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This is JoCo podcast number two three with Echo, Charles and me, JoCo Willink, Good evening, Echo. Good evening. It's a different world when you get home. I mean, at some point while you're over there. You accept death. You you give away normal life, you give away the normal world.


It's probably just a coping mechanism of some kind. To just accept your fate. To accept your fate, that the world is war. That the world is dirt and blood and pain and death, and you have to accept that. At least I did. Then I'd be lying to you. If I said that, I didn't want that. Acceptance that I didn't want that attitude. Because. The Walter. The normal world, the everyday world is a complicated place, there's all kinds of things going on.


Family and friends and mortgage payments and bills to pay and a future to worry about and retirement and savings and the kids.


Then the list goes on. But in war, that's all gone. There really isn't even a future. Nothing else matters. Nothing but the mission and the men. That was my concern. I think about my family. Sometimes. I had other things to think about. And a lot of things to worry about bullets and bombs and blood and shit and life and death. And you go through it. You get through it. Some of you do. Some of you don't.


And for those that do make it through. One day, just as quickly as it started, it's over. Get on a plane. And you fly home. Back to the world. And on that flight home. I only think about one thing. That I didn't bring home all my men. And then the door of the plane opens. And we're home. And in twenty four hours of flight time, you go from Ramadi, Iraq, to San Diego, California.


At least physically, you do. Mentally, it's going to take a little bit more time to come around. But you soon realize that you are alive. And you have a house and a wife and kids and mortgage and a future. You are alive and you are thankful. And you want to live a life that honors your friends that didn't come home, and then it's let's go, let's get it on. Let's surf and fight and drink and eat and play guitar and run and roll and surf some more.


Let's go.


Let's do this. We're lucky to even be here. Full on. For me, much of that time. The surfing and the rolling in that eating and the drinking and the jam on the get box was spent with Seth Stone.


The Delta platoon commander. He bought a house a mile away from my. He was like an uncle to my kids, part of the family. And, you know, he's a much nicer guy than me, much friendlier than me, always made friends. And before we left on deployment, he had somehow linked up with a guy by the name of Gene Cooper, legendary surfboard shaper.


Seth got Jeanne to make us some boards. Some epic bords. And when we got home, we got those boards. And we wrote them. And through Jean Seth also linked up with a guy named Mike Black that made a surf movie. If it can even be called this kind of a crazy surf movie called Invasion from Planet Sea, the sci fi surf movie it was.


It was unique. It was kind of wild and funny and insane and just kind of completely crazy, and maybe that's why we liked it, because it had some good surfing and it made us laugh. You also had some good music in it. Some real good music. One song in that movie was called Mad Man. It was by a band called The White Buffalo. And we heard the lyrics to the song. And they made they made sense to us.


There's one section of lyrics that says, like an animal out of his den, you better hide your money, you better hide your children. You can't keep your fear at bay because the mad man's roaming these streets today, the mad man's coming. We got that. We understood what that was all about. And the White Buffalo songs were in some other surf movies along the way, one called Shelter. Song called Wrong. Knew some other guys in their jail, two tours in that movie.


So Seth figured out where the rest of this music came from and we started listening to this white buffalo. Came like a little soundtrack. Because the music and the lyrics and the sound and the attitude was somehow. Somehow it was about us. But what we had seen about what we had been through. About what we were going through. I don't really I don't really remember exactly when we went and saw the white buffalo for the first time. I know that we saw him one time at UCSD in some kind of cafe and there was probably about 12 people there.


Some of the Casbah in San Diego, the belly up few times.


Eventually we saw in the bigger places like the House of Blues and the Observatory. And when you that somehow this guy. It got us. And I remember the first time we saw him at the Kasbah. It's the last time we saw him when there was a pretty small crowd. But it was a small enough crowd that everyone that was there knew who he was. There was no people wandering in. They knew they knew who the white buffalo was, and they were there to see him.


And people were drinking and people were carrying on. They were talking and laughing. And then the P.A. music faded. Then the lights went dark. And then he walked out on stage. Alone. And he played. He started strumming that guitar. Try to do right by you. To adjust to that is wrong and new. That's right over Hafey. Now, I do again agree with. And on the way back home, Megi everything. Lochiel, Massoudi.


I came in blindfolded so that I knew. Open your arms and I'll fly out of hill till. An all star summit on Shindou. It's not what you see, it's what you do. Just keep wishing you wish is a true. Your dreams here reality. There's no pain, there's no misery. You just polished the blood. But I always knew it was true. Country. I was a soldier for. It was just be too strong, you know?


No, I'm just a strange little. Home of the brave and the free, the red, white and blue I. We see it was true. And when he got done playing, the place was silent for a second, Seth and I were standing there like everybody else. Then we looked at each other, we smiled, the place went crazy. We did two. Was good night. It's good memory. And memories are all I have left of Seth now.


When those songs. Those are some powerful songs. And it's an honor today to have the man behind those memories and behind those songs. The man himself, a man named Jake Smith, otherwise known as the White Buffalo. Jake, thanks for coming down, man. Thank you for having me. No pressure on that right there.


Yeah, man, tell me about it. Yeah, it's lots of stuff wrapped up in the songs that you write. It's it's kind of crazy when I think about all the time that I spent sitting there listening and playing them, listening to them, going to your shows, you know, just being some random dude. We almost got into a fight at the belly up one time. Some guy was talking like just just Mad Dog and Seth and Seth was like six to, you know.


And, you know, I mean, I know I look like a serial killer for sure, Seth. Not quite as much because he's too nice, but still, he's a strapping dude with a shaved head and cauliflower ears. Right. That's generally not a go situation for scraps. No, that's a sign. Yeah.


So at Belly Up, we're standing there and this dude's kind of nudging in the south and says kind of looking at him and I'm standing behind the guy, which in the digital world means I can kill you. You have no you have zero chance. But it didn't happen.


But lots of memories, man. It's awesome. It's awesome to have you come down here.


Yeah. My pleasure. Let's let's talk a little bit about you, man.


Enough about me. I've been talking about myself here for a long time. Let's hear about you. All right. So you were born where? Up in Oregon? I was born in Eugene, Oregon. And what was that all about? Your parents working up there? My dad was still going to school. He's a college professor.


And he was I think he was still working on his masters at that point. And we moved down to he might have been working on the speech. And then we moved down to Southern California, Huntington Beach when I was maybe one. Huh. And he continued that at Pepperdine and did some student teaching. And then we were there for. Maybe since I was one 20 dating Malibu, yeah, we didn't live there, though. Oh, but the we live near the beach, which is now has its Yeah.


School cool too. But I mean, let's face it, if you lived in Malibu and you surf Malibu all the time, you wouldn't be here right now. I probably wouldn't hold this back. So. So you you grew up in Huntington Beach? That I did. And what was what was the situation? Your dad's a college professor at Pepperdine. Uh, no, my dad was a college professor at Cal State Dominguez Hills. Oh, I see.


So he did student teaching or finishes his PhD there and then moved on to Cal State Dominguez Hills. Carson was he teach? He taught public administration his, uh. What even is that right now? It's tough to explain, but, uh, I think it's like the study of city budgets. I think a lot of policemen take it, uh, city planners. It's like in the political science world. Now, what do you think makes a man say to themselves?


They're looking at the courses and they're like, there you go, public administration, let's call it my name. Yeah, I don't know. And it you know, I mean, he's interested by some odd things like that, but it was surprising. Not surprising, but yeah, it is. It's a one of the lesser known, you know, pedagogies, you know, it's not it's not a normal when you say what that is. Most people say when I say exactly what I said, you know, what about your mom?


Oh, she was a nurse.


She was a labor and delivery nurse. Oh, damn. Brother and a sister. You have a brother and a sister, correct? Older. Younger on the youngest. You're the baby and the baby. Was the whole thing work out, you know, that whole that whole thing. You know what we're talking about, where you're the. So now you get coddled and everything and I mean you're the spoiled kid. It's it's, it was, it was part of it definitely.


How far from the beach did you live in Huntington Beach. Um, I live we used to take the bus to go surf when I was young. Two miles. Oh, that's that's not bad.


You could teach you that all day long. Good. But we busted or got dropped off of the bus was easier than a beach cruiser.


I don't know why we bust it. You know, it's a weird uh.


Yeah, I think it was all BMX, so it just wasn't an option to have the rack and whatnot. Yeah, they did. They have them had carried on your arm back then.


Uh, I don't even know if they had the racks back there.


Now you get all kinds of racks. You're good to go BMX or not. That's true.


I think they make. And how much money. I surf quite a bit, but I just it wasn't something that I picked up super easily.


It was the age of the small, thin board where I'm going. I'm always been a big dude. And to ride, you know, CallNet leaders board.


Right? I'm on a six three and I'm six two now. And it's like it's a wafer thin thing that I can't you know, I'm sitting out in the lineup, but I'm up to my tits. Yeah. Water, and it's not going to float me. It took me a while to just go like I mean, I should probably get a bigger board, something that actually can I can paddle in the waves. Yeah, that's that's a big mental transition to this man.


My buddy Josh Hall just made me a board that's eleven six.


And it is the it's it's the thickest board I think a human could make because my son was telling him what I wanted and they were doing this like as a secret surprise for me. Right. Yeah. What's that cool secret surprise behind my back. So my son was telling him, hey, you know, and Josh had some ideas and my son's like, no, the biggest, thickest board you could possibly make. And Josh all delivered big time.


You got to try that board. I got some thick boards, too. I got a couple of what was one of mine. Looks like a paddle board, but it's not a it's a it's a surfboard for a bit for a large man. Right. We'll say. So you are. And I know you played you were freaking hardcore baseball player, right?


I was. That was kind of my dream as a child. I ended up playing college baseball Division one baseball and a scholarship to play baseball. What position did you play? Uh, until I was a senior in high school. I played shortstop. So I was on the more athletic side of especially for a big man, they thought I was going to be like the next like Cal Ripken, like, you know, and he was, you know, big.


That's a big statement you just made.


They thought I was going to be the next Cal Ripken. I mean, I don't think I don't know how many people I know, but that was it. They were grooming me for that idea. But then we actually had this young kid who came in as a shortstop, who was a sophomore or something. It was just a little phenom. And then I would go to third base where I didn't I didn't play well. I played baseball. My dad wanted my dad, like, really like sports a lot.


That's why my name is JoCo, by the way. And I didn't like sports as much as him at all. I like machine guns.


Right. So but, you know, I would get put into sports randomly. Oh, you know, go play Little League. And I was on the Braves and the echo gets into this kind of thing. But I just wasn't, you know, wasn't really wasn't really my thing. So years later, I went and talked to a professional baseball team. And when I was growing up, I remembered the baseball players. It seemed like most of the baseball players that were pros, they were like these little guys, right?


Like little Dominican guys, little Puerto Rican guys that were fast and everything. And when I went and met with this team, which was a few years ago, they were freaking monsters. They were all huge. Yeah. Oh, they're massive now. I mean, it's a whole. Is that a new thing? Yeah. I mean, if you look even if you look at, you know, footage from, you know, the 80s and early 90s, they were way smaller.


How much practice did you play? I mean, are you one of the sports was different. Like nowadays you if you're a kid and you're going to play sports, your parents are like, cool, you're going to do that sport. You're going to play it 365 days a year. You're going to you're going to get coaching. You're going to get some private whatever hitting batting coach that's come and work with you when your kids like, oh, we need a batting coach you like.


Yeah, sure. No problem. OK, here's my son. He's four.


What was it like that for you? Not so much. I mean, I did do extra stuff and I did, you know, did extra work with hitting coaches and fielding coaches. And it was definitely a big part. I mean, it was a I wanted to be a Major League Baseball player when I was a kid and my dad I come from kind of a wrestling family. My dad was a wrestler, dad. My brother was right. And but they're he's not a ball sport guy at all.


And so he was kind of always blown away by the idea, like, how did this for this child come from?


You know, that, you know, he used to say that he could he'd throw a ball at me, like when we were young, my brother's like a year and a half older than me. He could just throw a ball at me when I was like two and I would just, like, reach up and snatch it. For Greg, reflexes probably hit off my, you know, hit off my brother's chest, laying on the floor of it.


But they had you know, they were they were hard nosed guys. You know, my dad was a badass. You know what? How old were you started playing baseball?


Actually, my dad wouldn't let us play that. It was too political when I was young, just with all the bullshit.


Say, I have no idea what you're talking about. How is baseball political? I mean, what does this nineteen eighty five or something.


Yeah I, I was born in seventy four so you know it was just a lot of tension. Kids.


Oh you mean political like the the the dad with the kid. The dad.


My, the emotions of that. He thought like soccer was a better game, a better family sport, that kind of thing. So we played soccer and then he finally he budged earlier as my brother was older and we always want to play baseball. And then he I mean, it was like minor because I was like I was still quite young when I started playing.


How good was your brother at baseball? He was fast.


Talk about the freakin hammer of the strike out. I guess the balls hit him in the face when the old man threw it to him. Now, he was a wrestler. I mean, it was a different.


Oh, your brother wrestled. My brother wrestled too. Yeah, OK. He did. He wrestled. My dad wrestled in college, wrestled Oregon State under Dale Thomas and then coached some at Oregon as well as Oregon State. And my brother, he he just wrestled in high school, but he was good in high school.


Yeah. Wrestling in California high school is no joke. Yeah, he was. It's the largest wrestling tournament in the world. I think he was C.I.A. champ. I want to say my brother respects it was good props to your brother.


So at what point what was your what was you know, you're dealing with music.


It was late.


I mean, it hit me super late. I was probably I tell the story and I don't even know the actual how.


What were you listening to when you were a little kid?


We were country music fans. My parents were crazy about country and it was all country all the time in the in the station wagon. And we would go see country music concerts. It was kind of the transition time of country when it was getting not over the top cheesy.


But, you know, it was like. The Alan Jackson was coming in and it was getting a little more sticky than it was kind of these heartfelt songs of my youth, but yeah, it was all it was all country music.


It was odd for, you know, a kid to be until I really got the high school was exclusively country music listener and kind of proud of that fact.


But then I got really into punk when I was in high school. And where'd that come from? I'm not entirely sure.


There wasn't really a kid name. There was a whatever, and it was my idea to check this out.


One of my buddies who used to take me to school in the morning, he was more of a metal head and, uh, I don't know exactly how I got. And so he would listen to, you know, listen to Metallica and Danzig and Anthrax.


And, uh, and then I started listening to Punk, but I was it was more of the Southern California stuff. You know, I started kind of getting into hardcore stuff. And then that's when I got a guitar, kind of. But I was more like bad religion, circle, jerks, descendents, stuff that was a little more melodic, you know. And then I got a guitar. We go drink beers at my buddy's house and his dad would play John Prine songs and some of the quirkier kind of Dylan songs.


And I was 18, 19 maybe. And let's go get a guitar.


When you talk about music, I don't know if you think this. I think this when I was younger, like within when I met, someone shook their hands. Hey, nice to meet you. Within the first, let's say, seven to nine minutes of talking to someone, I would say, what kind of music do you like? Because it would be like a straight up indicator. It would tell you a lot about them.


And nowadays, like sometimes I meet you, I got four kids and they're all whatever, twenty, nineteen, seventeen and ten. And for a while I would say, you know, what kind of music do you like to these kids? And they're just it's so there's so much music, right. There's so much music out there that it's you know, you know, I used to get the weird avoidance answer to that question was like, oh, I listen to everything, everything.


I listen to everything. Right. And I used I used to say, OK, so to me that used to mean to me, you have no personality. You don't say, bro, I like I like Nordic death metal. However, then I know I know you. I know who you are or you know, I like the dead, OK?


I know who you are or whatever, you know, I like whatever hair metal. Leif Babin so so used to identify. Kind of like who you are, right. I mean it was even part of the fashion. Like you couldn't really like everything if you were into one thing. That's what you look like.


You had the big hair or if you were in a punk, you, you know, maybe look like a skinhead. If you were, you know, you wore the the pants.


If you were in the country. Yeah. The pants with the stitching, you know, or it's like. Yeah, not almost identifier. Yeah.


And then people nowadays there's just so much music and it's so accessible. So when I was a kid, in order to get music that we wanted to hear, we had to go to New York. Maybe we had to go to a good record store, which they just weren't all over the place. There's one in Waterbury. Good. BROSSET He gets them. But, you know, we'd go there and the but the that was part of the inhibitor.


The other part was money. Like it costs twenty one dollars for an album. And, you know, we just didn't.


So I you know, I, I love music and I had probably, I don't know, thirty albums that I just listened to over and over and over again.


You borrow one from someone and of course we got the little we got tape cassettes too. You get the dub tape cassette. Oh yeah. But even that was kind of hard to get because they would all sound like crap. Not that we really cared that much. I mean let's face it, nowadays, everybody kind of listens to everything.


There's a lot out there, not to mention the all the crossover something you got country and you got the NAS kid who's, you know, Old Town Road.


You know, they got we got a lot of crossover, is what I'm saying.


So you could you're just opening it up even wider. Even more. Oh yeah.


Now you really are listening to everything I'm saying.


Things are getting crazy, crazy too. So it's kind of upsetting now. It's not really like when I started rapping and in country they do throw you for a loop. Sometimes they're like, this is not I don't know. You're saying that's exciting? Echo doesn't seem upset, but he doesn't. I'm just observing the landscape of music at the time. At the moment that we tell you, look, EKOS a decent guy. Thank you. When when we go places, he drives, I ride.


Which means he gets control of the music situation. Yes. Which is a problem for you.


I can see how that could be so. So did you get so you said you played D1 college, so you get into college, do you get into college where you go to college? I went two years at a junior college in Huntington Beach, Golden West College, and then I did two years at St. Mary's College, which was in the East Bay in Moraga. Same league as at the time, at least, was like Pepperdine, Santa Clara, Loyola Marymount, San Diego.


What UC San Diego, you know, OK, that league. And did you. So is that when you were talking that you got a guitar or was that something high school you got to go to? It was prior to that. So probably when I was 19, probably about when I don't know if it was a summer between my senior year in high school. Oh, and college. Your dad held you back. You were old, right?


I was not. I was not a hardcore wrestling like families.


Their kids are going to school.


They're like starting they're graduating when they're twenty three years old as well. But everybody's a college professor. So I think education was it was equally, if not more important to him than than are, you know, dominance in sports and wrestling. Wrestling is crazy, man. I mean, I know. I mean, my kids wrestle and it's like it's mayhem. It's mayhem. You want to talk about political. Your dad's talking about soccer. Can't do a freaking wrestling and say dad said, go to the state championships in Bakersfield, California.


It's insane. It's awesome. I go ahead. OK, so you're so you're still in high school and you're twenty seven years old, so you're still in high school.


And that's when you go you hear, you hear a little bit of acoustic music that you go, oh yeah.


Just my friends, my friend's dad would play, we just drink beers and he would hang out and he would play just songs. And I was like, oh, it looks easy. Oh, OK. So he was playing guitar. He was playing guitar and singing himself. He was playing records, he was in spinning record. He was actually singing and playing then Sam Buelow Dam and yeah, he wrote down a few chords for me and then I was on my way and kind.


I didn't I didn't even really learn songs. I started writing songs almost immediately. Would not and not with you with the agenda to be like I'm going to be a musician and a songwriter.


I was still a baseball player.


That was still the dream, you know, and. I don't know, I just kept writing. Were you feeling any of the burn the baseball burnout out at that point? Yeah, totally. I thought I had I had to. And that fourth grade. Now, the reality of it is in high school, I was still super serious about it.


Once I hit junior college, I was less serious about it and didn't even wasn't even that great.


I don't think in that actually what happened to Cal Ripken over here, you know, I don't know.


He started smoking weed during the summer, you know, I mean, at that level, at Division one, everyone goes to Alaska or somewhere, some far off place playing summer ball all the time. And I never did that ever. I would just surf and hang out at 20th Street with my buddies and then, you know, they go and I come back from summer and they're like sheep, you know.


But yeah, it wasn't I had kind of lost the love for it a little bit, but then willing to pay for my college education. And they saw me at some all star game that I and I went off. You know, I hit like a home run and two doubles or something like that and saw that I was could move, move well for a big person. And I got a scholarship out of that.


And so I was like, well, OK, a couple more years. It's not going to hurt anybody. You know, it was actually really fun.


So so then you you so when you got your guitar, you're still in high school and you're immediately writing songs like you had that you had that thought that I kind of from my my interpretation of that thought is it's a pain to try and learn what someone else is doing.


But if I just make something up, then it's a little easier. Was there any of that there? It may have been. That's like the story of my whole existence. It's kind of just the easiest path to say, like, oh, really didn't really try that hard to be doing that, you know.


And I'm assuming you never took any lessons or anything. Now, I never did. I never took any lessons. I mean, the first song I wrote, I wrote a song with I and I knew like E Minor and and G and then wrote a song like about suicide or something like something super, but like a narrative about like some guy jumping off a building or something.


And I was like, why is it. And I wasn't even that disturbed as a child. I was like pretty, I was pretty happy. Go lucky but yeah. And he immediately started writing. What was the name of the first song. It's called The Jumper Day. Is it ever been released now?


And I can't I was trying to remember the lyrics and it's I mean, they're not they weren't as nearly as crafted as they are today, you know.


Well, you got me beat because I think the first song that my band, we had a bunch of bands when I was a kid and the the name that we've kind of that's kind of has survived is Bronson's children named after Charles Bronson. And even though we never made an album and even though we did record about 15 songs in the studio. But more important than that, we made Cool T, so we had these cool T-shirts that we have them on.


We have them on the store.


They're just a picture of Charles Bronson's face and then underneath and little kids like toddler writing. It says Bronson's children, you know, with like a backwards R type thing.


But I think the first song that I can remember was there was this weird televangelist dude that was on late night TV. His name was Dr Gene Scott.


And I remember with the big I was great. Yes, that's him.


That's him. But public access. Yeah, public access. He was kind of he was kind of like one of these people. He sort of berated the audience kind of.


Right. Right. I think it was like the gateway between like Donahue or Maury Povich or whatever or whatever that I don't know.


But anyways, we would watch them. You kind of berate his you know, you need to donate now. It was one of those things. And there's the there's the whatever. And so the first song in Bronson's children was a song called Dr. Scott Get Off the Air.


Yes. And there was a great little chorus where where it was get off the air.


And then someone was in the back would get him off the air. Get off the air. There it was. So, yeah. So you beat me, man. You're already going deep, early, dark.


Super early. Yeah.


And then so and so at some point during college. So did you play your whole four years of baseball. Yeah. Graduated in four years and played all four years. And then what would you, what did you major in or whatever history called history was my major.


Do were you think you were.


That was that was just easiest thing I said earlier. I had an inspiring teacher in junior college that made history interesting and so decided to go that path. I don't really retain much of it, but some of the time they seep into the songs and they begin a period piece, songs they'll write.


But not with the idea that I was going to be a teacher. I mean, what do you really do with it? Right?


I mean, I'm asking you that. Yeah, no, I was still like, oh, I don't know what I'm going to do, you know, now I got this guitar thing. Oh, maybe maybe I'll do that now, you know, how long did it take you to start thinking out? Man, I can maybe I could maybe make something work.


It took me a long time to even consider myself a musician. I probably had, I don't know, thirty songs under my belt and would play it. You know, I would play at the pub on campus.


How much practice did you do. Not like what. You got the guitar did you. OK, that's all.


No, I mean that's still. Well no it's still, it's still a primitive. I still have a very primitive style of playing. There's nothing I don't really dazzle anybody with, with my virtuosity.


You know, it's just like it's the vehicle for the songs and for the voice and and, you know, I know I do have my own style kind of playing because it's fairly percussive, but it's primitive, you know?


I mean, I probably break strings more than anyone, maybe ever on acoustic guitar.


You pick up the guitar and you start writing songs, you start playing songs, but you didn't you're not one of these people that, like I've known, I had friends growing up where they got obsessed. And it was they were just like learning scales and whatever the hell else you learn when you're trying to get good guitar, which I. Yeah, I never did. I never, never took lessons or never. Yeah.


And I don't it still it took me a while to go like oh this is maybe what I want to do even. And I just kept on writing songs and I started having kind of a catalog of songs so.


So when you graduate from college. Are you worried, what did you do? Did you get that a job? I waited tables. I waited tables, I went back. I live with my parents for a while to save up some money, waited tables, and then moved to San Francisco and waited tables. And then with kind of the intention that I was going to go and start hitting the clubs and trying to make some kind of a presence of my songwriting or my performance or whatever was going to be, you know.


And what did San Francisco seem like? The move for some reason?


I don't know if because it was close in proximity to where I went to to college, I'm not sure why we chose that. I think my brother had a job there that was lined up. And so we went there and lived together. I mean, my brother lived together and but it was shitty. It was not a good environment. It was when Jay started taking over almost all small clubs. What years is this is ninety eight to maybe 2002.


I live in San Francisco, probably play once a year, twice a year in the corner of some shit dive bar or like in a coffee shop, you know, smuggle some tequila and ruin the show on the second set, you know, kind of thing.


But I. Yeah. So 98 to 2002, you're up there, you're, you're playing occasionally in the back of some freakin whatever. Yeah. You know, and waiting tables to survive.


And were you, were you were you were. But this was your goal. Your goal was to be a musician at this point.




But it was loose and lazy kind of and just not not realized. I mean I used to not get gigs, I didn't have any I had shit I didn't have.


So I would make cassette tapes on my brothers through my brother's pioneer dual cassette player, right through the P.A., through the P.A. and I would record and I would lay down ten songs and then I would send them to friends and send them to family for a presence for like Christmas or or for whatever.


Right. And and and I had no press. I know.


I've heard people opened up. Oh, we got another day. Another day. Oh yeah. I you is. Things go to do shit canned. Oh that's painful. So you so you're thinking, are you thinking that's going to be a hobby.


You just think hey it's fun, I want to do it, but I'm not, I don't have the know how or maybe the drive really to really know what I'm doing. I mean my brother was my manager.


I thought he was doing shit, but we found this old tape and it had we had this little band in in in Huntington Beach, like, right when I had been playing guitar for like six months maybe. And these guys heard me singing, they're like, holy shit, like let's start a band. And they went I played bass and I played drums and we started a band called The Living Room. Right. This is right to live, but it could be started in the living room as well, you know.


So there was oh, this is silly and we're fucking terrible.


And but all said, it's a living room and then boom, no, there's no title to the whatever the the little EP thing. It's only cassettes, by the way. And. Matt Smith, my brother's name, and his is his phone number big multiple times on your cell phone. It's like it looks pretty proud of Hollywood, like just looking for that number to dial.


I feel like, wow, this guy must have a bunch of clients. So I'm still trying to figure this out. Right. You're in San Francisco. It seems like you are very persistent, but not very focused or maybe something like that. Or is it just you just didn't know what to do?


I was I was passionate about writing songs and I would keep writing songs.


So these laughable cassettes that I was creating were making their way down.


So I actually had a buddy who's in the surf industry and he was a rep for for some surf companies. And these cassette tapes started going to other people. He would give one to one and then they would make it illegal to cassette, you know, old school viral.


Right. Old school thyroidectomy ads as much as they could be. And that. But wait a second. I was going to confirm this was where in 1998 or two thousand. This is before that. Oh, this is before that when I was making the cassettes and got them out. So this was the this was when my couple junior college years, I think that I was creating these cassettes and they were kind of moving around. But I was unaware that other people were listening to them, other people were making duplicates of this.


And then I got a call from one of the guys shelter, the guy who made shelter, Chris Christie, here when I was living in San Francisco. And he said, hey, I want to use one of your songs and one of my surf films. And I was like, what? Like, how do you know you didn't know him at the time? I didn't know him. Know, oh, this was wanted. And this was one of just the cassette one to this guy.


To this guy, this guy. And then he ended up with one and one of the songs he said he wanted to use off this one of these cassettes.


And I was like, why? You know, because I was used to, you know, surf films were eres and punk and fast ass music.


And they're like he's like, you know, we're we're making this kind of more already thing. And it's just me and an acoustic guitar. It was wrong. Yeah, I was wrong was a song. And then that.


Yeah. Because that was that was like it was like a soul kind of. Yeah there was.


And there were stories, shelter flic and the Moloi brothers are all cool guys.


So, so that happens. And then all of a sudden does that give you a little back desperado like that happened. I didn't even that didn't give me the that gave me a little validation and said like, oh yeah, maybe I'm doing the right or doing something. This is maybe something to pursue harder. They asked me to come and play the all these are just you and your guitar. Oh yeah. There's no band, no band, just me solo.


And that's partially why I play guitar the way I do, because I used to just fill the space with everything, not with noodling, but just with strumming. And there's a lot of up-down and percussive stuff. And then they asked me to play the the premiere of the movie down in San Diego.


So I come down and I play whatever, 30 minutes before the movie and I see people singing along to other songs of mine from these silly cassettes.


Right. And I'm like, what is going on? What is this and shit going on in San Francisco?


My brother had gone off and was like working at the Olympics or something.


So he left San Francisco and I had this like drunk ass roommate and I packed my shit up and quit my job and then moved down to Southern California and then started kind of fresh, a little more focused, but no.


But still, you know, and then that's it was a long road, you know, a lot of couches. Then it was just couches. Then I didn't have another job.


So wait, so then you said you said I missed it. You moved to San Diego. You moved to L.A.. I moved to Orange County. To Orange County. Yeah. They'll surf industry in there. Yeah.


It was that kind of was a weird I mean for the the variety of songs I write, which many of them are quite dark or at least emotional or visceral in a way that the surf industry I thought was odd kind of place to to to pick it up and pick up, you know, go like, oh yeah.


This is you know, this might make you cry. Let's put that in a surf film. You know, it was it was an odd place to start, I thought, or at least to get a what year was it that you moved down here?


2002. OK, what year did shelter come out? Um, probably around then. OK, I bet it's that same time.


It was pretty immediate after after that happened, I was like, oh shit. I didn't just nothing was happening.


And I'd been in San Francisco for four years. Nothing was going to happen in San Francisco. You know, I wasn't I was idle. I was too idle. And I needed something to push myself. And so I needed to make a change. So you get down here, then what's the next step now? You're not you're not waiting tables anymore. Are you somehow getting by?


And hardly, though, I mean, like playing every other Wednesday at the sushi bar in SEAL Beach and playing in the corner this barbecue restaurant in Santa Ana. And just like take Jonah out tip jar making, you know, between 50 and 300 bucks a pop and sleeping on people's couches, stayed at my buddy's house for like maybe a year and a half in their guest room. That's a buddy. I mean, he's a beautiful man, Scott Marsh.


Uh, yeah.


And I'm grateful for that time because it really allowed me to I don't know, I it allowed me to at least craft what I was doing and at least get some stage time, performance time before anything was really happening.


So how long were you in that situation before? When's the first time you went into a studio and recorded not on a pioneer tape deck?


Yeah, it was after. So it was after shelter came out.


Um. Those same cassettes had got to the guy, Bob Hurley, who owns Hurley, and he paid for me to make my first album and actually made it with a surfer up in art in San Diego, Peter King. You know, I don't know. He had a home studio at his house. And I made my first album, which was hog tied like a rodeo, which I discontinued and redid at some point in my career because I wasn't totally loving how it turned out, because I was super green and had been in studio.


I only knew the pioneer, you know, I didn't know it was more than a record button. Right. Echo Charles, take my first. Right. Yeah. Playing record at the same time, playing record at the same time. There was some complications, you know. But what what happened to that album?


Like what happened that album that you felt like you lost control of it a little bit. Did they go in overproduced or something? Are they like we're going to bring in Jim, you know, Jimmy on the freaking lead guitar and get his fender in here and start cranking out? Yeah, I mean, I was raw and I liked kind of some of the rawness and it seemed to get a little too produced in a way. I would just like leave leave town.


I would go somewhere and visit some people. And then they would have musicians would come in and play on it and then they'd be like, hey, check this out and I'll be like, oh, you know it. Well, it wasn't I wasn't at the command at all. That's weird. It was out of my hands, which is normally which is that's the only time I really made that mistake, you know. But you live and you learn and in happenstance to look back and go like, you know, you discontinue.


And then you rerecorded it later, which seems like it was a moment in time. And even if I was green, I think the songs were still good. Why I rerecorded it and discontinued that other one. I don't know why, but you can fight. You try to find that one like there's some like Japanese sites and stuff that don't have that CD, which there weren't that many of them because they were just like that are like five on a box or something.


Just stupid, you know, for this. Well, and you could probably get it on the Internet, just see through it. So that's that's the first album that comes out. Does it come out? Is that the right word? Never even come out? Or was it just like, hey, we're making it work, it doesn't come out, I sell it. It shows that's a you know, we have this kind of fictitious label that Bob and this guy, Paul Gomez, make.


And it is, yeah, nothing really happens.


I'm still playing at the sushi bar doing that for and I was in that state for quite some time, you know, like two years, two years of sushi bar are sushi bar tip jar.


Then what what, what happened from there that got you away from the sushi bar.


The tip jar it was. I met I think I moved up because I met my my wife and I moved up to Los Angeles and met some people, got kind of a manager, and we went in the studio and recorded my first EP. This this is just the white buffalo. And it's yeah, it's I think it's five, six songs on that, which was super stripped down.


Now, was this who's who's paying for this, you know, who is running and who bought you studio time.


This was a my manager at the time was managing Donovan Frank and writer, OK. And I so I would open up for him. I started opening up for him and I would get some exposure doing that and met the keyboard player, this guy who actually played for the Eagles as well.


OK, Rusty, because last night he went by Couhig murder and he was kind of he had Estie whatever, but he had this like these red that's big, like ginger beard, kind of like whispy, you know, not a whole lot of hair. And I call himself cold. He was cool. It was cool.


It was his nickname Kouji McCoole murder. It says if you look if you had that epee and you looked on produced by it is produced by cool murder.


I will, I will check that out. So, so, so you record this thing.


Where are we still pre like internet whatever. MP three situations.


Yeah. Yeah we're still sales are still. Yeah. I don't know for digital. Yeah. I don't know we, I don't know if it was iTunes and that stuff had been. I don't know, I don't think so because I think they date that EP on iTunes is something way later than it actually was Jota you know.


So, so when that album comes out is it what happens is it freaking doesn't just no factor. I independently release it myself and it's just me selling it basically at shows. And I think when the digital format comes up, I get it up on there and I'm that's it. Nothing is happening. I end up doing that for a couple.


So you're in that state still and it's still a couple albums. And then I put a couple more albums out doing that in that state almost.


And well, at what point did you start to feel some forward moment? Like like I was saying earlier, man, I went and saw you at UCSD and like a little cafe and there's fifteen people in there. And I was actually like me, my wife, her friends are friends.


We're all sitting there. Yeah. And everybody I remember that and everyone's like sitting Indian style on the ground.


Yeah. Yeah. And I'm super stoked. So I'm like this is so rad, you know. I'm like, yeah.


I mean it's been just this super long haul of not too many spikes.


I mean, later, I'm starting later. I mean, it's not until I get.


You know, probably start start getting the actual TV licenses where stuff starts getting more serious and that doesn't come until what year I was still independent, didn't have I had hogtied revisited now under my belt, which is a full length album and two EPS.


And I didn't have a manager, I didn't have a booking agent, anything. And my lawyer.


Ask the music supervisor for Sons of Anarchy to do lunch and said, hey, I got this guy, I don't work. He writes murder songs and conflicted emotional songs.


You know, that that and when you were in that state, so you you're in this state like there's got to be a point.


There's got to be a thought that goes through your mind of, all right. You know, like this ain't going to work. I got to I got to figure out how I got to feed my family. I got to figure out how I'm going to get a mortgage. I got to figure out how I'm going to buy a house.


Was that thought in your mind or was it a good were you getting by enough? Were you having I mean, you obviously you love playing live, at least as far as I can tell you. Freaking love playing live. Is that a good enough time we like hey, this is a cool job right now and I'm good with it. Yeah.


I mean, it was very small means and we didn't need that money. Much money to survive really at that point. I remember I got off another surf movie, I did this one from Jason Baffour called Single Thing Yellow, and I did a, uh, a little piece of that.


And that was the first time I ever, like, wrote to picture one of the only times, actually. And I came up with that song and that idea. And then I, I, I redid it and recorded it on my first EP and made it into a more of a song.


One before was just I think they use that person that that piece like Wal-Mart called me for commercial out of know where to, I don't know, a publisher.


They thought I was the publisher and quoted me some money that you give me. I was like, holy shit, Chouchane. And I was like, Wal-Mart. I was like, no, fuck. Yeah. And then. And then. And then I want that Wal-Mart money. But then I remember I was like, oh, let me you know, I don't wanna shoot myself in the foot.


Let me pass it on to my manager at the time. Right. Who is pretty green.


He ends up getting less money so than I had negotiated initially that because that's. But still.


But it was more there was it was more money than I had ever seen. And it was like, oh, OK. Here's you know, I could have lived off that. That was more money than I'd made probably in the previous four years, you know, of doing of doing the music.


So you are getting the it's like it's like you're a you know, when you were a kid and you had some girlfriend and and like, she would break up with you, but she would string you along. Right. You know that. And people say don't string don't string people along. It's like you were getting strung along by, you know, the little carrot. I mean, the carrot that you don't want another good. I made some good tips tonight to get the big girl from Wal-Mart.


It's on like Donkey Kong. All right. So then so that was from single thing yellow, which is a kick ass movie.


They take this board and they send it around the world. A bunch of different people surf it, a bunch of different wild spots.


But this is still still you're not, you know, able to just are you able to just survive on on being a musician at this point? Yeah. And I was I had been for for a bit.


I did use my college degree for a little substitute teaching, which was hilarious and hilarious, but kind of heartbreaking at the same time.


Why do you say that? Just, you know, middle school kids are pretty dangerous, you know, a pretty confused and pissed. And so I ended up breaking up more fights than I was teaching anybody anything or, you know, I mean, I wasn't there's not much of a lesson plan often left for the substitute teacher.


So you're shooting a movie or you just trying to keep the kids safe? I'm going to say don't get they'll get thrown out the window. Is there a lesson plan? Right.


So but I didn't do that.


That that long are very, very, very often, um, when when you're in these when you're in this period of your life, I mean, the songs that you write, the music that you write, the lyrics that you write, I'm I'm projecting my thoughts onto this.


But, you know, when you're sitting working at a dive bar somewhere, playing a gig and you look over in the corner and you see this character, does that develop into, hey, you know, I know what that guy's thinking or I'm thinking about what that person's life was like to that ad. Is it good that you went through this time period of of where you were kind of struggling through and making things happen? Did you does that incorporate into your the the things you think about?


I mean, I honestly think the way that I did it was beneficial to me as a songwriter, as an artist for this long at a time that if I would have had somebody come in and go like, hey, wow, this guy, you can sing and he writes these pretty good songs, but like, we can why don't we develop this guy into something else, into a country store or something else.


And instead I was able to be 100 percent true to the songs I write, the artists that I wanted to be and never had to do anything that I didn't want to do, that always my vision and always 100 percent from me, which is super rare these days, especially. I mean, there's like, you know, the song on the radio. You got fifteen people wrote it, you know, it's like it's kind of unheard of.


And but I think that this super long haul that it's taken me and even now I'm still a little secret. You know, it's not like I'm a superstar or people know who I am. I walk down the street. It's like rare for me to get noticed. You know, I'm always kind of put off by somebody going like, hey, are you are you are you the. Oh, yeah, I am.


I'll be like, oh, you know, I like people that really like me, really like me. But most people don't know about me, you know, which I'm kind of I like.


It's a sweet spot kind of for me. I mean, I'm not making millions of dollars, but I'm doing OK.


I can survive and provide, but. I'm not. You know, I don't I can still be me do what I want to do and not not be, you know, afraid to go out in public at all, that's good.


Does so. So you were just getting to the point where I cut you off and redirected the story in a totally different direction because that was really cool. That's fine. But you're talking about the you're so you've got this manager guy and he knows the musician director from Sons of Anarchy that was actually post. So I had my first guy and I first manager. He's actually my second manager who was managing Donovan, Frank Orender, and I ended up touring with him for probably a year and a half when I was with him.


It went to Japan, went all over the world. And this was when he was he peaked when Donovan was kind of peaking.


And we were you just living the dream? It was.


I mean, they let me travel on the bus. I was like, you know, we weren't in the sushi bar anymore, you know?


Felt good, bro, just to see the world where you see in the world and you get perspectives and different, you know.


Oh, really opens your mind traveling. When I was in the SEAL teams I was on when I would be on deployment, I would know in my mind, like every day I would know that this was the best. You know, I was kind of just loving life, you know, living, you know, people say living the dream I was living the dream.


I was actually doing exactly what I always dreamed of doing for my whole life.


What's amazing seems like that's what would be, you know, you being on tour, it was I just had low I didn't have and maybe that's my and my outlook a lot of the time to kind of have low expectations and then not be really that disappointed in even when I'm not getting accolades or I'm not getting, you know, playing huge rooms or but making enough money to be OK and feel pretty OK about what I'm doing. And still being true to myself was enough.


And it's always kind of been enough for me.


OK, so you get a pretty good launch. You get a taste of the road, right?


I get a taste of the road, bro. You're there. And and then did that. When you get done touring with that tour, what's the next step?


You know, we started I don't know where we're at.


Where was I at that moment? I'm probably. The next big step is getting the Sons of Anarchy stuff for sure that that that put me in a place where now I could go well after the show, really, it was like the third season. I think they started using my stuff.


And I'm so you I once again, I just cut you off randomly and said, hey, let's take a step. So how did that come about that that you ended up on Sons of Anarchy?


No. So was my lawyer, Steve Sessa, who I still have today, invited the music supervisor to lunch and said, listen, I have this guy is an unsigned artist. Doesn't any management has anything puts on his own albums. I think he was a big fan of the show of Sons of Anarchy. And he's like, you know, the conflict in these you know, it's like the show is basically these emotional men doing kind of terrible shit, you know?


And I have a lot of that kind of conflict and some of my songs, too, that it's something that I feels like kind of a badass, but he's maybe kind of a sweetheart underneath or you feel for this guy who's really it's a murder song, you know, but you're he's kind of the hero, though, at the same time.


So it's this conflict to him was perfect for that show.


And then he he gave them gave him my whole catalog, basically, and then and not that long at all. They were like, OK, we're going to use this in the next and, you know, in three episodes or something. And but that was a slow thing as well. You know, that was they'd use us one song and then there's another song. But then they ended up using. I think seven or eight of my own songs that I thought were my own compositions that were already out there, and then they have to become and sing on stuff.


So stuff that they would create that was part of the soundtrack and just how they used music in that show. I don't know if you watched it, but it was very we do these montages at the end. That would be the song would be part of the of the story and it would just be these montages, visuals. And they would play the song at full length, at full volume, and it would be like another character. And then I think people started recognizing my voice and saying, you know, what is this?


Maybe we should go deeper, you know, into this. And at that point, we hadn't I hadn't been to Europe on my own as an artist. I'd only opened up for people. And you don't really know what kind of legs you have in places. You don't know when you don't have any history in places. And if you just open up or somebody, you don't really know if history is really just playing for their people. So then it's going better and getting better.


And we go and we got to go check out Europe. I don't know what's, you know, starting to play a bigger rooms all over the country and nobody will know.


No clubs will want to say never heard of us, you know? And I'm like, well, at least, you know, we got a festival somewhere. So we're like, OK, we we'll play this festival in Spain or something. So but we got to try to play in London and just see what tickets are like, see what happens. So we play this like a little tiny room. We're going to play like a 200 tap room that sells out like an hour.


Oh, like, oh shit. Well, they're like, what's going on? And then they like, well, let's bump up the room and then they bump it up to like 700 capacity, which was bigger than I'm playing most of the places in the States. And then that sells out another hour day and then they're like, wow, it's going on. And then that.


So we just went in, we played a couple shows in Europe and then realized, like, OK, this is a viable market. Like we can make some money over here and we have a fan base and I think almost due to the popularity of that show. You know, at that point, I signed with a label, you know, small kind of boutique label, which basically was these two guys that that were producers and engineers who produced and engineered four albums.


I just just have left now and I'm honored with it.


What made you decide to go? Why did you need you've been doing it yourself. What made you make the transition?


It was not. I didn't I never had any. Even though there wasn't much of a machine behind those other albums and still now, not really, I just wanted to get in the game, you know what I mean? I'd never been in the game, you know, and I was just like an island. I'm still kind of an island. But then I was like, I wasn't in the game, you know? And they're like, you know, I think somebody was just like, you get the game.


Like, What are you doing again on the labels, you know? You know, it wasn't like I had the how or any of the anything when I'm independently releasing things.


No, it wasn't like it was fucking six months set up to be like, all right, the album is going to come out maybe, you know, 20th and we're going to be promoting this thing for now. It was when it was done. It's a marketing plan. Look like for the next album, there was nothing.


I would just go up the wall, just put it up. It would be I'd finished something and then I would just put it up, you know, digitally and make CDs.


So. So then you signed you sign with these guys.


Is that the right terminology? Yeah. Yeah. And we did like a three album, four album deal with them. Are you the or is this all your decision making. You're the guy. Uh, yeah. I end up getting my manager. Right, when I was signing, I was looking for somebody else, I was like in between. I think I'd had like three different managers who were all I want to say hacks.


But like, they weren't they just did probably. But they weren't they weren't as professional or as right. For me. I'll just say that they weren't they weren't maybe right for me to try to get me to another plateau. And now I got Jeff Varner, who was great and and smart and political and also, though, very in my corner as far as still allowing me to have my vision and do what I want to do musically. So right, right before that, we do the deal I signed with him as well, or I bring him on as my manager.


Been with him ever since. And then so now you're officially in the game.


Now you're selling out places in Europe. But what does it look like when you get back to the states? Because it's weird. You know, it's weird how that can happen. And I got some other friends and better musicians and like overseas, they're freaking massive. And back here, there's just not not action.


I mean, it's it's crazy. And I don't even know some markets. I mean, I've never been to South America. Like, if you look on my comments, you look on any YouTube thing I have every other comment has come to Brazil or something. Brazilians that we've never been to Brazil. It's far so sketchy. Right. I don't know when we'll get there. I want to get there, you know, but we're doing better.


It's a slow build and we never go down, you know, which I appreciate. But still, in places like the South, we haven't had that much touring history, have probably done like two or three tours there.


And we're still building that it is. Is it weird? Because how do you categorize your music? That's part that's got to be an issue.


That's part of the issue. And that that's an issue with labels some of the time, too, because they don't understand it. It doesn't fit in any really category.


You know, even you have this Americana idea now and it doesn't it's not air quotes or whatever.


It just it doesn't seem I don't know, it feels like a I don't belong in that genre either. I mean, part of it does part of it's kind of this country. There's country elements, there's rock elements. There's some more aggressive, more punk stuff. There's folk stuff, there's ballads. There's you know, it's it it belongs in anything. It's organic. Yeah. And it comes from mostly it comes from three guys playing or, you know, if we put some other stuff on albums.


But it's it's we're the most stripped down band that you'll ever see really. I mean, other than if it's one guy playing guitar, I mean it's three guys with no effects.


Yeah. There's no vocal effects. There's no effects on my guitar. There's no there's no nothing. Three guys.


So that so that's an issue because you can't say, oh, there's this, you know, this other band that kind of fits in the white buffalo category. And they're we can play with these four other bands, we can do a festival or whatever, because where do you really fit at the same time, though?


But you can fit in all other little categories. There's benefits to that too, because I can play a rock festival. Yeah, I can play a country festival, you know. Yeah. Because you're kind of like your own, you know, your own little thing. Your own little genre. Yeah. I never hopefully that I have my own sound kind of, you know, which is not to mention I think you're the only person that writes murder songs.


Right. Right. At least once you could dance love songs and murder songs. Yeah I guess that's right. I've got some leaving out all my death metal brothers out there who are right. One hundred percent burgers.


You're the only one out there doing acoustic folk murder songs, even though have you ever heard what is it called, Viking folk metal.


Have you ever heard that Viking folk metal. Yes. Yes. No, they play like traditional Viking instruments, but they're playing metal. Really? Yes.


I mean, that's there's another group you could go from, like Viking blood. So that might be maybe that's my genre.


But at least you can slide in there. You can maybe do some some Viking folk metal, what do they call festivals that I mean, if they exist, you're probably somewhere in Scandinavia, right?


I'm sure there's a lot going on. So when you.


When you when you're. Do do the where do the songs come from, like the majority of them, if not all of them, come from just silence from nowhere, you know, a lot of them will be gibberish or something. They just come in out of out of being quiet and they often. I will say something or sing something and. I will recognize what the important part is or the piece of it that that has some validity or worth and expand on that.


One little idea, most of the time, summertime, I'll sing something that just I don't even know where it came from, you know, it's I can sing a whole verse and of course, not not with not with an idea that I'm going to write a song about this. I don't even know what they're about initially. And then I craft them into things that hopefully have some kind of emotional response.


So there's some level of you being on the lookout for a little nugget of goodness that you can grab on to and plant.


And I just feel lucky like that. I feel like they're lucky little diamonds that come out of the ether, you know what I mean?


And I think my gift is recognizing what those little lucky moments are to go like. Oh, let me grab that. That's a good idea. You know, and I do I, I know that I can craft something off one very small idea to realize how I can turn that into a whole concept or a whole song pretty quick.


But I don't know, I wish I had better stories about I was talking to Robert O'Keane, did a podcast with him, and he was like, well, tell me what where were you? What was, you know, was the inspiration behind this? I'm like, there's no there's no inspiration.


It's just imagined. You know, it's like imagination is the inspiration.


Yeah. But it's not in my head, I'm not like it's not there's no pre thought about it rarely. It's born in your head. It just comes from your head. Yeah, that's like the. So I was an English major in college. All that, you know. So what you're saying right now, what you're saying right now will put you on the spot. So what you're saying right now is there was these people and there was all there's all this controversy that many of you remember that.


Well, because I really don't remember that much of college. But there would be people that would say, you know, I wrote this poem just I just wrote it.


And I'm talking like classical, like real famous literature people. Oh, the word is that this person just wrote this.


It just came out and it's like they didn't have to work for it. That's kind of what you're doing.


You're just like, hey, I'm rarely I'm over here just for you. You just develop it. Nuggets of gold. I'm rarely doing that. They're rarely that easy.


But the inception of them, the beginnings of them are that easy. But some of the time it's a very small little piece of something. And it's not very rarely. Sometimes I wish I had sat down in my in my lifetime and and just something spilled out. And then there always said, there it is like a love song. No one has one kind of like that. Was it off my first EP that just kind of spilled out? And then I was like, well, that's like, what was that?


What is that about? You know, there's even a moment in the song where I'm still like, what is that even about?


You know, and and just left it in kind of you know, now I edit more stuff now, you know, and make every word perfect, as perfect as I feel like I can make it, you know, but. And then what's the deal on, you know, what do you owe, in other words, are you like, hey, I better get about another album out in another, you know, because you just you just put out your latest album, what, a few months ago?


Yeah. April, April 17th. April 17th. So now you start feeling the pressure in your head of I need to do more because I need to record another album. Do you start feel pressure in your head that you got ideas in there that need to get out? Do you not even think about it? I don't even think about it.


I don't like I, I, I'll write here and there will be little snippets in my phone, but I don't really think about it. Even this last record, who I did with Shooter Jennings produced it. That I didn't have I didn't think I had hardly any songs going into talking with him and meeting with him, and the night before we went out drinking like the first time and didn't even talk about working together, really, we just talking about life and and just get drunk.


We got drunk. So where'd you meet him?


Where where do we get drunk at or where you where to get drunk. Uh frolich room on like Hollywood. Well I mean randomly. No, no. Like I was set up.


It was like a blind date between our God. George set us up thinking that this might be a match made in heaven. But no, I went so I went in the first time to meet him to kind of show them what I'd been working on or something, you know, to develop some songs. And I was like, I don't have shit.


I feel like shit.


I woke up the night before and had an idea, sang it into my phone. And was like, OK, well, this I can show on that tomorrow and we'll work on that all day and see what happens. Well, I take that to him, I sing it to him to kind of the idea it was actually quite realised. But it's like my son was like sleeping. I had this little tiny studio fucking place for sleep, sleep, and my son's sleeping on the ceiling.




Was like, I can't even make out what I'm saying, but I'm trying to be quiet and not wake him. And I show him this thing the next day and then I sing it and we work it out in like 20 minutes. And then I already have it kind of realized.


And he's like, well, what else you have? I was like, Oh, I have this. And he's like, what's amazing? Explore that, the waters you have. And I was like, Oh, how about this? And he's like, that's yeah. Do that like explore that. And I would just and then we just went down and I was like, OK. And then after that little meeting I went on just like a I go on a little writing tares, little benders.


And then I just basically wrote the whole album in about a week, week and a half.


And before I was like, you know, I have little snippets that are coming in, you know, but then to realize and then finish them really fast sometimes and sometimes, you know, it's like God, sometimes it's out of just inspiration and desperation.


So a little pressure can maybe squeeze something out of you. Have you ever been at a point where you were feeling pressure but just nothing was coming out?


I had another album, Love in the Death of Damnation, that I remember I used to with the oil producers. I would go and I would sing, I would have all these ideas and I would come in and they were like, OK, let's explore that one. Let's let's do that. Work on that one. And a lot of them would be like everyone, but I'd have like 20 ideas, 25 ideas or something like that. Right. And for that album, I had, like, you know, it was about time to record.


And I had maybe six ideas that I played them. And they're all calling on all of them, you know? And then I was like, fuck it, let's just start Wednesday. I'm like, what are you going to do Wednesday?


I was like, I'll be ready when you're ready Wednesday. And then we just did that one like that.


But that was completely out of desperation and then hit a lucky, uh, prolific time. Little little lucky streak. Yeah.


From great album. How did you link up with with Matt and Christopher?


So Matt has been drumming. Ben was a freaking animal, by the way. He's he's a freaking animal. I mean, as far as I don't think I would be the performer I am today without Matt.


No, you guys you guys get you guys look at each other and you guys just go off. It's freakin savage. It's awesome. I mean, especially for, like, acoustic trio.


Who would you think wouldn't be terribly aggressive, you know, and he just sticks with flying and brain breaking and shards of wood or, you know, getting pulled out of dude women.


At some point I realized that you called him the machine, right? Yeah. And then I would every show I'd go to and I'd be like machine. I would get all crazy.


But I didn't like the last couple of times I've gone, other people were yelling and I was kind of disappointed. I kind of felt like, oh, that. Well, maybe you started it. I don't know, man. I just can't. I just can't. Yeah, because he just goes nuts. So. So I'm sorry. How did you link up with him?


Um, that was actually the first album I did for the Whurley guy. Hogtied like a rodeo. I've had Matt since then. No way. He wasn't on that album.


But there was a guy, Tommy Andrews, who's from San Diego as well, who was my bass player for the first 10 years of my career, played guitar on that album and knew Matt and this guy, Russell Haden, who played banjo and dobro like the most evil fucking banjo you ever heard.


And it was perfect for his creepy evil banjo. Bring it. And he's like where he wouldn't what he would like, just like Liza Minnelli and like the eyebrows. And he'd be like like like an awesome banjo player. But anyway.


But I met Matt through this guy, Tommy Andrews, and we all did it.


And it was the first time I ever felt before that I only played by myself. Yeah. I really never played and never performed. Even when I'm in the corner of any place was always by myself. And that was the first time I was like, whoa, this is what it feels like to really feel and feed off of of other people's energy and playing. And that's played with me ever since. And Christopher's been with us for maybe Matt and Christopher or like Best Buddies.


And Holly's not even it wasn't even a bass player. He's a producer and engineer. So he can play everything right. It's one of those guys. Yeah. But now he's a really good bass player. Yeah.




What's when bookit I try and explain this to people. You got to get the albums for sure and then you got to go see, you got to go see the live shows.


It's freaking insane I think.


Yeah. I mean I don't know, I mean we just go fucking go ape shit.


I mean we don't know and I just think it's very visceral in the way that we approach like it's like the last show of our lives, you know, and we do that every night.


And I don't know any other way to do it, you know, and that doesn't it, Christopher? We're just like, you know, few wild animals up there, you know, is it do you feel it? Do you feel frustration that.


You I mean, are you do you you don't have a live album? No, we don't.


Are you going to do that? Do you think it would get it done? Do you think you'd be able to capture it?


I think so. I think we could. I mean, the hardest part is really acoustic guitar. Live is a difficult thing to kind of capture that make that sound like an acoustic guitar. But, yeah, I think we could capture it live, which people ask that all the time because it is such a different animal. I mean, I think I mean, it's a high compliment when people are like, oh, it's better than the albums. You know, it's it's I think it's more of an experience.


I mean, to get people during parts of the show that, you know, the people want to fight during this time.


People are crying, you know, and you'll see. Right. You see like a military guy in a suit and a fuckin hippie in there.


And you know that some guy from some other completely different background. But somehow they found this secret band.


You know, it's like this is our band. This is my band. But, oh, it sucks, man. But that's OK. We'll forget we're in this together, bro, right?


Bikers, hippies, surfers.


I mean, it's like let's all let's all go get something right. That's freaking. Yeah, I know. It's it's awesome. If people get a chance to see that, it's like. Yeah, you got to go check it out.


Uh. Do that, what's the matador about the matador?


Yeah, Matador was that was actually the first song they used on Sons of Anarchy that but it was off of my first EP. It was already recorded, uh, Matador. I wanted to do a song, but you couldn't tell if it was a man.


Killing people or man killing or matador, and I just like that kind of loose.


A thing where you can't tell really, and I want to leave it up to the listener whether they decide, is this a man killing people in the light of day in public, in front of people, or is this or is he talking about a bullfighter? Yeah, you know, that's kind of a wild concept, kind of. And I don't know where it. Right. How about carnage?


Carnage is another dark one. That one my idea was. Some kind of warfare comes to where you live, some kind of either either it's nucular viral or something, and you have to take your family and go hide down in the basement. And it's kind of a narrative. So it starts and we all just go hide down in the basement. And I feel like the main character is kind of the father figure. And then you don't know what's happening outside.


Everyone just hiding and it just gets darker and darker and and people start kind of losing their minds. The mad man, mad man says you're going all murder songs, you know.


I just thought to myself, like, well, that's all murder song. And, you know, like you said earlier, you got the sweetest songs, you got the most romantic songs, and you've definitely provided some very nice evenings for me and my wife to hang out and have a very pleasant time. You've also provided me with, like, nice soundtracks for The Darkness.


Yeah, I mean, I love that. I mean, the thing is, I don't know why people don't dive into the fucking dark side of the pool.


You know, it's like there's some kind of jungle podcast, but there's so much, you know, in those shadowy parts like movies like that and stuff like that think that's a powerful, primal thing that I think it's cool that that should be explored.


I think I'm lucky that I can sing in the way I can, that I can be tender at some moments when I when I love song or I have something that needs to be. And then on the other side of the hand that to be more aggressive and loud and howling. But the other mad madman's another just serial killer kind of murder song that it's just like you you can't he's undeniable. He's just all powerful and he's coming after you. It's just scary.


You know, I never I never have thought about the fact that you write murder songs before until you said it today. I was like, oh, yeah, that's that's the whole thing. There's a bunch of those murder songs. Every album at least has at least one. Yeah. I mean, I'm looking at my list. I'm like, oh yeah. Yeah that's that's all. Yeah. Oh, darling, what have I done. Oh yeah.


That's, that's an absolute freak. That one's fucking twisted. Oh totally. That one.


That was about a man who thinks and I mean I come up with this bullshit but like how he thinks in order to get the affection of his woman and that he starts killing people and collecting basically collecting these lives in these killing these people is like a sign of like the ultimate gift to give to this woman, kind of in his mind, thinking that she's going he's going to win his her affection due to whatever the solution.


How about the pilot?


Uh, the pilot feels like I love this song, The High Women by Jimmy Webb. Yeah. And it wasn't it wasn't off that song.


But it's it's that one's just kind of just about kicking ass like like kicking ass and taking names.


Right. That part. That's part of it. That's Yeah.


I mean that ones. I like how it starts.


You know, you start with the pilot and basically it's kind of just sets of sets the table for just a pilot and then it goes fighter pilot, then it goes outlaw. And then it's just like, what is it? The one. Yeah. Kicking ass, taking a town to town, killing dreams.


Yes, man. You know, he did the album with the Joey White theme throughout it. And that's so that's that's like a what is it, a rock opera. What is it, is it a concept album I guess is what we call it. Yeah, I think we've got this whole story, this whole thread of.


Of a couple. Yeah, right, and, you know, it sounds like they meet when they're young, you got some freaking great lines, man, just great, great stuff. What made you decide to go, hey, I'm going to concept album. I've always wanted to I mean, I always look at my songs as little movies, little mini movies and the idea of building a whole narrative. Around those linking those also, it's it's a linear thing, which I don't even know most concept albums seem really loose, like even if you listen to the dark side of the Moon or something, that's not like you jump from one thing to another, you know, and that's this guy's whole road.


I don't know.


I've always been fascinated by war and soldiers and people going off to war and then coming back and all this thing. And it's so I had some songs already and I was like, and I want to do a concept album. And then I said, oh, and I do it now. And I thought, oh, I could put this song here. Or this kind of start changing names, put this song over here and then build this whole arc of this guy's lifetime, you know, it's basically a love story.


I think it's a love story, but it's, you know, starts a white buffalo kind of way, right. In a murder, it's sort of in a dark, a dark thing. So they start off, they meet each other, they fall in love. But it's kind of this forbidden love. And so they have to go leave that small town they're from. And he finds out pretty quickly that he cannot provide for his family. So he joins the military, goes off to war or kills, feels like kind of a killing machine and then comes back still kind of bloodthirsty and and and not assimilating kills again at home.


And and then it's got Skewes back into a love story, kind of. Or at least that's his road to redemption kind of an idea that and the one thing is the power of love with the power of his woman is what makes him feel human or halfway human again. And it basically goes the whole arc to his life. At the end, he's he's going to die and he's kind of questioning God and wondering, after all this bad shit I've done in my life, like, am I in there?


Or you go up there, you know, just still kind of confused and conflicted, but.


Trying to figure out, I mean, freaking all all this great stuff, man, wherever you're getting it from, I hope those little magic nuggets that go into your brain help or enter your brain or are produced in your brain. I hope they just freakin keep on coming, man. Hey, did your son play lead guitar for you one time at House of Blues? He did many times.


OK, well, I mean, my oldest son, Tanner, who is we've tried to add the fourth guy sometimes, you know, we've always like this power trio kind of thing or with an acoustic guitar is ridiculous, really, but, uh.


We would try to add a fourth guy, but it always felt like it kind of took away from I mean, all we were kind of dynamics, you know, that we get really big and we get really quiet and we get really big.


And with three, that seems to work really well. And you add another thing. But Tanner is when he said it's on his game and at his best has been maybe my favorite fourth kind of ever during it. Yeah, he's an animal. Right.


And so what's what's up next? What the future holds. That's a weird time.


I mean, you know, it's like I had an album come come out during this, you know, Cona covid and the pandemic and touring stopped.


We had. I mean, a shitload of shows, you know, shows going all of 2020 and beyond. You know, we were going to go all the way around the world, all over the world, you know, at these places that we'd have some history. And it's just that just I'll stop that. I'll dried up. And so there's nothing that's all being postponed to hopefully when we do it. I mean, our first tour that we were going to do in April, that's going to be a whole year.


We're going to go back to Europe in April and then hopefully stuff will start opening up. But I don't know, really.


The future is. Is is unknown, for sure, to say the least, but, yeah, I mean, I'm going to continue. I was really proud of this this, you know, recent piece of work that I did, which almost was going to start out as a concept as well. What was the concept going to be?


This one was one time we were we're touring, traveling. We're on the eastern seaboard. And I keep seeing these these rooftop decks up on top of these kind of Victorian houses. And I'm like, what are those? You know? And the drummer was like, oh, those are called widow's walks. And those are the wives or significant others of captains and whatever fishermen, whalers or stuff. You know, they would their husbands would leave and go do their jobs, but not return for many months or many weeks.


And the wives would go up kind of scouting, looking, longing for their husbands to come home. And I just thought, like, oh, that's right.


You got it. It's all right there, right? I mean, you have the romance. You have the drama.


You have the the sea, the power, you know, and just the story was already there.


I was like us going to be easy. And so I started writing some of those, which is a song called Widow's Walk. There's another one, Sycamore that made the album. There's a couple that are still on there. But then I had these other songs that I was like, because confining, you know, if you're like especially when I think of a concept album as a narrative to be like, oh, well, there's this song about the fires in California in twenty eighteen or this song about that wouldn't really fit in the construct of that.


So I kind of abandoned the idea without. Not entirely. Some of the songs made it and then inadvertently other songs would have other angles, angles and concepts and water and longing and lost loves and all kinds of stuff that ended up kind of getting into there and being part of the writing. But looser, you know.


Well, it's a free it's another another great album. And, you know, I always talk about there's there's not too many bands, in my opinion, that can do five awesome albums in a row like Black Sabbath. They did it. Zeppelin, they did it. Metallica close, but they did it right. There's not too many bands that can do five awesome albums in a row. And part of it is, I think what you said earlier, you know, you were at this level where, you know, if if you would have done that first demo and gotten picked up by whatever big record company and had a big boss and then all this nice stuff, and you probably didn't you probably wouldn't squeeze out even two more good albums.


But, man, you were there and and you're knocking out every album that you don't know what number you're on right now, but it's it's more than five. And you're still freaking putting out awesome work. And I don't know what the future holds, but I do know this. When you're back on the road, we will be there. Well, thank you kindly.


You got any last thoughts, man? No, I just appreciate you.


I appreciate you. You know, I appreciate that. I'm a part of so many people's lives and often in terrible parts of their lives that that I get people coming up to me saying how I helped them through this moment of divorce or being in the military or death of somebody super close to them.


And I'm proud to be that, you know, for a while it's odd because I'm actually not that serious of a dude. You know, I'm pretty like if you went drinking with me, like that guy, really, you know, and but I guess there's like a Jekyll and Hyde thing, right.


Kind of is you might do these silly episodes, these things called in the garage and everything. That's shit. Yeah. So I do. It's just me and my garage and I'd make some stupid entrance where I'm spinning and twirling or something and then I kind of bullshit for two, three, five minutes about nothing. I'm just kind of rambling and then. But it's kind of comedic and then then I just go on to something probably dark and heavy, some song that I had that's in my catalog and I'll play a song and then that's it.


But it is kind of a duality of my persona or my not my persona, just who I am that there's but it's just like everything, I suppose, you know. Laughter And there's love and there's, you know, different sides of the coin. There's the light in the dark. And so. I have that, I explore that, and I explore that in music as well. Well, thanks for taking us on the road with you down that down that path.


Like I said, look, I know I'm coming out dark because that's sort of that's sort of where I tend to go. But, man, there's, you know, a bunch of beautiful songs on there. The best music for you can apply to just about every part of your life.


So thanks for coming on, man. Friggin awesome. Thank you for having me.


Do you think maybe take it out with one more jam since you've got it something off the new album?


Yeah. This is nothing new album. This one's called No History. Yeah.


Get some. I threw my dreams in wishing well. It seems they all get lost in time. Tom, don't fight fair. It's simply will I myself. A different story, one that's filled with twists and turns in life, is on fire where I might get burned. YouTube confirms that there was belove for every. Memories come crashing in, living in the passes away. Still alive. You can rewind. What have morning never comes your tomorrows out of date.


They're all gonna go. When nobody knows, I feel in the future comes the. Boom. Awesome man, thanks for coming down, brother. My pleasure. Thank you for having me. And with that, Jake, the White Buffalo Smith has left the building, by the way, I forgot to mention this, you can find him on the interweb at the White Buffalo dot com on Facebook at the white buffalo. Instagram buffa loco. Buffalo, go maybe crazy Buffalo, is it I think you faiello c0 buffalo go, yes, Twitter blanko buffalo, that's all in there.


Right. So and then YouTube. There's also a YouTube channel, the White Buffalo. He puts out a little video. He was talking about. That's that man awesome to have him down. Jake, thanks for coming down and Echo. There is some darkness, yeah, and some light in the world.


It is true.


I think it was interesting to come. And, you know, for for those of us that didn't go because you mentioned White Buffalo Mallott.


The buffalo blanko you mentioned them from time to time, so those of us that didn't go deep into, you know, the exploring like who this was that you'd mentioned from time to time, it was good to kind of bring them to like I understand now. Yeah.


Can of kind of recognize. I recognize. Kind of recognize, don't you. Yeah.


At what point at what point did you go down before we started recording and he was sort of sorting out as I was like looking actually when he rolled in. And you know, when someone starts talking, especially a big guy like him, I think they start talking like, oh, you have a singing voice right now. Maybe the tone is that, you know why, though? I think because, you know, like I used to when I used to make like more like how should I say, like narrative type videos?


And yes, I would hire a lot of voiceover people. And I did some voiceovers for x Ray Charles, sir.




So a lot of these professional voiceover people like you listen to their demo or some some of the guys, like I call up on the phone and when they answer the phone, I'm like, I see what you're working with.


They're already just them talking. One guy, one guy.


I was like, he put on you could tell he put it on to answer because like, hello, you're like, yeah, I'm looking for Mike Jacobs, the voice actor.


And he's like, one second, please.


Hello. Yeah, actually, that's essentially what happened. Except he just out the gate. He was he was performing. He was he was auditioning straight out on his own. But the thing is, I emailed him so he knew I was going to call. So of course.


But nonetheless, when I heard Jake talk, I was like, oh, it hit me like, OK, I see you.


And they had some pipes. Yes, sir.


And that's why I was going to ask them, like, so he couldn't take any voice lessons or anything.


But you just gotta get the talent out of the gate just good yet.


So, uh, yes. So is at that point I think is when it started to hit me and then yeah. The first song was really, really good and then the second song was really, really good.


That's that's just the absolute tip of the iceberg. Man to gold all throughout those albums. Man.


Yeah. Logit I'm looking into it. Well there's darkness in the world as we heard. Yes, it's true. Also some light.


Yes, we talk about the darkness, but we want to move towards the light we got. How can we move towards the light is always be moving towards the light.


You got to embrace the darkness every once in a while. But at the end of the day, you want to just hang out in darkness all the time.


That's why we're writing songs called Carnage. Yeah, check in.


So what are we doing? Keeping ourselves capable as opposed to incapable? We are keeping ourselves healthy, which allows us to be capable. Which allows us to get out of the darkness if need be. So this is what we're doing. We're working out. We're reading. You read a lot, I read way more than I did before. I just talked to somebody I think is Derek Cooper about like I didn't grow up just oh, there's a book.


Let me start reading books. Yeah, but now I'm sort of like that. Like, oh, that looks like.


Yeah. Well, he said, where'd you grow up. You said Coyte. He said I wouldn't narathiwat more stuff to do with you. That was a good point Gurcharan. Not that San Diego sucks though.


I think I'm just more mature and understand the value more.


You know how like when you read a lot of time, it's like I'm reading, you know, I guess as far as far as reading goes, anyway, we're doing a lot of stuff to keep ourselves people look through.


OK, let's go back to working out through workouts. Our bodies take a beating.


It's the nature of working out really true. You workout, take a beating. True. Then you recover from that beating. Those are called gains.


And we want to perpetuate gains, but you've got to perpetuate leadings as well.


So through leadings are the darkness, the gains or the light of the light?


Exactly right. Exactly. Exactly right. Anyway, so your joints will take a beating. So no worries. We got some good supplementation for those joints and for other stuff, so JoCo feel is they line up high quality tip top, top tier.


Quality. Supplementation, no joint warfare joints. Keep your keep your joints in the game, 100 percent super krill oil.


Same deal, some antioxidants, and they're too healthy for a healthy situation to grill oil.


Vitamin D and I'm going on the line, not in particular order. I'm going down the line in the order that I take them straight up every single morning, by the way, back on the discipline, disciplined routine. Thanks for the suggestion to you anyway. OK, vitamin D immunity, keep the immunity up. Also, Cold War for immunity. These are critical in staying in the game, and if you don't believe me, try not take them.


I don't try not to take them, but I'm just saying, theoretically, if you want to test EKOS theories.


Yeah, go ahead and try it. We don't recommend it. Yeah. Especially if you took them for a long time, then stopped taking them. That's when you get you see, you know, it's kind of like it's kind of like if you stop drinking, if you've been doing for a long time, you stop drinking how like how much energy you have the next day. It's kind of like that.


I mean, you know, in a manner of speaking anyway, you know what I'm talking about.


Also, discipline, the supplement, OK?


It's like a whole thing. It is multiple choices. Yes, multiple choice.


Wait, what is discipline? Yes.


Because you can have discipline. Pills, capsules, you can have despond powder and you can have discipline in the cans. Yes, the whole line of discipline is true and it's sorted itself out and it makes sense to be like, OK, so this one part I take pretty much every day.


Pretty much. Think before work out.


That's mainly the thing. But if I don't work out that day, just take it in the morning, boom. Kind of get off to a good sort of start.


You know, the can I use it as essentially an energy drink except for you don't feel like junk.


Yeah. And it's like more refreshing than an energy drink. So it's kind of like a like a I don't know, a refreshing energy drink.


OK, multiple flavors, by the way.


Um, and then the pills, that's sort of like on the go. I only took the pills one time.


It's really. Yeah. Does taking the pills many times. Yeah. It hasn't rolled into my routine as seamlessly as maybe in your situation. I used to get that little Whitter you know, to get that little later. Boy I would imagine so yes. But Jacobite.


We got that as well. We also got Molk. So look, you need supplementation. We talked about we talk about the gains being the light. Well, you need something to build the light with. It's true from a physics point of view. When you want to make gains, you need protein. You might as well protein that tastes like a dessert.


You get yourself some milk. Yeah, it's true. So my son is for help before this month goes into the closet.


This was not yesterday. The day before. Before he goes into the closet, gets the peanut butter milk, not the kid or your kid one. He says, can we make some milkshakes straight up?


Isn't it awesome that your son wants something as much as you want him to have it? Yes. Here, go. Like how often you get to say to your kid, yes, they're begging you to do something that's going to make them healthier, stronger and a better person. Yeah, exactly right.


Go have some milk. I'll make I'll make all the milk you want.


How's that sound for Eric? It's like them asking you, hey, can I go outside and do some push ups? Like, do you mind if I do that?


Do you mind if I go outside and do a bunch of Aikau bodybuilder's just to get some?


And you're like, absolutely. Can I have some milk? Yes, you can. It's the same. You mix it up for you. Let me throw it in the blender, throw it in the shaker and just make one up for you.


Yeah, exactly right.


It's like, OK, you know how we play, you know where we want to be playing. We want to be playing the long game. So to cheat strategic over tactical.




So every once in a while and I've said this before, it's true. Every once in a while you get one of those.


Golden diamond nuggets, that is beneficial. Short term and long term, they're rare, they're not every day, they're not every day at every corner. They're not they're rare, but they're there.


And Molk is one of straight up one of them salmon. Sashimi is another one. That's my opinion. Dr. White, did we say. Well, you mentioned it. Sure. Certified organic, refreshing duck white in the tea bags and in cans, too.


By the way, my wife is on those on that kick still for the last like you get this stuff at Origin, Maine Dotcom, or you can get it at a vitamin shop around the corner. Yes. The vitamin shop around the corner. You have to wait.


Go get some strew speaking Orjan mean dockum other stuff on there, notably jeans, American made denim straight up from the fabric that is fabricated.


Genes are available, t shirts are available, boogie's are available.


Rash guards are available, anything that you basically you need to cover your body boots, you need to cover your body, otherwise it's going to get scraped, it's going to get cold and you're going to be naked.


Yeah, which is not good. That's in many cases.


So get some clothes, get some American made clothes, get some American made clothes that are functional, functional.


And that's where my judgment stops.


You have to judge the other parts you see.


Speaking of clothes and representing and wearing things, JoCo has a store straight up represent on the path.


T shirts, discipline, discipline equals freedom, discipline equals freedom, and it does, by the way, in case you didn't know.


Shirts, hoodies, hats, beanies, you know, hardcore Secondo t shirts, hardcore Secondo t shirts, one of a kind that I happen to be wearing right now, wearing right now, totally legit.


Oh, big time.


I haven't I just got this one a week ago. Yeah. And so I've worn it maybe two, three times, two of which we were recording, not going. I don't really go out in public that much, but no one's recognized that you when you go out.


Well, you know, the moment someone recognizes this shirt, that's going to be a level of respect that's a little bit above the normal level of respect.


I got to be you got to be in the game and on the path. Yes, sir. The board with that.


Also, what else on there, anyway? A lot of good stuff I was going to mention. Yes. Shorts, board, shorts, functional. I'm going to do a whole thing. I might even make a video about the shorts because they're good, they're functional and look good and they're like double functional board shorts.


They are you. That sounds like a marketing campaign. Double functional. They are nonetheless. JoCo store Dotcom this week.


You can also get some more of your kids up there, right? Yes, sir. You can wear your kids, so go get some of that. Also, subscribe to this podcast if you haven't yet, which if you haven't yet, maybe you shouldn't.


Maybe you should just move on with your life.


I don't know. We review whatever. We also have some other podcast. We have the JoCo Unravelling podcast, which used to be called The Thread. It's back. It's in its full glory. We have we rereleased or we are rereleasing the threads that were removed. Now we have the unraveling. We have some new unraveling coming right now.


They're out. Yeah. Grounded podcast.


Haven't done one of those in a little while.


We owe you or your kid podcast. Haven't done one of those. We owe you, but, you know, there's a lot of lessons you need to hear multiple times kids, so jump on them. We also have a YouTube channel where Echo takes and he enhances some videos, especially if it's a video that's very short and you could easily pay attention to. Then he puts a bunch of enhancement in there to make sure you can watch it for two minutes in 30 seconds.


But when he does a three hour video, he doesn't put any enhancements in there.


It's just a plain black and white video of two heads or three heads, people talking.


And for some reason, that's the way it goes, organized it, which is his call, you know.


But if you want to see what Jake Smith, the White Buffalo looks like, if you want to figure out why they call the white buffalo, because he kind of represents that point both, you know, in a visual kind of way.


Sir, come and check it out. Subscribe to the YouTube, the YouTube channel hit like smash the like.


But I don't think people I wore out that joke a few months ago. Well, the smash. The Smash.


The Subscribe. Yeah. Like comment and subscribe. That's so weird. Yeah.


There's a new one out there of their new way of saying a new trend.


They say hit the like button and leave a comment to help out the algorithm.


Something along those lines is like an algorithm that if it has like an inner engagement or whatever interactions or whatever, it's sort of like, oh, this is a significant video. So let's sort of sort of push it or whatever.


OK, well, we're not doing this big campaign to get you to fix the algorithm. You know what? If you like the videos, watch them. Subscribe to the YouTube channel, check it out that way, Echo can get in your head with his little videos.


Yeah, it won't be Meggan in your head, though, obviously. I don't think we know who and who said nonetheless.


Yes, YouTube video version. All good people are agreeing with me. I think you don't put a fix on a podcast or on this particular podcast, but I'm not talking a massive I'm talking an occasional little Easter egg rolling.


And maybe if something blows up over there and just smoke, maybe there's smoke, some smoke coming out of Jake's guitar.


Oh, yeah, OK. I think that's if there's one thing that doesn't need it effects it's Jake need it effects to do. It could be cool. I don't know. Still nonetheless. Yes.


YouTube also psychological warfare. It's an album not like White Buffalo album. No different.


More like we'll just call it psychological warfare for now.


So what it is, it's a spoken word album.


Yes. Spoken word. Yeah. And those words are speaking to you on your moments of weakness. So if you're about to skip the workout. But I came close to skipping workout, too, by the way, yesterday.


That's why you're looking skinny and everything. You know from that.


Anyway, almost think if I'm annoyed while we're doing this right now, do you think everyone's annoyed or is it just me? It's very possible. Yeah, it's very possible that everyone's annoyed.


But nonetheless, I think this is a moment of value, in my opinion, about skip the workout I've listened to. So I didn't listen to psychological warfare. So yesterday. You know, I didn't have to listen to it so many times before when I really needed it, that it was like it was sort of in the Rolodex back sort of plane.


So I listen to it virtually in my mind. And you did the work, I did the work Australia. That's awesome, man, good job. Yeah, but I do look at too. I do play that game, that one that you play or work to.


We were talking about that. It's like, hey, if you have those moments of like oh yeah.


Like then I really should hurry up and get to what I was going to do.


You know, anything, any excuse you come up with your head that you're going to skip the last part of the work out of the work out. You punish yourself with extra work, you know, for even thinking that I play that game 100 percent, Jack.


Also, if you want to have a visual representation to kind of keep you squared away, go to flip side canvas dotcom by my brother Dakota Meyer, making cool graphical art to hang on your wall.


Graphical shrinkwrap also, you know, pick up some of Jake's music, you know, go.


Download the music or order it or whatever, however you're going to get that music, go get it, man. Go get it. Jake's out there making it happen.


Also got some books, the code, the evaluation, the protocols, leadership strategy and Tactics.


Field Manual, where your kid one, two and three, Mikey and the dragon's discipline goes Freedom Field Manual, extreme ownership and the dichotomy of leadership.


Take up some of those books if you like. What we talk about on here also have a leadership consultancy called Echelon Front. If you need help with leadership inside your organization, go to Echelon front dotcom.


If you want to get engaged in the online brigade that we have where I talk about leadership, I interact.


You want to ask me a question? You're thinking, oh, I wish I could ask JoCo question. You can you can literally come on there and ask me a question, doing two to three times a week, I'm on their live interaction, go to F online. Dot com leadership is not something that you just get and now you're good.


And you know what? Maybe you want to maybe you want to ask me about jujitsu. Maybe you want to ask me about some relationship that you're in. Whatever you want to ask me, come and ask me.


If online dotcom, we have the monster, the next monster is in Phoenix, Arizona, September 16th and 17th. Then we're going be in Dallas, Texas, December 3rd and 4th, go to extreme ownership dotcom for details. We've sold out all these things that we've done. These ones are less seating because of social distancing. So they're going to sell it even quicker. We have f overwatch.


If you need leadership inside your organization, you want experienced leadership, go to EAF, overwatched dotcom, where we have candidates that are proven leaders from the military that understand the principles we talk about.


Go there and hire someone if overwatched, dot com. We also have America's Mighty Warriors dot org, that is my family, Mark Leigh's mom, who is on a mission to do good, to help service members, to help their families, to help gold star families, to help people that are deployed around the world.


If you want to get involved or donate, go to America's Mighty Warriors dot org.


And if you enjoy overdoing things and you want to hear my more of my conspicuous questions or you feel like you just can't live without a little bit more of EKOS illogical enquiry's that you could find us on the interweb, on Twitter, on Instagram and on the Facebook echo that echo. Charles and I am at JoCo Willing and Jake, the white buffalo can be found on the interweb that the white buffalo dot com Facebook, the white Buffalo, Instagram, Buffalo, go Twitter blanko Buffalo.


And his YouTube channel is the White Buffalo. And thanks again. To Jake for coming on the show, for sharing your vision, your voice with us. Thanks for taking care of our veterans. And thanks for having the soundtrack to my life and to all the veterans out there.


Thanks for stepping up into the madness, into the darkness. And thanks for not backing down. And to the police and law enforcement and firefighters and paramedics and EMTs and dispatchers and correctional officers and Border Patrol and Secret Service and all the first responders out there. Thanks for keeping the darkness at bay on the home front.


And everyone else out there, the words from a white Buffalo song called When I'm Gone, he says, I feel it closing in on me. I got to be all I can be in this life. There ain't no guarantee you don't get no shit for free. What does that mean? It means you got to get out there. And get after it and until next time, this is Echo and JoCo.