Hi, everyone, everyone, welcome to Golden Turkeys Episode six, We made it Jamie Sleepytime, that's a month and a half.
I'm quite tired Ito today. Oh so you're saying I'm, uh, I'm playing tennis tomorrow morning. Um why with these new lockdown rules. Um yeah. And I get Plake relatively early this morning to try and do like an emergency sleep schedule. Just I'm a bit tired and but you know, I've got Jamie to combat my tiredness.
Um, so do you remember in episodes past when I said I had a bottle of old recipe Iron Brew?
Yes, I it it's that debut. Did you hear open there. It didn't really. I did this. OK, I've got it. And I'm going to record myself drinking it and it went out in twenty eighteen. Mm hmm. So here we go. Does it taste the same as before? It's very flat. Yeah, that makes sense. Right. More that air has been greatly improved. Well, maybe I'll put the video in, Jamie, that'll be interesting.
I probably won't. Are you recording already?
Yeah, I recorded my phone. I should get my laptop recordings. Oh, fuck. Um, OK. My laptops, security quoting now, if I have a power, if I have a pirika and then we lose the stuff my PC then welcome to the podcast.
You guys just miss me drinking some I Amberg. I'm sure that's not going to happen. OK, well that's not very nice. That was very disappointing and my sense is that it does not.
He's very nice. And so what, what film or should I say films. Everything this week, Jimmy?
Uh, we are doing as the film that came out 50 years ago beyond the Valley of the Dolls. Right. It was based, which is technically kinda sorta a sequel to the 1967 film called Valley of the Dolls.
That's right. We decided to watch that as well. And yes, I be honest, I wasn't paying much attention to the first film because it is incredibly boring.
Oh, that's so I've got I've got some stuff like that as long as you can see. So I've got I've got my handwritten notes about the second film, but I didn't really have time to take them all up. So I might be bit all over the place as usual, but even more so than usual for that one. So we well, we watched them on a new service, didn't we? Jamie? Yes.
Chilly today. Today's Wannsee not not today's fonsi filigrees.
Sign up using the Talkies podcast and you'll get a broken Web link for for legal reasons.
We can't call them responses.
I reckon if we got five likes in this video and chilly with sponsors, because they really they although I don't know what marketing, I'd never heard of it, but it seems that, you know, it seems legit and it seems that a lot of holes in it.
So, yeah, go check actually and then our sponsors. But they could be kept in touch if you're from Chile. Um, OK, historical context time, uh, yeah, historical context time, so, um, beyond that, those came out in the 17th of June, is that right? I believe so, yeah. So, um, the charts, the charts, uh, have really not changed at all for any country. And can you get her back home by the Engleberg Cup team is now five.
That's right. Number five.
So it might be the charts next week, but once again, I've forgotten to check and the World Cup results, and I cannot believe every single time I forget to do that. And despite the fact down, it's fine. I'm on the website now, uh, quarterfinals, I think it was. We said, didn't we? Yeah. Germany vs. England. What's the score? Uh, does it say the score must be? What the fuck? So this Web site does not see the score, it says sign up for free to watch the matches if it's like happening.
No, it happened 50 years ago.
How can you know the score so long ago that it was free to. Oh, this is where we got knocked out, of course. So there you go. So I assume back home will not be in the charts next week because they got knocked.
They surely got pretty bruised maybe. I don't think so, though.
OK, so that's one or that's the first section of a context. And the only other thing of any interest, and as far as I could tell, was that Time magazine did an article about Catch 22 and which that week. Yeah.
So that's the second that's the second article about it. So maybe I'll read them for next week or maybe I'll be woefully unprepared next week yet again. Who knows. Chinen tune in next week. Today and yeah, that was that's what we're doing. We've got to come and talk about it. So I'm sure we're not sure we can move on so and join a sober valley of the dolls.
OK, so like I say, you know, Duncan, nothing I that in the podcast before that it's important that you go into a film writing to me so and so in terms, you know. Right. And I'm going to be frank, I didn't this time. I was very tired. I didn't wanna watch a film. I didn't want to watch this film. So I had none of it really absorbed. I made you watch it on women.
You go to free women. They Hollywood get involved in violence. And, yeah, we'll complain a lot.
So do you want me to talk more about this? Have you got if you got sufficient stuff on the Sackman. Yeah. I mean obviously you need to jump in on this one, but I'm so sorry for you.
If it was directed by Mark Mark Rabson and not to be confused, Mark Ronson, who is an American British singer of Uptown Funk fame and not the same person. Mark Robson is a Canadian director. He was he was an assistant editor and Citizen Kane. Nice.
Yeah, pretty cool, and it stars Barbara Barbara Parkin's, who I had never heard of and didn't recognize any of her other work at Patty Duke, who I'd also never heard of.
But I thought she was really good in this film. And she was playing really Nelu Neely O'Hara, the.
Oh, yeah, the one she was she was good. She's really short. She's under five feet. One point five years, and that's my interesting fact about Patty Duke, yeah, portions of the this film and uh, of course, I had Sharon Tate as well, who is famous for getting killed, which is pretty tragic. You didn't know that.
I know Sharon Tate was in the Belmont, didn't get killed. I the one I know the one famous thing about them. But you watch the film. Yeah.
Did you know that Judy Garland was originally right? I did.
Yeah, I was. It's so. So and the character of Helen Lawson is just like old. Musical star and was played by Susan Hayward, but it was meant to be played by Judy Garland and apparently, I assume you read the same thing on Wikipedia. They made her. Yeah. The film The End was about Judy Garland DA.
Yeah, they filmed there at the end of the filming. They. After she'd, like, taken lots of drugs and alcohol and stuff, so pretty tragic and then she didn't even get in it and, uh, well, oh, John Williams, apparently John Williams, that music for this film is indeed John Williams.
Like I saw I saw the, uh, at the Star and I was like, oh, some guy called John Williams it. And then I looked up to check in is the John Williams music for he got I think he got an Academy Award for. No he didn't. Am I making it up. I feel like I'm making it up. Could you check overweigh? Me. Well, OK. If you want if you want to talk about politics.
All right. So you've got the carrot, the carrot to the Barbara Parkin's, please. He was called and and she she goes to New York from New Hampshire. She's from a little quiet town. She goes to New York to get a job as a type girl, which is not really a job you see nowadays, is it? Yeah, I mean, I guess it's just the secretary, isn't it, is a secretary, but I mean.
It's I guess is a secretary bit like the idea of like a 35 year old woman sitting in a room at Typewriter's is like not a thing because everyone can type. No, you know. Using a typewriter does seem pretty. It was nominated for best music nominated, right? OK, there you go. Nominated for Best Music.
And yeah, so I can see why I would be someone's dedicated job, especially like no one typewriter first became commonplace. But I'm guessing a lot of, like, people would be in charge of a company, wouldn't have had much experience using them. Oh yeah.
No, definitely like it. I'm not saying that. And I'm not saying that it was like an easy job or anything like that. I'm just saying that it's it's a lost job. You know, you would not get type girls nowadays. And also it's pretty sexist. And which brings me to my next point. She gets she gets a job very easily and but also very misogynistic.
And this is the guy who says, like, he needs a girl with natural beauty, like so by yours. And then he just says, give me.
And that's that's a bit later on. But it's something similar, something very similar to that, where he's like, is she pretty? Can she type? Sure.
And then we are. And then he just he just sends her on an errand, like straight away. And of course, nowadays, no one, you can't be that misogynistic. And number two, getting a job is quite hard, whereas it seems to be very easy. And she just immediately gets it. And then she goes over to the theater, which is shown to be this like very cool, hip and happening feature where there's all these, like, classes going on and stuff.
And she's got to deliver contracts to Helen Lawson, who's a very nasty I'm like old old musical star that's reaching the end of her career, but is holding on to every every last bit of fame she can. And while she's delivering the contracts, Helen Lawson fires and a new girl there is has a song in the musical. She cuts the song and fires a girl because the girl girls better than her. And she's scared of that. Yeah, yeah, and and the girl she fires is called O'Hara, and she's a little, uh.
I don't know, she's very, very smart.
Well, yeah, I mean, I was more thinking of her character. She's very sort of a Ignatius pugnacious. Maybe she's I mean, she's Irish, right? Or like American Irish. And she's very and she's kind of that very cocky. Yeah, cocky.
That's especially when she's, like, doing her song. She's like a very cocky. And so she she then. Moves on from the musical and gets a job in a club singing in the club, and and I always think of these clubs are very interesting where you're kind of hang out like a table.
You, like, sit and talk at the table and it's like a band going in and there's a dance in the middle. I always think that looks pretty fun.
Yeah, I'm sure there's like exactly three of those. Laughing Yeah, exactly. It's definitely a dying thing. But I mean, you see them in all these films like any film set in this period, and they look awesome. I mean, you know, I like I like to be fair.
Yeah. It was like when you think about that kind of a boring night out, like, can you imagine, like, if you're on to a bar and like, oh, you are only allowed to like, listen to the live act and you are lots of people.
You are you know, let's talk. They're always talking in the film. You're allowed to talk in the films I like. Oh.
You think in real life maybe people would like people who give you looks like yeah I feel like the same is like talking to cinema or a theater.
Right. I don't know. I don't I know. I think it's different once there's a stage, a proper stage in the mix and my oldest chairs are looking at the stage, then I feel you've got to the point where like talking would be frowned upon.
I don't know if you have you have you ever been to Tristram's in an aggressive market? It's kind of like that. It's got live music every night. Oh yeah. Everyone's at the bar talking and I mean the music's so loud it's like shite and whatever, and it's kind of like that. And basically everybody it's more modern, obviously, and I feel like people talk there, but I don't I can see how it would definitely be.
I really hate music and I know after this I've been here before, but it's fine. Yeah, I like to talk to people and they always play it too.
Well, you know, actually there's a bit there's a bit in this film and a lot later on where they go to a bar where there's just no music and no one talking and it looks really nice and. Yeah, but also really awkward at the same time.
If it was just like I feel the ideal situation would be like low light lyrics, music and then like just some hip hop beats to something relaxed.
Yes, exactly. Samples of David Attenborough just interspersed that bigged.
I am. Yeah, I get what you mean. I don't know, I, I just I feel like just from experience, I feel like it's you're used to going to a noisy bar and when you're not in a noisy bar, you kind of feel like you're in a hotel lobby. That's how I always feel. Or like there's a there's a bar. There's a bar in the city where I go to university that's in like a shopping mall. And inside the bar there's like music and quite loud music, but loud enough that it feels like a bar.
But then there's also seats like outside on the promenade, I guess you'd call it, or the balcony. And it's just a bit awkward because you just sit there and like people are walking past and doing their shopping stuff. I mean, obviously you go at night more, but so and yeah, I guess music anyway. Point is, I think those clubs look pretty cool and so nearly performs at the club.
And also there is another person there, some is there with her partner and is there with her employer or her employers partner in business.
And, and then there's another woman there at the other end of the table, at the other end of the day club. And who's played by Sharon Tate? I can remember her name in the film and then the singer that comes on before Neilly and ends up in a relationship with Sharon Tate. Yeah, and so that's that's like the free men woman of the film, we should have said right and sorry, it's about these like free. Oh, you did say that, didn't you?
Yeah, I did, uh, only get slightly corrupted.
So, yeah, basically they I mean, they, they all go to L.A. and they get corrupted by drugs and alcohol and stuff and but Tony gets in a bad accident at one point and loses the use of his legs.
Yeah. Um then I think Neily goes really downhill.
Sharon Tate's character has to do a French art film quote unquote.
Yeah. So yes, Sharon Tate, the guy that's singing to Sharon Tate in the bar she ends up with and they both moved to L.A. and but then it turns out he's got a genetic disease and he loses movement. He loses movement in his legs and also starts losing his memory and self. And which and then then she has to send him to sanitarium, which was not a thing I'd really been aware of other than talk about sanitariums, I never quite I think it's just like back when they didn't have, like, a proper cure for an illness, but you couldn't.
Exactly. Just like a place for a dump.
Exactly. So I for some reason in my head, a sanitarium was like a kind of asylum thing.
And so that's one that's more like the main context in which they're brought up is a like a character will be like, yeah, but like they won't need the new medical help available. Exactly.
So it's basically a long term illness place. And yeah. So he ends up in the sanitarium and then in order to pay for keeping him in Centerin, Shantee, as you said, has to do this French art film. And for a guy that really doesn't sound very French, I don't know what you feel about his accent, but I liked it.
It was very common.
He was like, we must go over to, uh, to France and film my art film.
And I don't know if he said due laws at one point he sounded like he would.
Yeah, he's he's definitely not a French guy, but he's pretty funny. So so she has to go over and film this porno or French art film and and then it's well, it's said it's an art film is revealed later on and back in America, it's like on all the porn theaters, it's like a nude nude picture. So that's that's what happens to her, happens to Sharon Tate. And we can talk about what happens right at the end later and let's not spoil it.
OK, so then Neily and just basically start taking a bunch of drugs and drinking a lot because she's got a lot of pressure and she's in a lot of films and stuff. And basically, yeah, she, she, she goes really downhill. And and in the meantime, Anne has got a job in advertising as the Gilmore Girl was it or the Gillion girl that somebody that she basically she says she's a Mieko, she's a makeup girl. And that's a bit you were talking about earlier where the guy says that he needs he needs natural beauty and that no one's heard of.
That's a guy so so she gets a job in all these makeup adverts and then she eventually moves to L.A. and she finds that nearly is gone so far downhill and then nearly dumps her boyfriend that she had back in New York. And because she's being assaulted, basically she's just being real. So, um, and and has left her partner. Right, because he moved to L.A..
Yeah. He went to become a writer. Yeah.
And then they meet again in L.A. and then they leave again and then they write at the end they have another little little fling. And and then she says that she doesn't need him right at the very end. So that's her story. And really ends up in the same sanitarium as the Chantay husband, whose name I can't remember. And then she recovers, um, gets a job in a musical again and then goes downhill again. And she ends up in an alleyway crying, saying, why don't they love me or something like that.
Yeah. So that's pretty sad for her. Uh, Sharon Tate dies because she is meant to have one of her breasts removed because she's got cancer and she thinks that her body is the only currency she has.
And so she kills herself. Hmm. Yes, so it's very tragic for the three girls. I would also perhaps say incredibly melodramatic and stupid, right? So just to be clear, the very first like Valley of the Dolls, the very first line of Beyond the Valley of the Dolls is this is not a sequel to the doll. That's right. So the relevance that Valley of the Dolls has to be on, as I will now be calling it, is that beyond is satirizing really a genre of Hollywood films, but one that Valley of the Dolls is emblematic of.
And this is sort of like very melodramatic, slightly exploitative, like isn't Hollywood such as corrupting? Yes, well, that's the big thing is town.
The big theme is that showbiz is just like the worst in both Hollywood and Broadway or just like the worst places to be.
And so, like I've heard the book version of all of those a bit better. I think apparently the film ended up being like slightly weird cuts and sort of ends up being a bit disjointed.
Yeah, well, yeah, that's keep going on. But I've got a point about that. Yeah. Yeah.
Well yeah. I would just say it's unforgettable. I know you're fond of misery porn. Yeah. You know, maybe I. Yeah.
So she's out there so that thing you that's the thing you're saying about it sort of being weirdly cut together. I kind of. I don't know how to describe it, it's like it's over a long time, right? And like I mean, apparently it's supposed to be set over like 20 years, which obviously isn't. Oh, wow. Get it. Yeah. So, well, OK, I'll talk about that later. But basically it's set over a series of years and there's all these big jumps of like a few months or even a year and where there's like a really short montage of something and then suddenly you've just moved ahead ages.
And that made it kind of hard to follow exactly what the relationships were. And then also it really felt like the relationship between the three main girls was not showing until very late.
Like it's never it's never really shown that they are friends. And then suddenly you have these specific moments like these very emotional, remember back in the day moments, but you don't see back in the day you see the on and nearly know each other. And, you know, you barely even see that. They know Sharon Tate's character and they keep their own stuff. Really? Yeah. They all keep to keep to yourself as far as the film shows.
And and then and then it just implied that in these big breaks that the film is not showing us that they formed this friendship. Whereas I feel like for this film, what you really needed was like the first section of them coming together and forming their friendship, the middle section when they move apart and then they end section where like they sort of come together and the tragic stuff happens as well. And then, like, you'd have this this whole story going.
But instead you just end up with these, like, random, disjointed moments where you're like, wait, these these characters know each other or like these. I don't know.
It just it feels it felt really weird because they reminisce about what's been. But you don't see the thing that's been. You know, that was my real feeling about but you need to sort of an emotional norm.
I just I feel like it's I feel like it's a problem that you can have if you if you do a film like this is set over a long period. But but as far as being so over a long period, the stuff that you're filming is like very specific moments. Like I feel like if you're doing film over a long period and you either need to show like and bits of that period that are like the same distance apart roughly, so that you can kind of get an idea of it, or you have to be very thoughtful about what you do show to establish what's happened, or it feels like this just missed out a lot of key moments in these people's lives.
Yeah, I feel an issue with films as an art of medium or at least for maybe about, say, like an inherent weaknesses that they aren't as good as definitely compared like a novel, for example. Right. During that time, because it's just was just restricted in what you can show just in terms of like time. Yeah, quite hard to sort of I think you need filler.
If you're showing the passage of time, you need to show an awful lot of nothing like the Irish, like the Irishman, for example, which I. Yeah, exactly. Which I really, really like. And I mean, you look at it's free and a bit hours long and they need to be it needs to be to to make sure that you're aware of the relationships between the characters and what they're referring to, like this film. I mean, I'm not in any way saying this film should be longer because I think it is dull enough already, as you've said.
But and to to work as a as a narrative and to make the audience understand the relationships and what's going on, I think it would need to be longer.
Yeah, that's fair for me. And yeah. All right. Well, so I got say about this film and there are there are there are quite a lot of nice and editing montages and a couple bits of nice cinematography and stuff like in no way I would say it's a bad film. I quite like to add it from that kind of aspect. And like there's a there's a training montage of Neily when she decides that she's not going to give up and she's going to she's going to learn how to be a singer and learn how to be this.
And it's like this montage of her doing all these different things, which I liked. And there's a couple of other bits like that as well. And so, I mean, for me, so I would probably I might change his ring at the end once you've compared both films, but I would probably rate this one like watch it, it's on. And because I do feel like it, I do feel like it had good moments in it. And and the overall story was was not a bad one by any means.
And I do think it suffered in quite a lot of places.
I would go so far as to say to avoid this, this is easily my least favorite film done so far. Oh, really? Oh yeah. Easily. Oh no. I guess previously it was too like the hero, which even then I would say was like a fine. So yeah. All right. Fair enough. So beyond the valley are you done the valley. A little.
Yeah, I think so. I mean I you know. Oh I see. And Sharon Tate and so obviously she's erm once upon a time in Hollywood and or not she's obviously not in it but she's played Margot Robbie.
This film. And if, if once one time in Hollywood is accurate then it really feels like she's just playing herself in this film. Know that makes sense. There were a lot moments that feel similar to once upon a time in Hollywood and like there's a bit where she's sitting watching the film and she's like, hmm, smiling. And there was another moment account of what it was after my head. But there's another bit where I was like, oh, that kind of felt like and once more time in Hollywood.
So I'm I'm wondering if wondering if Tarantino is basing it off what she was actually like or basing off what she was like in films.
I mean, yeah, I was going to say we were talking before Michael Caine about how like particularly at that period of time, like actors were sort of selling a persona. Yeah. You know, it's like one character they do. And I think obviously Tarantino wouldn't have known the real difference. And I don't think even if he did, he would have based on her. Yeah, I think so. I think yeah. The Sharon Tate and spend time in Hollywood, I would say is pretty clearly like an interpretation of.
Yeah. So yeah.
But I mean you could, you could say that persona could be accurate. I mean it's hard to see. I don't I don't think maybe. Obviously, it's going to be on tonight, but maybe I mean, I don't think real people. Well, I mean, that's that's something about both these films is that people don't really feel that real in them. And I would say. Anyway, let's move on to beyond. OK, so beyond Valley of the Dolls, I say, is a sort of satire of the whole genre.
Yeah, I was thinking I would describe the relationship between the two as being like the Valley of the Dolls with someone saying to you, you're wrong. Beyond the Valley of the Dolls would be someone going in your room doing like a silly voice.
Yeah. Basically Beyond Valley of the Dolls is almost a remake of Valley of the Dolls. Everything is just so unbelievably exaggerated. Yeah. And ends up becoming something completely different and really genuinely kind of unique and interesting.
Yeah, definitely. I mean, that's that's the thing on it set in Chile. It's like quite why you should watch this and it's just like totally unique to something which. Yeah, it definitely so it's it's also by 20th Century Fox and I know there was a whole controversy around the naming of the I assume you saw that as well on the Internet about being sued. Yeah. So like the they signed the writer of the first one on for a sequel and fired her and then kept the name and made this like parody satire thing, which is a pretty shitty move maybe.
Or maybe not.
You know, the you know what this is I'm very rarely on the like, oh, we should be making sacrifices hot for, you know, this case is justified. Yeah.
So, I mean, OK, so before before we go into we can talk about the disclaimer at the start. And so it talks about it not being a sequel, but it also says it deals with the same issues, but in a different time period, which kind of confused me because these films came out three years apart. And yeah, the Bekaa Valley of the Dolls starts in 1945. But it's pretty clear in the film that it's very much set in the late 60s.
So I'm not sure how much difference it could possibly be between like the late 60s and the 70s and early 70s.
Beyond the Valley of the Dolls is about a time period that's never actually existed. That's what they're trying to say right there.
Also, the Austin Powers.
I was about to say, yeah, is the universe the Austin Powers came? It absolutely is. I for that, because it's like the Austin Powers of its time, like it's it's parodying its own time. It's nice. Yeah.
Yeah. So yeah. I suppose just in terms of that particular genre of like. Yes. You know those films I like nostalgic for like times that's never happened. 50 the 50s Hollywood once upon a time in Hollywood for example. This is like part of that genre that is contemporaneous to the time.
What was the what was the other film I watched quite recently that was had hippies and it was kind of similar, like they go to part in smoke weed. And so I can't remember they make almost everything we wants to go.
That's true. That's true. It wasn't what it wasn't for this.
I'm sure it was eventually. But, you know, it is surprisingly common theme that really captured the public's eye.
And so I say, as I said for this one, my notes are handwritten. So I might be a place less.
I have to actually go. I will actually attempt to do what song was playing, paying rapt attention to it.
You're much better at the plot summary tonight. Thank you.
So it's basically using the basic, like structure. Like if I do a five sentence description of the Valley of the Dolls plot, it's the same. And so it's about three women there in a rock band. That's neat. Yeah. And their manager is like, you know, one of those late marriages is just like my friend from high school or something like he's not, you know, an actual position of a heart or a boyfriend even. Yes.
He's he's dating or at least smacking on the head. So they go the lead singer.
I think generally the term they go for, it goes a long way to go for it.
Yeah, I think it's nice that. So they go to L.A. because the lead singer has a rich and that's sort of come into an inheritance and she's from like a disowned side of the family. Yeah. Which is otherwise died out. I'm sort of going to mooch off of her and they do that for easily. Beyonce like. Yeah. You know, you're entitled to a third of this million dollars. But what's really going on is that this is their opportunity to get in touch with the L.A. scene.
That's right. And this is sort of really the film is just about this fictionalized version of late 60s L.A. They go to the weirdest party, describe it. Yeah, they go to the. But this is apparently happened every single night.
Yeah. So this is think of how to describe the to get the vision of L.A. in this film is very horny all the time.
Yeah, I mean, yeah, horny and high on weed and naked boys. Naked hippie, copious nudity in this film. Yeah. Which is interesting.
Bridge Valley of the Dolls, which had, I think, one sex scene in it, and it was like the tamest thing in the world, whereas this one, I genuinely think this might be the most like, risque film I've ever seen that have an action for this one.
Yeah, could be. Could be. I mean, you've seen the carry on films, though. I mean, they're pretty. They are.
They are in a small seaside postcard. Yeah. Yeah, that's true.
Whereas apparently the director of this one used to do like low budget. Yeah. Right. You. Yeah I've definitely heard of it, but I didn't recognize any of her films. But they do.
They do. Apparently I was looking around and saw my articles. I think this was a Criterion Collection article and they were saying that there's a cut hidden cut of an X rated cut of this film or really for for a less than R rating. That's what they were going for. But then they got an R rating anyway. No, no, no. Were before R rating when they got an X rating anyway. But like he filmed a lot of scenes that there were like R and X rated versions.
Right. What they were getting an X rating anyway. It was like, OK, I only use the X rated versions of these scenes of the studio were like, we need to ship now. So there's a hidden version of this film that we'll never see the light of day awesome. Which is even more explicit.
We should so we should start and crowdfunding campaign to lobby them to release it might be sick and.
Yeah. You know who co-wrote this film. Roger Roger of Siskel and Ebert fame. Yeah, I read I don't know if you read it as well. He wrote an article on it, like just talking about his own experience. I'm quite proud of it, which I'm very glad.
Did you did you read the article or did you just see the article? You did not read the OTTERNESS. Well, he's talking about, like, how he went to a university and he was like part of this film still hold up. Well, parts of it were kind of writing it on the fly. So like ice the theory of foreshadowing for anything, partly because we didn't know what's going to happen.
Yeah, that's true. And yeah. All right. Yeah. So like, yeah. So everyone's warning. Everyone is everyone's naked. Everyone is constantly like laughing with each other and like it's very, very free love. Like everyone is sleeping with everyone else and people don't make a big deal about it. Well some do though. So some do.
Some like sensible or not sensible, but like very like love is sacred. People are like fucking which is pretty fun.
I think it makes sense. But they're drawing these lines whether they are like in the even in the context of them living in this sort of cultural bubble. But again, it never existed.
It never existed, allegedly, according to Jeanne Meserve, born in the 90s.
Yeah, yeah. I agree with that. I just don't believe that this would ever happen.
No, no, neither. Neither.
So I would describe this as like sort of a vision of Hollywood from like the darkest recesses of the mind of like the most conservative old person. Right.
Like sit in the back of like a sovereign state with the sole person, be horny as well.
There would be closeted horny. They would never admit.
But they would they would be imagining all this stuff whilst they would go on their very long rants to their children who are watching films. How is evil? And then it would eventually turn into a sexual fantasy and they would would have to go to the bathroom and choke themselves.
They well, must be exactly. Yeah, I got it. Yes, it's late.
And that's why Roger Ebert wrote this film. Yeah.
I will say that this does feel definitely like a film that only someone who had watched like a truly disgusting amount of movies would make those. Yeah. Like the comedy in this film really does rely on you.
Like knowing that it's as ridiculous as it is if you know, I mean, it's very Austin Powers, the teenager is Tarantino Coen brothers that can well, like Austin Powers and Fantino, like they'll always like when they do jokes like these and they do like the do wink to camera, or at least they like this always like a signal.
No, this one is just straight up. Well this is just like is played straight.
If you don't get it then this is just going to be a very weird and confusing time for you.
It's kind of like a is kind of like the libation Scooby Doo films. I no one has a very similar energy to the warning, so I'm thinking like the the ones really Daphne's in like the lowest cut top ever. And like, yeah, I kind of think, yeah, I'm looking at the pictures now. And if you're if you listen to a podcast, just look up libration Scooby Doo and look at the images. You know, literally, it's like watching this film.
I'm sure, you know, this was like this like superabundant Disturbia. But the live action Scooby Doo film, at least the first one, was originally supposed to be like an R rating comedy sort of parody thing. And then, like at the last minute, they changed it to pop friendly. Right. Those are vestiges of that. But they are I love that film.
I need to watch that again. It's so good.
I've never seen it.
We should do we should go and talk especially to the two Scooby Doo films, because they're incredible.
Right. Go ahead. No. OK.
So, again, the it's really about the three girls on their manager. So I guess they're four characters in the song.
Yeah, well, I mean, it's a pretty girls because as I would say, the man is one of the main sub characters of which there are like four or five.
And so there's this whole deal with girls and and she's trying to ask for more money. But there's a lawyer on the side who's like, yeah, I also know also known as Jonquières from Eyewitness 1989.
Yeah, yeah. And so she starts sleeping with like a guy is really like hanging around. Like if you got the money, the. Yeah.
He, he, you know, he looked like why we're talking about like smart.
I'm super annoying. Oh.
I was thinking that he looked like a combination between Shaggy and Fred from the libration CBD bear or he looked a bit like the guy and you know, you know, that video of the like this isn't a beach. This is a bathtub, you know. Oh, yeah. You can't leave that guy.
So, yeah, I'm imagining that these are mostly porn actors in this film. What you. Oh yeah.
Johnny Johnny here you only hear this. So I was thinking up the main cast. All right. And we'll play a game I guess. Guess how they were described in Wikipedia. I actually totally read who plays the lead singer or head singer.
She said something about her breasts, an English pin up model was her description. All right. And Cynthia Meyers. Porn actress, Playboy magazine's Playmate of the Month for the December 1990. OK.
And that's that's the end of the game. Oh, and the Eddie Williams was married to Ross Meyers. That's what the rossner that's the one that plays the porn star. The one I see a porn star in the film and. Yeah, yeah, she was married to Rosemary so.
Oh cool. Uh, happy for.
And it also stars Marcia McBroom so I couldn't find any information about. Yeah, yeah, so there's this whole scandal about money. Yeah, and she ends up sleeping, sleeping with a lawyer to keep him quiet. Yeah, I think they give focus to the answer. So she fires them. Yeah. And then that's just kind of resolved and not really touched on this very much. Drops plot threads. It's more interesting to we'll find something more interesting to do is to be honest is an attitude.
I can comment. Yeah. Then the lead guitarist I guess should be. I'm sorry I forgot of people's names. She's like not into this at all. Yeah. Casey that's it. Yeah. So she goes to one party and it's like I'm not enjoying myself and then sort always spends the rest of the time sitting at home you know. Yeah.
Well done for her. Well she does get knocked up.
I was about to say I was going to so Harris just sort of he was the lead singer's boyfriend and got sort of rebuked by her as she sort of gets involved with these new people in this new culture. And then he gets like he has this thing with, like before an actress because she's super into him immediately and he's not in a square. Yeah, but they do start a relationship and she refuses to have sex.
And the bed always must be somewhere in which he gets very tired of eventually. Yeah. And then she then moves on. Yeah, then she says she feels him very nice word for homosexual. Yeah, there's a lot of that in this, wasn't there? Oh yeah. Yeah, I'll just. Just a tangent for a second. Everyone in this film talks like the weirdest. If you imagine like Shaggy from Scooby Doo, the topic like turned up like a hundred times in terms of like the hippie talk.
Yeah, I've got a different language.
I've got a list of my favorite lines here, but I'll save it for later and finish apocalypses first. Anyway, I also I realized I just told you to finish and start talking. I apologize, but the dialogue is very Shakespearean in parts and not just not just the guy that's meant to be and in other parts as well.
I thought, yeah, just like a manager guy. His name's like Zemi. Simon has really big sideburns. I'm guessing is the reason that both you and I immediately thought of Austin Powers because he's basically the same as I suppose not as Austin Powers, but like he's got very similar hair.
Always the I was like, oh yeah, this is just like so he's he's very Shakespearian and like everything.
And apparently apparently that guy was actually a Shakespearean actor and which explains why he's so.
And good at it. Yeah, anyway, so in terms of stuff, it's not very politically correct. Yeah. So Harry Harris goes to Casey's flat late one night and they sort of drink together a bit. Yeah. And then, like, she does agree to sleep with him. But then we find out the next morning that she fell asleep and he raped her. And she's not great and is handled not very tastefully, I think, on purpose as a joke.
Please come you, Jamie.
There's an ambulance coming for me, so I'm taking you to the Sanitorium Sanitarium.
So I think it's worth just pointing out that this film escalates a lot over time and the main singer's story ends a lot faster than the others, which is why it seems a lot more grounded. And what I'm about to say sounds completely insane.
Yeah. So what happens is that Harris having been rebuked for, you know, that timing or bad thing he did barely matters. He kills himself live on the air whilst they're playing a nice song. He tries to sorry. He goes off about the rafters like Phantom of the Opera style and then Unger's. And then there's loads of fake blood everywhere. Yeah. And the guy's like, keep the camera.
You guys, like, keep rolling, keep you'll get a good. Do you understand.
So I wrote that bit and I was like, oh cool. They've put him up in the rafters as if he's like they're listening when he's actually watching on TV. And then he jumped in. I was like, oh shit, no, he's actually there up in the rafters.
And he's just, you know, you were still underestimating the stuff. I really was.
I was like I was like, oh, that's a really cool, artsy way of showing him watching on TV. And then he jumps in like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh. So he and sort of sumo's valuables in the way ends up becoming a paraplegic. You can't move, that's all. And this is where I had singalongs, her lesson about whatever she should be with him because he's in a bad way. And, you know, wouldn't that be nice. Yeah. And and then Casey decides that she's pregnant with Paris's baby.
She decides that she's pregnant. Well, now she is trying to keep the baby. Yeah. Which her designer pal or golfing pal says, hey, that's insane. That's your rapist's baby. Why you want to keep it? And she's like, yeah, I guess it is insane, I guess.
And I'm a lesbian now as well.
Now, that comes later. And in fairness, fresh out of it. Very well. I don't think it's fair to say. So then she's like, OK, well, I know a doctor who can help you out. And so, no, I don't want to get an abortion. And she's like, Are you sure? And she goes, and I'm like, hard cuts to the abortion. And then she gets the doctor comes. He's like a weird German guy.
He's got Coke Bottle Islanders. Yes. Don't worry. They are this small part of this.
And she's like, no, she screams cut. So the cut to Black Heart abortion scene. Yeah. After this, she. She starts a relationship with her designer, the happy lesbians, and I say, like from the beginning, the first thing for each other, so it's not like hard. So, you know, it's hard.
I was just I was just leaving and they decided, hey, you know what would be a fun time? Let's go to Zaman's for a little special party psychodelic party. So it's them to Ziemann and the rich people sleeping with the head singer Lance, who is now living a life. So they take drugs in a very cool scene. Yep, nice and easy. And then they all like, you know, they pair off Lance and Ziemann. Yeah.
And the two girls and they sleep together and you know, Ziemann, they're all in sort cosplay. The girls aren't really into it. But, you know, Ziemann certainly is. And he's saying, you know, I'm superwomen, please call me superwomen. Yeah. And then Lance, eventually I was like, OK, OK, J.K., I'm not actually that interested in you. Can we please stop? Yep. And then Ziemann says you don't rebuke superwomen or something like that and ties them up the bedroom.
And then he said, OK, let's stop. Yeah. Then like he says, I am not Skumanick, I am super woman. And then he chairs open his outfit to reveal his breath. Yeah. So she's a cross dresser. Yeah. And he takes out a verbal sword and he starts playing with it and then he decapitates Lance to the start of the 20th Century Fox logo. This is a very important detail. Yeah. So blood is everywhere.
He holds up Lance's head. At this point. Casey has sort of wandered away from our former girlfriend and she sees him holding the severed head aloft. Lance sticks a gun in the girlfriend's mouth and blows out so I can see man in super Casey tries to escape, but she is also killed by Ziemann.
You forgot because were man kills the Nazis. Oh, yeah.
Ziemann has like a bartender and it's mostly just chill and he just kind of hangs out in the zone thinking almost the music.
He's he was on my favorite coaches. Yeah. At the end of the film, he shows up at the party in the Nazi uniform and he does like before Heil Hitler thing.
Which demanders backed him to be fair, demanders back.
There's there's mutual understanding that CNN is told in stress the Nazi. Yeah, so it is also killed that guy, that guy has an interesting story, and so what's his name? I wrote the name down. Oh no, I didn't write his name down. Apparently, he got cast as a Nazi a lot, actually, in films because he looks Germanic and. But then he actually German. No. And he's from the Midwest, I guess, which is what I heard.
I don't know. But anyway, he got cast in Nazi a lot, and then one of his last film roles was as an allied soldier.
And it was like a big redemption, perhaps my not for roles and. Yeah, yeah. But he gets stabbed by Zeeman in this and well.
Stress and it seems so. Yeah. All the remaining main cast members at that point go down to the man's house. What's very important is that while one of their friends says Help Ziemann is trying to murder me, they take the time to pack up Harris's wheelchair properly and help them in the car.
I was I was thinking in wheelchairs and I don't want to be able to see her. But wheelchair is not the most efficient vehicle in an emergency situation such as this.
Know, it was a very funny guy. And it was. Yeah, it was.
Oh, this is my actual favorite dog on the phone with. I just say, even though I have to go back, is that immediately after our house is in the sanitarium, there's a scene of him playing chess. I mean, it goes checkmate. I can't move. And that made me laugh.
That was good. Yeah. There was some good, there were some good lines in it. So should I should I go on to my.
Well let me just finish off. I finish. Yep. So everyone's at this point, Harris gets the feelings back in his leg and everyone's a bit sad for a while about Casey and stuff like for maybe 10 whole seconds and then says I can leave again. And then I it's like I love you. And that's the end of the film to the film. They have a weapon.
Now, the member of the I'd say, Jamie, you've not even talked to the other member of the band.
This is because she does not her arc is entirely separate from the entire rest of the film.
Yeah, it's a bit yeah. I think it's a joke, but I might not it might not be that she immediately with like an almost magnetic attraction, starts dating the only other black member of the cast. Yeah. At that point, yeah. I think it's a joke.
I mean, you never know I guess if films from this thing, if I come out like I know a year ago, I would immediately be like, oh yes, clearly it's quite funny, but you can like Haveli just cast like two black people and put them together like that.
I think given given them a totally separate subplot so they don't have to appear in the rest of the film with the white people because that's kind of what it feels like.
I mean, I don't want to. Oh yeah.
So she starts dating like this law student. She's very nice. Nice, very nice. But then it's very important to remember that in this film, everyone has like a sexual version of ADHD and cannot concentrate on any thing for any length of time whatsoever.
So because the law student is studying that week and sleeping with the heavyweight boxing champion of the world, I think his name is of the world. His name is Brandy Black. Yeah. Which is everything. A joke is also interesting, I.
And then, you know, the law student walks in while they're sleeping together after they slept together, it's like what's going on here? And then she's like, I'm sorry. I'm saying please forgive me. Yeah, it's like, oh, OK, fine. But then he's still going to get his licks in on the heavyweight boxing champion and then heavyweight boxing champions in his car. Yeah. And he's standing by his car saying, I'm not going to move until, you know, you can fuck me.
And then he just runs them over.
Yeah. Or the aggressively. Really aggressively. And so what it is, I'm trying to visualize it with my hands. This is a podcast. Yeah. He runs into his legs, so he flops on top of the roof of the booth. The hood of the car was it. Yeah. Yeah.
And it's like Robin, because one of those big like Americans didn't. And I started having aggressively round in circles trying to throw him off onto the windshield. Yeah. Yeah.
So, again, very I think this is like really the point where that is really the point where the film really starts to go into like it's 11 murders.
Yeah. Yeah. And it's great. OK, so yeah.
So they also get married, they get married, everything's forgiven and she brightens the box.
It comes back and then beats up.
She finds him with a knife piece of the boyfriend, she ends with a knife and then he realizes he's fallen from grace and he leaves. And so when I hear my favorite lines.
Yes. Wow. OK, and wills are just scraps of paper. Is that true, Jamie, as a lawyer? Basically, any scrap of paper can be a will, which you may not really like. Well, it depends on how little evidence there is.
Yeah, I know. I know. The point of the statement is that, like, they can kind of pinpoint the one.
That statement is that wills don't count for anything, which is not true, is it?
Is not is it not an element of truth that they can be interpreted in many ways and people can often take advantage of specific things and stuff like that? No, I don't know. You're the you're the expert. What did you say?
Sorry, is it's not it's not the case that, like, they can be manipulated and so. It's just been whoever it is, I guess. Now, so in Scots law, at least, you need to give. I think it's a third of it ultimately goes to your spouse and the third goes automatically to your children of what you own. And no matter what you write in your well, you can't do anything about that. It's happening. And then like a third left that you can sort of split up by yourself if you want.
And then what they'll do is that you'll usually have a will that's like being signed and notarized properly. The requirements for writing. You need to be signed on every page and there needs to be a witness. Right. Isn't that big a requirement like the case then they'll go off of even if it's just like a piece of notepad, like in your paper. And it's like, well, if it's from that note that you're intending to leave something to someone like if it says like a note to self must leave £100 to Duncan or something things.
But, you know, just just there's a podcast count.
I will now an audio recording sign over all intellectual property rights to the Golden podcast, this podcast to write in perpetuity forever is yours. I have no ownership.
Is that legally binding? No, we haven't written it down, but is it so you saying that you're going to give me a hundred pounds on a podcast, it's not legally binding now. Yeah, because Batmen. Oh, Jamie, OK. Do you need to go read my mind? So the viewers, if you're disturbing you, Jamie, you're the star. I'm sorry. OK, OK.
So anything else to say about Will's are going to be on two minutes here now is it.
I'm a capitalis baby, which is my favorite. That comes later. And so my next one is just a very simple. Oh groovy thanks. Oh yeah. And that's I mean, not as a specific quote is not something that stands out, but I think it just gives an idea of how people I will say credit where it's you like even a show of mostly like a pinup girl, like the actress.
And this is really, really good in the hippie.
Yeah. And she I mean, I think to forget with this one that she sounded a bit English, but, you know, she definitely plays an American like hippie rocker girl. Yeah, well and OK. The next one was someone said liquor's kind of square these days, huh. And then someone else said it's the same as grass. Depends how you use it now. And once again, you've got the use of square, which unfortunately has gone out of fashion.
And it's coming back. I promise you can be therapy. Yeah. As to exactly I said all the time and everyone needs my hands off.
OK, this is this one's probably my favorite and you're a groovy boy. I'd like to strap you on some time.
Oh yeah. Is a bunch of times. Well, the porn star says it to Harris and then the the random old lady that's Zaman's party says it to her random old man, husband, boyfriend, partner, guy. And it's also the party. I don't know if you've made it clear enough how weird this party was.
It's they go through this is that it's quite hard to talk about the atmosphere. Like right now.
They seem to believe they arrive in Hollywood, dance like you want to come to a party. They walk in. There's like a new a new dancer, just like, no, no.
It's really it's like no Knewton. Seventy five percent orgy, no new dancers and like a stripper that's been hired, just like someone has decided to take off their clothes and dance floor and dance. And there's there's like an old couple just walking by and he look fucking mental. And, you know, the bartender, they don't dress like a Nazi, but you know, Nancy and. Yeah, okay.
No, he doesn't look like a Nazi. That's not true. That's pretty normal.
He looks kind of like Hitchcock. And who's not nice. Yeah, I'm OK. My next favorite line was the CAPITALIS one. So the the lawyer says to her, like, you're a fucking hippie. And then she goes, I thought you'd recognize a hippie. I'm a capitalist baby. I work my capitalist on somebody else. Yeah. Yeah.
Which is great. I honestly maybe that I'm really into it too much, but like, I feel like that's sort of a critique of how superficial her and the lifestyle is, as it were. Yeah. Once I would say, I think because it takes away from being like an actual coherent ideologies and just being like being a brand of lipstick or exactly.
Being a Gilmore Girls Gillion Girls lipstick color. Mm hmm. That's right.
And would you like something stronger? Yes, but they don't serve it in bars the way they talk about weed or perhaps even stronger drugs. And then the boxer says to Martha, is there a name, Martha?
Maybe the African-American member of the band. And the boxer says he a brother. She goes right on. Then he goes, and it's my duty to look after you for him. And then they go and dance and then they have sex to subjugate.
And then my last year requote was there are just freaks and hirko freaks and everyone's a freak. What you need is grass or down or something. Which, you know, is interesting. What are your thoughts on that, do you think everyone's a freak? No part of this film, really that I know, I mean, it's a party, I suppose so that's that's I mean, that's everything I actually had written typed up there and just written down here.
And yeah, I think in terms of talking about the film, this is very much one of those films where it's really about a place and the atmosphere around like what happens in it, which is very good. It doesn't mean it's quite difficult, but yeah, very colorful.
Would you say the first one is more accurate or not accurate? Obviously, we don't know, but would you say it feels more grounded? I think just about anything in the entire world, obviously, obviously, obviously, Jamie, but you know what I mean, and no, not more grounded. Do you think it feels grounded, full stop or question, John Valley or the original. The original now. But more, if more so than beyond.
I don't think either of them feel grounded, but I think at least in and beyond the Valley of the Dolls is obviously intentional. As I would say, the original is just too melodramatic, right?
Yeah. The original was trying to trying to be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I could see it saying yeah.
You know, like how they say that like but at least mature thing you can do is want to be mature, like you know how little kids tend to be like grown ups and stuff. Yeah. That's the vibe I got from Valley of the Dolls.
Right. Whereas this one is just like fuck maturity. It's great.
Yeah. Well it's really it's really saying fuck you for being so self serious all the time. Yeah.
So so this film for me it was, it was really like once upon a time in Hollywood and like Hail Caesar, that kind of film. No, I would say no, no, I'm going to say no. I think those films are a very much praising their errors, particularly hail Caesar. Once upon a time in Hollywood, you may make a case, but I would say that Beyond the Valley of the Dolls is really. Condemning attitudes to terror, but certainly not defending it, I would say, OK, I would say maybe if you watch the film, I don't think it really stands for anything.
It's just sort of a cynical no to what's going on around the. So, yeah, was I would say that once upon a time when Hollywood stands up for things are, you know, important and relevant hail, Caesar stands up for something was dumb. But they do you know, they are intent on defending their defending the wrong word once upon a time. But they are. It's critically engaging with their visions of the time. I believe that, all right.
I mean, I guess I guess I was thinking more about, like, the ending. Oh, yeah, the build up. The build up to the. Lined up at Hopkins and Hail Caesar. No, no, no, no. With one another, with hail, Caesar is more just the the. The blue example I've not seen, Hail sees it for a while, so either it's not I quite like it, I remember quite like it, but I liked at the time I thought it was unfairly maligned.
But like right now there are films where, like, you enjoy the experience of watching them and then you don't really think about it. Yeah, and their films are like I would actually say I think this is like the actual experience of watching Valley of the Dolls, like up until the last maybe half hour or so, I thought I'm standing somewhere very professional. But like it's not necessarily a laugh a minute sort of thing. It's just a really funny image.
Yeah, well, and that sort of thing that I think is going to stick with me going forward. So I would think that that's what gives its value.
Yeah. Yeah. I Fosgate. Yeah, I definitely let me see, let me look at my notes here.
The editing was very, very striking to so very aggressive, very fast and very random. And it didn't follow any editing rules as far as I could tell.
The bit where they're talking about L.A. at the beginning. Oh, I love that. I love that song. L.A. at the beginning. Yeah. Yeah. It reminds me a lot of, like, you know, pyrolysis.
Good film to do my one classy film reference and you know, but now you say that it did remind me of Godard.
Yeah. It's not one specific I think. I'm pretty sure it doesn't. There's other films as well, but it's like that thing he does. But when he does it, it's like pretty gentle. You know, it's supposed to be like sort of a meandering conversation. It's just like this was very slow down, bang, bang. It was so so to give to give context the right.
It's right at the start when the lead singer Kelly says to Harris, which Muttley and she's giving all the positives for it and he's giving all the negatives. And alongside that, there's there's a montage, very fast montage of images that vaguely relate to what they're saying. And then right at the end, like, well, let's do it. And then it cuts to that. Yeah, like the like Indiana Jones style map. And what's the car driving?
I really thought I was like montage or two montages put together.
I really liked along the Valley of the Dolls. The original has a lot of songs and I don't really like any of them. And this is just a purely personal thing. But I will say that I like to be beyond the Valley of the Dolls soundtrack I like. I thought it was fun. It was a it's groovy time.
I didn't like either, particularly. Oh, to be honest, yeah. I personally I would say I preferred to be on vegetables. I agree with you there, but I wouldn't say I liked it particularly. A couple of the songs are quite catchy, but mostly I was like this.
I didn't really it wasn't ready for me, but I'm pretty sure that's supposed to be like purposely vague to us, I think against me. But I, I think so.
But, um, no, but yeah, I really like this film and yeah, there was sort of the editing initially. I find it very distracting. Just it it was so weird, the places that he decided to cut it. And just you know, obviously most films you watch are edited in a very classical manner.
And whenever you watch one is it is very distracting. But I stopped noticing it after, like, I don't know, twenty minutes. I probably I completely stopped watching it. And it was only later on and I remembered I was like at the start that was really weird. And then I kind of like came out the film for a minute and realized that it was still the same kind of cutting it weird moments and stuff, and it worked fine. So I think I think I think it was maybe a way to make the film flow faster, like someone someone will say something and an immediate response.
And like you'll see the person's reaction as a response is going on. And it's really, really felt like a way to make conversations and dialogue flow a lot faster and give this energy. Because, you know, the film is very energetic.
It's what it's supposed to be. Very disorientate. Exactly. Very.
I mean, you look at the L.A. montage of all the different images juxtaposed with each other, and you see that right from the start. And I think that I think that's moved from the Montargis into the whole film. And every single scene is edited like that. And I think it works really well for what, StarCrossed? Definitely.
So, uh, do you know much about the critical reaction to this film?
Like, um, I don't I know that the first one was commercially successful, but critically, not so much. Yeah, but I don't know.
This one was critically reviled. Uh, Gene Siskel, who was obviously related figure to Roger Ebert, gave it zero four stars, really. And he specifically referred to the possibility that it could be viable on purpose or, you know, satire. And even if it is still terrible. Wow. Unlike other critics at the time, I don't know why I mind them, but there still very negative against it. It was commercially still successful enough to be a hit.
I think it was over time. It was a slow burn, as it were. But what I found quite interesting was that, you know, about the sight and sound criticalness. From. So in two thousand and one site and sounded elsewhere like film critics voted on their best film. Oh, yes. Yes. Yeah. So quite interesting. And they updated every year. Now with the Dolls is number 89 on that list. All right. So beyond the Valley of the Dolls, not the original.
Right. Which I found quite interesting. Like I like to.
I wouldn't put it that I know, but I well, I don't know. The more I think about it and looking back on it, I did actually really like it.
I did. And I think my guess for how it like made its way onto the list is very, very unique, despite my exact guessing. Yeah, a lot less. But it's only eight points behind chevre. So I n I think it's. All right, or ahead of other things that are very good, although. I believe, yeah. Um. We also like Overington here, so something I wrote meant to be free. Is it the carrot?
The characters are very like stereotypical, but at the same time very interesting. Yeah. So I feel like you could quite easily fit them all into like specific stereotypes, but at the same time and they have enough like unique features and interesting viewpoints and they do some interesting stuff and and I feel like it really works that kind of the mix of stereotype with and the characters actually being fairly well written. Yeah.
Yeah. Um, yeah. So sorry. It's actually two corrections is actually the Village Village Voice. All right. Uh, eighty seven point ninety nine Denovo is a well, good old Saulo, uh, everyone's favorite film. Well, uh, you don't know about Solla. No. The Italian film with the teenage girls after each hit. Is that not two girls, one cup? No, that silo is a very arty film, Duncan. At least it's another human centipede.
Anyway, some things Valley of the Dolls, apparently beyond the valley of it also outranks, just to give some perspective, is above Suspiria, which is the above mean streets, bride of Frankenstein, Blade Runner, Star Wars, Nosferatu, masculine, feminine sleep and Julie Go Boating, Zolo and the Golden Coach. It's only a little below Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Carol Afu all about that Eve and latest vampires. And singing in the rain, hmm? So, yeah, I mean, these vampires were set.
It's a film from 1915. 19, 15 to 16, right? So I know how to do that.
Yeah, there's another film called Liz from Piers that we were discussing that came out in 1970. Yeah. All right. Well, she went to and the performance from 1970 on this because I was looking up, I believe there's performance and there's also the conformist, which we will probably be watching two weeks from now. So there's a little bit of foreshadowing for cool, interesting stuff.
Um, yeah. I don't see why people love this. I did like it.
The more the more I talk about it and think about it, the more I think I liked it.
That's the thing. I think it's one of those films where it's really more about less about the experience of watching it and more about the impression it leaves. Yeah, it actually reminds me of most other than the scene set in the 60s. And Austin Powers is probably Rocky Horror Picture Show, actually. Right. Specifically the beginning. Yeah. But speaking of that, this film's attitude toward gay people is interesting, I feel, because it is both very progressive and very not progressive.
Which which probably fits in with the time period. Yeah. So the two gay relationships and I think there's like one background, one in this film, and it's very clear that within the L.A. bubble, like it's not something that's frowned upon or anything. Yeah. Everyone's like aggressively by or pansexual basically. Yeah. And. But every single gay character in this film dies incredibly violently in the last five minutes of the film. So it's a very it would get it would get marked down to sort of bury your gaze because it does so and it does so with gusto, which is a shame because the relationship between Casey and her dress designer, other than the bit where the dress designer tells her to get an abortion, is actually quite yet quite complex and respectful to both of them.
Well, and also as a scary cross dresser, which is I'm sure I will see many, many.
Yes, I was I'm wondering about like trans representation because it's not always terrible, is it?
Now is he's also he's also not trans yet.
He's obviously in the context of the film. You can't really tell what is what the deal is in terms of their physical stress or trans or intersex or anything. But in the Roger Ebert article, he says he's a cross dresser, right?
No, but I mean, what I mean is the actor that plays in I'm pretty sure he's just a guy.
Oh. Oh, yeah. I so maybe not maybe as pregnancy. I don't know.
And one was because I know this, I don't mean to be weird about it that like in and George Lazenby is James Bond, villain Majesty's Secret Service and the transwoman as a Bond girl and that I really like. Yeah. She's like one of the background ones isn't like one of the main ones, but it's an interesting fact. Let me see if I can.
I mean, the article definitely and the Wikipedia definitely pertinence he. But I mean, that doesn't necessarily mean anything. Doesn't mean anything.
He's still alive. Apparently a lot of films called Zemun.
Are they. Yeah, I guess. Makes sense. I guess doesn't really matter. Well, I mean, QMI are for representation, but, I mean, it doesn't really matter if he's. Smarmy hearts expert and fencer. Yeah, regardless of anything else, he's not winning any prizes for good representation, no, no, and I don't know.
I can't see, um, yeah, I was looking at the back and say, oh, there we go. Yeah. John Lazaar does not sound. Not to be presumptuous. We are being quite presumptuous. Yeah, sorry. Who knows? It seems I mean, maybe I'm just being very respectfully sweet.
Well, that's the thing that I don't know. Doesn't seem. It isn't. My job doesn't matter, does it? Mm hmm. He I don't just want to hear about trivia. It's also, on the other hand, if you ask them here, yeah, he feels that his role wrecked his career as far as the box office that he feels got type to the freak.
Yeah, probably. Yeah, yeah. There you go.
So I find his character very annoying. And I like to. And I feel like.
I feel like people like that just annoy me are just the people, the people like them for no reason. Oh, maybe I just don't like popular people. That's true. You don't know that, but that's probably is. But I just like I do, I it's really, you know, I just find I find these people that are like, so, um.
Like, non grounded, I guess. Yeah, that's what it is like, no, not down to earth and like, you know, they're surrounded by people that are like buy into their character.
And whereas I prefer I prefer people that are just themself, you know.
Are you I guess that is some sort of I don't know. It's a tough one. Maybe I'm just jealous of popular people.
And this film ends with a really wonderful epilogue where I like the narrator, talks about like I was so weird I needed to learn.
And they're all they're all, like, striking this very delicate balance of, like, lessons that are there, if you like, look at the story in a certain way, but are also sound completely deranged given the material that's on display.
Yeah, I mean, that must have been at least mostly a joke. Oh, yeah, it's fantastic. So, I mean, we actually didn't talk about that.
So between Zeeman getting killed and Anhydrase getting his legs back and the three of them getting married, there's this like epilog bit with a random narrator comes out nowhere. Yeah. And it's like all the characters learned their lessons. Kelly learned X, Y, Z did it to do this.
But now he's like this seems kind of like all that stuff I try I remember which was the hardest lesson is that he should have learned not to live in yesterday. Yeah, he needs to live. And then I was like, I guess he was dwelling on the past. I guess he was also doing a lot of other shit, you know, that was there.
The weirdest lesson for me is like the overall lesson that they give is that you should be nice to other people. And but then one of the lessons is that the aunt was too nice and too trusting and. Oh, yeah, something else. And then like, I was nowhere. And then at the end is like, but you should be nice to everyone. And that's the real lesson of this film.
I know. But it was it was obviously all because I only lived on one layer of life.
Which is true. I mean that is actually true. I guess. I guess that's what I'm talking about. Yeah. It's like that that kind of person annoys me. I don't know. Yeah, like live on one, you're like, sure you can you can have a character, you can have a character that you put on for people and like, you can be an entertainer. Like, I do it sometimes. You know, if I had a few drinks, I'm hosting a party or something.
I definitely like put on a persona and like, you know, whatever. But like, when people are just like that constantly and, you know, don't know when to come back down to earth, you know, it just it kind of annoys me. Hmm. And but I mean, it's not it's not it's not like he's meant to be likeable, particularly at all bus fare.
So part of one thing I do feel that we're so I'm losing out on watching this film now is that I do. Part of me is wondering how much more or less outrageous it would have been.
Yeah, because like, one of the things I do kind of wish this film, at least what you're just pushed a little bit more and just I want to see the x ray, basically, because I think it could still have to be an even more ridiculous than it was in terms of its debauchery.
But yeah, so I don't know, like wondering if maybe it was just like as a modern you are a bit more desensitized and maybe I like maybe like this would be more than another show.
Yeah. Like the graphic ending. And I mean, obviously, there's no way we're talking about that. That's like an example of that where maybe at the time I think yeah.
I think it would be more shocking at the time. So it's now just I think the special effects being a bit. Schlocky, really, Ashleigh adds to it. Yeah, the blood in this film is sort of old timey blood, which is clearly the wrong color. And I don't ever looked like that. Like it's not like like I can look at my own blood. I know what color is. Yeah.
So why do I people nowhere. Yeah, definitely.
So and what would you rate it? I'm with you as far as to say buy it. I think it's really interesting and unique. I think that this film I'm almost certain that I am certain this film is someone's favorite film out there. Yeah, there's one for him. This is fantastic. It's not me, but I genuinely think it's very interesting and very unique. And that's very where I lend money.
I would say I would probably also say buy it and I would say buy it on Chile dotcom use code. Get it. Check out for. No, I'm joking. I'm joking.
We're not sponsoring 50 percent off. It's not the welcome discount. It's our. Yeah, that's right. That's right. So when you when you join Chili, it'll say like you've got 50 percent welcome discount and but that's actually the 50 percent golden ticket discount and definitely. No, it's not. It's not you're not sponsored.
And OK, so we return every dime of things.
I'm good beyond cool.
So I'm beyond shall we shall we do our little end of end of the five minute discussion.
We've been up to what we've the always last five minutes. Never longer.
Never like most of the good guys. No. I mean this time we're we're pretty far into. Well, have you been up to this week, Duncan?
So I bought two games, Jamie, and pretty extravagant.
I bought Europa Universalis for and because it was on sale. So it was on sale and it's normally like for a forty pounds, it was on sale for 699.
And I was like I was like, well I've started playing Hearts of Iron. If I get it for seven pounds, give it a try over the next couple of weeks and I can always refund if I don't like it.
Otherwise it's seven pounds. You know, it's a fair bit of money but I'm sure I'll play a couple of times. I know people that play, I can play it with them, etc. and but then of course, because it's a paradox game, it has a ridiculous amount of DLC. And so I ended up spending thirty five pounds on it because I bought like free of the disease, are on sale with it and are like four of the doses that were recommended and like the upgrade to whatever.
So that fucking plan went to shit because you know, I was meant to be getting a great deal and I ended up spending a bunch of money on it. So hopefully I enjoy it if someone really played it. Yeah, I played the tutorial and it seemed quite fun. And I know people that play it, so I'm sure I will play it. But, um, I'm not really played yet.
And the other game I got was one one two operator, which is a sequel to nine one one operator, which I used to play one too well, whereas the number one one two, I don't know, somewhere I assume I like the game would have changed.
I think that was what I know so well. This is the cool thing about the game. And so you can so. So the game is you have a map on your screen of like a city and you have your units that you need to move about and so that you have an ambulance unit, a police unit, and in the loading screen you can decide like which people you're putting in which unit and how they're equipped and stuff. And then in the actual game, you get calls and little events pop up in the map and you have to direct your units to the events.
And but the really cool thing, emergency number for the the really cool thing about the game is that you can play in any city in the world because it's based on like Google Maps data or something. Ah.
And so, like, I can type in Edinburgh and like you can play it in Edinburgh. All right. You type in anywhere, like literally anywhere in the world, tunnelers, tiny towns, areas of countryside that you can literally type anything into. It's like that's like the cool thing.
Um so the the first one, so this one is much like transport fever has not changed much from the first one and but it has got a bunch of new calls which is good because that's the it's like very repetitive obviously. Yeah. And the way the colds work is, it's like a it's almost like a telltale game where like they'll call up and it'll be like, I'm doing this. And then you have three options and you're like, where are you?
What happened? And like you choose what advice you give them and stuff whilst you're sending your units there.
And so there's new calls in it and they've expanded it so that, like, you can add districts to your area and then you can also hire people to, like, help you with the distribution of units and stuff like that. And if I added like three buildings and a few more units and stuff. So it is a bit of an upgrade to the first one. And it was also in sales. So I got it fairly cheap. And but so I when I when I was first playing, I was really addicted to it and and I was like, I'm going to go into the and I'm going to be like by one month operator right now it's best game ever.
And but then after playing it for a years, the calls like started repeating and the same has happened in the first game. And so I mean I would still say get it is a really fun game. But be warned that after your first campaign and if you start freaking out or anything, it's just going to be the same calls.
Um, so it's good and bad at the same time.
And I think it's made by quite a small studio and they've got like a whole feedback system like.
It's obviously a very they're obviously trying to make it very sound orientated and the way the way that you can put it in any city in the world is really cool because there's no you'll get you'll get calls to the street next to you, whether it be like I'm on the street and it'll help here and then, like, you can send them to school.
And, yeah, that's that's mainly what I've been playing.
I would say maybe. So I finished our souls, as you know. Yeah, and I want to play the ones and Bloodborne and stuff like that. Well, speaking of Edinburgh, representation and video games, but, you know, I don't want to get burned out and like you said, go for it all too fast and I'm leaving fairly soon. So I wanted to pick a nice, short, easy game. And so I have my passport back now, as you know.
So I decided to play Disney's Marvel Sonis insomniacs spirometer vampires for the exact opposite of a game with the small team.
My favorite PS4 game, the only one is for gay. That's right.
So I've been playing and I've been thinking about it a lot. It's sort of it's one of those like sandboxing games with all those games. It's a very aggressively assignment's. You know, it's sort of like those icons on the map and they're all like small tasks that don't really take much effort to do, but just kind of show up and you do it. And that's the thing that's checked off your list. And you get that serotonin boost and then you realize like 10 hours have gone by.
Yeah. So I've been kind of thinking about it, because I think those games, I find it very easy to pass a lot of time with them. I think I don't enjoy them. I just sort of go into a haze, right. Yeah.
So that's that's kind of the way I spread over so long. And I mean, the reason I wanted to get it, I mean, number one, you were leaving. So I was like, well, I can get the PS4 for free to borrow it and leave the game.
The game actually cost me near full price at six, but still as frequent and very frequent label on.
So I really want like I really want to just like swinging by the combat and stuff. So I mean, I didn't like sit and play for I just dropped into over the course of a year and which is fun. Like the swinging, the swinging mechanics are really good and combat's kind of fun and not hard particularly but yeah.
Well was kind of like coming from Dark Souls which I will now compare every game to. Of course I was just that's what happens. Duncan, you should play it. But like just the combat is kind of unsatisfying even compared to the Batman games. They often do. And so the thing is really going on. Yeah, I think so. I would say that there's just something about playing. I really it's the Dodge. I don't like the way the Dodge works.
It seems very fluffy.
I basically didn't use a dodge. So my my recommendation is just to like I just stepped away. So I did all the combat in the air basically. So I would like pick out an individual. Pick out an individual. Nice. Yeah, I did use a dodge. That's a lie. But I didn't use a dodge in like hand-to-hand combat. I would I would pick out an individual, I would pick out of the enemy, fight them in the air I didn't like, zoom away and stuff like that.
And more so than like getting caught up. And, you know, it's like some say overdrive, which is the other insomniac. Oh, and where you want to stay off the ground.
Oh, cause that's kind of what it feels like.
Yeah. That would actually be pretty interesting. I would have been a good mechanic. I feel for Spider Man game as well. I have to be.
I mean it's kind of there but not as pretty. Well I guess you get more focus when you're in the air.
It also depends what triggered and I guess and. Yeah, yeah. Well, like all video game skill trees, but as with many of the Spider-Man, one is completely meaningless because you have more experience. You get everything. Pretty much.
Yeah, kind of like why do you want to specialize? It's just like which powers do you want.
I think I've got I think I've got one and I didn't unlock before I get it. But he like the last power and one of the lists so it's really not a no.
There's no choice.
But you could I guess you could rush down one list and I'm like, yeah. And then just gradually get the other things that's kind of weighted now, even that distinct either like.
No, not really. But it's not clear really what divides them. No, but yeah. So I would say the combat and it's a I really hate the way boss battles work and actually a lot this is the way the first few ones are not great.
They open up a bit. And I remember the first couple ones are all like inside and actually the final ones inside is all, which really sucks for the game. But there's there are a few good ones. If you keep playing, if you could boswells a lot more open.
And just because the way this game works is that every enemy can sort of do like a third of Spider-Man s in one blow. Yeah, I like that bind when it's like a bunch of enemies and like you're trying to and you can defeat them all fairly quickly. I was more like about sort of a rush, but when you start it's like sustained fights, particularly a lot of the bosses, particularly the ones on land like Tombstone and Taskmaster. So come to mind a lot.
I like you compulsion for a bit and then like, you can stop that. You're no longer allowed to punch him in the punch you back. And it's never clear when that's coming so late. You always end up losing like an entire facade of your health. Yeah, and it's really bullshit. Annoying. Yep. Yep. Yeah. Also, I complain to you about this already, but Spiderman is a real cop in that game. It's disgusting.
I hate him. I do not like it when Spiderman is smart and has access to technology that goes very against the appeal of them. To me.
Just just put on the homemade suit, Jimmy. And if you find those backpacks, you get a homemade suit and then you can just roll with it.
I found all the backpacks. Don't worry, OK? My my my favorite suit was a scarlet spider one I think is really awesome. I can remember when you unlock it, it's fucking cool as hell.
But like I feel the appeal of Spider-Man as a hero is that like he's down to where, you know, he's he's like the people he's protecting. You know, he's not one of those billionaires in the sky high towers. Yeah, but like so yeah. You know, Spider-Man, he's he's falling behind in his rent, his relationship problems and all that. But also, you know, he's one of a kind genius. Yeah. He can I see you.
Yeah. That goes against his appeal to me. Also, a minor complaint is about the research stations in that game, which began to really irritate me after a while, because every research station you go up to it and then like the ideas, like they're monitoring some sort of like. I know. Like I saw of. Our humanzee or something? Yeah, everyone go to you, go to it, and I was like, oh wow, there's a massive crisis that's going to happen three minutes from now on.
The happens like 15 times. And I'm not usually a pothole guy, but, like, it really irritates me. But every single one you go to is 60 seconds away from disaster.
Yes, but that kind of stuff. But it's fun. I mean, it's a fun enough game.
And that's the thing like now that I've sort of gotten used to the upswing and like, it's sort of automatic for me. And I've got all the pigeons, which is the best part of the best part by far. It is losing its luster for me. Yeah, it's not that I'm looking forward to playing something else when I'm done with this of.
All right, probably, which are free, which will also take forever, you know, probably that's been sitting with your peers for four years.
I'm not sure. Yeah, it's the only the second game I ever bought for it. Nice. And you've not done it yet?
All Well, I think we better call it a podcast, Jimmy, and I've got to go Ferdinand's and have fun. Thank you.
That was that was cute, right. So no ratings. We said I said watch if it's on for the first one. And you said don't avoid. And then for the second one, we both said bye bye. Yeah, but not by the Criterion Collection. Although the Criterion Collection edition comes of both films. So if you like the sound of both of them, you could get the idea.
And I do like the value of the dollar is reduced to being a bonus feature and beyond. Yeah, beyond which is supposedly a parody of it the way it should be. Exactly. Bye bye. Bye everyone. Thanks for listening.
Love you all. Bye.