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Hello everyone. Welcome back to Garaboldy Reds, a Nottingham Forest podcast brought to you by Nottinghamshire Live. Do hope you well. Remember, we're across Spotify, YouTube, and Apple podcasts for all your forest-related content. Today, I am absolutely delighted to welcome to the podcast, Mark Warbiton, former Forest Ranges, and more recently, QPR manager, as well as a spell recently at West Ham. To the podcast, Mark Great to catch up. Thanks for joining us on Garaboldy Red and a happy New Year to you. How was your Christmas and the New Year break?


Yeah, Max, thank you for the invitation. Nice to be on here. It was good, thank you. First time for decades. I've been working over Christmas, so Quite a bizarre, strange feeling, if I'm honest. I won't tell the family that, but yeah, it was very, very strange not working around Christmas, but nice to enjoy a break. And as I say, it's always good to chat about the game.


Yes, definitely. I suppose, Mark, first of all, what have you been up to recently? We touched on actually just before we came and recorded this about your last stint working with David Moyes at West Ham as assistant coach. What have you been up to since then? And just keeping well in general, really.


No, it's a good question, actually, Max. I had a choice. I was at the start, a couple of Championship offers, and I had West Ham. And David and I have vacations at the same resort purely by chance for many years with the kids. We play golf, et cetera, together. And David asked, I'll be interested in going in is his number two at West Ham. And as I said to you before the recording, Max, I hadn't actually experienced the finances of the Premier League, the set-ups, the structure of a Premier League club, European football, et cetera. So I was keen to explore that. Thoroughly enjoyable year. Great working with some world-class players, the likes of Deke and Rice and Lucas Pacotille, and Jared Bowen, a top, top-class player, and many others as well. So that was a great part of the learning curve. But I think the downside, at the end The season match, I mean, one of the European trophies, which is a great climax match for any season. I've got a very attacking style of play. David's more defensive. I think we were clashing. And just for the sake of our friendship, which is all important, I wanted to part ways.


And David and I, we are very amicable. We remained good friends. The downside is people thought I was walking straight to another job. Why would you leave after European trophy? So from my point of view, I like working, Max. I'm very open-minded. I went to the States and traveled, look at the MLS options, which again, very hard to break into. The market over here has certainly gone younger, being brutally honest. You have to look, you have to choose wisely. You can't rush into anything and give yourself no chance of success. I'm very, very keen to continue working. I enjoy it very much. I think I can add value. I think my CV is strong. But again, it's our opportunity, Max. There's many good people not working, so you have to respect that, you have to be patient, and you have to buy your time. So hopefully, the right opportunity comes long soon.


Do you want to return to the game, Mark? Is that something that if the right offer came up this week, next week, you'd be jumping at it?


Yeah, I've got to be honest, Max. I'm not precious, and take this the right way. I love managing. I've been very fortunate. When you manage the clubs as high as a forest and ranges, of course, Brentford, QPR, working at West Ham in such a capacity. You've been very privileged to be in those positions, really privileged. There's no other word for it, Max. But I've been a technical director. I've been an academy director. I've had a city background for 20 odd years. Very fortunate and privileged, to be in some very senior positions at some of the biggest institutions, the likes of AIG and RBS and Bank of America, etc. So I've been very, very lucky. So I like a position, Max, where you're challenged, where you can add value in terms of what you bring to the organization. And I like variety as well. So whether that's working on a board somewhere, a technical capacity, consultancy capacity, whether it's a manager, whether it's a coach, whatever it may be, I'm open-minded not to make yourself in a weaker position because some will say to you, that makes you a Jack of all trades, master of none.


Not at all. But I'm not 40 years old. I'm older than that. So therefore you have experiences that you hope you can bring value to an organization, a club, a business, etc. So yeah, very keen to work, Max, answer your question and hopefully this year will bring the right opportunity.


Yeah, you talk about there as well, Mark, your wealth of experience in the game. I wanted to touch on the start, really, for you and where the love of football came from. Of course, you played football for a short while before moving into management, and you mentioned there technical directing as well. Where did the love start of football?


I was very lucky, Max. I was one of those kids who was good at sport, all sports I could run. I had a choice at 16 to go running full-time on football. I loved all sports, tennis, basketball, cricket, you name it. I just love sports. I was very fortunate. I was good at numbers. I'm really good with numbers, Max. Good at English and good at sport. I was useless at many other things at school, but I went to, would you believe we went to a grammar school which thrived or excelled in music. I was the only person in the school that couldn't read a note of music. But the teacher would push me out in the playground, I'd be hitting a tennis ball or football against the wall. So love sport, love football, as I say. I went to be a young apprentice at Leicentus, at Leicentus City for a couple of years, and that really shaped it. I loved, as I say, every sport. Leicester was a different lesson. In the bizarre nature of football, Jock Wallis was a manager, Max. Jock is a legend at Rangers, and Many, many years later, there I am sitting in the office at the magnificent Ibrox Stadium with pictures of Jock Wallis.


You couldn't believe how that circle has gone the full way. So Joc was very successful, hugely successful manager, revered in Glasgow, quite rightly, and yet his style was something I'd never, ever come across. An ex-marine, very army-based, rigid discipline. And I'd come through an environment, loving family and a different type of football upbringing, a What I bring in. So I found it difficult. And as I say, it really killed my, not saying love of the game, but it really hurt my love of the game. I then went into semi-Pro, played a good team, went for the FA trophy in the Conference League. It was a good team. I enjoyed that. But then the city career started, Max. And without digressing into that area, that's a highly competitive environment. Big rewards if you do well, ruthless if you don't do well, teamwork is vital, communication. It's a dressing room. I desk of 12, 15 guys, or you learn it, it's a dressing room. Hence, 20 years later on, Max, the move into football was so easy for me because it was just like getting to work in the city. So that was my love of the game.


I was playing, I worked around the world, lived in Charlotte, North Carolina, lived in Chicago, Asia, Tokyo, Singapore, Hong Kong, New York. Very, very lucky. Wherever I worked, Max, because you have a British accent, they presume you can... You know football, literally. I'm coaching since Charlotte in I'm coaching a young girls' team, I'm coaching a young boys' team, I'm coaching a high school team, I'm doing the college, I'm doing a bank team, I'm doing a local restaurant team. I'm just coaching because it was great to do. I was single and loved it. So wherever I worked, Max, I coached, oblivious to the fact that you needed qualifications. As naive and ignorant as that may sound, I just didn't know. And then I realized, and I got back and very quickly took my Level 1, Level 2, got on a B license, was lucky, had a mentor who said I should move on quickly. I found myself in 2003, I think it was 2004 max, on an A license course with the likes of Ray Wilkins, Dean Saunders, Clayton Blackmore, Chris Coleman, Adrian Heath, these type of people. I was chief dealer at a bank in the city.


I'm sitting there going, What is going on? These are household soccer names. There's me. But that's when really the blue touch paper, so to speak, was lit. That's when I knew what I wanted to do. Coincided with my son, who was a talented young footballer, wanted to be a pro and love the game himself. But at 8, 9 years of age, few academies wanted him. And I suddenly find myself being asked to come and coach an academy team. And that was it. I was really keen to move into that area.


Certainly quite an interesting move as well, Mark. Wanted to touch on your time at Forest. Nine months in charge, took over the club when we were 19, fluming towards the bottom three. I'm sure you can remember it very well. How did that move come about? Because I'm sure it was hard to turn Forest down because of the size of the club, despite where we were in the league and the obviously situation surrounding us with the possible relegation to League One.


Yeah, it was really difficult for so many reasons, Max, some of which you probably don't know. In terms of what happened at Ranges, happened at Rangers. And they announced we'd resigned. Davie Weer and myself would never, that would never, ever happen. We would never And no disrespect to any club, but Ranges is a huge institution. It really is. Until you go up to Glasgow, Max, and realize the size of Ranges and Celtic, no one understands it. So you'd never, ever resigned. So we had this black cloud that we had a panic resigned. Absolute nonsense going on. But less than two weeks later, I'm approached by Forrest. Now everyone asked the question, was it Mr. Forrest? I've never, ever met Mr. Forrest in my life. It was Mr. Mouranakis in the period just as he was taking over Forrest, but I don't think it actually signed the paperwork, but it was that gray area in between that. I saw Mr. Marenackis and his staff very briefly, and he offered me the job. Now, someone would tell you, your CV is really strong, You're going to get other offers. This is Nottingham Forest. European champions in the past, twice incredible history, strong fan base, fantastic stadium and atmosphere.


So how often do you get... You can't afford to turn down jobs of this stature and this quality. So the timing wasn't great. The ownership was coming in. It was all new. So much uncertainty. But I don't think you could ever say no to a club not in the forest stature.


Yeah. And you mentioned there about having those initial conversations with with Marenake and his team. Were you shocked that when you first got the call that it wasn't Fawaz on the phone because he was still the name above the door, albeit that Marenackis was coming in?


I think I have many I have regrets that I'll come to. I'm sure you'll come to in a minute in the forest for different reasons. But I was literally caught in this vacuum between Mr. Fawaz and Mr. Marenackis. And obviously, what's happened to the club since and the investment from Mr. Marenackis and the Anis and et cetera, good people and what they're doing for the club and their desires for the club. But I was literally caught in that vacuum. I don't think the supporters knew. In truth, I was unsure what was... My agent was Mr. Fawaz speaking. I never met him, as I say. Never, ever met Mr. Fawaz. I caught a little bit in that vacuum, Max. I'm saying difficult, not difficult in a bad way. It was difficult in an understandable way in that who are you really reporting to? There's so much going on at the club in terms of staff turnover, different staff coming in, staff leaving. I'd met one person, shook their hands, and they'd gone the following day, and I had no idea what was going on. So it was a little bit of upheaval, but that's understandable. Someone's purchasing the club, it's a takeover.


So you come to expect that and appreciate appreciate the difficulties for all concerned. But as a manager, coach myself, Davie, Frank, we were really caught in the middle of all of that. Jim Stuart as well, of course.


Just going back to your first day through the door at the City Ground, what was that like, Mark? You went to it where the club off the pitch is in a really turbulent time, and then you're facing the media as a new manager and someone that the fans are turning to in a way to turn us round and to get us out of the relegation zone.


It was purely that. It was avoid relegation, That was the target, was to avoid relegation, quite understandably, what it means the implications are going down to a club, especially when you just bought the club. So for Mr. Mouranakis and his board, understood the implications very crystal clear. What had to be done, it was just survival. My first day in terms of that, what amazed me was, I think we had 36 players, something like that. I remember walking in and at the training ground, you have the pitches as you're driving, the pitches to the left of the first team, and they had the 23s and the pictures at the back of the office, so to speak. And I think I was told there was 11 loan players. I remember being told there's 11 loan players over there, Four & Boys, on serious money, on serious money. Now, I'm comparing it to Rangers, Glasgow Rangers, and I'm comparing it to Brentford, bearing in mind we'd finished fifth in the Championship in the Playoffs. And the wages were like, wow, there are people here, nowhere near the first team. But when you have that many players, Max, the immediate problem in that first one, two, three days was, well, hang on a second.


You're getting to an away game, you're driving on the coach on a Friday afternoon, and you might have 20 players on that coach. You've got 15, 16 boys not even on the coach, let alone not in the team. They weren't even on the coach, Max. So it was a case of very, very quickly looking at who wanted to be there. We lost one or two players to injury and mental health issues and whatever else very, very quickly. So it was a very unusual, very confusing atmosphere to walk into in those first few days, have no doubt about that, Max. And you go into the press and you say all the right things. You have to because the supporters quite rightly want to hear that their club is going to be okay and we got a chance to survive and everything else. But very quickly, for me, it became apparent two things: one, the role of the likes of Chris Cohen, David Vawn, Matt Mills, Jackobs, Michael Menth, the senior pros Eric Lehigh, the senior players in the squad. Secondly, the impact of the young guys, the Ben Berrettons, the Ben Osborne, the Jordans in goal, the Matty Cashes, these type of guys, the really young guys who would have such an important...


Joe Wauw. Joe Wauw just wanted to play for the first time. You see, if you look back how many times I played Joe, we played away at QPR jumping forward, and Joe made the mistake that cost us the game. We played really well at QPR, and Joe made a bad mistake on a halfway line, and we lose the game. But he had such a great attitude. And you look at the last game, who I played, who was around the team, how young we went. The save Jordan made it nil-nil. It was magnificent. If you remember, we tipped onto the crossbar and over. So what I saw was, yes, the experience of the senior pros, Chris Cohen in particular, and then the exuberance and the desire of the young players. So we had to almost, not saying just move aside, but we had to recognize who was going to help save the club and who we to really push to one side.


When you walk through the door and you see a group of players that are sat near the bottom of the table, did you see passion and fight amongst the senior players and even the young players and the staff as well? What was the situation like that they You knew that Fawaz was on his way out and that Mr. Marenackus was coming in, but it must have just been so difficult and turbulent for you as a new face in the club to come in and almost try and get the squad working together as Yeah, very much so, Max, because I was very fortunate.


Brentford is superbly run, is to this day. But when I went to Brentford in 2011, they were 18th in League One. So you've seen an owner come in, so If you're Ben and comes in to buy Brentford as Mr. Mouranack has came in to buy Forest. And you saw an owner put a structure in place, staff, I mean, five or six of the staff we hired are still there now, Brentford, in the Premier League. This is now, what's it, 12 years ago. So structure Sure, foundation's in place, good reporting lines, clear lines of communication, clear roles and responsibilities. So I've seen a really good structure being run. And then I walked in, and the confusion that I spoke to you about, there were staff who didn't want to be there. Staff had been there too long. Some really good staff, the Boulderson, Andrew, the head of medical at Standing, and some really good people, Kit staff, Amy, the PA, outstanding, some really good people. But you've got people leaving. You've got the You've got owners coming in, you've got their staff coming in. So the players are obviously confident slow because they are where they are in the league.


A new manager comes in, which is always a time of uncertainty because what does it mean for me as a player? Does he know who I am? Does he know what I've done? Or is he going to just cast me aside? Is he going to go and recruit players? What's going to happen? So I think there's so much uncertainty. So some really good pros there. As I say, if I've missed any of them out, there's no intention to miss anyone out. But the likes of Chris, the likes of David, these guys, Michael Menth, who I knew from Chelsea and been at Hamburg European finals. But these guys were in a tough position. And there was a young guys who showed that fearlessness because they'd never really been there. They probably didn't know the implications, Max. They're not them being naive or ignorant, they're just young. They're just feerless. So Joe Woll, Jordan, Ben Osborne, Matty Cash, Ben Brerrits, and these guys, they didn't care. They just wanted to play football for Forest. So you can see that there was a lot of confusion, a lot of uncertainty, and our job was to try and bring the order and clear goals that we wanted to achieve.


The obvious goal was to make sure not the Forest had in the Championship. That was the key, key, key goal. And then after that, we start to build for next season.


Yeah. And you mentioned there as well, the whole young players and certain players around the squad. You brought in Frank McPaul and David Weir, two people you've worked with throughout your career. How difficult was that to bring those in and say, Look, this is a really turbulent time, but we're here to steady the ship? Also as well, from someone that, Mark, you obviously have no involvement with Fawaz. In terms of recruitment, did Frank handle that as the traditional head of recruitment, or Is that something that Marenackus' team were more involved with day to day?


No, I remember reading something derogatory about Frank, Max. Let me tell you, there's not many better in this country in Europe with an IFR player. Frank should be working at the top end of the Premier League. He obviously was at Liverpool for many, many years with Rafa and Kenny and been there at the top, top end. But you've got a person there with a huge amount of expertise, a huge array of contacts, and he knows a good player. He knows a good player. I read something about quite derogatory, which was so wrong. In Davy Weer, you've got a player with outstanding pedigree as a player. Don't forget at 41, David is captaining Rangers in the UEFA Cup final against Seville. So you're talking about top, top people. Jim Stuart, rangers goalkeeper, Scottish international, and then obviously a top, top coach. So some really good people came to the club and their calm and influence, their knowledge, their experience was obviously vital in all of this. You had to make sure that was done right. But as I say, in terms of recruitment, I remember being told, I think, I forget our start date now, Max, was it March?


Yeah, it was March. It was just before Forest played Derby, actually. It was about two days before.


Yeah, Gary Rauert. And And Gary and I had a piece on TV with Mark Clement. I remember that, but I think it was March. So obviously, we looked at it and I remember them telling me that in the window, they had come back from the game. I think I'm right in saying, Zack Clough, Ross McCormack and two other players were sitting in reception, signed. No one knew they were going to be there. No one had a clue. So I don't know how the deals were done. I don't know who did the deals. But I remember the head of medical saying to me, We never did any medicals on these guys. So there's a lot of stuff going on that people are unaware of. And I'm not allocating blame. I just don't know what happened. So it's not allocating blame. It's not being rude or derogatory to any one individual. But there you've got players. Ross McCormack came on in a sizable way. He's coming from Villa and never really played for Forest, Ross. Zack Klaff came in, a young talent, really talented boy, and I knew him from Bolton. And two other players, I forget now who they were at the time, but they never played for Forest, the other two guys.


And that type of uncertainty, I'm not saying mayhem, but that type of situation causes confusion. People question their responsibilities. Should the medical have done it? Should the recruitment done it? It's not to do it, Frank. We weren't even at the club at the time, Max. But as I said, I read some things. I wanted clarity. I always felt, and I'll come to, I'm sure you ask questions, but one of my regrets is I always felt that the Forest fans never got the full story while we were there of what was really going on. There was so much uncertainty. But the one goal we had to achieve was to survive in a division. That was almost like driven in every single day. If we can feel that, and our job is to protect the players and staff, of course, they can feel it. They're not stupid. We had to make sure we did to do our best to create the environment match, which allowed us to achieve that one solitary goal.


How on earth do you deal with the uncertainty when you walk in and there's a player sat there that you know hasn't been signed by your team and your question, how he's arrived into the club? And those initial conversations with the likes of Zack Clough and Ross McCormack must have been really difficult because ultimately, Mark, they weren't your players.


No, they weren't. And as I say, they're very talented boys. Don't forget, I remember Brentford, we played full of them, had a great result beating full of them at the cottage. But Ross McCormack scored the goal. He's a really good high quality player. But Ross was one of many players who got injured. I don't think he played hardly a minute. Did he? I think he came on. Maybe he was a sub once and that was it. The two other guys, I had loan players coming up to me saying that they They wanted to go home, they wanted to get out. I didn't even know who they were. So you're going through a squad of players and many foreign boys who were training over the 23. So they're disheartened, discouraged, didn't really want to be there, obviously in a strange country, strange city. So these are all the factors. And the fans probably didn't know what was going on. And then they had, Why didn't we play him? And why did we try him? You just can't throw someone in there. You had to put people in there, Max, who wanted to play for Forest, who really, to use that old cliché, heart on the sleeve.


But the likes of Joe Wall, Ben Osborne, Matty Cash, these boys, they do. I can't be high enough for these characters. They were superb. Delight to see Ben and Matty go on. Joe, obviously, all these boys, Ben Beritan doing so well for Blackburn and then get his move. Jordan was there. I don't know if Jordan is still up for us. I'm not sure if he's left yet, but he's there for long.


He's left for many years. He's left for many years.


A loyal servant and a really good guy as well. When you outlined that to the senior boys earlier, they're some good people, but we had very, very quickly focus on the key guys, Max, who are going to look after the club and hopefully keep the club in division.


Do you feel like owners and recruitment teams and other people, rather than the coaching staff, have way too much involvement now from your experience in your own eyes? Do you feel like it's too much interference? Would you rather get on with it with the coaching staff, the professionals in a way?


I think we got to look at this. This is a discussion in its own right, Max, because you look at different models. So for example, we can look at a British model. And you go back 10, 15, 20 years, the manager ran the roost and did everything. Then the tech directors and sport and directors turn up, et cetera. And then you have European sport and directors who have a certain way. Then they have the overseas owners who come into the clubs and want to do things certain ways. I remember having a... The only way I'm going to be saying, the only way I could understand, I'm an early bird from the city days. I've always gotten a six in the morning because I did every club I go to, you get an hour and a half maybe before the staff The staff come in and your people start knocking on your doors. So that's the hour and a half, hour and a three quarters max, when you can get your emails done, get the session planned, look for the day before the staff come in, and it's that bit of peace and quiet. Yannis has said to me, No, there's no need.


Get in at 9:00, have breakfast, cope with boys, have lunch and go. Now, what that said in, it wasn't me asking him to be lazy, and he was nothing negative for Yannis. I have a lot of respect for him. What he was saying was, We'll do the rest. The European model is, We'll do the rest. We'll recruit the players, we'll do all the rest of the stuff, and then we'll give them to you. And without being creative, I think, and I'm saying this very honestly, I think you'd agree, Forest had a lot of players come in, and that is a model that works for them in their environment If you look at overseas and German technical directors and Spanish technical directors will come in, and they often be their own staff, their own managers, et cetera. You see that by the percentage of British coaches left in the Premier League, Championship, even League One now. So In answer to your... I'm not avoiding your question. Yes, I think it comes down to a technical panel now. Yes, I think it's the owner if he's heavily involved. If some aren't, some aren't. The technical director, the manager, the first team assistant manager or assistant coach, whatever you want to call it.


Maybe there should be a panel made up in my mind that goes through all of these aspects. And that works also, include the academy director and his staff. It works out for the pathway of young players coming through. So when you got a young talent, a Brenan Johnson coming through, a Joe Warhol, go back over the years when you have these boys coming through, making sure their pathway is clear and there's no glass ceilings hindering their progress. So for me, yes, I think you're seeing coaches and managers start to lose control. But then you can look at it and say, well, who writes the checks? The owners, and they write big checks now. And especially in the Premier League, you look at the players that Forrest are signing now on the wages and go back 10 years and you go, wow, we really have, as a club, moved up here in the world. So all credit to Mr. Marenackis and staff there. But as I say, when they're writing the checks, Max, have we really got a case to argue? I'm not sure we have anymore.


Touching on Yannis Rentros there and Marenackis. Yannis was the CEO, ran the football club day to day for Marenackis. During that time at Forest, what was he like to work under Mark? Because when Aita Karanka, the replacement, actually, after you left the Club Mark, came in. He then left about 12 months later, resigned because of his really turbulent relationship with Yannis. Were your experience always very pleasant with Yannis and the Marino Nackas ownership?


Yeah, firstly, I like Yannis. I really do. I've got respect for him. Very emotional character. I was amazed. Again, coming from Olympiakos and having been privileged to go to a couple of games in Greece and seeing the very turbulent crowd scenes and how they react to a win or to a defeat, that's totally alien to us, Max. We always spoke, Frank McParlin had a great saying from his Liverpool days, never too high, never too low. You never get too high after a win, you never get too low after the defeat Because the next game is three days away or four days away. So you've got to make sure that you keep that balance right. But what I saw, and Yannis, I'm sure he won't mind me saying this, Yannis is far more emotional. So I remember we lost the game and I couldn't get hold of Yannis. It was almost like a period of morning for two days. It really was. When we won, he was so emotional and dancing around and in fantastic hugs. You realize it's not a criticism, it's an observation that their way is very, very different to our way. Not saying one's right, wrong, whatever.


I'm just saying it's a different culture. So I had a good relationship with him. He's a very intelligent man, very knowledgeable man, but they conduct their business in a certain way. And as I say, that's where we have got to be more receptive, Max. You can turn around and say, Yeah, but you're in the UK now, you're in England now. Yeah, fair point. You are. So you have to respect that and understand that and appreciate that side of things. But at the same time, they're coming with different ideas of business practice and behavior, et cetera, and you've got to understand that as well. And you hope very much that becomes a tight marriage. It takes time. So yes, a lot of respect, a lot of frustrations, really were frustrations with the emotions. But as I said, my lasting memory of Viannes is one of respect, and I hope very much it's to the friend.


Let's turn our attention, Mark, if I can, to Survival Sunday, that game against Ipswich. Forest win 3-1 to secure Survival. The wonder strike from Chris Cohen, the save from Jordan Smith to tip it over the bar, as you mentioned it. I remember it as a young lad and the nerves, the emotion throughout the city that day. How on earth do you deal with that as a manager, facing the media, speaking to the players, and just conducting yourself around the football club leading up to that game? Because you really must have felt the weight of not only the football club, but the city as well.


Very much so. The frustration was there, Max, in that I didn't think we should have been in that position by then. I thought we'd play some decent football, and I'd say, QPRY is a prime example, and not got the result. One point here or one point there, and we were safe and gone. That's by the by. You're in the situation now where you've got a better result. And then, of course, the implication, I think, Blackburn were playing Brentford, weren't they? Yes. Of course, my old club, I'm getting all the phone calls, and then were they 2-0 down? Brentford in whatever time at all. And of course, all this is going on. But from us, in Davie Weer, who's now the telerecter of Brighton, you've got an outstanding character who, as I said earlier, been there and done it. Likewise in Frank, likewise in Jim Stuart. I've worked for Since the age of 18, 19, really, Max, in pressurized environments in the city every single day in terms of the billions of dollars going through every day. And you just used to pressure. You used to it. I thrive in it. I enjoy it. I miss it when it's not there.


So you've got to portray an image of relishing the pressure. Pressure is a privilege, as they say now, and you've got to make sure the players recognize it. I saw on that day a couple of senior pros, one being physically sick, the nerves, because he knew the responsibility he and the team had in terms of the club and the city. And that was a very senior guy. But the nerves were such. It's a huge responsibility, Max. So you can do all the talking, you can get everyone reassured, You can just phone them the night before, you can have little chats, all the stuff you do to make sure that come the kick-off, they're in the right place. But you can't ignore the fact that was just a huge game for so many people.


What did you tell the players beforehand, Mark? You stood the dressing room. What's the team talk like before such a big game? Is it more focused on the game plan and forget what's the noise surrounding it, or was it embrace the challenge and really put the pressure on them?


I'm a big believer in focussing on us, Max. Always have been, always will be. Of course, you respect the opposition. Of course, you prepare tactically for the opposition. But the focus is on us. If it's 100% of a week, then it's 80% on us and 20% on the opposition. And of course, we know the individual threats, the team threats, their set pieces, all the stuff you know. But the fact is it's got to be about us. I remember the message being, the last message was to have no regrets. Do not leave the pitch at that final whistle and have any regrets. Enter the pitch with no doubt and leave the pitch with no regret. And that was it. And I still think that's right. At the end of a trading day, at the end of a working day, whatever business you're in, Max, if someone says to you, Max, go work today, I have no regrets when you come home. I imagine you've had a really good day. I imagine you've been the best you could be for the vast majority of it, and you've given a good performance to whatever industry you're in. And that's what we wanted from the boys, because we knew we had obviously Brett and Lee High, Michael, and Milsy, et cetera.


And you look at Ben, you look around the team, Chris and David, et cetera, up front. And you knew we had some good players, and you just wanted to go. And of course, they were going to feel the pressure, feel the nerves. It just washed down from the terraces. It was an incredible day. But it's a magnificent football stadium, and I think I knew that I wanted to leave that pitch, Max, with no regrets whatsoever and get the job done.


What were the celebrations like after Mark surviving? Was it more of a relief than a celebratory? I can remember the fans invading the pitch and there was quite a nice bit from the commentary team of Sky, and they talked about that this was more of a relief for Forest surviving because of how big the football club was and it really couldn't afford to go down to League One.


Yeah, I think there's two schools of thought there, Max, because you look at Blackburn with Tony Mowbray, who went down and it allowed them to clear the decks and to rebuild. So you can look at it and say it could be a positive. But I think in terms of the takeover by Mr. Marenackis and the staff, it would have been disastrous for Forest to go down. I think there Too many negative implications had that been the case. So it was survival for the club. It was a huge relief, celebration-wise, obviously, with the staff and families and that. But then I had a number of friends come down from Glasgow, some really good friends, and They're still tight, tight friends now, but big Granges fans who came down to support us on the day. We went over to the, I forget the name of the pub by the cricket ground, the Magnificent Sunday Roast. And we went over there, and I think it was about 15, 20 of us max, and we had a few drinks over there. They missed their flight back up to Glasgow. I remember that. They got a later flight and they were the worst for wear.


But no, that was a celebration. Then there was a real relief. It was a real relief. I stayed at an apartment at by the race course and we went out for dinner later that night. It was just that sense of, wow, because it was a huge... There's nothing else. It wasn't, Can you finish in the top? It was just, Survive was the only task. So not an arrogant way. It was a job done in that respect, but it was just a huge relief, Max.


What were the squad like to work with Mark? You mentioned Joe Warrall, Ryan Yates was there as a youngster at the time, and as well as players like Matty Cassidy, the players that have gone on to play in the Premier League and be Premier League players. Could you always sense from a coaching point of view and from a manager point of view that they might make it really to the top because of how they conducted themselves around the football club?


Yeah, the attitude was first class. I'm very lucky to work with some really good young players. My background was youth, Max. So I was an academy director at Watford. A technical director, obviously, I set up a tournament called the Next Gen Series, which are 24, the biggest clubs in Europe, the likes of Barcelona and City, PSG, Ajax, etc. So in terms of young players, you've been very privileged to see some outstanding, world-class young players. But these guys had a fantastic attitude. One regret is that Mati Gash was working like a demon every day. But we had Eric Lehigh, who was playing really well and he could play left-back as well. I'm thinking, How'd you leave one out? But there's no doubt, Mati's enthusiasm, what a great character. I can't speak high enough about Mati Cash, Ben Osborne, Joel. Joel was a leader. Obviously, he went to the Rangers on loan and enjoyed his time at that club, I'm sure. But no, it's a really good... Ben Berritten was slightly younger. He was a winger, they wanted to play center forward. So he was a bit younger than the other boys. But no, they're actually first class.


And it's always a privilege to work with good people, good players. And you have to understand that these guys go to work in front of thousands of people. I've always said that when you give after dinner's speeches or you guests at various businesses and companies, and they say, Oh, their pay is ludicrous. I've got people here who do this, that, and the other, and they get paid half of that. No, but you don't go to work in front of 30, 40, 50,000 people. You don't go to work and get everything scrutinized on social media. You don't get hundreds of abusive text or whatever it may be on WhatsApp or blah, blah, blah. So you understand what these guys go through, the responsibility, the short nature of their career, the risk of injury, and all the other worries that come. So it's always a privilege to work with good players, mate. I really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed that. We started the season very optimistically, had three clear goals. But as I said, the regret side of it is still lingers, really, really... Yeah, it lingers, so we say. And it hurts right now that the Forest fans probably never...


I never felt the link with the Forest fans that you really wanted the other great link with Brentford, great with Rangers, great with QPR, really good links. And I just felt I never had it with the Forest fans because there's so much turmoil, uncertainty going on. And understanding what the goals of the club were in that second season, that was the biggest frustration for me. As I said, I'll never speak ill of anyone, but I just felt we were let down in terms of we hit every single KPI given to us, and then he gets out to Christmas, which is a rank was beyond beyond your imagination.


Yeah, no, I can imagine. And when the summer hit Mark and Forest had survived and Marenackis, the ownership had been completed and there was 20 % as well from from another one of Marenackis' co-businessmen, what were the conversations like? Did you have conversations with Marenackis where it was going to be, you're still our man, or was it very much still dealing with Yannis, the CEO? And what were the conversations really like after almost, you'd like to think that the turbulence off the pitch had been ended.


Yeah, I think the good thing was that Mr. Maranakis, absolute credit to him in terms of supporting the preseason. We had taken Brentford and Ranges to the IMG Center in Bradenton, Florida, which gave the players a really good break to work. Don't get me wrong, this was a really tough, tough trip. But the important thing on these trips is for the players, I'm not going to digress here, Max, but it's to take the players' mind off the fact they're working three or four times a day. They would go to the beach in the morning, for example, and do activation work and do all the preparation for the first tough morning session. They came back to breakfast and all they were speaking about was they saw dolphins off the bit. They were working. We would have a really hard day where we have three sessions, and in the evening, they would go and play beach volleyball and get all the group, party of 40, you'd have eight teams of five, and you'd have all the four courts, and everyone would play each other, and it was great. But the physios loved it because it was great for the ankle bones, the sound was great for recovery, et cetera, but it bonded everyone together.


It was another session. It was quite grueling. Then they went for swimming, swimming in beautiful water, went back for dinner, straight to the bed, slept babies for 10 hours, 11 hours. All this was carefully thought out, and Mr. Marenakey supported it. So we took the boys over there and made a really good trip. So all credit to him for doing that. But then the goals, I'll be very honest with you, Max, the goals were set to us as being reduce the size of the squad, which was 30-odd plus, reduce the age of the squad, which was, I think at the time, 29 and a half, and to be mid-table. To be mid-table to allow us to build the following year for a push at the playoffs. And I thought they were really fair goals. I really did. There wasn't a lot of money to throw around. You see what we did in terms of Barry McKai and Jason Cummins. And these were, I'm saying good guys, but relatively cheap imports in terms of the window. But they were the goals set for us and I was quite comfortable with those goals, Max.


You mentioned Barry Macai and Jason Cummins. Were they your signings, your team's signings, or was the more interference and involvement from Marinoacus and Yannis?


No, we had Mr. Andreas Bukalackis was one, for example. I remember I was on holiday and Yannis called up about Andreas, who was a character I stay in touch with still now, who's a good guy, really nice guy, great character. But this was all new to him. This was really new to him. We had that type of situation, but Barry McHier was outstanding at Ranges. Outstanding at Ranges. And again, the fans saw glimpses of Barry, the QPR. It was a 4-0 home victory against QPR. Barry was outstanding. And you saw glimpses. Jason Cummins was a goal scorer. But again, it takes time for these people to settle. And that's the thing. I'm trying to give examples because it's always good to support a comment match with an example of what exactly you're implying. We took a boy, Jota, at Brentford. He came in from Spain. I remember it was July, August, and he had a snooved gloves and a hat on at the training ground. It must have been 28 degrees, Max, and he's come out like, What on earth is going on? He could not adjust. He came from up by He was like, What on earth is this?


If it did below 20 degrees, he had this look of hole in his face. For the first three or four months, Max, I could hardly use him. Now, we paid at the time, a fee for Brentford, a million euros, a 1.2 '95. By November, this boy is now starting to show what he could do. And by December, he was absolutely outstanding. But it took that six months. Now, if you judged Hotta, on those first four months, you're saying, What on Earth have you bought here? Different food, different language, different climate, everything that you and I both know has been easy to understand. Likewise for Barry and Jason, they found it hard, I think, to come down. There's no doubt about Barry's ability, but he's also, it won't mind me saying it, he's very comfortable being back home. It goes to hearts, he's ripping up at hearts and doing so well. So I think, again, it wasn't a lot of money, but the goals were clear. And that was a frustration that we hit all of the goals. The average age came down. So I think in the last couple of games we played, your stats will tell us it was below 23, that's the age, it was 22 and a half, I believe.


The size of the squad was down to 24 from 36, and we were 13th or 12th in the table. So you're saying, well, all the KPIs have been hit. ' And that's the biggest That was the biggest frustration for me. And as I say, at the end of the day, I've never criticized an owner, Max, because they write the checks. They write the checks and you can't... It's a big investment for them, be it Matthew, be it Randy, whoever it may be, you can talk about your disappointment, but always be respectful because it's the owners that write the checks and keep the club afloat.


Yeah. And I suppose with your departure, Mark, before that, Kay, did come a bit of criticism from the fans. And I wonder, as a coach, when you get asked questions constantly in the media about tactics and maybe some criticism from the terraces, how do you deal with that on a professional level? And I suppose during your time at Forest, did you feel that that criticism was unfair? Because I know the fans didn't know really deep down, but you and your team knew that the target was mid table from the Marinox family.


And that's exactly the question, Max. And I'm not saying a regret because you have life is life and you move on and you learn from your experiences. But I would love to have come out. Can you Imagine if I'd have said at the start of the season to the Forest fans, Now, let's come mid table. If we can come mid table and start to build from there, I would have got battered. You imagine, we're not in Forest, we're European champions in the semi-9 What do you mean mid table? They would have been mortified had their manager come out and made a statement like that. Now, in truth, after where they'd been and a takeover and the turmoil and the staff changes and player changes and huge numbers going out, and lone players are left, right, and center. You finish mid table, you finish 12th in that division, you just set out the top 10, you bet it in the players like Joe Woll, like Matty Cash, like Ben Osborne, like Ben Burrerton, George Hector, you build them, you add one or two in terms of the windows, and you're in a good place. You're in a good place.


But patience and time is that commodity that's never really afforded. And we hit every KPI. Now, my background, Max, was a city whereby you set a KPI. If you have to earn X million dollars a year for your bank and you hit the KPI, this is what happens. There's your bonus, this is the thing, this is what you've done. It's all very, very clear. And that's the world I was very used to. And then you come in a football where logic goes out the window. As I said, the Rangers, we're sitting there. Rangers, I'm trying to give you, again, support with an argument. You get promotion, you win a Training Cup, you get to the Scottish Cup final, beat Celtic on the way in the semifinal. The goal for the third year is European football. You're second in the table and he gets sacked. And you go, How on Earth? That cannot happen. But it's football. Brentford, had we got promoted, Matthew wanted to form it. He's the owner. We're really good friends. We had lunch over Christmas. But again, I didn't agree with the form players coming in the January window. It's Matthew's club.


He writes the checks. I was going, Had we had we one promotion to Premier League, I was still gone, Max. And you would say, No, it's football. So here we are at Forest and you say, Again, I'm not used to that, but I'd love the fans to have known. And that's why I said to you, I never felt the connection that I really wanted because the fan base is magnificent, and the support and look at Steve and et cetera. And I remember, it's great. It's a fantastic fan base, hungry for success, and so, so pleased to them that that success has now come, Max. But at the time, I couldn't go in a press. Can you imagine what your reaction would have been if I said, Max, if we can come mid table and then look to build for year three, you'd have gone, get rid of the coach. You would have screamed from the head along with thousands of others. And that's the problem with football is you want to send this aggressive, confident, optimistic message to the fan base. If the reality is not there, if the quality of players are, we couldn't compete with the clubs at the time who were in a top six, top eight.


We couldn't compete with them budget-wise, The quality of player-wise, we just couldn't. And you look at teams now when they say to you, We should be so and so. Well, hang on a second. Look at the league now, Leeds, Southampton, these huge clubs that are up, the Leicester City, et cetera. It's going to take some Championship club to compete with them. And that's the problem. It's the expectation of fans, and they're not being told the full picture. And managers have to be very careful, head coaches, what they say, Max. But the truth of it is that's my regret, because I think the fans were always a little bit unsure. And in terms of style of play, we wanted to play. That was made clear in terms of how we're going to play. And what do you do? You said, well, actually, we're in the table here with a young team, interested in the style of play, and they're being brave to go with it. So we were, okay, I never expected this act for one second. Not at David, not at Frank. Honestly, Max, sometimes you get a hint, there might be a problem here.


Not for one second. I'm sitting in the office doing a session for the day and the plans and bang, you're gone. So again, you can say that's football, you can say you're better for the experience, but I've got to say it does rankle when it happens. You don't feel it's deserved.


Yeah. And Mark, you departed. I think it was, I can't remember, New Year's Eve. It was after the Sunderland defeat that Forest had had. Were you just sat in your office and then did a call come from Maranakis or Yannis?


No, no. The chairman walked in. Nick walked in. We were joining Metcod, I think, at the time. And I have a good relationship with the chairman. He's a QPR fan before the forest. He's West London fan. So that was obvious one and Brentford and everything else. But just got a knock on a dodge on the training ground early. It was New Year's Eve, whatever it was. I was in training grand early, we were preparing for the session and then he walked in and said, Unfortunately, there's going to be the owners have decided on a change. Bolt out the blue. Davie Weer, who was sitting opposite me, Frank's office next door. I said, David, let me have two minutes for the chairman. Because David Weir, there's no secret that he's a top, top individual as is Frank. So therefore there were no secrets, but it was right that I had a word with nick. Very disappointed, more than disappointed for a variety of reasons. And as I say, the lingering frustration, Max, is that the fans never had that connection that had all the other clubs and group here afterwards had a fantastic relationship with the fans was because I think there was so much uncertainty with the taker I have an uncertainty with the expectation, what was regarded, what represented success, for example, for Forest in that season.


And you're an avid fan, a loyal fan. If I said to you, 12th, I'm going to repeat myself, but you would have been shocked. You would have wanted to hear, We pushed for play-offs. We weren't in a position to do that, Max. If we come 10th, 12th, which I absolutely believe we would have done, then we're in a good position. You hit the KPI. So as I say, frustration there because I know the club is a fantastic Fantastic club. The fan base is magnificent and I would love to have the opportunity to continue the work and forge that relationship, which I know is so beneficial for everyone.


Did you find it difficult to... Often, managers in the past at Forest have talked about how hard it is to go into a club with huge history, Brian Clough, European champions and the past. Did you find that difficult to work under or do you embrace that as a manager and look up to the success that Brian Clough had created? Or was it a new chapter, in your opinion, when you walked through the door at Forest and thought, actually, even though what Brian Clough has achieved, I'm here and I'm here to do a job?


I was very clear on this subject, Max, because bear in mind, I came from Rangers as my previous club, which is, I cannot speak highly enough of Rangers as a club, and a fantastic history. We would go to the stadium and you walk down. A match day at iBox is quite incredible. You walk down the corridors and a picture of the great players of the past and the historical nights of John Greg who would come to the games. A privilege to see the mighty John Greg. You have all this history, but that's history. I would say to the players at Rangers, You need to get your pictures on the wall. When I walked in the training ground at first, it was all these old pictures all the way down. I'm thinking myself, We need to get our players on the wall here. They need to create the history because with the greatest respect, you can't live off of that. You can't keep living. When I was at Forest Max, all What I heard about was planning for the 40th celebration, 40th celebration since European Cup. I said, and I went out in the press, and I was very, very clear, very respectful.


Still to this day, what an unbelievable achievement. Not to win it once, but to win it twice. Not to win it twice. Not to win it twice. To be champions of Europe. Unbelievable. You cannot find enough words of praise for Brian Clough and Peter Taylor and what they achieved. So there's no lack of respect. But it's nearly 40 years ago. We can't keep living off of that. You've We've just avoided relegation to League One. You can't say, Yeah, but we used to be European champions. Irrelevant. That's a fantastic part of our history, the statues, the boardroom. Fantastic. But we need to win games now, make our own history now So I was constantly fine, and the report came back and went, Are you disrespecting Mr. Clough? No, I'm not disrespected Brian Clough. I've just made that really clear. You've always had that. You had to be not saying walk on eggshells, Max. You had to be careful. And I'm pretty good in the media. And I'm saying that in an arrogant way, but if you can survive in Glasgow, you've got to be good at Media. There's no better media learning than going to Glasgow.


Trust me, an old firm game up there. I remember the press used to take three and a half, four hours in Glasgow. And when I came down, the If you look at the media guy, before he said to me, It's going to be about 15 minutes. Is that all right? I'm thinking, 15 minutes after four hours, it was a joy. If you can do the Media there, so I was very careful, Max. But you always felt your walk on eggshells because you never wanted that. One lion, one poorly reported article to the fans of the uproar because it's the history of Nottingham Forest. But it's a Bryant. You stand with a Bryant Club stand opposite. Fantastic. But we can't keep living off of that because the fans now, you got to have new fans. You have new season ticket holders, next generation of fans. You want the grandads to bring their sons, to bring their grandsons and all the stuff that you know, Max. And if you keep living off the past, it's never going to happen. So that was another battle that was going on in the background a little bit. I'm sure other managers after me had the same situation.


Yeah, it's very interesting to hear, Mark. I suppose you talk about not... You wanted longer at Forest. You feel like you were a little bit hard done by given the challenges set by the ownership. Do you feel like you still had a bit of a part to play, really, in the club getting promotion? Because so many managers before Steve came in and obviously finally did the job and delivered what the fans had wanted for so long.


Yeah. I mean, any manager would tell you that. Because of my different background, Max, I've got no problem. If Forest had been 21st in that following season struggling, in fact, I'd go in there probably off to his resignation because it wouldn't have been right. But we weren't there. As you say, we lost to Sunderland. But again, you look at some of the stats. I remember one game we played, we battered them and we just couldn't score. But I knew you could see the signs. It was coming through and the young players were responding. I didn't see it coming at all. And as I say, when you hit the KPIs, that's the frustration. Then when you say to yourself, Well, the fans never knew what the KPIs were. And there's the breakdown, there's the problem. And again, I don't want to repeat myself. I said earlier, Max, but it's making sure, I think, for future managers and coaches is understanding how you get that message across. I digress, but again, trying to support in comments. You could never go into Ranges and say, Yeah, but we were second. Davie Weer said to me, If we played Barcelona now, Ranges fans expect to win.


That's what they used to. So you can't say anything to the effect of second is good, because if you're a point behind Celtic, disaster. And as I say, Forest is a big, big club with a big history, and therefore fans don't want to hear negativity. But sometimes, honesty is the best policy. Could I have maybe found the words to say, Look, we're building here. We're building here to the fans. If we can keep building solid, no risk of relegation. Let's come 10th, 11th, Let's keep building. And the next year, we have a real run at the playhouse and the owner. And I could have made a bit of pressure with. We can go and spend some money in the windows and we can go. That would have been the right message. Would it have been well received? I'm not sure, Max.


Just to close, really, Mark, what did you make of the sacking of Cooper and now Forest, to have Nuno S. Burrito Santo, a proven Premier League manager. But football, it must be difficult to see other managers lose their job, or is it a sense of you could see it coming for Steve? It's a results-driven business, and for Forest to move on, they have to make that change.


Yeah, I think it's... And firstly, Steve's a good friend. I know Steve, and I phoned him, and I missed his call, and I'll speak to Steve. And a wonderful job to get Forest up there. And the relationship with the fan base, it shows you that the fans... I remember when QPR played Forest, when Sebi Lamushy was in charge, and I remember the away support being incredible. And it was quite phenomenal. And I know QPR, Loftas Road It can be really good. And the atmosphere that night was good. It was a good game of football, and the atmosphere was tremendous because the QPR fans make a great noise. I remember looking over and thinking, well, on a Wednesday or Tuesday night, freezing cold, they have filled top and bottom of that end. Wow. I knew the size of the club. So you understand that nature of the fan base, the loyalty and the backing. But Steve did so well to form that relationship. But that with it makes it awkward. Steve knows as well as any manager, you said it, it's a results industry. We're in the entertainment industry, Max, so you've got to entertain, but at the same time, you're dominated by results.


I was doing a radio, recent Premier League game, Liverpool Palace or something, and someone came up this question about Steve, and I said, For us, the only goal this year is survival in the Premier League. And again, you get, Yeah, well, they should be doing better than that. And I went, No, no. When you look at the clubs, it's like every year is Sean Dyce at Burnley, and I meant they go into European football that year, and they said, 'We should be a top 10 team every year. And I thought, 'No. Every year, Sean and his staff keep Burnley in that division. Premier League is a magnificent job because not being moved to Forest, but you're not united, Arsenal, Chelsea, Tottenham, Liverpool, City. You're not these... Look at Newcastle. You're not that yet. You can be. You can be, no doubt. You can be, but not yet. And as I said, I think Steve will know the results were tough, but he was keeping Forest in the division. And that comes down, same thing, what represents success for Nottingham Forest, Max? And if the founder says, just survive in the division, there's that mortified, you know what?


We're not advised. Every single team will I'm not going to say that. Every single team will say it. So I think it was a difficult decision for the ownership. I'm sure Steve, he knows he did a great job there. His CV will be strong. He'll get another good job very soon. I have no doubt about Steve's quality. What I will say also So in Tom Cartlidge, you've got a wonderful chairman there. You've got a very knowledgeable businessman. You've got a very astute businessman. You've got someone who cares passionately about the club. So I know I've come across Tom, and again, you really have got a fantastic capture there. So the future is bright in that respect. I'm sure it's very tough for Tom and the owner to move Steve on, but I hope very much that Steve will be fine. I know he will be. And the club under Nuna, they've got a couple of great results. You look at Manu in Newcastle, et cetera, and you hope very much that 2024 is a great year for Forest.


Do you still follow Forest and almost hope that I suppose any of your former clubs do well?


You always do. I'll be honest with you, Rangers is quite unique in how it gets into your blood because it's a level of passion, Max, that you just cannot understand until you get up there. I went to a big meeting last week, got a decent high power meeting, and a lady there worked many years at Ranges, was now working for this organization. And she said to me, Mark, nice to meet you, blah, blah, blah. She said, People have got no idea. She said, I tell them here? They have got no idea until you go up there. So it's a level of passion that gets into your blood. It really does. Papers every day, 20 pages of Ranges and Celtic, radio shows every night, media every day, the commitment. So that one club gets into your blood. But I always look, straight away, Brentford, how they get on. Forest, how they get on. Qpr, how they get on. West Ham, of course, how they get on. I look at the squads, who's playing, who's doing well. I look at Mati Cash at Villa. Why isn't Joe Wauw playing at Forest? What's happening to Joe? You just do.


You look at Brentford and Saeed Ben Rahman, who's gone to West Ham not playing. What's Saeed going to do? And all this type of thing. Because the staff, the players, the fan base, I've got good friends at every club, Max, and you want to see the teams do well. So now that will never, ever change.


No, definitely. Mark, thank you very much for your time spent with us today, and hopefully see you in the game sometime soon.


No, mate, it's nice talking to you. Thanks for the invitation.


No, you're welcome. And as always, if you've enjoyed this podcast, remember to like, share, and subscribe across YouTube, Spotify, and Apple Podcasts. And remember to drop us a review, too, on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, if you do enjoy it. We will see you next week. Thanks for tuning in and have a great rest of your week, whatever you're doing.