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Everyone, oh, Jamie, I said, oh, my God, Casey, you just did a remark a bit wrong and yeah, that's fine, but I feel like that's how we always start.


So just exactly it's tradition at this point. Who does marks correctly? Exactly.


So what we what what is what is this, Jamie? What are people listening to?


You're listening to the Golden Turkeys podcast, which I'm assuming you clicked on by accident. Probably. And we know. God, we talk about forgiveness them, Jamie, I was going to say never make sure to hold the audience, but but we just fucked up and now we've definitely lost them. Go on. Go and describe the podcast. Describe the podcast, son.


We discussed films that came out exactly 50 years ago this week. Yeah.


And with a pretty loose definition of exactly 50 years ago. Yes.


50 years ago, depending on how convenient it is for us. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah.


So what's the fun for today?


The film for today is the conformist known in Italian as You'll Come For Me, which is relevant because it is an Italian film, is an Italian film. I presented that information in the most logical order.


Yeah, for sure. So, yeah, this film is really fucking good. Sure. So, yeah, go on.


I see you said that you're about to get into it.


So I was not assuming you're in the historical context. Yeah, well, I mean, so this was released before the historical context. This is literally the first 1970 and it was released a film festival then. Yes.


And it wasn't released to cancel the film festival. Yeah. Did you did you read about that controversy, the whole thing? Yes.


It sounded very dumb in the sense that it was allowed to happen. But, uh, yeah. So what happened is it was the Berlin film.


Twenty one of the 20th edition, I think. Yeah.


And one of the films debuts there was called OK. And it was a very graphic, very violent anti-war film. And then the American director, who I was I haven't heard of and therefore did not remember the name, made a big brouhaha about how this anti Vietnam War film was loud, anti-American, he called it. Yeah. And then the directors of the film festival were so annoyed that this was allowed to happen. But they all just sort of packed up and left in the film festival is canceled.


Yeah, something like this happens basically just sort of turn the car around and went home.


So I think the argument was that there's some there's some rule. I mean, I'm sure you read the same thing as me, but there's some, like, film festival rule that they they have to try and promote, like goodwill between nations and not take sides or something like that, kind of exactly what it was. And I think that argument was a film that was quite clearly sort of against one side was. Was was being allowed to be shown, and that was that broke that rule, but then the counter argument was it was actually pro-American because all the Americans hated the Vietnam War and etc.


and said, yeah, so yeah.


So feel if you're going on a film festival and you're not allowed to have the message boards, then I feel you're drawing up the great. Well yeah, exactly.


But I mean, you can see how some Americans would be like this anyway. So yeah, that's is this the Berlin Film Festival which which was canceled.


And so that was kind of at least OK. So historical context and this isn't relevant to the year, but do you know who was born on the 1st of July? I do not want to take a guess, it was an 18, 1899, he was born in the first year of 1899.


I was completely unaware it was Indiana Jones. Oh, OK, so that was the number one fact that take me back to you and which is a website we use for social context, I was the number one factor there, put out for the first of July, and that's not to go.


And also, I realized that we missed the U.K. election, Jimmy.


Oh, yeah, it happened. It was a surprise conservative victory. Oh, cool.


Is it? Everyone's favorite conservative PM making their debut.


Um, who's that? Is is it my time to shine? No, no, it was because it was let me check before I say the wrong name. Uh, did you do 1970 U.K. election? Uh, Edward Heath. Oh, cool. And they he took over from Harold Wilson, who is labor, and they lost under Harold. Oh, and the Liberal Party lost half its seats.


Have. And anyway, so that's what happened that we missed. That was a 1815, but it was on it was on the cover of Time magazine this week. So we'll let it we'll let it slide.


Let's travel when you're on the line, TIME magazine is we've said this before that we should really be looking at like The New York Times or something, but instead we said we will take me back to govern.


Well, sources I like to use, which is the most obvious thing is that we're only looking at one source who actually gives us the book.


Yeah, we're looking at one source and uses Time magazine and Life magazine, both of which seem to bring out news at least two weeks after it happens. And it's fine. You know, that's that's what we're doing. That's how we're doing it. So, yeah, that happened.


And it was it's also Canada Day, the 1st of July, which I assume you know.


Did you know that? Yeah, I didn't know that. Or Dominion Day as, um. As I've seen some people refer to it, I've never heard of it referred to the second time of the day, really, you know, it used to be called Dominion Day. And I think some some some of those good old ServPro pro UK Canadians refer to as the Menindee, which is nice.


Just doesn't it doesn't roll off the tongue.


Dominion Day, I don't know. They also use the old Canadian flag, you know, the one with the red one with the little union flag and. Whatever, so doing so they hang up and they're like happy Dominion Day, so that's nice. Those people are cool and of course people they are not.


And the charts guess, guess, guess we're back home by the English World Cup squad is bearing in mind there no free no no fives though.


And so they are from the tournament and have been for now over a week, but they're still number five in the charts in the U.K. I spurrell actually listen to it at some point.


I say right through, I listen to it right at the star and I've forgotten it and yeah. So that's good. So that's a certain context.


Free Election UK has elected a government that I'm sure will improve everything. Probably not. post-War consensus ain't going anywhere good.


So the film.


Well, yeah, which isn't to do with the UK, which is out of the UK or Indiana Jones or Canada or the England World Cup squad in 1970. And instead is about fascism. Yeah.


Italian fascism.


Which is the best kind of fascism. No. Well, the fact of maybe the best it's the best in it didn't work as well as other.


Branches. Yeah, yeah, I'm just let's move on.


Yeah, they say no, we save that besiegement. Yeah, so this is a film about this called The Conformist, as we've mentioned, and is a film about a man who joins the Italian fascist party. Yeah, it's all told in flashbacks as he goes on his way to murder his old mentor, who is an anti fascist.


Yeah, much like much like the Italian in last week's film. Uh, yeah, exactly, you know, there we go, um. And it's about, I guess. How about fascism as an ideology and the appeal it holds to people and how it can sway them?


I would say and what is the appeal? Me? Well, it's this idea, this sort of need when people, I would say, to be a part of something more than themselves in order to feel strong, as it were, unimportant.


Yeah, I think I think it's probably quite convenient if you if you fit into the narrative that there's that specific branch of fascism is giving.


Well, the irony, of course, for our protagonist in this film is that he doesn't because he is a repressed homosexual. Yes. He would, of course, be an issue, as they say, on the fascism. Yeah. Anyway, uh. But yeah, so I was supposed to lay out the character I've forgotten his name to do Marcelo so much, I love that so much. So Marcelo joins the Italian secret police and he's very up front.


That is part of his desire to conform. Yeah, normal Marcela's life is very led by the desire to fit in with everyone to be seen as normal. Yeah. Which I think is. You know, as motivations go is very understandable, obviously. I mean, I think most people feel at least some sort of desire to fit in with society around them. Yes. So obviously, Marcelo's case, given who he is and the historical time, that would have probably been incredibly powerful effect on him, as he has, but as so many are unable to conform to society.


Really? Yeah. Um, so he's. So does secret police. He is engaged to be married to a petty bourgeois. Yeah, well, Julia, Julia, Julia, I guess.


Julia. Yeah, so I suppose we can start by talking about their relationship if you want your piecemeal. It's probably best if you go through all at once. Um, so he is not a big fan of hers, really.


He kind of treats her with disdain, at least at first.


Yeah, well, I imagine as a as a homosexual and probably not ideal to where is he a homosexual.


Yeah, I think I mean I would never say he never says it like outright for obvious reasons. Yeah. I think I mean perhaps the first sign of that, what was relevant is that he complains about how much she just wants to have sex with him all the time and he is pretty clearly not that interested in it.


Yeah, but then he does he does seduce the other women later on. I guess even that does not. No, I mean, yeah, it's not really clear. It's definitely it's definitely something that's implied. Right. Or or. Yeah, there's some kind of sort of desire there to explore it, at least. Exactly. Something like that. Yeah. Well, yeah, so, yeah, their relationship is not not great, um. It kind of yeah, she's very into it.


Is she yeah, yeah, she wants she wants to get married and he doesn't so much basically and he's he's doing it as part of this part of his desire to be a normal person or to be seen by other people as normal is really why he's getting married, which you say.


Exactly. Well, exactly. I mean, that's why so many people, uh, chose to do it especially. But even today as well. Yeah. Yeah, so we learned some stuff about the background unagi, we should that's really specific. Yeah.


OK, we're back and we're back.


I have to go. Yeah, exactly. What I was going to say before we left is that he's maybe not they don't really get on super well. His wife, for all but one of the few times when they do when he does sort of fond of her genuinely emotionally is when she shares that she was taken advantage of by a much older man, which is an experience that we eventually learned. What's the name again?




Charlotte, that's right. Which also happened to Marcelo. And just the reason I bring that up is that I think it's an example of something that you see quite a lot throughout the film, which is that Marcela's actual experiences of human connection are almost all times when it's these sharing experiences that aren't normal, if you know what I mean.


Yeah. I think, um, yeah, I get what you get. I mean, the best example, I think the best example is his friendship with the blind man, right. Because they're obviously both ostracized by society, but I think. Right. Yeah. What I want to say is that it's during very rare moments where he's able to. Sort of find out that people are more similar to his eccentricities than he realizes, right?


You're saying yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely, because I think obviously the desire to conform to it. So it's fueled by the desire to belong, to have connections with other human beings that we all share and that never he never really gets that through his descent into fascism throughout the film. Yeah. We ever really get this sort of empty sense of power. There's a nice bit where someone hands him like a gun for a mission and they like pose with it.


And I sort of like very kittiwakes in his head. Yeah, yeah, is not serious at all, but what you do see is that even though he is unusual, he is able to find these moments of connection with other people who are sort of unable to be accepted by society for. Which is how these things work, I suppose. So, yeah, basically what I'm trying to say is the reason that he becomes a fascist never pans out for him.


It's unable to fulfill what he really wants. Which I think is important because one of the things I was thinking about when watching this film is obviously neo fascism and how a lot of people fall down that pipeline due to how ostracized they feel. Yes. From them.


The way they see the world doesn't.


Yeah, exactly. Yeah, very specific. And well, that's what I was saying earlier, about like, um, I guess it's a bit different because he wants to be part of them day when when you see people that kind of match with you in some way. Yeah. It's very easy to ignore the feelings of them. And I think I mean, I think that that's a case with lots of things, not just like fascism or politics, but, you know, like cults and all that kind of stuff.


It's all to do with this, like need to kill included and feel part of something. And you definitely when you can when you can feel a connection in some way to something, you are willing to ignore a lot of shortcomings.


Yeah, exactly. Or I think with fascism in particular, what's so seductive about it is that not only do you get that sense of belonging, but you get this idea that you are sort of. And that part of the society and your bastard, no one else like. Yeah, especially when he a dominant society. And I can tell you for someone to tell you otherwise, like. Yeah. Hmm.


I obviously, I suppose something differential between modern fascism as we know it today and fascism as depicted in the film, is obviously fascist, at least currently and hopefully forever, are obviously something of a minority willing to offer this narrative of, you know, your special, you're powerful. It's everyone else's fault that, you know, you feel. Weak, yes, or you're not getting your just desserts rather than things that are actually up for like, say, capitalism or your actual government, you know?


Sure, I know this is something you and I disagree with, but that's my personal take on the situation. And certainly I think we can both agree that fascism offers easy solutions for complex problems, big time. But certainly to go back to the film, I don't think our protagonist is necessarily interested in that. He just feels this need to be accepted by society. Exactly.


To be part of something bigger. Yeah. Something else which I thought was worth noting is the role of religion in this film. Yeah, because he is he has to go to confession for he's getting married and he says that he hasn't been since like he was first baptized or in the Catholic Catholic Church.


Yeah, but I feel as though the film was sort of suggesting maybe that perhaps his need to be part of something bigger than himself could have been fulfilled by religion if he chosen to take that path. Yeah, I mean, well, there's so close parallels.


One of the lines I wrote down was 90 percent of people who go to church don't believe and the priests don't either. Um, which I feel like is kind of. Yeah. Can it kind of shows it fulfills the same thing where it's not it's not necessarily about believing. Up in anything, it's about it's about being part of a community and like feeling that if you confess, you're suddenly free of all and problems and free free of everything you've done.


And I feel like it's the same is the same thing, I think. Yeah. I agree with what you're saying. Like the way the way it's presented is not I agree with you that it is that he could have gone with that and said, but I don't think it presents as a better alternative necessarily just as a. I, I, I mean, I was wondering, I thought I picked up a very religious vibe, but I won't just be really, I think mainly in the final scenes in particular.


Um, um, but yeah, when the kids praying and stuff. But I think. Yeah, I think yeah, exactly.


I think that the aim of that in my view was just because at that point religion is the norm. And I think that just to show that he's got the normal life that he wanted or thought that he wanted. Yeah, I mean, I could also be true, I don't I don't think the term is perfectly pro religion.


Um, no, I think his main priority, very cynical of it, but it does perhaps present it as sort of better alternative. Definitely. But I wouldn't say it was pro religion. I think it's definitely cynical of it and aware of the issues, but it's also a of it.


I mean, I think another thing the film does that when one last time was his name. Marcelo, Marcelo, Marcelo, Michel, Michel. Even when one discusses, you know, the incident from his childhood where he was taken advantage of by his chauffeur and accidentally killed him, he knows that the priest is vastly more concerned with the possibility of him being a homosexual father with someone.


Yeah, exactly. The priest keeps asking about it, like what exactly happened? Have you ever had these feelings again? Have you ever acted on them? Yeah. Stuff, yeah. So I suppose it's not presented as a perfect solution, but certainly I think there's a very conscious parallel drawn between fashion and religion, although I think obviously listen to it a lot better. Um, so what worth noting, oh, his father, this is important, his father has syphilis.


Yeah. Which is obviously a mental condition. Yeah. Not only is Marcelo a homosexual, obviously, but he's also got a relative who would, you know, under a fascist regime be killed. Yeah. And even during his wedding, there are suggestions that, you know, he should go on undergoing medical tests because, you know, he can't be allowed to pass the stuff on. Well, it's him that suggests actually.


Yeah, I would say so. Yeah. I find it interesting the way he suggests. It's almost like he doesn't like it's a good thing because he says so. He says, you know, the mother is always ready to ever and he says he'd be more than happy to take a test for it. And then he says in Germany, the tests are compulsory and he doesn't say it in Canada. No, he says that he says it in a very like flat flat kind of that's how it should be or not.


And I said, it's actually me. But he doesn't see the problem with that at all, which kind of shows how accepting he is of this ideology, even though it clearly directly affects him. And it kind of just shows how much he believes in it, even knowing.


Well, I think that is one of the things is interesting about the film is very clear throughout. Even before my child discovers, like his own sense of morality getting in the way, even at the very, very beginning, it doesn't actually necessarily believe in fascism itself. He's just after that sense of belonging, a sense, validity and power. Yeah, I guess I guess the ideological background may be more appropriate to say that he fully accepts it.


Yeah. So, yeah, he doesn't he doesn't say that. The fact is, um, would you say compulsory in Germany is a good thing. But he also doesn't say it like it's a bad thing. You just sort of accept it. That's how it is.


And he speaks approvingly of the regime I think is more of like, you know, this is a regime that works and yet really in the end, goals. Exactly. Yeah. So, yeah, I suppose that's interesting because you have to you have to wonder how much of a someone in 1930s fascist Italy would know about what was going on in Germany. When you think about a lot of Germans didn't know or at least claim they didn't know and you'd have to I mean, I'm sure I would have just gotten stuff through the grapevine.


Exactly. So, you know, you could almost see that. And it's kind of understandable that he doesn't worry about it because it's not something that he's aware of. That's true. I mean, I don't know I don't know that star Koufax or whatever, but I mean, I doubt March. I mean, I doubt my child would have known the genocide was on the horizon. Yeah. Because at that time. But I mean, you would have obviously known it was a deeply.


Deeply, unquote. Yes, certainly joining, yeah. So the bulk of the story, as I say, is that Martially was given this mission as part of the secret police to assassinate an old professor. So he does this on his honeymoon with his wife, Julia. They go to Paris, Paris. We get a sort of look at 1930s Germany and we got a look at his Paris.


I'm very sorry. Thank you. I promise you that I suppose this is a decent time to mention that again, that this film looks really, really nice. The buildings in particular, which I think are worth noting, are all very grand and not very fascist the way and it will all end up well staged.


A lot of use of classical art is a lot of use of negative space. These are me throwing up those words. I don't know if you see someone trained have something to this.


Well, I well, I didn't really find it that that I didn't think the cinematography was actually up to that much.


Um, really, I saw the thing on Wikipedia that said, like, it's been praised for its amazing cinematography, but I don't know. I feel like there is now definitely some nice bits and some good bits. But I didn't feel like overall it was it didn't particularly show me.


I can disagree with you on TV.


I'll take that as my controversial hot take for the week.


It is a very controversial take on. Yeah, you're being canceled as we speak.


I mean, there were some very nice bits and some very, very nice camera movements, but I didn't feel like maybe I didn't watch it. I didn't watch it. Particularly good quality.


I don't know about, say, me, Duncan, but I've watched a really bad stream of the film with subtitles occasionally just sort of forgot to be there.


That, you know, it's interesting you say that because I've had that happen before on my course even, and we watched an Italian film and it just didn't have subtitles every every like fifth line just wasn't subtitled.


And I wonder I wonder if it's a thing that some that some planes just aren't deemed worthy of, like at least from this one, like every time it was like I think from like four or five times from the film when I was little, ones were just like super quickly like. Yeah.


Well, I mean, that's probably just it was always like a line like you tell like it was something peppy or like it was like the final format to come, the score of the year.


That's probably just a rendering, that's probably just a rendering. But there are definitely a couple that just weren't subtitled it. So which is like a whole other. OK, well, I will just say I thought the film was very well made, is very staged, it reminds me a little of French New Wave stuff I've seen and not the shorts are very purposely not natural at all. Right. But they're all done in such a way that they all look very pretty and all very well composited or something like that.


Yeah. For me, it reminds me of sort of post-war like immediately post-war cinema, especially Italian cinema and German cinema, and that can have that kind of vibe for me. You know, I'm sure like like, for example, uh, uh, Rome Open City from nineteen thirty five, you know, it had to convince me not about it but yeah that's yeah I'm just trying to cover my tracks, I should say.


I work for a very limited vocabulary. Yeah. We're not seen any post-war German or Italian from um but yeah obviously I was looking at the articles and some of them said that it was very inspired by films like trying well uh, sort of fascist cinema. Yeah. I've never really dip my toes into four I think. Understandable reasons and trained for the most pretty good.


And I know. Yeah. Well things like, you know, you've got a film which like you know, is very influential and it's very, very well shown, but it's also evil. Yeah. I mean, I've got films to watch that aren't evil thrillers. Yeah.


Well it's I feel for this film, um, the influence is felt very wide and so like overall it did for me have the kind of immediately post-war vibe. But there was definitely a lot of that, that pre-war and during war stuff. And and it kind of had elements of especially at the end when like the whole thing's in ruins, had elements of rebel films which are and all the films that were shot like immediately after the war and genuine rubble in Austria and stuff can have that kind of feel.


And so I feel like I feel like in terms of if you think about when it's set and where it's I think it does really draw inspiration from those periods and locations, which was nice. I feel it's a good it's a good way to kind of get. Even if you haven't seen those films. You still kind of somewhere kind of aware that it's got that kind of vibe I feel. Would you would you agree that you kind of get a war time?


Yeah, I like it. Like I mean, like I say, the sort of slight issue for me, obviously, is I don't really have those. That artistic background is the word to call upon. Yeah. Because I can't compare it to something I've never seen. Yeah. Like even if you like, you look at all like propaganda pieces and stuff, there's still a lot of them. Exactly.


Yeah. You get because you get you get the general vibe of the era. And I think the film picks up that vibe of the era very well compared to the other films you've seen, which have mostly felt very 70s.


You know, I mean, I don't know if you'd agree, but I think this is easily the best looking film of it so far.


Um, let me have a look at what we looked at.


I will also just say I was looking at color is used very nicely in some places. Um, there's a lot of nice scenes of good blues, good oranges. As you can tell. I don't have an artistic pretty colors like that. There are pretty good I'm sure I've said this before about other films. I'm sorry as the only thing I noticed.


Um. Oh, you like to hedge it for the honeymoon shots, though, didn't he? Oh yeah. That was fantastic. Yeah, I think this is a little better than that. Yeah. I guess. Yeah. I guess. Um.


Yeah, you could be, yeah, yeah, yeah, I could see that. All right, so four years, maybe more of an interview. And I think this is pretty far out, right?


Yeah, no, I mean, I felt very much like a film that I'd be set to watch for my course.


So maybe that kind of put me put me in that frame of mind a bit more than the more than maybe say that, just sort of as for my tastes or in terms of cinematography, lean towards the very ostentatious and in your face, perhaps because I'm too stupid to pick up on anything else.


No, I like I would agree with that. I like that. So definitely, um. Yeah, no, I feel like maybe I was just in there. I wasn't. But I don't know. I don't know. I think you are right.


But I didn't feel it was as good as other people seem to think in terms of cinematography and stuff. But it was, it was definitely good. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it was badly shot. It was very nice. They just didn't feel it was I didn't feel it was just like a masterpiece that that seems to be the common. And I think it's fair. Well, I think a particular visual stuff is all very subjective, exactly pleasing.


So the main part of the film, as I say, is that he's given this assignment and asked for it.


And you said that it is and it will soon be the fourth and fifth.


Yeah. Well, you know what? This film is very circular.


It's not told entirely. And this is a little hard to keep track of what's going on. Sometimes, yeah.


Um. I mean, I don't mean to sound like an idiot, but I really do need, like, a big sort of like and so two years ago.


So if it does, it does help. It does help because there is there are definitely for the most part, the flashbacks and flash forwards were pretty well thing where, like, you would start talking about something, then we cut to it. But there were definitely a couple where, like you, I was suddenly like, right, where exactly are we? Who exactly. Yeah. You know, what exactly is going on? Who exactly are these people?


There is definitely for the most part, it was pretty well done in terms of he would start telling a story and then it would cut to an obvious flashback.


Yeah, I do agree with you. There were there were points where it was kind of a bit confusing where you got to.


Yeah. Yeah. I wasn't enough.


So if I win Johnstone's disorderlies to what they are, what they really needed was like a shot of him lying back and which then like fades to black with a little Sambell signs and then it kind of fades and old.


Yeah exactly. Then it might need a little harder than the screen to do that wavy thing. Exactly.


And then it's then then you know that you're dreaming or it's a flashback. Yeah. That's what it is.


Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, the main plot of this film is.


Oh yes. I was given this assignment, his professor they keep saying he's a hunchback and we also didn't notice. Oh I see.


Now that you say that. I remember him saying that I didn't even notice.


Yeah, I will say maybe that's sort of a joke I didn't pick up on, which was bad or I'm not there culturally. Yeah. Um, but if it is literal then I think a those continue the idea that most was all of his genuine connections with other people who are unable to fit into the society or in some way unusual. Yeah. Um, this professor, um, is antifascist. He was part of the resistance in Antifa.


Yeah, he is Mr. Antifa, he took over from the guy from the crime against humanity. Yeah, it's a hereditary title. Which one thing would go against the whole Antifa message?


But they're wrong. Yeah, you've got to have strong leadership. You see, horseshoe theory is actually. Yeah. Antifa is actually just monarchism. Yeah.


You say that you could have shown leadership. You've got to have an elite ruling class. You know, it's important to keep them away.


Good stuff. So I've got a good point. Oh, sorry. Probably also worth talking about is that he's a really shit spy. Yeah, like when he first was like, wow, why are you calling me after, like, ten years? And he says, I just felt like it. Yeah. The reason I come see you. Yeah. Um, well so yeah.


But to be fair, I think the story of his efforts is a pretty good one.


Yeah, but he doesn't open with that, no, well, you know, first of all, he would say I'm in for my honeymoon and I just thought about you and I was like, hey, whilst I'm here, I'm gonna check in. Yeah, but he does it in the most suspicious way possible. Yeah. Which given that you are someone who he knows is coming from Italy and he has committed antifascist. Yeah. Would immediately raise alarm bells.


And I think it is pretty clear that both the professor and his wife know why he's here yet for a while.


Well, maybe they're hoping to change him. Yeah. Um, yeah. So he goes to the press department, he and his wife, and they meet with, uh, the professor's wife. We'll discuss. Just because we're talking about the right. Um, so the professor and him have a meeting and he talks about this philosophy. He talks about Plato's Cave. Mm hmm. Which is a philosophy thing that I have heard of.


I have not heard of it. I can't discuss it.


Well, let me look it up for you, dear. Uh, so as I explained in the film, I think place is cave is like the idea of like we we can only work with the knowledge that we have, as it were.


So I'm good. Well, this is the legislators.


So like the example is that there are people in a cave and there are tied up with the artifice, the back of the cave. But if, say, someone what's possible to see the shadow on the back wall. But it wouldn't be a shadow because they wouldn't know a shadow is a real person. Is shadow would be reality.


Yeah I see that. Yeah. So yeah, I guess the subjective nature of reality and then there's free higher levels exist.


Yeah. Natural sciences, mathematics, deductive logic. And then the fourth one I guess is that a rare philosopher will attempt to climb out this. That's like the highest. OK, I can get it.


You I think the idea is that you perceive the world based on the exact amount of knowledge that you have. And yeah, if you can improve that by learning specific things. Yeah, I kind of get it right.


So, um, I'm maybe the most qualified to discuss how this plays to the film. I think you could say that certainly in relation to fascism, it's this idea that sort of closing yourself off from the world might make you a bit more certain in what you believe, but you will be wrong a lot at the time. Or you will you. You can be certain in a conviction that is completely false. You yourself off that's a trade off that I suppose you could say a fascist knowingly makes.


In regardless of whether you know, the virus or fascism as one was based on racism or classism or homophobia or whatever you can to yourself by sort of closing yourself off from those people, obviously you'll never.


You've been closing yourself off. You're depriving yourself of. The knowledge of those people's lives, I suppose. Sure, yeah, just it's an ideology based on exposing yourself to something quite right, I suppose, as part of the.


So so the professor has has changed Marcelo to the wall of a cave. And I don't remember this, but the filmon.


So to who change you to the cave. When does what's the time stamp for this happening. I don't remember.


And I to do in the office I just have shadows. The opens one window and it looks very cool. Cool. But um. Yeah. So the professor's angle for all this, you know, Marcha is a fascist. Yeah. But like many antifascists, uh, he or he has this incredibly naive belief that you can change them. Yeah. Um. So that's the professor's plan and a little spoiler alert doesn't go well for him, but I know it's his arc that says, ah, what about his wife, Jamie?


Well, the wife is a quite probably more important to the part of the film and be really hard to talk about because I don't really get her.


I'll be honest, um, she tries to seduce his wife. Yeah, so I we think I'm not even sure if she was or if he was just comparing, but. She hates Marshmallow immediately and then Marcela's like able to kind of seduce her, but in a way where she resents him because he's a fascist. Yeah, but like, you know, nightmare. Not enough not to be attracted to. Yeah. So, you know, they have a case and then she bites them on the lips, so you.


Yeah. Kinky. But, you know, that's I mean, people are messy. Obviously, it doesn't ring true. True to me necessarily. But this might be a reflection of myself. Maybe that's.


Well, you've lost me. I'm sorry. I just want to say. Well. Well, much like Plato in the cave, I have never been attracted to a fascist. Oh, I see. Right, OK. Yeah, but maybe that is the way it goes. Right.


OK, so I mean. Right, sorry you lost me for a minute there when you say. Yeah, got it unlisted.


But yeah. So I find her remotivate. I found a little confusing because she's also. Seducing or at least being very. Unsubtly attracted to Marcelo's wife. Yeah, um, so I also just noting another person who doesn't fit into society, she's either by or gay, another person that my child is actually able to be close to. Yeah. Um. So so Officier Marcelo, other thing Marcelli, like says like, you know, he'll run away with her, you know, and they just, you know, do the film lovers think and they have a very intense emotional compatibility was like I said, I don't quite understand that last film.


Yeah. Um. So one of the small details which I found mildly noteworthy is that they got Chinese food at one point. Yeah, incredibly minor, but I've never seen a film set in the 30s where they do that, apart from Indiana Jones.


But he is in China. Yeah, he's in China right now. Yeah. See, I don't I suppose one thing I was thinking about when I saw that is that as we sort of get further away from the war and ask, they have to become more aggressively period pieces, as it were. Yeah. Then like maybe they have to learn a bit more restrictions on what they show. Whereas like, obviously the war as people left, it wasn't all like veralyn and stuff.


Of course, I like you know, it was still the world as it is today. You know, people did different things.


Them in UK, 1884 was the first and only census. So let's see.


Let's look at France. Yeah, uh. Cheese, I can't find it, but I mean, I guess I guess it would probably exist. I doubt there were a lot of Chinese restaurants, but it would make sense. I mean, in 1930s, there is enough migration for there to be.


Yeah, yeah. Although it does also amuse me to see that, um, the one of the other assassins that the Chinese restaurant is having red wine, which looks disgusting, frankly. Well, it sounds to me like no one drinks wine with Chinese. Right. That's why I don't I don't drink wine.


But I've seen I've seen a lot of times. Really, I think it sounds gross. OK, I mean, I agree because I'm not a big fan of wine, but I had I've seen it happen many times, so. Oh, yeah, believe that people people drink wine with everything that. That is true. Yeah, I suppose it wouldn't be the dumb thing to know most Chinese restaurants have windlass like just as expensive as an average wine list.


Well, maybe not quite, but pretty.


Yeah, and he was drinking red wine, like his weirdly sad looking play of. I just thought it was a lot nicer than, you know. Yeah.


The Chinese didn't look great. They weren't they weren't like sweet and sour.


But I am willing to accept that as being part of it, being the 40s and all. It is in the 30s. Yeah, you're right. It is still good.


If it was Germany. You think it's the 40s. Yeah. Yeah. Bloody all blends together. Yeah. Um, during the scene the professor gives Marcelo a note and he says, you know, deliver this someone in Rome. Yeah. There's no time pressure as a test. It turns out it's Blanken doesn't do it. I guess I can just, you know. I can trust you or is in they the countries in. Oh, no, because he would have handled it.


Is that right? Yeah. All right. I mean, I feel like he would have done that anyway. Yeah, this is over when my child is starting to have doubts about this whole fascism thing. Malarkey. Yeah. By the way, as he as you know, perhaps to the point in a land where most people are not fascists, he sort of loses his mettle, as it were.


If only he'd gone there after he'd gone there five years later, we would all be fascist.


Yeah, that's how it works. Or four years later. But yeah, I suppose I hadn't thought about this when watching the film. Thinking about it. Now, Marcelo never really, at least even at this point in the film, still hasn't really grown out of the desire to conform yet and still was ruling in as state where he's just needed to conform to a different crowd. Suddenly, it was worth fighting, another assassin goes to Paris with Marcelo, whose only job is to be angry at Marcelo for not assassinating people on time.


Yeah, and also to be like genuinely, clearly kind of terrifyingly evil in a way that Marcelo is not.


He's drinking wine of Chinese men. Of course he's evil. Exactly. But also he killed a lot of Africans. And that story of his is very clear. Unlike Marcelo, he is very dedicated to fascism as an ideology, as some people are.


As many as most people were watching on the cap, um, so he's very clear that he is absolutely, absolutely for killing people where he deems unfit to live. Yeah. So, yeah, again, sort of agree on or challenge doubts about whether this whole fascism thing is for him. Yeah. Or. So I suppose even then, is there anything else to discuss about when they're in Paris?


No, I mean, I assume you're about to talk about the end of the Paris trip and where there.


Yeah. Yeah. So they got invited to go up to a cabin with them in Switzerland where they told us there's a good spot for sex and man was great. We got big beds, not snow. It's wonderful. That's it. So you need to collect big beds and so, so up. So much leaves behind his wife and he goes with the other assassin and they follow the professor and his wife up to the mountains in Switzerland. And then they and they and it seems an awful lot about the secret police for killing one guy, ambush them on a mountain path like another car stops them and they're following them so they can't move.


Then all the secret police come down from the woods to chase them. So the professor is stabbed multiple times in a way which is quite a horrible martial scene, but that's certainly not perturbed. But his wife is chased through the woods yet.


And first of all, she first of all, she goes to their car and sees much, as I say, back in the back passenger seat.


Yeah. So this is like Marcelo's time to shine, as it were. This is climate vision. And he walks up and doesn't do the right thing. She sort of screams at him to help her and to let her in or we don't hear what she's saying. She's screaming at him. Yeah, Tyler just does nothing. Yeah.


And obviously the other guy in the car wants him to shoot her. Yeah.


We either. Did have a gun and he isn't doing that either. I didn't see the one thing that becomes very clear, uh, one could say from the phone, but definitely in the final four hours that marshmallow is a coward. Fundamentally, which one could also say is part of his desire to conform was that if not a form of social cowardice?


Secondly, he's Italian. Yeah, I mean, I didn't say I didn't say that, you know, I don't know he said that I'm just basically of catch 22. Yeah, exactly, yeah. So say yes, so Marcelo does nothing and she runs into the words and she's killed and it's quite vile and very horrible. Um, and quite fact, I'm I'm being very dismissive of it. Yeah, your, uh, it was a very sad scene.


It was pretty grim. Cool. Yeah, so after that, we flash forward, as it were, the end of the war to 1943. Yeah, Marcelo has a kid now. Yeah. And he got something pretty well. It's really something that brings an actual genuine happiness.


Yeah, the kids are really cute. They have a nice pair. It's a really nice scene. Yeah. Then he gets a phone call, he gets a phone call from the blind guy who runs what? Yeah, you want to hang out and let the good old days. His wife, he has a quick confrontation with her, where she says that she was told that he worked at the secret police and at the time she respected his decision. But after the professor died, she was kind of scared of him for forever more.


Yeah, that were so, you know, just also worth noting that fascism has destroyed all of his relationships. Feels bad, but he could have had. So he goes to see it and others sort of talk about stuff at the end of days, they see a car going down with a bolita Benito Mussolini statue you had on it.


Yeah, Philidor, not respecting history, how they are supposed to learn and they come across the guy who assaulted Marcelo in his youth.


Yeah. And Carlos, a very angry confrontation on them. Oh, but that guy is talking with a guy who mentions eating cats. Oh yeah. I've heard about and I thought it was an interesting details were pretty gross. Yeah. Yeah.


So so the chauffeur Leno is trying to convince this other guy to come back with him, presumably. Yeah. Like he tried to do too much.


I mean, maybe from the context of that conversation, it seemed like they both knew what was going on without outside context.


Maybe not. Right, but take advantage of him. Take advantage of the situation.


Yeah. Yeah. Except he doesn't say, do you want to come back and have sex? He says, Johnny, come back, I've got food or I can give you.


She's like stroking him with his like with the legs and stuff. I don't know like. Outside of the admittedly very important context that we know that Leanna's a rapist is seemed more like regular flirting, but well, I don't I feel like the situation, the specific situation is very natural advantage of him.


I mean, regardless of anything else, you know, is already problematic.


And he's a tad problematic. Yeah, but regardless, I mean, we should we should we should say that Marcelo thinks it Lenos dead because he thinks he can because he thinks he killed him.


And it turns out he never did. Yeah, you just had a. So demand sort of like after affirming his identity, doesn't really confront him. Yeah, instead, what he does is that he looks at the passing crowd and says, hey, that guy's a fascist again and again, homosexual, which, as we know, is what Marcelo is yet in the hopes of getting the crowd go after him. And then he turns around to Italo Blindman.


And in a moment of really crowning cowardice, he's also a fascist.




Which I don't know. I mean, just out of a moral vacuum, I wasn't sure how I felt about that, because I guess because it is obviously terrible to kill a friend who's blind like that, on the other hand, is a fascist. So I it. But regardless, Marcelo completely sells out Etowah. Yeah, um, and yeah, on the holidays, which, you know, is a good thing, really, um. He is black and then, well, yeah, he's blind, so I feel sorry for the artist, but I was also thinking, you know, it's tough on.


It's not really a tough one, really tough, but like you feel sorry for him because he's blind over, you're actually thinking about what he believes. Yeah. Uh, you know, just deserts. Uh, he doesn't get a pass. No, no. And then.


And then and then, um, Marcelo sits down next to the guy that Lena was trying to take advantage of. And you don't know what happens after that.


Yeah, I just saw vans which overlooks the camera, the flames going, yeah, he has nothing. He lost everything.


The guy is very neat. So I wonder if that's another one of your another one of your homosexual things. Hmmm, maybe it's not in the classical style. Uh. Regardless, the film on the somber note that one child has destroyed himself and everyone around him, yeah, his desire to conform and now he is alone. Yeah. And yeah. Roll credits, roll credits, the credits are at the start. Yeah, they should be. I don't know if I've had this take before on the podcast, but I am a staunch believer that credit should always be at the start of the film.


How would you have a post credit sequencer? This is another advantage, the film, the film would be a good as the whole film with the most credits. Exactly. Yeah, if we can get rid of first credit scenes, then so that no great loss.


All right. Have I told you my post credit scene story? That's not very good, but go ahead.


So I was what I was watching Jurassic World pulling kingdom and and ended and literally everyone in the cinema left. And I was sitting there waiting for those credits. The credits kept going and on. And then a woman came in to clean the cinema and she was sitting sat like standing down in front of herself, waiting to clean it. And then I was like, oh, you can you can clean it, you know, you can come in and clean.


She's like, oh, we're not we're not allowed to come in. And there's people in there. So then I like Google that double check. There is definitely a postscript sequence in. There was so I was just sitting there watching the whole credits with this poor woman who wanted to go cinema. And then it was a very disappointing post credit sequence, so.


Oh sure, yeah. Subcircuit. Why don't you tell me.


And the flying dinosaurs camera, which kind of is and fly into a city and like land on something, I was like the same would happen.


Yeah, exactly. There's no like big reveal or anything and it kind of looks like they're landing a knife or whatever. And so you're like, oh, that's cool. I mean, it spreads worldwide, but then you realize it's like fake Eiffel Tower in Las Vegas, in Vegas. So they've not traveled far at all.


So, yeah, I was a bit disappointing, but yeah.


Yeah I know. Anyway, I more the film. I don't really have anything to say other than that. It's really, really good. Um, there's some kind of really well. Oh yeah.


It has a good dog and the puppies. Well as puppies in his mom's bed. Mhm.


Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. He's also becomes the real he. We see his home life. He's also rich. Yeah. Like it seems somewhat dysfunctional. Uh he talks to his mother and tells her that she should be dressed properly. Yeah. I mean clearly like judges are a lot and you know, I think kind of enjoys having power over people. And then we know that his mother, you know, has been having relations with their.


Sure. For his Japanese man. Yeah. Uh, it's called Campbell.


And they, um, the guy kills them, basically kills him. And then there's a funny bit whether he's his mom shouting for him and then he sees the hat, like sitting out and he just kicks under the car and he keeps saying halfheartedly, yeah, I think that's actually a good point. There are some really funny bits in this film as well.


Um, like, I think the important yeah. The important thing about all the funny bits is that almost all of them are about how pathetic marshmallowy.


Yeah, definitely. They don't want to take away they don't take away from the main themes or plot, but there's lots of nice little jokes and bits of humor.


Yeah, she's nice.


She kind of broke up the way I feel and well sort of difficult line to walk when you're talking about fascism in film is that you have to simultaneously show that, like, these are very powerful forces. But like you also can't you also don't want to give them dignity, as it were, because they don't deserve to be. Wouldn't really have it, as it were, you know, like this this idea that if you undercut, like, too much of their dignity and let you go for, like, a funny thing, things like, you know, like Hitler priorities and stuff, then you're sort of undercutting how serious they were and how serious a threat to them is.


Yeah, but if you show them as being too serious and too powerful, then you're making it seem very appealing. Yeah. For people who are into that ideology. Yeah.


This one. Yeah.


So this sort of obviously does show how powerful they were, but it does also show the contradictions in the ideology. Unbe does regularly deflate. Marcelo's ego is not change.


And also, you don't you don't you never see. The you never really see. Big. Effects of what you do, I mean, you see the aftermath of that, but, you know, you never see like a bunch of soldiers marching through the street or or speeches being given or anything like, oh, that this is very much I'm just sad that time in no way is.


Yeah, I mean, this wider context, you know, is this individual story that works, that works as a metaphor maybe for the whole system, but it's not you know, it's not it's not looking at the overall thing. It's just looking people within the system.


And exactly. I mean, it's. Yes, Marcelo's story, as it were, and obviously Marcelli was driven by what drove many, many people, but it's the scale of it's a very small scale story on a large scale. Exactly. Which are the best kind of stories? Yeah, I'm. But yeah, is just showing how these forces are bigger than him to destroy his life obviously makes it very clear that my childhood is completely culpable for the choices he made.




But yeah, just in terms of thinking about this film and thinking about fascism as a whole and like the sway it holds over people, I thought it was a very interesting exploration of it, definitely. I found still very relevant today, which is why this is, you know, always important, as it were, a nice surprise, the word from a period piece. Yeah, I thought yeah. As we said, there's a very good job of being very.


Sensitive to Marcelo's struggle, but making absolutely sure not to give run out or yeah, um, so basically my some opinion of the film is that it is an incredibly good story, but as I say, is shot really beautifully. Like this keeps being an issue in this podcast because, like, I can't talk about it properly, but, um, it really is a film that is best in the visual department, as it were. Yeah. Like just spectacular.


Wow. So yeah, I like it a lot. I would rate it. Got the criterion release really own film, but I'm going to go that far for and I looked up and there's no criterion release but there's a special edition to get that right.


Yeah I bedri to watch if it's on. Wow. That's a big star.


Yeah. Yeah I would probably. Yeah. So important for us to disagree is let me add this into the. My official rating chart here. But yeah, I genuinely share this your first five, Jamie, yeah, I just don't think either of us have given by I genuinely think it's one of the best films are seen in terms of quality. Like, I wouldn't say it's like a favorite because like for me, a favorite. Something has to speak to you personally.


Yeah. I wouldn't say I don't see my struggle in this, as it were. I was probably a good thing. But, you know, it's just in terms of actual quality, I think it's completely fantastic.


Well. Well, as very good ratings and IMDB, so I'm the odd one out for sure. Yeah, I just I find a bit boring in in places. Oh, yeah, I will say that I watched this film in two parts because I didn't have much time, but that's the way to watch it for sure.


Well, yeah, but I mean, perhaps does mean that the risk of me getting bored was. Oh, yeah, yeah.


Whatever you're watching about, I yeah, I feel like it is good, but it's definitely one of those films you need to be in the mindset to watch it. Yeah.


So actually yeah I am, I'm going to watch if it's on. But I would say if you feel like you're in the mindset to watch it then go out your way to watch it. Yeah. I don't buy it though unless you want to test it yourself or Jamie's ratings, in which case yeah.


But averages out to a stream.


I think the averages out to sort of um stream it or buy it. It's a three point five on average. So yeah.


You know you can do that anyway. Uh yeah. It's good.


Um, I don't think so. Let me have a look here. Um.


Duty to do to do this is really good content when I'm when neither of us is saying anything.


It's fantastic, really. I think that's what it was say in the radio is that you need that air and water. Yeah, exactly. It's like pillow shots, you know, in there.


No, I don't think I have anything I have. Oh, so there he goes. He goes to an art gallery, is that right? Yeah. That woman is like, I'm crazy. I'm a complete maniac. Who was that? Did I miss something with that?


I think as character, we know it's just right. It's just someone is there. That is. Is that where he gets his mission? Yeah. Yeah. Right. So she's just analyzing it to go back to what I was saying before. I is a person who's unusual and who has an immediate connection with.


Right. Well, you really going hard in that argument? I am.


I think it's a very clear motive. And therefore, I'm going to I'm going to take my claim to the other noticer of things, you know?


Yeah, I think well, I think, um, I don't know if I was bored by it, but I think, as I've said before, and a film that is subtitled for me needs to grab my attention more than a film that is not, uh, not because I see it as having less value, but just because, um, the sort of specific focus is needed to stay really gripped into subtitled film is different for me.


And I think probably that's probably what it was more. So I did like it, but I was just and it really requires that focus. And I don't feel like it necessarily got that from me. Process the disgusting wherever I am, I was inoculated against such an effect. Yeah, no, I mean, I'm not I I watch a lot of subtitled films, but I just feel like there's a you can get away with being less focused on film that isn't subtitles, whereas as soon as you lose focus on what it's a man's on the outside of your attention.


Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I feel like that's a kind of two way thing where the film needs to be engaging enough to get the word out there or to capture that. And I'm not sure I'm not sure if this one is. That's that's what it is. I'm not sure if this one I'm not sure if this one was engaging enough to capture my attention the whole time. And I feel like that probably is why. And I didn't enjoy it as much because I probably missed a couple.


I mean, I'm sorry.


Position to lecture you on paying attention to the films. You watch those? Um, no, she never did that.


And yes, I feel like maybe that's but but by the same time, on the one hand, that's my bad for not necessarily getting my full attention, but at the same time I feel like it's got nothing to it. I've watched something in films that have got my full attention because I felt like they've warranted it. And if they've been engaging enough to keep it. Yeah, so that's yeah. That's what I would say and, um, we could talk about the cast if you don't talk about him.


Yeah, I don't. Well, I say it's a very good job. I just there's no way.


And I recognized the guest guest on Muchin who played Mungindi. Leo was in The Godfather to. Well, there's apparently a shot from The Godfather to this inspired by Lee. Yeah, that's really cool.


So The Godfather two is obviously heavily linked to the main. The main actor is still alive, 89 years old. Oh. Oh, another thing, a lot of the actors are French and they're dubbed into Italian. Yeah, I mean, maybe I'm being stupid, but I think they were speaking French a lot in the film. Yes, I think so, but, um.


Also, the Italian dub, the apparently they speak and phonetic Italian so that the W better, so I don't know. So yeah, about half the cast is French, about half of Italian. And so I assume they were both assume they're both dubbed either way.


But yeah, the, the, the, the main guy was French but he ate anything that was in Italian, he spoke phonetically in Italian and then it was dubbed over by someone else. I didn't I didn't even notice it was dubbed. So they obviously did a good job. I don't know about you not in their school. And the director was by Bruno was the director.


By the director was Bernardo Bertolucci. Yeah, I'm interested to watch other films, because we've got one came out in August of 1970 as well, which you might watch right here.


You made last is clearly an asshole or. Oh, yeah. He was a Marxist. And so. So I'll take that.


You know, so, yeah.


You're about to say you directed Last Tango in Paris. Yeah. Which I feel I haven't seen that film. Apparently there's like a sex scene during that film and it turns out it was nonconsensual. I was doing the stupid Kubrick thing where he's like, if I surprise the actress with this, there will be more genuine and it'll be great. My film isn't this wonderful. And then like in late 2011, like, yeah, it was really horrible to her, but I don't feel guilty.


Yeah, well that yeah, it's for the art.


That's always an interesting argument, which is awful and genuinely. Disgusting behavior goes. But they are Jamie, unforgettable, but it's not. Firstly, you don't need to do that. And secondly, even if you did, it's not worth it. So obviously to art, Jamie.


Art, art, political.


But that's you know. You know that. Mhm. Yeah.


I just like any like where it's like, oh no you can't just sexually assault and harass actresses and then it's like Kubrick, Fellini virtually anyone is, he's like oh you know, I just, I need people to suffer from my art and then it would be more meaningful and violent and it's just no that's so obviously wrong. And you're a stupid idiot. I don't even get how you're an artist because you clearly have no empathy for this little thing you need.


Um, so, yeah, Last Tango in Paris, I feel like I've heard of. Or am I getting a computer. Oh definitely. Yeah. Yeah, that's cool.


And right. So oh there is also the line shopping is only for women. Husbands pay watching for that line to. I mean, I obviously it's sexist, but, I mean, I was really thinking about it in terms of like, OK, this one's to fuck off. Yeah, just like the intent of that scene.


People be in jail because they know this. Yeah.


They're making their husband pay, you know. Yeah, I'm just going to say just take a moment to that is easily the most sympathetic, as it were portrayed, look where people we've seen so far.


Yeah, I don't think it's got much. Obviously, the main character is also a fascist, which is.


Yeah, no, he's not the most sympathetic portrayal of fascists, you see. Yeah, but I'm just he's messy, it's complicated, but he's nuanced and it's not and I would say generally, I mean, I don't know, maybe because I guess none of the time sexual assault is treated like good people, but I don't think it's down on the whole thing, which is good. Good. Um, it's not disdainful of the very least. I think it's in sport, I'd say.


Oh, yeah, cool. Just as we're tracking social progress is worth noting that it seems it's it seems Bertolucci was more open than the other directors. We sure were. So we can really say because we only watch, like, my films. Yeah.


Well, you know, eight films, a snake. One. Oh, no. Oh, well, it depends if you count the other ones.


I mean, they went from 1970, the actress. Oh no, we've done nine because we did more Milliman as well as eight times I wonder.


Yeah, sure. OK, so it's based on a novel. I've already said that. No, you haven't. The novel by Alberto Moravia, who seem to be pretty similar, so, yeah, I'm kind of interested in reading it because apparently the reviews were saying that, like the characters motivations and stuff are much more detailed in the novel.


Right. It's like that's real. Yeah, but I suppose that is because obviously because in the film, I think you can get a pretty clear picture of what characters involved in thinking, with the possible exception of the professor's wife, would be better. But I would be more interested to see how they're for purposes of detail, because I think obviously Marcelo's struggles, as it were, with his need to conform very central to the film. So we should see how those votes are cast.


Yeah. Cuz I read that. Ba dum. Oh, yeah, cool, well, humility. Not much, no. One thing I was going to talk about in terms of complaint is that I subscribed recently to a thing called the Sockpuppet Collective. You heard of it?


No. Yeah, cool, I and for a long time either, but is this a marketing strategy? This is really, really sounds like the sort of thing if I was approached a street in someone's life, you heard of the sort of collective. And I was like, no, no, it's cool. I hadn't either. But then I met this really cool guy in the street and he told me all this stuff is basically done.


And what happens is if you invest now, then we'll be getting most of the money from as it funnels upwards. You know as well is that they're a collection of four people for each game developers. And what they do is that they develop a new game every two weeks. And for Friedly reduce a month, you get to play. And they're all very interesting. They're all like only one or two hours long. They're all experimental and they're all like, you know, interesting ideas.


Right. So I played one, which was like I think it was part of the racial equality bundle. And it was called like standardly. And it was Laurel and Hardy named after who are in this film. Oh, yeah, it's great. Yeah. What was the purpose?


It's sure that Marshmallow is a clown, right? This is what I thought, but I wasn't sure if there was. I found it was you know, there are many jokes that want him to convey entirely wordlessly. But I like to, um. Okay. Yeah. So I played one, which was hello. About a spaceman, as it were. It was like an open WorldSpace game and you crafted resources and stuff and it was very cool. I was very small scale in a fun way.


And then I played you the sun only watch like a sandbox game set in the playground, as it were. And then they just yesterday released one, which is like a postapocalyptic driving game. And it's like on a Google Maps thing, a filter over. All right. So they're all very cool and interesting, but they are the more sort of I mean, you said to me one a week.


One every two weeks are the whelmed. Yeah, decently they serve, are they aware of the limitations and work work? Yeah, exactly. They're all very small scale. I don't think any of them would take one like two hours max to be. That's all like is about the presentation of an idea. Could it, um, they're all available on steam, but they cost a lot more.


So I wouldn't recommend you get access to all of them of this description.


No, no, you're right. Just get them out there at least. Right. But yeah, they're instant, too.


Um, so that's what you've been doing. Yeah, assuming you've done. That's the only thing that I'm willing to admit on air. OK, but get nice. Um. Well, so after our discussion last week, I bought American Truck similar Jamie, and it's not as good as your truck simulator.


And yeah, so I've always been curious, what's the difference between the two? So they really like your truck simulator?


Well, I think it's because I see once and less.


So the first thing is like the you're there's a lot more variety in your truck simulator that you really feel like you're on a long journey. And so you start in Edinburgh and you drive to Romania. And on that journey you pass through different countries and you pass through different terrain. And you really you really feel like you are doing that. Like the signs change and the routes change and the traffic changes and all that kind of stuff. And the I think it was the latest expansion that added Romanian stuff.


And and they've got border control between them. So that's like another element of the game where as you cross borders, you have to stop and get your passport checked and go through these scanners and stuff like that. And so that stuff to add some interest to the game, whereas American truck simulator is very. Samey, it's also it's on the West Coast and I've got all the expansions as well, because they're on sale and all of them, all of those states are all up the West Coast.


And and you just it even though they are different, you don't really you don't really get this feeling of traveling a huge distance. And obviously, obviously, all the distances are massively cut down because like, you drive miles in in a couple of hours, real, you know, a couple of hours real time, I think, across the whole map of Europe to somewhere.


And but in Europe, it seems that you feel like you've driven really far, whereas in this one it feels more like, um. Yeah, like you're not doing that. And they also it's not as nice looking, I don't think. And like there's this weird thing with the mirrors where everything pops out of the mirrors. It's more than a few feet behind you. So a neurotoxic layer. And it might to be honest, it might be because I've got a bunch of molds in your truck simulator.


They're like graphics, molds and stuff.


I'm not sure, of course, but it could be it could be that. But what I'm telling you, it's similar. If I look in the mirror, I can see all the way behind me, whereas of American truck simulator, the stuff just disappearing as it goes. And that kind of takes over the immersion of it. And I don't know, it's kind of a weird one. And I have been putting American targets in there. And it's definitely it's definitely fun to because I've had the same truck in your truck simulator for years now because, like, I bought my first one and then I fully customized it.


And it's now like fully, fully customized. Nothing I can do. Yeah. So it's where you want it to be. Exactly. So it's nice to be driving like a different thing.


And then all the trucks are very American. They're like these the big long ones rather than the flags and stuff. So like oh that's different. And it is nice to have the variety of landscape and stuff. So I have been playing in, but I can definitely say that if you've not played either of them, get your truck simulator too, because it's so much better and it just feels a lot bigger. Yeah, so that's and I've also I also been playing about Minecraft, um, but I need to I think anything still some mods because it's really a double game for them.


Hmm, I always, though I know you did, but, um, you've also been playing Sniper Elite four, right? Oh, yeah.


I finished the forthcoming campaign.


Yeah, it's on sale pretty cheap right now. And this specific game.


Yeah. So I played Zombie Army too. I had zombie army to my steam library and it was one of these games I just had. Yeah. And then I had played it a bit and then when locked inside I played a lot more because I was like, oh, I need something to play.


And it's a fun little mission based game and it's obviously kind of an offshoot sniper elite. And so I thought, well, that was fun. Let me get sniper, which I did sniper for. And yeah, I started playing that at the start of lockdown, took a big break and then I finished it, finished the main campaign the other day. And yeah, it's a fun game. It's kind of like, man, you have to plan your route and assassinations and notably over the shit and you have to shoot your way to an end run around.


That's the one with the x ray stuff, right? Yeah.


And that's I mean, that's a really satisfying thing is when you snipe someone you like, it goes into X and you see there explode wherever the developer branched out into something else recently, didn't they?


I'm going to look it up.


And it's rebellion games they made and they made the strange brigade, which is the game I really want to play. And it's a multiplayer one and I don't have any friends, so. OK, yeah, I mean, rebellion's made a lot of games, but recently I think it's been a lot of sniper stuff. Yeah, probably the first game is evil genius and which have no problem, but they're making a sequel to that next year.


I think the really. Oh wow. Yeah, they released a lot. Well, I think, you know, I don't know. Maybe I'm just I'm thinking of of these all sound. It's very nice that they all sound quite similar. Yeah, I mean, they definitely have. Sure. About The Simpsons game, did they. Yeah. All right. And yeah, you definitely have.


But the less good version, the PlayStation two and the wee. And yes, so they do police and then I also I bought the Zombie Army trilogy, which is the first and second remastered, along with the third one, which had not played yet. But yeah, once once I finish DLC for sniffily for I might. But the other fun they're British developers are which is nice. Oh that's always nice.


Yeah. Always nice to support British developer.


Other thing that I remember saying just to finish the saga is that I completed Spider-Man. Oh nice. I like the ending. A lot of good angst or big angst fan. Yeah. I've been able to explore that so much in this podcast.


It's made me very sad for films being not that angsty. But, you know, one day, one day we will find something quite possibly pretentious and torturous and I will gush. But yes, Spider-Man is very sad for the final act in ways that are very good for me. Nice. I was I was well-fed.


Are you able to play the DLC? I've got. Yep. Yeah, are you going? So I won't I do do immediately just someplace nice, although at some point you see what I mean, like rush freedom, because like once you finish the game, you kind of.


Well, that's the thing with DLC and stuff like it's meant to be like you finish the game and then like six months later, the DLC comes out and they go back in. Yeah, but you're doing it the seems like, you know, you've had the full dramatic arc of the game, as it were. Yeah. I'm like, you're basking in like whatever sense of achievement you have.


And it's like also there's some more that is that's actually going back to nature for that's exactly what happened. So I finished the game and then I started the first Dossi mission and then I'd given up on it for now because I was like, I've kind of lost the. The will find is that whenever I get like it, like a lot of times I'll start looking, I'll play like the first game of the franchise or something like, oh, this is like super for me.


I love this. This is fantastic. And then I'll be like, OK, I'm going to buy a sequel immediately because I liked it so much. And then I immediately burned out on it because I've played like one and a half games in a row and I never finished second one. Yeah. Yeah. Like it's important to pace yourself is you're right. And Oh yeah.


It's talking about pacing yourself and also been watching all the Marvel films.


Oh yeah. Of course you have Housetop. I mean you've told me a bit but how's it been going.


Well overall let me have a look. How many. Unfortunate and. I just watched. I can't remember. Oh, Dr. Strange, so yeah, yeah, I've watched Iron Man, Incredible Hulk, Iron Man, two for Captain America, Avengers Iron Man three for two. Captain America, two Guardians of the Galaxy, Avengers, two Antman, Captain America, Civil War and Doctor Strange have watched so far. I cannot believe you're not cold yourself.


Yeah, well well, the thing is, so I hadn't I hadn't seen any of the ones from Iron Man, three frou to four to Captain America, the Winter Soldier.


So the first was that one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. The first nine was over a new experience entirely. And then I watched Guardians of the Galaxy again, which they like Avengers Age of two. And I watched the game, which it's whatever, and then and is the best one by far. So I was happy to watch that again. Civil war is kind of right, and I've not seen doctor change, so so far I've actually not had to rework much.


And it's it's.


They've definitely picked up a lot since Antman, like the first ones are good, but they're incredibly formulaic. It's like the main character is a superhero and he loses his powers a bit and someone else has got the same powers that he had.


But they're every line has to be like, just what if he roba exactly every villains like, oh, they've got the same powers, but they're slightly more powerful.


The main hero is really going to have to dig down to to beat this guy and then they do.


And whereas, I mean, that can continue through all of them, even if you like The Avengers and the sequels to the other ones, whereas Iron Man is the first one, I think that feels different, even though he is fighting and essentially the same same thing in another version itself, it has the whole subplot, the case thing and stuff.


And I think I think that's where they started introducing or maybe maybe Guardians of the Galaxy is where they saw it, introducing different genres, a bit more like, yeah, I always like it's always like a subcategory is they're all so resolutely action adventures.


Yeah, exactly. And have an extra flavor.


And I feel like they can try to do that with like they added the mythology stuff in four and their world or to something Captain America. But I feel like you don't really notice it, whereas once you get to Guardians of the Galaxy and Iron Man and stuff, it starts becoming clearer that they've realized that they really need to play into this and then talk to Strange. I really like to see all those first time I'd watched it. And again, they really play heavily into the.


Yeah, the whole thing about where I gave up, I was like, I really I don't need this anymore.


Yeah, well, anyway, I've got however many more films to watch. See your process. There's only shades of the ones I've got left to watch.


Black Panther is the only one I've not seen, so it's going to be interesting, but, um, yeah, I think I think it's they are very good films and in certain ways. So, like, they in a lot of cases, they're definitely for kids. And yeah, you can tell and I think that's another thing that they've realized and they've kind of moved away from that where there's still for kids, they've got a lot more for other people.


They've definitely moved towards them. And I need to go for a sort of formula. But I think once you start. Once they start using the whole, like, furneaux timeline, you realize that they've been building little things in right from the first one, which I think I think that's really the thing that's impressive about it is and how much has been fought through and built in little snippets of information and little things that have just then having now already seen like the big finale, you can really see how it all builds together, which I like I think is really clever and really well.


Well, I always find that pretty much I think I enjoy it. While the second time for you, because you can sort of view as a whole world where things are building. Yeah.


There's a part of me that wishes that I'd just watch them in order in the first place rather than jumping in. Happy for you. But there's another part of me that there's no part of me that is glad that I'm not experiencing these films for the first time, but with the context of what comes later. Yeah, it's kind of a mixed it's a mixed bag. And also, I mean, once I've once I've done this, I'll never have to watch them again because I have seen them in order and have the knowledge of the order.


Yeah, actually, I will say before I move onto the second thing, there's an article written for the release of Avengers Infinity War. Right. Was written by a journalist who went to, you know, how some sort of mostert this Marfan's of every Marvel film might be released to that point. So as a journalist, you have to watch all of them sort of stuck in a theater for 72 hours, which is very funny. If I had it there, if I could even remember the outline, I'd say if I look it up with the FBI.


The second thing I was going to say is that I'm very impressed by your progress in terms of watching through these, because eagle eyed viewers will remember I was doing a Studio Ghibli marathon and I still am. And I love those films intensely. Right. Really, none of them I dislike. And I'm only eight films for three months, whereas I'm what'd I say, nine?


Oh, no more than nine. Yeah. One, two, three, four, five, six and eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, 12, 13, 14 films in and in the last like four days, five days or so.


But I mean I'm watching them in the background in many cases.


Yeah. Okay.


Well um, no, not in the background in terms of, um, focusing purely on something else, but definitely in the background in terms of um, not. Focusing purely on them. So one thing I want to say, and Captain America, civil war is really not a Captain America film. And yeah, and I remember when I saw it in a cinema and I was like, this is not a great American film, even though I had no knowledge of the other films that come before it.


But I really don't know why. I really don't like it that much.


Yeah, I don't I don't think it's that great. And it's so obvious in The Avengers film. But they presume they call the Captain America just because of the comics. Yeah, because you were a. It was just an event, as it were, yeah, I think the comics were Captain America. Certainly it was serious. Was not. No, I think the series was either just old civil war or it was like the one in every series simultaneously.


Oh, maybe. Let me see. Oh, yeah, I do. Yeah, I really don't know why they called it Captain America. OK, so this is an issue. Limited series was just civil war. Yeah, I'm.


I don't know why, but anyway, that was that was something big, I really don't know why they just call it The Adventures of War and because that's well, I guess it would have been like everyone in the film has to act like a surprisingly out of character just to get to work, just to fiddle.


And yeah, it's like I don't think this happens. And the source material is in the film. They also have to show that like they were being manipulated by an outside party, which is lazy, but she Spidy is introduced.


So that's good.


Yeah. And the worst possible way that I don't know if Robert and I have a relevant time for me to mention. I mean, surprisingly often I have to mention that I do not like Marvel's Spider-Man on this podcast for films released in 1970. But to really underline, I do not like the wife of the new Marvel Spider-Man Ramie or Die Nice.


OK, and I should also say as well as meaning the marvel of my wife and I have also been watching other films.


I have not been exclusively including one of the best films ever seen. It was on BBC two nights ago. Yeah, it's called Marvelous. You heard of it. Oh yeah.


Have you seen. Are you talking about. No, no.


It's so good. It's so good. It's about it's a true story which first of all gets like a big bonus. And because it's done well, I mean it's about this guy with learning difficulties that. I don't know I don't know how to describe it, but he just like does his own thing and he doesn't let it stop him at all. And at the same time, it makes him a very unique character. And he has all these famous friends and he keeps telling people that he's like friends of this person, friends of that person.


It's like a really famous person and of course, you don't believe in. And then it's revealed that he actually is friends of him. And like, if it was just in a film, you'd be like, okay, whatever. But then you find out that that's like actually true. I don't know. It's just it's really it's a really good film and it's really, really emotional.


Like, I was crying. I was I was laughing.


I was I was also a fist pump, the air. I just pumped the air.


I know you're good to go mad, but really it's a really good film. Marvelous. Yeah.


Yeah. Wild at heart as well. If we're just going down that list, which is also a very good film.


Oh well I watched Waterlilies on movie and I really need to watch, which was a great movie.


You're very kind and given your logging and I'm taking a bath, I gave you my login for me so I'm was the film called the.


It's like I'm getting like my movie right now and see I watched American because I'm sure the people that are listening and are still listening are really interested in what's a movie because they're a big film buffs viewing history, so. Oh, yeah. So there's there's a Popeye cartoon. On leaving days, it's leaving in five days, so I'd recommend that the time I'll take you through it, there's probably about three days.


Yes, sorry, I be and Sunday. So it's going in three days. Popeye the sailor. Sinbad the Sailor. And it's really cool, just as an early animation or not early animation.


But I'll wait the seven seals on here. I really want to watch that. Cool. And and also waterlily waterlilies is really good and antiphonal is really good. Those are my movie recommendations. Yeah.


Oh, cool corrida. I'm just, uh, I clearly haven't tried movie for a long time. I was keeping up though.


Shall we. Is there anything else you wanna talk about or shall we wrap up. Nah, let's see.


You can watch something, a movie and that way. Yeah. So thank you all for listening.


Um I'm sure no one listened to that last bit where we talked about what microfilms I've been watching.


But, um, if you have a comment. If you have comment. I hate Marvel Spider-Man. Yeah. I don't hate Marvel so nobody but Jamie does so cool. Yeah.


He sucks. He's such a god damn just. All right. Bye everyone. I hate him but.