But yeah, they're like really close friends.


And what's the highlight of working at Watch?


What happens live was when Amy would come around just to be around her because she's. Just as funny behind the scenes as she like, maybe even more funny behind the scenes as she is on camera.


I mean, I'm like I've been such a huge fan of Amy since I was in high school and like, I couldn't like she also was just being very effusive toward me about like my acting and how funny I was on the table read thing.


Yeah. I was just like I was like, Amy, you have like I'm like, I can't handle this like this too.


Yeah. This is, this is now it's too far. Shall we. Too far. She's really kind to kind. I love that you test but we felt like our movie like our life was a fucking movie. Yeah. You had written that in a movie. People would be like it's too far. Yeah. Yeah.


But I mean it really did feel after that, like OK, like we like we got, we were like got the we got the blessing. Yeah. From the I you know I feel like that story is.


Yeah. It's like you needed a sign, you needed three people who are the mayors of downtown New York to emphatically tell you that you've made the right call.


Your story to me is another reason why I'm going to have a horrible time there, this JP, and she'll be like, I don't know who you are and I don't care what you're doing. That story for me is like, yeah, I'm going to try and eat somewhere and people will be like, no bitch. And then I'll see a bunch of celebrities and they won't know me. And then I'll go home and write political news bits to try and make a tiny difference in the world.


With my dog, you'll have some DiGiorgio.


Even if I want to say this, even if this story hadn't ended with the Mayada giving us the table, yeah, I still would have left, please.


Yes, I'm sure. Yes. You know what I it kind of reminds me of I was when I was in Chicago, the I was in Chicago then went back to New York and I couldn't decide, like I was like, I really want to go back to Chicago. But you definitely have this feeling of like, I can't go from New York to Chicago. Like, it just feels like going backwards. And also when you're young like that, there's all this pressure of like, you know, you carve out your little hole in New York and you can't give it up.


Yeah, but I really wanted to go to Chicago. And just as a general nicety, this guy I had babysat for, his family who worked at Second City, sent me a Facebook message saying Chicago misses you. Come back. And now when I look back on it, I realize he was just he was just being nice and polite to whatever I sent him.


But at the time, I was like, he wants me to go back because he knows he knows I should work at city. I like full on. It was like, I'm moving, I'm moving. I'm going to Chicago. You know, this guy says the city misses me.


Yeah. I mean, I think that you have to be careful with science.


Yeah. Oh yeah. Well, you can turn it into a science. Yeah, exactly. Anything can be a sign.


On that note, I did talk to an incredible psychic this past weekend, Marcella Kroll, if you don't follow her on Instagram, highly recommend.


She's just incredibly insightful.


But she did say that my choice to leave L.A. was correct and that I am protected in New York and I was not safe in L.A..


Oh, so pretty intense. So that's intense.


And like so between SJP and Andy Cohen and Amy Sedaris and then the psychic this past weekend, I still don't feel totally grounded.


But at least for this moment, I am OK. I am going to ask Casey if you can figure out how to send those nachos again.


Oh, yeah. Those petty cash. Oh, yeah. So you're the one I got you I got you addicted to them, right? Yes, you were.


The reason I'm obsessed with petty cash and and search for it all the time. OK, I'm going to lie.


I feel like I might be the reason why, like most people are. And I do feel like they should rename those fucking nachos. Yo, after you.


Yeah. Yeah. Too busy nachos. Here's a couple ways that we can go. I think that we have a good relationship with petty cash and they did it out of the goodness of their heart and they only made me pay for shipping because they wanted to make you happy. Shipping nachos. It's not something that is incredibly easy. So I'm so grateful to them for doing that. But also, maybe they could just instruct someone in New York in like maybe it could be like an exchange program where they tell me, I gotta tell you something, I think we should open up a franchise.


Yeah, yeah. Chelsea Yeah. Yeah, me. OK, I'm into it. I'm a guy. You're going to need a hobby. Yeah. OK, can I say something about science. So OK. So you guys know I do. Celebrity Book Club. I've been reading these memoirs forever in Rachel Dratch. His memoir. Yeah. She wrote about how she was learning about manifesting in signs or whatever, and to ask for a very specific sign.


Yeah, if if you needed so you you call it to you.


So I read about this in her book, and it has that is a thing that has helped me and to relationships where I literally one time have been like, OK, if I'm supposed to break up with him, I want to see a two golden petals holding a golden orb, which is like, you know, where are you going? But where are you going to see that? And then I said to myself, and if we're supposed to stay together, I want to see a red ribbon.


All right. That's pretty easy, right? Like, I'm clearly trying to be like we could just stay together. Right. And and I and I said, I want to see it in the next four months and the next four months, you know, show me a red ribbon or gold. No, that's a long time. I went home. He was rubbing my feet on the couch and I and we had a tiny little Christmas tree on top of a microwave in New York City.


So it was like above, but it was a mini tree. An ornament had broken off. Now, gold orb ornament had broken off and so had my petal ornament on. Bottom had had broken and they had smooshed together. And from the angle I was that like it was two petals holding a golden orb. That's insane. And I said, I think we need to talk.


We talk.


And I so I think if you really are intentional and purposeful with your signs and put a lot of meditation into it, I think they really work. I think if you're just walking around and just letting signs hit you in the face, then maybe we're back to astrology. And, you know, you're right, ovary. Is your dad abandoning you type science?


Yeah, I don't know. I think that I think that there is I think that you can also not say specifically like an orb into paddles, although that is kind of amazing wild. I do think I do believe in being like really specific and. Yeah. And things that you say and like I always write things down to Casey knows this.


That's like my literary journal. Love that manifesting. Yeah.


But I just feel like I do feel like we were in that case last week, like we were definitely asking for a sign. Oh yeah. I feel like that whole thing, that whole exchange, the whole thing was a sign.


Oh that was fully a sign I was more talking about. If you're like a bird flu. Bye. I guess we should stay. Well, Chelsea that year.


I mean also my I think my kids could have told you a month earlier that you were going to break up with that guy Casey.


You know, it's so funny because it all came on my podcast. I, I introduced everyone with a story how we first met. And I was thinking, like, is Casey going to go into that story? Like, I don't know. And we didn't go into it there. So it's fair to go into it here. But I went to her. I want to say lovely, lovely human, so kind. But I went to Casey's Thanksgiving and I brought my I brought my boyfriend at the time and I brought my brother.


Important to this story is that both my brothers are my half brothers and my younger brother is really tall. He's like six foot three or something. And so always when I'm with my brothers, people will assume we are a couple before they assume we're related because we're half siblings. But that said, I did have my boyfriend there with me who was my actual boyfriend at Casey Sons. Based on the way we were acting, I thought my little brother was my boyfriend and my boyfriend was my brother.


Oh, my God.


And now can we call that a date? To be fair, what they said was they were like that.


Chelsea is amazing. She's so great. It was so nice to meet her. Both of the guys were nice, too, but we could not tell who was the brother and who was the boyfriend. We couldn't get it straight all day.


So based on the left, the equal level of a lot of heat that is.


But, you know, sibling relationship will go on. But the romantic relationship will not.


I will say I will say this to my mom and say, who said it? But but of us, a celebrity who I was working with, you know, I went through this breakup with that boyfriend pretty shortly after, and they were like, oh, are you OK? And I was like, yeah, absolutely. We we broke up, we cried. And then we got a pizza and watched the movie and they went, Oh, Jesus, was that over?


And I was like, oh my God, you're right. And I will say, I still think of it really successfully because I've only had really horrific things in my life. And this was just a very nice. Peaceful relationship where the partying was very easy. That also was the problem of the relationship. Yeah, it was like we're just both very nice people and we're both nice. You can make something work for a very long time, even if it shouldn't.


And so because we're nice, you know. And so but yeah, it was like, oh yeah.


If you break up and you're able to just calmly eat pizza and watch a movie, like you probably should have broken up a long time before that, which, you know, we had tried before.


But but yes.


But that's also somebody that is just like, you know, it might not be your forever partner, but you got to kind of give it up to somebody who just wants the best for you.


And as much as I'm like, oh, I'm I'm so happy we broke up and I'm so happy that that it's just so wild to even think that was a possibility. Now, in my current life where I'm like, I can't believe I was on the trajectory that said same for him.


This person is probably like, I can't believe I almost married that psycho, which, you know, I mean, like, remember when I was almost going to marry that psycho? It's like I'm so happy for him to live his lovely life. We weren't going to get married, but you know what I mean? Like, yeah, it's just it's just so good for.


Well, everyone could almost get married anymore. Yeah. Why not. We don't we don't know. Yeah we don't know. I don't think we definitely got I was at a wedding and I was sobbing and my friend was like this wedding so beautiful is like this wedding is really beautiful but I'm definitely not supposed to be with the person I'm supposed to be with. But oh my God, I know so different things that it's at different times.




Now knowing where I'm at now with Yasir, it's like, oh I can't believe I was ever going to is I mean do you guys ever think of that where you're like, oh what if I missed what if I missed my person because I was too afraid to break up with someone or you know, whatever like yeah.


What if I had missed this?


I was fully entangled with somebody who was so, so, so wrong for me when I met Matthew. And I've probably said this on the podcast before, but Matt and I met auditioning to host the same radio show in college. We were like competing against each other and then they decided to make us cohosts. And so we have a real Sam and Diane thing going on because we were both like, I should be the host of this. I don't even know why we're like put together or whatever.


But after a while, Matt was like, listen, I have gotten to know you a little bit.


I like you. I would like to take you out.


But you are with this other guy, and I wouldn't feel comfortable going behind his back, so you'd have to break up with him.


Oh, my gosh. Here's the thing. Here's the thing. I can't guarantee that we'd ever go out more than once.


Oh, like, I just don't know.


I like jazz. But what if I can also break up with your boyfriend so we can go out once? Yeah. Yeah. But he was like, I can't guarantee like we won't like each other. And he was like, but here's what I do think. I think either way you would be better off.


Oh right. See this is the full story because it love it. Yeah. The best partners are the ones that like want the best for you regardless. Like even though I'm like telling funny stories, I don't know if they're funny telling stories about this relationship. It's like I, I want the best for him and you know, even like yeah. He deserves all these great things and it's so good we're not together. But it's like you can still be good humans to each other, which is something I didn't learn until that relationship.


I think it's something that a lot of people struggle with and they think that. You know, they get sort of wrapped up in in what the bigness of emotion sometimes and like feeling wronged or just too dramatic about things. It's like if you really are a person that can, like, sit with. Reality in your relationships, like sometimes things aren't as dramatic as they get made.


Do you know what I mean? Yeah, and if somebody is like, oh my God. And my husband, like, had a girlfriend for and you're like, OK, but let's just back it up.


Like what what's happening. Like what is happening there.


And like really be truthful, like even when there is I don't know, even when there's. What's the word guy dishonesty, even when there's dishonesty involved? I think that, like, it's you have to always check back in with yourself about what is true for you.


Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.


And I think, like, for me, it was definitely, oh, I've like finally matured because to be in a relationship where, like, when you break up, you're not like, I hope they die, you know, like that means you've picked better, you've chosen better, you know, whether you work out or not.


If you had a peaceful breakup like you're doing better choosing. Well, guys, I think we did great choosing this.


We can choose and Chelsea to be our co-host. I mean, guys, before we get to our guest, I just want to real quick, what are you doing your best at this week, Casey?


I gave myself a haircut, a pandemic, right, Erica?


And I think I did a pretty good job. It looks great.


Yeah, it's a little Callista Gingrich.


But, you know, I disagree like a deep cut that feels deep. Well, you can look up a picture of Callista her. I would say her hair is the best part about her. But I think that, you know, I did pretty well. The only bad part is I did it with these scissors that I got from Target.


I have hair cutting scissors, but I don't like decorative target scissors that they're like big gold scissors like the tethered people have in us.


So they're kind of scary, but they're sharp as fuck, but they're really big.


So I figured, like, if I'm going to reach back there and cut my own hair, I put it in a little pigtail. It only works for like an angle. Bob, in my opinion, if you want an angle, Bob, you can do it yourself.


If you want love that type of haircut, like maybe you got to wait until the panini is over and here's the secret to it. So you gather your hair and you know, I'm a DIY bitch. I will do surgery on myself if I thought I could save fifty dollars.


So you gather your hair in a ponytail down at the nape of your neck, look at your hairline, and then you get your big, extremely sharp scissors from Target and don't like you don't hold them perpendicular to your hair and then try to like saw through your hair.


That's where people make a mistake in the self haircut. You hold them almost like parallel to your hair and you snip up into the ponytail like a hundred little snips so that you're like adding like a little texture to your ends. And like, if you have someone who can, you know, be back there and maybe help you out if you miss a few strays. I didn't happen to have someone. My husband has helped me many times in the past.


But but because I was by myself, I also did at one point cut the elastic band that I was using to hold my hair where it needed to be. And I did cut my hand.


But those are like overall, you know, just to small casualty is for like, I think a pretty decent haircut.


And now I just have to do my roots.


Looking at it right now looks phenomenal. Thanks. Thanks. And I like saved like sixty dollars because let's face it, I wouldn't have paid more than sixty dollars to get this haircut if I was going to a hair salon.


So there you go. I love that, Sophie. Doing my best stats, you know, I I we're currently hiring writers for the show, and I really wanted to change the way it's done and make the process more equitable. So we did a bunch of crazy things in order to do that. And I'm trying to I'm trying to take notes and write it down so that the system could be passed on if anyone wants it.


Did you talk to Chelsea? Did you talk to Casey about what we did when we did our show?


We did kind of back when we were doing it. So like Chelsea was one of the people that like when I was alone in L.A. and just in that weird, like Universal Studios building would like come over from where she was on the lot to visit. And so we talked about the process back then. And then we talked a little bit about it when she was like endeavoring to do this.


Yeah. And when Casey wrote that, you wrote this great article about how to be more equitable at the workplace and reading through that.


And so then, yeah, now being in the place where it's like you really can have an impact. But the thing I'll say is that, like, we really opened up the hiring process, which also means you've created more work. Yes. And so it's really thinking of which is which is fine for me. But in terms of like other places who want to do this, you have the budget to handle more work. Do you how do you make being more equitable, not something that's also more of a financial burden, like how do you weigh those two things?


And so that's what I'm doing my best right now. I wish I had something else to say, but I've literally been reading packet's non fucking saying I have nothing else to binders of package.


Yeah, just like thousands we have.


And I'm sure you guys got so many more submissions than we did because Jon Stewart Vimy out there. But but Jesus. I mean and we really like people were like you didn't read all of them or like we read every single.


Oh yeah. If people submitted through agents, managers, Twitter, Instagram, like blindly submitted to my management company at the time. Yeah. All of them. We read all of them.


I mean we found she had Chinchorro was. Was Shinjiro through her manager? I don't know if I can't remember anything. It was through me, you guys, I think Shantaram, you had reached out and asked for writers recommend and I sent 10 names.


She also came to our manager. But I remember saying, you can't hear his name.


You know, it was really great to and it was actually really helpful is that a lot of people, like I reached out to a lot of people that I respected saying like, are there people that are like maybe unrepresented or that just haven't broken in yet that you think deserve to have some eyes on them? And you would be shocked at how many people had, like, overlapping recommendations from two, three, four or five, six people. And so that really helps you be like, OK, let me open my eyes to this, you know?


Yeah. I also I find it very because because our packet because we're in a pandemic and people are losing their minds are packet blew up on Twitter in a very weird way, like kind of any moment before this, you wouldn't tweet about a job you're applying to right now. You know, it's just for any job. But what what came out of it is that it's very frustrating for me that there's this thing out there that packets don't get read and people only hire their friends.


That absolutely was the case in the generation before. But like Biz's Cho is here, Casey is here.


Like, there are people here who are reading every single fucking packet and really making efforts. And so I it's like I talk to people who got discouraged from applying to our show because they figured it would never be read.


And it's like that. I have made it every single packet got read, you know, so it's like I wish we could get get the rumor out there of like seeing what the Jon Stewart show, like, I got hired off a blind packet submission.


Right. And I thought, like, oh, someone else would be reading for John. Jon had retired. Jon read every single packet him every single blind submission himself and then picked mine. And I got hired and it's like, yeah, what would I have done if I thought, like, oh there's no way.


It says a lot though. It says a lot that like you almost have to do like a little bit of psychological counseling. Like it's so weird.


Like you're the head writer of this new show and you almost have to like, counsel people. It's almost like therapy because so many people have sort of been burned in this process that hasn't been equitable. And that has been you know, you said it yourself, like Enchanters said it a million times. And I certainly know what I've done gazillions of packets. And like, I can count, you know, on my hands in your hands, like how many meetings I've gotten from the gazillions of packets that I've done.


And it's just like seems weird, especially when you you know, you have eyes.


You compare yourself to other people that are like just getting job after job.


And you're like, how is this happening? Oh, really weird.


And it's and it's weird. And as women, we're taught to be like, oh, well, I'm like having a huge ego. I'm thinking that I'm so much more, you know, talented or equally talented to this person that keeps getting called in.


But then like but then you just are, you know, like you just like you have to admit it. Like you just I just am as talented as this person. I know that I am or I know that I'm actually further along and more evolved as a writer than this person. What's happening? And like, I'm sure something goes into it, like people are like, oh, they're experienced and they know what this is like, like day to day or whatever, but like that only counts for so much.


Like those are things you can be taught really quickly. That's like being taught to fold the shirts at The Gap, you know what I mean? You don't know how to do it on your first day and you know how to do it by the end of your first day. So, like, it only accounts for so much. But it's it says a lot about the process in the past. Yeah.


I also think that there's always been a thing in entertainment, in writers rooms that is, you know, like that the gatekeepers have kept it.


Exclusive by giving the impression that only a very small number of select people are even able to do it and that, you know, and like that, it's just so hard.


It's so hard. Yeah. And that's just not not true.


But also one of the reasons why I like those people, like, they would get keep hiring their friends and those people had more experience and so than like no one's questioning it because they had more shit on their resumes because they just kept getting totally the shots total that it's totally over it.




I will say I, I do. It is very hard to me, but not in the way it's presented to others. Like it's so hard you can't do it. It's like, oh no. If you study, if you said you can do it, you know. Yeah. And and yeah you're right. Like someone who gets in without having talent or without being a kind person or that being a good person to be around once they're in keep they keep going.


That's how it works. You have experience and so you want to get hired.


But all to say is that like to me, that stuff inspires me. Every time I see a horrible person succeed who I know, like you have no talent, you have no work ethic and everyone doesn't like you and they succeed. I go, well, if they can do it, I surely I must be able to have it right because I'm at least working hard and.


Right. Right.


Yeah, it's really interesting.


And also, like, just for anyone out there that's aspiring, one thing that really broke my heart when we were doing busy tonight is that like, you know, if we could have hired 24 writers, like a basketball team full of writers, we would have, because certainly there were more talented people available to us than we had slots for jobs. So I really did try to just get back to people and be like, you were so close, keep going.


You were really in the mix. It's just when it came down to it, we were only budgeted to hire three writers.


That was we like didn't have a spare. Yeah. And, you know, but you were you were really, really close. And I'll recommend you for other things that I hear about or whatever. Yeah.


Like there were people that we met with that like made a huge impression.


And then at the end of the day, like our budget was not so small.




I hope everyone knows that three writers is miniscule and you pulled off a feat, you know what I mean. Like the late night don't sleep. That's why I'm here to tell you.


I'm here to tell you I'm late night staffs. I've been on much bigger staffs than that. And three is well is very hot.


They all are like at least, what, at least ten I would say minimum six.


Minimum six. But I've been in staffs of twelve and for a TV show, staffs of 12 and 15. I'm sorry not to be a nerd.


I think it's a woman thing. When I was at the Rosie O'Donnell Show, that was an hour Daily Show and the show went from like I think it had six writers minimum for like a huge budget show.


And it went down to in the last season there were two.


No. Oh, my God. And it was fine. It was fine. It was me and this guy, Alan Cat. We knew what we were doing and we could totally handle it by that point.


But yeah, there are two writers and I just I didn't like I feel like if a man was hosting the show, they would dig around and find a little more money for their money, obviously.


All right. Well, what am I doing my best at this week? I don't know. That's what I want to know.


Your nails are off the hook. Thank you. I made them short. So great. I'm just trying I'm trying to get all the health stuff under control. I'm just, you know, trying to feel good.


Yeah, I'm just taking it a day at a time is what I'm doing my best at this week.


Um, we had the pleasure of my 90's Teen Heart to talk to Ani DiFranco. It was very exciting for me and Casey, but probably more me a little bit, and it was really interesting. Yeah, and I mean, fascinating. Yeah. So why don't you guys take a listen?


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Hi, Ani DiFranco. Hi. It's so great to meet you. My God, it is love. I meet you. It's such an honor to meet you.


We I am. We are both huge fans. This is Casey Kasem. I'm busy. Phillips. Yeah.


I love your name. Busy Phillips. And I love the name your show. I love. Thanks. I like you already.


All right. Well, listen, I think we're going to get along, so. Ani DiFranco. I don't even know where to start. This is like since you don't know a lot about me, I'm just going to, like, make this about myself.


But you've had such a huge impact on my life and my career and my activism and how I use my privilege and my voice and and really, I've been listening to you all day, and I'm 10 years younger than you.


So when your music was coming out, it was like at a very seminal moment in my life.


And it's not hyperbolic for me to tell you that you are one of like two, maybe three musicians that that truly, like, saved me in such a deep and fundamental way as like.


A young woman in the 90s coming of age in that very fuckin weird time and and I. I can't even tell you how excited I am to be having this conversation right now. Yeah, well, I love that. I'm glad my music could be there for you.


But also on you also like your presence as a trailblazer, as somebody who at age 19 was like, yeah, you know what?


Fuck this. I think maybe we do it the way I want to do it. And I guess because we talk about pivots on this podcast, I guess I sort of want to like start there, which is that you obviously were super talented. You were left school when you were a kid.


Like you started playing guitar in bands at like 14, 14, working for you were like you were like essentially Beethoven, right?


Yeah. Yeah.


With equally ridiculous hair every step.


But I guess.


I was thinking that because I rather think our kids are very similar ages, we have kids very similar ages, and I was reading about how you admire how you think Billy Eilish is just like doing it right.


She's such a badass and the kid loves her. And I was thinking, like, that's so funny the way you were talking about Billy Eilish.


Do you not recognize that in yourself? Maybe that is what you recognized, you know, because what gave you that feeling at 19?


Like I'm going to show you this thing that everybody else is doing, this path that everyone else is taking.


And I'm going to just see if I can, like, put this shit out by myself. What? What?


Yeah, yeah. A whole lot of attitude, I guess.


And yeah. And and and also impatience, like, super impatient. Like, I'm not going to wait around for the team of professionals. I just can't handle and like trying to play the game enough to get the people in my corner with the money and the stuff and the things that help me. It's just like I can't, I'm, I, I don't know.


I felt I felt like my forward momentum. I was on a mission, you know, I just had a I had a vision. I had a and and to all of that seemed like a distraction, you know. Yeah. And the mission, the mission of like connecting. I could satisfy my mission without them. I proved it every night on stage, you know, connecting with people and and that kind of connection, like you talk about the young you that was searching for affirmation or some, you know, like somebody to tell them what they already knew.


Right. You know, there's so many of us. I mean, that's every human being. You need what you already know and who you already are to be reflected in the world so that you know. Right. I exist. Right. That's not a I'm not crazy. This is I I'm in a context. It just was harder for me to find it. And, you know, and it gives you life to see yourself reflected. I mean, I'm the same and people have done that for me.


So, you know, that that, like, actually achieving that kind of connection was happening without the team of professionals. Right.


So I'm so glad that at that young age, because you basically made your own record label at a really, really young age before it was very easy to do such a thing.




Like for people listening who are, you know, of a different generation, this is pre Internet guys, like there was no MySpace, there's no fucking Facebook. There was no no sound.


It was literally impossible what you did and you did and were very.


Yeah, that's kind of that's kind of my one of my favorite parts of my story as it's, you know, being whatever cemented in the world that it was pre Internet.


You know, just just that I think that's a subtle but really important distinction that not only do you not need all those middlemen, even without this technology, that helps you cut out all the middlemen and go from your bedroom to the world even without even without it.


Even before it. You didn't need it. You didn't need it.


I'm here to say that, I mean, it takes a lot longer, and I certainly didn't do it alone.


You know, that's not exactly true.


You know, I had well, my boyfriend and my best friend and then my you know, and they started working for me with me and we sort of built a team and associations.


And over the years, Righteous Babe really turned into a thing that it is now, which is kind of a real record label, damn it.


So it was a it was a process and it took a long time. And I did have the help of my near and dear and my friends and people I trusted and people I thought, you know, that were my people that got involved. But, yeah, it just I like it that I mean, and now it just shows that with this technology, it's that much more possible. Right.


Yeah. But then I guess the question is like motivation.


For a lot of artists, right, because to me, if your motivation is. Financial gain, fame, maybe doing the your own label self, releasing, having a connection with people isn't like the avenue, right? Right, right. Yeah. If you want to fast track it, definitely not.


You know, but you might like to be fair on your first album came out in 1990. Is that when Righteous Babe was like established.


OK, so in 90 I want to say like 98, 97, 98, I saw you play a huge fucking theater in Los Angeles, like where big acts play.


Yes, it was the Mayan, maybe it was the Mayan theater. But like so that's a relatively short I mean it's seven years, but that's still a well, I'll tell you.


I'll tell you and only you because you don't tell anybody.


I actually made a record before my first record. So even before read Babe was kind of a twinkle in my eye.


I was definitely playing gigs, you know, from the time I was, well, whatever, sort of 10. But then when I was a teenager, 14, 15, I start really playing gigs, you know, weekly gigs, hosting open mikes, you know, in the trenches in Buffalo.


And so I would say it was about a ten year ride between starting to record and sell my tapes at my shows.


And being on that stage, you were talking about I man, that's a decade, but that's like for doing it all yourself feel.


And at that age, that is what is so striking to me about your career, is just that at that age, I think about what I was thinking about when I was 14 and 15 and what I was believing I was capable of, especially independently. It's so impressive to me. Oh, dude, but now I look out and there's like 12 year olds in front of me and I look at you, I had no idea a 12 year old that I could be me.


Look at you. Well, that's so that was what was so funny about this article I was reading where you were talking about Billy. I wish I was like, yeah, but you were Billy Eilish.


Like, you are in your brain when you look back on it, you don't see it that way. Well, I definitely know I think that I definitely relate to her as a young the young HONY, you know, the Muppet Baby Ania's I him again.


But but because I just believe her, she's just doing her and she's doing it very authentically and she's coming from a very unique and specific to her place, you know, which is more and more rare, you know, in this world.




But I think the big difference is what we were just talking about is for her, there was a bit of an overnight success thing that happened to her. Her first record comes out, boom, she's ruling the world.


That's got to be a super hard to go zero to 60 that way.


You know, I feel like I wouldn't trade those ten years that it took me to go from zero to 60 because I would not have wanted to be on a world stage at 16 or whatever like her.


You know, the fact that it was 10 years of a long, slow, really, if you were there for the whole thing like me, every fucking felt flow.


Ani DiFranco show. Yeah. And watching. You know, it was a bit excruciating sometimes because, you know, I won't name names, but some chicks like would be opening for me one day, next day, their videos all over MTV for those that remember what that was.


Yeah. And, you know, they're on the covers of every magazine. And I'm back in that same bar another year, another year, another year. And so but I feel like those were very important years for helping me in the in the long run, you know, just to acclimate to what that means to be a public person, to hone my craft on stage. The nights when you bomb and the nights when you say the wrong stuff and do the wrong stuff and forget the right stuff.


And but would you say I mean, you must have like people must have approached you and you still were just very steadfast in your vision.


There was no part of you that was like, well, I could just make a video and be real sexy.


I'm doing. Was there ever the moment where you looked and somebody was like, yeah, why don't you bring this righteous babe over to Interscope and we'll talk?


You know what I mean? Like, definitely I'm sure that what happened there was a lot of moments and I had some lunches.


I had some lunches, I had some meetings. And they were good lunches. I needed food.


You know, I get lunch. I always take the lunch. Yeah, take the lunch. But then I could just and I don't know. And I it's hard for me to even say why I always walked away, but it was just like just like a sense it was like an aroma.


It was like, yeah, I don't I don't know, I don't smell I don't smell it, you know, feeling like in order to be me, I got to go this other way.


Annie, can we make a sweatshirt that says I don't smell it, I don't smell really good.


I'm really not smelling this. I smell it like I but I really, really tasty. And I both I know really, really deeply to that. The unfortunate thing is like for me, a part of in my career at times I was like, I definitely don't smell this, but like I have no fucking choice. I just have to do this this way because I didn't see another avenue. And honestly, you didn't see it either, but you just forged the way.


I mean, we all are working within different parameters.


So I don't know, maybe I was kind of self-righteous in the beginning and like her, I'm done doing it better.


But really, everybody has to make their own choices. So I don't imagine anybody else could do it the way I did it.


You know, I have my friend Scott who went to law school and he knew the law and he knew business because his dad started a business and this and that. And he helped me construct the actual thing that became Righteous Babe records.


Again, I had other talented friends who decided to get involved.


And so I had I had that, you know, not everybody has that. You know, we all sometimes it's like, OK, I got to work the system because I don't have any other way.


And so I'll try to do it my way or, you know, there's a lot of ways to skin a cat.


Oh, my God, I say that a lot. And my daughter, my youngest, my youngest was like, why would you say that I'm fly? Why say, because Arnie says it.


That's why I'm talking about all the people that sort of pitched in to to be your community and help you forward. It must speak to who you were even back then, that people were like, I do smell it. And to have people be like, oh, yeah, I can totally see it. I'm on board. I'm in. Did you realize at the time that that's kind of remarkable to have that ability to have that effect on people?


Yeah, I mean I mean, I guess even at the time, it's just. To when I figured it out, you know, I was a teenager or I don't know that it was like figuring out, but when it started to happen, when.


When I could shut up the bar, you know, 10 people, OK? Mind you, that was 10 people that I got to be interested for for two minutes. But when but then. Yeah, just sort of making that connection and finding a point. Yeah. Like striking someone's interest.


That and and people immediately, you know, I started one of my strokes of genius pre internet was a mailing list.


It was it was called a mailing list at the time. And I started putting it out like whenever I played and people would sign it, they would put their addresses on it.


And then no matter where I was, I believe playing in a, you know, a coffee shop or a cafe or something.


When I started driving around the country first regionally and then coast to coast, like you're going to, you know, in a 69 beedle with my guitar and going and playing these very you know, a lot of my gigs were. Yeah, in Minneapolis, you show up at this address and you're playing for tips, you know.


Yeah. And everybody will be eating.


But I could get somehow I left there with five names on the mailing list and every time I would send a postcard when I went back to Minneapolis, those five people would show up and there was an intense connection that started happening pretty quickly. And I did recognize that that was extraordinary even for me.


You invented data mining and I'm now I'm controlling all of those things. I never.


Well, I have to say, you are like a person, an artist and like a visionary, that I always think you're like one step ahead in your lyrics.


You're always just very prescient in the things that come out.


I even have to say your autobiography came out in twenty nineteen and it's entitled Guys, if you haven't read it, you should get entitled No Walls and the Recurring Dream.


I mean, that's like what we fucking went through in twenty twenty, like just the title alone was like when this recurring dream of has that just always been your life?


Are you just one of those people that's always, like I say, a thing? And then a year later you're like, oh, there's nothing that I said. Well, yeah, definitely, Art, I mean, yeah, yeah, they pretty much that it always comes through the songs first and often I don't know.


What does that mean? What am I doing? What am I on about? And then later on.


Oh yeah.


That's I think this is what I mean here it is happening or what I meant. You know it. Yeah.


I guess I'm just trying to say, you know, that creative process, I'm certainly not the first to notice that it when you tap into consciousness, that is what we all have this ability and probably all do it in some ways in your dream or in your meditation or when you're, you know, running and you get into the zone or whatever it is, that is your way of going beyond, you know, conscious knowing and tapping into something deeper and wider.


And I feel like, you know, when it's really happening, that's what I do as a songwriter.


So I feel like it often. Yeah, I do feel like a sort of a canary, even in my own coal mine, like.




Warning my self about things, about me, even in in the future.


So when you I have a question about the songwriting. I had an opportunity to talk to another songwriter that I love deeply also, who meant a lot to me, Tori Amos.


And and she has a very specific way that she speaks about the way that her songs come through to her, which is like they're these girls, these girls, and they show up and it's like, wow, pretty amazing girl.


But you're kind of truly describing a very similar thing, which is like opening yourself up and like letting it come through.


So how does that work in your process? Do you prefer to do it with others by yourself?


Are you on stage? Are you in your studio? Is it all of the above?


Way alone, way alone, like if there's anybody even in earshot, I feel inhibited.


I mean, I had to I guess I had to really learn because it's hard sometimes to get a room of one town to create and, you know, so I had to learn how to do it when the babies, you know, are busy throwing up on something else.


So I can just think something down or in the tour bus. Some people are having a conversation and oh, I can go into my head, you know, do it when there's other people.


But ideally for me, I'm totally, totally alone. That's when I feel the most free and unfettered.


And it kind of just and what how do you. Is there a way to describe it for you? Like it just sort of drops in or you feel.


Are you like it comes out all at once or is it arduous? I mean, yeah, I feel like it's super subconscious.


I mean, the most thing I would say about how does it work for me is I don't really know because I kind of have to you know, I kind of come to afterwards and it's like, oh, here's a thing.


It's yeah, it's always funny to me, even just the songwriters who work with.


You know, the the the pop producer songwriting, that's a collaboration between the you know, the know it alls. Yeah, right.


The professionals, the team of professionals, that doesn't feel like the same thing to me. Not to be a snob, but.


Well, you can be I mean, like, OK, I'm yeah. I feel like that's OK. I'm OK.


I am both a snob and a fan, you know of everything like of my you know, so I think there's value to that. Yeah. I mean I feel like the minute I mean one kind of collaborate like the Billy Eilish. I'm collaborating with my brother because we understand each other and beyond words and we have this creative synergy. And there's a like that I get as a as a really primal thing happening.


But when you're working with sort of more, let me translate you and make a product out of, you know, saying like that seems fundamentally different.


I feel like I like one.


Have you ever written for other people? A little bit, a little bit, did that happen in the same way? Well, gosh, I haven't done it enough. I mean, I think I'd love to do it more if anybody wants my help with something.


I'll let you guys know you heard it here first. People always say, go, he's in her own planet. She doesn't need us. She doesn't want to hear from us. But I do. I do. I'm lonely.


Annie, we're all lonely right now. Like, oh, I'll write you a fucking song, you know what I mean?


Seriously, everyone on their own planet. No.


I mean, I haven't done it much, but I guess I try to do the little bits that I have, you know, I try to invoke what I do, that kind of riffing thing, but stick with the person's energy and intentions like they're they what would they want to express and what fits them and what do I have in me that I could sort of method act that.


Yeah, of course. Yeah. It is really interesting to me, like in thinking about how I mean and also you're incredibly prolific, I think, as a songwriter and and your songs are I mean, you have some of my favorite lyrics of all time, which we won't go over right now because that would be probably bad podcasting.


But things that like I just to this day, I'm like, what the fuck? That's the greatest line of all.


But I do wonder if, like those people who are songwriters by trade who are writing songs in the machine, if if there is an element of like I got to channel this person's yeng, I'd love an honest song for Beyonce, you know what I mean?


Like, I'd love you to do like your version for Lizzo or for some, you know, I'd love to see that, like, oh, man, I love to see anything.


Lizzo Oh, I just love her to say my name. She's a back. I just point just point in my direction. She's the fucking great. Um. Yeah, well, you know, it's interesting.


I wanted to bring this up in.


This might be a wild thing, but you're talking about how you write a song and you get into a state of flow and you almost come to and then how those ideas, like a year later, you see them sort of like popping up like blooming in the world.


But I would like to also posit that I hear the influence of your music in so many places. I hear it in Hamilton. Like the first time I heard Hamilton, I was like, that's Ani DiFranco to me, you know?


So do you ever feel that do you ever listen to someone and you're like, Oh, I believe that person listened to me.


Oh, well, it's hard it's hard to know sometimes I do, yes, sometimes they do it again. Here I am again with the smell. Yeah, I can smell a little aroma, a little aroma like, oh, those flies buzzing in your verse. Are those the flies from my side? I think.


Yeah, there's little. Yes, but I would never guess to know. I mean, it's so hard I think for I don't envy music critics to try to pass it all out.


You know, where does this person come from? What are they made of? Often we don't know ourselves. Right.


That is true. Right. Well, that's what you're saying to and for you. Your new album, which I love and I loved the song Do-or-die, which came out right before the election. It really was a do or die situation. Yes.


Who? Yeah, a moment of a moment of exhale, I mean. It still is fucking bonkers, right, like I do feel like we're all kind of coming to you from my dog is really scratching. Can you hear her? It's like I let her in. I just hold on.


So sorry. No, it'll be me next.


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Yes, come pooch, pooch.


My pooch has been on most interviews with me too.


OK, so now that are now that my beautiful little puppy is here I feel like.


One thing that speaking of Do-or-die, and you're like very clear, the the weaving of of your social activism and being political throughout your entire career, this isn't like ordinary Franco guys again. If you aren't a fan, I don't know why you're listening to my podcast to begin with, but already. But if but if you're not super familiar from the moment you showed up, you were like, this is who I am. This is what I stand for.


These things are this is my art. And these things are not they're not separate entities.


They are like one, right?




And was it ever a concern to you that that would be polarizing and that you would lose out?


Geez. Of all of my concerns, that was not one, seriously, yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, get in.


I got I got a lot of flack for sure in the beginning. Holy cow. Just writing ft female songs.


And, you know, from my experience and which includes being dicked around by, you know, or the powerplays of, you know, gender power plays and all kinds of experiences that are inherently female.


It was crazy.


It was crazy in the early mid 90s how much I was an angry woman and I was a man hater. You know, I was really sort of characterized and pushed. I was some kind of extremely angry militant, blah, blah, you know, just.


I think for just talking about what it's like to be a girl, right? Yeah, yeah. And but none of that pushback ever, ever hurt ever. I mean, that's a lie.


It did.


It was it hurt and it was hard, but it was nothing compared with the affirmation it was it would all disappear in an instant when some chick would come up to me and say, oh, my God, thank you, you know, and tears would come to her eyes.


And that would be that all the pushback was worth it.


I mean, is that was that like part of the impetus behind writing a song like Joyful Girl where you're like, hey, guess what? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's funny, my dear, when a dear friend texted me recently and he said back when you were a joyful girl, they were all like, why are you so angry?


And now that you're a love bomb, they're like, what? Did you lose your edge or something?


Right. Well, what is that?


Yeah, as a woman in any industry, you know, what do you do with that?


That thing where you're like, I'll never be able to be the things that you want me to be, guys?


Um, well, I mean, I do feel like I was have been a part of the opening up of all kinds of marginalized people.


I mean, females being one or queers or people of different hues and all kinds of ways that we are cast aside and that our voice is turned down.


And, you know, you know, there's a lot of really, you know, it's like righteous, righteous rage, righteous outrage about it all.


And and I feel like there's a lot more room in society. There's more overall more and more recognition that so many people are carrying so much weight. They're carrying all the weight and and that it's hard to.


Yeah. And sometimes you do just want to lose your mind. You just lose your mind at the unfairness of it all.


And and I think that, you know, there are people, of course, who experience way more unfairness than I and and somebody but even like a rich white dude can feel with other people, everybody has the capacity to be outraged and locked up at all is.


And so I feel like there is more tolerance, especially I mean, I got to give it to the Chitto.


Oh, God rest his soul.


I you know, my I have a I have a friend who who described him as he who awakens us, which I really dig, you know, it's like, OK, you know, I think I noticed from my vantage point besides like since he was elected. There I have never been so hopeful. Yes, because it's like suddenly I can drop the P word, I could say patriarchy in polite conversation and people don't just run, right. They actually.


OK, well, maybe we should talk about this. I mean, even the word thank you, Cheetah, even the word feminist. Yeah. It has all of a sudden ceased to be a dirty word, you know. Right. I remember when declaring oneself a feminist was like not the thing that people wanted to hear. And they would and they would say, all right, so you want to die alone.


Yeah, which is exactly. Oh, man. Mad like.


But now it's like since, you know, twenty sixteen I think there's been a lot of improvement.


Yeah, yeah. Yeah.


Oh people write old stuff out of the shadows, you put it in the light and then it's like oh I guess we should talk about it. Yes.


We're just reminded of the coining of the phrase feminazi by Rush Limbaugh who just left. Oh. And like how how he was able to popularize that term. Yeah.


And I was just saying recently that I kind of I'm kind of sad about having come of age in the 90s because I feel like there was this weird pushback where people just went around saying feminazi and like it was not only acceptable, but also like kind of funny.


And I think it was just like really fucking confusing, you know, as well as girl.


Confusing. Yeah, right. Like because we were like, given the images of Monica Lewinsky and like Amy Fisher, the Long Island Lolita and Lorena Bobbitt, who was an abused woman who like reached her breaking point and was made the fucking punchline of a joke for years.


And then at the same time. But like, God forbid, you want to stand up for yourself or God forbid you want to say these things like it. We are very convenient.


I mean, fucking confusing. It was absolutely confusing. Deliberately. Gisli made to be confusing.


I mean, that was when the sort of right wing think tanks realized if you control the language you control thought, you know, and if you take the only word in the English language, that means that means women should have rights and opportunities equal to men and you demonize it. If people can even say it, they can't be it. Right.


Can't you know.


And and it's very powerful to mindmeld people in that way, you know, controlling language, which is something I feel like I was aware of even before I had words for a language for it, you know, like taking the back, take it back.


You know, this is and I've been sort of out there fist pumping with the word feminism for a long time, like, yeah.


Why are all you women who obviously want to be free, who obviously want to be self realized people? Why don't you call yourself feminists? Look it up. This is what it means. Tell me tell me why.


What's bad about that? Yeah. And you and you were never a hypocrite. I guess that's what that's what makes me hopeful about twenty, twenty one is that I feel like people are finally starting to call out the hypocrisy and in particular the way that all people of color and women are treated where you can't do anything right.


Like you should protest peacefully, but then you're going to get fired and you should speak nicely. But then that means you're a doormat and you should speak forcefully. But then that means you're a bitch. And I think this is the first time in my lifetime I've seen people say no, like you can't have it both ways.


You're being hypocritical. And so that's what I found so confusing. But you never were a hypocrite. You were always like, this is who I am.


Yeah. Which was brave. Yeah. Well, you know. Yeah. All that stuff that you just just described, it's one person, it's one type of person dictating all that. All the perspective, all the language.


Here's how you are perceived when you it's one type of person deciding all that, but you can look around you now and you can see other voices are coming to the table.


You know, Shirley Chisholm, people were talking about her recently with our new vice president. Was this, like, super radical, incredible African-American woman in politics in Congress way before that was even possible.


And she had this great saying, if they don't give you a seat at the table, bring a folding chair.


You just yeah, you keep putting your voice in. You keep speaking up. And now I mean, it's palpable for me. It's like I've been on this planet so long now and I look around and, holy cow, you can see the difference.


You can smell it. It's that it's not a male gaze, right. There's or it's white gaze. It's not. You can see culture and and media and, you know, artistic expressions coming from other perspectives, real indigenous to other perspectives.


And they can blow apart all that that logic of, you know, the control group. Yeah.


The control group, which is control. That is truly what it is. Yeah. It's fucking wild.


When you were talking crazy, I was thinking I think one of the radical things about the way I wrote when I started writing songs that was palpable but hard to put into words is that not only was I speaking from another perspective, I wasn't even. Talking back to them, I wrote a lot of songs, you know, like by my fella said the other day, yeah, like everyone harbors a secret hatred for the prettiest girl in the room. The I think the most extraordinary thing looking back on that line is I'm singing to women.


It's not even I'm not performing for the male gaze. I'm not reacting to the male gaze. I'm not engaging the male gaze. I'm speaking and to a whole other place.


Yeah. Then then the control group. Yeah.


That's one of the reasons that I think your music is so meaningful to busy in me is because all we've been doing since we've been like friends and working together is asking just to make a thing that's mainly for us. You know what I mean. Yeah.


Like if other people want to watch it, that's OK. You know, we made a TV show together and if if guys want to watch it, that's great.


But it's mostly for us because people aren't doing that, you know. And what I say is like, I'm not asking to take over the entertainment industry.


I just want as many chances to fuck up as every guy I know has ever fucked up. You know what I mean?


Like, I want to be I want the opportunity to be as mediocre as all of my guy friends, if that's what I'm going to do with my chances.


Yeah, you could never be mediocre because that's very sweet.


Just the given is that you're already entering the room with way more.


Then mediocrity, it's just funny. Tonight, I said a line from that same song. Now I'm just going to tell you one of my favorite lines of is, is imagine you're a girl just trying to finally come clean, knowing full well they prefer you are dirty and smiling.


That is like that is that's written on the inside of my brain since high school.


And for me, like when I released my autobiography several years ago when I testified before Congress about my abortion, when I talked about my abortion on our late night talk show, it was that's the fucking thing, right?


It's like, why can't you just be sweet and smile and, like, grin and bear it, honey? Like, why why do you have to show up and give us this?


And my feeling is like because I don't need to fucking hold this shit anymore, because Ani DiFranco told me in 1996 that I didn't have to and it has taken me almost 30 years.


But bitch, I'm here. So no, but that is like really incredible and speaks directly.


I set it to my husband Mark and and I'm like, this isn't for you.


Like, you know, it's just like, I'm sorry. I don't know why even it's not for you, Mark. Like this is for this for me.


You don't know what that feeling is. Yeah. You know, he doesn't. Yeah, yeah, and just there's nothing I just. Yeah, no, amen, amen to all of that.


And just like standing, standing up, standing up in a moment and and and ruining chances for something, you know, I mean, you wouldn't do that.


All those things that you were talking about unless you understood that you have a connection, you have a you have a natural allies ship with other women.


And that we it's like we all we all fly or none of us fly, you know.


Right. Well, that's the truth.


And and how many people are like you that are willing to sacrifice their own whatever in the moment to just to be accountable to something bigger?


It's it's a it's a hard choice to make in the moment. But I feel like every time you do you agree me that every time you make one of those choices it gets easier. Yes. It's like, yeah, right. Yes. You just start doing it. And lo and behold, you still exist. And in fact, life gets better. Yes, not worse.


You meet all the cool people by going that way. Yeah. That's where all the good people are, right. Yeah. Yeah. How do you instill that in your kids as a parent. You personally, I mean, I figure it doesn't matter what I say to my kids and it so I don't so I don't hold myself to getting it right all the time.


It just really matters who I am and what I feel. Right. You know, they feel they know what I feel. Right.


So if I if I show them that something unfamiliar is interesting and you move towards it because it's it's going to be really exciting and you're going to learn something, which I really deeply feel inside me.


And I feel blessed because my mother showed me that, you know, she didn't say you should not be afraid of the unknown.


You know, she just she she leaned in when there was something unfamiliar.


And that I think has been the great blessing of my life.


So I try to just show them the the the version of me that is like really psyched here and and really can't wait to get up and learn some more shit from some people I can't even fathom.


Do they think you're cool? Because my kids really don't think I'm cool at all. And then I don't know. I think that's right. They can't possibly cool.


I think in in four years your kids are going to think you're cool. My kids think I'm really cool. Oh, good. I mean, you would you are you have boys. Yes, yes, it's true, I. I mean, right, right, that, yeah, girls, nobody wants to look in a mirror, mirrors are fundamentally uncool.


So, yeah, yeah, my older kid prefers they them pronouns is gay and out and it's wild.


I was talking to them about my interview with you and like explaining.


Who you are to Bertie and I was like Bertie, like Orny was essentially like the first openly bisexual, like woman who was out like in music in that way, the label Queer.


This is the thing my kid never understands that like the label queer is relatively new, you know what I mean?


It didn't really it wasn't really it wasn't really a thing. And like the early 90s. Yeah.


I mean, I was rocking it.


I've always loved it because it just it's so open, like not not conforming to not the standard but the beyond that, it's just different.


You know, I'm I've been learning a lot in the past few years.


Berdy as my child is the like really just eliminating the he she like the binary all together is kind of the move in a way.


And I it was the thing is like, you know, a cis gender white feminist girl growing up, I never that wasn't a part of my scope of knowledge or understanding.


Well, you only know what you know, guys, and then you got to learn more.


You know, I've just been learning to take, like, so much sexuality out of everything because, like, even as like a heterosexual woman, I'm not a heterosexual woman for everyone, you know what I mean?


Like, I'm just like, yeah, it's just sex is only between you and however many people you're having sex with or having or like that heterosexual is such a big umbrella term.


But I'm like I'm really only heterosexual for like a handful of people at most.


I mean, now now you're getting into, I think, really exciting territory, which is can we just get off the identity train? Yeah. Stop everybody being so concerned with what I am, what I am, what I am.


This is what I am. Because I think the more the deeper truth about human beings is this is this moment. This is me in this moment. Right.


I'm a changing, fluid growing thing.


I mean, I think identity politics has been a useful, you know, to to, you know, bring out onto the table the fact that certain identities are elevated above others certain are in control. Others are delighted.


But after doing all this work for so many decades of of inclusion and diversity and, you know, trying to like, I wonder if we can start to look at all of it, all our identities as constructions and bring some more fluidity back into it.


Yeah, the masculine and feminine, that's that's a new game. Right.


Like her maybe it depends on the day. And and I think everything is that way, really.


We've got many times on this podcast. Gender is a gender is a construct. Everything is fake.


Right. Your kids, my kids, our kids are changing the game and changing the language and opening it up and pushing envelopes.


That's awesome. And I think that's something that came through my songs is just a lot of different things came through.


But other young women saying, oh, there's an aspect of my life that I find here in this music that I just can't and and a reality of my difference and of my secret oppression, you know, that is recognized in this work. And so it's like, OK, I'm not crazy.


I'm a round peg in a square hole in this world.


And I wake up every day and think, is it me? Because this seems off, you know.


Yeah. And all of those things. And so I think we need to continue to move towards awareness of patriarchy even while blowing open the gender constructs.




So when you were writing these songs that, you know, you're writing from your own personal experience as a young woman, were you feeling like I'm the only person in the world that feels this way? Or were you confident that other people would see themselves? Because I know that in my writing often I'm putting something out where I'm like, I must be the only person in the world that feels this way. And then it feels so good to me when people come back and say, oh, no, exact same thing.


I'm exactly. So I'm curious if you are always confident that there were other girls and women like you or or were you surprised to hear?


I was surprised, but I was I was seventeen. Yeah. And and the minute it started happening, the minute I sort of opened my mouth. And started singing, from my experience, there was somebody there to go. Yeah, me too. I can't tell you how many times I heard the word shmita, you know.


Over those decades, so instantly the that the affirmation was there. Oh, I'm not alone, you know, it instantly came back to me. That's incredible. That's incredible. Yeah, super beautiful, I mean, it and it made me it made me I was like you guys, I was in the process of just trying to do what felt right for me and just trying to heal myself in in some very personal way.


And then when other when I started to connect to other people, it it gave me a place to be in the world. Yeah.


It it worked for me too. You know, when you put yourself out there and you find you're not alone, we're all less alone.


Yes. It's also the.


Thing that I think a lot of times people shy away from or they or or prevents them from like breaking through, whether it's an hour or I don't even know, like just in real life or just with interpersonal connections is is the truth, like is the reality of yourself.


And like a lot of people want to put up a lot of other things that they wish they were that they think of, you know. Having the ability to kind of like strip it all away and lay it very bare and and really, honestly very. Beautifully said, but like in many ways, very simply is what is the thing that allows the connection? I think and I think sometimes, especially with social media now, people get very confused about what they think, like an authentic expression is, you know what I mean?


And so they're like playing at an authentic expression, but really are like that doesn't ring true because it's not coming from your person, like from your actual.


Cor, yeah, yeah, I do imagine for young people it is I mean, I don't envy I do not envy them, but coming up in the age of social media, I actually can't imagine meeting me at 20 now.




You know, when everything you say lives forever and is judged by the world, what a what a situation to try to become your son and make mistakes and say one thing one day and another thing the other day, and I'd just be growing and changing and, you know, make mistakes, which is the most important part of growing.


I don't know how you have the bravery to do it in this type of culture in this moment. And when everything is a performance, like people are performing their everyday lives. Wow, that's a lot that's a lot of of self-awareness.


I mean, I think for me, I had this I was so I feel lucky now to have been doing that and and all pimply and metaphorically and literally when it when it wasn't living forever and judged by everyone.


Right. But I think I think most people lack self awareness now. I think you had like a great deal of self-awareness. I think the people that are sort of able to connect even through this weird time or whatever have a great deal of self-awareness.


I just think that the people that come off phony are the ones that kind of don't. Our lost in the performance, right? Yeah, like if you're aware of what you're doing, always in a way.


Right and it's right, I don't know. I don't know if I agree with you.


And I think it would be really easy to get lost in it. Now, as a young person, you let your kids have social media.


Yeah, my 14 year old, four four oh oh oh the world she lives in, she's I have no idea what world she lives in every now and then she appears in the kitchen when she's usually chewing.


But sometimes she'll speak to me and tell me about her world.


Wow. What's the what's the pandemic been like? I mean, first of all, releasing an album. This is the first time, I would imagine, in your 30 year career that you're not touring to support an album. Yeah. So what are you doing?


This is a very.


Yeah, I mean, for me, it's such a blessing, I mean, of course, there's financial ruin involved in all sorts of things, you know, not I mean, I'm trying to be funny, but, you know, but for me, the blessing of being home for a whole year with like that's never happened or having two kids and leaving them behind with my partner.


And the strain on every relationship in every direction is just, you know, just so hard and actually bringing me in to the brink.


And so I'm so grateful.


I you know, because like my 14 year old, like I was just talking about, I have to just kind of be around. Right. And I have to stay up late like I do because she'll come down into the kitchen and she'll tell me about her world.


But if I'm not around to catch it, you know, you can't just come off to her and say, OK, it's OK and now go.


Yeah, you know. Right. You just have to be here.


And so finally, I am given permission. Yeah, that's incredible. Yeah. A little bit of a bit of a silver lining to to a disastrous year.


So. Yeah. And I mean and I love my job. Yeah. I love traveling, I love playing music. I love all of it. But this is like my dream come true. Yeah.


Because they have to stay there with you. You know, I don't even have a choice.


Right. Right, right. My 14 year old is talking to me. She says she can't talk to anybody else. She's perfect. Yeah.


Well, we I love the new album so much and I've been playing it since it came out in December. December. Right. Is that right? And what is time on it? Yeah.


Yeah, an illusion. It's an illusion. Turns out we didn't know, but it was and I feel like I know that. So I started I started acting professionally when I was 19 years old.


So I was oh, kind of I guess the same ages ago when I started when I was like became a professional person. Right. Yeah. I look back on things. This TV show that I was on is now like when I was 19 is now streaming to my kids.


And I watched it the other day and I had like a while. Yeah, I had a real it was a real mind fuck moment, let me just tell you.


And I was like, couldn't believe it was me like it trip. Yeah. Oh. And my memory of the thing is so different than what I saw and. Oh wow.


So as you look back thirty years ago to your album and the things you were saying and the songs you were singing, do you feel like it's someone else?


Do you know her or are you just like, no, no, no.


Exactly like you.


Who I, I don't and yeah, often no memory whatsoever.


Like I'll put on a record and it's like I've never heard it before, but I made it, you know, stuff you know I seriously like. Holy shit. Oh that's cool. Well what about that. When I was going to ask, you know, say is it not do you listen to it and you're holy shit, this is good.


No, I said, OK, well, first of all, I don't put on my record. That's not a thing I do.


Have you made your kids listen? Because like, people think it's weird that I made my kids. I want to know what they said.


I want to know what they were like. Burtie, they see you.


Yeah. See? Well, no, no, they Burty was like, your voice is so different.


You don't even talk like you don't talk like that. That's so weird.


Yeah. They were just like they like the show but they thought that it was me and.


Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're just like, that's not you. That's some other person too. Right.


So they agreed with you. Yeah. I saw what you saw. Yeah. Right.


Which is a person whose identity was temporal and who is a whole other thing now that this is whatever you thought you were, that's it was that moment. That's but that's fucking it Orny. That's the whole thing. It's just temporary. Yeah.


Whatever you think you're you are right now, it's just just wait twenty five minutes. You get out when you get you keep going and going and going with that. Right. Yeah.


Who are you, who is the spirit inside you that ignites that form. I mean there's no name for that being there's but that is you.




And everything we wear along the way is just what I've been with my husband since I was 18.


And I always tell him you've been married to so many different people.


Yeah. Like, thank goodness you've liked them all and loved them all. But I've been like seven to ten different people. Since I met that guy, well, thank goodness you liked all of his, that's cool. You know it's true. It's true.


Yeah, I know, right?


Yeah, you'd hate to you'd hate to find out that three years ago you were nailing it three years ago with my favorite, Kathy. Yeah. OK, Annie, we're going to let you go back to your family. And I we've taken you for too long. But I know that Casey has been dying to ask you about working with Prince.


And I have I can see it in your face, Casey.


You've been holding it in like such a good would, such as Princess, her number one number one man, husband of all time.


Represent. Represent, yes. Oh, my gosh. Where there's no words. There's no words. I mean, he's just he was other he was superhuman. He was a super human creature. It was just a parent.


Yeah. Obviously I don't have to, but to get to be up close, it just didn't change. It just got more vivid. It was just. It's a very rare being, obviously, where it's sort of like you could just any moment that you're looking at him could be a poster that you hang on your wall.


There's just no bad shot, you know. Yes. No off moment.


There's just a super vivid. Iconic thing happening at all times, I mean, I had my first hang with him. Was that Paisley Park I was just telling some friends the other night, because we they were talking about their tour of Paisley Park, you know, Posthumus, you know, after. Now it's a museum. And I was like and they were saying, have you ever been to Paisley Park?


And I was like, yeah, I have one time. And, you know, he invites me to play on his record.


It's completely insane.


You know, I show up with my cheap ass guitar, you know, and he wants me to play on a solo piano ballad and I'm pooping in my pants.


And I don't know what the key is to, you know, to save my life.


And somehow I got through it. And then the best part about that evening was then we're like, let's jam, you know? And so it's Maceo Parker, another just iconic musician, Larry Gram, you know, these prince. And then like some of Prince's band that he was working with in musicology era.


And these dudes show up and they're just bad asses to the to the one and me, you know, and and watching Prince watching Prince jump from instrument to instrument and be completely vivid and iconic no matter what he touched.




It's like sitting at the drums like, oh, shit, you know, people or, you know, guitar, bass, whatever, basketball.


So, you know, just oh my gosh, I love that this is a game I can play all day. I love to just think about Prince and his life, like exactly what you were saying is so, so genius, because I like to think of like he must have had a moment in his life when he was cooler than he ever had been and cooler than he ever would be again. What is that moment? And then I try to find a photo of it.


But it's impossible. It's impossible to know. But it's a fun game.


I really love it. Keep it up. Keep playing. Oh, that's always with.


I was I was actually not going to ask about Prince because I get a little weird about it and I talk about him on every podcast. So thank you so much for generously telling me your story of him because it means a lot.


Thanks for saying his name and and keeping his spirit in the air. It's a beautiful, beautiful thing really is.


We love him. But Casey loves him the most guys. A lot. Lot. Yeah.


Well, Audie, what's going to happen next? Tell us, you know, the future. Well well, I mean, I don't know me.


I'm I'm hot and heavy with the Righteous Babe radio now mechanising free Internet, streaming radio, a lot of programming, working on a lot of that shit.


How do people get to get it?


Oh, I mean, you could go to the Righteous Babe website website and there's a radio page and there's we even have an app. But the the all the app does is just you can hit play on the station and see what kind of craziness we're putting out there on that given moment.


And I'm working on a children's book.


Oh, amazing. That's kind of hard. Crazy to it's a different muscle.


Everything. Yes. Yeah, I'm searching for it in my body.


Is it is it is it a picture book or like a early reader. What is it.


I'm actually toying with a couple different things right now. It was the the publisher who released my memoir and they said, hey, do you ever consider young readers? And I thought, OK, I want a pandemic. I'm considering a lot of things.


You got excited. Yeah. Yeah. Also working on a musical you are with that came but came out of this prison music project record that I did.


That was all songs written by people in prison. Yeah. Wow.


And one of the people that I met through this project has this unbelievable story of restorative justice, which is something I believe in very deeply.


And hope can grow in this country. It's like a whole other idea of justice system than the one that we have. So he has this experience of 10 years after his crime coming together with the survivor and the transfer. I mean, it's a story that I think holds the template for our whole society, like after relationships, super breakdown after violence, that is unforgivable after everything is gone to hell.


What next? Yeah. Oh, my God.


What do you do? How do you come back together? How do you how do you forgive? How do you transcend anyway.


So this story where he's a bunch of prison music project, you know, people and the the person himself, Leicester are busy, were writing the play right.


Now you're going to make it hopefully a musical. About some very heavy stuff. Yeah, but it's just such an extraordinary story, so there's that going on.


That sounds incredible when you're ready for investors. I'm here. I don't know if there's a part for me, but but I definitely would love to help in any way.


OK, so I had a friend go start a record label at 19. You have I don't know how many albums, 25, 30, 40, 25, 22.


Let me to several books. And now you're like and I'm going to do a kids book and I'm going to do a musical based on this incredible idea and collaboration with others and lift their voices. And I mean, honestly, I can't wait to see what's what's going to happen in the next 10 years.


I don't know, five, four, what's time I can start, but this time it's not. Thanks, babe. Thanks for giving my art a place to go. Oh, my God. In this world, I mean, I love it.


I love it. I believe that for us, whatever you got for us, we'll take it. And it was so great to talk to you and thank you for sharing with us to talk to you, too. So nice to meet you.


So thanks for your really thanks for hanging out like I was thinking. OK, all right. It was so. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Bye bye. Bye.


We're back. It was exciting.


That was exciting. What was interesting, I knew that I admired Ani DiFranco as an artist so much. But what was exciting about that for me is that I really liked her as a person.


Yeah. Oh, I had to win. I agree. And I also and I also think like I feel like, listen, Casey and I have had a lot of experience being sort of like. Burdened by the man. You know, like throw me in the ring there. Yes. You're like trying to, like, work for other people and just getting, like, fucked by them and lied to and just also just like information withheld and all that stuff.


And I think that that's so empowering to hear a story of a woman who from the jump was like. I know this seems impossible, but I'm just going to do this all my own, because what I want to do, I should be able to handle this and like, not being motivated by.


You know, the idea that in order to be successful or make a ton of money. She needed. Like a system around her to support her and in fact, at the end of the day, the one that ended up like being the most supportive and giving her all the success was truly herself and the people closest to her that she hired in her own company.


And I feel like it's really hard in entertainment. And it was what Casey and I were trying to do, pre pandemic. We were trying to put together our own projects sort of independently with like a whole different sort of method of doing things.


And and I feel like we keep sort of getting roped back into the same fucking bullshit in a in a way, you know what I mean?


Yeah, and I don't feel like you and I have truly, like, actually just been like, fuck it. We're just going to do some stuff by ourselves. By ourselves, like really by ourselves. Yeah.


I think you know how you always say that thing about how you can what's the thing you say you can be talented, you can be kind, you can be talented.


You well, you need three things to succeed in entertainment. Chelsea, here's here's what I'm. This is my. OK, I'm ready for you. I didn't make this up. Somebody else did. But you have to have talent.


You have to generate goodwill and you have to be hard working.


And you can exist for a period of time, have success for a period of time if you have two of those three things. But if you don't have all three at some point or another, it's going to come crashing down and you will like everything will go away.


Can I add an addendum? Yes. You can be an evil person with no talent who's very good at convincing people you're worthwhile and be successful for a portion of time, but you will have an unhappy life and it will come crashing down at some point.


Yes, sure. So I feel like there's a corollary for what we're trying to do.


And I think that it's got to be something like you can.


I don't know, I have to, like, work it out on scratch paper, right, but it's got to be like you can, like, believe in your mission. You can Neimann you or you can make money, but you maybe can't do both at the same time at the beginning, you know, maybe like something like that.


I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Orny was like I know that she sort of was like seven years was a long time or whatever, but I was like, was it like, you know, she she became really successful pretty quickly in terms of.


I don't know, maybe she maybe she would have had quicker success if she had been with a major label or had I mean, hadn't just started her own thing.


It's really interesting. I mean, this, you know, we're talking about the 90s where, like independence was really in vogue and smaller projects were really a big deal. And, you know, she did mention in the interview she certainly saw people becoming more successful, kind of leapfrogging her and and lapping her in terms of like financial success. But she stuck to her mission. And I think there's something to be said for that. That's you know, I've said that probably to my detriment in every meeting that I've ever had is like there are things that are as important as money.




You know, for me, what I've really come to wholeheartedly believe is that people really want great work, great content. And if you are willing to put in the work to just do your own fucking thing, that almost always makes the best content without a bunch of other people fucking your shit up. And then those people who want to make money off of you will find you. They'll find you. Everyone wants good shit. It's like when you break leg.


And that's why I love why you guys have like your company, because it's just like you're just going to make great shit whether you do with other people are on your own. But the moment you're like, fuck off or do an interview, what 10 billionaires will be like, can we help make a profit off of that?


You know, people want good work. They just do that. I'll never go out of style like something that's good. You know, the video that's funny.


It always goes viral. It's just how it works. True. It's true.


Get at us billionaires. It is very funny that everything is kind of like ass backwards. Like, you know, companies are constantly trying to make things that are quote unquote viral.


And you're like, yeah, but that's not how it works.


Like people tell us if it's viral, we don't say like if it was up to me what goes viral, everything I do would go viral. But here's what I will say about myself that not no, everything doesn't go viral, but some things do. And that means that I have a decent track record. So if you want to work with me, it's it's just it's very funny trying to do what you love and make a living at it and it gets very weird, very fast.


But you love it so much that you just can't stop even though it makes you sick.


Yeah. Like we learned with me, the best way to get like the acting job of your dreams is to declare that you've quit acting and they have no interest in it.


And then what's so frustrating, though, sometimes this business really rewards like it's not that it's apathy, but it's like, you know, the auditions that you do best at are the ones you don't give a shit about. But I think that first off, I'm a try hard. I always try hard. So, like, if you don't try hard, it'll go well for you. It's like this is such that's so unfair, right. Yeah, I care.


My quitting acting wasn't apathy. No, no. It's acting was like heartbreak. Yeah. Like I can't like I at this point like self care for me is saying like I cannot do this one more time where I get invested and excited and like want a thing to come to fruition that then gets like so close.


And then I was like crushed and totally, totally, you know, I'm a conspiracy theorist. And and so I even think it's like, well, entertainment centers around power, you know? And so there's something powerful in convincing someone who said never again to say, OK, one more time, you know what I mean? So whether that's like people within entertainment, it's fun to convince someone to reverse course and to change their mind. Or maybe it's just like the universe being like, come on, bitch, you didn't mean it.


I'm going to yeah. I'm going to make you eat your words.


Yeah, well, I will say, like Tina Fey notwithstanding, like the universe really did, like, lay it out.


Like I could not say no to that obviously.


But I did get offered like a movie, you know, and that and the it's like the kind of thing that, like any version of myself before the last several years would have been like, this is my fucking dream in life to do to like be offered this and like whatever.


And like, it just it just what I couldn't do I couldn't make it work because, like, it just wasn't it just couldn't work. Yeah. Just couldn't work. Yeah. Yeah. covid and like my kids are in school here and like I just it just couldn't work and I felt. Fine, I love that, I love the guy was like I wasn't, like, hurt, I wrote like a really nice letter to the director thanking him for offering it to me and saying how much I would have loved to, but like, quite frankly, just couldn't make it work.


covid my kids. Yeah, money.


That's so much growth, too, because when you're an actor, you're just trained to say yes to everything. And that never end in a way of like your there's a thousand of you. You should be so grateful for us to mistreat you. And it's hard to make that go away. So that's huge growth. And secondly, I just want to say, as someone who's been in the table reads and seen the clips from the show, Bizzy is phenomenal in this show.


I mean, you're really phenomenal. It's really hard to imagine that anyone else would have been this character.


And and, yeah, I can see why it's your dream job, because it's it's it's a perfect role and you're great at it.


Oh, I'm so nervous. I know you're so great, but that's crazy. The characters in I mean, I do Chelsea. I do like a crazy thing on the show. Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. But that's why I think that's why I'm saying you're so great at it because it is a role that requires really like being psychotic, being hitting really hard laugh lines, but also bringing depth and sincerity and groundedness to it while hitting these like whack a doodle moments.


And like that's a hard that's a hard needle to thread.


I mean, it's literally my life's work is threading that fucking needle. Chelsea All right. Should we go?


And we were going to read a letter, but I don't want to make this podcast three hours long again, because everybody is, you know, yelling at me about as though actually no one is no one's yelling and yelling.


People are just mentioning maybe it could be shorter, but then, like a lot of you at home like it longer. And, you know, here we are. We're stuck between like business people and people, people, business.


I mean, categories. I always er on the side of people, people, people. I'd like to cut all the business people out completely and I think I might.


But here's the here's the thing about podcasts. It's really easy to turn them off. Like if you turn off the podcast right now, it was an hour ago so. Yeah. Oh my gosh.


OK, yeah. We can save the letter for next time. Maybe it will be yours.


You know, I do want to Chelsea, I need to know if you know where you're living. Yeah, in New York right now, I need your help so badly and please, please guide me because I want to I want to love New York. This time. I would I'd put all my money to bet against it, but I want to love it. We're going to love it together. I've learned a lot in these past, I guess.


How many months? Six. Yeah. So that was six, five months. Some months. I've learned a lot. I'm getting my footing, it's fucking freezing today, which I'm mad about, but next week someone said maybe the 60s, so I'm excited about that.


OK, I just like I have thoughts. I have feelings. I feel like I'm really getting my bearings here. I feel like I know where you guys would be.


I'm going to take some of your I'm going to, like, live under the cloud of your good energy. This is really bringing me a lot of excitement. I'm so excited about the job, not about New York, but now I'm feeling totally different.


This podcast is bit like here's here's another question.


But what if you then just stayed and jumped back on to Girls five EVA?


Oh, my gosh. I totally didn't even think that if it comes back, it'll be in New York in person room. So here's another thing. I've never met a single person in a room. We wrote the entire show on like I don't know how tall people are. I don't know if I'll recognize you. Like we lived in a zoom box. I've never met anyone in person. Why do you understand that?


I didn't know what anyone looked like.


That is crazy. Outside of the people I was acting against Wigo I could not pick out like honestly.


When Meredith took her mask off, Meredith created Girls by bye bye, guys. When Meredith took her mask off the last night, everybody was doing this thing the last night where they were like, take dipping their masks down so people could see their full faces.


Yeah. Oh, my.


I don't know why we didn't think to do that in the beginning, but anyway, it took us everyone was scared, you know. Yeah, but so everybody like took their masks down so we could see their faces. And Meredith, I was like not what I expected like that in a bad.


Not in a bad. Yeah. Oh beautiful.


Different but just like totally changed my whole impression of her face. They're like my favorite Matt. When he showed me his lower half of his face, I was like, what are you sexier year will to you?


I'm going to show you my jaw line.


I was just recently shocked by learning that somebody I had been working with had a mustache. And it really floored me that I accidentally saw his mustache. And that is like so funny. It's like back in, you know, back in Victorian times when you see, like, a little ankle and you're just like, oh, my God, I have to sit down.


Oh, yeah. Oh, I just saw this woman. I swear to God, it was really strange. It was really. Yeah.


I also like that Meredith is so great, so smart, so funny. And also she was my boss. Right. So in my head again, so fucked up because she's my boss. I'm like this woman, six foot tall, six feet tall. And then at the we played a game where we guess each other's hides and it's like she's like five, three or five. She's a peanut. Yeah. Tiny little cute person. Yeah. I don't like her.


I mean we've spent a lot of time together. We've never met in real life.


That is so weird and funny. Yeah. But yeah. So I don't know. I have high hopes for pivo. Thank you.


And New York I Volman pivot vomit and vomit and it just. Yeah.


Just if you have to vomit do it, try not to vomit but I'm really at trial.


But also as like the elder statesperson of, of this friend group, I feel like just you know, just no matter what, no matter how you're feeling, whether you're feeling fantastic about something or whether you're feeling doubtful about something, nothing is permanent, you know what I mean? Like nothing. Yeah. No show, no relationship, no life, no living situation, no job, no pet, no friendship.


And like, this is going a dark place. But I see that it's very positive.


It can be dark, but it can also be positive because when something really sucks, it's not going to last forever. When something is really great, though, it's also not going to last probably forever.


So you should remember that and you should just like suck it in to yourself and like live it because nothing is going to last forever.


Like your your kids are going to grow up and people are going to move on. So just no matter what, nothing is forever.


So even if New York is terrible or wonderful, either there's a light at the end of the tunnel or just like bring it into your body like sunshine and just, like, live it up.


This is really invigorating. You guys switch things around for me today. Thank you.


That is that is such good advice.


Well, Chelsea, we were so lucky to have you as our guest host today.


So, so honored. Thank you for having me on. And for all fans of cases, she's already been on my podcast for fans of Biz's. I'm going to be reading and recapping her book on my Instagram and then deep dive into and a podcast episode.


So if you haven't read it and want to read along, I'll be your guide.


This is a time to do a celebrity book club with Chelsea de Vontez. You can also find her on Instagram and she's also on Twitter. You should watch all of her projects, including girls.


Coming up, and we just love you so much, we love you guys so much, and I also love your merch. Thank you. It's my cue to shoot these days. It's a mindframe. Oh, thank you.


Yeah. If if you haven't checked out the merch, we're working on new merch. We're trying to do like a spring refresh. So, I mean, if there's anything that you've been dying like, you're really wishing that there was like a piece of merch that existed. I guess let us know and we'll we'll let you know what we come up with.


We have time to make your dream, Yanzhou. So, yeah. So we want to make everyone's Bertsch dreams come true. Try to make your dreams come true. Yeah.


I mean, it's Super Bowl on the way. All right, maybe not.


But you guys. Until next week. We love you, we love you, bye, I love you, too.