Transcribe your podcast

I don't know. How's it going? Let's go pretty good. Go ahead. Monday, we're so close. You guys were so, so close Wednesday. God damn it. Are you.


Did you press record Shinjiro?


You know, I did it. Well, here we are. I literally thought about it. It was like I should press it and then I did it and you did it and talking.


You guys going to dress up for the inauguration? Are you going to put on a special outfit? What are you going to do?


I'm no, no, I'm not going to do that. I want to, like, make something good. Nice dinner I thought would be a nice hope that nobody does anything bad.


Yeah. Yeah. Have a lot of hope for that. Yeah. The apparently there was a fire that they had to evacuate the inauguration like.


So did you see that. They're like they have to visit the National Guard because they're like yes. They're like a lot of people from the National Guard are here, but we're like trying to get them because we don't know if they'll try to kill somebody.


Oh, my God. It's really weird because a number of times I've gotten background checks, like when like Al Gore came on The Rosie O'Donnell Show and Hillary Clinton did and they background checked all of us. And I was like, did they stop doing that at some point where the background check, every single person, I think.


Well, I think that there's we have a bias. Welcome. Welcome to this very special episode of. Busy Phillips is doing her best with.


Shintaro Jackson and Casey St. On will also doing their best, how their respective best, I, I think we're at a very interesting time because I think that the call is coming from inside the house, Casey.


So I think that any shout out to Drew Barrymore is fucking in the house. In the house. It's a real scream situation.


Matthew Lillard is in the house. Spoiler alert. Davis That's who fucking did it. Yeah, I been thinking a lot about this because I was thinking about that.


John Oliver last week tonight that aired around in June, like around the protest, the BLM protests, they really always seem to nail it and.


They did defunding the police one in June, and they highlighted a city in the country and I can't remember it as now, guys, I'm sure you can go find it.


But basically what happened was they were having, like every city in this country, like every place in this country, but they knew they had a problem with the police force. They wanted to fix it. So what they did was brought in like a private consulting firm. And then every single person had to reapply for their jobs and then and then receive retraining. And like not everyone kept their job. I mean, most people didn't keep their jobs on the police force in this town.


And it was a huge overhaul. But it's like made a gigantic difference in this town. And, you know, it just was so illuminating that they were able to highlight that, because especially when ever I've posted diff on the police, people are so quick on my Instagram to like. How are you going to go when somebody is blah, blah? First of all, that's not happening. You're not calling anyone. Go fuck yourself.


And secondly, like, that's you're missing the point entirely. But I do think, like, obviously it's just been now, you know, everybody's seen it time and time again. So we have to like I hope that this becomes a priority for this administration. And I hope that, like, they figure it out.


I want to point out that in my husband's town in Massachusetts, when he was growing up, there came a time where they fired the entire police force for corruption and that that happened. And that town is still there. And it seems like it all went fine. I'm sure they have police now, but there was a time when they decided to just clean house.


And, you know, yeah, I think that it's clear that, like, look, you know, even in the insurrection, the capital, whatever, and like you see, like the one officer who like leading people away, you see the other officer who, like, had to be who was like trying to get who was going like they were trying to kill him. And he was like a few people, protesters started to help him or whatever.


And then the guy with the neck tattoo, neck, hot neck. Yeah. And. And he's like, I guess I would say I don't I thought about it, I guess I would say thank you, but also fuck you for being I was like, OK, maybe that guy gets his job back. I don't know, you know what I mean? Like, I just think that there is I was thinking about what you had said, Shinta, about teachers as well.


Oh, God.


That's in this episode. This interview you guys are going to hear. Yeah, but we also but I've seen some tweets that you've had online and some of our other friends have chimed in as well with their own experiences with racist teachers. And the majority of teachers in this country are white women men. And that needs to shift as well, like we have to do like a complete overhaul of who is educating children and what biases they're bringing into it.


Oh, absolutely. Because I talked to my my grandmother about this because she was, you know, in a segregated school when she was younger and she was like it was the best. One of the things that I think people often don't think about is that we think about desegregation. It's like, oh, like we we stop the racism. But what happened was in the black community, teachers were so revered like black people going to college back then was a really big deal.


Right. So you go to college and then you come back to your community and you are the teacher. Right. So what happened was all these students, these little black kids were being taught by people who cared about them, loved them, understood their struggle, and literally went to college so they could come back and give them the education they deserve. Then they desegregated schools and they put all those little black kids in class with racist white women. So I think that when we talk about the education system, it's not just like, oh, that teacher is bad.


We inherently yeah, we desegregated, but we didn't take the racism out. Right. We have all these amazing black and brown teachers. Right. Who can not get a teaching job because the white schools wouldn't hire them. So now we have an entire generation of teachers that are white women. Right. And that's. Well, but like. Well, it's not it's actually not great because of what's happening. And I have to say, because I do so much stuff with like I love I love teachers.


I love librarians. I love people whose who get into the business of helping others gain knowledge. Like that's the most noble, amazing thing in the world. Right. But if people haven't confronted their own inherent bias and their own inherent racism, then they're going to go into situations and they're not they can't they're not prepared for it. And they don't know how to to meet it. They don't know how to meet the challenges.


Just because something is a noble profession doesn't mean that everyone that does that job is a noble person just because people have the best intentions. You know what they say about the road to hell, guys.


Yeah, exactly. I've just been having conversations with a friend and classmate from high school who was he was the star basketball player like he was like a nationally ranked high school basketball player. And from my perspective as a white girl who was friends with him at the time, and he he really never said anything at the time because I'm sure he was doing what he had to do to get through everything. But if you would have asked me, I would have said, oh, his life must be really cool.


He's a star. He's very celebrated. Everybody loves him. Everybody bend over backwards for him to make it possible for him to do his best at basketball. But now that he's grown, he started to talk about a lot of the problems with racism in the school. And it's it's horrible because you see it play out. He'll post something about it on Facebook. And then some kids that we went to school with will say that didn't happen. I never saw that happen.


And it's just like the same thing that, you know, that we keep seeing over and over again. Somebody saying, like, well, I didn't see it. And it's like, well, why would you see it? Were a white kid in that school?


Yeah, I think one of the things, too, is so wild. Like, people are like, well, I didn't see it. I don't believe it. It's like you tell your kids about Santa for years. It's like if you can just be like, well, my kid never seen it, but if I tell them, we'll believe it. You can compartmentalize so many things that I like work for your life that you've never seen. And like, honestly, Santa is like a very generic example.


So, like, it's so interesting when people are like, I could never believe that. It's like, what would you do it last Christmas?


Wow. It also really it's it stresses me the fuck out.


Santa, you're like being believed as a really big deal for me because of whatever set of circumstances in my life. I feel like there have been a lot of times where I've said this is what's happening to me. And somebody saying, like, maybe that's not happening or, you know, whatever. And so when I was a little kid and I would watch Sesame Street and nobody ever believed Big Bird about Snuffleupagus, it would almost make me vomit. Yeah, because I would be like, he's telling the truth.


Big Bird's telling the truth, you know? So that's how I feel in these situations.


It's really like it's very wild, stressful. As I got older, I literally talk to my parents this weekend. I called them to thank them because I didn't really fully understand, like, how much work they were doing until I got older. So, like, because one of the insurrectionists was like a therapist at like a school like that was the tweet.


This is what I'm talking about. Yeah. I saw you tweet this and you were like and you told the story that you've told on this podcast.


Yeah. About your own experience with a racist teacher as a little kid. Yeah.


I mean, like so this this if you haven't heard it. But like this when I was in high school, I was freshman in high school, I had like just got my first cell phone. So I like it was so funny. But my parents have always been like, you can call me, I will come get you. I believe you. So this teacher our freshman year in high school was like really mean to me. And I had never had an adult be mean to me as a child, which is like very confusing because like, I was like I've always been kind of a class clown, but like not like bad like I had made good grades and sometimes I'd say stuff, but like, she was really mean to us.


And I told my mom and my mom was like, call me. And I was like, OK. So I got up and I went to the hallway with the. Note here that my dad got me for Christmas and I called my mom in the hallway and she came to the school immediately, we went to the principal's office and that teacher started crying, saying that I was rude to her and you were being mean to her.


You were a child, were bullying her right wing, her and my mom, who's always been so great at advocating for me. And I didn't even have the word for that when I was younger. I just knew coming get me right. And my mom goes, what did she do that was mean to you? What happened? And she had nothing. There was nothing. It was just this she thought and she cried and said that I was bad, that that would be the thing that was lie.


And she would be believed because she was pretty white woman.


Right. So I called my mom this weekend because, like, you don't think about what happens in your childhood is traumatic until you get older. And then, like, my partner was like, that's very traumatic. And I was like, oh, shit. So then I called my mom and I was like, thank you so much for believing me. And my mom was like when I was younger, people didn't believe girls. She was like and like, it's so much bigger than what you might think.


And my mom was like when I had you, I made a conscious decision to be like, I will always, always, always believe. Yeah. And then I call my dad, too, because a lady teacher called the cops on my dad and one time and the cop ended up being an old football buddy of my dad. So that's like a whole nother thing. But that was like you can leave me and my dad left and I'm like, whoa, like that could have fucked up my whole life if my dad got arrested on school property because some lady decided she was scared, like, it's crazy.


And I called my dad and I was like, thank you for always coming to get me. And he was like, that's my job. I will never believe anybody over you. And he was like, because when I grew up and I was like, holy shit, all these people are carrying around so much stuff that you don't even think about both of my parents who do not like each other very much at all. Exactly. And I was like and both of them were like, I didn't want what I saw happen to other kids when I was younger, happen to you.


And I was just blown through, like being like my parents are nice and it's all like, oh, they're trying to protect me from so much racist. It's hard.


I mean, but here's the deal. Like, you know, your parents experiences obviously informed how they chose to parent you. Some people don't make so people don't make those leaps. Some people don't do that.


And like, it is worth honoring that your parents were like made it better for you in that way, you know what I mean?


Because sometimes parents are like, well, I had a fucking hard you know what I went through. Yeah. Suck it up. Right. Yeah.


It wasn't until I'm thirty three this weekend being like being able to pick up a phone at any time and call your parents and be like I need you to come get me is is a big deal.


Yeah. It's actually a great, it's a great parenting lesson thing for me to hear and probably a lot of people listening where I was speaking of gaslighting, speaking of this is like a theme I think every probably most women know. Have been Gasol some point in their lives for sure, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, and there's nothing first. And I was texting with a friend over the weekend who has recently gone through their own really intense year of being gasless by somebody.


And I was like, you know, that who said that the thing that Taylor Swift them like you suggest, though, like there's a special place in hell for women who don't support each other. Well, anyway, I said that there needs to be a new one.


That's like there's a special place in hell for men who make women feel crazy in order to avoid the consequences for their own terrible fucking behavior. Oh, yeah. And their friends that, like, prop them up and are like, bro, you couldn't help it. She was making you miserable.


I saw this too busy that somebody wrote, but it really resonated with me and really speaks to what you said. It was like a man will be like, how dare you bring up what I did to you and tell me that it's bad. You're bad for bringing it up. And it's weird. But you guys know that, you know, the email that I sent back to that person from my book who was so upset about being in my book.




How dare you bring up what I did to you. Yes.


I'm so sorry that I have made your life temporarily, momentarily uncomfortable by bringing up a time when you were an asshole to me and it ever occurred to him that maybe he didn't need to send me an email to let me know that he now felt he felt bad about what he did.


I was no, I was making him feel bad. Yeah. Not about what it was about bringing up what he did, what it's like that. What's that quote where she says about telling your stories?


Well well, there's the there's the animal, not one that I have, like, taped to my computer, which was if people wanted you to write. Yes. More warmly about them than they should have treated you better.


Oh, yeah. They would have behaved. I behaved better. Right. Correct. Well, speaking of which, I want to get into a few things.


First of all, guys, we apologize for our snafu last week and that you didn't get the podcast on time. That's why we decided to release this one a little bit early, because also we want you to focus on the inauguration. And if you're going to make a nice meal for yourselves or wear a special suit or a T-shirt, I don't know what you're doing, how you're honoring this historic day and our first female.


Vice President Harris, first woman of color and first woman, first woman to ever go to HQ, I mean, she just got to she got a list of firsts today, so she just did it.


Yeah. You know, cricket takes such offense when I keep saying it's the first woman. She's like they all had wives and a lot of them have had daughters. And I was like that. It honestly is fair. But anyway, so it's like there's been a lot a lot of like, really fucking wild. Celebrities, too, are doing their best at just being wild and wild in the streets, on the streets.


OK, before we get to wild ones, can I just say you want to know who I am? You know, I would never care for a man, but do you know who I have been thoroughly enjoying these last few days? Who are second gentlemen? Douglas Imhoff.


Oh, you love me so I love him.


I love Doug because he is doing his best. That is a he seems like a nice man who loves his kids and fully supports his wife. And now I'm into it. And like I've been on the Internet obviously all the time, being kind of miserable. But to things that my Jewish friends have been posting that's been really funny to me is people being like, fucking awesome. I can't be a senator before I'm thirty three. And then another guy was like, well, speaking of that dog married a vice president the bring home.


And I'm really enjoying this man Twitter in the last couple of days and it's good there.


It's a high bar now for him I can marry. Yes.


And what you can accomplish and I mean and it's very fun to me just being like also another guy, a friend of mine who's married to a black woman.


And they were like, shout out to all my Jewish brothers who are married to like hot, powerful black women and the Jewish little fucking winter park being, like, so beautiful.


You know, it's my take, you know, at my back.


So it's like if you if you're having a hard time, please go to I don't know how you find it. Douglas Imhoff, stand, Asaph stand young Jewish man, Twitter. I think it's hard to find and black Twitter, but it's very enjoyable.


Well, I'm a fan and I think that Doug is definitely doing his very best this week. And I'm so excited for a second.


Gentlemen, it's so cute. And so you I want to see what he will do and accomplish.


And Dr. Biden is just always my fave. I love Dr. Biden. So, yeah, I hope that I know I know that Dr. Biden is going to do some incredible things as first lady as opposed to.


Be bold, but never mind. I'm not even giving you a to matter. I would not give her a tour. But the thing that's been so the level of petty, she doesn't need a tour.


She's been in the White House also, like at this point, I'm kind of glad they're not going through all these latest political circumscribes.


Like, you can't be like an asshole for four years and then be nice in the last two days.


Yes. Well, which brings us to that text message I sent today. I sent it to you guys so you can read the chat. Listen, I'm going to take it to the podcast, too, because I feel like this is why not, right?


Because along those same lines of like, let's come together and unity and all that bullshit.




It's like there are certain things that are just, quite frankly. Unforgivable if people aren't willing to like. Acknowledge and pay the price for. Their whatever their actions. Exactly. You know what she did here. Thank you. So anyway, the person that, like we have known for years, went to D.C. to the rally.


This is a person that's like the insurrection rally. But oh, yeah, the the the the bad.


I just like I just feel like a rally is such a polite word for it.


Whatever it is, it's a fuckin attempted dumb ass. Like not the girl who. Anyway, so this is a person who like I don't know, we don't see all that much like but like some people that we're very close with our friends with too. And like so we would be like parties and whatever and. You know, I was just like, fuck it, I'm going to send a text message because I need to say some something. And so I said Sherida should I read what I wrote.


Sure. Go for it. I said, hey, it's busy. So I heard through our mutual friends that you were at the rally in D.C. last week that ended in the insurrection and attempted dumb ass coup. I have no idea, nor do I care what motivated your reason for being there. But when you're at a protest standing shoulder to shoulder with Nazis, you're standing there against my family. Just to give you some context, Mark and our kids are Jewish.


I testified before Congress about abortion. Our child was gay. What you did by showing up there, as you showed us, that you don't give a fuck about my life or Marks or our children and ask someone who we have considered a friend. I have to say, this is truly, really weird and upsetting. You've been to our home in Los Angeles. We've shared meals and tequila shots, and you've been to my kid's birthday almost every year.


Do you think we should be dead? Do we deserve to die for our beliefs and for fighting for equality?


Do you believe that black men and women and children in our country deserve to be treated like second class citizens? Because the people you were with in D.C. do believe those things. In fact, one of the reasons we left L.A. is because of threats. Regardless, there's no chance in fucking hell I ever want to see you or speak to you again. Please tell your wife I said hi. And I'm deeply sorry that her husband is upholding white supremacy. What a fucking bummer for her.


And I mean, by the way, so is she.


You anyway, having her back probably won't land back, probably.


But I just felt like I was like. I had that I had that moment I hate I don't like doing stuff like that, I really don't know. And I know what they thrive on. It's the nicety, right? We have. That's right. It doesn't have to because it's like, you know it and we say nothing. And then you go to their city and those people act like everything's fine. Right. You walk around with your stomach in knots all the time, being like this guy's probably a Nazi, but he wants to get nachos, like you have the right honorable thing.


It's so wild that in our society, the uncomfortable thing is to call out the. Yes, that's impolite to say you are hanging out with Nazis. I really do feel like personally, for me there have to be consequences. I do. I have had family members who have said, like, you know, that's the beauty of America, that you can believe this and I can believe that. And I'm like, the difference is my beliefs don't harm anyone.


They don't actively harm anyone. They help people. Like that's what I live for. And your beliefs are asking to treat people as less people than you, less than human. And so the consequence is, even though I love you and you're my favorite relative, we aren't in a family relationship anymore. And so this is that. And that sucks. And it sucks to have to explain that to the rest of your family. But I just think, like, there's there's entirely too much like, oh, you know, but it's family and you love each other.


And I'm like, if there's no consequences for it, what people are just going to keep doing it. There's also there's also this thing where people will be like, well, your family just be be nice. It's like, why don't you be nice to the good person? Why does the one of the little queer nice person being like, Please, Uncle Joe, don't say the N word, what does that person get uninvited to Christmas. Yeah.


How about an Uncle Joe.


That's the thing that's been like so wild is like so many people being like my whole family abandoned me because I did this and it's like, no, your whole family is complicit.


Right? Right. I just think that that like that word is the word for twenty or twenty one. I complicit. Yeah. And I want people to recognize where they've been complicit. I recognize where I've been complicit. Maybe I like to be honest with you. I had heard that that person was like had voted for Trump last time. Did I say anything to them when I saw them like that? No, I didn't. I didn't. But you know what?


Yeah, fuck that. Yeah. And I just feel like that is like part of my white privilege that I am like facing, which is like giving other people a benefit of the doubt when like Shinjiro, you don't get a fucking benefit.


Oh, no, I'm going to cry. You don't get a benefit of the doubt from fucking white supremacists. My kid doesn't get the benefit of the doubt. Yeah, the Silverstein's don't get a fucking benefit of the doubt. And so I'm. What am I giving these random ass? Assholes like Polite Pass, I should make them feel as fucking uncomfortable as they make everyone feel around them by their by their actions and beliefs and their and the way that they whatever vote and live their lives.


Well, it's also really creepy because I'm sure this person knew that Mark and your children are Jewish. I'm sure this person couldn't avoid knowing about the fact that you testified in support of abortion rights. And it's very strange to realize that, you know, you're standing next to this person.


Yeah, I think really, I all I always go back to Thomas Jefferson. I think that Thomas Jefferson is the perfect example of, like, how people, like, compartmentalize, like he raped Sally Hemings a bazillion times. They had a bunch of black babies and then his children were his slaves. And like I think that people always are like, well, I voted for Trump, but like, I love black people. They compartmentalize. They separate it.


Because to be racist in America is to wear it like a Klan costume. It's like being anti black is not the same as racist to so many people. It's like, oh, no, no, no. Like, I'll never forget when I was a freshman in high school, I, like, hung out with the I was a first flute player and I was hanging out there that and like during jazz band, sometimes we would go get lunch together.


And one day she was driving and we were just like talking about like crushes that we had. And she was like, well, that guy is really handsome talking about this black kid. And she was like, but my dad would kill me if I ever brought home a black guy.


And it was like so casual. I was in her car. She was driving me. We practiced all the time. Would she say she's racist? Absolutely not. Even back then, I was like, oh, then you get older. You're like, oh, that's so anti black. Her dad instilled that in her. But what her dad would anybody ever say her dad was a racist? Her dad sat next to my dad in concert time and watched us play in the band together.


So I think people have to really open their minds to what is something that should be called out like that seems casual, that's casual racism, or just be like, oh, that's my preference. But you're like, oh, like, that's racist. And I think that you're thinking that the only way you could be racist or anti-Semitic is if somebody fucking is a Nazi or if somebody has on a Klan nullable. It's like your cousin, your cousin pisses me off.


And yeah, it's all the way that what ways that people it's like these rallies, these rallies, whatever the fuck they are. I mean, like Trump made them popular right now during these like these hateful rally things. So you can see who they are now.


They're going to kind of like squirm back into the woodwork. Right. And the secret to, like, keep pushing forward is that we have to, like, hold those people accountable. Yeah, right. And call them out and like and have them. Fuckin face, Forsett, face on it. Yeah, own it like own what you are. It's like my favorite thing, it's not my favorite thing.


It's I hate it actually, but like being a white person and being in comedy, I can't tell you the millions of times someone has made either a misogynist or racist or homophobic joke in front of me. And it's so, so, so common. And they're like. Why would you think that, like, I'm the person to say this in front of so the way that I always respond is I just always say I don't get it. I don't get it.


Tell me what the joke is like. Explain to me and then you can't say I don't get it like four times before they have to be like it's funny because it's racist. Oh my God.


And you know, like if you say I don't just keep repeating, I don't get it. And eventually the person will have to admit. Yes. Explain to me why this is funny. And then in seven moves or less, the person's going to admit that they're horrible.


Well, that's so much work, too, because, like, I you guys, you know, I did improv and it's a lot of, like, guys who say some fucked up stuff in there. And I think one of the things that ends up happening is like. There are like another like white man should say something, you know what I mean? Like what ends up right? It's like the the nice blonde lady has to go up to this white dude and be like, hey, man, don't be a homophobe.


Are like the only black girl in a class of twenty five white improvisors has to be like, well I guess I'll run across the stage during this really homophobic thing. So like it's like there's been so much because it's not that we don't. We're the only people who see what's wrong, but it's like we're the ones with skin in the game, right? And it's like everyone has to act like you've got skin in the game. It can't just be us.


Everybody has to act like we have have skeletons. Christian Tara, have you ever had this happen where someone says something racist, misogynist or homophobic, like on social media and it causes enough of a stir that, you know, that people notice. And then because I've had that happen and then I'll have people will defend me like nice people. Nice friends are like people that I know well do me and be like, I'm really sorry that that guy said that or whatever.


Like, don't fucking say sorry to me and go tell the guy he shouldn't have said that.


Well, that's this is where this is where it's like, listen, I know most of you out there are women, majority white listening to us, probably some of my beloved gay men sprinkled in, some other people.


You may identify a possible career, I don't know. Duluth, Minnesota, the coastal areas of Duluth, Minnesota, shout out.


But this is where. The liberal white dudes can go fuck themselves because I have stood on so many, I have been in the eye of being objectified or being whatever on sets and those cool white dudes, like laugh nervously and walk away. You know, like the guys who would consider themselves, by all accounts, are really good guys, but they won't do the fucking next step, which is to say and even now I'm thinking about it and I probably will say something, although I listen to the podcast and then he'll hear it like, guess what, Marxian isn't a fucking text.


It shouldn't just be me sending the fucking text and some of our other friends. Should send him. Oh, wait, you'll have to bleep his name out. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, like, Marxian should send a text to that guy that I sent the text to today, you know, and some of our other friends should also, my friend that I was texting with who first had told me about the that they had found out this person had gone to the rally.


That person's husband should text as well.


That way, it's very easy to be complicit because honestly, they're not necessarily nonviolent, but nonconfrontational. It's how oppressors want us to be when they are so confrontational. Right. But in order for us to get anything done, we just have to be nice. But like, that is so fucked up that people are messaging you and being like, oh, man, I'm sorry that happened. And it's like, if you don't say anything, if you're not going to say anything to help stop it from happening again, do not message the people that have been afflicted at all.




Can you imagine if you saw somebody get hit by a car and get knocked down in the street and then you just defend them later? I'm sorry, I. You got hit by a car. Well, then I just. I just. I let you in the street, OK, you're doing OK. Any type of confrontation is uncomfortable, but when you break it down to even like a small confrontation, like, say you're working with someone and something they did wasn't the way something should be done.


Like, is it? Is it more comfortable to talk to someone else that you work with and be like, that's really fucked up the way that they did that? But it's not productive or helpful. You have to go to that person and work it out. But that confrontation is uncomfortable and we all avoid that type of confrontation to the nth degree. And then we get these messages of like politeness and unity. But politeness and unity aren't really productive.


And here's the thing, too. Like I have talked in the past about radical honesty and about how I've been trying to live my life, my personal life, my like public life as much as I can with like being as honest as I can with the people around me, but also like with myself. And when you are able to do that, like, really fucking start to look at it and take away, like, the shame and the other shit that, like, has been perpetrated on you and just sit with, like, what the reality is.


Have I done enough for Black Lives Matter? Certainly not. I certainly have not. That is like one hundred percent not in question as far as I'm concerned. I can do better. Like how do I need to address those things and move forward? How do I do active anti-racism work? I don't even think cricket like knows anything. I haven't talked to that kid about anything I wasted all my energy on anyway.


So the all though I do like the run free, wild and free, I will say I am glad I am I am happy that thanks to me and a Harris and her wonderful, wonderful children's books.


Yeah. The one about her Aunt Carmela and her mom Carmela and Maya's big adventure. And then now she has a new one out called Phenomenal Cricket. Does know who Kamala Harris is. Yes. Thank God. You know, cricket was the one that, like, thought Donald Trump was a cartoon character.


He is a blessing and a blessing. She was correct.


I mean, she kind of was like she couldn't like she really could not wrap our head around the fact that he was real and she was like, no, mama, no. He likes SpongeBob, Mama. Like, no, he's not.


This was years ago. Obviously not. Cricket now is like very grown up.


You guys see theory bashe.


She's a sparkling conversationalist. She really does love to chat with guys, I have breaking celebrity news that just popped up on my phone and I got texted from several different people.


I just have to say that our celebrity bingo cards must all be just wildly.


Here's the thing. This year, we always see this as a writer. If you wrote any of this shit into the the biggest fucking CW teen drama of all time, the network would have notes that would be like, oh, no, no, no, I don't want one.


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It smells like my vagina candle that she peddles on goop exploded into flames in the living room of a UK woman who won the product.


In a quiz, the candle exploded and emitted huge flames with bits flying everywhere. Jody Thompson, 50, told, How does the outlet explode?


I also read that the the male enhancement, whatever that she sells on her website is the same that Alex Jones sells on his website, or hers is called like Digg dust or something.


His is called like magic penis power. I may also look it up and make sure that's accurate, but I just saw that I was like, everybody put in some bullshit.


I mean, I just I don't know, I, I think probably what happened, if I am to guess the candle was cold somehow, like, yeah. Really cold. Like the woman had kept it like in a basement or something. Yeah. And it was freezing and just mentioned a little box that had just come in from the mailbox and she was like, I want to smell what this badge smells.


And then she lit it up and then it exploded. Because I remember when I would work at sea, they really had to be careful when those glasses came right out of the dishwasher. You could not put the Arnold Palmer's immediately into them or you would have some exploding glasses on you for sure.


That was a lesson that I saw repeated many times at California Pizza Kitchen in Scottsdale, Arizona. Anyway, yeah, there was Gwyneth Paltrow as vaginalis candle exploding in a ladies house.


There's the Armie Hammer stuff which I got real fucking upset about the other night.


By this dark. It's like I mean, everybody is having a good time with it online, but it's it's pretty dark. Are people. I mean, you know, it's been an ongoing meme for I feel like it's been like days, but it's just here sorry. Now I thought I was going to say that, like, I just watched the Tiger Woods documentary. There you go.


Is it I heard it was kind of bullshit because I heard that it's like I think it's various cronie and I think it's very good because he's like a really fucked up person. And yeah, like, I didn't I knew that he, like, fucked up, but I didn't know how long you been fucked up. So, like, it was just like very interesting in that aspect. But I think that what's happening is that like we kind of been like armies with armies, with armies.


We're really weird. And then like as we slowly, progressively, like, start peeling back the layers, you're like, oh, this is abuse. And that's what is that's what the Tiger documentary. I think we all start with making fun of these people because it's funny. Right? And like, the hope is that you move on. But if you sit on any of that shit long enough, it always comes down to like some type of abuse trauma.


And that, yes, something in that kind of documentary, like I watched it and like they were talking about his dad and he was like, yeah, my dad used to aggravate me all the time, but like, now I'm old enough. And it helped me. And then one of the things was like, Earl gave him a safe word that he was aggravating him too much while he was doing psychological warfare on this 12 year old child. Yeah.


That if you said the same word, he would let him just play golf. And then Tiger said, But I never said it because he told me if I said that safe word, I'd be giving up. And I was like, you gave him a safe word and then took it away.


And that would let him be immediately and immediately took it away. And that was my that's abuse. And I think that's what happened with Army is we were like, here's a weird little kick boy. And then you're like, he's a weird looking boy. Oh, no, this is abuse.


Well, this is what meets the eye, that part of it. The part where he's married and we know his wife, she was on busy tonight and I have been friendly with her over the years and they have little kids like that. Part of it makes me so deeply sad.


Yeah, but then when I was, like, really thinking and thinking about today's guest, Glenn and Doyle and her amazing book, Untamed, and I was thinking about her chapter about how we don't raise boys right. In the United States.


Well, because I went through several stages with, you know, I loved everybody did.


And I love him, Angela Bassett, strictly and honestly djangirov.


But, you know. But you know me. I'm never surprised. Oh, yeah, absolutely. You know, like I always am always disappointed but never surprised.


That is the I'm just I'm like.


And last week when sort of breaking like I was like, that can't be right. Like, I'm sure he was just like he had. But now I've, you know, done enough deep dives sitting on set, waiting for them to call action that I feel like I have a lot of really dark things in my brain. But that but that piece of because at first I was like. Fuck that white guy, that rich white guy like, oh, the only way you can get off is, like, so depraved fucking fuck you like I was like so over it.


And then I found my way to compassion. And in my compassion, I was like, oh, you really are doing a number on men in this country, like in terms of like sex and violence and like the equivocating, those two things and making it like all balled into one fucking horrible violent thing that equals like, yeah, that's abuse against women, it's abuse against other men. Like whatever happened in that guy's life, we can't begin to know.


Only he knows the truth. But there's trauma there.


Oh, you know, and like that, it always goes back to trauma. And then I and I just was like, I feel.


Like a heaviness and a sadness for. Boys and men in this country who are just given these messages that they can only be one way, because I do think that, like, we have all sort of shifted the way that we are raising.


People who identify as girls or who are girls or biologically or girls or whatever, like I think we're shifting the way that we think about that, like, oh yeah, but I do think that these things still exist. For boys that are like really difficult to overcome and then I'm like, what are we doing? We're just raising a bunch of fucking psychos, we're raising girls to to be ready to defend themselves from men, right? Yes. Raising men not to be attacking women.


And I think that's the thing. We're like, I know how to raise a feminist. You're not going to take any shit from any man. You're never going to get abuse. You're never going to let a man talk to you that way.


And then I'm going to say my strong little girl out into the world. And then you're like, well, what are you teaching your boy? Don't hit women sometimes that we're doing.


That's it, and I hate I hate the default like hate to see I've seen it in practice with you because we know your kids. We know your son's whatever. But I hate the devil. I know so many obviously know so many fucking parents now, so many women who I've had my kid, both my kids in school with their kids or I've seen their sons. And they're like, definitely it's the same fucking thing. It's the like. Well, my son knows that it's all about respect and I've just taught him it's all about respect.


And it's like, you know, we got to do better than that. You need to teach your son that, like, his emotions are important, that he needs to be able to talk about the things that he feels that like he needs to not resort to violence when he's upset, like there's all these other things that aren't just like respect women, respect women, respect women. And I feel like that chunk is getting totally missed because you see it even.


It's like. It's like. Even in schools, all that bias is just there, it's there in the mixed gender classes, like it's everywhere and it's everywhere into our culture and with my kids, like, you know, I always tried to, like, be funny about it in some ways where, like, you know, people call each other, dude, in my house. We called each other girl all the time like a girl. Now, you know, like just to be because I was like, why do we wait?


I do love that. Why don't we say dude all the time and call everyone girl, you know what I mean? Like, it's that's just what I'm going to do for, like, my jokey thing. But then also seriously, like my kids know that, like I've been sexually assaulted in the past. And that was like a fairly early conversation because to what we were talking about before, people only believe what they can see.


So I know that's hard to talk about and I know that that's a wild thing to be telling your younger child. But like, this is true about mom. And so this is why I say these things. This is why it's so important to me, not just that you like respect women, but also like get your body in between a guy that's threatening a woman and the woman, you know what I mean? Like and people say people say all the time, like, that's crazy.


You're like endangering your own sons. And I'm like, I mean, like there's danger everywhere. It's dangerous. It's a dangerous world. So, yeah, you know, we're all in danger constantly.


Constantly. I think if anybody actually thought about how much danger we're in, sometimes I do and I just be crying. I be like them. It's dangerous. And like I, I always thought about, like when I lived in New York, never want to do it again. People don't ever invite me. But when I live in New York, I will like be outside. And one time we were like walking by a park in a man and just like running shorts.


And his phone ran out of the darkness of the park because he was just running in a dark park at eleven o'clock at night.


And I'm like, what the fuck is this life?


What the fuck is this to know? I don't want to anyway, but I would love I didn't like this feminist's that I follow on the Internet poses question that, like, made men fucking furious and they were like women. If you if there were no men in the world, what would you do for a day and then fucking went ballistic? They were like, why would you say that? Women were like, I would go outside at night and look at the stars.




It wasn't that people weren't even like, I'm going to take over a Fortune 500 company. They're like, I would ride the subway alone. I would not worry about wearing headphones. I would I would get drunk with my friends, I would have three drinks instead of two if I was out. It was like the most fucking regular regular shit of all time and were like, what would you what would you say if we said, what would you do if there was no women?


And then some dude was like, you do everything, you already do the same thing.


Speaking of everything's saying, I'm seeing promising young woman yet.


No, I want to watch it. What about oh, my God, I watched it last night with my husband and I hurt your arm. I was squeezing. I was so tense. I was squeezing his arm. But maybe I shouldn't watch. It is everything that we're talking about. I mean, you know, if you saw the trailer, you you know the premise, but it's it's really, really, really well done.


I highly recommend I was in a I was in an indie movie when I was 19 years old. That was not really well done. That had thematically was along the same lines. It was about a bunch of high school girls led by my character, who were sick of men like always having the power and fucking with them so they'd get this gun that they felt like somehow got a gun. I can't remember what and then decide to like, hold these boys at gunpoint and rape them like they decide to go as it was like you guys, the late 90s were wild in terms of indie movie and true in the movies.


I auditioned for that that were like the big jets that like people were like dying to be a part of that one was huge. It was called the smokers. And it was like Domonique Zwane and me and this girl, Carolyn Pratt and Oliver Hudson. That's how I met Oliver for the first time.


And and like, I only got the part because, like, Natasha Leone fell out or some shit anyway.


And then there was like this movie that was about long before, like Jennifer's body, which I never saw, but it was about girls who had eating disorders. That and then it turns out they are just like flesh eating zombies or something. I can't remember that one also was like everybody was vying for that.


And it really was cheerleaders who were the cheerleaders who robbed the bank because their friend needs an abortion.


Oh, yeah, that's a job, right? That one. No, no. And then job I got was so fast. I love Joppa. That is like. Yeah, yeah.


Like this crazy shout out to Judy Greer. Yeah.


Maybe, but also in the nineteen nineties were wild like just wild. That's what I'm like. I don't know, like the wheels really started to come off in terms of like. Well speaking of cheerleaders, like cheerleader moms are like trying to whack another cheerleader or just I mean maybe it's like that maybe every era has its own cheerleader mom type but scandal. But the nineties were wild.


I don't know. It's funny because I do think that those things aren't existing as much, only because the Internet doesn't exist now. And so not only are like people tracked all the time, but you kind of like there's different stuff, right?


Like Internet bullying and all that fucking insanity and harmfulness. But like, I don't know. I don't think it's the same thing.


We're like people are like hiring hitmen.


You can't really cash a cheerleader, like, yeah, everything. There's nothing you leave. I think the beauty of what's been happening to the insurrectionist is that they've been like, I deleted that tweet and it's like, oh, baby, oh, honey, you can't I know you can't keep anything secret now.


You can't even be like a secret sex cannibal anymore. People are going to find out.


Yeah, you guys, I have to say, like, truly, though, that to me was shocking about the Armie Hammer stuff, which was like, bro, like, you must you must really be on drugs. Like, if you just think that's like random private Instagram account isn't being.


Yeah. Screenshot and available to anyone who like.


That's the thing that I was like, why what these are on here. Why was he doing things like I've had conversations with people like celebrity people via D.M. Before where I will one of us.


At some point I'll be like, hey, here's my phone for like and then here's my this let's switch private thing to encrypted text because I just assume that everyone can see every. Yes. Or if they wanted to they could.


I don't understand how he what was like just like literally Demming like I'm going to break your rib and barbecue.


I just think that like I feel like maybe people want to be caught. I don't know because. Oh yeah.


My therapist and I talked today about me. Oh really. Yeah. Because, you know, I'm such a bad liar and I always get my end.


And she was like, could we do you want to talk like what do you think that is? And I told the story. I think it's in my book when I tried to sell out my window when I was in high school and I had to turn the alarm off to turn the beeps off so I could open the window. And then my mom obviously, like, heard me turn the alarm off and came into my room. I was like, what are you doing?


And I was. Holding this little bag of weed like an eye, because my friend Caroline is going to come to the window and I was going to pass it off the ATM and then I was holding this bag weed and sitting on my bed and I could have just, like, kept it down by my side.


And instead I threw it across, like in my fucking pea brain. I was like, just get it as far away from me as possible. And I threw it across the room similarly. Yeah, I was like, I mean, yeah, I was talking about like when Mark caught me in this, like, huge lie several years ago and it was just like the dumbest fucking shit. I just wanted to get caught.


Yeah. Like, yeah, I wrote that I was pregnant in my diary. That didn't have a lock.




I mean like I was waiting for somebody and that was like the last entry and it was like almost half page just I am pregnant like yeah I was hoping but that's oh there it is guys rearing her ugly head again, not wanting to do the, the thing, not wanting to be the one that has to have the competition. You're hoping then you put it on someone else. Yeah.


You're hoping that someone will discover that about you and have the hard conversation with you. Oh that's a well good job to hear a therapist. She really earned her kopay.


She always earns it, except for the weeks when I've been stuck shooting. And then I still have to find more money. Yeah, it feels it feels not great.


Oh, I understand she she give up our time and man oh man.


We have a super special interview today with Glenanne Doyle, who everybody was so excited to talk to. And we really were very greedy and we talked to her for a very long time. So we should just quickly say what we're doing our best at this week. And then we can get to the great interview where we spend a long time with Glenanne. OK, Casey, go. Oh, OK.


I'm doing my best. We're trying to redo our bathroom, but like on a budget, like on a shoestring budget. And so instead of, like, retiling, we're trying to repurpose everything that's already there. And my husband is painting the tile with epoxy tile paint and it has the wildest fumes I've ever smelled in my life. And so I think that he's going to come out of that bathroom with a different personality like that is like he might be a different person from what those fumes are doing, damp.


And so I am probably so high on tile paint right now that I can't even I don't even know what I'm saying.


Well, so you're doing your best at being high on tile. I mean, I'm just trying to get through this podcast while I'm doing my best to doing the best podcast when I'm clearly like very high on tile paint fumes.


Why don't you guys open a window? We the windows are open it. It's really like I yeah I it's a lot. It's a lot. And what is it about this. I feel like my dogs are high.


So Synaptics. I want to know what's going on. OK, I will. I will. What are you doing your best at.


Well I first of all also I love EPOXI videos, I watch videos of EPOXI being laid on the Internet. So if you ever need something soothing, I do not like Asmar, but I do like to bare like a bare floor and turning it into something beautiful and marbleized. Anyway, I like best try to cook all of the stuff in my freezer. It seems pretty mundane, but we went in there and it's just like you can buy a new meat.


You don't want to start out the meat.


That's the truth. No, but I'm just going to cook the meat that I have. So that is what I've been desperately trying to do. We have been cooking, but like I went in there and then it's just like one lobster tail in there. And I was like, go fuck. So that's what I'll do it. I'm just trying to see if there's any more single lobster tails and I'm cooking. I really love that.


I was amazing. I'm doing my best at oh I'm getting a pap smear tomorrow. Oh I did it. I made the appointment.


It's hard because you never want to go now.


And I got my flu shot yesterday and yesterday, a couple of days ago while that was stupid.


So I did do the flu shot, but I forgot that I had scheduled like a lymphatic drainage massage the next day, which is like the whole point of it is to release the toxins in your body. Right. And so I have this, like, really intense lymphatic drainage massage. And then yesterday morning, I woke up and was like. Had some real intent, like I'm like taking care of my I'm doing my best, like taking care of your bad things that I put off for, like my mental health, my emotional well-being and like and also just like my physical health.


And and so I took care of some, like, stuff yesterday emotionally in the morning. And then I worked out really hard. And then I ended up walking to get Jenah, which was like over two miles. And then I had an Apple sprits and I think it was too much. And I woke up and I woke up at 4:00 in the morning with the flu like symptoms of body aches and pains. And my joints hurt really bad. So I don't know what all that means, but I'm trying trying so hard.


I'm trying. I'm just trying. I'm committed. I am committed. That's good.


You can to anything. You're doing a lot of stuff this year. And I'm on board because the worst part about I don't even know if it's going to the doctor, but just sitting down and being like, I'm going to call a doctor's office now and make an appointment, I don't know then like if I get it when people like, have their Mamadu it I remember when I was like 20 and my mom was like, you have to call the doctor.


And I was like, what? Like, it sucks to be like, all right, I'm going to call this person. I don't know and tell them I need someone to look at my vagina.


It is not the best.


And I need to get here are the other things on my list.


I need to get my thyroid ultrasound dead because I haven't done that. And I can feel I can actually feel it. It's really big. All right. I'm worried. Should I go to the person you went to, Casey or was not so long ago now? Oh, my God. He's like a hundred years old. He's retired in Colorado.


So I need to go get my thyroid checked out again. I need to get a mammogram. And like the I want to get the other thing, too, because I have very fibrous boobs.


So they say that the ultrasound is the new boob ultrasound is really good for people with fibros boobs.


So do that and the mammogram. And I got like a crazy cystic zit on my forehead over the weekend as well. Maybe that's from the vaccine.


I don't think it's like something. So I think that you are getting rid of a bunch of shit in your body and that's how it comes out.


OK, it's like and also like you're living in a very you know, you're living in a city with like a lot of pollutants in the air and stuff like that. You get it from from that.


I don't know. It feels very clean there. It's good. I have to say, you are nice.


You're nice. You're nice in New York. I'm always like, it's filthy here. I will say, you know who's filthy is Gina.


Oh, yeah. Gina gets real oily and gross.


Yeah, she gave me the hard sell. You know, my mother, she's really.


But anyway, so I am doing my best of all that stuff. I loved chatting with our guest, Glennon Doyle. We were all really excited about it. If you're one of the four people in this country who haven't bought and read Untamed Glennon's best selling book, you should probably pick it up, though. Good. You know, it's available and it's been on the bestseller list for, I think now. Forty five weeks. It's worth it.


And she had a lot of interesting things to say and we really enjoyed it. So please listen.


I've been shopping more online, obviously, in the past almost a year now because pandemic vibes and when I was starting to do my Christmas shopping, I was looking online for some gifts and cricket said, are you using honey? And I said, what? And she said, Are you using honey? Because thanks to honey, manually searching for coupon codes is a thing of the past. And I said, I'm sorry, what did you just say to me?


And she said it scours the Internet for promo codes and then applies the best one it finds in your cart. I'm not kidding you.


Word for word, verbatim. Cricket did the honey ad for me and I was like, I've never heard of honey, should I be using it? And cricket was like, yeah, honey supports over 30000 stores online.


It was like the number one commercial. I go on the YouTube thing that show that she loves very kept popping up this honey ad. Isn't that crazy. That's so funny. But thank goodness Crioulo clued you into honey. She did. So I've been using nearly thirty thousand stores.


They range from Kroger made well Ulta so much more. I used it at made well I also used it during my Christmas shopping thanks to cricket really paying attention to those ads during YouTube.


Imagine you're shopping on one of your favorite sites. That's not hard to imagine because I'm sure you were doing it like maybe you're doing it right now when you check out the honey button drops down and all you have to do is click apply coupons and then wait. You wait a few seconds and honey searches for, like the coupons online that I can find.


And then if honey finds a working coupon, those prices drop, those prices drop.


You get the deal, you get the deal, you get the deal. It's so exciting. It feels like winning something a little bit.


It always does. Because you know what? Sometimes, like, was it was it it was it you that I said about the Black Friday sales?


I was like, once you go through like a Black Friday sale, aren't you like, why is anything ever full price? Yes, exactly. And like, I'm like white. There's always this there's almost always a discount that could be given to you.




And it's hard to find them online, but that's why Honi is so incredible and why I love it and shout out to my daughter Crickett.


If you don't already have honey, you could straight up missing on free savings. It's literally free. It installs in a few seconds. And by getting it, you'll be doing yourself a solid and supporting the podcast, which is really nice. We need the credit. So get honey for free at joint honey dotcom slash busy. That's join honey. Dot com slash busy.


And a start with our sleeping, we have to go to sleep at night and when you go to sleep, you lie down on the mat, OK, I'm sorry guys. I'm really trying my best. I want to bring back the jingle, but the problem is I'm not good at it. And then I just default to singing other songs that are real songs. And then that's a copyright.


It's a legal issue. Do you ever try to write the jingles ahead of time or. I don't want to.


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I'm going to. I have to tell you, Glenn and I, because I want to tell the people, the people listening, that I've never been in the same room with you. We've never been face to face with each other. However, am I going to already cry? Shoot. Hold on.


I'll let you have sent me some of the nicest, most wonderful email letters. Diem's in moments like right when I was like, oh, my God, here it is. This thing that I need need to hear in this exact moment. And I feel very close to you in so many ways. And what's so incredible for all the people who adore you, who read your books, I think, is that you basically do that with your writing in your books and especially Untamed, which congratulations, because this is now week forty seven, eight.


Oh my gosh. Congratulations. Forty four. Yeah. I mean that's I think in reading part of the reason why it continues and just keeps building and building and building is because to me this is like 300 pages of exactly what you've gifted to me many times in the last several years, which is like I got you, we got you. We can do this. And this is something that I think especially we've all been just like waiting for that.


Waiting to hear, right? Yes. I mean, Shinta, I know. Had a had an experience. Right.


You love. Oh, yeah. I love the book. I think it's so great. Me and my partner talk about it because like you are doing the woman's work. I tell you truly, I think that you're such a wonderful writer, just like as a writer. I really appreciate the way that you use words because I be like them that just a good sentence. But I listen to it on audio book. But I went back there and I was like, let me make sure I have the things that I really I really enjoyed in there.


And one of them was like imagination, not indoctrination. And I was like, get a bitch. Yes. But one of the chapters that really hit me was the one when you said a mother has to stop being a daughter in order to be a mother, that fucked me up. And I was like, oh, my. It like really expanded the way that I saw the mothers in my family and how I saw so many how many black people I know who aren't necessarily mothers but like are treated as adults as opposed to children.


And I think that so many adult women are treated as children in the world as opposed to adults. And I was like just out here doing it. Go ahead and put that book on The New York Times list. So, like, that's one of the things that really, really struck home with me. And I, like, really appreciated it. I was like, oh, yeah, I want to ask because I just want to kick it off because forty four weeks the book came into the world, was birthed into the world.


Forty four weeks ago was a fairly different looking place.


And you feel to me like someone who was quite prolific. And when you, when you start to write you just write. Is that true.


No. Writing is really hard for me. Oh really. That makes me really miserable. Actually, I read I actually keep a quote on my desk that says writers or people for whom writing is harder than it is for everyone else. Yes, that's great. It is. And especially with stuff like Untamed, there's things that I can write easily. Untamed was not one of them. It felt like the kind of thing I've been trying to say since I was a kid and write it all into this one book.


So very intense and difficult, actually.


But how so? How long was the process for you to write the book?


Well, just the writing of it. Maybe two and a half years. Oh, wow. OK, and then editing was another year or six maybe.


Yeah, yeah. Maybe nine months of editing. Yeah. And and then like a lifetime of living through all of those things and trying to figure out what all the hell they all meant, you know. Forty four years it took you forever.


But I guess for the book to come out, you know, about a year and a half ago is that right.


March 10th is was it came out I was on the road kicking off the book tour. That's right. When that happened. Right. Right. I had to cancel the book tour. Everybody's everybody's life was like starting in March. Like everybody was like I just started a new job. I was supposed to go to Paris on March 16th. That's right. I mean, you know, our team was sitting in a hotel room. People were crying. I mean, my team is really just like my sister and my wife and my three best friends.


So it's everyone had to be preparing for this for so long.


And people were just like. Crying in the hotel room because we to shut it all down. I read it and I remember your decision making and following the journey of, like, telling everybody that the book tour was canceled and people were crushed. And I felt like in the moment I was a very early I was on covid early. Like I was like, this is going to be a big deal. And I know that you had some people that were like, why do this?


Yeah, I mean, because it was early. We canceled pretty early. Things weren't being canceled yet. You were one of the first I mean, you you canceled before Coachella, know something. African-Americans and things. So just was me. Every time I make a plan, I just immediately start reading, just hoping that someone will cancel the plan so late. And then I had friends with it's just like a game of chicken, like I'm waiting till they cancel on me and they're waiting till I cancel on them so each of us can take credit for not canceling.


So great. Let's move a little bit.


This wasn't like that though. No, really, really sad. And I remember sitting as sitting in a hotel room with Abby. There's like half of our team was like, oh, hell no, we're going this is ridiculous.


Like, it's ridiculous. No one is canceling anything. And then I was sitting with Abby and I was like, I can't cancel. This is this is the most important thing I've ever made. And she was like, because she's like always doing the right thing. I she's like Captain America the right thing, you know? And she said, well, is, is this the most important thing you've made or is the community that you've made the most important thing you've ever made because you could be risking their health by inviting them?


So that was the moment that I was like, OK, I moved very well.


That's why we should say for people listening in case they don't know about your wife. Yes. Yes. And you might know Abby from being a soccer star.


Yes. Yes. I was just literally making a face right now because I was like, who doesn't know this? Who's listening to this case? Just in case I was trying to imagine what the crossover that I mean, in my head, anyone who would follow me knows who you are.


Glenanne I don't I don't either. I don't know either. I'm just saying in my mind, that's the way it's my fault. Abby, I think that that is true in my life. I mean, if you guys knew the amount of times where I mean, it's been a little bit better since covid since we can't go anywhere but my whole life going anywhere was like someone approaching me and me, like, you know, trying to, like, get on my humble face, because here this person is clearly no recognizing me.


And then coming up to me and saying, can I get a picture and anything? Of course. And then they hand me their phone so I can be in that person. That's my girl. We reached him a couple and then realizing I should just be humble because this is happening. Yeah. I mean, that's always great advice, by the way. Yeah, always. Just let's just Ed, every situation, assuming that they want you to take the camera and take a picture of them with someone else.


Yes. Oh yeah.


That's because it's never going to be a cute look when you try to pose and they're like just me and my way, you know, what are you doing?


Well, well, obviously, the book that must have been like a pivot that you all had to make in your brain. And so how did you regroup so much of the book? You talk about the thing that like, I feel very deeply. I know very deeply. It's a thing that has really come into very sharp focus for me in recent years. But that the knowing you call it the knowing everybody, people have different ideas of what it is for me.


It's like it's like a lightning bolt. And I just know something that is the next great thing to do. So when you cancel the book tour, maybe that maybe you didn't have the knowing, but Abbey did. Thank God. And then what was the next thing in your head of like, how am I going to make sure my community is supported? How am I going to make sure this labor of love and creativity is supported? What did you where did you go?


So the great part was I was like, OK, we'll just we'll just pretend this didn't happen and then we'll just do this later. Right? We'll just. Oh, you were going to hold it. Yeah, because for sure. Well, no, I mean, without that like the whole celebration. Right. Oh right. Like before. Because you know clearly and this will all be over in like a few months. It's what I thought.


And so we are most of my life, although writing and speaking is a big deal for me, most of my life is together rise. Like most of what we do on a daily basis is our non-profit. So we knew that we were going to be just slammed out of our minds because we are basically like first responders to. Families in crisis and all covid was predicted to be like one long situation where families were in crisis. So we just kept saying, OK, we felt like we were in promotion mode and we just kept saying switch to service, switch to service.


We started working our butts off together, rising to try to help where we could. And then and then I was like, how am I going to show up for people, for my community? Because everyone was scared shitless, obviously, which was kind of you guys. I am the person who's dealt with depression, anxiety my whole life.


Hi, welcome to. Welcome to all of us. Yes, yes, yes. A young a young girl in America. Depression and anxiety ridden. Yeah, they're like linen. Every time somebody asks me what why do little girls get eating disorders? And you can see because they're paying attention, right? Yeah. You know, Abby actually noticed. She said it's weird. You just you seem calmer since Copan, like, I was the calmest one in my family and still am about the whole thing.


And it was so baffled just for a while. And I think I figured it out because I've been seeing my whole life. I've been Chicken Little my whole life. Yeah, my whole life I've been going, oh, this is going to get bad. Yes, you are paying attention because the shit is bad and it's and everybody is like one medicine and then like maybe you're just not paying attention. And then this guy really did fall and you're like, how are you?


Like, yeah, yeah. So I felt like I had been developing all along the skills of being scared all the time and still figuring out how to show up and like do your work and help each other and comfort each other, which makes people like me and you guys like really helpful in times like this. So I started doing these morning meetings, which, by the way, was something that I used to do with my third graders. I used to teach elementary school.


I still feel like I'm an elementary school teacher who's just done this weird hiatus. But my favorite time of the day with third graders was when we sat down in the beginning of the day and didn't do any school stuff. We just talked about like being human and how hard it is to be a kid and what was going on at home. And we had this little song that Gwen, it's morning meeting time. It's morning meeting time. So for some reason, I started doing morning meetings with my community online and then the morning meeting started taking off like crazy.


And then he took off from the morning meetings. That's what that's what my whole team thinks, because none of us know how the hell this happened.


As somebody who watched it from the outside, I think that also the book is the exact right book for this exact right moment. Right forever. Yeah. In so many different ways, don't you think? But those morning meetings were really special, especially in the beginning where people were like, what are we like? What are we doing? I can't fucking homeschool my kid. And but there's so much laundry and I feel like it was just like a very calming, safe place and then a way to, like, refocus.


And we had everything taken away, all our people and all just you don't realize how much how meaningful it is to just nod to someone in public and say, hey, or talk to someone in line at the store. And I remember that last shopping trip before everything shut down. And I remember thinking to myself, like, this is going to be the last time I'm doing this for a long time. And some guy in front of me was like, I forgot frozen pizzas.


I'm going to run and get frozen pizzas. And he turned around and said, Do you want frozen pizzas? And I was like, Yeah, get me two frozen pizza. I know this is going to be the last time that I'm having, like, just a little chit chat in a grocery store line with somebody for a long time, a weird interaction with a stranger that you'll never probably see again. Yeah. And so you were giving people like a water cooler or like a town square to come in that moment when we all thought that it was it had evaporated forever.


I really think one of the things, too, is that we all got to sit quietly, like in our bodies, but like in our houses, usually I have to go to work. I have to go to the gym. I have to go to the store. I have to do the kids up at school, not me. I'm talking about other people, but everybody has something to do that can distract them from whatever's going on in, like inside of them.


And I think that the two hours that you used to get you used to get ready in the morning are now used to sit with yourself. And I think that that's one of the reasons, obviously, social justice books took off, but also a really good reason why Untamed took off, because people were sitting with themselves in a new way and being like, I do not think that this works for me. Yeah, I think. And then your book was like, listen to your body.


You're right. You're like, oh my God, those two hours in the morning that I've been ignoring my heart, my mind. Also, full disclosure, I do think there is. Like safeness in even just the way your book looks like, if you're like the lady at home and you like pull out Malcolm X, your family might be like, what the fuck is going on with you? And then if you're like, I'm really glad. And it's like I always say, put the pill in the cheese.


It's like a sneaky way to take care of yourself without being aggravated by, like, people who might be like, why are you reading Bell Hooks right now? Like, that's a really interesting question, Glenn, that I wanted to ask you. Can you see and I had so many conversations. And then in the busy tonight writer's room, we talked about how to be subversive in our activism and in getting across messages that, you know, maybe people that wouldn't wouldn't maybe be open to yet.


And storytelling was like the only way you can, like, change people. And so I guess I'm curious how much of what she a. saying specifically about the book, like the cover and like how much of it did you think? Like, let's make this a little bit like approachable for people who are like, I'm not going to read a feminist manifesto, a book about becoming, you know, an activist. I'm not buying my wife for Christmas.


The book that makes her leave me you ever is basically it's just interesting book stores. Don't let your wife read it.


Well. Oh, yes, that's why all this complicated feelings about that issue, because for the last five years, I mean, the articles have been written about me that I'm a Trojan horse. Like I come in looking one way and then say other things. I think that's what they mean. But the more I think about it and more pissed off it makes me, because what I think they're saying is that you look like I think it's a little bit of misogyny in that.


Yeah, 100 percent for sure. But like, you look like you should be stupid. Yeah, that's exactly what they're saying. Yeah. You know, so it's not a Trojan horse. It's like you're just a misogynist. You're just shocked that I could have a cover behind me picking it and then I could be full of like really good ideas that anybody who should be taken seriously should look a certain way. It's what I love about you so much because it's like, thanks, you're your absolute refusal to to not to hold onto whatever you consider, like your look, your your presentation to the world and also be brilliant and badass and like not compromise any of it.


I guess for me personally, I have seen the thing that has been like put on me forever, which is like, you know, at the dinner party where, you know, the business man who has like too many degrees from Harvard suddenly looks over and then like really looks at you because you've said something really smart and. Yes, exactly. You know, Glenanne because you've been at that table. Exactly. You know, I guess I've used that as part of my superpower in the last five, 10 years.


And part of what I what I want is I want to dismantle the patriarchy and white supremacy, obviously. But I want to get these women who are are just trapped in these cages, out of these fucking cages and at least a little bit. And I'm just going to tell you, they're not going to do it by picking up a book off the shelf that they're not looking at that I wrote, you'd be completely honest. Totally. So I just feel like I don't know, like for me, it's not about being a Trojan horse.


I mean, that's like being perpetrated on us by other people. But for me, in order to, like, get in there with I mean, look, we can look at the statistics.


We know what the white the white women, the still voted for Trump. What's happening?


People like a whole nother thing. And I am just just on my thoughts about that are not yet formed, right? Yeah. Yeah. But I will tell you that if it's busy. But when I saw those first exit polls among black women, I was seriously like I have personally felt like, yeah, this was my fucking job to get out. And then I started thinking about it more and more.


And I'm like, we like the more we look at like the Stacey Abrams and the little hash browns and like all, you know, all these activists in Georgia and all those people that might do even fucking need to keep trying to woo them over like you're going to do what they're going to do. Or is it just to get a few more white assholes, supremacists to, like, join us, or is it just to continue to let them die out and like continue to like, you know, get voters who are disenfranchised and who are who are suppressed to the polls because there's more of them anyway than.


Yeah, I have very strong feelings about this. I, I look at it like when we talk about, you know, when women come forward to tell their stories and sometimes it takes one brave woman to say, this happened to me. And then next thing you know, it's it's a tsunami of women saying this also happened to me. I kind of feel the same about politics. I'm probably not going to convince somebody whose ideology is so different from me.


But what I can do is keep saying who I am without letting my voice shake. Because you remember, in 2016, like people were women were pushed underground. You couldn't say anything without getting swarmed by, you know, people on the other side and people on our side about like, you know, I'm very excited that we're going to possibly have our first woman president. You couldn't say anything. And so people joined all these secret groups, you know, where they could talk behind closed doors about these things.


And I think that was detrimental, so I think that in that same way that when a woman comes forward and says something, then there's strength in numbers. So I think while I probably won't convince anyone having like a tit for tat argument with someone who believes something very differently than I do, I bet you there's a thousand women who are like me around me who are just waiting for me to say this is what I think. And then they'll be like, I think that, too.


I think that, like, I'm really, like, truly excited to talk about this, because after I found out about the second impeachment, I was like, I really want to talk to Clinton, because in your book, you say you're like this book. Is it out yet in the race section? Oh, you're like, why did you bring this up? Yeah. You know, like this. Yeah, the book isn't out yet, so I don't know if I'm going to be like them after this came out.


I don't think there's any way anymore. So like to go back to what you were saying about Stacey Abrams. Stacey Abrams isn't working for white people. Stacey Abrams is working to help stop the suppression of black people. And it's white people's job to help white people. And then I also talk to my partner about this last night when because I also was like, you know, like, fuck them, fuck them Nazis, fuck all of them. Right.


And we really had a discussion about addressing what you were saying. It's like leaving the behind when you reach back to get those women, to get those people who are still left in those communities kind of feeling all alone, even if you reach one of them. It's very important because white women are like 90 percent of teachers like they like are responsible for little brown kids. And they grow up to be white women who are respected in their communities. And I think that, like the fact of the matter is, Stacy is too busy to go back and talk to them.


And also they're not going to talk to her anyway. I mean, like, I'm upset with white women. I can't imagine being a white woman to be like, I'm trying, you know, so I think it's a bummer. It's like when you have an embarrassing family member where you're constantly, like, apologizing and you're like, I'm so sorry about how it feels. I'm sorry if people are listening this and you've said this a million times on another podcast.


But I want to ask you write in your book, you say, like no family recovers until each member recovers. Right. And I'm thinking about that as like American, like America as a family right now. There are people in this country who will not recover during our lifetime. Right. So with that idea, especially what's going on right now, how do you think how do you think you might or how do you think we could proceed further into wherever we're going, this experiment, if we go in fully knowing that we will not be able to recover everyone?


You know, all I know is that I think the reason I wrote that chapter that we actually really do believe that shit. Like I definitely believe that I've seen it so much in my life in recovery. I've seen it so much in in the lives of families that I've worked with, with alcoholism and with addiction and with sickness. I mean, I think that you guys are right at the reason that the UN team did so well in this moment is because of the stop in it's because of the what Shintaro was saying about, you know, that metaphor in the book about how we're all snow globes and covid was kind of a force settling in with snow globes.


I mean, the divorce rate is sky high, baby, live in our living. They got to be with themselves and they're leaving because it's so easy for us to ignore the thing at the center of the snow globe when we're so busy. When we were keeping the snow, you know, shaken up with all the things we use, the food, the boost, the shopping, it's not the busyness, the work that whatever. And it was before settling in.


That's why people are dealing with their shit for the first time that people are dealing with, like, oh, God, okay. Maybe the six glasses of wine a night actually isn't like my best life. Maybe like I need to end that relationship maybe. And in their families, in their relationships, they can't ignore that the thing at the center anymore. And I think that I think that's what happened with our nation. Yeah. Because we all went OK because of George, but because the police brutality, another that was new.


No, not one had to sit with it. They had to sit back and look at it. We had to look at it. Oh yeah, dad, let me sit and stare at it. And we had to think we had to feel it. We had to like there was no where to run from it. So, I mean, I guess if there's hope and like what I have seen in lives and families and communities and in nations right there is that there is hope for justice.


Only after everybody acknowledges what the hell happened. Right, right, right, yeah.


Well, the whole idea of like, there's never, ever been any sort of revolution without a huge, like, revelation. Yeah, right. So and that's the same chattery talking about families like is this is this revelation of who America is. It's always been strong enough to get us out of denial. Yeah. We'll have to wait to see. What I know for sure is that everybody calling for unity is not the right answer. Well, what the hell?


Like what? When have we ever. Can you imagine being in a family? Let's go back to the family. Mm hmm. And there's one person who's being a total freaking lunatic jackass, kicking everyone's asses, doing everything wrong, breaking windows. And we're all like, just get over it.


No, the person has to acknowledge what they've done, apologized, changed their behavior. And then we call our family unity. Right.


I've been thinking about it like an addiction metaphor a lot, because that's you know, that's been my experience. Like growing up in addictions, been a huge thing in my life. Nobody ever helped someone stop being addicted to something by saying, you know what, let's meet halfway on this. You can be a little bit addicted to this and you're you'll never get better. So I feel like we've been seeing a lot of people hitting their rock bottoms of like where, you know, a lot of us for and for better and for worse.


And so I'm curious if you think that will change anything for some people.


Well, I know there's no meat in the middle. I know it's not like, OK, I see you're a white supremacist. And so let's just meet in the middle with something like a little bit supremacist and like, you bring your stuff and then like like that's how you hate me and then we'll figure it out. Oh, I agree. We're not going to work. And you're like, this is you know, we I live in a very strangely, very strangely conservative town.


It's I live in Naples, Florida.


I know. I know. So I'm so shocked that you live there and that I understood why you do. But that is that does seem wild. I'm from Tallahassee, Florida. And then when I found out you were from Naples, I was like, all right, you're working hard down there sometimes. Like, you stay there and you do the work. And if I want to stay in Tallahassee, I could have done a lot of work. But like, sometimes you got to leave.


I'm not sure while you're leaving, but sometimes the work becomes too big for where you are. So like, when I found that you're in Naples, I was like you doing a lot of work for sure.


And like, it's too big. And your kids, I mean, I we're in a I married, we have a kid. He's gay. There's just this jaspar came to us, to me one day to this place does not love us know.


And I was like this for my kid to say that to you. Like there's so many parts and untamed talks like these doors aren't even locked. Like I can leave this religion, I can leave this marriage, I can. And then I finally was like, we can choose to leave the city. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's what I mean, I that's the pivot I just made. And it was also of mine was not my kids telling me with their words, but I just had, I had that thing where I dropped in and I was like, oh this this is toxic for our kids and for me personally.


And if we stay here, it's bad. We got to get the fuck out right now. And we, like, left 48 hours later.


Well, I think too busy and and and going in, I think about what you were talking about kind of to go back and piggyback off of, like how you've always been anxious. I feel like we've all kind of had an anxiety. You talk about it in the book too. But like being the canary, I feel like empathic, empathic people are the canaries for society. They blow up, they like blow the whistle. They tell everyone how bad we're getting.


And when we are out in the world alone being like, hey, this is really bad. Everyone tells us to push it back down inside of us. And now everyone has met up to the anxiety to which we live in constantly. And I think that's one of the reasons you're thriving, Glenn, is because everyone has finally met up to where all the impacts have been screaming. And so many impacts also are addicts because they are like, I'm so sad about the world.


Why isn't anyone listening? I will drink about this. And now the entire world is sad and we get the crack our knuckles and be like, welcome. I'm going to show you exactly how to fucking live for you. We've been waiting for you to see everything that we. I feel like people get to feel their feelings now because it's like the first time everybody gets to be as fully empathic, as fully emotional, as fully in their feelings, as human, as fully human as as ever, I think.


So that's what I think. I think people are finally catching up to the impact. And so many impacts are really finding their way because everyone's catching up and they get to be like, you know what, you cry about that. I cried about this in the third grade. And it's not just about feelings.


Yeah. Truth, right? Absolutely. Like the relief. It's not just like, oh, you're sad. Welcome. It's like the relief of people seeing and knowing the things that we're talking about, things that are true. Finally, it reminds me of the first time that I went to recovery meeting and I was like, oh, this is where they keep the honest people. That's how it suddenly feels like the jig is up. You know, or I spent some time in a mental hospital, my senior year in high school.


And and it was such a relief to be in there because it was like nobody was acting like it would have been ridiculous if you were in there to be like I was. I mean, everything's great because you're there right now. Right. I think the thing with social justice right now is that so many people who get it, they want to call us like work. So WOAK social justice warriors or whatever. So many black people, so many queer people, so many people who have been like, you know, the police be fucking with us, like the government is not taking care of us.


One of the things just in California alone, the unemployment like in 2011, they found like 84 percent of the phone calls to unemployment were not being answered at all. Like nobody was answering the phone at unemployment in 2011, the pandemic happened the same thing. Nobody's answering the phone. But now there's architects and lawyers and people with Teslas who need to get somebody on the phone. So all of a sudden, it's almost like, you know, we always talk about the stars aligning in like a wonderful way, like the stars aligned for this wonderful thing to happen.


We're seeing horrible stars align because it just so happened that very recently there were social justice protests at the Capitol. And it's recent enough that we who forget everything, remember it vividly because it was like two weeks ago. And then there was this uprising at the capital. And we remember the way people were treated just a few weeks ago. And so it's like this these horrible stars are aligning where like really people who whose eyes were closed were suddenly like, well, it would be hard to deny that.


And they're still doing it. Yeah, was hard, but not impossible through hard times. Yeah. But I wonder because one of the things like as somebody who's super, all four of us right here are very crying all the time.


Yeah. We're just I think we're really empathetic people.


I think we feel things deeply. And I think we see we see the truth of the thing. And I think that that not to gender is a treat. But I do think that that is like sort of a more historically feminine quality of.


Yeah. Of having that ability to do that. Because also I was very glad in your book that you address this idea of like, oh, no, the boys I never told there's a there's a problem with boys. Yeah.


How women is allow women in this country to write because you said ability and that's the right word or permission. We are mission to be that. Yeah, probably as many men have the possibility of inherently being. And there's no way that that's gendered because nothing is really inherently know. Yeah. A construct to express that part. I mean, what kind of boy in this freakin culture where we teach boys that all they're allowed to be and and claim their worthiness is angry like that, that's the only that's the only emotion they're allowed to show.


What little boy is going to feel permission to be an empath? Right. The third grade teacher. And I know how boys who show any sort of mercy or compassion or uncertainty even get shamed from other kids. So I just I think it's sad every time I think about men, which is not very often on science, same same job anymore. It's like it must be.


So it's so weird to me to to consider that men are fully human as women. Like, it sounds terrible.


Like that's kind of wild and also. Yes, like, oh my God, they have to be right when you think logically, like they have to be as fully human as women and they have so little permission. From our culture to explore any of it, to express any of it, to like that, I in that way I feel like men are caged way more severely than women are at this point. I wouldn't trade places with an infant for anything.


I wouldn't either, for sure. I did do a couple hours. We always talk about little kids not having the language. And I feel that way about men. You know, obviously I'm married to a man. I'm a mother to two young men. I have a lot of men who are friends and I do I see a lot of anger. And I'm like, what is like, why are you angry about this, though? And it turns out that, yeah, that's just the label that they're slapping on every emotion that they're feeling.


And my husband and I talk about this, too, like there's no there's not even any regulation about the anger. Like, you know, I'm like, you're just as angry that you dropped a pencil as you are about like an injustice in the world. You know, that's like but I. I do feel bad because they I feel like a lot of men just don't have the language. And it's exactly what you're saying, Glenn. And there's they don't they never got permission to learn the language.


I don't know how bad I feel about men. That's just where I'm at. I don't know how bad I feel about them, because if they wanted to, they're in charge of everything, they could feel it. I think one of the things for me is that women don't get to be mad and we need that. I think both of us are lacking in things that would help us be more fully human, because when women get to experience their righteous anger, they fully become themselves.


And there's nothing more powerful than a woman who is fully themselves. So men get to have the emotion that let them have power. And I think that's why I do not feel bad for them, because being mad, they could be sad alone on a run in the middle of the night because nobody's going to, you know what I mean? Then we don't get they don't get to express those emotions to us. Those emotions do not create power, I think, in men.


But for women, the emotion that we are not allowed to express openly is the one that is associated with power.


But I just feel like my whole thing in the last several years specifically about this is that Blake and obviously, guys, I went to two years of Loyola Marymount University. I took one gender studies class at Santa Monica Community College when I was in between jobs, like when I was like twenty three. That's the last time I was in a classroom. And I've read fucking books, but I don't know anything. This is just what I think. I do think that, like, the first thing that we were sold about gender equality and parity was a bunch of fucking bullshit because it was just hide every aspect and treat that you feel that comes across naturally to you, i.e. your feminine characteristics.


And if you want to succeed in this world, bend yourself to be like these this other gender. And what we've tried to do for thirty fucking plus years is act like men in the workplace and take it when they would, you know, be one of the boys and be able to go to the strip clubs and be able to be fucking degraded and be a man about it or whatever. And it did none of us any fucking service and fucked us all up.


And everyone in the 90s got raped. I'm sorry to, like, even say it like that, but it's just fucking true. Like, I feel like where we have to go now is to invite those boys and now all these men over to a different way of doing things like the feminine, softer, like drop into your feelings, like see things be empathetic because empathy can be taught. I also don't think that inviting it to the feminine, I think we're also still gendering.


Right. So we're inviting them. OK, right. Right, right. Yeah. Say it. But you said yeah. What if we stopped using gendered words completely? What if we got to the root of it. OK, why our country. So many. But let's just focus here. We are based completely on a very few people keeping power. Well, nobody else has any. Yeah.


How do you maintain that sort of inequality, that unbelievable kind of injustice is that you cannot in any way allow curiosity, mercy, compassion and empathy. You cannot allow those things into that system, OK? The way that you do not allow those things into this kind of system in a. Agonistic system is to label and continuously over time define those characteristics as they may be completely shame them of, and then we can dismiss them and women. Right.


We could sort of look at it as like and I'm probably not the first person to say this. I'm going to say it like I thought of, like, the most genius thing. But we we should look at it as like an emotional spectrum that we're all born with, where on one side is like whatever you want to say, gentleness, compassion, happiness, contentment. On the other end is hatred, anger, thirst, lust for power. And so I think what you're saying busy is to invite people, all people from.


Right. Who are at that extreme end or, you know, three quarters of the way down that spectrum to come closer to the center, because you also probably don't want to be all the way at the other end of the spectrum where you're just like a beating heart. Well, I couldn't be because, you know, I have I have a really hard edge. Well, there is space. I think there is space for that. I think that that is where I don't know if we'll see it in our lifetime, because those people who were completely raw beating hearts were they used to be given a space in their society.


They used to be given a space in me. And my partner talked about I don't even remember what it was like a tribe.


And they had like in the sun, never. But they had they had a shaman and like some fucking colonizers came to their shore. And the only the only person in their tribe who could see the ships was the shaman because they only could see what they knew. And the shaman was someone that was beyond the confines of whatever we put on people. And they were able to see what they did not know. And they were like, we all see them ships.


And everybody was like, we can't see what we don't know. We can't see what is beyond us. And I think that we're slowly trying to move towards everybody being able to see the ship. During last summer, George Floyd, people finally saw ships for the first time and it wasn't just empath. So I really think that we are obviously moving out of gendering people, but like one step at a time, I guess we're slowly stopping the gender people.


Now we can move into our language, into what we do with our bodies, into movies we watch are just movies as opposed to men's movies or whatever. So. Right. That makes sense.


Right. And in the way that I'm trying to talk about it, I'm trying to talk about, like, the idea from the 70s. I mean, there's a reason why plans I mean, plan abortion. First of all, I'm so fucking glad you talk about how evangelicals took up Roe v Wade as because I talk about it all the time and people are like, what are you talking about? My Sarabeth, who lives with us, whose was raised in an evangelical Christian household, I was like baby girl, like evangelical Christians and even give a fuck about abortion until Jerry Falwell saw that he could get his racist ass agendas through and segregation and keep segregation, if they like, focused in on that issue and motivated the Christians.


And she's like, that's not true. That's just I. And she's like and she's like so like she's so she's obviously she's she's like out of it and like pro-choice and all of this stuff. And she's like, no, I think they were always very, very anti-abortion.


I was like, no, they're just really they're really good at PR, what the fuck they are. I'm so glad you wrote that in your book, because I think that's a really, really important piece of history that is getting smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller. So we talk about like these traditional gender roles, ideas, traits, character traits, whatever part of the thing that, like, is so fucking wild and amazing to me about Bertie's preferred pronouns is that I have a new understanding about pronouns and and dismantling everything.


You know, the binary just from watching my own child, somebody posted a thing and it was like trying to be a very nice post. And they're like, busy son Bertie.


And I was like, no, not my son, not my son, but bless you lessons or try so hard for trying.


But like, I want I want to be able to have these conversations with Gen X people on how we can start to shift everything and our thinking. And I guess that, yeah, I defer to like what our society has up until this point, like labeled as gendered traits. But I also want people to know. What the fuck I'm talking about, do you know what I mean? So then how do you do that? How do you do that help?


I don't know. I mean, one of the funniest things that I find about ancient I don't know if you find this, too, but we all the time I mean, I will be out doing things and we still like we'll be in a restaurant and people will turn to her and give her the bill. People will call. Yeah.


What? How many sex women. Oh yeah. It's still it's still like. Oh one looks like the boy so we'll treat that one like the boy or it's so ingrained. It's so ingrained. I don't know. I mean I just remember, you know, as a teacher, just like the goal, which is what Casey was saying, it's just really getting people to believe and understand that there are no characteristics of human beings that are gender. Right.


There's only permission to express certain characteristics that are gendered. So you're allowed if you're in to express anger, you're not allowed if you're a little girl to express anger. Right.


You're very unbecoming of a young lady. And, of course, people demand change. So, yeah, every single marginalized group is going to be staying out of their anger and also, yes, letting people do gender. Me and my girlfriend, she told me that when we're out, people treat her better when we're together because they treat me like a man so they do not shoot. No one hits on her when we go on a walk. Even if we're not even if we go on walks sometimes.


And she'll be like, when I go outside by myself, men talk to me. And when I go outside with you, men compliment you on your sneakers and then they keep it moving. So I interesting there is that as I can't I don't know how to put my finger on the words, but there's an immediate respect that we get from men when Abbi's around.


Yes. They respect whatever the the masculinity. I do dress more masculine of center to to gender it. And when being my partner are together, men will be like cool shorts bro, love those sneakers. And then she'll go outside and she'd be like, I went to the mailbox and a man honked his horn at me and she's like, when she was we were walking together every day for weeks. And then one day I was like, I have a lot of work to do.


I'm not going on the walk. She was like, I went out in the walk to walk as if I was with you. And I had to be reminded immediately that I was by myself truly. So even even if I'm not a man, I had enough masculinity to gain respect from men. And people who I've been presenting do not realize that, but it is very interesting. Well, so it's interesting because it brings it right back to a business saying that there was a time when we were told to just man up for, you know, to to like that with it.


Yeah. That if we wanted to succeed in business, if we wanted to play with the big boys, you had to put your big fucking boy pants on and you had to be one of them. I just think that's bullshit.


I still think it is. But it's really interesting that Shinjiro and Glenanne are both saying that it's like something that's going on in their everyday lives. Still, it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. It's wild. It's wild. I also think that what you said busy to like if you do all that stuff, you do all the man stuff, put your big boy pants on and you get into that space. Now that you're in there, you cannot become them.


You have to. I feel like a lot of women get into like male dominated spaces and they're like, now I'm going to be a motherfucker. And it's like, wait, no, you tricked them. Yeah. Now now you bring other women in and treat them well. Are you change the the dynamics of the room. And I think that that's the thing that people left out when they were like, if you're going to do that, pulla, okeydoke.


Fuck and get in there and then be like, I lied. I'm actually a very nice lady and I'm going to do nice lady things. So that's where we need a Trojan horse.


Yeah, but I might add he talks about that a lot because she was able to get in a lot of those rooms, not only because of her achievements in sports world, but because she was so masculine presenting because the bad guys would talk to and she talks about like what you're seeing being in those rooms and regretting feeling just grateful to be there. Yeah. Sitting, you know, molding to that instead of blowing that up. Right.


But also to think about S.A., the fuckin people, the articles that were written and the shit that was said to me when I was like, yeah, this is fucking bullshit that they canceled my show, that I was outspoken about how how much it sucked and how bad and mediocre that man in charge who got fired like two months later. Anyway, it was like when I sent him that fuckin text message saying no. Too bad, do better, like you should be better at your job, like people were literally writing articles like Poor Little Crybaby Loser and it's like if I was a fucking man this I mean, I would be like what I do.


I wasn't fucking grateful. I wasn't. I'm not. I deserve it. Like, I deserve to bore, you know what I mean?


Infuriating how everything is gender. Get along the same along the same lines with the amount of times that I do interviews and people are like, so what do you mean you don't talk about? Or people will call me a confessional. And we wish I were a man. I would just be called a writer. Yeah. Even calling it confessional suggests that there's something like dirty or secret. And I'm just I'm you know, men do it. It's called literature.


When when women do it, it's what I'm writing about, things that women care about. When I'm writing about them, it's like Puffy or like the the the tell all the dallal.


You're to tell them. Oh, that's what I did, too. Sure. Is David Carr confessional? Is David Foster Wallace confessional about to say? Is David Foster Wallace confessional now? Or like there was this huge article that came out in 1960 that was like good and does writing a third memoir like why?


And it's like David Sedaris has written 16 books, not going away. He's never going to say, Oh, how dare you?


And it really is a power thing for sure, because no one cares if you write. And obviously I love road romance novels like no one cares if you write thirty eight romance novels. They do not feel like that is going to affect women in a way that gives them more power to disrupt the power structure. Right. It's a way of telling a woman that her life is small. David Sedaris is a really good example. He he writes about such narrow slices of his life.


He writes about these just a small year when he worked at Macy's Santa Land. And that's like a massively popular book. And that's just, you know, that's just one Christmas probably. I don't know. I don't quite remember the body shop in the mall one day. So, you know, so you know what I'm saying. It's a way of telling women, like, your life is too small to be worth this.


It's like chick lit. Yeah. Yes. Male version. What's the male version? Just let do you know how hard it is. It's so easy for men to get stuff. I'm always just like the mediocrity is overwhelming. So just like the mediocrity is overwhelming. But I truly am. But like you getting a third book, you getting one book is fucking hard, right. So if you got three, it's the same thing, obviously, like we say about black people, but it really does work for women.


You have to be twice as good to get half as much. Right. And that's saying that those other people are not good, but you do not get to be mediocre and get one book right now. You don't get it. And if you failed, you would not get another one. Right. So for you to get three, that means that you really fucking had to do it right. Or you could be a man. You can write about Christmas and get six, and that takes nothing away from his talent.


But I think one of the things, too, that has been really earth shattering for people during this time is that when men or women, people with privilege or people who are really wrapped up in white supremacy when they realize that what they got was not necessarily because they were the best, it was because they were they have an opportunity to do it where other people have to be the best to get the opportunity to do it. And if you let go of that and really recognize your reality, your entire fucking world crashes and then you have to do some work and gendering it.


I am. But like a lot of women are willing to do the work after they find out the truth and a lot of men will go and blow up something when they find out the truth, like the Capitol building.


That takes us back, though, that just gets back to like the issue where you're talking about how do we begin to?


Because the reason why so few white women, I think, are willing to open up to the idea that they could be wrong about everything. Night is because it's terrifying, because it's like one of those Jenga games where you're. But if I consider that a lot like the whole thing will crumble. Everything I've been told. I know that because of religion. Yeah. How many Christian people cannot even consider that little like, oh, my God, if I can.


Are dinosaurs actually existed in the whole fucking thing falls apart, right, like it's it's it's very scary to consider deconstructing the whole damn thing, which is what we're asking people to do when we ask them to turn away from that set of beliefs. And so we we are angry and we are like, how can they not see it and how can they not? And it really is at the end of the day, going to have to be a gentler approach.


Probably. I'm not there yet. I don't know. Yeah, that's not my know your role. And I'm not I'm not a gentle bitch. I'm not gentle enough to do well. It also goes back to what you were saying earlier, Glenanne, about the snow globe, about how we're all just busying ourselves with so many things that we can't see the truth right in front of us. And so I think that people are probably, you know, busying themselves with a lot of ideas that are distracting from the truth because it's uncomfortable, like the whole thing will come crashing down.


And I think a lot of us, you know, without gendering it because of the way that our society is structured, patriarchal society, we defer to a lot of people sometimes to be the authority on something. And it's because I don't know why we we're uncomfortable examining why we're not the authority on it. You have to give yourself the authority to become the authority on things that you think is part to me is like it's not the people.


So I'm trying to say this. It's like the people, the climate change deniers. OK, right. Yeah. There's all the people who actually don't believe that climate change is a thing. But then there's the people at the top who taught them that they do believe in climate change. Absolutely. OK, they this is like the same thing with the evangelicals.


Like there's all these people who live and die by abortion and gayness. There's the people at the top who taught them that they don't believe that shit. Now, there's no first thing that they just knew was politically, politically strategic to get them all to believe it. So you have this very difficult situation where you're creating huge masses of true believers and the people at the top who taught them all that they're just doing it to like get their own TV needs met because the people are teaching all of them not to believe in climate change so they can stay in bed with oil manufacturers.


This is my this is my question, Glenn. And this is like maybe too big for any of us, because this is the thing that I have, like in the last several well, I don't even know how long, but really recently especially, I've just been like, what money? It's for some money guys. Really? That's it. It's crazy to me that this is all motivated by some people getting some money. And look, your girl likes a fuckin nice dress, you know what I mean?


I enjoy it. I like shopping. But I also would be like, totally fine if I never bought another nice dress if, like, I knew that everybody that I loved was and everybody that I loved in my neighborhood and everybody that I see when I walk down the street was like well-fed and taken care of. And like that the world wasn't burning. Do you know what I mean? I would give up everything like I would. I really would.


I really fucking would if that could be the way that the world changed. But what the fuck? These guys are just like trading on lives for it seems like a game of Monopoly. And I just I really can't wrap my head around what they think, how they live with themselves, how these how they're mostly men, although there are some just fucking horrible women.


But I know that the divorce is a very bad woman. Nothing, nothing worse. J.A. taught me nothing trickier than a tricky white lady. But how do they live with, like, literally how do you think they live? How do they live with themselves? How do they justify this?


It's like when the whole thing started to believe women and I was like, that's not the thing. They believe women. Everybody knows everybody knows that Christine bodyboard is telling the truth. They just don't give a fuck. Yeah, they don't care. Subscene believe in climate change. They believe they just care more about the money. Right.


Like, so what are they getting? This is what I mean. But like, I guess just truly what are they getting houses. Because you said it.


It's a game. It is you game because and also, you know, this is something that I feel like you and I deeply connect on to, which is that people I do interviews all the time and people are like you share everything about your life, you share every moment and thing.


I'm like, what do you who hum. How do you OK, how would you know? How would you how are you there. Are you in my. Anyway, I was I had a situation in my life that I can't share, but in it this man said, you know, this this man was acting a certain way toward me. And honestly, my gut feeling was that he just felt like he was wasn't getting a good deal, that he just he wasn't getting a good enough deal for him.


You know, and that reminds me, when you say that word, when you say this, that phrase, he just felt like he wasn't getting a good enough deal.


I just immediately think of all of those men and women who were storming the Capitol.


It's like there's something about that at the heart of white supremacy. That's like I was I was sold. This American dream in my life isn't what I was told it would be. That's right. And there has to be somebody to blame for that.


And instead of putting the blame on the people in Pecola, where it should be, those very same people in power, I know how to deflect that blame beautifully.


And so what they do so that they don't get the ire of people who feel like they haven't done a good enough deal is that they blame it on everybody else. Right.


And manipulate people to to sort of do this bidding. That is part of their game. That's part of to help them win their game. And, you know, and then the difference between those people storming the Capitol and people who weren't storming the Capitol is how we view what is getting a good deal. Like when if I ask you, Glenanne, what do you think is getting a good deal in life? I'm sure you would say, like, I think if I have somewhere to live that's safe and I have, you know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs.


Right? If I have food, if I have shelter, if I have love, if I have companionship. But I bet also part of getting a good deal for any one of us is also thinking, is my deal hurting anyone else's deal? Like if I'm getting food and shelter and clothing and love, is it taking it away from anyone else? And if we thought that it was, we would pull back from it. Whereas there are some people who are asking themselves, it is my deal taking away anything from anyone else, if so good.


That's how I like it.


And so and so. Yes. But I also feel like one of the things that is interesting for white women, right. Is like I just think it's a little bit too comfortable, especially for me to be like, well, I mean, I would I have these nice things. And it's not like my things are hurting anyone else, but like when I actually think about what it means to be a white woman in the world, it feels like part of the pain of awakening to all of this.


And why so few people want to do it is that you just come to the realization that you actually like white women. We do make a deal with the devil. We did. We did like we at some point we realized that our proximity to power like that our proximity to white men was going to cost of something.


Right. And what the cost of that, we said, OK, we will accept this proximity to power. And in return for that, we will first of all, we will never ask for any real power and we will look the other way for the rest of our lives. Like, for example, we will accept the protection and the comfort of the police presence in our presence in our lives. And and in exchange for that, we will never look over there and ask any questions about what police in those communities are doing.


Right. We will go into every school that our kids are part of and demand that every child in our school has nine iPads. And we will never look down the street and ask why that school doesn't have clean drinking water. Right.


So the problem is that there is a complicity that white women have that does cost other people something.


Yes, well, I would say because this is also something from your book that I wanted to bring up, I think that your and it was specifically talking about together rising, which is that like if you are in philanthropy, volunteering, donating long enough and you're curious person, ultimately you get to activism.


You have to, you have to or you become completely complicit with or you are complicit with power, I don't know. I think that that is like a really, really important key, that previously philanthropy was just philanthropy. And and was that thing of like keeping people.


Pulling people out of the river plate and and and keeping the people in power who are in power and not asking right and not asking why they're you know, when you're at your huge gala fundraiser every year, not asking, like, wait, what is that guy who owns that company? What is his responsibility in this river situation? Right.


You don't want to put yourself out of business as a philanthropist. You wouldn't be able to pat yourself on the back anymore for going to the gala. Certainly could not. Yeah.


If you started to examine why the river is unsafe and unpatrolled and and why there are people upstream, the quote is you can only pull people out of the river for so long until you have to look upriver and find out who's pushing the net.


Yes, right. Right. Close enough attention. You find out that wherever there's great suffering, there's always great profit. Yes. I mean, how many freakin LGBTQ shelters can together raising builds until we we ask, wait, why is the LGBTQ community, especially teenagers, the fastest growing homeless community in this country?


Because of all the ethnic religious places that are spewing hate from their pulpits. Right. And so these families are bringing home the shame to their houses and they're passing it down to their kids or or the amount of therapy that we've been giving and supporting to teachers and students who are victims of these school shootings or just in trauma from all the freaking drills that don't work. Until you figure out Leap Up River. There's all of these politicians who are in bed with NRA making cash hand over fist because of this, right.


It's why it's so hard to fight the gun lobby, because selling guns is a business. Not selling guns is not a business.


It's all just money. I think all just money.


And so many people get into it's like, yeah, I do love my children. I want to go to work for the PTA. Or do you want to be in charge? Right. I do want to be in charge of the soup kitchen, but I definitely want to take my family there on Christmas and take a picture and show everyone what I'm doing. I'm going to this mission trip in Africa. Right. I also I think about this with like Bill Gates.


I'm like, you have so much money, just solve it and go do something else. And I think that there are so many people who.


If if you solve all of the world's problems, you have to sit with your own and the people in power are not there yet. If if we feed everybody, what will I do? Who am I? And I think that that sounds fucked up, but it's very true, so many people get like. Get their self-worth out of what they do and being the person who raised fifty million dollars for homeless LGBTQ teens is a really great way to feel.


But if everyone is housed, what do you do and who are you? And I don't know if everyone's there yet.


So and also the the way the world changes, I have seen this just dramatically in my life, the way the world treats a woman philanthropist. Compared to the way a woman treats the world, treats a woman activist, oh yeah, day and night, I mean, when I have my together rising head on and I'm feeding people and I'm building shelters and everybody fucking loves me.


I'm like the ultimate woman. I'm like the ultimate good girl, I just serving, serving, serving, serving, serving. In a second I take that hat off and start speaking about politics. Got marching start, you know, speaking directly and to senators and Congress.


People will stay in your lane, stay in your life, right? Yeah, I think you said it. You said the word right there service. You are in service. And if you are serving someone, I appreciate that. But if you aren't demanding. Right, I do not appreciate that.


And to be in service is we love a woman in service.


I am being served as a quiet woman in service.


So I want to ask you two things to like as we. Wrap up eventually, right, like what are you. Looking forward to. Now that people's eyes have been opened and what are you excited about, do you think, like you want people obviously to read Untamed in their eyes to be open, but so many people have gotten to that next step and we're here now. We have done one step. What are you looking forward to this year as we move forward to whatever is coming next?


You know, I was lucky enough to be working beneath and with some amazing leaders in Georgia this last few months, and I think what happened in Georgia just gives me so much hope that I can't really put it into words yet because it feels to me like it was proof. Yeah, we had the numbers. It was proof that like like in my head I'm like, oh, actually, there's no states that are red. Like, all of them are actually blue.


And it's just that the blueness. Has been suppressed, right? Yes, absolutely. Mississippi has never been red Mississippi, the audacity for people to think that Mississippi, Fred, disgusts me.


And there's so many people have been saying follow black women, follow black women, follow black women. And that was like the the mantra.


But to like, actually see and that's one of the reasons there's so many reasons to be pissed about, you know, an insurrection at the Capitol. But one of the reasons I was so pissed is because it just stole that day.


You have to dodge that from like this. Every story that day should have been this activism like matter, all of those like unblurred, that unbelievable work that they did.


But. What I'm saying is I feel so much hope in that because I feel like we finally have proof that if everyone who believes in the future of what we've been talking about this whole time, the collective good. Yeah. Gets behind and starts working for. Activists like the ones all of those, Stacey Abrams of the Earth, right, and I know that Stacey Abrams is not working for white people, OK? And I'm not telling Stacey to do another damn thing, just another damn thing for the rest of her life.


I'm just saying that we all all of us who care about need to follow that model. Just be like tell us what to do. We will or will recreate what you've done. Right. So what happened in Georgia just feels like proof to me that it can be done. One state in time, this can be done, we can no longer say that it can't be that. So I'm excited about that. I'm excited about the potential and possibility that could come with what's been modeled in this election.


I do feel a little bit of hope in the fact that the capital insurrection, it will never stop sounding shocking. The capital insurrection has finally threatened people where they feel like they're supposed to feel safe.


Mm hmm. That's what it takes. You know, it's infuriating. Those sorts of people have been terrorizing all kinds of neighborhoods for a very long time and we didn't care.


But now that they've attacked something that we are supposed to feel safe, that I actually feel like I don't know what you guys think, but it feels to me like even even the Trumpet's Trumper Temperton. Yeah.


Are starting to be maybe a little shred of default, maybe a little shred of humility, maybe a little shred of rethinking.


Yeah, they're turning on them. And I and I like having some hope as a tree, a little hope as a tree, a little hope it's a tree. But I do think one of the things that's been very fascinating that you bring up, Glenn, is that all of those like Republicans in the Senate or whatever in Congress, they've been doing all this to turn those people on us. Right. To turn them on us. Right. But what happens?


A hit Dolgopolov. Right. They have turned on them and now we just free to do whatever we fuck. We won't. They already hated us. I'm not a traitor because you already hated me. What your expectation was for those senators has not been met. You always expect me to try to stop you. So now all that anger, obviously a lot of it still turned towards us, but now it's very much directed at whiteness. And I think that that is powerful because black people being mad at powerful white people, queer people being mad at power for white people has done nothing.


Angry white people being mad at powerful white people.


I'm like, all right, let's perkasie that.


What's that Internet meme santero where people are like, I belong to the Leppard's Eating People's Faces Party.


And then you're like, hey, I didn't think that leopard was going to very well. If it isn't, what is it?


Well, if it isn't the consequence of actually coming home to roost, I feel like I do feel a bit like all of it was.


I mean, it is it is kind of weird, right? Like, it's weird how all of the timing of all of this has has happened. But even in terms of like I have renewed hope for gun reform after what happened.


Oh, we have it all.


I have renewed hope for abolishing the police after what happened at the Capitol, after the videos of the policemen letting the protesters in or the police officer taking the selfies with the whatever the rioters, whatever idiots, insurrectionists people who were like for whatever for lots of lots and lots of different reasons, had their blinders on and couldn't couldn't see it.


When you see that officer taking the pictures with those people, everyone should feel sick, like it should be sickening.


People are often quick to say, oh, it's it's a few bad eggs.


Those were some pretty fucking important bad eggs. Those were eggs that were in important positions. So when you get a bad egg at the wrong time, it's really bad. So, like, that's my hope, is that people won't be so quick to be like, you know, a few bad apples don't spoil the bunch. Actually, a well-placed bad apple just opened the gate. Just open the gate. Yeah, open the gate.


Will see. I think the hope might come. We know how important images are. And when we're talking about binaries like you think we're talking about gender or white supremacy is still based on black and white, literally and like. Bad and good and white versus brown and black and police versus brown and black, like everything is like this is what's on our side. And this is not what the insurrection showed. The entire country was a lot of confusion.


They're like, wait, these white people are bad. We these these these these these white people are killing the police. Wait, what I think it did is it messed up.


The whole I think it pulled a piece out of the jigsaw puzzle to bring it back to Jangala and messed up the binary.


That's the binary. The quiet. We're seeing a little bit of humility right now that insurrection might be the beginning of people going. This is not as. As completely binary as we've been sold, right, yeah, we love to see it. I love the destruction of the binary baby. Yeah, it's it's become really hard. As we were saying earlier, it's become really hard to deny those things because those images exist.


So it's like when a Republican lawmaker is shot in an incident, as happened a few years ago, he can still be pro-gun.


But suddenly you're like, this is hypocritical and this is a performance.


And I feel like like you were saying earlier, Glenanne, about people not believing some of the things that they're selling, selling to other people, is that for me, it's a really powerful feeling to look in someone's face and say, I know that you know that that's not true.


Dragsholm, Casey, thank them for pelf. You keep a fight, you can fight back and forth. You know, we do it online. We do it on Facebook. But it's just like you. That's really all I feel like I ever need to say.


I know you know that's not true.


And we all need to drop in to what we know is fucking true. And Glenanne, I do think. Forty four weeks later, I think you've made such a huge impact on so many people allowing themselves to.


Listen to the voice and what it's saying and move forward in not just because once you know something, you can never unknow it, which is like a thing that, by the way, I've said for years, it's actually how I taught Berdy Internet safety was I was I was like my biggest fear was that Berdy would see some horrible, horrible thing.


And I was just like, Burty, once you know something, you can never unknow it. Once you see something, you can never unsee it. And I do feel. Grateful for. In some ways, if I can find like some I always, always like I always can, but I feel grateful for the confluence of circumstances leading us to your book, coming out at the perfect moment for it.


This insurrection, the attempt, this coup attempt, Shinjiro, I was listening to the podcast, you made me laugh so hard.


It's the coup and Egypt, like we know it's the coup, but you got to sign this. You've got to sign this contract. It's the coup. Yeah, that's true. You didn't even get a break for the coup. There's been a revolution and booked busy and a bunch of black squares up. And now they're they're cashing that check maybe. So, yes, there was a coup. But my team works during the coup. Shout out to Isaac.


But I just feel like that you have to look at these things. I do think. And then whatever the fucking great conjunction, if you're a real Cristol bitch like me and love Planas like, I think if these powers let me just tell you right now, if I got powers, I would tell everybody and I will shoot you.


You always have power. I'll tell you about like if I could fly I would be in these streets. Everybody knows I would be in these streets. Well I know, I know. But you do have powers. But we all do. And I think that that's like one of the best and most valuable takeaways from your writing for the last decade, and especially this book and and and especially in this moment. And and I'm I don't know. It's a lot, right?


Like, it's all a lot. But then I go back to the Talmud, quote, that I tried to cross stitch and failed miserably, which is, you know, you're not obligated to complete the work, nor are you free to abandon it.


Yeah, that's a helpful one. It's helpful, but it's not.


It's also like you say in the book, because, you know, we talk this podcast is called Doing Your Best, but it's like we say to like we can be doing our best. But if you hurt someone else, if your best is is not good enough, you have to acknowledge it and you have to do better. You have to, like, take responsibility for that. And similarly with that Talmud quote, like you're not obligated to complete the work.


We say a lot on this podcast, like maybe we won't see it in our lifetime. Well, fuck, that is what I'm here to say because I want to and I would love to. I want to complete the work. And I feel like we can. I just feel like we can. We have a force for good. We just got to we just got to follow black women. Have we have them. Yeah. But also I'll say when you follow us, listen, because you do be following and then y'all go do whatever the fuck you want.


And that's what I was going to say. I wanted to say earlier. That's Stacey Abrams worked. I don't know if it's because she refused to allow anyone to take the megaphone away from her or because for once people didn't try. But that's why it worked. It's so important. Instead of like starting your own committee or your own charity or whatever, check it out, see if somebody is already there in that place where this thing is happening and if somebody is already doing the work, if they already have boots on the ground.


This goes to our conversation about philanthropy. Ask them how you can help and then pitch in.


What you saying about knowing your place to I mean, you have to like I when we when we started figuring out together I was going to have enough money, make enough money to actually fund other organizations that became like our secondary thing. We started really going into communities in the way that we knew how and talking and listening about like, who do you trust? Like who's who's on the ground here, who's been on the ground here, who's effective here?


Who's in this community? You're doing work and all of these groups, OK, making up this? No, I don't know, like eighty five percent of the groups that we put together on a spreadsheet as a result of the conversations that we launched out into the world, all organizations led by women and most of them are led by women of color. And it's not like a fantasy idea. It's because these are the people who have been doing social justice work for the longest because they had to.


So they know what they're doing and they know the communities and but they're not getting the funds because know white supremacy. We are trust. We are trained and conditioned to trust faces that look like mine with money, even though real quick, but with no qualifications.


When you say something in the book that I think will I just like wrote down everything that I liked. But you say this, and I think that this is something that everyone can carry on with them after they've realized where their role is. Is that like, are you there to perform or are you there to transform? And we talked about how performative activism is. Right. But even in those quiet moments, like, did you go to that soup kitchen for the picture or did you go to the soup kitchen to figure out a way for there not to be a soup kitchen?


And I think that that's where we're at, is that people have finally realized, you know, sitting with themselves that, oh, like I do donate to a lot of things so I can tell people I donate to them. So now in those quiet moments, what are you going to do to transform? Remember when Paul Ryan was a thing and there was that picture of him at the soup kitchen pretending to clean dishes that were already clean?


I doubt that. That track. Yeah. Gosh, cleanin. I adore you.


Or you, too. Thanks for coming. And I've always seen you out there. I see there being a woman, a fully human woman out loud, saying more than three things. And now you say four things. They try to shut me down. We all see you. And I think you're helping. A lot of people see themselves in new ways and very vital ways in order to get this fucking party started.


Yeah, and not just white women, truly. I know we talk a lot about white women because, I mean, read the room. I really enjoyed the book. And I think that it's really important that people read it because there is something in it for like no matter what part of you needs it, there is something in it for a part of you. And I think that that's really important for women to know that when they open a book, there will be something in it for a part of them that desperately needs it, because we don't take the time to to meet women where they are.


And I think that that this book on tape does that very well. So I'm really glad we got to talk to you.


Yeah, I think you should. And, you know, I'll just be give it our compliments. The way we, you know, really means so much. I'll just be being nice. Well, we really did it. We really solved all the problems. No, the world's fine. Know you guys did it all. So I wrote for the ESPs one time. Is that a s.b in the back? I swear. Chicken that is espere. I was like you guys real quick before we got ladies the night that Abby won the SB.


Yeah. Was when we were she got the icon award and it was like Payton in Kobe actually.


And it was your first night together, right? I mean, back in the hotel room I was hiding, just had sex for the first time that my whole life was like, oh, this is life like it was the best day of my entire life the day she won. But I couldn't go with her because nobody knew about that. So I just waiting. No time shaking. Wow, wow, wow.


That is a Gadsby and that's why it's called to me. So you felt it. You felt that first. I felt that gay. But get S.P.I back. I love everything santero forever. ASSP. I love my part in the book though too. I just love like I love how you wrote so honestly about your love, like how you guys fucking did it for the first.


Like I bet like it's just it's, it was, it's great. I love it. The only thing I love more than a guy's aspey is a late in life lesbian.


Let me go. I'm not trying to put no labels on anybody, but hey man, if you want to leave your husband for a cool soccer player, pick it up.


Fuck it up. Yes, choke up a mother. We love to see it. Thank you so much, Glenn. And this was like the most fun.


It was at point dreamed it would be to hang out with you three guys think.


All right, well, I guess this is it. I guess we got to go.


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Hey, guys, we're back. Wasn't that nice? You feel inspired? I felt very inspired, but also like I want to congratulate us for not grilling Glenn about knowing Oprah. That was various we didn't we didn't even bring it up, was very cool, I'm not sure of I feel like I feel like I'm saving it because we have not we have not discussed the breakup of the century.


Well, the century. We'll see. We'll see.


I guess, Ben Affleck right now, Anna, is the breakup of the the decade.


We could say that. Yeah, it's the breakup of this week. Yeah.


Guys who didn't like honestly so much fucker has happened in celeb culture these first few weeks of twenty twenty one people are just like getting it out in the open.


It's hard though because insurrectionist, the best time to do a breakup insurrection is the best time to do a breakup truly is going to be on our next round.


Just someone write it down.


And it's interesting to me because they've been so public. So I feel like, you know, maybe they didn't want their breakup to be private. I don't know. But I'm so sad because I'll miss those pictures of them laughing and laughing together.


I am, too. And also, like, they just moved in together.


And I do feel a little bit like I think maybe I mean, she a dormice Jarvis, I don't know how to say on Qiana, she's Armis Darma we we hardly knew ye, but she is much younger than two do.


So when I found out that the the thing that they released, they're like they're in different places in their lives and I'm like yeah they're in different places in their life expectancy. His oldest boy is young Brigger. Yeah that's about right.


And and I also just think like that thing that shifts when you start to cohabitate with someone can be real fucking shocking. Yeah. We're like, oh, you're this person.


Oh, no. I mean, I can't imagine what she didn't know about him.


She always seemed like she was tired about that.


Duncan, what's the over under you? He must own a part of Dunkin Donuts. He owns stock like. Right. Like something.


I feel like I'm he doesn't. Ownership's foolish if he does not.


I agree. Has anyone dug deep into the Ben Affleck Dunkin Donuts connection?


Is he is he does he own part of it? Is he a stockholder? What does he he has is he a franchisee? I think he's so rich. And I think, like, he can have the fanciest donuts in the world. But like, if you're Beñat Black, like going to Dunkin Donuts three times a day is like when you're a kid in a hundred hours, like, so much money, like that's like a dollar to him.


So like it's to do it. It's also just a Massachusetts thing that it's unloyal. Every person from Massachusetts is to Dunkin Donuts for life. You probably just have Dunkin Donuts in Los Angeles because of Ben Affleck. That's what I would bet. I bet that he lobbied the company to bring a franchise out here so that honestly survive.


I'm a Krispy Kreme bitch.


Oh, yeah. Me too. For sure. Sure.


That had that had already signed. Baby, give it to me. I'm really I really miss.


Here's what I really miss from Los Angeles. I really miss in and out. I really do.


I don't like it. You guys. What are you talking about.


I don't think it's very good. I think they're but I like it. Whataburger is better. Whatever. Wow wow.


Wow. Isn't isn't in and out super religious.


Yeah. It's controversial. Yeah. But I couldn't remember if that was true.


It is true ish I think.


But I like D.L., I don't know. But I also remember the first time I had it being like this, this is it now I'm in and now I feel like this is like this is hurting my feelings a little bit.


I don't like special sauce is there in and out in space. There's no. In and out. In and out now in New York.


No dang. I thought there were supposed to be one. It seems like to me that they did x you got all the plans.


Part of it is the produce availability because they have like a whole thing about their produce being like fresh and whatever. Yeah. Whatever it has to be less than a day away or something.


Fresh produce is like a thing and man. Oh my God. Wait, cricket. Cricket literally was like, what's wrong with all the blueberries and oranges?


Oh yeah. You know, I used to work on this building on Broadway and it was around the corner from the deli where everyone went to get their lunch. And every morning there just be like a clear trash bag full of shredded iceberg on the sidewalk. You know, it's like there's all your lunch.


Can I just say it's so gross. I really connect with cricket on that because I'm from Florida. So I'm a snob because, like, especially citrus, I'm not right.


And felt like, oh, he's right, though. But like, all the literally all the fruit that we get here, she takes one bite and she's like, I don't know what this is, but this is not mango like it is.


Mango traveled three days to get here. I'm sorry.


I really love you, baby. It's not. It is really. So do is.


She's so funny of it. Yeah.


There's nothing worse than a Baghi blueberry growers. Well guys, I still feel fluey. I hope that this goes away and I hope that I don't actually like have the flu.


That would be wild. Yeah. I texted Rannells and I was like because we work together all day on Friday. And I was like, you feel fine, right?


And he was like, yeah, I feel totally great. And I was like, OK, well then we were all up in each other's faces. Yeah. So I feel like. If I feel like this has to be flu shot related, right, yeah, I think so. But but flu shots are great, everyone, so just keep going.


Am I am I spreading and spreading your bordering on and celebrity and in fact saying I am a lot of things that an anti Voxer I am not.


Here's the thing. I get those fucking vaccines even if it takes you down.


No, I believe that you probably are like probably not due for a loop because I always get like the glassy eyes. I feel like I have a fever, but I also have had the flu. So I know that, like, feeling bad for half a day or a day is so much better than having the fucking flu.


I can we. Jessica Biel and Justin Timberlake had a secret Pandi baby named finials. Yeah, that's true. Are we calling pandemic babies Pandi babies? Oh, well, I was. I love it. That's the cutest thing ever. Casey, did you make that up?


I mean, it's it's not my best work, but I guess I typed that. I love it. I saw Jaylo clapping back at Instagram commenters about the Botox and fillers thing. I am going to say something wild. I don't think she has had Botox or fillers. Oh, I think so either.


I've stood very, very close to gaolers face and she looks off to real talk to Puerto Rican. She got the melanoma. You know, it doesn't take much to keep it tight. She won't even I was pain. She was like, yeah, that's right. She you want to drink champagne to keep that body tight. So. Right. I'm going to I'm going to throw her a melodeon card and be like that bitch is not going to melt.


Also, doesn't my mother look amazing? Yeah, and I think it's really weird that people insist on that everybody is always getting something done like that to me gets real fucking annoying, like Leno is living an exceptional life. Obviously, she's got the benefit of all the money so she can have trainers and the things and the things and whatever. But at the same time, there's also just jeans. Yeah, people just have good jeans and like, why are people I just get over it, guys, maybe you can't exist without Botox and fillers, but my Jaylo can.


I've seen her. I've seen her up close, very, very close. I sat next to her once at the Golden Globes. And, you know, I told did I ever tell you this? I could tell that she was like she she was so she was beautiful. I mean, it's like the most beautiful person I've ever seen IRL. And I've seen so many beautiful people.


But at one point during the night, er every day, well she was like, oh that's sweet. My cousin says I look beautiful on the red carpet.


She showed me a text. That is sweet, that's nice to know. The Jaylo is like reading texts from her cousins being like I'm so glad that that person that my cousin reached out and told me that I look beautiful. She's very sweet.


The reason why I've been close to her is because when I work to watch what happens live, she was a guest several times, but also whenever her best friend Leah Remini would come on the show, Jaylo would sit in the audience. She would come and support her. And it was an audience of like fifteen people. So Jaylo would just be sitting right next to me.


Oh. I wonder they're like you and Michelle Jaylo and Leah, I've I've often said that they're like us. I did not know their best friend. Yeah, I do love one. Super famous people just go to regular stuff because it's always like, am I like my friend said that Ryan Reynolds walked into a bar one time that he and his friends were at and he was like, he's just like this older gay guy. And he was like my dick Kingold for no reason.


And I turned around and realized what he was like, the power he had it. It was like we walked in. It was like one of those things when you're like it's the same thing with equal green came to visit tonight. I'll never forget. She walked in and I was like. Is everybody Everybody I know, are they a group effort? Is everybody like me?


Because I've never seen that first before when I was like years and years ago, I want to say this was like 15 years ago at Tost on Third Street.


They used to have the best cupcakes at Toast and people would wait for hours outside to eat. You remember, toast anyone and toast anyone who was on Third Street.


I was like just running in to get coffee. And the person in front of me turned around and I audibly gasped.


It was Jared Leto who does have a pretty girl face. Yeah, it was. And this was also 15 years ago, Jared Leto, although not that he's changed much. I saw him at a health food place not long before I left Los Angeles.


He was like so alien looking in his perfection was like hard for my brain to process.


Yeah. Yeah. Like, I was like, oh, my God. Very high. And I also love when they have something that is like so human that you never caught on film before. So there's like a couple of people that like have secret chemicals and like one person has like a really voluptuous but and so I love learning about celebrity. When you get to see them in person where you're like, oh my God, you're busway juicier than I ever noticed in a.


That happened to me when I went to SNL to see a taping and I saw Nicki Minaj performed and I like suck like those hasit things like her so that you could wait to see it from the front. When you see from the back, like I saw the back of her ass while I was looking, I don't know how to describe it. I like was looking in Nicki Minaj face and I was like, whoa. So I was like, I know your body is like wild and sexy.


And then, like, I saw it in real life and I was like, I don't think I've ever seen like a video vixen. Yeah. Or yeah, I've never seen a body that's sexy in real life. And I was like that.


I'd never the record, the the juicy booty that I'm talking about is the man.


I'm going to tell you about.


I'll tell you in the great chat, I knew an actor who's the guy who people think is hot and he has a really big but to whom he probably is hot but just has like a big but yeah, nothing wrong with the big.


But if you're into that tiny bit.


But men.


So both of you, please wait. And then what were you what is your thing.


You're like in our podcast, develop some type of Internet comment criteria we can ask people to adhere to, like when you should say something to a celebrity versus taking it to a group chat versus just ignoring it and living your life.


What are you hiding? Right. Yes. Chrissy Teigen, a quick update.


So obviously, she lost a child and her dad was like, you should do something for yourself. And she took a picture of a horse and she was like, I'm going to start the horse riding. And then people are like, you don't understand what it's like to be poor. Why would you show a picture of this horse? And she was like, trigger warning. I lost a child. My therapist told me to pick up a hobby. I'm going to horseback ride.


And they were like, read the book room. And I was like, the Internet is bad. Please leave this lady alone, ride horses. If you got money, go for short ride horses. That's great. Whatever she has to do for her grief, that is her fucking business. What do you what do you want her to fucking do that would help her grieve? Like, I don't understand my business and that's.


Well, this is like this is part of the issue. You know, it's something that we have like that you deal with when you are so open and you put so much of yourself in your life out there, which is that people feel a they feel very entitled to all of it. Right. Like they feel like you know them. Yeah.


And be. Christie is obviously going on her own journey and like her journey doesn't have to look like yours person sitting at home like you guys aren't actually the same people. You haven't lived the same lives. And like so if equine therapy is hoping what she's going through in this moment and you've never heard of equine therapy, she's not inferring that it means that you're somehow inferior or like, you know, I mean, like, yeah, it's just like people take these things too deeply personally in a way that is really crazy making.


And like when you talk about when we were talking about, like, let's all come together, this is the part where this is like where we all could use some help. Like, my experience does not have to be the same as your experience to be a valid experience. Right. And your experience and my experience does not have to be the same as your experience to be a valid experience. And it doesn't mean that she's so out of touch and she's like, you know, with her privilege and her wealth, I don't know I don't know your life, but you don't get to judge what she's doing to help herself.


And she's trying to share in the hopes, I would imagine, how she has been sharing throughout this entire experience, which has been like really her heart wrenching and heart wrenching to watch as somebody who peripherally knows her a bit and just from friends from the Internet. But like, I think she's done such a service to people who by normalizing a really hard, terrible loss that she and her husband and her family went through, that so many people go through and get very like don't want to talk about, feel shame and hold onto things and how do they deal with the grief?


And she's been very open with it. So to see her, like, dragged for this makes me makes me annoyed. It goes both ways, right? Like, I don't think I'm better than you are. My experiences are better than you. And you can't you can't judge my experiences because of what I do have in this moment. Yeah.


Yeah. I just think that would be handy. This is why I think like I think it would be of service if someone official developed a set of criteria, it could be really simple for whether or not you should call someone out for something that they posted online. Like, here's a simple question. Did Christie's horse hurt? You know, then don't fucking say anything.


Let's move on. But, hey, I think you need to do this.


Well, you're perfect for that. Just like maybe a little flowchart. Did Christie's horseback riding lesson hurt you in any way? If no, keep scrolling. That's it.


Casey, I'm going to I'm going to put you on point for this one, OK? I think this is your area of expertise.


In fact, I think you're really good at it because as we know, you worked at Watch What Happens Live for many years, show you had to determine what was our business and what was not our business.


It's a true yes, it's true. And it's also just like a service that I've worked for a lot of celebrities.


And one thing I've been very proud of is, you know, when the people have come to me and been like, hey, should I say this?


And I always say, no, you should not ask if you have to ask.


The answer is probably no. True. Especially if it's on the Internet. If it's on the Internet, I like I'll ask my friends about jokes. I'll be like, you get this and then they'll be like, then I'll post it. But if you have it, you have to be like, should I say this? Should I just take a screenshot of stuff and then let's send it to my friends and then we can talk about. Exactly, exactly.


And the group chat is that's why the group chats are worthwhile and that's why we need to keep maintaining our group chats. Yeah.


Everybody out there, your jobs are a beautiful garden. They are. I know. I love them.


I'm always astonished when someone will ask me in a comment like, where is that necklace from? And I'll say what it is. And then they'll respond like, oh, do you know how much that costs get real?


And I'm like, OK, listen, I can you ask me, guys, I simply cannot fucking find the rip off on Etsy.


I don't know what to tell you, you know what I mean. Like, I didn't buy Berdy the J.W. Anderson Harry style sweater. I just found a lady on Etsy who made it for us.


Although don't rip off our pay people with whatever, OK? Yes.


Oh, you guys, you know, but truly, like, before we shut this down, I will say that, like, sometimes we just have expensive tastes. And I think you should get less mad about how much stuff costs and just really reconcile that you have good taste. Like I really have been like try to figure out what my favorite chair was when I was working in an office. And I finally like to get it and it costs fourteen hundred dollars.


And I was like, oh my taste is so good, you know, so I don't get mad. If you like something like five thousand dollars just be like, damn it and taste.


My mom always used to say that about me too, that I always had the most expensive taste. I would like be able to pick out the thing that was like I was so mad.


I really because I bought like a chair for like 80 bucks because I'm sitting in a chair all the time for work. And then I was like, damn, what was that NBC chair I like, started looking up fancy chairs and guess what? I landed on fucking then fucking Miller. Fourteen hundred dollars Chrom bullshit. I was so bad that it is annoying because that's that seems too expensive.


Her chair. I don't like this chair that I'm sitting in currently and I recently. OK, this morning decided I was going to buy a new chair and then I got very overwhelmed.


There's a lot of chairs that a lot of options, but just think about what you like when you're in office, because then I also started freaking out because I was like, they bought everybody a thousand dollar chairs. How do you get them wholesale? Let me see. Call me.


That's all I told you. I was like, go and try to find a used one, because that's exactly the kind of chair that every company buys two hundred of. And then they go bankrupt a week later because they spent all their money on jabarin. Fourteen hundred dollar chairs. I found the place and they sell refurbished ones and I was like, that makes sense because like all a bunch of offices are closed now. So they just got rid of all those office shares.


So I'm going to get one. I'm going to invest in myself and write it off. But yeah, the chair that I really like was hundred dollars.


If I was, I mean, that would make me furious as well.


I am going to like maybe go lie down because I feel weird still. I lamingtons, I don't I mean, I don't know what else I think it was, honestly, I think it was the detoxing massage. Yeah, no, I did it and I drank too much of the other stuff. When you get a massage that really does loosen up all the lactic acid in your body and you really need to flush it out, and if you don't drink exceptional amounts of water, Postini massage, you will.


Yeah, it's really just everything together. You got a shot. You've been working really hard. You're tired, you got a massage.


That American American you have like poison's floating through your body massage, all kinds of things. Yeah. I want to say I'm I'm hopeful in this moment right now. I'm glad we're releasing this on Tuesday. Before inauguration Wednesday, here's just like sending all the positive thoughts and vibes that there's just going to be nothing but a peaceful. Transition, no bullshit, no white supremacists. Just just one shot, and I'm just sending the bus to D.C. and. Yeah, that's all I got, that is literally all I know.


And then he's going to ask you guys to subscribe and Busi, in case you're the only one to do that, because I don't subscribe to the podcast, wherever you get podcasts, you can get it anywhere and you share it, download it. Downloads are important, I hear, I'm told. And some people say, yeah, I believe it would be.


And here's the thing, guys. You, me, straight with you. Just be as honest, radically honest as possible. We need more people to listen to this fucking podcast.


Otherwise it's not worth the content because we all have 4000 other jobs and.


Your moms need to buck and hustle out there on the street. What is happening? What am I even saying at this point? I'm so proud of you guys.


Yeah, you got to like, look, do I look a little kid? Yeah, I do. Right. Yeah, I mean it.


You know, I hate being sick more than anything. Know, it's like my like for me, being like a little sick is the worst thing in the world. Yeah. Yeah.


Just just knock me down because I don't want to have. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're going to I have faith that you're going to take a nap, you're going to drink a bunch of liquids taken out and then you're going to feel amazing when you get up tomorrow morning. You sing great and flu free. Yeah. You just kind of got to go to bed.


The answer to everything is good. Yeah, that's true.


I mean, it's just business down and down. I love you guys. We love you. Let me say we're going to be good. Call it the white supremacists in your lives. That's your job for this week.


Good bye. Bye. But.