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We start awkwardly and awkwardly while this is wild. This is a wild episode, this is already my favorite episode of the podcast.


Oh, it I'm I'm overwhelmed. Let's just go around and say how we're feeling. I feel overwhelmed. I'm, like, nervously excited in a good way. I'm this is a powerful moment to Virgo, which is in the same room.


The woman who. Is my real life Vergos sister, past life twin who I cast to play my best friend in a television show because I wanted her to be my best friend in real life. And then it happened. And then she remade the movie that made me who I am.


What is that? Is there a word for that, for ayahuasca?


For everything you just said, is there one word, a word like what are you to me? What's the first thing I ask everyone is, are we friends? What's our relationship?


Well, we're obviously friends that friends is calling me your friend is so insulting. I know that I don't know what the word is.


It is like I always Lister Jones, who played my best friend on the lauded TV show Whitney. We are what are we to each other, we died together in the family. Yeah, we're three days apart. Yeah. September 1st, September 4th, we had our 30th birthday together. We did. At a shitty bar. Yes. With Robin. The soundtrack was wrong.


The soundtrack was Robin.


I was like, oh, the Badrawi. I threw my back out dancing to dancing on my own. Yeah. We played Reanna birthday cake. Yes we did. When our cakes. Yes. We found love in a hopeless place is our anthem. It is. Yeah. I almost pulled an Achilles tendon dancing to love in a hopeless place with Zoe between scenes of the TV show. Whitney. Yes.


Benton, what are you can you describe our relationship because we can't find the words.


I don't know. That's so nice, you guys. We're getting to do all that during those songs. I worked with them all, so that must be nice. You were attorneys.


You were working in Georgia. You felt. But you were a fan of the show, Whitney.


Yes, I was. I used to write down the the lines, you would say to figure out how to write a script when I was a freshman in college.


So you would write down Whitney and Lily's lines. So you've watched our friendship.


Yeah, I guess in real time, I didn't know it was real when I was watching it on TV. Yeah.


So that's shocking to find out and what happened with Zoey, which is so important because when Esther came on the podcast she brought up, she was like, we need to revisit that show.


She goes, we need to revisit how sexist that whole thing was, the mass, the Salem witch trials, the mass shaming of me.


Yeah. A woman who didn't want to get married, it was they didn't like it because it was supposed to be a gender reversal.


A man was the woman in the woman was the man. Right. And the public shaming.


It happened to Lana Del Rey kind of around the same time when she went on SNL that it became the gladiator show like I was in the gladiator show of ancient Rome.


Like I feel like I was in a weird way, like the first person to be canceled or something.


All but threw tomatoes that. Well, yeah. You are also a you were also like wildly successful, very young. I was also loud and unapologetic. And you were like forging your own skin.


Isn't it funny that you say I'm unapologetic when I at that time was like, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. Yeah, it's the most I was so sorry for my existence. I just ostensibly.


Yes, maybe personally, but I felt like professionally you were not sorry for your existence. You were like bold in the way that we all should be, you know, like you were like you had three shows in production at the same time. How dare she? And yeah. And I think there was a lot of how dare she? How dare she? Who does she think she is?


If I wasn't me, that's what I would have thought. Yeah, it was interesting. And I and it, I mean, I mean I'm very triggering to people. I think it was very triggering to people.


I had an eating disorder at the time. I was incredibly thin, I was loud. And it was actually so interesting to me because it was created by a woman.


It was written by a woman starring the same woman. Starring the same woman. Yeah, it was a female showrunner. Half the writers room was a woman. And then Emily Nussbaum said that I was sexist.


What's happening is a critic for The New York Post or Times or one of those things that is, I think, still in business, just because they take money from lawyers that pay off them, how else would they have money?


So look at that.


They said you were allowed, that you were annoying. They said you had an eating disease. Is your finger coming over this camera? Thank you. So they said you had an eating disorder?


I had no, I had an eating disorder, but they said I was what I remember. Remember the reviews? There was a review that was like about my appearance.


Like if we were to pull up those reviews now of men reviewing my appearance in the show, talking about my body in a like a New York Times review. And that happened a lot.


I think it's still happened. I mean, that's the thing about like there's so much like latent misogyny that's happening at internalized misogyny.


Women have. Yeah, I think I think for me, the biggest awakening I've had and in watching your movie, The Craft, which is out now.


It's we women internalized it, too, yes, oh, one 100 percent.


So the line in the movie, women won't use their power against each other, but it's the line.


Yeah, the company's character.


Yeah. David says I wrote it down and yeah. Women. The thing thing about women with power is that they'll always use against each other, which was not that is not my perspective. That was him like gaslighting, the character that Kelly Sweeney plays. But I do think that that also does happen.


I think that, like I realized that I had internalized so much misogyny and that I was sexist, too. But other like the people that hurt me the most were women, the women that came for me, you know. Um, but Zoe played my best friend on the show. Do you remember what happened when we met? Yeah, of course.


First of all, change my life. There's a lot of things. Also, the house I live in, I say to everyone, there's the house that would be built because it's true, because I was a working actor and this is the house that I was working actor but couldn't I wasn't making like a proper living at it. And I was just hustling so hard and going to so many auditions and I could not get on a series. And that was like what I wanted.


And then I showed up.


You flew to New York and I came into the room.


No, you're missing many things. No, I'm not. You're missing the Kris Jenner part where I made you dye your hair.


No, that was after you came to the room to Virgo. You came to the room. Don't interrupt me. Oh, I'm sorry. Let me see you get to do that.


Yeah, my dad, my turn anyway, so you can see why you came to New York and I walked in, I remember at NBC and I sat down and you said, why aren't you famous yet? I was like, so.


So I was like both moved and insulted. I said, why aren't you famous? What's going on? Yeah. Which is like, yeah. And I didn't I didn't have an answer. And when he was like, well then like let's work on that together.


And then I said, OK, you've been with someone for eight years and you're not married. That's what this show's about.


Oh my God. I don't remember that. That's right. And I said, why aren't you guys engaged? And so I said, because I'm waiting till he can afford the ring I deserve.


Am I getting. She ghedi, she said, I'm waiting until he can afford the ring, I do not know, pause, no stutter, nothing came out.


And then I remember the literally the audition scene I had seen when you're auditioning. I mean, you see hundreds and hundreds of people, all great, great people don't get jobs for many reason because you're when you audition for a job, you're coming in to play something that I imagine. So everyone's going to be disappointing. Yeah, right. Yeah. And I had never had a friend before, so I was writing friends and didn't know what they were.


It was a science fiction show. And the first two lines of the Lily character, which is so funny that the lead character in the movie name is Lily. So so I make that connection right now. I did like everything is connected.


Yeah, I know, because as soon as it was like, Hi Lily, that was his name in my show. OK, got it. Got it. Got it.


And we're in a simulation.


Go back. We're talking about we're all go back to the multiverse. It's not about the craft now streaming on the lines were high. The first line of Lily's character, Zoe's character was high period. High period. Right. And at most actors will come and just go, hi. Hi. And Zoe, did a reversal turn, what do you call it as an actress?


I don't even know.


I don't know. What did I do? You just went hi hot like she did. You did a reversal and she made something. She used her witchcraft. And because you're already a writer director and in your brain, you were already so you made a straight line, a joke.


Oh, and that was it.


And then and then she and then she paid for me to go get my hair dyed because we look too similar because of our our coloring and because I hadn't met you yet.


And I tried to hire Jun Rafeal and they said we looked to similar coloring lines because the way that network television hires is based on optics of checking boxes and all the white people aren't allowed to look like the same white people. Right. So we. So you paid for me to get my to my hair red before the test. I hadn't gotten the job, you understand. So Whitney was like shelling out money like there was already.


I did not have. You didn't have. But I knew you were going to get it if you didn't like me. And then the and then I hired I had so we used to test you through something called a test which is that you would have three actresses come in in front of the network and they would all audition.


God, it's so surreal to think about now.


I know in in person, in front of them thinking about in front of a bunch of sexual predators, essentially you and I brought in a decoy.


You know, the worst actress I saw, I called in to test against Zoe so that the choice was so I had to trick them.


It was really the greatest gift anyone's ever given me and her because her quote, she got to have.


What happened is you would get it right. Right. And she got to test for something. Right. So we build her self-esteem. She didn't know she was a decoy. No, I don't regret that one bit.


Her well, Jennifer Lawrence, you're welcome. Never worked well. Yes. And then, yeah, it was like it worked out perfectly.


It was witchcraft magic.


It was unbelievable.


And it was like, you know, it's those any of any dream that comes true or you just like been waiting for it for so long and then it like happens. It was just like but it happened. It didn't happen. Like from luck. It happened from you believing in me and like fighting for me. And that's I like so deeply moving and I will cry multiple times during this time.


Oh trust me. Trust me.


Because it is like when you talk about women supporting women like it was it was just such it was it's the greatest gift anyone's ever given me really, because it opened every door for me as a television actor, which is how I have been able to be supporting myself. Yeah. Yeah, thank you for making that so easy and then it's interesting because I think about you and our relationship is so complicated.


Yeah, because when I was doing that show, I was unconscious.


I was so scared. Yeah. And so run by my character defects and inner child and programming and alcoholic.


Ghosts like you are also under an extreme amount of pressure and under a microscope, I was there. Was it because it was a combination of so many?


Yeah, it was just a confluence of like all the, you know, dark forces.


But I was it was very much my inner child was running the show. Yeah. And what I like to say is like the my my inner child got covid and died and now I'm and I don't like the pandemic kill my inner child. And I'm an adult.


I'm waiting for mine to go. Yeah, I know I can.


I kept thinking, oh, I know we can have that. I think we could have for your other child here today. I could use that. How's that work.


But I was my fear was running the show and I was also so uncomfortable being in a position of power. I was I was in a position of I was thrust into a position of power so quickly. And I didn't want power, I wanted love. And when you're in a position of power, especially as a loud woman and you're taking up space, people resent you. So I found myself like all of a sudden I'm in a position of power and it's actually making me feel more abandoned and alone when the whole reason I created this whole thing was to pay people to love me.


I mean, it's really what it's really subconsciously what I why I became a writer and made the show is I didn't have a family. I didn't have the love I wanted.


I wrote the life I wanted.


And then the making of the show was the you're really you're set in. Your crew is your family. Absolutely. And then I wrote the best friend I wanted, and then I hired the best friend I wanted in real life.


I mean, it's really it's really profound.


It is. And then and then our relationship starts getting fucked up because now I'm your boss. Yeah. And we aren't equals. Yeah. Haven't we all been there?


Yeah, and then the added complication of being two women that are and now and I'm your boss, so we can never have a pure relationship.


Yeah, but I will say to both of our credits that when you have a friend who you can call and be like, I'm so fucking mad at you. Yes. Here's why I like their work.


That's real. During the two seasons of Whitney. Yeah. We call each other screaming. I mean, there were screaming match. You know, there were also crying matches. I just remember weeping a lot. Yeah, no. Yeah. Because my inner child is just like always. And what was I doing?


Because I was I was not. I was so. And what. Because I remember a specific one where we got to pick up like we got a pick up order or something and I didn't tell you guys about it and you found out, oh my God, I see.


I don't even remember that everything. And I got upset. Yeah.


So you called on behalf of the whole cast, like a spokesperson. Like I didn't tell you. It's like verbal. By the time you guys figure out what to say, I could have already done it. That's just Virgo, which why no one is for sure. I didn't.


It was like I had not I didn't know how to be a boss. I wasn't an adult.


I didn't know I was so distracted.


I was it was also a time where I was I had such chronic migraines because of my unrecovered codependents and chemical imbalance. You know, I was like, you know, I was a zombie. Yeah.


And, well, I and I just remember in the hair and makeup room, I'm like, that's like this like moment where especially on tape night when you're shooting live, which we did, it was like everyone's like, buddy, buddy, buddy, you're getting the energy up.


And you at the beginning of the show, which you learned what you needed, but you were like, no one can speak. And so in the makeup room before shooting.


And so we would all sit there quietly, you know, because you were like, OK, so this was what I thought was this is before I understood that all humans just need to be seen and recognized. I didn't know. I didn't understand. And I went, I'm so I have so little bandwidth. One hundred percent of the hair and makeup room should be quiet. My codependents, I thought I was helping everyone. I thought I was liberating everyone from the pressure to do small talk because the hair and makeup room is OK.


And there is that pressure. But it's also everyone has different creative processes. Some people need to be like celebrating and. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I and I was also writing the script for the night. That's what I'm saying. We all understood. But again, to your credit, you then were like, you know, I'm gonna go get my own hair makeup room, which is what was perfect because then you pretend I'm not your equal.


Yeah, I know, but you weren't you were our boss. I mean, you were a boss. And ah, listen, I've had to direct people who are in my cast. I mean, and it's an interesting thing.


This is because Zoe is Durex right. Stars in her own movies.


And I remember when Dan O'Brien, who played Mark on the show, the police officer that was a network note I shouldn't have taken and look like a stripper.


Look like I mean, if if someone in a police uniform shows up at the door, it's like, are you in the YMCA? Is this Halloween?


Like, I was like, shouldn't have taken that. No brilliant actor. He I remember were like in a scene together. And I was like, oh, let's do let's add this. And he was like, I can't do this. He's like a you know, he's a very serious he was like, I can't like he I remember him like snapping one day. Yeah. And it like shattered me. Yeah. Because I didn't know how to fix it and I had such deep emotional perfectionism, like I just was like, well yeah.


And all of us also really wanted to please you. So it was so it was that like it which I never thought I like. At that point in my life.


Everyone's behavior was personal to me. I thought any time someone you know what I mean? It's like it's before I understood that everyone's doing the best they could. I I still have a hard time understanding. That's interesting. Yeah, right. Oh, I take everything personally.


It's hard. Yeah, it's hard. Like I take people's fashion choices personally. I take people's noize personally. No I do. I think it's like and it's it's a special form of narcissism with me because it's like how do they they should have known. What should they have known. It's because we're writers and we control our environment so much and what we do.


And that when someone does something that we didn't want, it's like, did you not get the salmon pages? Like I said, you know what I mean?


Well, there's also like I have the thing of like I'm in I'm in an incredibly vulnerable space and you should know that. And you should be you should know, you know, and like, I have a hard time being like, what's going on? Maybe this is narcissistic. I know what's going on with you, that you're not responding to me. Do you know, like, I have these things of like I have a big trigger with people who don't text me back in how much time?


Do they time how much time are they allowed to have? Yes, before you start to feel rejected, which is it abandoned and rejected and I go into shame like I did something wrong. Interesting.


And that is from buying a woman and everything we do is wrong.


Yeah, like, that's this is my current journey is like where is where where does that shame live and why and how do I, like, talk to that person who's like dealing with so much shame all the time because I go there so quickly. Yep. My fault. Emotion is my default. Emotion is embarrassed, embarrassed and ashamed. It's my fault. Yes it's my fault. And I and I deserve it too. Like interesting. But then also like the like how dare you at the same time.


Like I'm like I deserve it.


And also I'm a piece of shit and it's like you see I'm a piece of shit in the center of the universe. Yeah. I'm a piece of shit in the center of the universe. Yeah. And then what.


My Tinder bio. And that's so interesting. And then and then what happens because when you have someone doesn't text me back, I will. And we're fantasy people.


This is but and I think this is so important to get granular with because all of this is what makes you such a great artist as well.


It's what makes you because you are one of the most sensitive people I know.


And that's not and that's saying a lot like Whitney knows. Oh, fucking sensitive as feeble but sensitive is.


And this is why the craft and what we're about to get into with the craft is so important, because women have been taught to believe that their superpowers are weaknesses and they've been mythologized. You're sensitive. You're hyper vigilant. That means you're crazy. That means you're psycho. That means you're annoying. That means you're exhausting all those things. But sensitivity is actually the biological basis for it. It is what helped our species proliferate. We read that alarm system.


We read that there's a line, there's a tiger. What's that rustling in the bushes like sensitivity is like. So you're actually a superhero, like your high anxiety.


People are the most highly resilient people. The ones that would have you would have nailed it two thousand years ago. They would have kept everyone alive. You're just alive at the wrong time. It's just that the world changed, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah.


Perfectly evolved to live in the woods alone just now.


While you're shooting movies like the craft, you know, if you just want to exit now, that answers a lot of questions because your ability to threat detection and anticipate people's needs and question other people's motives, that's what we do all day. You're scanning, scanning, scanning. Yes, I'm scanning. And we've talked about this, too, because, like, you taught me a lot about this, which is like because of like my inner child who's very much still alive, maybe she won't be by the end of today.


But I'm pro choice when it comes to inner child. So, like I.


Yeah, I guess the. Let me trying to say here, like, I guess my my inner child is always on high alert for danger everywhere, and that is like something that like every therapist has always said, why wouldn't you be you're a woman.


I think because of my childhood, because of where I grew up, like Brooklyn in the 80s was a scary place to grow up. And and I think like what every therapist I've ever had has told me to do, which I like intellectually, very much understand but cannot embody. Still, as a 30 year old woman, I mean. Twenty seven, I went in.


I are twenty seven years older than you. Yeah. That's why I'm I thought that like three days I'm three days more sensitive to that.


Like I don't know how to not know, I don't know how to not believe that, that there is danger everywhere, you know. And my reactivity is. Yeah. Is that everything is like a five alarm fire.


And you're not wrong though. The only thing we're wrong about is thinking that, anticipating it, taking up bandwidth, thinking about it is going to prevent it from happening. Do you know what I mean? Right. So it's like that's the only place where we have bad math. So it's like I loved it. I love to call it bad math. It's just helpful.


So it's like Kuhnen, the people that believe Kuhnen, they're right. They just have the wrong facts. So we'd all be kuhnen. They believe they're saving children, right? Correct. That pedophilia is bad. They think they're saving children. There were the same as them. Right. We have everything in common. You just have bad math, you know, types of values. Yeah, right. We say the Democratic Party is not a satanic cult.


Yeah, no. They just have bad they just got the wrong information. Right. They just have fake news. If we thought that we do the same thing, we just don't think that because it's not true. Right. Right. So it's like, you know, we have our our primordial reptile brain says you need to constantly ascertain and scan for this threat over and over again in order to protect yourself, because our brain is only designed for survival.


That's it. Not any of this stuff, not texting or phones are Meiktila didn't even know what this is. Right. So it's like our brain, rightly so, wants us to keep scanning for danger.


It just we haven't evolved yet to a place where we know that the actual now that's an obsolete tool, that scanning for danger is actually the liability now because it's making us anxious and tired and distracted and hurting our relationships and eating away at the collagen in our arteries because we're producing so much cortisol.


Yeah, and a lot of it's like a captive behavior. Yeah. And I think like.


With the craft legacy I like, I was really interested in getting in touch with my inner child because it's a very personal story to me and it's it's a young woman in adolescence like. She moves into a house with with men for the first time, basically, and I think there is that thing that women continue to have to have to navigate, which is like when is when is there when is that danger something that we should listen to? When is our gut something we should listen to when it comes to that danger as women in the world?


Because especially in adolescence, we sometimes before then, you know, tragically for some young women, but in adolescence especially, we start to understand ourselves as prey like us. Right. And so for the first time, we're like we're also sexually coming into our own. So it's like but there's no real space for any sexual agency because immediately we are also in danger. And men that we don't want to give us that attention are suddenly giving us attention.


That feels really uncomfortable. And so, like, I think even just that, like how that carries through our lives as grown as women. It's like, how do you learn to trust in a world where you're.


Initially, when your brain is at such a, you know. An important like stage of growth is a young woman, how do you like shift that perception and should we? Because we still are having to navigate really grey areas all the time. And I'm like, that's why why me too, was such a powerful and continues to be such a powerful movement in that, like suddenly it was like, oh, wait, that wasn't allowed. I thought that was allowed.


I was under I was under the impression that that was love or that that was that was a great date or that that was a great date, you know, or that that was just an any of those things. Right.


That was just our relationship. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, it's because what our age of we normalized it. And so it's like our incredible ability to adapt helped us to cope and normalize all that. You know, it's like I mean, I just went through this with the, you know, people in my field that continue to be exposed for their behavior.


It's like everyone's like did when, you know, it's like, well, not only did I not see a lot of it because they don't show it to me because they wouldn't. But also like the putting your dick out. And, like, I just I had to transmute that and alkalis that into. Oh, it's funny. It's fine. Like, I had to be desensitized to it and especially in the world of comedy.


But I would say in our industry anyway, as an at large, if I stopped and had to like, stand up for myself every time that happened, that's all I would do. That's all I would do. And so to me, it's like the self-preservation was to normalize it, just ignore it, move on. You know, we absolutely.


And it was and you're you're rewarded for being able to hang like the bull.


I'm cool. You're cool guy wings. You can take it.


And that's a survival mechanism. And that's what we had to do to survive. Yeah.


And the conditions are changing, you know, and, um, and we jump around. But the craft, like, it's interesting because it's like watching the version you made which Virgini we're trying to figure out a way to like put words to it, like we'll just cry.


But it was like I'm watching it. I wrote. So this is what I wrote down.


The I felt nostalgic and seen and understood and heard and celebrated this movie is so confident.


These are the notes I wrote on the plane, because this is someone that I when we met, you were doing notes, calls in the chair on a movie that you had directed. I had started, written, produced and started.


I didn't direct it. Daryl directed it. That's right. Sorry, sorry.


Your husband, Daryl, and you're like on the like you had made another movie before that called Breaking Up was still the best title of any movie. We'll get to that at some point.


This movie is like visual marzipan. I wrote that down. It is so velvety.


It's emotional velvet.


Wow. I know. And wild. You can have that for the. But thank you so much. The wardrobe set design is like the past and future all at once.


Modern nostalgia. It's a luscious movie, this is me on a plane, I mean, there is some altitude thrown in here. It's ancient and modern at the same time. Wow. The last note. Wow, wow, Benton is joining in on this conversation because he is how would you describe your relationship to the craft?


I am the it's the only thing that ever mattered in my whole life. So that's not a pressure.


I'm thrilled. What is the question?


I just would like you to talk about your when you first saw the craft, what happened to you? What it did for you?


I mean, for me, I first saw the craft. I was probably on like the. Fifth grade, when I kind of like saw it and understood it, and for me it was a movie that. I mean, I grew up in a really small town. Most of our listeners know, like, really tiny, like I think in Low Boville Tennessee and my fifth grade class, there's probably 11 of us. And I already was like I was a witch to begin with and then seen that movie.


I was like, OK, I understand these people. Like, I can relate to this. And it was the only movie I saw where, like, they were just like weird and cool. Like they didn't care that they were weird. It was like a bad word.


And it wasn't masculine. It wasn't. Which I kind of. Yeah. Getting into that part, like when I saw the movie, I was like, OK, well, this is a bunch of women and I'm always being told, like, my feminine qualities are negative, but these are a bunch of really cool, like badass women. And then when I started to like, look into the craft part of it, I was like, oh, look, masculine and feminine energies exist within this world.


Like, this is a world where, like, everyone has these energies and they're like celebrated. And so I kind of went with that and I was like, OK, well, this is now the world I live in. And I like I mean, I really went with it to the point where, like, I was dressing like that. All the necklaces, like my teachers were spooked.


You were like at the Claires kiosk buying because my mom was not going to class. My mom got me vintage chokers. They were very into it, too. So I had vintage. My mom got me a vintage black like jacket that I wore.


And what is which? Well, you just explain for like people listening, because if I'm listening, I'm going. What is witchcraft exactly? I, I couldn't define it. Whitney Cummings doesn't know what it is.


I mean, I'm not a person which I don't wanna, like, be the spokesperson for that. I'm not asking you to be. But for me, I would say I would assume that everyone kind of has I think that is some that you some people are probably more in tune with it, more innately, like drawn to it or something. But I think it's it's we have a long hidden manifestation of energy.




It's just your energy, you being in power and in power, channeling the power you have that you've kind of like been gas led into believing I kind of thing, which is like the first feminist way.


Like they were they lived in a world where they couldn't own property or land. They had no power. Then all of a sudden they're like, well, then we're going to figure out a way to have power and we're going to have so much with it. It scares you.


And then people were so scared by it, they had to start killing them. And they were also healers and they were like community leaders. They were. Yeah. And that was threatening. Right. Like all of this is just like establishment cannot deal with women who are either, you know, like in power or healing communities. So let us vilify them and drown them and burn them. Yeah.


And it was one of the only it was really interesting to me through growing up reading I like the history of witchcraft and stuff, was that it was one of the only spaces throughout history where like there wasn't this like male female dynamic. It was like the men were also called witches, but they were just as much a part of that that mindset as the women were. And it was like this group of people who were like living as one kind of thought pattern instead of like men, which is that like this women, which they didn't have all that, which is really interesting.




Yeah, absolutely. And there's also like such a there's such a history of goddess worship that's been completely like erased from history books and that I think like institutionalized religion, like definitely wanted to make go bye bye. Yeah. But witchcraft is very much about, no matter, you know, the gender of the practitioner, very much about like getting back in touch with just the divine feminine and how we pay, how we honor that energy both in ourselves and into like a sort of a higher power.


And I think something I just feel the need to say this like matriarch and patriarch, I think tends to trigger people because it's they've become so polluted with, like fake feminism. Who's that? Did someone just come in? Was that. Samona. Hello, that's a ghost. You guys, I think one of the Salem witch hunters is going. Why did my door just open and no one was there?


We're harnessing our fucking everybody needs to that was so inner child who left the building.


Thank you so we couldn't see. God, I feel so much lighter. She's so sure that she is always in her child, just excuse her.


So I'm not sense of it at all. Nobody has to text me back. Ever done.


I just I just fucking cracked your phone in half like me talking to you because I just feel like there's been a little bit of this like, you know, bullshit like McDonald's feminism or whatever it is that we're seeing on Twitter and Instagram that's kind of about like superiority and not equality.


You know, you got a toy. This entitlement, not empowerment, there's a difference. And matriarchy doesn't mean men aren't involved, valued, loved, make benefits. Everybody, you know, it's like I actually say like it's the most alpha male I know. That word means nothing. We talk about this all the time. I know I'm using it wrong, but let's just use the traditional archaic alpha. The most alpha shit you can do is let the women do all the work.


That's what lions do. Lions are a matriarchy. The lion, the male lion sleeps twenty hours a day. The women do the hunting, the women do all the rearing, all the killing. And then the boys wake up to shit and eat and fuck and they go back to sleep. It's not bitch. It's not you're not irrelevant. You're not obsolete. It's you don't lose power. You know, it's like all the metrics of when you hire more women, your company becomes more lucrative.


It's actually the most selfish business for people like you always hire so many women. It's like that. It's selfish. Even beyond that.


The interesting thing about like the craft as like a practice is that masculine and feminine exist in everyone. It's more about the divine. You're not living in a patriarchy. You're living in the divine.


We're not limiting ourselves with the bifurcated like socially constructed by frication of like you have to be this or this or this. It's like take the best of both worlds, the masculine and the masculine feminine live in all of us.


Yeah. And I think, like one thing that I did really want to explore in the film, which speaks to something that you were just talking about, is like when you talk about the patriarchy, like the patriarchy and toxic masculinity, those things are hurting men. That that's that's it. And I think that is the thing that people. That's right. That that people who like, you know, are triggered by those terms, especially men who are triggered by those terms because they feel attacked immediately by them.


I think like the thing that's always missing and this is true of any, like social justice movement of like also for white people dealing with, you know, like the ways in which we oppress and how we can serve as allies. Like if you understand the ways in which that oppressive system is actually causing you harm, then your ally shape is as an outsider.


So it's like it's like what it's you know, and I think the pandemic and David Oyelowo. Oh, and I talked about this when he was here. I know how to pronounce his name. That was just that was just the one time I needed to take a breath was during his name is the pandemic made us realize that we're all connected. So it's like, you know, being whatever institutionalized racism to all that is like if someone's poor, we're all poor.


Yeah. If someone's sick, we're all sick. Yeah. So helping other people actually is selfish and benefits you. You know, you're hurt by that. Yes. And and I think men feeling and we talked about this a little bit before the podcast, but like men feeling that they that that embracing their divine feminine is shameful, is hurtful, is hurtful to men.


Can I tell them so much masculinity is something you can hide behind. But I don't. But I don't have to hide anymore. Right. Then why do I become.


But toxic masculinity is a very like like it means something different to everyone. I mean something different everyone.


Like I don't love that term because it's a little different triggered. It's too buzzy. You're boring. But here's here's how I'll put it.


The number, how many boys have been molested in the Catholic Church, it's literally like almost no one cares. No one talks about it, no one covers it. It's too awkward to even talk about, like men or sexually like no one.


That's a great example of talking about. Yeah, covering it, because it's we saw that to happen. Yes.


But I think toxic masculinity, like has been sort of advertisers used it for razors or something. So it just got a little pop, it got a little mainstream pop and like a boulder sized or something, but like no. So it's like men get hurt and no one cares, you know, because of all of this.


So it's like, well, but I think like I think that men get hurt and people care like in different ways.


Like I think that women and women of color get hurt and nobody fucking cares in that way. And now there's a moment where finally people are caring and there's a huge amount of backlash. Yeah, because how dare any of these people who should know their place? Well, people don't like things actually stand up and try to shift a really oppressive system that we're all living under and can't even see half the time. So like I do think I think the way that men are are hurting.


Yes, there is sexual abuse that is like, well, because I think her vehicle hurt people, hurt people.


So you get hurt. And the only solution to that hurt because you had no power when you were hurt is to now subjugate other people are subjugated. So when we're creating these invisible wounds up till the age of five, these wounded people grow up to be very dangerous. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.


You ever had Mad Dog 20/20? No, it's it's like a real hillbilly one. It's like real rough. That sounds amazing.


It's not trust me, when I was little, I was like, there's some on my dad's shelf. And I was like, what is that? What I kept asking you? They drink it. I threw it for a very long time.


Well, that's because you didn't take the Bridezillas quiz. I showed it to them as a child. You're right. I should I should have.


But here's my deal with wine. Bridezillas is a subscription service that helps you find wines he'll love that you love.


And I am not a wine person. And this made me a wine person.


Well, you're not a wine person because you didn't know what wines you liked. Because I had known I would. You know, I want wine to taste like finding a needle in a needle stack.


I want wine to taste like a spicy juice. And like this, they gave that to me. You take a quiz, you go on there, you take it to seven question quiz.


They tell you what you like because you don't know what you like. It's impossible to know. They go on a small date with taste buds work. You go on a small date with them, answer a couple of questions asked in wine.


And Tim was giving me the bright wine quiz this morning. And I had a shift because I learned so much about myself, asked me a couple of those questions and we both took this quiz.


It's really simple. What's one type of chocolate you do for the rest of your life?


Dark chocolate milk, chocolate, white chocolate milk, chocolate I'd eat for the rest of my life.


What are you reading the question now that you're bringing up the fact that I've dated black guys, Reese's Cups. Snickers Or where's the fruity candy?


Bruces. They're going to tell me what wine I'm going to like based on the answer to that. These are those maple leaf questions. What how do you like your tea? Iced and sweet iced, no sugar hot with sugar. Arnold Palmer brewed strong. No t t t bagged.


So I'm that's not an option. Arnold Palmer bag. I want him to tieback.


What's your go to drink. Margarita beer. Martini, dry whiskey. Scotch, mimosa. Lou, why Martinez no, Marguerita.


As your trashy, because I'm sure what's your favorite earth, so we did this quiz and then they pick they send you wines that you're going to like based on that quiz.


Here's the most important part of this, by the way. These are also questions you should ask people on the first date.


This is the most important part of that quiz, is that at the end of it, they ask you, how adventurous are you? And if you only want to try white wines, only red wines, if you want to mix, if you want mostly red, mostly. Why that's important because I mostly wine and white wines and I try to just some red.


They take the hassle out of shopping for wines also. Give me those. But those cards, these are really important.


Oh they send you little cards and they have, they tell you what temperature to put the wine in your flight to chill out. They tell you all the flavor notes in there, they tell you what it pairs.


Best words I could tell you cares best at toljan.


It tells you where it gets nailed it what region it's from, they tell you and then you get to rate it in this company.


You get to rate it on here. These Osas, which I do.


They said my favorite part of wine is the label.


And they know that I love cricket when I'm bombing, when my jokes are bombing the ball like it was crickets on it.


But you fill out the card and then the next time you go in to order, you give them the results back from the wines you chose.


I mean, is that just this wine bottle they sent me is just me. Oh, mine, huh? That's yours. Happy medium. I think I should have that one.


But this is really important. You keep going over it. So you thought this little card out, you check the stars when you go back to get your next box, you tell them how much you like these and they even that one's really good. I had that one.


They narrowed it down even more. So every box gets more and more specific to what you're going to love.


You guys, it happened. I'm holding a bottle of white wine. I've turned it on my mother for good for you listeners only. We are giving you fifty percent off your first six bottle orders from bright sellers by going to bright orange dot com slash. Good for you. That's bright sellers see a slash. Good for you. You can take their seven question quiz and their wine matches and receive fifty percent off your first six bottle order.


It's so wild to me the number of people I know that are haunted by student loans and how they are shackled by just it's like what's the thing that followed them around?


And Christmas, the ghost of Christmas past with the chains. That's what it makes me. Imagine your student loans are following you. They are.


I dated a guy who used me gold digged me to help him pay his student loans that an entrepreneur he we dated for a little while.


He would come home at four in the morning because he was working as a caterer and you know how much I value my sleep. And he'd come home at four in the morning and wake me up. And I was like, I don't think this is going to work because you're interrupting my sleep. And he was like, well, I'm doing this to pay my student loans.


And I was like, OK, can I help you? Emasculated him and asked that, but he said yes, which is a testament to how desperate people who owe money to colleges feel. And I was like, OK, let me just pay your student loans this month. It was like thirty five hundred dollars.


That's cheap. They're low. I mean, you take out like it's like 30, you can take out like thirty thousand or more per semester and then you think you're like, I'll pay all this back at my job.


I get after college criminal. I've never thought about this before. And you have to use the money to live off of it. You have to use that money to use your school loan money to pay the interest back off on the school loan you have while you're in school.


Still, do you have an elegant Segway into how this is about Earnest Earnest?


I'm I'm so glad this company exists because I don't know what people were doing before. Earnest, they help you figure out how in the Sam hell to pay off your student loans.


Yeah, before earnings. It's a Rubik's cube of a nightmare before.


And if you were just dodging phone calls and waiting for way to win the lottery, you're just getting stalked by debt collectors and posting your only fans.


Earnest is the easiest way to refinance your student loan, saving you time and money.


You can even check your rate. You complete a few questions online. It takes like two minutes. Calm down. Well, depending on your Wi-Fi connection, it should take about two minutes.


You'll get a personalized rate estimate without affecting your credit score are important because your credit scores are already affected by the loan.


Once I didn't know that. When you check things like that, it affect your credit score. Not with Earnest. You can even combine private and federal loans.


You would have one single monthly payment.


The fact that they don't already do that is crazy. It is crazy. You're the Ernestas bringing sanity and the very insane nightmare.


If you've already refinanced, that's totally fine, you can still be eligible to lower your interest rate again. Hey, our listeners are going to get a one hundred dollar cash bonus when you refinance a student loan in earnest. Dotcom, Whitney, that's a hundred dollars hundred dollars.


That's not a joke. Cash bonus when you refinance a student loan at Earnest's Dotcom.


Whitney, go to Ernest Dotcom slash Whitney today. Terms and conditions apply.


The boxes that men feel they have to be confined within are so limiting that they limit I mean, they limit it emotionally so much that there isn't space for vulnerability.


Remember, like we were kind of talking about for, like, the original craft, something when you watch it because of the time period it came out. And it was also very limited roles that women could play that you wanted to relate to that movie like like like as an LGBTQ person or as a many types of people. You had to search for yourself in that movie and in the retelling that you did, there's no searching. There's you are in that movie.


If you exist, you're in that movie somewhere, you'll see the original and you don't have to work so much. There's no there's not so much figuring it out. Like, I know that I'm in that movie and I can watch it and gain from it as opposed to having to create that XYZ guys from I assume the original craft had actresses that looked different than the actresses we had seen.


Mm hmm. It was one of the only movies that touched on suicide and rape and racism at the time. Yeah, it was very one of the storylines is literally a racism, the whole story. Yeah.


Right. Yeah. And then so what happened when you sign for me?


Well I mean, for me it was really cool because, you know, I have my my mom's and my family is there mixed. So I saw people that looked like, like, like Rochelle in the movie. And so it was really interesting to me to see that then I had something to play with my cousins, you know? And then what do you mean you were able to watch the movie?


Able to watch? Yeah, well, we were to watch it. But then as kids, we were to like play, which is together now.


There was no other movie that they had that show that your black relatives all of a sudden now you had something you could do together for that. And then also for me, like I had never experienced someone being mean to me in that way, the way that she was being picked on in that movie. And I was like, because to me, like, I saw them all getting, like, hot and ran through their hair and getting their hair braided.


So, like, that wasn't weird to me. Yeah. And to see that it was weird in this movie, I was like, I don't understand what what's what's the hair thing. So my mom had to explain to me, like, well, here's why she's being bullied in this movie for her. Like, I didn't get that as a kid.


I'm going to tell me. And it was the first time I saw that. And then to see someone, you know, like and then there was, you know, and then you had Bonnie who had scars and stuff. And like, my dad is handicapped. So seeing a character who was like who was, you know, had an affliction that was like physical was really interesting to me. I never really related to Sarah, but I really relate to Nancy as a person who wasn't like she grew up in like a trailer park.


That's what I was surrounded by with trailer parks. And I was like, that's what I felt like. I felt like Nancy watching that movie, which is part of the best take. But I think the movie is that everything. But like, that's what I feel. I was like, oh, look at this person who is like weird and different. It does not care, doesn't care like that. And I built a friend group, like gave you permission to build a fringe group that was like diverse.


I think that movie did. I mean, I was like, oh, I can have friends that are all kinds of I mean, I did take a little too far because I am in my head. I was living in the movie.


So like when people come to my school, like in eighth grade, I mean, I carry this movie all throughout life. In eighth grade, we had a new. Yeah, no shit. Who is my friend? She's still my friend. And stay Kayla and she shut up. And the first thing I said to her, are you one of us. Yeah. Like a psycho. Like a psycho. Like the opening scene. I was like prepared to see, like, people chanting with candles.


And you did it in a way where it was like, these are kids that live right now. They're living in today's world. That's have the Internet. They found this on the Internet. They didn't go to a store. That's right. They're like fumbling around, having a good time like they were know the perfect amount of Mr. Alja.


But also, sure, I got to connect to a movie but see a new story. And that's what I want out of like a retelling. I want to experience something new. And I thought you did that in a way where not only can I have to look for myself in the movie, I have to search for a character that what is this character like me? It's every character is there. There's I mean, you have trans characters. You have people who are coming out.


You have moms, dads, masculine figures, feminine figures.


You have folks. Can I get into the genius of the choices like Michelle Monaghan, mostly known for a movie called Maid of Honor, which I was in. I played her bridesmaid and maid of honor, nominated for a few Oscars.


Right. Razzie? Oh, yeah.


I get those two things honestly. Same depth and true, detective.


I mean, she's just mission impossible. She was incredible.


She's like, talk about a woman who like, first of all, she's the most like down to for whatever person in the coolest way that is everything that is that I am not like she likes a hundred.


She is just like she's just a scream like a bitch. Yeah. She's scrappy, she's cool. She eats like a trucker. She goes to burning. Oh no. She would like we could get wasted on. I don't. Well I didn't, I was full Virgo like we would doing the movie Maid of Honor.


She's starring in a movie like Doing Shots at midnight before a five a.m. call.


She is everything I wish I could be. Yes. And they.


And also on top of that, the most gracious, generous, classy, loving, meticulous present and the way that she has not only supported this film, but supported me and the young woman in this film, like every Wednesday, she does A Woman Crush Wednesday and showcases one of the covid members, like on her Instagram, just like she's just beautiful and giving. She is a real one. I love her so much.


And then the casting of the girls, I mean, it was I guess I just it's very rare that I watch a movie and I'm like, I'm hooked.


Like, I'm usually just watching a movie. And, you know, I say a lot. The reason comedians are so depressed is we lost the ability to watch comedy. The one thing values to another. All we're doing is watching going. I wish I thought of that. Yeah. Why does he have it? And I don't why does she have it. And I don't like we can't enjoy comedy. It's hard to enjoy movies because all I'm doing is going.


I auditioned for that. I didn't get that. I wish I'd gotten that. I don't buy it. That's ADR inner monologue being like OK, I like that was a reshoot like continuity issue. That's all you're thinking, right? Virgo.


And this was like I was and I know you. I like I know you. We I saw you after the movie wrapped.


We got our nails done like I knew it was a movie more than kind of any movie I've ever seen. I knew it was a movie and I was still able to surrender. My brain was still able to surrender with it.


I knew none of that and didn't know you. I surrendered to it. And that was a much tougher critic than Whitney Wise, I will say.


Like like I like even down to it. I was like, yes, you're going to copy their clothes from the nineties. And then you did these little touches of like plaid pants instead of like schoolgirl uniforms.


And you like, oh, don't get me started on the copper. I do like a funeral weaved in these like quotes from the original movie that you would had to be a Die fan of to even know that was from the original movie. And they were in these places where you were like like I would catch them and I'd be like, look at that. And it was such like a respectful way to pay homage to something without showing the same story that I was like, Oh, I'm totally on board with this for you to put in these little tiny moments.


I was like, so impressive to me. I was like, oh, wow. Like and not only that, but the detail.


And you could tell that you like research, witchcraft and stuff down to like using bodily fluids and the period and all these moments always.


And it's interesting because this made me have a flashback to, you know, I used to be incredibly, like jealous of you.


That's not true. It is because Zoe has many things I don't have.


But you have a knack is so in such an insulting way to phrase it. But you're.


Aesthetic, your fashion sense, do you remember the time that I used to buy clothes just because I thought you'd wear them? I showed up one time on the set of Whitney in a beige leather coat with zippers, and she and I love that.


And I went I bought it because I could like it. You were like, you know, you literally look like you little. It was just like this single white female moment. You're like, I love that. I was like, I know. That's why I bought it. So for a long time, like when I used to care about clothes, I would just when I thought that was going to fix the invisible wounds shopping, I would buy it, doesn't it?


It doesn't work. Plot twist.


I love how you're seeing this interview and this movie through the lens of knowing her. And I'm seeing it through some.


I know, but your relationship to the original movie is my relationship to her. So you have the inverse relationship. It's wild. Yeah. So that movie is Zoey to you and so is the craft to me.


So but you're it's because I always say the most important person on movie in a way is the costume designer, because the first thing you see over anything else, you it's it's different to me because it's like the the costume designer, the writer. And it's like you're the costume designers are writers.


I mean, they decide what one is about the clothes, they decide the impact.


The first thing you see the first visual of tells the story of this person. The shirt tells the story, the makeup tells a story. So they're writers. And your acumen for costume is so.


Potent, I mean, even thank you, super granular, did the costume designer hate, you know, and I have to give her a shout out. Sorry to interrupt you, but her name is Avery Lewis and she is brilliant. And the collaboration was such a dream, which it could have gone terribly wrong. But then I want to talk to you got me.


Because now I want to talk about your interviewing process of how you hire people, because when you're directing a movie and it's your vision, you need people that can anticipate your needs, not take direct action as criticism.


Right. And I want to talk about your experience as being a young, beautiful female boss and what happens and how you hire people because you were taking on a lot.


I mean, we're having to go you were having to like you have to fire reimagine. Yeah.


So what happened? And a story that is like burning into.


Let's talk about that, a.D.A now. Let's get away from the lotting and let's hope I love the lotting part. I like to sit here for a little bit a little bit longer.


What else do you like about it? A failure.


So how do you fire people? I couldn't do it. Well, I don't think I've ever fired someone.


I just keep them on because I was too afraid of the discomfort. Well, I'm deeply co-dependent and also which co-dependent on this show we define as the inability to tolerate the discomfort of others.


That's. Yeah, exactly right.


And also which is interesting, the irony of that is that when one person is a rotten apple, the other, if there's two hundred people in the group, the other one hundred and ninety nine people are uncomfortable. So we can't we tolerate that discomfort and our discomfort, not the person who's the problem. Absolutely.


And on a film set it is or TV set it is.


I like always talk about the beauty of it is that you have a huge group of people operating as one living organism, like in terms of anticipating needs and everyone coming every job in some way, whether you work with them or whether whatever, your job is the same.


So you just like to frame that, because I think a lot of times people talk about the movie business in Hollywood as if it's so different from every other business. But it's just so it's no every business is about the collective like and if that collective is running smoothly, then your business is running smoothly.


But it's ultimately we're all five years old and running around with the echoes and fears. And when you're the boss, you're everyone's you have the negative qualities of everyone's primary caretaker. So your mama. Dada. Yeah. So people just pended you.


Yes. So that is difficult. I think like part of the hiring process for me is I like to meet as many people as I can in person, like even down the line just because like just to get a sense of people's energies, because like you said, if there's one rotten apple that is going to impact the Internet, let me ask you what I think.


What I learned was it's not about their energy. It's about your energy. When you're with them, do you feel pressure to perform? Do you feel pressure to compliment them? Do you feel pressure to be unctuous? Like I find like when you walked in the room when I first met you, when you auditioned for the show, it was like, I have to do nothing. Right. Yeah. And that's how you really I don't know.


How are you? So it was like every other actress that came in for your part job.


It was like, hi, how are you? So great. Anyway, so we're going to read the same direction. It was like you came in and I had to do nothing. Yes, because we're so that way. Energy. Yeah, that that's the right fit. Yes. So I made the mistake the first season of the show we worked on second season pretty much. I made this mistake. A lot of someone comes in and I go, how am I going to love you?


And I shift because I know how to do that.


I grew up walking on eggshells around our just so I know how to shape shift at to make us have good chemistry.


And I do all the work and then I go, oh, we had such good chemistry and then I hire them but I'm doing all the work.


Yes, yes.


If my life of allowing myself to do nothing and vibrate the right person, it's not about romantic relations leaning out, leaning out.


So my next book will be laying out the opposite of Lean In, Lean Out, let everyone else lean in and make fools of themselves embarrass themselves where you just limbo your way past problems.


You're going to lean out, collect information. That's right. And then I'm going to go in with the mike jobs at the ass, right?


Yeah. You're going to pop up like clowns out of a box with the answer.


No, you're going to be like one of the those things at a car dealership, the balloons that come on and back down, they just say with cancer, give me the back.


Because if you speak first, you're giving away all your power, right, true power doesn't have to advertise itself.


And I think that does that sort of like is your you just answered your own question in terms of what I try to do is like. So I don't need you so much. It's been fun back and forth.


Her dream liberal dream interview herself answers your own course on the topic of power, because this is something in the movie that I notice is how conscious was it for you to put these the witches, the girls, the women in this movie in a situation where they are very aware of having power and just needing to figure out a way to channel it, as opposed to the original one where it was like this group of girls who are like, oh my gosh, we have powers.


And then they're almost acting like a dick to them. And they're like, how how are we going to use them? Your girls seem to live in a world where it's 20, 20. We have the Internet. We know that we're strong. But now how are we going to use this power was like a conscious choice.


Yeah, I think it was. I mean, I, I, I knew that from the jump.


I wanted this to be a story of young women whose power didn't overwhelm them to the point of disabling. And I think like that's been the narrative that so many of us have witnessed in popular culture.


When young women get power, especially young, which is that it, then they they become out of control.


The YES-MAN name a girl out of control, and then they'll turn around each other.


And this for me, was such an amazing opportunity to tell a different story, which is that these are young women who understand their powers, who who embody their powers and that power. I think the bigger lesson is that that power is at its greatest height when they are in community rather than in, you know, rather than individual.


That's the thing right now. What I want to talk about. No, but I want to talk about this because to me, I was conditioned to compete with women. I was conditioned to believe that another woman, women woman winning means I lose. Yeah. If she succeeds, I there's only one seat. There's one seat at the table. And there was for so long. And the scarcity complex of if there's one other female comic on the line, it's me or her, it's me or you.


You're my nemesis.


We know you want to thin into the camera.


I'm saying I didn't. And I think women like I don't think we've caught up on this yet, like, I think.


But you did. That's what I'm saying. These girls new growth now.


No, I think this next generation knows because they saw it's like who was how we fucked up.


That was so smart. I was so clever. No, we didn't know what I know now be coped. We did what we had to do to get by. You did the best we can with the tools and the circumstances we had. But I think it's like who was it that said, I'm plagiarizing somebody? I got it. Annie Latterman boys will be boys, but girls will be girls. So that's what happened with me too. It's like, yeah, we're going to talk like, you know what I mean?


You know how we're gossiping and we talk and we compare notes like girls will be girls. You forgot that. So is like I think women are like, oh, we are. We don't have we're not against each other or whether we're more powerful together. And it's taken me. I mean, it's really taken me.


That I mean, in the last year is really the really when I sort of like was able to. Not see the success of other women as a threat to me, but if you give yourself our credit because you like, as we as we talk about the beginning of this podcast, I mean, in a primal way, in a primal way, I totally like you also have to see the incredibly supportive you see I have because that's consciously who I am.


But I'm talking about maybe like the split second reaction of when I see that another woman has gotten something that I want, that when your heart takes a shit in your chest, that little partner. Yeah, but that's really cool. It's a it's a primordial reaction.


It's a it's say I'm not going to eat. It's a you think, you know, I don't have the protection of the tribe above to think that though. I know that I'm saying by I think it's biology. I think it's also but it's it's taken along to your brains. We need a lot of proof. My brain needs a lot of proof. And she's shining. And I'm not I'm not shining because I think that's the other thing is that, like, I need to shine and be the addict brain and the of the constitutional need to be special.


If she's special, I can't be special.


I mean, it's it's really it's really it's really fucking deep.


It's really deep and it's not and it's really hard to avoid because of the conditioning. But I will say that like in my life and I think probably similar in yours, although you've had some complicated relationships in that arena, but like seeing the gifts that other women can give as mentors or even just as support systems is like such a great it just like it does require a little bit where you're like that just uplifted me and nourished me in such a deep way.


I want to also do that. But it doesn't change that first instinct of like there's only room for one.


Yeah. Which is so fucked up. And it's also not you know, it's interesting because it's like I know this is like a hot take, but it's not like all women, you know, like I had this really tricky conversation with a younger female comic who was like, I can't believe there's not more female comedians on the main room lineup.


And I was like, who? And it was like, OK, well, Ali Wong and and they're all selling out theaters. They're busy. That's why they're not here. They're not here because they're rich and successful. I mean, they're all touring. So that's not a conspiracy. That's not a sexist conspiracy. They're off being rich and talented. And Ali was like making her movie or whatever. And then there was, well, this girl, this girl and this girl.


But they've only been doing this for two years. Right. So they don't deserve to be here. They don't get in a spot they don't deserve because they're women. So that's a quality is the same everything. You know, it's like granted there was like, you know, we didn't get the head start. But it's like that to me, like I was put in the situation and they're like, well, you need to fight for these women to get this spot on the line.


I'm like, I'm not going to fight for them to get something that they don't deserve yet. That's not kind to them.


Right. And you had to pay your dues. And so, you know, and I think I guess the question in comedy, because it's like a fight for them, for the chance to pay their dues.


That's correct. And that's what you do, because I went if this the worst thing I can do for this girl is get her a spot before she's ready and now women are going to serve her. Yeah, women aren't funny now. Yeah, I was seen too soon. I got I got too much exposure before I was ready. Everything happens is, as I said, it's fine, but I kind of got something that I didn't deserve in the beginning.


Like my first late nights out, like last call with Carson Daly, I'd been doing stand for like five months and they needed a woman. They literally just needed a woman. And I wasn't ready yet. I mean, it was last call the Carson Daly, so I was probably too funny for them.


But like, you know, and, you know, I think it's just till recently that female director, female comedian one doesn't represent all like I think true equality is like this. What we're talking about with David Oyelowo is like the freedom to be bad at something and not set back everyone.


Yeah, that was such a great interview. Yeah.


Like, I like the freedom to be mediocre. And I think that as women especially, I think everyone is plagued by this. But I think as women and and people of color and anyone who there are barriers to entry, you know, LGBTQ community, mass community or man other than men.


Yes. Anywhere that there's barriers to entry, there is such a. I guess there's like we are there's a need to prove ourselves so that we won't actually try something until we know we're perfect at it, which I know is sort of contradictory to what you're saying. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. That act as if. No, I'm all that hypocrite because also act as if that there is something to like.


I had never I had never directed a studio film. I had never directed a film that required VFX, that required stunts, that required special effects. Like there were many reasons why I could have said I'm not ready. But I was also like, I am ready.


Like, you already have the power and you just needed to come and. Yes, that's what I need. But that is part of what happened to me. But I will say and that's no, no. What you can figure out later, because in movies you can fit, you can go. I'll figure this out. I'll and you know, and knowing how to ask for help. And that is part of it, too, which is that I stand up, you have one shot and it's less and I think for for women, especially in our industry, when you are, as you know, directing or running a show or anything, there are so many.


It's really hard to allow yourself to ask for help because you want everyone to really believe that you deserve to be there and that you can do it and that you can do everything yourself. And I gave myself permission to to be like, what does that mean?


You know, because there's a lot of things like in the VFX world I'd like sorry, what does that term mean? And it was so hard for me, especially as a Virgo and as a perfectionist, to ask those questions, which is so ironic because ironic.


It's I know it's like the happiest word and I'm probably misusing it, but that's fine. Alanis Morissette is featured.


I feel like it's appropriate to say I a real.


It's it's so odd that we're afraid to ask a question about what something is, because the only people I trust are the ones that admit they don't know something. Yes.


As soon as someone says, I don't know what this means, I go, oh, now I can trust. When you say you do know what I mean?


When someone knows everything, I assume they know nothing. Yeah. And that is part of the smartest people ask questions, questions. And and that is part of I think like running back to the question that I said that you answered.


I'm going to answer and I'm going to do it better. And I said, no, no. Now you're doing pickups. You're doing. Yeah. Can we run that one? And actually, I need to type a couple of things that you can actually talk in this interview.


No. Good. I'll go. No, no, no.


I was just going say that, like, I think part of like what I learned in watching directors that I really respect is that it is such a like, um, it is about the collective so much.


Right. It is about it's about creating space and holding space for the people that you've trusted with your vision to actually have their own visions to like if you are so narrowly focused on it's just like mine, mine, mine, mine.


Why did you hire me if you don't want my ideas? Absolutely. And I was the best person. And that's wonderful. Yeah. And that's when it creates resentment and that's when those relationships go awry.


It's not I'm hiring you to be a puppet and I'm the marionette to know if you're not hiring someone for there. If you're micromanaging someone, you hired the wrong person. Well, you do your joke about good hire.


Oh, yeah. It's such good jobs. They just hire whoever will come in.


They can open their locker and you're like, good hire, good hire because that's our new merch is so high functioning like imagining you at working at Sephora or or Aeropostale.


I was a monster. American Eagle. American Eagle. Everyone is almost always wrong. I was.


What's wrong with everyone is so really my favorite. I don't think we've told the story on the bad guys were people. The way that women steal from Sephora is that they oh all people, not just women died.


I'm sorry, I'm sexist.


The way that they steal lipstick from Sephora is that they they will twist up the texture, lipstick, bite it off and hold it in their mouth and walk out. Yeah. Or like around holiday when everything's just put the hold.


That's the original super spreader. Banten face that way. More maybe out maybe. Oh just brilliant. I know, but I need to be engaged. I need. And then also the way a woman bought Lemaire and then Ritmo. Oh my God.


She bought Mac Mac studio cream. It's a really heavy, heavy, thick moisturizer. She would come back and return them full of mayonnaise.


And one day we had like this like kick ass manager. Her name is Sia. She's awesome black and she's a great artist. And she she snatched that arrangement. This is mayonnaise and handed it back to her.


Just she new new man. This is mayonnaise.


It's like folklore around. People are wild zing.


Mayonnaise, though probably wouldn't be bad for the skin, but you could smell it. I mean, is that like a plumping? It just seems gross.


OK, you're probably right.


But I just love I love your energy with a bunch of incompetent people. It's so funny to me.


I'm always working for you, but you have to hire who will take the job.


What happens when you what happened when you when your talent thought you were which they held a town hall meeting.


They invited my parents to and I had to sit in the car because I was spooky.


Why were you why did your town think you were a witch?


Because I was I mean, they weren't wrong. I was doing everything in my power to make you think that, because then when I watched the movie, I was like, oh, this is how you get people to leave you alone.


You just spoke them and then it was too good. I started giving out books to other kids. Their parents did not like it. What kind of book? Witchcraft books.


I was like, You want to read this book? Want to spell out we started the group is it's a group thing. I need friends and they didn't like it and they had to have a meeting about it. And they just have all of our meetings at Town Hall because it's such a small town. It's like that's just where you go. It sounds very dramatic. Yeah, but I mean, that was where it was. My parents went and they got into a lot of stuff.


I was told he dresses in all black, all very trendy nowadays. My. Ahead of your time, yeah, so who held the town hall meeting? Two teachers and a mayor. The mayor has to be there to open it. Has the mayor got involved?


That's how spooky, because that's what they well, they all went to the same church.


My town is just churches in Harrisburg.


And then you sat in the church attendance lines and we have a sonic now a couple of miles away.


So both places of worship.


And we would just driving around the side, that's like a like an altar.


Yeah. So so where where were you during the meeting?


I just sat in the truck, which sounds a little rude, and then everybody else would go in there, but I couldn't.


I think they thought it was like it felt like they were scared, but it seemed like what I think they didn't want the kid to hear as I wouldn't know what we were at the meeting. Like my parents, we're going get in the car.


But can you maybe, I don't know, eat lunch, maybe lunch with the youth pastor for a month and a half at a public school finances?


I would sit there and he would tell me, why am I? Marilyn Manson sure was evil. Why he would tell me how the Osborn's were evil. Me and my mom loved the TV show The Ausborn. People watch it.


Religion did you. And they weren't into it. And mostly it was a lot of that. They sang a lot to me on a guitar. They would play an acoustic guitar.


So they were trying to convert you back to a human form, which I don't know.


I guess they thought that I was spooky and kooky, but I was just I mean, I was like, OK, what my parents were really my opinions get back in the car they were going to with you. And then they went, just be nice to him. That's all they told me I was buying. You choke my mom and my dad.


My dad is so full into it. He was like he was like, what book should we get next?


What do you want to read now? That's amazing. My name is like it's history. I mean, I was like, that's all history. He was like all that stuff. People believe that stuff. It's one point in time. He was like, might as well read about it, figure out why. And then my mom was just any, any excuse. My mom could put me in a costume she was all down for.


Is there something making you less happy in life, is there something preventing you from achieving your goals? Don't say yourself is there's something really messing up your day.


Do you cry a whole lot? Crying is healthy.


You know, I learned that therapy. Crying is like is releasing I used to think my therapist explained to me like crying is releasing old pain. Does it mean you failed? It doesn't mean you're a bad person. It's information.


And she also explained to me that because men are so bad at reading faces that women evolved to cry when they were in pain so that men would know they were in pain.


We heard no, while I cry and use the tears to wash my face. Yeah, I just rehydrate myself, I just did a little dollop of face wash. I cry a lot. Rub it in.


I just think the key to sanity I mean, you've noticed I've I've hit a new gear in the last week.


You have all my the therapy I've been doing for the past 10 years has just like clicked. Everything clicked. John, I'm saying all the work you do on yourself pays off, it might not pay off right this second, all your puzzle pieces fell into place.


They really did see the whole picture. So I've been going therapy for so long and I never knew if it was working.


Do you know I mean, like, I never knew.


It's not like you go to therapy once and it's over. That's not how it works. Like, why do people keep believing?


And it all kind of starts to crystallize over time. And then as your outlook gets more positive and as you start like.


Sort of seeing yourself differently, you start seeing the world differently, and then everything just starts to get better help, better help.


Well, that's motivational.


I feel lucky that we are alive at a time where we can have therapy online. How lucky we.


That's pretty cool. I mean, better hope can help you start communicating under forty 48 hours, although it's not a crisis line, it's not self-help. It's a professional counseling done early on online.


That's important because my therapist for the longest time told me that she wouldn't take insurance because she didn't want my insurance company to know that I had mental health problems.


You don't want that. Don't make your insurance go up. Or what if that data is available later at some point? Yeah, I mean, and how would people ever know what you having a podcast talking about it all? Thank God she didn't take that payment.


Would it be terrible if I wrote a book about this and saved money, you get a log in here, he found it. So I just wrote a book about it. She's like you.


You go on stage every night and talk about your mental issues. I don't want to take that insurance.


You can pay full price because I went to therapy, I was able to manifest you abandon. Benton is a product of my therapy.


This holds almost exactly rubbed a lamp. And all of my success is because I went to therapy and got out of my own way. And you guys can go to get out of your own way with better help. It's committed to facilitating great therapeutic matches. They make it easy and free to change counselors if needed. It's more affordable than traditional offline counseling because you're not paying for the office of the therapist. You're not paying for something.


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Woop woop.


I'm going to resist the urge to sing woop. There it is. I'm going to resign. Or am I? Call that a woop woop.


There goes. You know that. Do you know that song. Yes, of course I do. Really. I had middle school dances. So you guys know Woop.


Joe Rogan talks about it all the time. I wore my band on Joe Rogan and he didn't notice I was. I wore it because I wanted to impress him.


You were just sitting with this guy and I was home. I was literally like, do you like me? Elite athletes?


Look at me. I'm an elite performer.


I literally wore my band on Joe Rogan to try to get his followers to like me more high.


And it actually worked. I got the least negative comments on my last Joe Rogan appearance when I had a O'Bannon. I feel like that's why they thought you were a dead lifter.


They were like, oh, she gets it. I wore mine when we were performing and I was stunned that my heart rate really it told you your heart rate when you were performing on stage.


You wear it all the time. So it tells you all the time. And I know. But when I got off, it was like it was like you exercise it thought I was exercising. I had to go in the journal entry and it was an exercise.


That's how hard you work on stage and you're performing. That's fascinating because we were having a conversation about, well, we can read the copy. You guys can Google what woop as you know what it is, I don't want to bore you with the copy, but I had an epiphany this morning about wearing the wool band because what it does is it basically tells you how you're sleeping, what you're this is what I'm focusing on, the quality of your sleep.


And it made me realize that I have a false narrative about myself and that I have like, man, I have written a story about myself that's not true and cast myself in a role that is now obsolete.


And that's and it helped me delete a story about myself that's no longer serving me, because my whole thing about myself is I don't sleep enough.


I'm always tired. I didn't get enough sleep. I can't sleep. I can't fall asleep.


That's my whole thing about myself.


But I nap. I go to bed early. I looked at the weapon and it gives you a score.


No proof. I love proof. You know, I love proof. Tells you when you're awake.


I love true science. I woke up and it said you had 100 percent sleep quality. And it told me how like how much REM sleep I got, how much sleep and I know when you're sleeping and it made me realize that my perception of myself is wrong.


And that I have bad PR about myself, this is a powerful thing, Banten I had a similar experience because I'm like it blew my mind. And then I went, oh, and it made me have more energy because I stopped living in this fictitious world of, like, I can't sleep. I'm always tired.


No, I'm not. The Wubin told me that I'm not tired. Haven't you? I've so much more energy now, it's like the band is your God, it kind kind of it's been like a wild shift.


I had a similar experience because I always feel like I'm not doing anything. I really am never burning calories. And the weapon is like, but yes, you are. So it's you said at this point I was like, oh, if I take the stairs, that did make a difference.


It's like a friend and a coach and a scientist and a cheerleader. Yes.


All the and a trainer all in one place and internal and external like it's just it's just so fat.


And then we just have it right here on our wrists. It tells you everything.


You wear it all the time. It's waterproof, you never take it off. And the charger you put the charger on and where the charger until you're done with it, it never comes off your body.


It's truly magic, right? It's magical. Yeah.


It's it's a no, it's like you can't not have it. It's the truth. And you can have it solves so many of my problems. I don't spend the whole day wondering how I slept also with my workout so much I workout and you know, you're leave.


You're like, I don't know if that was a good workout. I'm not sure. And then you spend all this mental energy. I mean, like, was that a go to work on the weapons?


Like it wasn't the Wubin. We'll just tell you straight effects. The weapon is like I've just I feel like it's like a part of my brain.


Like it's just here's the thing. The weapon is never it's really good about like, say, your workout wasn't the best day. It's like, oh, that's because yesterday you worked so hard.


So you while you didn't sleep well or you didn't sleep or you didn't do or bomb workout, today you need to sleep more tonight. You know what? I tell you when to go to sleep. Bosses you around. It's like your personal dominatrix and you can have one because lupus offering 50 percent off right now.


The code Whitney at checkout, go to woop woop dot com and enter Whitney. Check out to say 15 percent, sleep better, recover faster and train smarter. Optimize your performance with Wuk today.


Honestly, get your shit together under that name. You know it will help me get my shit together. Mento Gupta in the shade. So this is interesting because I remember your approach when you're directing actors and when you're the boss of two hundred people, whether you're a boss of two people, five people, whatever, this is all relates to everyone.


I want something Christopher Nolan said once. I once just Googled. Speaking of doing something you're not ready for when I, quote, directed a movie.


Come on, I, I saw Christopher Nolan said something which is just such a great like just lesson on human nature in general. He was like, the thing about actors, we treat them like children, which I have plenty of notes on celebrities and actors. It we treat them like children. They are in a lot of ways. That's what we want actors to be. We want them to be open and playful and in their in their play brain with their frontal lobe shut down, we want them to be with no fear and childlike an impression a lot of ways.


But you can't lie to actors. They're actors. They're students of human behavior and emotion. And when we lie to someone, they know something's off and then they just stop trusting you. And Christopher Nolan is like, it's my job to be in charge. So I have to tell them when something goes wrong. And like like I've been in a lot of situation work where they're like, oh, we're going to shoot over here. And you're like, why?


And they're like, oh, just because I think this is better. And you're like, OK. And you don't totally believe them. Like no one's getting away with anything, I believe. Yeah. When you're around emotionally intelligent people that we can pretend we get it, but we really don't stop trusting the person. And, you know, they don't know why. You don't really know why they sold it, but so he learned to go. We're losing light here because we took to you and admit all the things that went wrong.


You admit it because then they feel safe. Yeah, it's anathema to, I think, the instinct to protect yourself and pretend you're good at everything you go. I messed up on the last scene and we lost light. So now we're going to shoot here, which is my second choice. But I'll fix it in post and it'll be fine. And they go, oh, great.


Well, I think so many actors also want to be directors like you or or are interested or have been on enough sets where they understand the nature of production that I think letting them in on the nature of the production is always helpful. Whether or not it's your fault, you know, just being like we're going to shoot this because or we need to go again or we need to go again, because there was a technical issue. It wasn't on you, you know what I mean, or any of those things, because I think when actors are kept in the dark.


Yes. Then they start to panic or feel and I think this is the same with parenting children. People want to lie to their children and they want to go like, no, mommy or daddy are fine.


No, we were just you know, we were fighting. We had a disagreement and kids go, yeah, oh, God, they can handle we're getting divorced.


That's right. They can understand. They can handle the truth.


Oh, your son is he's setting something up for me. I just have a little surprise. It was said I have a surprise for you. Oh, God. Hold on. Let me can you help me go fast enough that I have a question?


OK, no, but I have a movie question. Can you hold it? Yeah, I think it's all this.


I know you're going to get into this because we don't have that much time, but we do just want to do a reunion.


Oh, my high school ray. Oh. Oh, my God. I love you. I miss you. You look gorgeous. So do you. Where are you? Can I see them? I I'm in Kingston, New York, shooting a little indie film. It's actually the sequel to the remake of The Craft.


Yeah. Oh yeah.


They're going to bring you they're going to bring you into direct later. We're just prepping, you know.


Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. Thank you Ray. Like why haven't you won every Emmy.


Of course. Of course. You ever hear the compliment.


Because she doesn't care. It doesn't have time to go to all the judges and all that. I know.


But honestly, the most brilliant, the most brilliant actor.


Do you remember your audition for Whitney, right? I do. I do. I do. Wife in the car scene. Yes. You want me to do it? You're in it. Yes. You were in an eggplant shirt and you cried at the end. You don't remember crying, yeah, you cried in audition and you had, like going to five auditions a day, like it was like pilot season and this I was like your you came in at like six o'clock and did it.


And it happened. It was over. And like, you just I knew you were going to get the job. I don't know. And I know it, but I didn't know how to say, like, you got the job. I had to like get like 50 men. And that went to school for my writing to say yes.


Like, I remember crying at the test, not the original. That's what it was. Then you're right. You cried at the chest, severe flu.


And they they brought me in for a callback and a test. And I think they still wanted a name or something. And you were fighting them as well as some of the other creatives that were on your team. And I'm like literally they said, you have right now you have to get over here. And I was like, I'm deathly ill.


No, you had to come in and prove yourself for a job you deserved. I don't even know that I was crying. It could have been sweat. I know it was a fever. I was like, no, it was like your it was like there was it was like it was like ancestral pain. It was like all the women before you. And it was like all of the like the momentum from like the years of being in this business and having to literally and figuratively audition for people's approval, who had no business being the people who give the approval out.


Like it was just like it felt like years of frustration coming out of like, I'm fucking doing this again and I am sick and I deserve this.


And I'm here proving something I've already proven a thousand times.


I loved the role, though. I loved Roxann. And I'm sure Zoe had the same experience I did the first time you auditioned for the role, Zoe, didn't you? I had to keep doing right over because Whitney was laughing over. Oh, yeah. So that tape was useless.


Yes. Like I had to be the star of the audition. But, you know, what's funny is I came in for Roxann.


That's right. And and I made you go to the lobby. I said, go to the lobby and move over. You're going to Kolderie that. And you said cold read for Lilly, which I was always used to playing the like, dry sidekick. And Lilly was like the sort of like airy, like flaky. And and I had to come in and read it cold. I was like, no, you look dumb.


Actually read this one is insulting.


I don't buy it because then you brought, like, all this complexity to a role that I think other people might have tried to play as single.


Everyone came in and played it dumb. And I like to always go against. And then Roxann was like, you know, the soup, the Kim Cattrall, the Myranda, the they they wanted like the super feminine mini skirt, whatever.


And it was like, no, but they also like I remember you gave me the note, you said, I just wanted to say that's off the bat. All the we're having some trouble with the actresses coming in.


Or maybe they called me and told me this was a no no. You said it's me, that everyone was coming in and playing her bitchy. And I remember telling her like she's not a bitch. She's helping.


Yeah, yeah, yeah. Helping everyone.


You brought this, like, fragility to her that everyone was playing her, like, tough as nails, like fucking bad bitch. It was like, no, she's like always about to cry. Yeah. And then you came in and almost cried every every week.


It was like a master class. My favorite is when Ray, because the way multicamera works in the way a show works, when someone's inner child is running it and she has no idea what she's doing, the lines change a lot. And when the networks coming in saying we want Whitney to wear more purple so than the last, we need to soften her because she has an eating disorder, we need a purple mask that she looks tired. And I remember Ray and the only other person I've seen do this is Laurie Metcalf on the set of Roseanne in her Stefan Will Pudi.


So on a multicam, which a lot of people don't take seriously.


They think it's like so easy or something when in fact it's a play and raise, like she's she's got her cup and her behavior and she's got the, she's the there's Jackett, she's putting on on the third line and then she's fluffing the pillow and then we'd go, oh, we're cutting those two lines.


And you just you're going like you just see her like she had like she had like a pair that she had taken one bite of. So it's like, do I not take the pair and then watching her. Oh, yeah. Like I was ready to open it rattles. I just but paired and now took the shit down.


But she spent hours on. This behavior, then we go, oh, we're cutting that and just watching the crestfallen nature of the pair, like just watching you redo the blocking.


30 seconds that I was on, I just have to say, I only recently found out.


I think it was like a second season of Star after all these years. I found out that my thinking face looks like that's a dumb note.


By the way, I 100 percent know that they were all dumb notes, but I don't disagree with you. But they were also dumb notes.


But no, but if something changes. So you have to be to say if something changes on white wine 11, you had planned this to get my God the hair, even if you're changing someone else's line. And that was going to be one of the, you know, the mileposts that's like your charting. And then they move that I. I do this.


Yeah, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.


In my head I'm thinking like, OK, so one piece of one did not OK, so there's not going to be a jump. They're not going to take a sip there. At the time of the switch.


I'll switch 17 about women's faces are very triggering. If they're not smiling women, you're a bitch. You're rejecting me. It's just like if a woman's not smiling, everyone can't handle it.


I think there's being palatable. Sure. Yeah. I would also say I also think that if sometimes it's actually a lovely thing, sometimes if someone does respect your craft and what you're doing, they're very worried that they're going to mess something up by like giving you a note that's fucked up or whatever. I don't know, what are we going to do?


I know I was gonna say that I my my approach is so like the opposite from Ray's, which is why it was so much fun to watch her work. And I have so much respect for how meticulous like I love watching an actor who loves business, like in terms like the pillows are like the things like your and when you work with like like Jimmy Burrows, who's like, you know, like such a he'll be like, cross your leg, cross your leg before you say that last word and literally cross your leg and it'll get a laugh like what the f.


Yeah I understand.


And I am so like I'm like I want the props department to stay away from me. Like I just want to like hit my mark and say the line. Yes. I don't want business, I don't want to fluff the pillow. And so it was just so always so.


So it was in a pandemic before. I'm not touching anything. No one comes within six feet of me. I touch nothing. She's just standing there like this very much for every scene. Yeah.


But that's like I don't know, I wouldn't have expected that about you. I would say all three of us heavily, heavily in our acting work. And then that's when you get to be free. When you get there. Sure.


As you have thought out all those things sometimes. Yeah. Sometimes the props for me are just they are punctuations for. Yes, for rhythm.


Well, it's also people aren't saying lines like people talk. It's the last thing they're doing when they're doing something, you know, on a podcast where it's the first thing we're doing. But normally when people are moving around, the talking is like doing business. Yes. Like, I'm just I have to have this conversation.


So that comedy man Jimmy Burrows does it, but so does Jerry Zaks. I was an understudy that got to work with him and it's the same thing. He will watch an entire scene and a long, long scene act of a play even, and he'll go, Oh, Marion, set your teacup down after the line, up before the line. And Chris, make sure you I want you to cross the left instead of crossing right. And then you do the whole thing and you get laugh.


Yeah, it's fascinating.


It's such a fascinating science. I feel like I picked pretty well. You did good. You did a really good. We already talked about sort of the the Salem witch trials of me being dragged across the media. And when this came out, it was the craft. It was like the precursor to the craft.


I keep looking for a different word. Besides proud. I find something about telling someone it's patronizing or something.


Yeah, because I knew you. It's implying that I didn't think you were going to get it. I already knew you were going to get it. It's more like relieved. I'm relieved you got the thing I knew you were going to get.


Can you do a reboot instead?


What I really imagine I feel is I'm not surprised that it's that's it.


It's you got what you deserved.


Mountain, you crest what it is. I feel it's but it's also the process by which the grace by which you get there, Zoe. So, look, I was I was having all sorts of personal emotional problems during Whitney, and my work was my solace was always very lovely about like a lack of social neediness I had that was from other shit.


And and I didn't notice because I was starving. Incredible amount of talent. You also were taking what you were wearing like five. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. I was wearing five leather jackets, but gun gun you were.


But but you you have this incredible amount of talent and you do two things with it that are very inspiring to me. And I remind myself of it a lot when I need to. And that that you you get out of your own way a lot.


You like you have these dreams of of how talented you are, what you're capable of that. I think most artists this far along in the business have, but and we crushed ourselves hours later. We go, can't do that or you're not way.


And then the second thing to do is you have this humility and this insatiable curiosity to actually learn from other people and get better along the way, that once that opportunity happens and I'm looking at a trailer for the craft, I'm like, that's blowing me away. And that took getting out of your own way, but also getting better with every single job. So it's applying the lessons.


You learned a lot of us to learn them over and over again. And something I'll say, this makes me think of something Zoe did, which was very triggering to me at the time because I didn't understand what it was, which is Zoe. Does not allow you to create a space that makes it so she can't do her best work. You hired me to do my best work, so I'm going to need to set some boundaries and ask for some things I need so that I can deliver for you.


Like there were times where Zoe would say, like whether I need another take or I don't get this line. I be like, oh, like at the time because I was in so much fear and emotional perfectionism, it was like I didn't understand that that's her doing her job. Her it is also our job to claim space and make sure that we are able to do our best work. And sometimes at the time when people set boundaries or took care of themselves, that was threatening to me because I didn't I didn't understand that that's what they were doing.


It was like a rejection or a judgment. It felt like a judgment to me. You're telling me I'm failing in some way because my ego is running the show and my fear. So it's like Zoe, even on her first job where you think you're, like, walking on eggshells and I'll do anything you say. It was like she was like, no, it's part of my job is to make sure I can do my job. And sometimes that means setting boundaries and saying no and disagreeing with you.


And I didn't know that's what she was doing at the time, but that's such a, I think, important thing for women and anyone in a position of not power to go harder for women. You hired me to stand up to you so that I can deliver.


Thank you so much, guys. OK, bye. It's like it's very it's very emotional. Saying the most beautiful things and I am so I'm really like so, so grateful.


It's intense for both of you.


And it's like it's very emotional because we really all have you're like fucking should be bitch. I'm saying really nice things. And we all met each other at a real turning point.


And I think all of us were at a point that was like very. Yeah. Like, like even just hearing the story of you crying in that test, you know, it can be so debilitating and destabilising as an artist to be told no so many times and that we were able to sort of so many times.


Yeah. And that by the time someone says yes, you're almost too broken and worn down to like I mean it's like what is it you say?


Like the only thing worse than actors not working is like actors getting a job. No actors are miserable till we get the job right. You know what I mean? Because then you have the job and now you're dealing with all these complicated personalities and you have to believe in yourself and be a star when everyone told you you weren't a star for so long. So then there's like the imposter syndrome, too, of like, I'm here and now I don't know what the fuck to do when I'm here and I don't know how to clean my own space and do my best work.


And we were all in in a in a space of fear together, you know. I mean, we all had our different not just because Krista, that were comingling, you know, and like and I think like it is, you know, what you guys are saying to me is is so meaningful and I cannot thank you enough for all of your, like, bolstering words. But like, it is so incredible to watch both of your paths, like, you know, like that we were there together.


And then like Ray, just to see the unbelievable work you've continued to do that has taken the world by storm. And Whitney to see not only your growth as a fucking empire, but like where you've taken on you've taken on the business where you've given yourself such an incredible amount of agency that is so inspiring and powerful and such an incredible example for so many women and all people.


Because I I mean, you guys were there when it was all we want to do is put on plays for people and make them laugh and feel and move and heal ourselves and them and heal where we want to be healers. Right. But the number of people we had to ask for permission, the number of gatekeepers that we had to tap, dance for shapeshifter, walk on eggshells around, compliment, make think they could focus at some point. I mean, that's very real.


I mean, there's I got a lot of opportunities because I flirted and made someone believe they could date me, but I couldn't give too much because then they needed to. I mean, that was a very real form of power that we had until very recently. I just taught by a working actress in an acting school. She came and told us what to do to get a job. She's an audition is a first date. Yeah.


And I was like, yes, OK, no, I know actresses that didn't wear underwear to the auditions and you know what I mean.


So, I mean, it's like that was I was never I was never flirty and I, I'm an razek and I've made it, I've made it with integrity.


So you guys need to shut the fuck up like, I don't know, I did it with talent. Yeah. She's like, what is the. No, listen, I overcame the need to do that.


I was just too talented. That's true. I was a heavier set when I started and so no one would let me anywhere near the new roles at all. I played all these character roles and it was the best training and experience ever. And then by the time I just got healthy for myself, I started auditioning for on camera stuff. And I was a blonde, a white, blonde, blue eyed woman that immediately was going to be asked to come in for some girlfriend parts.


And like, I didn't I didn't know what I just thought, like, well, clearly you have to make them interesting.


Like, she oh, she's just she just like this guy shit on her. She must be like broken and damaged or on drugs and like that's how I would approach the audition. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.


Oh. Because no woman would. Oh my God.


But the feedback would be you put subtext where there was no subtext. Well they would say she just needs to be a lot more feminine. That's what's in her way. That's the feedback I got from my agent. I was like, what does that even mean?


Well, in one case, they actually pressed I said, I need you to get more feedback to my agent. I said, it's not even like when I first started auditioning.


I need to be dumber and weaker. Yes, and simpler. I need to be simple.


Ask her questions. She just always has an answer to be dumber, simpler, less dimensional. You're just two dimensional.


But I also had to work a little bit on fighting a fight that wasn't there and sitting on wearing giant sweatpants to auditions that it's for like a hot agent.


Yeah, yeah. I was really going like, yeah, not this one. I'm going to. Yeah, I'm going to prove a point.


Yeah. And not get a job. And I was when you said something to me that I have not forgotten and I have to touch upon time and time again. And that was I understand we're talking about imposter syndrome, which I'm fascinated with and have, but it was more like I have imposter syndrome.


I think I'm as talented as you, which is what's got me so far.


Oh, you are. But I didn't. And this was going on and it was a turning point for me of like I have lost my sense of self value when I am not working. My Chernus stood that although I had doubts, I understood like I know how to do my job. And if I work hard, I put my head down and really fucking figure those props down like I can be value added to a story. But the second I left, I did not understand my value in the world.


And when you said something might have been in your book or something, you said to me, I can't remember about starting the year zero until you produce something. And then, like, you get like a point for everything you made today or accomplished how your self worth. But then you're starting at zero. It's in the book.


And that is where I was. Yeah. It's, um, I outsource my self esteem. And, you know, look, productivity in cooperation makes dopamine. That's there's a biological basis for that. But yeah, it was like my self worth. I had a linear relationship between my self worth and what I had made or produced, you know, so it was which is a goose chase because I didn't think I was enough. You know, like you really find out what you think of yourself when you do nothing all day.


Are you a piece of shit or you? Nothing, because I had a chronic I'm falling behind thing as well. My and I think that, as you know, we were just talking about as women in our age group, if another woman got something, I lost a point. And I'm I'm falling behind. And in the root of I'm falling behind is there is an expiration date coming. So you're only falling behind if you're going to run out of time at some point.


So there was a clock on women and I was always like forty five, like I had like you have till forty five, like I had a thing we have it with.


You have to get married by, you have to have a baby by. You have to be get famous by because then I expire.


I had this not self-imposed.


Yes. Internalized socially constructed. Who cares where it came from. Of you only have a certain amount of time. High def television is real.


It's a magnifying glass and I remember.


Do you remember the first when you were on high def and you. It showed freckles and we had to take them out. And so do I ever tell you that.




We used to take your freckles out and pose because they did.


You know that I'm Whitney. I was animated. Did you know that impulse? They would. This is why everything everyone thinks I'm such a bad actress, because all any nuance stuff that I was doing in my face, they took out and post. Oh, you don't remember. I do remember that.


OK, so I remember you coming into the makeup room and being like your lipstick is too loud on high def.


I remember. And then Michael Patrick King later called the dimensional talking. Did so someone more talented agreed with me. Yeah. Because I was really. You were wearing a neon poppy. Yeah. You were hiding your talent behind that neon poppy or I was amplifying.


Yeah. You're being too loud. Yeah. You had lines even when you weren't talking, you were in an ensemble. Sometimes you need to shine. You gotta do still focus though. Always dealing with both things.


But I tell you a fucked up story is that I studied at the Atlantic Theater Company Acting School and and yeah, I'm going to say on this podcast, David Mamet came and gave us a guest class and said to me, he called mentored me. He was sort of like famously gruff. And so I get super scared when when like because he would show up out of nowhere. And you have to like Dad, you have to, like, put something up for him.


Compared to like a scene that you whatever, and he was really such a God at that school and, you know, in the theater community at large and and I put up a scene that I had written and it was really scary. But I was like, fuck it, you know, I'm going to see what happens. Yeah. And he he usually would cut people off halfway through.


It was so brutal. And he let me get through it.


And then he said, who wrote that? And I said, I did. He said, you should you should keep writing. And it was so beautiful. But then afterwards he came up to me and he said, Why are you here? And I said, like, I was I was like, What do you mean like this? You're acting like I'm here to learn a craft. And he was like, Well, your shelf life is short.


What is and why are you like to be a writer, not an actor, not acting? No, I think acting wise he was like, you should just be go out there. No, go out there and start working. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Shelf-life as a as an on camera presence because your, your looks are all that matter.


So don't worry about the craft. And at the time he might have been right, he might have not known the shift that was coming. Well you know what I mean.


Never. I mean he was right in that.


I mean there is that thing that I'm on his side, amazingly, but it was so discouraging, like as a young woman who who was so excited to be.


So if your career now, if this is you discouraged, imagine like David Mamet held you back.


This is you discover this is you at your lowest success because he thwarted you. Wow.


I remember we were at the you did practical. I didn't I don't think I knew that. So it's practical handbook, right? Yeah. Yes. My that's my basic training. Don't tell me you don't do that shit insane that I don't do that prep. Right. I do not I, I hate that prep.


Zoey and I on stage. I didn't train there. That's just the book they taught where I was. I remember we were at a wrap party for Whitney, a wrap party. And I always thought the key because I was like reading books on how to be a boss. Like I was just like I was like, how do I'm my boss now? I have to figure it out. So I would like read these books I like to in the morning and like how to win friends and influence like how to know.


And one of them is like no, everybody's name all the time says I'm going to know everyone's name because it was like I'm a woman, I'm in charge. People already hate me. I'm already the actress. So the writers in the room hate me because I'm the actress and the actors hate me because I'm also the writer.


You know, it's like I'm I I'm triggering everyone and I'm, you know, also no idea what I'm doing. Right. And then so I learned like snow, everybody's names. And that was my whole thing. So I'd stay up at night. I would memorize the whole cast cast. I had to learn your names, find it. I would memorize the whole crew list. Right. Because I was like, oh, they're going to think I'm equal to them.


And like, hey, John, look them in the eye. Like no one's going to feel abandoned and rejected by me and they're going to do their best work. And this is all going to go get fixed in the ad campaigns are going to come down or whatever. I was hoping, you know, I'm going to stop being like you humiliated in the press at times of the wrap party. And there was someone whose name I didn't know. And I was like, oh, no, you know, I have to go introduce myself to this person.


I was like, hi, I don't know you. What's your name? And he was like, Oh, I'm John. I was like, oh, what do you do on the show?


Like, I'm a good boss.


And I was like, Oh, I fix your face in post because, like, what I was like, what do you mean?


He's like, Oh yeah, I take out your under eye circles and posts. And I was like, Oh, I'll be fair.


He didn't need to be that specific about, you know. Oh, to be fair, he has Aspergers. Yeah, he panicked. And the motive that I'm in, I'm in post he said I'm the one that takes that. Well, he was proud of his work. I mean, that's the other thing. He's like I'm the one that told him and he thought he was. Yeah. You know, he's saying something good. He was helping.


He was he didn't know that. I didn't know. So I only was told you have to turn in cuts five days sooner. I didn't know they lied to me about or they didn't tell me, which is probably the right probably the right thing to do in retrospect. But yeah. So I look like marzipan in the show.


It's just I look like a piece of cake. I look like a pound cake. Comes up a lot for me. Yeah.


Is that is a favorite food is like five or six where she likes to rotate through.


She called the craft legacy visual marginal marzipan. It's so creamy it looks, it's like, it's like oh God.


Well I was on bad wi fi. I was in the air. It was JetBlue. I fly. Yeah it was. It's animated. Right.


It's a cartoon. Right. It's you shot the whole thing out of focus.


Right on purpose. You haven't even seen it yet to make it a dreamlike state. Yeah. It just took her two hours to watch the trailer. Yeah. So bad luck at your wedding finger.


Oh, my God. Yeah. Still not married, still engaged. Take your time. The best are. Ever so hot, so hot, it's really hot, so we waited nine years to get married. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah.


Wow, what how long till the craft until this case is over? We got three or four more hours on this. I the crap comes out on October 28th.


Today. Today. Oh my God.


We love you. Thank you for doing this. This is our reunion. It's our Whitney reunion. But we'll do a real one when I get back.


Yes, for sure.


Congrats to both of you. I love you. Inspiring everybody. I mean, your better call, Saul. Unbelievable. Come on. Unbelievable work.


Thank you. Give her all the awards. All the awards. Let's give me all the awards. Yeah, you don't have time to do all the bullshit brunches and shit that are actually what get people the awards because they buy awards. Because your work. Oh, I should get more money.


But I didn't know you have to like people don't know, were like the bullshit of awards. It's all like who's willing to go to the most breakfasts I love.


Yeah. And then the studio has to be like yeah.


Like all the awards are like you're missing and I feel like it's not the take away which is was the line that Roxann said in her audition scene. Not the takeaway. Not the takeaway.


Not the takeaway. All right. I'm going to say that we're doing an all night shoot. Oh, my God.


I love you. So happy to be working. I love you. Bye bye. Bye, guys.


Come on. What a surprise. Am I taking these? Oh, yes, these. Now come off inventing. What was your question about. Well, right back at it. OK, because I'm going to pee. I have a lot. OK, I know it's your turn.


So first of all, I just want to know or say for everyone that's going to watch this, then maybe have my expectations that the way that you go about introducing us into these moments from the original craft is so new and respectful, like the way that you threw in light as a feather, stiff as a board. But it was like a moment and not like this, saying, remember this thing, guys, everybody remember this as we remember and you gave us so many new moments to attach to was golden.


Thank you. But there's one I don't wanna give too much to the movie, but there's one scene specifically in this movie that really stuck out to me where they are talking with this male character who has had this, like, rebirth into this like new identity.


And we'll see how he gets there, anything but where they hang out with him and kind of invite him into this room to sit in this circle together. That for me, I was like, I don't know.


It was like a really kind of powerful for me because I was like as someone who has watched this movie and kind of gone through life, whereas like for me, like why I identify as a man, obviously I'm very happy being a man, having a good time doing it like it's fine. But I feel very much attached to like female energy and women in that space. And specifically, like with this movie, that scene, this scene where they're like inviting him to be part of this circle.


I was like, oh, that's me. Like, I kind of felt seen. I was like, that's for me. Yeah. I mean, I won't get to reverse the movie, obviously what happens.


But I was like, that's like really important, I think, for a lot of people, because in the first and the original, you had to, like I said, you to look for yourself. And in this one I was like, I didn't have to at all. I don't know if I was a part of it. I'm not a part of the next one. I'll be.


Were there any major challenges or disasters on the shoot? Like, you know, I think sometimes you come in and run into my emotional stuff anyways.


Are there any challenges right now? My mental strength, please.


I'm sorry if I need one of your drinks, hopefully.


What what is it Benton posted the other day? Someone. Oh, how Nicole Richie used to work for Kim Carr now used to work for. He posted like one day.


But also Kim was Paris's assistant, wasn't she? I think that's a very inspiring story for her.


Is it what? They don't work for them now, but isn't that nice? Yeah.


O'Lantern showed up one day and he was like he was like I heard Lady Gaga, his former assistant, just made four hundred thousand dollars on a book deal. I'm like million, four million dollars in a book. I'm like, easy. Like, why tell me what you're going to do?


I'm shaking, telling you that I'm fighting for me. How exciting for me to have my own moment in the corner. And that's what I said were manifesting. I mean, that's what Benton does, right? He manifests a benzo. He's coming in to say, I'm about to make four hundred or four million dollars fenthion.


Look there, Benton can achieve whatever he wants. I was on Benton's vision board, OK?


How many times within our vision board before I was how when do you make the vision board?


I mean, that vision board in 2009, I believe I was a freshman in college and Lisa Kudrow from The Comeback was also on it.


Who you were with on the pilot with Amazon. She was on it. What on your vision board has not come true. I don't have blue checkmark.


You don't have a social worker.


That was what it is. That's on my vision board. A big giant blue checkmark right on there because it's very specific about it.


OK, so we're working on it.


Trover. Yeah, there's a lot of cars on. There are a lot of awards going on a book. And I'll be very honest, I have a very positive attitude about my vision board. I was just something I put up and I just looked at. It was almost I look at words like little prayers, kind of this is what it is. And then I kind of look at.


But so you got me. I mean, it backfired.


No, I got you in a really cool way. I think way better than I could have because the vision board was just like those are careers that I made my vision board. These are careers or people that I would like to mimic their their careers.


And I kind of got you in a totally different way than that. It was like, I have a real. You live in my house. Yeah. Mimicking I got the actual you and then so I mean, that's wild because you're it's wild to think about. And then you just walked up to me at a show and I was like, come live with me.


I mean, it's really strange, that vision board.


And so, you know, like, I think the crap we all are, which is what you're saying and living on Momma's on my vision board.


She is my friend, but that is the thing is like we all like it is a matter of we're manifesting energy.


That's crazy. Yeah. And I think that what the the craft does, I think what this movie does is like all the things that people told you was crazy, hippy dippy, silly psychic bullshit, metaphysical. We malign that. That's there's there's a very long tradition in our species of rolling our eyes at ambition, especially women having ambition or someone others not having ambition.


Having big dreams is like is embarrassing.


It's embarrassing. Mm hmm. That was I was I'm still to this day, I get like when someone says what you want to do, whatever we want.


And I think there's a biological basis for making ourselves small and not wanting too much or stealing light that can't fail if I never tell.


That's right. Yes, I can't. And if you don't celebrate your successes, then you can't be disappointed.


On the other hand, I also Strutt also. It's like you're asking for too much. Who do you think you are? Syndrome were made to feel. And I think this is kind of changing with the next generation. I think that what we view as like arrogant and like this next generation that's like me, me, me, me, me, we're just kind of like we think that's gross because we were conditioned to be small, whereas the next generation is like, no, this is how we make money like business.


And being confident and ambitious is lucrative in the legacy.


There's so many of these little and again, this would be me projecting how many little layers of like didn't have to be like magic persay. It's just like you can do this thing if you have a group, people that believe in you. Yes. And it's just like you had your crew. You don't have to take power from people.


You can get your own power. Yeah. And you don't have to write letters to someone. You don't have to take it.


There's all these like layers and it's like all the ships rise with. Yes. And that is it's such a paradigm shift when you go there. Yeah. Because it is me or you know, it's like, oh no, both of us together. Yeah. It's like Joe Rogan is really who showed that in the podcast space. I mean as someone that like kind of single handedly, it's like dismantling this other Byzantine smoke and mirrors of we all have to ask permission of these people with these kind of fake jobs that they don't deserve but were complicit in the gaslighting because you're agreeing to them and we're giving them the power that we have.


We're giving them we're giving them the ability to give us permission for a thing we already can do. We just didn't have the cameras. We didn't have the distribution arm. They had all the distribution. They had the, you know, the TVs in the bandwidth and the fucking wires or however shit shows up. And now it's like the power has been restored. It's like, you know, I got really emotional on the plane when it was like we've been unbound.


It's like that really is like what I feel like has happened to me in the last couple months of like and I'm sorry that a pandemic is is why it happened. But I think, you know. The Internet really is like has made the people that never got to have voices be unbound. Yes, because there's no gatekeepers.


I would have been better tried to mine again.


Yeah, let's take it back. I agree. And I think, like, part of what, unbound? And can we just say what Unbound means?


Because I so important, I want people to leave this podcast saying unbound because you might be bound right now and you're now goal after this podcast has become unbound after you watch the movie now available.


Well, binding is a practice in witchcraft, which you could probably speak to, too. But if someone you know is a danger to themselves or others through a ritual, you can find them.


And in the film, what I wanted to look at also was the ways in which those who are in which in which those who are like marginalised often bind themselves because they're being told that they should want less or they don't deserve more, or they should make themselves small because they don't fit into what we've got. We don't have time. The box a short shelf life.


Yeah. Or yeah. But you know. Yeah, but it really just means you're a threat but it means you're a threat. And so like in, in, in the film the girls actually end up deciding to bind their own powers. And that is I think especially when those, you know, those of us who have it's that it's that self-doubt that so many of us struggle with to say, you know what, I'm actually going to step back from this.


I'm going to step back from this power because of what we've been taught is it's going to overwhelm me and it's going to be out of my control.


And instead, I think and other people, if I'm big, other people will feel small. Yeah. And I need to make other people feel bad. Yes. Me safer. I mean, there's a biological basis for it, but it's like obsolete now. Yeah. Yeah. Is the I need to not take up too much space, not be too loud.


You know, I think that for the longest time, you know, those without power they stayed safe by assuaging the person with power and being, you know what I'm saying, staying small.


So they didn't feel like we were because so they didn't feel threatened and attacked. They'd kill us.


There's a great quote, you know, if you don't if you don't work on building your own dream, you spend your whole life helping someone build their home. And that's very much, I think, what we're kind of taught to do by being a thank you for doing that, by the way.


And yeah. And he's about done with building your career and being like whatever face there and being like this is the last stop on this train as a like a prize.


Yeah. Yeah. I just because you just would just disappear.


But there is is but but it is like one of those, I mean I had, I had my teacher told me I went to marketing, merchandising for design and I was like I would like to work at Vogue. And she said, I mean, sure, like you'll never get to go to Vogue.


I went to Vogue the first week.


Guess which we went through the first week. Remember The New York? That's amazing. And I mean, it wasn't for me, but I still went in.


I got into the building. Yeah. And I think those are I don't think people do that a lot.


People put their limitations on themselves for themselves, on, you know, their own fears. Oh, yes, ma'am. You couldn't do it. Yeah, I just I mean, I can't do it.


I had a teacher in acting school who, like he was sensing that, like I started directing. It was a sketch comedy class and I started directing. People sort of asked me to direct their sketch comedy things. I was the director of the artistic director of, like, our little sketch comedy group. And and then Mamet came and gave gave me that comment publicly. And so there are all these things. And he I found out later he was known to do this, but every year he would choose a different woman to do this to.


And he was not never fired for doing so.


But basically you're going to child. And I was like, I'm here for this story. Actually, this is very upsetting to me. I was this man.


Oh, the trauma is very much living inside, if you like, running down the hallway.


My journey, he and he basically like completely out of nowhere. And I was on an academic scholarship.


He gave me a failing grade at A where I had I was like, really? I did my best work in that class. I had perfect attendance. I was the artistic director. And then he wrote like a two page single spaced evaluation that went to the entire school that said that he would make sure that I never worked again in this industry. And it was just such an abusive evaluation in addition to like me being like, well, this is also impacting my academic scholarship.


And it's so clear. And I ended up being the first, Tom.


I think student at that school to take him on because these incidences had been brushed under the rug for years before where he would because he was really like he I remember there was like one is a real tangent, but I just, you know, the inner child needs to talk. There was one one like there was a Mormon student, a woman who she asked what a wet willy was in class and he licked his finger and stuck it in her ear.


He called all of us babe and honey and sweetie.


And then at this one point, he when I was directing these young women are kind of a bad if I had my mom and he he told these these young women were like trying to do like a handshake, like a funny handshake for their sketch. And he was like twister titty twister titty for the handshake. So just like these moments where we were all just a little bit like this feels really uncomfortable for us as young women. And you're our professor and we're 19 years old.


And and the fact that he did it meant so many people went along with it for so long, so long.


And then he would take and I think any woman who in his situation, he would in his classroom, he would see which woman would sort of stand up, which is sort of what you were talking about, just like if like I was the one to say, like, you're the problem, I'm not OK. I'm not OK with this, which I never even when it is such a it is this industry specific where. Yes. And predators look wild, huh.


I think teachers are while they never say anything helpful. Well, they are. They have like one favorite student.


It's their job. I remember the first place that I went and the Scientologists are going to come for me, but the first place I went in L.A. was so I just got scared for the first time. And not much scares me, but. Except Scientologists. Yeah, we'll decide if we cut it out. There's an acting school in L.A. and.


Oh yes, I know. Yes. And I went to the beginning and it's like not I don't like acting. I still don't I'm not totally sure what it is. I mean, I'm acting right now. We're always acting. You don't even want to react. You want to be whatever it just cameras are here. So it's acting, I guess. Yeah.


And they would basically just try to break you down psychologically and have you trauma bond with them and try to. It's a call to I mean, it's to make you their master.


It's like it's Nexium one on one, you know, so my acting to you to try to convince me like that I was molested like in front of the whole class, always in front of the whole, you know, that which I'm sure I was.


But it was like but and then they kind of gaslight you into believing that you're going to solve they're going to solve the problem that they created. Right. Which is why so many actors then entered into Nexium like.


Yeah, like like legit but truly legit. They would they would when they said that the places they would recruit were acting schools and yoga studios, it all made sense.


I was like, OK, I mean, it's Scientology goes to meetings and acting studio. Someone has to stop acting teacher. You just can't imagine coming after the ballet. And my next special and we also sort come after acting teacher.


I mean, my teacher would have to stand in front of our group and she would just be like, say that, but don't be funny now. I'll say it again. I'll say it again. And then she'd be like, change your voice. Do a different voice with only one that's a sadistic person.


Yeah, that's crazy. That's a power trip. And she would say bye to everybody but me the other day.


I remember. Yeah, well, that was she was threatened by your power and your talent.


That's what I think. I think it's important to talk about jealousy and being threatened by people's power. Yes. And what that does and that's what I did that I did stand up. If someone doesn't like you, what does that mean? That means they're jealous of you and threatened by your power or you're a meanie.


Yeah. I mean, yeah, I will say this about manifesting things, which is.


When I bought my first house, which I couldn't afford, you told me bet on yourself, which is also why it's the house that Whitney built, because I wasn't I have always and continue to operate from a place of scarcity. And you were like, you will afford that house. You can't afford it now, but you will. That the pot calling the kettle black. That's so interesting, you have all these words of wisdom for the very first show I ever did with Whitney, where she invited me to that guest spot.


When I got off stage, I open the green room door and it's a really small green room. I open the green room door and she's standing in the doorway like this and she's looking at me. And I was, like, already nervous. This could be, you know, and she was like, do this a lot. And I was like, oh, my God, did I do a bad job? And I was like, oh, I mean, sometimes if I get to open for someone, there's like a like a group like this.


And she went, well, you should do it all the time. And then just sat down and I was like, OK, yeah, well that is similar to when we first met.


And she's sort of like, why aren't you famous? Like it wasn't like it came from almost a place of anger.


It was like I was like it was a hassle. Like it was like, well, no, it's just like no one's handled this yet. It was just like it's to me, like most of the things that I do that come up that are like whatever Kris Jenner, the Kris Jenner in me is like no one's going to make. So I'm the one that has to make this person famous. That's like that is like shooting standup specials and stuff in my backyard.


I'm like I just kept waiting for someone else to do it. No one would. So I just like end up doing it because no one else is a Virgo Favaro girl.


I I'm also just want to let everyone know you do know that more of you exist. I know, but do you think that she owns it.


Every Virgo thing. So the only she learned about Zodiac signs this year, she thought I invented them. Weird.


No they're my know but I, I love that when I go home is the most important thing.


So my thing is, well, if you don't buy the house, you're not going to make the money to afford the house is your home is where you're going to thrive and that's your, you know, gets your creative space. So it's like how are you ever afford a house if you don't buy this house? It's just like to me that just like it's I grew up in an alcoholic home. I knew home was the only thing that mattered your space.


And like, you know, I think that what's important for people who are listening is like Instagram. There's Burkin bags and their shoes and there's Gucci purses and there's crystal water bottles and there's the bullshit. And there's all the snake oil, the snake oil, the snake oil, all the snake oil. Venton Yeah, that's a secret.


OK, cut up all the snake oil.


And, you know, we don't talk about financial gaslighting and we don't, you know, in this business, in every business, we talk about sexual abuse.


We're not talking about financial abuse in the way that because I believe money is is your your ability to be solvent, that's your ability to get out of a bad situation for women making money like women want money. It's not to buy purses. Women want to make as much money as men because so they can buy more tampons. I don't know what we're doing. It's like the tampons are expensive.


They are being taxed cash. That's a whole other conversation. But, you know, tampons are like thirteen dollar. It's and then cotton balls right next to the tampons are fifty cents. That's right. It's the same product. That's right. And they put some perfume in it because our pussies need to smell like anything but a like it's happening. Yeah.


I'm saying scented tampons in my car, rearview mirror and air freshener for the car. I actually think this is part of the reason we bonded so hard, so fast. When I got into the car when we were in Kentucky.


Yeah. Immediately started going through everything. Just always, always, always.


So what happens when I walk to the first time I walk in your house open to every cabinet? It was really intense and continues to. Yeah, yeah.


When I whenever I walk into someone else's space or home, I have to just open all the cameras immediately.


What are you looking for. What's there skeleton's. I'm looking for whatever's there. I know what's behind all the wall. The doors. Right. Right, right. So as soon as I walk into a home I instantly just open all the cabinets.


Don't invite her to your house. Well, don't ever invite her to your home or clean out the cabinets.


We I don't care what's in there. I just need to know what. Yeah. Yeah, there's no judgment. Yeah. Because it's like all like it's all vitamins.


Yeah. Powder's so always my favorite person to go to lunch or dinner with because you like order and then she'll be like I'll have a water and two lemons.


I mean she'll be ordering a spell.


She's like I'll have two lemons and one mouse and three egg shells and then your food will come and then as soon as the waiter comes over with her like half a lemon to orange rinds and whatever it is, six grains of salt, whatever she's ordered and just reached into her purse, it's so so you'll literally be sitting there literally sitting, eating like you'll get your salad.


So it's just reaching her person just like she's brought her food. You brought your food today?


Oh, no, no. I used to correct this. I bring food to restaurant. I bring supplements, I bring supplements. I bring herbs, herbs and vitamins. Look, an actual fact is, I mean, she's Mary Poppins, like the things that are coming out of her purse.


I mean, there's always like at least like what I do take too many supplements. I am a true nightmare to eat out with. And I always try to preface this. I feel really bad for the waitstaff.


Mm hmm. Yeah. I always do this because I also sense everyone else's embarrassment and humiliation. Because you're empathic. Yeah. What happens and what is the restaurant? Let's just do what we're we're at a restaurant Made-To-Order.


Yeah. Well, first of all, I go. Yes.


Can I ask you a few questions as I can I ask you a few questions and then I like to follow all the action when you get back and you can be the main acting teacher.


OK, ok. OK, hold on. Oh, man. Hey guys. What's up. Hey, how's it going.


Hi. Hi. Hi. Can I ask you a few questions so I don't eat gluten free soy or night shades also corn.


And can you tell me what's safe on this menu and then they. OK, go ahead. I was going to act for you. That's my nightmare also. So can you tell me, like, is that OK? Is the chicken is the chicken free of those things? What was the chicken is a chicken for other things. And is the chicken organic. Oh what's your food.


And then hold up. Wait where's my purse. Okushiri. I actually have my pills. I mean part of the thing is that I do take all of them. I'm very good at taking my vitamins.


You do. Yeah you do. But it's a ritual. I mean, it's all about you. Cooperation and productivity makes dopamine. So a lot of times what we're getting from taking vitamins, even if it is doing nothing for you, it is it is producing dopamine. The fact that you have the placebo of it, that you have a ritual, that you check a box. Yes, you have a schedule. So it's like if you work out and don't have an idea of what you're going to do, you're going to go, oh, that was a shitty where like the idea is to.


And Gary Coleman, when he was on talked about this with depression is that you set goals and achieve them. And when you achieve a goal, if you have no goals and don't achieve them, then you feel listless and like I did achieve and I'm a failure and I suck. And what builds self-esteem is doing esteemable actions, which means accomplishing goals. So I'm going to take this vitamin every morning. It doesn't matter if it's actually vitamin C, if it's who gives a shit, it's the fact that you're taking it and being consistent that builds self-esteem.


Right. But you believe it or not, this year that you only pulled medicine out of that bag.


You're just carrying the medicine cabinet on your back. That's absolutely when that is a joke in the way.


Any pilot, Dr. Quinn? Yeah, I think that's what got us picked up, really that Dr. Quinn.


Dr. Quinn, when I also there was a legal joke in the pilot as well.


That sounds attractive that. Yeah, it's mostly it's motion by and right now I'm doing them right now. Yeah. Which I am.


It's mostly vitamins and obviously saw some beauty, some some beauty products.


One one pair of sunglasses but one.


But we are but what we're doing the exact thing she's of the the American clothes on this, we're shaming her for being the most prepared.


We're shaming her for getting ahead of it. We're shaming her is we.


Oh, that's right.


I take full risk. I take responsibility. I was cut out of that video. I give my glasses. Yeah. Turn into black and white.


I we make fun of the highly evolved.


You know, this is all the most prepared and the least organized. I think it's organized to you.


I mean, you know where it is kind of I do a lot of digging.


Turns out you're not a perfectionist, also not a Virgo. But that's the thing is when you go into my cabinets, like my house, everything is like very, very tidy.


What is it? What you made the new craft.


But if you open a drawer, it is a mess, which is also maybe just like the art the artist draws are confusing what even goes in a drawer, you know what I mean?


If there are four letters, stores like let's just what is going on there anything.


Anything you want. Junk drawers. Oh, I love a junk drawer. Every drawer. You're making me feel like I'm hiding.


Why, what's a drawer? And if you had one or worse now, if your kitchen wasn't all cabinets, you would know.


Listen, I think because this is about the craft, I brought rooms.


Oh, my gosh. So you can catch one and then I can do them. So these French amount of bone because the witch lady. What can we learn about them from was like, it's nice to have something that's like you to catch, you know what I mean?


So these are Bonura and so you can cast them OK? They say, OK, I've never cast around. OK, so what you're going to do is you can do it. You can close the bag up and shake it and then dump the bag out. OK, or you can just pick some out with your hand and sprinkle them however you want.


So and how many should I pick out you? I didn't realize there were so many. OK, I just scatter them. OK, flip them over. That's what she said, but, you know, I mean, they could be lying. OK, OK, now I have to do is find all those friends.


Mean, that's one of them, that is one of them, one, it's for OK, let's see what it means.


Oh, it's up, right? OK, great. So this means that people listening in on you to you are going to overcome opposition. You will fulfill individual needs and plans.


You're going to have a big win.


There'll be no opposing forces working against you for this, a new career opportunity will come your way based on a past opportunity.


This spring signifies that sometimes that you may feel like the timing is not right for a new beginning currently due to circumstances throughout the world. But it's always a good time to go after your dreams journal.


My personal journal.


Truly, that's amazing. And let's see where. Another bullet point.


Don't expect bad things. Expect the best and dark times. It's hard, you have to throw your backpack out. We expect bad things, that's why that's what I'm doing and you know that, and I think that I'm going to be able to control the outcome.


And when we say and we say the program is when you forgive people, you take breaks out of your backpack because you're carrying your arms around.


Like, my backpack is so heavy. I know. Radical forgiveness. Yeah.


OK, so the middle one, the straight line is about an emotional relationship, you may have felt there was a breach in loyalty, but right now you feel all disloyalty eating away and you feel like all your shortcomings are coming to a resolve in a fairly short amount of time that everything you have going on is salvageable and you see big plans.


This is a lot about plans.


Yeah. So do it any faster.


I mean, I only can read the book as far as I can find the room. Well, having to find the room, people watching this, probably this is not how you do this. And then this one. The first one. Says that you should take caution of all your careful thoughts and sometimes just go with how you feel about overthinking. Oh boy, advice is given freely to you and you should give advice freely back. Look at your surroundings and take the leap.


You don't have to overthink.


And mother, everything needs energy. Also, you should look into apprenticeships, gifting your trade to other people and learning a new trade for yourself. You never know where it could take you.


Oh, I love that. Benton, thank you so much. That was such a gift. And I want to get some runes because I used to do the etching, which is, you know, about that. It's sort of similar, but it's like a sort of like a fortunetelling.


Well, I'll give you these runes now. They say, yeah, you have these they say that you're not supposed to buy your own, like, tarot cards or propose to give them to people.


So you just have those.


Thank you so much. This is the best day of my life.


I mean, it kind of actually is, though I don't believe in a sequel.


Remember, it is this has been the most emotional podcast apart, truly, literally podcast I've ever been on camera with.


I guess for. Really? Yeah, maybe I just make it better.


No way. It was incredible. It was incredible to have you be a part of this conversation because the original craft is so meaningful to you. And like that is so it's so like I was telling you before, it's such a relief to hear from someone who loves the original someone.


I told you it took so much it took so much bravery to make the movie to begin with, because also it's important to know a lot of people are going to there's going to be negativity.


Why are you not talking a lot more?


We're no longer a part of this. Why are you over there and not here? You do.


I'm done. But yeah, Dave's done now. We're we're done. We finished one of those days is that there are going to be people there's going to be negative. As someone that has dealt with backlash that was half about me. It's like because we've become projection, right. We're mirrors. Right. So you just become a mirror, like a lot of energy is going to come at you. Positive and negative, but it's all just energy.


Yeah, I felt so much positive energy here today.


So I want to thank you both for all of that because it was really so when any other kind of energy comes at you, it's not about you. It's not it's not about. Yeah, it's just kicking up. Yeah. It's your healing people. Yeah. You're giving your ability.


Find it, move on, find yourself behind it and move on.


Find it and move on. Johnny, I know unbound are very triggering to bound people.


That's right. Absolutely right. Don't ride elephants. I love you guys.


I think we're gonna go bye bye.