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[00:00:04]

To get a look at the people in places we're talking about in this show and to find out how you can call or email in a tip, visit our website. Down the Hill podcast, Dotcom. You don't come out here too terribly often, but, you know, looking through these trees and kind of getting an idea of where everything is, what do you see when you look out there?

[00:00:26]

You know, again, for not only myself, but several in the community, I consider this hallowed ground, so to say, and the memories more so the positive memories of, you know, of Abbie and Libby and what they had to offer in both their past and what they were looking to offer our community.

[00:00:47]

This is the first year that there is not a press conference on the anniversary. The anniversary is this week. Do you worry that not having a press conference sends the message that the case is now cold?

[00:01:03]

I will respond to that as I have a number of times and will continue to do so. Particularly, I fall back on the tips and information that continue to come in to us.

[00:01:13]

And if and if I recall correctly, I've commented that in our world a true cold case is where you have nothing to work on, or basically all avenues have been shut down and nothing's occurred. We are far from that. I mean, we still have a lot of things to look into following into, individuals to look into. So this. In my opinion, as sheriff, this is not a cold case, it is still a very active case.

[00:01:50]

Police are also examining this Snapchat photo, it was taken just before both girls disappeared. I made the announcement that the girls have been found and that was not to a good end.

[00:02:01]

We are investigating this as a crime scene. We suspect foul play.

[00:02:05]

Law enforcement is saying that one of the girls actually took video on her iPhone. They say it was right before she was murdered. It's amazing that we have a video. We have a still photograph. We have sound. We don't know who this person is. It could be half of the white males in Carroll County to the killer who may be in this room. We likely have interviewed you. We know that this is about power to you and you want to know what we know.

[00:02:28]

One day you will know this is down the hill, the Delfi murders.

[00:02:48]

Part one, our theory, we've spent the last eight or so hours working to give you as full of pictures we can about what we know and the people this story has affected. Now that you have the picture, now that you have the known evidence, you probably also have at least one theory about what happened on February 13th. Twenty seventeen we do, too.

[00:03:13]

Dan Drew and I have spent many hours hashing it out, arguing, finding what makes sense. Before we share it, though, we need to say that what you're about to hear is based purely on what we've learned, based on publicly available information and our own experiences and reporting. It's ours and not informed by anything more than what we've discussed with you.

[00:03:38]

Also, you know, the police don't comment on this case one way or another. And this is no exception. And before we start, we should say that for some, this could be tough to listen to. Here's what we think happened in most murders, most crimes.

[00:03:53]

It's often true that the simplest explanation is usually the right one in a crime that seems incredibly complex on its face. We tried to simplify things again. We don't know most of this, but when we ask ourselves what makes sense, this is what we come up with.

[00:04:12]

One person committed this crime and the killer's planning of it began long before 2017.

[00:04:19]

You've heard police, friends, family and people who live in Delfi all say that he must be local. If you've been out to the bridge in the area where the girls bodies were found, it's easy to see why. It's extraordinarily unlikely that you end up at any of those places unless you know where they are. They're just not easy to find through that area. The bridge, the creek, the trails, the woods. You'll find people hunting, hiking, fishing, camping, anything you might do outdoors.

[00:04:49]

We believe that the killer was and probably still is someone who is really into at least one of those activities. Maybe he grew up walking those woods or maybe he's newer and spends a lot of time outdoors. Either way, over time, it could be that a fantasy started forming in his head in that bridge. Maybe he started to see the perfect trap. And it really is after you crossed your creek, the rest of that bridge is obscured by woods on both sides.

[00:05:20]

Once you're there, there's nowhere to go except forward or backwards. The fantasy started to become a plan. He picked out a spot on the bridge, figured out how to take control and how to keep it. He worked out a route from the bridge to his intended site. And based on the fact that strange and unique signatures were later left at the crime scene, we believe he knew exactly what he wanted to do with his victims. We're told that in cases like this, killers who plan often rehearse.

[00:05:47]

So we think he did exactly that. He rehearsed his plan. He walked his route. He practices methods. He was ready. All he needed were victims and privacy.

[00:05:59]

When Kelsey dropped Abby and Libby off at the Red Gate outside the Mears farm, they walked that trail until it came to an intersection. Turn right and you'll follow a long trail ending up at the Freedom Bridge. Turn left. You'll follow a shorter trail and end up at the modern high bridge. They turned left as they approached the bridge. He would have been out there past the creek, in the trees. From that distance, he wouldn't have appeared very large and seen someone else out.

[00:06:29]

There wasn't a cause for alarm, after all.

[00:06:33]

It was a popular spot for hiking and taking pictures. Abby and Libby walked out onto the bridge and slowly made their way across the creek.

[00:06:43]

Now, this part is key to why we think he was already out there. Not long after they crossed the creek, Libby took those Snapchat photos. We know they were across the creek because in the picture of Abby, you can see it behind her and in the picture taken with the camera pointed in the other direction, Libby is clearly on the portion of the bridge that is obscured by woods. One major element missing from those pictures, though, another person we know from the video on Libby's phone that the killer caught up with them not long after those Snapchat photos were taken.

[00:07:15]

We also know that it's nearly impossible to move quickly across that bridge.

[00:07:19]

It seems unreasonable to the point of absurd that he'd be able to catch up with them and end up where he did in the video, walking in the direction he's walking, if he started his approach from either end of the bridge. So where was he? To us, it makes sense that he was very close to Libby when she took those photos between the time when she took the picture of Abby and took the picture facing the other way, Abby Libby in the killer passed each other.

[00:07:44]

It was at this point that the killer reached his decision. Were these the victims he wanted? Was there anyone else out there close enough to see or hear what he planned? Was he ready if the answer to any of these questions was not what he needed? All he. Had to do was keep walking instead after he, Abby and Libby passed each other. He turned around and made his approach. And at this point, the picture starts blurring.

[00:08:12]

We don't know enough details to be too specific. But based on what we do know, here's what we think happened next. Abby and Libby noticed him walking back in their direction. Now, if alarm bells weren't going off after he passed them, this could have started them the direction they were all walking. Now, that only led to the end of the trail. It was private property from there on out. People didn't really go there, seen a man walking away from the end of the trail back to where he presumably would have come from.

[00:08:45]

That would have seemed normal, him turning around and walking back towards the end, that would most likely have seemed unusual to them. At some point, signals were picked up, maybe instincts started to kick in and Libby started recording video on her phone. We know from Robert Ive's that the video we do have of the killer is very short and almost out of frame. So Libya was most likely trying to hide the fact that she was recording as he approached, she most likely kept recording and put the phone in her pocket.

[00:09:21]

There's no way the killer could have seen her recording and not taken the phone or otherwise attempt to destroy it. Also, we know that whatever is on that recording is mostly audio. So the phone being in her pocket would account for that. Shortly after Libby started her phone, he caught up with them. He began with a simple greeting and then regained control of them. We don't know how a gun or a knife seems likely, but you can't be sure at this point.

[00:09:52]

Trapped on the bridge, as we said, you only have one direction to go. And we know that it's virtually impossible to run on that thing. They must have been terrified. But we know they were smart kids and that they wouldn't leave each other. So they were most likely playing for time, complying and perhaps waiting for an opportunity to escape. At the end of the bridge close to where the private property begins, he ordered them to turn northward and go.

[00:10:17]

You know, what happens from here to where their bodies are found is a complete blank spot. We believe that the girls moved under their own power down the hill, through the woods and across the creek until they reached the spot where they were murdered. There were two victims and one of them, Libby, was nearly 200 pounds. Carrying them for any real distance seems unlikely. We don't know how they were killed or if it happened where they were found.

[00:10:48]

If they weren't, it could not have been too far away, given the difficulty carrying Libby would have caused. Well, we know the killer left signatures at the crime scene. We don't know what they were. Were there signatures, part of how they were killed? Are they something the killer did post-mortem and what made them so odd and strange? All we can do is speculate.

[00:11:09]

Since Abbie and Libby's bodies were discovered in an easy to miss ravine, we think the killer attempted to hide the bodies. So whether they were killed there or not, he put them there to buy himself some time to enact his escape plan.

[00:11:23]

If our scenario is right, the killer did a lot of planning, he probably did his best to account for most aspects of this crime, how to take and keep control of his victims, how to ensure you have the time and privacy he needed to do what he did. He had to have known, had to have that. Once the girls went missing, once whomever his victims were to be witnessing a massive search would begin. He would have accounted for that, too, in his post crime planning as he figured out how to get away with it.

[00:11:51]

And he's most likely out there somewhere designing his next trap. We've been asking throughout this series what the hell happened out there? That's our theory. Again, it's all based on what we've learned in our reporting and what's already out there. To us, that's what makes sense.

[00:12:16]

It just fits a big part of the what comes from an understanding of the WHO. Former profiler Mary Ellen O'Toole, she was with the FBI's behavioral analysis unit and you met her a few chapters ago, sat down with us to work through some of that.

[00:12:33]

And again, it's worth mentioning that the police won't comment on the crime scene or the killer beyond what they've already said in instances involving young female victims, where there looks like there's the presence of predatory behavior, which is basically hunting behavior beforehand. It would make sense that this was a sexually motivated crime. But but crimes generally, even very simple crimes have multiple motivations to them. So while sex may be part of the primary motivation in this crime, there's also the motivation of being the thrill and excitement of the hunt and then the killing.

[00:13:13]

So with something like this, you're probably dealing with multiple motivations. And what's interesting as well is that motivations can change actually during the scene itself. So if victims react to the offender in a way that he did not anticipate, then his motivation may be different to, OK, now I have to overcome this victim. I have to take back control from this victim. So that's why as a profiler going to the scenes or being able to observe video from the first responders that they took of the scene becomes really important because we can tell what the interaction is between the offender and the victims as the crime continues.

[00:13:56]

Based on what I've heard and what I've read is that there is planning that went into the crime.

[00:14:04]

And when you if you have an offender who decides on the crime and then picks victims who are available, then in the cases where I've seen that to be the case, it usually involves offenders who tend to be sexually sadistic, which is concerning because they are they can't they can be and they are the most violent sexual offenders that we know of. Sexually sadistic offenders are are offenders who pick the location where the crime will occur and then we'll pick victims of opportunity so they're not known to the victims.

[00:14:48]

That makes sense to me because the violence in this case seems to be instrumental violence as opposed to reactive violence. Somebody hits me in the nose and I hit them back. That's the most common type of violence. But instrumental violence is important to really understand, I think, particularly as it may be applicable in this case. And instrumental violence usually involves strangers or can involve strangers. It also is very cold blooded. It's very predatory, and it's completely devoid of any emotion on the part of the offender for the victim.

[00:15:29]

And I think in this in in this case, of course, the victims are just objects to this kind of an offender. So if we're talking about somebody that is engaged in instrumental violence and it's predatory in nature, if if in fact he did not know them, he picked the location, but not the the young victims, then he is a sexual predator. And predatory behavior is consistent with someone who has the personality disorder that used to be referred to as sociopaths.

[00:16:00]

That term was thrown out in nineteen sixty eight. And the new term we use now is someone who's psychopathic. And when you have someone who's psychopathic, if that's the case, who's also a sex offender, they can do anything they want to their victims and they feel themselves absolutely no remorse or guilt for what they do.

[00:16:23]

But I will also tell you that this offender was very comfortable out there. You could hear it in his voice, if that's his voice, if that's him walking on the bridge, he's not excited. He is not nervous. He's not from what's been displayed through the video and through the photographs, he doesn't appear to be highly impulsive, but someone that, again, is is in charge of himself and in control. Now, when he first accessed the girls, I've had cases where you've got two victims and one offender.

[00:16:58]

You've got young girls who could run away. There may have been an effort on his part or may have been something that he did to show them a weapon, to make sure that they complied with him and would not run away or would not do something else to interfere with the crime. So he would have come prepared. But control with two young victims like that would be very important. And so was his voice. Enough?

[00:17:23]

Maybe not. You described quite a bit about what kind of person might have done this. Do you have any opinion on what that person might look like in his everyday life when he's not committing to?

[00:17:36]

Actually, I do.

[00:17:38]

When you have a case like this or a case that despite the tremendous effort on the part of the detectives and the law enforcement folks that have been working this, when someone is able to fly under the radar screen like this for an extended period of time, it's generally because they appear to be so normal and non-threatening. And I think that's that's a theme that I heard on on, you know, some of the the podcasts that I listen to, but I've seen it in cases where value has worked, where the person just doesn't stand out as somebody that is threatening, that's stand out as someone that's scary or creepy.

[00:18:21]

They're very normal in two ways. They're normal in their behavior and they're normal in their lifestyle. So meaning that they could have a job, a good job, they could be married, they could have children. And in their everyday life, they appear as normal as you and me.

[00:18:38]

Do you have an opinion? I know you haven't been to Delphi, but do you have an opinion about the location that he chose and why he chose it? Does he live near there?

[00:18:50]

Yeah, I think that location is important while anything is possible, because this is an offender with a certain amount of confidence and a sense of being self-assured. But when you have a location like that, it generally suggest, at least initially, that that's a location where they are comfortable based on having been there before, having knowledge of it, knowing that there is a victim pool that would likely be there, especially since it was a snow day that there may be kids out there and more specifically girls out there, but it does suggest a familiarity.

[00:19:29]

Now, here's what's interesting to me, too. When you commit an outdoor crime scene, you have no control over who sees you, who writes down something, who observes you doing what the last thing that you want them to see. And they run to the police and all of a sudden you're confronted with law enforcement. So there's a lot of risk that this offender took to commit that scene and to do it there. That tells me that this is an offender who's very comfortable with taking risks in their in their life.

[00:20:02]

They're not stressed out by what they did. They're not stressed out or anxious about their behavior. But he did go he did take a lot of risk by committing an outdoor crime scene.

[00:20:14]

How do people like this get caught?

[00:20:17]

Well, there would have been a lot of forensic evidence at the scene, just in my opinion.

[00:20:23]

I would think that there would be quite a bit. And based on the forensic evidence, that's probably the way this person will be identified in court, and I think that the evidence, unlike a lot of murder cases and serial murder cases that I've worked, is going to include or could include things like DNA, whether it's semen or blood. It could include fingerprints. It could include hairs and fibers, trace evidence. And I think what's really important is that these offenders think that they are smarter than law enforcement and smarter than forensic scientists.

[00:20:59]

They may have read a book or two, but in the heat of committing that crime, they will have shredded they will have transferred some kind of evidence and the application of new technologies to the evidence that law enforcement has. I think there's a real good chance that's what will identify this person. Then again, part of the reason that they fly under that radar screen for such a long time is they don't go home or back to work and behave in a real nervous way, in an anxious way.

[00:21:33]

They'll go home and have a hamburger and French fries with their family, for example. So those kinds of post offense, nervous behaviors may not be applicable in this case.

[00:21:46]

And again, it's worth mentioning that the police won't comment on the crime scene or the killer beyond what they've already said. Part two, just a matter of time during our conversations with friends and family in Delphi. It's pretty evident that in between the feelings of sadness and loss, there are flashes of hope and optimism that the arrest everyone wants of bridge guy is coming.

[00:22:35]

I'm confident that we're getting closer. That's Erika Gibson, good friend of Abby and Libby. And we say that every time. But that's because we're getting closer. Every tip that comes in, every thing, every person who hears the voice, sees the face that's just getting closer and closer to finding the person who did it. Abbie and Libby's friend, Cynthia Rossi. It doesn't make me a bad person for sometimes questioning. Well, it's been this amount of time.

[00:23:03]

Is it going to happen that asking that question is OK? And I've learned that it isn't up to me. It's in the hands of those who were trained to find the person, and I have full trust in them and that they're doing the right thing and they know what they're doing.

[00:23:27]

Abby's mom and Williams, your biggest fear is that he's going to do this to somebody else, that he already has done this with somebody else, that somebody else's family is suffering. I feel like that's a big concern. So I'd sleep a little bit better knowing that this isn't ever going to happen to anybody else. And when we catch this guy, I I'll be able to close this chapter of wondering.

[00:23:50]

There is also rage. Here's Pastor Todd Ladd again.

[00:23:53]

When you think of someone who takes young girls lives, it makes me angry. Now, that can be young girls lives here in Delphi. That can be children who are affected anywhere else. That could be things in Syria across the world where bombings occur and children are killed. And that stuff makes me angry. But again, what we do is anger that enfolds us and controls us or the way that moves us to response to make a difference in the world.

[00:24:16]

So, yeah, I have the feelings of anger. I have the feelings of how in the world how could someone do that?

[00:24:24]

Here's Erika Gibson again until trial. You know, we won't exactly know if they can find him guilty, but it's directed towards more hope and more closure than it is hatred and anger, because, like, I'll still be angry then. But the families getting closure, the community's getting closure. Kids can stop being scared to walk to school or walk to the park or go to the trails because this person would be caught. And so it would be directed differently.

[00:24:58]

And I think it's going to be a big change, a good change for everybody.

[00:25:06]

When and if that day comes, though, former Delphi fire chief Darryl Sterrett won't be able to forget what he couldn't deliver.

[00:25:15]

Well, from the beginning, we were asked to find two girls and. I couldn't I couldn't do it, and I was asked by a very good friend to help them out and I couldn't do that. I know that's not being realistic, but one time that impressed me, anything that's ever asked for my help and I couldn't help it. Three years after this crime, we went back to Delfi again and sat down with Mike Pattee and Superintendent Doug Carter in Mike's kitchen.

[00:26:05]

We wanted to hear from them together about what moving forward looks like, how two men who were leading very different lives in twenty seventeen are now linked and working towards the same end.

[00:26:19]

I had no idea that we would now be 36 months out. But I get my my inspiration is very personal to me. And a lot of that comes from my gut in my party as well, Becky and Ana, because I owe them some answers and I owe them a resolution so that they can continue on somehow with their lives in a new way. And that will never happen until this is done and over. So I think the next step would be for this community.

[00:26:50]

We talked a lot about that the last time and then out of the community for this part of the state and the state, then in the region and then the entire nation. But it starts with a guy named Mike Pattee and his wife, Becky, to me and appreciate that it means a lot.

[00:27:08]

Obviously, we've met and we've talked a lot, you know, corresponded back and forth. And we've been from one side of the country to the other literally and actually become friends. And and that's a good friendship. I do like that. I cherish it and I appreciate that. But you're right.

[00:27:29]

You owe me. You owe me something. Yeah, but I'm going to work as hard as I can to help you deliver on that. And you know that. And and I maintain that position. And I won't change that position because we're we're we're working to the same goal. And I'm not going to stop anything that Doug has asked of me. I've delivered or done my best to deliver, and I've asked something of him and he's working as hard as he can and his team and supporting it to make that delivery.

[00:28:05]

And one day we will. And it's it's just a matter of time, you know, staying after it. Keep pushing forward. We're not we're not going to let up. Trust me, I want this thing solved yesterday as bad as anybody, probably more so. But I realize it takes time because there's really two deliverables here. One is, is Doug building in his team, building up, making a case to make an arrest. Then it goes over to the prosecutor who has to prosecute the case.

[00:28:41]

And we can't lose sight of that because we we've got to get it right and we have to get it right. And if that missing piece of the puzzle is the pieces needing, then that's what I'm out there advocating for people to call in. If you have one little tip, one little bit of information, you may think, oh, that's insignificant. No, let's not let those professionals. That's what these guys do for a living. Let them let them get that out and make that determination.

[00:29:09]

If it's not for me, even myself, people call me up and say, hey, I think it's so-and-so or I got this information. I tell them I'm basically kind of become an investigator. I start asking the questions and I said, you know, I'm turning this in because I can't go make the arrest. You know, it's truly going to be law enforcement is so interesting.

[00:29:29]

You say that. And, you know, that is that's a probably something I should talk more about. But you're right, because once the arrest is made, all fifty thousand tips are going to be are going to be dissected. Every single one of those tips will be dissected and we'll find out if there's any kind of activity, because if we jeopardize this, we can't pull it back. It's easy for the media or citizens or whomever to say, I think it's this.

[00:29:55]

And if they're not, if they're wrong, it's OK. But Mike is exactly right. We if we jeopardize this, we own it, we own it.

[00:30:03]

And I'll hold people accountable as it should. And and that's why we we want to get it right. And we're going to continue to and it's a it's a tough row to hoe, you know, but I trust in what law enforcement's doing. And so when they when they call me, I'm waiting for that call double call me and say my we got it. Good prevails. If it didn't, we will. We wouldn't live in a civilized society.

[00:30:34]

But it is a civilized society and the vast majority of people are good. But there's also evil. And this is an example of evil. You ever question that or does that faith in good winning ever waver for you? Oh, absolutely. You know, my dad my dad was was a state trooper. And when he gave me my badge some thirty five years ago, plus he said, don't become cynical like me and. On his deathbed, I told him, Dad, I'm not cynical, but I'm getting close and I'm fighting it, I'm curious what your thoughts are on good versus evil and does good win?

[00:31:16]

Yes, good, good. And the truth will always prevail, you know? You know, that's from my Christian beliefs, you know, and the fact that the Lord will deliver. We certainly hope it's in our lifetime and I certainly hope it's here and now for us. If not, there's a higher power that will be answered, too, and we'll judge and that'll come in time. It doesn't satisfy us while we're here on this earth and we want that so badly.

[00:31:56]

I can't think like this guy. I've tried to put my mind in the same place and I don't think I can. I've tried to use some kind of weird cycle. You know, why would this guy think and why would he do something like that? And I've been out there and think the same things and and just try to hope something would hit me, you know? But know, Mike, he may be free, but he's really not.

[00:32:24]

His soul is his soul is closed and dark and cold. That's a point. He he goes to sleep like you and I do every single night. And then he wakes up and the last thing he thinks of is what he did. And the first thing in the morning he wishes it would go away. I know that to be true. I just really do that. I just don't believe that he has got a clean soul and he'll never, ever, ever be able to to to to to cross the gates of heaven.

[00:32:54]

And in another way, I look at that. As for him and you're right, he may be walking amongst us, but he's got to be continually looking over his shoulder. Absolutely. It's not a good way to live. Are there moments of anger or do you feel like that's not productive? What kind of role does that play in your roles in this? Well, for myself personally, of course, I'm angry down inside. And I and I, I don't let that out because that I use I'm a very pragmatic person.

[00:33:26]

I try to think my way through things. Am I angry down inside about. Yes, I'm angry. I'm frustrated. I'm disappointed that this even happened. But, you know, to lash out at somebody in in just raw anger, what value will that provide? What value? How are you? I'm good and pissed off, frankly, for all the reasons we've already talked about. And my soul is getting eaten from the inside out. If I saw the person that did this to them, I don't think I'd be angry.

[00:34:02]

But I would just simply want to know why, you know, what were you thinking at that moment in time and how freeing that must be to him once he'd be able to tell somebody that I just can't help but to think that it would be an opportunity for him to release what he's feeling inside and in trying to to to release what he saw in those final moments. Those are the kinds of conversations I'd want to have, many maybe unspoken. But you would get an answer in my in my entire career, I've only seen No.

[00:34:38]

Five, soon to be five. I believe evil people, truly evil. They don't care if you live or die, but even they have had an explanation as to what they did and why this one's different, because I can't explain why. And like we said when this all started, I owe that explanation to Mike Padi and his family and to many other members of the family. I'm sorry, you're a member of that club. I really, truly am sorry.

[00:35:05]

I wish there were could have been something that we could have done prior to that that would have prohibited this from happening. But I guess that wasn't in the cards.

[00:35:15]

Well, aside from the appreciation, which he knows how much I appreciate the dedication and the resources that he's bestowed upon us when I say us as a local community to help. Travel down this path, but I wish I had met the man on different circumstances who could have become friends in a different way, and then we could sit around and joke and laugh and cut up about different things. And but we still have a laugh or two. But for the most part, we're or focused on the same thing.

[00:35:56]

We got an objective and we had a cold beer in California, which I think we did maybe a couple over.

[00:36:04]

And that was that was an enjoyable moment as well. But there, again, we were still doing that, focused on the objective and the deliverable here. So. Thank you. Thank you for everything. And I know you're not going to give up.

[00:36:41]

Part three, riding with Tobe, when this podcast ends, you will move on, new podcasts, work, other things. Me, Barb and our producer Dan are moving on to other stories, other cases. But after we've all moved on the town of Delphi, won't the families of Abigail Williams and Liberty German won't? Even Doug Carter, the face and voice of the Delfi murder case in many ways is going to need to return to work running the state police war budgets, meetings with the governor.

[00:37:17]

But Sheriff Tobed Lisanby, who wears the badge in Carroll County with the bald head and powerful mustache, won't he can't pay for this crime.

[00:37:27]

Is that his front door example? You grew up in Carroll County, right? Actually, I grew up in Clayton County, the next county south of us here. So but I've spent more of my adult life here than in my home county. So, you know. It's a 10 minute drive from Tobes office to a small roadside cemetery along three hundred north. It's about as close as you can get to the crime scene without stepping on a private property.

[00:37:58]

So we are at the cemetery and explain for me where the crime scene was.

[00:38:09]

Yeah, in that I'm I'm not the best judge of distance, I will visually, physically describe there's a ridge. There's actually two ridges here, one very close to us. The second one on on over a few more hundred feet beyond that second ridge, much closer to the Deer Creek is the area where the girls were located.

[00:38:34]

And we're confident that this case will be solved. I am. I am. And that's again, you know, I've been out for 34 years now. And, you know, granted, we we haven't resolved every one of them. But, you know, I come from the cloth that to this day that good wins over evil. It may take some time. It seems like it does some days. But, you know, we we had that continued perseverance about us and persistence.

[00:39:11]

So I feel like we will gain resolve with with this investigation.

[00:39:16]

And unfortunately, I just I don't know when when we spoke to you in September, you said that you had a handful of names in your head that you couldn't get out of your head. You said five.

[00:39:31]

Has that changed since then? Have you added any have you taken any away?

[00:39:38]

I to the second part, I would say I think in my own mind that possibly at this stage we have narrowed that list down, you know, maybe, you know, three or three or four.

[00:39:55]

But at the end of the day, you know, when an arrest is made, Dugard is going to go back to Indianapolis and deal with the state level stuff that he has to deal with. But whoever is arrested in this case is going to be sitting in a jail cell feet from your office. Have you thought about after the satellite trucks go away, after Doug Carter in the ISP returned back to Indianapolis? And you're working and you turn off the lights in the office and that guy's just down the hall?

[00:40:21]

Honestly, I haven't. But that's that is an interesting thought. More so, I guess, from an administrative standpoint, being the I feel the professional that I am as as sheriff of this county. And this is the way it is for all other ninety one sheriffs in the state of Indiana. We are we are charged with the by state law of the care of individuals within our facilities. And so therefore I take that responsibility seriously. I guess I'll call it a personal side.

[00:40:59]

You know, I yeah, I'd love to, you know, potentially go back there and just have conversation. But again, the law would more likely at that stage, you know, prevent me from doing that because they have legal representation. What would that conversation be?

[00:41:19]

You know, I again, I learned many years ago as a young deputy, one of the simplest questions, it's a simple question. The response is not so simple, that the simplest question, I guess I would want to ask is why? Why did you do this? Believe it or not, that's one of the questions that we rarely get an answer to. They can tell us the how, the where, the when the what, those kinds of questions.

[00:41:50]

But when it comes to the why, we don't always get a straight answer.

[00:41:54]

I noticed when you get in your car, you have the sticker on your dash. It said, you know, paraphrasing. But at the end of the day, God's got this faith. Sounds like it's an important part of you and your resolve with this case. Very true. Very true. I, I honestly look forward to the day going back spiritually that when we have that that final press conference, I want to be able to stand up in front of everyone and honestly say to God, be all the glory, because he will help us resolve this.

[00:42:32]

And as a second statement, I honestly want to say regarding.

[00:42:41]

Until then, until Toby can say those words, it's just open ended, it's just going this podcast, this story unrolled to you in parts nine episodes that we hope was able to shine a light on a dark crime that took away two young lives, forever, changed a host of others and shifted the trajectory of an entire town for all of them. This case doesn't end after nine chapters. It doesn't end when they return to work. It continues with no certainty that the open will at some point close.

[00:43:22]

But ask any police officer, any sheriff, any man or woman of the law, and their work begins and ends with the unwavering belief that justice always wins every time.

[00:43:36]

But that means never letting up and turning over every rock twice. Just in case. What do you think about when you come out here? Have we missed something? You know, is there still something here that we haven't fully ingrained and picked up on? You know, I remember the words of Dr. Henry Lee and study the crime scene. It will tell you the story of what what has happened in a particular area or location. And so I'd like to think that, yes, we've we've covered all the bases, but, you know, we're human.

[00:44:16]

We miss things. We ask ourselves to a certain degree, you know what? Have we missed something here? Down the Hill is written and produced by Barbara McDonald, Andrew and Me and Semenovich with original music and scoring by Chevaux, Sir, and production support from associate producers Michael Dudley and Caitlin Chassy. If you want to see the people, places and things we're talking about. Visit our website down the Hill podcast Dotcom.

[00:44:56]

Brian Bell is HLN senior director of programming and Tyler Moody is the vice president of the Warner Media Podcast Network. Sherry Seldes is our senior production manager. A lot of folks at HLN and CNN worked very hard to help make this show go, and we want to get the big fix to them to also a special thanks to the people of Delphi and the members of law enforcement who are in charge of solving this crime.

[00:45:21]

And most important of all, we want to thank you for listening.