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We've talked about a lot over the course of the last couple of years with you and, you know, we're sitting here almost four years later, I'm curious from your standpoint, as this case continues on, what is your biggest fear? The fear is that eventually the rest of America will get and we'll stop looking and even, God forbid, the next case happens in the worst case scenario happens to somebody else because we didn't get him in time. That's always that always weighs heavily on us.


We hope to get this done and get him off the street so that this doesn't ever happen to anybody else. Thirty days of frustration where I feel like marching myself down here and be like, OK, guys, so what are we doing today? Like, what exactly are we doing today? What are we doing next?


It's been four years since Abigail Williams and Liberty German were murdered in the woods outside of Delfi, India.


Abby and Libby's killer still at large, and it doesn't look like we're any closer to an arrest than we were the last time we gathered on this podcast, that was almost a year ago. Since our last chapter, though, we've continued digging, talking to the people directly involved in the investigation, trying to find any new information that will help fill in the puzzle, and we found some.


In this update, we'll share those new pieces about the crime scene, about the video, about the state of the investigation and hopefully bring us all one step closer to understanding what happened and why.


The sheriff's office and community members continue to look for two missing girls bodies were found along the edge of Deer Creek, about a mile east of Delfi, not far from Moonen High Bridge where the girls were last seen. We are investigating this as a crime scene. We suspect foul play.


It's amazing that we have a video. We have a still photograph, we have sound and we don't know who this person was. There a signature in this crime? I'd say at least three to the killer who may be in this room. We believe you are hiding in plain sight. We likely have interviewed you. We know that this is about power to you and you want to know what we know.


But one day you will have. We missed something here.


I know this is down the hill, the Delfi murders.


Hey, everybody drew IDN here for years, that's where we are. Forty eight months since Abby and Libby were killed and since you last heard from us, the world is a lot different for everybody. But here's what hasn't changed. The ongoing search for Abby and Libby's killer. Law enforcement's airtight lid on just about all details and the deep under the skin anxiety of an entire town. Our focus on this crime didn't end with the last episode. Barbara McDonald, Dan Semenovich and I have kept our wheels turning, asking questions, exploring possibilities.


Barb and I have made several trips back to Delphi to try and get something, anything out of investigators. And as you'll hear over the course of this episode, we've actually uncovered a few new pieces of this puzzle. Also, Barb was able to access the actual crime scene, the place where Abby and Libby were found. And that's one of the things you'll see in Helen's two night television event, which starts Sunday, February 14th at 10:00 p.m. Eastern.


But we made sure in one of those trips to connect with the man who ended our last chapter, the sheriff of Carroll County, Tobel Lisanby. Barb took him down to Deer Creek below the bridge and just around the bend from where searchers located the girl's bodies. They had a wide ranging conversation and frankly, he went places that he hasn't gone with us before about evidence, about the video.


And interestingly enough, about Regrette, there is a lot of evidence in this case. Is that a fair statement? From what I know, yes. Back in April, you mentioned perhaps smudged fingerprint. Is that a piece of evidence? There were some fingerprints collected. Yeah. So, I mean, but again, practically every crime scene got fingerprints for the most part, unless they're, you know, wearing gloves or something.


Do you know if those fingerprints belong to the killer? That I do not know.


And same with DNA. You have DNA? Yes. Do you have his DNA? And we don't know where. We haven't. No one's charged. No one's jail dead.


How frustrating is that? It is. It is it is very frustrating. But I'm a patient man by nature. And I know that doesn't provide much relief for family and friends. But, you know, again, I feel like justice will prevail.


Could you release more of the video? I suppose? And that's been obviously brought up a number of times through the last four years, almost four. I'm not real sure what from what I know, what advantage it would have at this point. It just I think people anticipate that there's something, if you will, earth shattering that's going to jump out at him to go, hey, it's Fonzo at all of you guys watching it every couple of weeks.


Haven't noticed yet. Right. So I honestly, I don't think at this point, Barbara, I would it would make a huge difference in providing any additional.


Is there more audio from him on the tape than what's been released? Not that I am aware of. So he says guys down the hall and those are the only words spoken by him. Right. How helpful has that video been?


I know there are still items within that video that are there are still being studied and considered. And so I still consider the positive key piece of evidence that eventually will be used in the courtroom. I'm still still confident that we will receive that. Justice is just this one. We've had to be very, very detailed with as far as digging into it to find out what's the connection there?


How often do you go back and watch it? Have you done that at all?


I have on average any more, I would say at least once every two weeks, sometimes sooner. As you well know, I have still images posted in my office. I still have those there as a reminder that we still have this and we've got to continue to be vigilant and continuing to pursue this. What about cause of death?


How how they were killed? Is that something that could be released?


I think, again, circling back around to what I said earlier, as far as saving certain things for the courtroom, because obviously, as far as we know, there's only one individual that knows how that happened or what happened there. And so if we if we shared that granted, you know. That individual's going to know that that we are correct when we say that, but but again, that's that's another piece of the bigger picture that we want to keep hold off for now.


And that wouldn't really help an outsider to know whatever that is. No, it wouldn't help an outsider to. You're right, John Doe right now, it's just it's it's not anything that's going to create anything new for anyone to say that.


Do you have regrets about anything that you've done or not done in this case up to this point?


I think we all do. Personally, for me. Yes. You know, there were you know, there were some some avenues we looked at and decided and one of those was actually bringing in a canine bloodhound unit to and we actually honestly, we had them on their way. They were coming from Missouri. And once the girls were located, then, you know, we contacted those representatives and told them, OK, respectfully, we don't we don't need you any longer because we've located them.


I mean, all in all, I mean, from a positive angle, I feel like we've we've had practically every known, whether it's local, state or federal law enforcement agency, come alongside of us and say, hey, what can we do to help resource wise? I guess my point is, resource wise, we have the resources and still do have the resources available to us to come on board. The one thing that still and I'm not real sure if they could have done anything else, even though we locate the girls with the one thing we could have potentially maybe had the canines contained here and there could have been other things they could have played a role in.


But maybe tracking. Right. Right. Yeah. Other than that, I you know, I'm human and I make mistakes and I'll continue to make them. I don't know what else they can be brought up. Do you know for certain which way this killer left? I guess the way I'll respond to that is there is speculation, but nothing factual developed at this point.


Is there anything that I haven't asked you that you want to say? You want people to know we're going to keep at it? You know, again, I still circle back around to I still believe in justice and I still believe in God winning over evil. And I still have my my strong faith personally for me. And that's still vitally important for me. And so one way or the other, I'm I still have that. I still have some confidence about us that we will get justice for Abby and Libby.


You might remember back in Chapter five of our podcast, we talked with a man by the name of Robert Ives, he was the prosecutor in Carroll County at the time of the murders, is the one who told us about the signatures that were found at the crime scene. Just as a reminder, he told us that there were at least three of them and that they were, quote, odd.


It's probably not what you would imagine where people think that I'm talking about. It's probably not.


He believes that if this person kills again, some of those signatures will be at that crime scene to Rob retired not long after the murders and McLelland took over as the new prosecutor of Carroll County. He's young, personable, sharp dresser. He's made for TV. And he's a local guy who went away to school at Indiana University before returning home to become a prosecutor. And now he's the man responsible for securing a prosecution in the state's most high profile unsolved case.


We've tried to talk with him before, but he's never returned our calls or our emails, and he rarely speaks to anyone about this case. But on our last trip, we met him on the corner, literally on Main Street, where he agreed to an interview with Barbe the next day. Here's that conversation. We're approaching the four year mark in this case, where does the case stand today? It's still an open case. It's very active. We have full time investigators working on it every day.


And so for us and for my office and for the county, frankly, it's not a closed case. It's still a very open case, something that I work on every week, if not every day. And again, we have full time investigators that work on it every day. So there's things still happening behind the scenes investigative lead. Absolutely. We still have tips coming in and we investigate those tips. We follow where those tips lead us. We're still doing search warrants, still doing everything you would do in an active case.


There are a lot of people who follow this case, massive interest, people around the world, Facebook groups, people who think they can help solve it, who say you should be releasing more information. Why don't you do that? Because from the prosecutor's standpoint, we have to maintain the integrity of the case. And if we do that, it jeopardizes that integrity. And our goal, from my point of view, is to solve the case. And so if I've got to hold back a little bit information to help solve the case, that's what I'm going to do and that's why we do it.


So how how would releasing, say, the cause of death or the rest of the video, how could that impact your investigation? That's a difficult question to answer, but it just could. And that's about the best way I can answer it. We need to make sure that we keep those things close to our vest at this point. And so there's just some strategies in there and there's other things in there that it's just important for us to do that right now.


But when this gets to a prosecution, all of that becomes public. When the case gets is over, all of that stuff will become public. And obviously the public's allowed in the courtroom so anyone can sit in on the trial. But again, everyone is innocent until proven guilty. So just because we arrest somebody doesn't mean they're automatically guilty. We have to go through the criminal justice process. And that's important, I believe, in this process. So everyone is innocent until proven guilty.


So the evidence will come out as it does in trial. And then after the case is closed, of course, all that evidence will be released. Are you confident that this will go to prosecution? Yes. If I wasn't confident, I wouldn't spend so much time on the case. And so I'm very confident that we're going to catch the person or people. And that's just going to come the prosecution and we're going to get justice for Abby and Libby.


Just continue to call in tips. If you see something, say something. I know that's kind of a cliche saying, but it stands true, you know, and don't discount a tip because you think it's not important or it's silly. Let us do that. Let us at least track it down and find out where it leads, because any little piece could be the piece of that puzzle that we need to tie everything together. And so I would encourage people to continue to call in, not do the side by side, but call in and give the the things that make a good tip, a good tip, a person age where they live, phone number, if they drive a vehicle description of the vehicle, their connection to Delphi, and then why you think they're involved in this case.


And then if you want to not remain anonymous, leave your name, number and email address some way. We can get a hold of you in case we need a follow up interview. It's entirely possible that somebody who might have that tip could be fearful. They could have a personal relationship with the killer and be afraid they can remain anonymous. Absolutely. We have a hotline. We have an email address. They can remain completely anonymous and we don't have a problem with that.


We understand there may be that person out. There may be the person we're looking for, maybe a close family member or relative or whatnot. And that's why we have anonymous tips. And so you can absolutely do that. Has this case gotten personal for you?


Well, I mean, I think it's personal to everybody. So I think the answer is yes. I mean, it's important. You know, this is our my hometown, my home county. The family of the victims are from here. Grew up and raised you the victims grew up and raised here. The investigators working on the case grew up and were raised here. And so, you know, it's personal to all of us. So, you know, this is typically a safe community, you know, and this is a tragedy that happened.


And it just lingers on our on everybody's backs. And so, yeah, I think it's personal to everybody. It's been four years since the murders and many people looking from the outside in would describe this investigation as cold. But Nick McClelland's claims that they're continuously serving warrants and that he has full time investigators on the case daily, that actually tells a different story. And if you take the new information we've learned in the past few months, DNA and fingerprints at the crime scene, more video on Libby's phone.


Perhaps it instills some confidence that the blank spots maybe aren't so blank. And if there isn't any additional audio from the killer beyond the words we've already heard, what does that tell us about the moments between that first encounter on the bridge and where the girls were found?


We all know by now that the pieces that make up the puzzle can fit together in any number of ways. You can see and hear some of those pieces on February 14th at 10:00 p.m. Eastern on HLN.


It's the first of the network's two night event focused on exploring this case and bringing this podcast to television.


You'll see more of that interview with Sheriff Lisanby, Nick McClelland. And here's some audio from the early hours of this case that's gone largely unheard. And after the TV special is aired and the fourth anniversary of Abian, Libby's murder has passed. You can bet that our team, Barb and myself, will keep churning and pushing, hoping that one day we'll get to the truth. Who did this? What the hell happened out there? Can this ever be solved by.


Well, thanks for listening. Down the Hill is written and produced by Dan Semenovich, Barbara McDonald and myself, Andrew with editorial oversight from Brian Bell and a special thanks to law enforcement and the people of Delfi, Indiana, for their continued cooperation. For more information on this case, visit our website at Down the Hill podcast.