Welcome to criminalize a production of chandeliered audio in partnership with I heart radio seeking comely widow who owns a large farm in one of the finest districts in Laporte County, Indiana, desires to make the acquaintance of a gentleman equally well provided with a view of joining Fortune's No Replies by letter considered.

Unless Sender is willing to follow answer with personal visit, tricolours need not apply.

Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Criminality of where we've already gotten things started. This season, we are exploring the lives and motivations of some of the most notorious lady poisoners throughout history, whether they considered themselves as comely widows or not.

I'm Maria Tomoaki.

And I'm Holly Fry.

And the comely widow we're talking about today is Belle Gunnis, who killed an estimated and this is crazy, 40 victims and possibly more in Chicago, Illinois, and Laporte, Indiana, between 1884 and 1928.

And then, poof, like Kaiser Sosi, she vanished.

Yeah, I feel like Bill is one of those topics that if we hadn't included her there, we would be stoned to death in the streets.

I feel so, too, like I'm actually she's a popular poisoner in history's very to her story as long.

Yeah. So Belle, who picked up the nickname Hells Bill later in life, was born Bryn Hild started in November of 1859 in Silver, Norway. She was the daughter of a stonemason and the family, which was large, lived on a small farm.

By all accounts, Bell had a pretty normal childhood.

Yeah, and historians who've studied her life looking for any reason why Bell could and would turn into one of the most prolific killers in the United States.

They found nothing particularly notable in her upbringing that would suggest that she would grow up to be who she grew up to be.

There is one story, though, that pops up a lot in her folklore, but no one has been able to solidly confirm or deny it. They just tell it. So this story, which may or may not be true, goes like this at the age of 18 below at this time, still living in Norway was pregnant and attending a country dance. One evening, she was physically assaulted by a man and she miscarried the perpetrator. The story goes, was from a wealthy family, and he very likely bribed his way out of the charge, basically got away with this assault.

But Bell, it is said, was never the same again.

So not long after this, she immigrated to America and at the age of twenty one, which puts us here at about 1881, she left Norway and she settled in Chicago. Some stories say that her sister had left a few years prior and she just kind of went into the same city that her sister was at.

But it's really unconfirmed. She changed her name to Bella Peterson and for a time she worked as a domestic. Three years later, Belle married Mads Sorenson, who was also originally from Norway. In just a few years into their marriage, the couple opened a candy shop at the corner of Grand Avenue in Elizabeth Streets in Chicago.

Now, this sounds literally and figuratively like kind of a sweet story, but this was an unsuccessful endeavor. And within a year, they had closed their doors for good and actually closed is not really an accurate description.

The shop went up in flames a little bit different, but they turned their bad business luck around there. At least they tried to. They collected the insurance money and with it they bought themselves a house.

Now, it has been suggested in several accounts that Bell and MoD's might not have been able to have had biological children of their own looking to grow a family. The couple instead opted to adopt and care for foster children. They could not seem to shake that bad luck, though, and this time it was unfortunately with their kids.

So two of their young daughters passed away, both quite unexpectedly. Caroline died in 1896 and Alex, whose name actually may have been Axelle.

But it's a little difficult to know because reports are differing.

Passed away in 1898 and the cause of death was reported as acute colitis in both instances. And the symptoms of acute colitis include things like nausea, fever, diarrhea, lower abdominal pain.

And there are also symptoms of many forms of poisoning, which is no surprise to anyone who has been following this podcast from Episode one. So this just seemed like a string of bad luck and no one was suspicious at the girls deaths the parents collected on the life insurance policies for both kids.

Then in nineteen hundred, not long after they lost the shop and their two daughters, their home mysteriously burned down.

This is really bad luck. But at this point, both felt that her husband needed a bigger and better life insurance policy, which I mean, I don't blame her at this point. She's like everyone's dying and everything's burning down.

So he took one out. But I really kind of hate to dwell and say this again, but tragedy again struck. Mudd's died of heart failure. Curiously, his death happened on the one and only day that his two life insurance policies, the new bigger one and the older, smaller one overlapped.

The family doctor listed the cause of death as heart failure, but there was another doctor and that doctor suspected that MoD's had been poisoned with strychnine.

We don't want to spoil what's to come, but, yes, I think we are all pretty comfortable at this point guessing that that second doctor was probably on to something. Right. Bell's in-laws were suspicious of her, but still no charges were filed and Bell collected eight thousand five hundred dollars.

And it's really hard, we always say, to extrapolate like the value of money then to what it is now, because there are a lot of differing factors that impact that calculation. But roughly, it's probably a bit more than 200000. I mean, eighty five hundred dollars seems like a lot of money in nineteen hundred.

Whether, you know, we can do the proper math on it or not, it sounds big. So with this money from her husband's life insurance payout, Bill decided to get out of town. She bought a 40 acre farm far from the whispers that were growing around her and her tragic life. In 02, Bell and her three foster children, Jenny Myrdal and Lucy, moved to La Porte, Indiana. And not long after settling in, she married Peter Gunnis, a fellow widower who also had children.

He had two young daughters. But of course, Bel's bad luck followed her to Indiana. It seemed just a few days after the wedding, Peter, seven month old daughter, died unexpectedly while she was in Bill's care. And then just eight months later, Peter also died and under some very, very strange circumstances.

Let me describe these very strange circumstances because they're crazy. Panth Peter was struck on the back of his head when a sausage grinder fell off a high shelf in the kitchen, because that's definitely not a typical way to meet one's demise.

The coroner for sure looked into it. And on top of that, one of those children, Jenny, who was fourteen, was said to have confided to a classmate that and I'm quoting her here, My mama killed my papa. She hit him with a meat cleaver and he died. But don't tell a soul.

There was a period of time when I needed to know ICD codes for medicine. And I remember there were so many crazy ones, like struck by a duck and like just just nonsense that you think would never happen. And it made me wonder, why is there one that says struck on the head with a sausage grinder? Because Peter needed it.

But when questioned about it, Jenny denied that she said those things. And so this incident was considered a freak accident. Bill was cleared and she received about three thousand dollars in insurance money. Again, rough equivalency here, but we're guessing right around 50 grand today.

But Peter's brother, very smartly so, decided to take custody of Peter's older daughter.

Then shortly after Peter's death, Bell told her neighbors that she had sent Jenny to a finishing school for young girls all the way to the West Coast in Los Angeles, which is not suspicious.

Kind of random, right? Yeah, it just seems it seemed sudden to me. Yes.

At this point, after the deaths of two husbands and three children, all of whom had insurance policies that Bill collected on, she had become fairly wealthy from those insurance payouts. She decided to look for a new partner.

And she was very practical in her search, practical like at the level of the way an employer might fill a job opening that she turned to the personals and she picked the interest of many men through matrimonial ads that she placed in primarily three different weekly Norwegian language newspapers throughout the Midwest.

And she would follow up with sexually suggestive correspondence once a potential suitor got hooked.

It's unknown how many men actually corresponded with Bell. However, accounts from her mail carrier suggested it was not unheard of for her to receive as many as eight letters a day from potential suitors.

And it wasn't all about romance.

In one letter to a potential suitor who was named Carl Peterson, Bell wrote, And I'm going to quote her again here. I have picked out the most respectable and I have decided that yours is such.

If you think that you were able in some way to put up a thousand dollars cash, we can talk matters over personally. I like to think that, like today, it would be like send me a traveler's check and write. Do people still use them? I have no idea. I mean, there's part of me that's like I get it. You're being very pragmatic.

She certainly had a strict vetting system. Right? Bell's neighbors watched her goings on and they whispered as men came knocking at Belle's door. She was often seen going for carriage rides with a different man each Sunday afternoon and always wearing the finest hair and clothing styles.

One of her farmhands told the New York Tribune that Bell often concealed the identities of the men who visited the farm. And there was a new man there just about every week. She would introduce them if it came up to anyone who inquired as her cousins.

And Bell, as it turns out, had a lot of cousins from Kansas, South Dakota, Wisconsin and the greater Chicago area.

Very big family.

Well, we did mention she came from a large. She did. We are going to stop here and take a quick break.

And when we come back, we're going to talk about Bill Suiters, who were, as it turns out, and I don't think we're giving anything away here, her victims.

Welcome back to criminality.

Here's where Bell's bad luck begins to look a lot more like murder than tragedy. All right. Here is where we start seeing the list of deaths grow beyond Bell's spouses and children. Bell suitors were, as we said before the break, her next victims.

Each of them brought cash when they visited her farm, as she requested, and then each of them disappeared. Potential suitors like John Moe of Minnesota brought a large sum of cash to prove his worth and then, strangely, never seen again. More suitors followed. John, Mouz, Ulibarri, Boasberg and O'Loghlin Bloom to name only a few. All went missing in this same pattern.

Between 1995 to 1997, there were dozens and dozens of men who knocked on Bell's door. She didn't marry any of them, but none of them were ever seen again.

After visiting her in July 1987, Bell hired a new farmhand that was a man named Ray Limpia. And Ray was the 37 year old with an unsavory reputation. He was known as a drinker and a gambler and kind of just an all around slacker. But unexpectedly, he turned out to be a competent carpenter and a really loyal employee to Bell. So she was really pleased by that.

And she moved him into her home and the two began a sexual relationship.

But by all accounts, this was not any sort of romance or love.

Belle considered way too poor to be a real suitor or her partner. But Ray did fall for her and he began to resent the men who answered her lovelorn ads.

And why were there are a lot of men to be resentful over.

They just kept showing up and they often were so foolish. They signed over deeds. They handed over bank account numbers. In some cases they wrote checks or they showed up, as she requested, flush with cash and promised to pay for this or that, including even paying for Bell's mortgage.

And every single one of them was never seen.

After visiting that farm bill, though, would tell her neighbors who asked after these men that it was a sign of their untrustworthiness and that they had abandoned her.

She told relatives who inquired about missing men that they had gone elsewhere, maybe back to Norway or off to Chicago. And frankly, there was one instance where I read that she told someone that their brother had gone to Oregon and I just found that very random.

All the while, Bell continued to exchange deeply personal love letters with her potential suitors.

But maybe now we should start calling them victims.

She developed a long distance romance with one suitor in particular. This was a forty something South Dakota wheat farmer and also fellow Norwegian immigrant named Andrew Helgeland. And over a period of about a year and a half or so, Bellson, Andrew, upwards of 80 letters, give or take a letter or two. That is a lot of letters.

One letter meant for Andrew was found on his farm and read like so to the dearest friend in the world.

No woman in the world is happier than I am. I know that you are now to come to me and be my own. I can tell from your letters that you are the man I want.

It does not take one long to tell when to like a person.

And you I like better than anyone in the world.

I know think how we will enjoy each other's company. You the sweetest man in the whole world. We will be all alone with each other. Can you conceive of anything nicer? I think of you constantly when I hear your name mentioned. And this is when one of the dear children speaks of you or I hear myself humming it with the words of an old love song. It is beautiful music to my ears.

My heart beats in wild rapture for you, my Andrew. I love you.

Come prepared to stay forever. She's good. She is so good.

It is no wonder so many men were coming to her. She's good. So right.

She is excellent at crafting narrative. She suddenly hits the important words and points that will titillate the reader and think like they will clearly get her message that she is promising. Oh yeah.

Really, really. You know, exciting romance, even while she's kind of cloaked it in these words of like sweetness and almost demure, like I'm so excited about you. But clearly they will know exactly what is going to happen. So I copy edited for a long time, and if someone turned this into me as a sample, I would hire them on the spot.

So that letter that that amazingly letter got Andrew in January of nineteen. So it didn't take very long, he came to visit BHEL, not intending to stay forever, but at least for a few weeks for his first first visit, Andrew had brought with him close to three thousand dollars. And Bell and Andrew together went to the local bank to cash that check. Bell wanted it in all cash, despite Andrew and the bank teller suggesting that she keep some in an account as a safety net.

Ray. And remember, that was her handyman argued with Bell about Andrew, who he did not want Bell to get married to. So she promptly fired Ray Andrew. And we would love to say that this was unexpected. But at this point, is it actually is it?

Yes. Andrew was mysteriously gone the next day, and when he did not return home, his brother naturally grew concerned. Right.

So then he found the letters from Bell and doing a little amateur investigating, he learned that Andrew had cashed a large check in Laport.

And as far as Bell was concerned, she admitted freely that Andrew had visited her, but that he had also left.

But Andrew's brother was not willing to just take that as the answer. And so he actually showed up in Laport looking to talk to Bill personally and alarmed that there may have been foul play. He wanted the farm searched.

And then as all of this was playing out around four a.m. on April 28th, nineteen Eight Belles farmhouse burned to the ground.

Tragedy struck again when we return. Well, it wasn't potatoes that were found in the dirt at Bell's farm. Welcome back to Criminal.

We're at the point in Belgin a story where skeletons come out of the closet.

OK really I mean the ground that came out of the ground literally the skeletons are in the ground now.

There's a really interesting thing that Bell did the day before her house burned down that we should talk about. She visited her lawyer as she asked him to draw up her will, leaving everything she owned firstly to her children. And according to some accounts, fewer accounts, though. Secondly, to an orphanage in Chicago.

While this aspect of drawing up a will isn't necessarily so interesting, this next part is during her meeting, she was quoted as telling her lawyer and again, direct quote, I'm afraid he's going to kill me and burn the house in the he that she's referring to. There is her now former handyman and person who fell in unrequited love with her, Ray.

She never went to the police about this. She only spoke to her lawyer. But the next thing you know, the Laporte County sheriff, Albert Schmetzer, was questioning Ray, and Ray denied setting fire to anything. He even asked if and her kids had gotten out of the house safely. Based on one eyewitness account of Ray fleeing the scene of the fire, the former handyman was charged with arson.

And because the bodies of three children and one woman, specifically one headless woman, were found in the basement crazy.

He was also charged with four counts of murder. So initially, that heedlessness just.

Oh, my goodness.

So initially, authorities believed the bodies were those of Belle and her children, Myrtle, who was 11, Lucie, who was nine, and Phillip, who was five at the time. And why wouldn't you assume that right there the three children and the mother who live in the house?

But it was quickly determined that this headless body couldn't actually be Belle. And the most obvious problem was that Belle stood six feet tall and weighed about 200 pounds. But the person found in the basement was only about five three, up to maybe five, six inches in height and weighed about 75 pounds, of course, minus the weight of the head. But the headless person had also been poisoned with strychnine before the fatal fire.

So it was also assumed that everyone had been asleep on the second floor when the fire broke out, right.

And as the house collapsed and the the floors collapsed, they fell, however, and rather weirdly, the family's piano, which was normally on the first floor of the home, was found directly on top of those four bodies. Happens all the time.

The old piano jump right there was there was no way not to consider this a murder scene at this point.

I mean, it could have been previously.

But now the sheriff launched an investigation into what was going on.

The search of Bel's farm began. And at the time, Bells Farm Hand was a man named Joe Mackeson. And he suggested to the authorities that they start digging for evidence near the pigpen.

The sheriff took about a dozen men to Bell's farm to see what they could dig up, literally, and Holly, when they find. Well, it's a bit grisly.

So they found the small bodies of two unidentified children. And then just a few days later, Andrew's body was found, as were about 12 other bodies, along with a variety of body parts.

And they also unearthed the body of Jenny Olson, who had vanished in December of 1996. If you recall, Bill had at the time said that Jenny had gone to school in Los Angeles. Jenny also having been the one who told a schoolmate that her mother had killed her father with the meat grinder.

All of these bodies were found in shallow graves. So a little bit about Bell.

Bell was a really strong woman who, if you want to imagine her, imagine her as a woman who preferred to wear men's overalls. And she did her own pig butchering on the farm.

And addition, in addition to writing all of the letters she wrote and all of that butchering Bell had been spending her money on large wooden trunks, as well as digging in her farm's pigpen late at night, the late at night.

And, you know, I'm not suspicious at all, right? I mean, I always dig it.

Listen, she's got a busy letter writing a pig butchering schedule. You got to fit it in where you can. Of the bodies that were found, seven were identified pretty quickly. But then there were also all of these unidentified bodies and these bodies were considered additional victims, though authorities could never prove it.

If you have another hour or two to spare, we could share all of these names and the small bits and pieces of their stories that have been pieced together over the years. But ultimately, the bottom line is that Bill's victim list is just really, really long.

It actually, if you have it like in a word document, it scrolls down just one page. You have to keep going. So we decided not.

To talk about the specific victims because of that, but primarily because of the crude recovery methods at that time, the exact number of individuals that were unearthed on the farm remains kind of still unknown.

There could be more 14 of Bell's victims were eventually literally pieced together.

But there were a number of teeth and bones.

And there's this one detail that just really it's hard to like something in this story. But I did like this.

Watches that were found in the ground in total, her victims are estimated to be at the very, very least, the minimum is 40.

The coroner declared Bell dead after dentures found in the debris two weeks later were identified by the local dentist as hers.

Curiously, though, these dentures were found intact. They were not at all burned. And that suggested to a lot of people that this was planted evidence.

Yeah, so that was gone. Right. But according to the former handyman, Ray, she definitely was not dead, Ray.

And since he lived with her, he seemed to know quite a bit about what happened in her home.

He said that Bill murdered her suitors by poisoning their after dinner coffee with strychnine. And as an aside, in a personal note, I am very pleased that it was not arsenic and that we get to talk about a different poison.

Thank you, Balogun. And while they were in this stupor, she would hit them over the head with her meat cleaver to finish the job.

But next she would bring the body to the basement and butcher it and would distribute its parts among her hogs.

Some she would bury.

He said that she was very skillful and she skillfully sliced it apart, wrapped in an oil cloth and put it in the dirt. And believe it or not, this is actually where things get more disturbing, even more according to race account, Bell smothered her children and fled with her money.

Raised estimate was that she had gotten anywhere from one thousand dollars to thirty two thousand dollars from each man. Just amazing. And he was certain that she had taken up a new identity.

So while Belle, who would have been about 48 years old at this point, she may or may not have been living a new life. But on May 22nd, 1998, Ray was tried for murder and arson.

He pleaded innocent to all of these charges, but he did admit that he had helped Belle bury her victims. His defense hinged on the assertion that the headless body was not Bel's body. So he was found guilty of arson, but he was acquitted of the murder charges.

On November 26, 1988, Ray was sentenced to two to 21 years in the state prison in Michigan City, Indiana. He eventually died there of tuberculosis. That was just about a year later. And on his deathbed, Ray confessed to a priest that he had helped Bell escape to a nearby town. And from there, she caught a train to Chicago. He confessed that he was the one who set the house on fire as a cover up and that the headless corpse had been a woman that Bell had hired as a housekeeper.

Interestingly, Ray also said in this confession that there was another accomplice, but he never shared that name. And that remains a complete question mark.

Right? That's so interesting. And it's nowhere so interesting in Bell's story, or at least Ray's account of Beltz story grew nationwide and for years.

And I'd actually be comfortable saying even decades after the fire and her disappearance, there were Bel's sightings everywhere around the U.S. So we have a few of the most interesting examples of these sightings and also kind of show you how varied they can be.

Yes, as late as 1930, one bell was reported to be living in Mississippi, where she supposedly owned quite a bit of real estate and was living her life as a prominent citizen.

Another report, and this one is the most popular theory that you'll hear a lot as part of the story of Belle. It's also from 1931, and it suggests that she may have changed her identity to Esther Carlson.

So Esther Carlson is really interesting because Esther kind of came to light when she was arrested in Los Angeles for poisoning a man named Auguste Lindstrom. That was a Norwegian American gentleman who may have been her boss. And that happened in February 1931. And she did it for the money to people who had known BHEL claimed that she and Esther were the same woman. And those claims were based on those people having seen a few photographs of Esther.

Now, if you've seen older photographs, you know, from the early 1980s, this could be a part of the story that's a little bit squishy. They certainly did not have all the detail we are used to today. A lot of times those photographs, you know, diminished over time and lost their their sharpness and clarity. So it's a little uncertain. Esther did absolutely resemble Bell, though. The two were about the same age. And the really curious part of the story to me is that there had been no record of Esther before 1948.

Esther died on May six, 1930, one while awaiting trial for that poisoning charge.

Just it's yeah.

I agree with you that the no record of Esther before nineteen is curious, but we'll see as recently as 2007. So this is something that people are still today talking about. One hundred years later, scientists have tried to link Esther and Bell through DNA, but so far things have been mostly unsuccessful, mainly because samples have degraded. Families have been very supportive and have offered their help.

But it would seem that Bell has taken her secrets to the grave.

But her legacy certainly lives on, there is actually quite a musical and theatrical body of work surrounding Bell and her story. She has been the subject of at least four American musical ballet. Amazing. One song, for instance, is entitled The Battle of Belle Gunnis.

The about one song. One song, for instance, is entitled The Ballad of Belle Gunnis, and it is sung to the tune of Love, Careless Love. And it's been described not so much as a song as a crime report in Rome.

There is also Belle Gunnis, the murder musical, and there was also a movie made about 10 years ago that was called The Gunnis Mystery to her farm as well, which has since been nicknamed Murder Farm has become quite a tourist attraction and they offer concessions and there are souvenirs for sale.

Belle has even become part of local history. The La Porte County Historical Society Museum in Indiana has a permanent Bell Gunnis exhibit. So that is the story of how we may never know what happened to her. I was trying to think of a good way to make a drink that reflected one of the things that really stood out to me about Bell's story, which is perhaps shockingly, not all the murder, but the way that she shifted her identity over and over.

Right. Even when she moved to the United States from Norway. She switched over then, you know, with any of these men, she went from being, like, very coquettish and sweet to killing them and then ultimately went from being Belgian us to being possibly Esther or something. So I wanted to make a drink that changes its identity as your drinking.

That's fantastic.

So was so OK, so this this is not a difficult drink to make, but you do have to do some prep ahead of time. So first of all, you need an ice cube tray, some cranberry juice and some pickled jalapenos in an eyedropper.

I know this sounds ridiculous, but stick with me like a scientific experiment.

Drink like honestly, it was so fun to test this one because it worked the way I hoped it would. And then I was like, yes. So you fill your your ice cube receptacles halfway up with cranberry juice, put that in the freezer and let it set. Then with like an eyedropper, you don't want a lot. You're literally all you're getting out of that pickled jalapeno jar is a little bit of juice. So you're picking up like three to five drops and putting those into each of the pre frozen.

Uh, cranberry juice, half cubes, let that freeze for just a little while and then top it up with cranberry and finish your ice cubes. So now you have cranberry ice cubes with a little bit of hollow Penya hidden in them. And then you're just going to mix two ounces of vodka, the actual drink part, super easy. So you're going to mix two ounces of vodka and five ounces of ginger ale, six ounces, if you like, a different, you know, proportion their.

Then you will drop these ice cubes in and as you were drinking, you first just get this very light ginger ale and vodka drink and then you get a cranberry drink and at the very end, you get a stinger.

You know, that drink actually is very bell, right? Right. I think you kind of nailed her like at the end. You die like.

Well, and that's the thing, too. I always, you know, and I'm just doing fun experiments in the kitchen to get to any of these. So, like, I always want everybody to experiment with their own stuff. One, you can use, you know, a different mixer. If you like gin and ginger ale, that's fine. You just want to do things that are are going to be impacted by the shift to the cranberry and the the Halloween you.

And then the other thing you want to think about is whether or not you are a fast drinker or a slow drinker.

Like if you are a slower drinker that sips a little at a time, you want to mix your ginger ale and vodka with some regular ice before you add these cranberry jalapeno ice cubes.

Yeah, because then it'll make them take a little bit longer to to melt and dissolve into your drink and change the flavor. If you are a fast drinker, like I tend to drink my any beverage, not just cocktails but pretty quickly. So I leave the ice out because then by the time I'm done is right about the right timing.

The other thing that I like about a recipe like this is you can completely change it up, right? If you are not if you don't like to drink, if you're not an alcohol person, you can do this with just ginger ale and ice cubes. You can also switch it out and use a different juice and cranberry. But I just like the way cranberry kind of mixes in. So, I mean, keep in mind that that finish to you is not something you're sipping.

A lot of you kind of want your last sip or two to have that little bite of jalapeno, but not too much. So that is my what's your poison for this time? And I'm just going to call it secret identity.

Or maybe we should call it the Esther Carlson. I think I like that. I kind of like that.

I kind of like we're going to call it the Esther Carlson. Please don't use it to make anybody go into a stupor so you can do away with that. Oh, my gosh. Don't restrict not only drink responsibly, but serve responsibly.

You know, I know there's like an element of surprise people enjoy, but I like to let people know what they're in for.

So we hope that you are in for a few more episodes about poisoners. We have a few more coming, so you can absolutely join us here next week. If you haven't subscribed yet. Absolutely. Do that on the I Heart radio app, the Apple podcasts, wherever it is you listen.

Criminality is a production of Shadowland Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio for more podcasts from Shandley and audio. Please visit the Ihara radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.