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Down the Hill podcast, dotcom sketch is not a photograph. A sketches of what we think is a likely rendition composite of a human being is not a photograph. I can look at both of them both together. I can see them. I can see them both together. And that's what I think this person probably looks like. It's not a photograph. Now, remember, we have a photograph of the neck down. That's where somebody knows who this is.

I always think about that now with me, with my own family or with other people. You think doing it somebody if you if you if we put a bag on your head, somebody knows whose body that is. And we have his voice and we have his stride. Never in my lifetime did he have all three. And we still this is this monster mystery. I'm Andrew IDN and I'm Barbara McDonald and our previous chapters, we focused on the first few months of the investigation and learned about the what and the where and to a certain extent, the who and how.

Starting now, we move into a new era of this story. This one is all about that. Who it's late June twenty seventeen. And there has been no arrest in the killings of Libby German and Abby Williams.

That's crazy. I mean, Doug Carter even said at the top of the show there's a video with audio of the suspect at this point.

There's also global media attention, dedicated Internet sleuths and an almost 250000 dollar reward. All that has added up to seemingly nothing.

From this point on, we start moving through time at a much faster rate. And that starts with something police have been sitting on, something that will send this case and the people who follow it into pure madness.

Police are also examining this Snapchat photo, it was taken just before both girls disappeared. I made the announcement, but the girls have been found and that was not to a good end.

We are investigating this as a crime scene. We suspect foul play.

Law enforcement is saying that one of the girls actually took video on her iPhone. They say it was right before she was murdered. It's amazing that we have a video. We have a still photograph. We have sound. We don't know who this person is. It could be half of the white males in Carroll County to the killer who may be in this room. We likely have interviewed you. We know that this is about power to you. And you want to know what we know.

One day you will know this is down the hill, the Delfi murders.

Part one, gas stations and grocery stores. Looking at everybody and thinking about that sketch in your head, I think all of us here have that first drawing burned into our minds. And so anywhere you go, you're always thinking about, OK, could that be that person?

Five months after this horrible crime, we finally see the face of the man police are looking for. A composite sketch was released in mid-July without much fanfare. They sent it out via press release. And this is really where the rampant speculation picks up about who may have done this. Here's Sergeant Kim Riley. Remember, he's the spokesperson for the Indiana State Police.

We feel this is very important because it actually gives a better view of the person in the picture that you see down below. It shows a little more facial features, gives you a little more information on what we're looking at, who the suspect might be. And that's why we feel it is a very important that this picture is out there at this time. When he says a better view of the person you see down below physically when he was speaking to the media, the picture on the floor beneath the sketch was the picture of the man on the bridge.

Right. So they are linking the man on the bridge to this sketch and obvious connection. Yes. So now that you have the context of this release, let's talk about what the sketch actually looks like, because it's detailed. It is. It's pretty detailed. We heard Superintendent Carter say at the beginning of this chapter that a sketch is not a photograph, but the sketch kind of looks like a photograph. It's not in color. But you see a white man who appears to be in his 40s or maybe a little bit older.

He's wearing a cap that has been described as, what, a newsboy cap or even perhaps a Greek fishing cap? Yeah, one of those kind of flatter hats. Yeah. And he's got some scruffy hair that sticks out underneath that cap. He's also got a goatee. He's not clean shaven. He's wearing what appears to be a brown hoodie and he looks like he has darker eyes.

Do we know as far as the sketch is concerned how this sketch came to be?

They say that it came from information, from tips that they had received and from people who were in the area of the bridge around the time the girls were there. So they don't actually call them witnesses, but it certainly sounds like that's what we're dealing with here.

So this sketch, what it did was, as you mentioned, set off a flurry of speculation, flurry of conversation. And, you know, at the center of all this, you still have two families who are also looking at the sketch, trying to figure out what it means.

It was really interesting to see a face with the bodies that we had.

You probably recognize Kelsey Germanies voice. She's Libbey sister.

We knew what his walk kind of looked like and what he looked like physically, but we didn't know what his face looked like. And so putting a face with it was very eye opening. It made it really real and it made it so that there was a person we had to look for rather than a voice that we had to look for.

Did you recognize the face? I didn't recognize it, although I do think there are a lot of similarities in them in the face. It did look a lot familiar, a lot of the characteristics and it you can see them in half the people you walk by down the street.

So when I look at it, I'm like, oh, it could be this person or it could be that person, but really it could be anybody. So that was kind of something that I was struggling with, trying to figure out who this person could be and why it looked familiar to me.

Remember Pastor Todd Wlad, he leads Delphi's United Methodist Church, I'm not with the sketch. Thought, Oh, that could be. The other thing is the reality is it could be half of the white males in Carroll County. And so I don't look at it had this sense of dread or I'll say, oh, here's who it is. But there's the also the acknowledgement that you look around and that that's half the white males in Carroll County of a certain age that could look that way.

Diane Erskin, Abby Williams grandmother, looks at the face in the sketch and tries really, really tries to make some sense of what happened out there.

And you study that face and you look at the sketch and you try to think about how old they are and and, you know, try to make it try to make some connection. You know, what's the first lesson you learn in science? For every action, there's an equal opposite reaction. So that's our I think our in our makeup as human beings, we're trying to justify to rationalize. Well, this happened. So this what is the cause?

What's what's over here? What's the action that caused? Well, that doesn't work with evil. It just doesn't there is no justification. There is no rationalization for this act. You know, I don't know what the motivation is.

If there even was a motivation, I.

I don't know, because it's evil. It's and it's deceiving and it's comes to kill and steal and destroy. And so there's just it's not a it's not a mindset that we have. But as humans, we want to know what caused that. Do you think he's local? I, I don't I honestly do not have an opinion about that.

It's hard enough to go to the gas station in the grocery store and and drive down the road and you see some walking by the road and look at them and and wonder.

But anywhere in wonder, I don't I honestly, I don't have a thought that they are or they are not. Honestly, I really don't.

For Lady Maudy, remember, she's Libby's cousin. The release of the sketch for the first time made this killer not just a killer, but a person, a person that might live down the street from her.

So when the sketch is the first sketch came out, did you recognize that face? No. Still to this day, I'm feeling OK right here, still to this day, it makes me sick to my stomach.

I get a knot in my throat when I hear the voice or see the picture or I just I don't know why.

I just that's what happens in the face of evil. Yeah.

The the first four or five months, I had to have my husband walk me to the car every morning. I wouldn't go outside when it was dark outside just in fear. But in the back of my mind, I don't think it would happen at night.

This was something that happened during the day, but I was just still scared.

It's changed a lot of people here, not only in our family circle, but the whole town.

They were in fear this would never happen here. I mean, there's three stoplights in town, but it did. So now we all have changed, not just one person. We have all changed for Becky, Patty Libby's grandmother.

She had for the first time someone to look for in town, a real, actual live face.

There's been times that you see somebody that just. Looks a lot like that sketch, and I can't stop myself, Tara and I were at a stoplight one time and both of us and the person felt uncomfortable and I mean, I knew felt it a staring so hard that they turned and looked at us, but we couldn't help. You can't help yourself. You stare, you look, you ski in a room, you ski anywhere you are. You go to a restaurant, you're sitting there and you're looking while you're carrying on your conversation, you're looking at work and we're on the road.

You look, I keep thinking I you know what? I have a job that I'm out and about a lot. And you think, oh, if only if only I could see him. What would you do? Going to be a tough one. Well, I want to make sure we get the right person, so I definitely call nine one one and I would not be Pellom. I really thought it was the person I'd be calling 911 on.

Sheriff Tom Lisanby, has anybody walked into your office to say, I look like the sketch, I want to clear my name, here's my DNA?

Yes, that has occurred a lot. I'd say less than five times that. I remember now that not often, but, yeah, it has to happen.

And by the same token, have there been people that you've gone to check out and said, give us some DNA in there, like I'll pass through this without that.

And then that's, you know, where are our investigators? Pursue a search warrant through our prosecutor and pursue it that way legally? So is there anybody want a DNA from that? You haven't gotten it. No one comes to mind. Eventually, we do. You know, this is something that you do not see normally in murder cases, people volunteering their DNA, you know, if if you kind of look like that sketch and you're in this small town, I can see the appeal of wanting the sheriff to say, no, no, no, I already checked him out and we're good.

But one of the problems with this case also is there is no public list anywhere of people who have been cleared. So those people who walked in and said, clear me. We don't necessarily know who they are, and that leaves local conjecture, which becomes kind of the gasoline on the fire, as it were, of this case and the rumor mill, you know, the sketch is released to help find the killer and help this case. It's actually having an adverse effect.

Yeah, it actually complicates things. And that's still kind of an issue today. This is also the beginning of a new phase of this story where the finger pointing, the accusations against anybody who even resembles that sketch or doesn't or doesn't really takes off and becomes problematic.

Part two sketches aren't photos tying us up on false leads and innuendos is not something we want. We want actual facts. We want information that's going to help us not hurt somebody else's pride or their dignity or embarrass a family because you think he's the killer. Let us make that decision. That's what we're here for. Barb, we're going to hear a lot about side by sides, which what those are will come into focus here shortly, but essentially the sketch next to some random photo from somebody in town.

Yeah, this is where people start taking this sketch that's been released and posting it on social media to Facebook, to Reddit, to Twitter, wherever blogs, you know, their own private blog, every corner of the basically everywhere. And what they're doing is going through people's Facebook profiles and finding photos of people who kind of look like the sketch and then going, look here, this man lives in Delfi or doesn't, and he looks like the sketch. So you have random people being picked by other random people as a possible suspect.

This is something police do not want to see happen. The investigators say it over and over. Please don't do this. Please don't send them to us. What the sketches are for is people who know this person, for them to start taking the things that they know, maybe the things that don't make sense about the person's story for where they were the day this happened. Maybe there's some other things that aren't making sense. And then the sketch comes out and they go, Gosh.

That kind of looks like my brother or my boss or my neighbor or whoever it is, and a lot of this speculation, as you might imagine, lives on Facebook.

And we spoke with a woman by the name of Jannika Combes, who is a moderator of one of these Facebook groups that is dedicated to this case because it's such a big part of this story. We thought it was important to talk to her and kind of get some perspective on what these groups are doing, how they're helping or hurting the case, the discussion, how they kind of keep the discussion on the road. And Jessica is tasked with that. And she lives in Indiana, not far from Delphi, has gotten to know some of the people involved in this story.

And as moderator, one of her roles is to make the rules for the groups that she moderate. And one of the things that's important to her is to not do side by side, side by side.

That's the number one rule in almost every group. Some of them, they allow it because they like the drama that it brings, but basically of law enforcement. I've said not to do it. Then we try not to do that. So side by side, if you're going to basically come up with a theory, let people know it's your theory. You know, put in my opinion or this is what I believe, don't put information out as a fact unless, you know, it's a fact that you can back it up.

The madness of rampant speculation continues on Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, on YouTube, everywhere, really. And by now, you understand what we mean when we call this case an inkblot. I see what I see. Barb sees what she sees and you see what you see. And it's like that for everyone. For some, there are weird shapes forming in that ink. Jannika Combs has heard some weird stuff.

What are some of the crazy theories that you've heard in these groups? Oh, my goodness.

There's 15 Amish people under the bridge. There's an average guy is carrying a puppy in his jacket. Some of the theories are that it's local law enforcement out there and they're trying to cover up their own crimes and or somebody else's family and they're trying to cover up for them. So if our people are simply guessing at what the girls lives like or like prior, nobody in those groups, not nobody, but majority of the people in those groups didn't know the girls.

Right. They still don't know them. They know what they've been told, what they see. They don't really know how those girls were. And a lot of stuff comes from. I guess trying to guess and assume that they might have been a bad kid or they might have done something, you know, not necessarily to deserve it, but to cause the actions of Bridgegate to move forward. Right. So they sort of brought it on themselves by by playing with fire, so to speak, right?

Yeah. A lot of the groups, it's in all of the groups, but it's basically a handful of people that want to continually blame the family, continually bring up backgrounds in the past and try to link everything together. Not everything is a conspiracy. Not everything can be linked.

Sometimes people just do bad things, though, side by sides. For Doug Carter, the message is help, don't hurt.

I got several this morning. And, you know, we're encouraging people not to side by side because remember, you're talking about somebody you know here. We've had a lot of people that have been targeted in this in really has complicated their lives. So we encourage people to be really, really careful doing side by side and give us the name, give us the address, give us your thought. But don't do it side by side with a living human being.

It makes sense. And keep in mind that that sketch is not a photograph. It's a rendition of an approximate view. It is not a digital photograph.

We also talked to a sketch artist, not one here in your state, who said sketches really aren't for people who don't know the person right there for people who do. Oh, I love that. That's so true. Yes, that's so true. That's so true.

My problem is when you take somebody's picture and put it next to the drawing we had and say, this is the guy and you have no idea who this person is, or even if you do, can you tie that person to Delfi? Here's Sergeant Kim Riley again. If you can't, why are you even trying to make something out of nothing? You want to be the big star of the show, so to speak. That's not what police work is all about.

It embarrasses that person for one, especially if you put a name with it the next morning. How would you like to have about six phone calls? Hey. Hey, Kim Riley, I understand you're the murderer of the two girls. If you look at the Facebook, you know, I don't want to be getting those, you know, those phone calls. And if it really is the killer, wouldn't that perhaps tip him off that people are on to him on the behavior?

Yes, he's going to change his behavior. He's going to change his looks. He's going to excuse the expression get out of Dodge. You know, he's not going to hang around, tell us, send out information to us, don't send it in and put it on Facebook or put on Facebook and then decide to send it to us because we're not we look at Facebook, but we don't that's not where we get our information. We get our information from the tip line and from the emails.

And preferably we prefer the emails. It's the easiest way to do it. And that's way, way we want it, because we don't have time to go on and look at every Facebook page. And we and most people don't have that much time. And, you know, when you're you just because we're dealing with this case doesn't mean there's not five or ten or fifteen other cases we're dealing with.

Also, this is also where we begin to see the family members get caught up in this same cycle of these side by sides and people taking Facebook images of them and saying, oh, this one looks like the sketch or oh, that one looks like the sketch. And that even caught up with Sadie Maudy. Here's what she has to say about that.

Some of them think they could actually solve this.

Can you insert a nice girl there? Yeah. Ten people on their Facebook investigating. That's what we like to follow. But they don't have legal authority to do anything, so I don't understand why they think they can solve it. Somebody call the tip on. You know, my husband and my husband is like a hundred and thirty five pounds like no.

And we had a police officer sit down at my kitchen table and asked my husband many, many, many questions. And it was hurtful. But we were open and tell him, no, this is where we were. This is what we were doing because we had no shame tied, because we knew what we were doing and we would never want to do anything like that to someone, especially someone in my family, of all things. The cop was like, I don't know why this tip was called in, but we have to follow up through this.

So we're just going to ask you these questions. And if you're I might be back. If something doesn't check out and everything checked out, fine.

My husband work that day, so I'm not even sure of Tobe Lisanby was immune from the accusations.

My name's been brought up three times in the whole process. You know, what was the sheriff doing that day? Whether it's a personal issue that someone has against me or I don't know where, that you know, where those three separate times where that came from. But as with everyone else and I you know, again, kudos to our investigators because they came to me and hey, sheriff, I tell you this, but we've got to check you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so like everyone else, you know, that's exactly what they did. I mean, they checked into the various individuals in our community and said, OK, you know what? Where were you basically during this time period of February 13, 2017, it seems like no one in Delfi is immune from being thrown into the conversation.

And for Abby and Libby's friend Erika Gibson and her mom, Amy, it's starting to wear thin.

People talk without knowing anything. People just want their five seconds of fame, and that's all it comes down to. You know, they want to throw out whatever they can to to get their name out there, regardless if it's true, regardless of who it hurts. They just they're they're selfish. They don't care about Abby and Libby. Their interest is just to be the one that caught the killer and to get that money. I mean, that's all it comes down to.

They don't have they don't care all about Delphi. They don't care about the families. You know, they just they all bash everybody in Delphi, like every person in Delphi is this or Delphi people are this. And so we know we're not that. You know, we come from a good town. Delphi is not bad. You know, we've never had violence like this. I've grown up here my whole life. You know, we've never had anything like this happen before.

And and, you know, everybody, you know, getting on law enforcement, saying that they, you know, that they're corrupt and and they know what happened and all that stuff. We don't believe that the people that live here, we trust in our law enforcement, which, you know, we trust that they're doing everything they can. This doesn't happen here. They didn't know what was happening. You know, like I would never blame them for for anything.

Mike and Becky, Patty are united in this case on every front except one how to deal with the online community. Mike says he and his wife in 30 years of marriage rarely disagree, but through all the pain and grief, this is the only thing they argue about.

It doesn't bother me. It really doesn't, because I know the truth is on my side. People can speculate and throw out all kinds of stuff and innuendoes and rumors. It's not going to change the facts.

And I remember I live in a world of facts and data while I work for my family and everybody else to be able to see, you know, the speculation that people put out there. It really doesn't. And even between the wife and I, so I know what time she says. I have no idea because it doesn't it's not the truth that people out there that look at this as as as. And if they don't look at it like as a case or I don't know how to say it for sure, but if they would take all that energy that they spend and put it in a positive light, they could truly possibly help the situation.

But, you know, and that's what I would ask people to stop and think before you post, before you do things. Is this really going to help? How can I help the situation make it better, not worse, because all the you know, the vile stuff that's been said about, you know, myself and my family doesn't that isn't providing any positivity towards getting to a resolution here. And as for some of the other things, I just think there's malicious people out there, too much time on their hands.

The only thing that worries me is that it's not just us, but there's other people that that they can potentially ruin their lives. You know, these people have done nothing. These are innocent people and there's only one guilty person. So all of these pictures and all these people that they're sharing, you know, they're all innocent. Maybe, maybe one.

Becky, I can't help but notice, you know, you've obviously both suffered unspeakable loss, but it's this thing or this part of the story about this kind of dread of social media. It's the first time I've seen you visibly angry. I get very angry. There's been so many lies, not rumors, lies brought out. There's been things, private things that have been put out there that should never have been put out there. They have invaded things that they should have never invaded.

This isn't entertainment. This is our lives. So, yeah, I get very angry because they they dirty Libby's memory. It's pretty tough to hear Becky, Patty say this isn't entertainment, these are our lives, any story like I mean, online trolls are everywhere, everywhere, but we're still kind of taken aback that people have to deal with that.

And some of the people who are behaving like trolls towards the family are people who do think that they're helping try to solve the case. It's a weird yeah, it's a lot of drama.

Part three, a world of facts and data we don't need, you know, 20 tips on on me. I mean, I'm my name's been mentioned now, which they've been at. It took a while, but finally somebody put my name in there. But I mean, think about I mean, we got to think here, folks. We got to realize that putting somebody's picture on on Facebook or or Twitter or wherever you're putting it. Does not solve a crime.

Let's talk about tips, obviously, they're an important part of this story, and investigators always say they're just one away from solving this case while they're asking the public for help.

The stream of side by side theories and speculation resulted in a slew of new tips, tens of thousands, actually. And right now, as you're listening to this, the number continues to grow. Police tell us they look at every tip that comes in. Now, obviously, there are a lot of duplicates and some are easily thrown out, but each one is processed. That takes resources, that takes money, and that takes people.

Sergeant Kim Riley, that's the information we were getting people with or ex-wives, ex husband's, you know, ex lovers. We were getting information on them. Just because you don't like him doesn't mean that they killed those two girls. Why do you think people do that? Just to cause a hassle for them? I mean, because if we get a tip on you, we're going to have to check into it. I mean, we don't know you know, we don't know where you were at that day.

We don't know what you were doing. So we're going to we're going to send somebody out or call a department in the area, because some of these tips were coming from all over the country, all over the world. And we had to have people we weren't going to transport guys all over the country to do. We just have to call the locals departments in the area, sheriff's department or maybe even the FBI had to send out somebody. So it was it was tying up time and and a lot of precious time that we really didn't have.

And not just your department right over. Right. I hadn't really thought about that. So if somebody sent in a tip and said, Dryden is the person and you would get sued, then you would have to call the Atlanta Police Department who would then have to track down my employer. You'd have to basically vouch for if I was working that day or not. That's exactly that.

And then if you weren't if you're out running errands, then you got to go. Then we go down on you. Doctor, if we have you in Atlanta on that day, you're not going to be in Delfi. If we have you to lanta at the station or on an errand to go get something. And you were back in an hour, that's going to cover you pretty good. But let's say you called in sick that day. Now we got to go send somebody.

First of all, we send them to your work to find out if you work that day and they tell us, no, he was not there. Now we've got to send somebody to your house to talk to you. And you're going Delfi, Indiana. Where in the world is that at? And now we've wasted your time. We've wasted the investigators time here to send that information to Atlanta. To have Atlanta or the FBI or whoever wants to do it tightens up an investigator for them to check on you.

As the second anniversary of the crime approaches, investigators decided to use the occasion to try and help people help them. This is Nick McClelland. He's the district attorney in Carroll County and at the time, newly elected.

We have put up today a poster here. That's to my left. Now, this is what the unified command believes makes a good tip. That doesn't mean if you don't have all this information that you don't call in the tip, even if you don't have all this, continue to call that tip in, let investigators take that tip and let them track down what they can from that tip. So no tip is bad or irrelevant or unusable. Again, information is our main weapon here.

Here's what we do know.

Thirty eight thousand tips is not discouraging them. But he listed what is a good tip, what the connection is to Delfi. Baby, if you have a name, if you know where they live. But he is thanking everyone for what they're doing. And if you see something, say something. Something that stood out to me when I was there February 12, 19, a week before the second anniversary was the crime scene, the bridge. I was standing there where something happened to these two young girls, Abbie and Libby, and to be there and look around and think, what is it?

What did they go through? What happened?

I'm here and I'm feeling that we're back here in the writers room at CNN Center and we are joined by HLN Susan Hendricks. And Barb, I know you and Susan did a lot of the reporting for the network in the you know, in the early days of its coverage on this case. And so I wanted to ask you both. And Susan, we'll start with you. Can you tell us a little bit about your early impressions of this story, kind of when it crossed your radar and when you kind of jumped on the case?

When I heard Susan, you're going to Delfi, I took a moment to remember what case this was and then it clicked. I thought about Libby hitting record on her cell phone. Then it came back to me what case? This was two young girls in Delfi murdered, unsolved. And I'm going with Barbara and let's just say Barbara and I got to know each other very well right away. You're bonded in this small town. You meet the families, you see where this horrific crime took place and you feel completely different.

The family was very open, very welcoming. And it was feelings that I've never felt covering a story before because you felt you like these people, you they were gracious, then you see where this took place and they tell their stories and it's unsolved. So it's a combination of so many feelings in the small town of Delfi.

Barb, when you were with Susan, I know that when you grab a bag and go jump on a case or story or whatever, but I just. But in terms of the actual story, what was what was that early kind of feeling like in town?

We encountered a lot of really wonderful people who wanted to share the story and were appreciative of media attention to get the facts of the case out there, knowing that they needed help to get this solved. And sort of our early entry into the story was via Kelsey German Lévy sister in early twenty nineteen. She had really sort of taken off with her social media advocacy for this case, and that's what got my attention and saying maybe we should go and meet these people and see if we could use our platform to give them some help in getting awareness.

And so that's what we did. And we spent just a couple of days on the ground. It was very cold. But the graciousness of everyone we encountered, you know, we sat at the same table where Libby sat with her family and had meals. Becky prepared a hot lunch for us, which was really wonderful because I think that was the only meal we had that day. We were running around so much. But you go there and you you walk alongside these families, you can't help but pick up this story and it becomes part of your heart, too.

You can't let it go. You guys were there two years after the murder. Was there a feeling of optimism or, you know, positivity about an arrest or any kind of resolution?

When we were at Libby's home and Becky made us that meal, I was thinking, as Barbara mentioned, in that kitchen, picturing Libby sitting around the table, that was her home. She was there. They were very open talking about what type of girl Libby was, what Abby was like, not much talk about an arrest or the sketch was mentioned in the kitchen in Libby's home walk into Tobe Leazenby's office. The sheriff and I see the sketch and I see the person who did this, at least a sketch of him.

And I see that it's torn and it's ripped a little. And I'm looking around his office and that's when it hit me that, wow, this is almost two years to the day and this is not solved. And this is a small town and this guy is still out there and this case is still front and center. I mean, he's got the pictures up in his office. Everywhere you go in town, there's pictures of the girls or the sketch of the suspect with the information about how to call in a tip.

And Barb, that's when you got a text message.

I did one afternoon here at work, got a text message from one of my sources saying, I can't tell you why, but you need to be in Delfi on Monday. It was Easter weekend. And Susan and I immediately booked our airfare and I got a text from Barbara saying, we're going back to Delphi. And I thought. So soon after this is big, this is huge, I had no idea, though, just how big it would be and what a sharp turn this case would take.

And, you know, Barb and I have used the words big, big moment, sharp turn.

We've used them multiple times in this case, but there is none that is perhaps bigger or sharper of a turn than the one that occurred two months later directly to the killer who may be in this room.

We believe you are hiding in plain sight. For more than two years, you never thought we would shift gears to a different investigative strategy, but we have. In our next chapter, there's a new direction, a totally new direction. Down the Hill is written and produced by Barbara McDonald, Dan Semenovich and me, and writing with original music and scoring by Chevaux Sur and production support from associate producers Michael Dudley and Caitlin Chassy. Sherry Seldes is our senior production manager, if you want to see the people, places and things we've been talking about, visit our website down the Hill podcast Dotcom.

Brian Bell is HLN senior director of programming and Tyler Moody is the vice president of the Warner Media Podcast Network, a special thanks to the people of Delphi and the members of law enforcement who are in charge of solving this crime.

And most important of all, a big thanks to you. We appreciate you listening.