The following is a conversation with Michael Malis, anarchist and author of Dear Reader, The New Write, The anarchist Handbook, The White Pill, and he is the host of the podcast. You're welcome. This is a Thanksgiving special of The Pirate.

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Cool it down on each side of the bed separately. Check it out and get special savings when you go to eightsleep. Com/lex. This is the Lex Friedmann podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. Now, dear friends, here's Michael Malice. I'm wondering what's in it.

The box? Yeah.

The mystery box. I'm wondering what's in it.

There's something in that box of exquisite beauty, both literally and in what it symbolizes and why it is here.

Given the human being you are, I'm terrified at what you find beautiful.

That's a good point. You hit me with a curveball. Yeah. Like, for me, the most beautiful wildlife are what I call God's mistakes. Because my friend came up with that term where she's like, God made these disgusting animals just threw in the bottom of the ocean. He's like, No one's ever going to see this.

Yeah, you commented on Twitter about some creature, like a rainbow type creature.

The peacock, Mantis shrimp.

Yeah, it's beautiful.

It's horrific, though. So it has, I think, eight legs, six arms, two punching claws or spearing claws, depending on the genus, two eyes, two antennae, two ear flaps. I don't know what they do. And its punch can be as strong as a bullet. And the other type with the spears, divers call them thumb splitters, because if you stick your finger near it, it'll cut your thumb down to the bone. So I had one as a pet all night. I would hear bang on the PVC pipe. I got to tell you, they have the best eyesight of any animal because they see in seven different ways. When you make eye contact with this thing, it's just absolutely terrifying. But you can eat them as sushi. They call them sea centipedes.

But they're colorful and beautiful.

That's species is, yeah.

What was it like having one as a pet? And why.

Did you do it?

Well, when you have a species that's that unique and that much of an outlier, growing up reading these books, watching these shows, I found this stuff so much more fascinating than space, which is dead. So to be able to have this specimen in your house and just observe its behavior is just like an amazing thing.

Why did you get rid of it?

I didn't have, I guess, the right minerals in the mix. It died. Because it had a problem of malting once. Yeah, they couldn't mold correctly.

You miss it? Think about it still?

I do think about it, to be honest. I still have a pair of its punching appendages from When It Malted.

What pet animal in your life do you.

Miss the most?

That has been in your life that you think about?

I've never had cats or dogs growing up or anything like that, which I... Oh, God. My problem is- Here.

We go.

-if I like something, I will go down a rabbit hole. Yeah. So I know if I got one tattoo, I already know my first five are going to be okay. So I can't do it because then once I get those five, it's going to be a hundred and I'm already too old to be the.

Tattoo guy. What would be the first tattoo?

My.

Face? Would it go on your ass cheeks or where would you put them? If it was my face.

If I got your face, it would definitely be on my.

Right here. If you had multiple faces.

Would you put like - I think delts, right? Shoulders, different faces.

And different shoulders. And then when you flex -.

And then when you flex - Yeah.

Would you get a dictator? If you had to get a.

Dictator, who would you get? We have to get Kim, John, Yell, right? Because I wrote the book on him.

Oh, it's like plugging your book.

I don't think plugging. It's just like I have a personal connection to this stuff.

Good opener, this conversation. We would be asking, Why him? And he'd be like, Well, I wrote a book about it. I'd be like, Oh, okay.

Let me check it out. That would be a bad... No, that's not what happens. Here's the thing. What happens? When you write a book about North... Hey, nice to meet you. What is it you do? I'm an author. What books do you write? Well, my last book was at North Korea. 90 % of the time, 90, they will then start telling me everything they know about North Korea. It's like, This isn't a quiz, and it's a very poorly understood country. I don't expect you to know anything. You're not on the spot. And half what you're saying is not accurate either. It's fine.

How often did they bring up Dennis Rodman?

100%. 100% of the time. Oh, you see, do you know Dennis Rodman? Yeah. But I don't understand what... I guess people feel the need to like, all right, now we're talking about this subject. I just got to drop whatever I can talk about. It's usually a small amount. And there's this thing in the culture, which I hate that everyone has to have an opinion on everything. And it's okay to be like, Yeah, I don't know anything about that. Tell me more. There's lots of things I don't know anything about.

What's your opinion on my bird here? Mr. Parrot?

It's a macaw. Scarlet macaw.

What?

It is a scarlet macaw.

Oh, you know birds.

Yeah. That's actually not life-sized.

Are you saying he's not real?

I'm saying it's not to scale. Okay, but.

He's real.

Are we doing that Monty Python sketch?

Everything is a Monty.

Python sketch. I don't think Monty Python is funny. You don't? At all.

That explains so much. Does it? What does it explain? What do you think is funny?

You're not answering that question. It's pretty funny.

Yeah. What do you think is funny? Having a Menta shrimp?

No.

Do you think Big Labowski is funny?

Oh, God, no.

Although- This is getting.

Worse and worse. -to be fair. Yep. I only tried to watch Big Labowski after it's been part of the culture for many years, to the point where every single line has been quoted incessantly by the most annoying Fratbroes ever. So I have been poisoned to be able to appreciate it. So maybe if I'd seen it when it came out before it became a thing, I would have enjoyed it. I couldn't get through it. I couldn't get through 20 minutes.

Is that how you feel, Boshen? In your search list?

Well.

It's so much easier for me to stare at you when you have sunglasses on.

I didn't think you'd be the one making Holocaust jokes today, and yet here we are.

And cut scene. I actually have no trouble making eye contact with you when you're wearing shades.

Yes, because you're a robot.

Two copies of myself.

Yeah. Are you seeing yourself in them? Mm-hmm. Okay, cool.

I'm having a conversation with myself. It's not your fault, Lex.

They made you like this. You were just a good little robot in St. Petersburg.

I could see Mr. Parrot a little bit, too.

What do you find funny? Come on. This is an interesting subject.

Well, I have a find of Mindy Python. I find absurdity funny.

Yes, I find absurdity funny. I think that's the thing. When people come at me, and maybe this is an Eastern European thing, when they're like, How can you find this very dark subject funny? It's like, well, first of all, the humor is that you're making fun of something that's dark. Already it's absurd. It's completely inappropriate. Second, just psychologically, Joan Rivers said that Winston Churchill said, I don't know if it's true, that when you make people laugh, you're giving them a little vacation. I was just thinking about this the other day, how when I die if I want my funeral to be a roast. It doesn't help me that everyone's sad. If I brought people happiness or joy in life, whatever, I want to keep doing that in death. Your sadness doesn't help me. I know you can't help it, but tell stories of how it made you laugh, make fun of me, make me the punching bag, even literally take me out of that coffin and make me a pinata. I don't care. I don't understand. Well, I do understand, but it's sad for me when people are like, This isn't funny. That isn't funny.

The way I look at humor is the way it's like a chef, right? It's pretty easy to make bacon taste good, but some of these really obscure ingredients to make it palatable, that's take skill. So if you're dealing with a subject that is very emotional or intense and you can make people laugh, then that takes skill and that's the relief for them.

Yeah, it's all about timing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What's the different? You want to hear one of my jokes?

Is it a pirate joke? Because that's the only kind I accept today. But no, go ahead. It doesn't have to be a pirate joke. It's one time.

Do you know who Thomas is?

Yeah.

What's there between Lea Thomas and Hitler?

What?

Lea Thomas knows how to finish a race.

Very nice. Did I.

Just.

Get the gold medal? Good job. Well, why does it take pirates forever to get through the Alphabet?

Why?

Because they spent years at sea.

Oh, I thought it's going to be a joke. That's a good one. I like that. When I was in North Korea, what?

Oh, you know Dennis Robman.

It's a callback. By the way, the thing that is very heartbreaking about the North Korean situation is that they have a great sense of humor. It would be a lot easier if these were like robots or drones. They have big personalities, big sense of humor, and that made it much harder to leave and interact with these people because there's nothing more human and universal than laughter, and laughter is free.

You're saying there's humor even amongst the people that have most of their freedoms taken away?

Especially, again, we're from the Soviet Union. There's an anecdote. Russian humor is a thing because if you can't have food or nice things, at least you can have joy and make each other laugh. I think about it all the time, and I think about my guide all the time. It's been what, 2012? So it's been 11 years since I've been there, and she's still there, and everyone I've seen is still there. They just recently electrified the border, so even the few people who are escaping can't do it anymore.

Well, that's interesting that they still have a sense of humor. I attribute the Soviet Union for having that because of the really deep education system. You got to read a lot of literature.

Okay.

And because of that, you get to learn about the cruelty, the injustices, the absurdity of the world, as long as the writing is not about the current regime.

Yeah, but I think if you look at like African Americans, Jewish Americans, gay Americans, they are all disproportionate in terms of attributing to comedy. It's not because these groups have some magic to them. It's that when you are on the outside looking in, A, you're going to have different perspective than the people who are in the middle of the bell curve. But also, when you don't have anything to lose, at the very least, you can make each other laugh and find happiness that way. So that is something that I think is an important thing to recognize.

So what do you find funny? What makes you giggle in the.

Most joyful ways?

The suffering of others?

I mean, there are YouTube videos of fat people falling down, and they're really funny.

There's two kinds of people in this world: those that laugh at those videos and those.

That don't. No, and those that are in them. My friend, Jesse, just told me a great Norm MacDonald joke, and this is a good litmus test joke because he says a certain group of people lose their minds and a certain group of people just stare at you. I'll tell you the joke. This is Norm MacDonald. Guy walks into a bar and he sees someone at the bar who has a big pumpkin for a head. The guy's like, Dude, what happened to you? He goes, You never believe this. I got one of those Genie lamps. This is a genie. He's like, What happened? He goes, Well, the first wish, I wish for $100 million. He's like, Yeah, did you get it? He goes, Yeah. It was in my bank account. It feels fine. He goes, All right. Well, the second wish, I wish to have sex with as many beautiful women as I want. He goes, Did that happen? Goes, Yeah, it was amazing. He goes, Then what? Well, I wish for a giant pumpkin head. There's a certain mindset that will just be staring at the screen. There's so many levels why that's funny, at least to me.

I just love that kind.

Well, Norm MacDonald is just... I watched his videos all time. He's a guy that definitely makes me giggle. And he's one of the.

People that.

Makes me giggle for reasons I don't quite understand.

Did you ever see him with Carrotop on Conan O'Brien? No. Of making fun of Carrotop?

No.

This is probably the best talk show clip of all time. He's on with Courtney Thorn Smith. She was on Melrose Place. And Conan O'Brien is the host. And Courtney is talking about how she's going to be an upcoming movie with Carrotop. Conan is like, Oh, what's he going to be called? She's like, Does he have a title yet? Norman goes, Oh, I know what it should be called. Box office Poison. They're all laughing. She's like, No, no, no. The working title is chairman of the board. Conan goes, Do something with that smart ass. Norman goes, Yeah, board is spelled B-O-R-E-D, and they all just completely lost it.

There's something about him with words spoken out of his mouth with the way he turns his head and looks at the camera.

I think he is one of those rare comedians who you really feel like he's talking to you directly. Yeah. He feels like he's winking at you in the audience, and he's like, Can you believe I'm doing this? It's like almost he feels like he's, I don't want to say imposter, but like, he's more a member of the audience than he is a member of the people on the stage.

Yeah, it feels like he's on our side. Yes, yeah. Whatever the hell.

Our means. You know, Rosanne got him his first job.

Rosanne, you and Herbin hanging out.

I got it. Oh, my God. Talk about Thanksgiving. When you are talking to Rosanne Barr and making eye contact with this person, it is, I can't even describe it. It's just like, Holy crap, Roseanne Barr is talking to me. She is, I've said this to her face, pathologically funny. It does not turn off. You're sitting there and you're like, Holy crap. When you make her laugh, which is that laugh that's in the theme song of her show, you feel like, Okay, I did a mitzvah. I did something good and right in the world that I made Roseanne Barr laugh. It's also really funny because, and she's going to hate this because I tell her she's adorable, she isn't like that, she's little. You think of Rose Danbar as this force of nature, like a tsunami. She's like 5'3, I'd say maybe 1:30. She puts on the sunglasses. You think this little Jewish lady. You'd never know this is one of the most epic performers of all time. She lives near here now, so it's just so much fun talking to her. There's an old satirical magazine in the, I think, early 2000s called Hebe, written by Jews.

And she dressed up as Hitler for one of the photoshoots, and she was baking little men in the oven. I found on eBay. I want her to sign it to Michael. It should have been you. But she signed it to Michael, you're one smart cookie. And now it hangs Love Mom, Rosenbar, and I call her Mom, and it hangs over my desk because I have her good domestic goddess energy flowing at me. What?

What do you find? What else? So Norm McDonald.

Norm McDonald. I guess we've planned on that. My favorite.

Comedian is- We agree on something.

My favorite comedian of all time is Neil Hamperger. So, Neil Hamperger, I don't know if I'm ruining the bit. He's a character performed by this guy named Greg Tuckington. He comes out in a tuxedo, big eyeglasses, holding three glasses of water, coughing into the mic. I remember I saw him once in LA, and the girl ahead of me at the table ahead of me was with her boyfriend, this basic chick, pumpkin spice. She turns to him and she goes, What is this? I remember the first time he was on Jimmy Kimmel, and he tells one of his jokes, and he was like, Why does ET like Reese's Pies is so much? Well, that's what sperm tastes like on his home planet. No one laughs, and he goes, Oh, come on, guys, I have cancer. It just cuts to this marine in the audience with his arms crossed. If you know what he's doing, it's just absolutely amazing. He opened for tenacious de-ones in somewhere, I think, in Ireland or the UK, one of those. They're booing him because his jokes are often not funny. He's like, Hey, where did my whore ex-wife run off to with that dentist she's shacking up with?

I don't know, but when I see her in court next month, Alaska. They're booing and he goes, All right, do you guys want me to bring out Tenacious D? They're like, Yeah. Do you want to see your heroes of mind, Tenacious D? Yeah. Come on, let me hear it. Do you want to see Tenacious D? Yeah. He goes, All right. If I tell this next joke and you don't boo me, I'll bring out Tenacious D. And it's like, I'm trying to think of one that's not too-.

Self censorship has.

Never good. Okay. He goes, Can we agree that George Bush is the worst President America has ever had? From claps, he goes, Which makes it all the stranger that his son, George W. Bush, was in fact the best.

I take it back in the self censorship.

So two people laugh and he goes, Oh, that's amazing. I guess I'll do an encore. He did 10 more minutes. It was just like I love him so much.

It's interesting that you opened for Tinnacious D. Jack Black, that's a comedic genius of a different kind.

Oh, yeah. He was in one of my favorite movies, Jesus's Son. It's this little indie movie. He did a great turn in that. He's really underrated as an actor. He's got a lot of range. I know they get typed, cast as this one specific type, but he's really, really talented.

But also just the pure joy.

Yes, he's clearly having fun.

Okay, it is Thanksgiving, so following tradition. What are you thankful for, Michael, in this world?

Do you have a list too? No, not really.

Really? It's up in here.

I mean, you have several things you're thankful for. Yes. Okay. One of the things I'm- My.

List comes from the heart. I don't have to write anything down.

Well, I don't have it written down.

Okay.

One of the things that I'm most thankful for, this is a common answer, but I can back it up, ismy family because my nephew, Lucas, is now six years old. And when kids have a sense of humor, it's just miraculous. He stole my sister's phone and his mom, figured out that grandma has listed as mom in the phone. And he calls her up and he's like, Michael's in the hospital. He's really sick. He didn't want to tell you. And she's freaking out. He goes, prank. So I took him, Danesh Desuza just released a movie called Police State, which is actually really good. I highly recommend it. I was surprised how much I liked it because he wasn't going Republicans, good Democrats bad. It was just about authoritarianism. And he had a movie premiere, Mar-Lago. So I'm like, I got to bring Lucas to Mar-Lago. Lucas, I'm like, We're going to the President's house. He's like, Oh, the White House? I'm like, No. A former President goes, Oh, A. Blinkin? And I'm like, Okay, kid logic. He's giving logical answers. This is like AI. You have to program it. It's using logic correctly.

You should have told him as a president that's second to only A. Blinkin in terms of.

-.

Accomplishments, yeah.

He went up to all the women in their evening gowns, and he goes, You're so beautiful. Were you born as a girl? So when you have this six-year-old asking you this, it was really, really fun. That is a great joy to have a nephew. I have another one, Zach, who's coming up in age, and he's starting to talk now. That is really, really.

Fun for me. Getting to watch them find out about the world.

For the first time. And also training them. He loves being funny and having fun.

You're his audience, in a sense. Yeah, but- Because you giggle and-.

He can get me a prank, bro. He gives me a high five. My family, and you talk about what I find funny, these are things that actually enrage me. When people, and this is such a wasp thing, don't just go with the joke, or they're like, I don't get it, or they don't understand to just go with it. I was in the car with my sister when she was 10, 12, whatever. She's much younger than me. She's like 12 years younger. And there's this of squid, by the way, which is asymmetric. One of its eyes is very much bigger than the other because it swims horizontally. And so one's looking up, one's looking down with this more light. Shout out. If you want to learn more about squids, go to octonation.

Com. Octonation.

Shout out to Warren.

There's a lot of fascinating stuff. Octonation on Instagram. Yes.

I was in the car with my sister. She's like 10 or 12.

Me as a pirate. I'm sorry for the rude interruptions. I appreciate that account, especially.

Yeah, it's a great... Yeah.

These jokes and thoughts are coming to me at a 10-second delay, so I apologize. Okay. Anyway, you were telling about the.

Asymmetrical - I know where I was. Don't worry. I got it. All right.

So I told my - Sometimes you need help. No. The age is getting too... I was - Your skin is showing it. It's getting dark.

I told my sister, I go, When you were born, one of your eyes was bigger than the other, and you had to have surgery to fix it. So she turns, she's like, Mom, and my mom goes, Honey, the important thing is that you're beautiful now. What's the big deal? It was just a little surgery. And my sister is like, All right, calls grandma. And grandma goes, Michael said that I was born one of the eyes. She goes, Why is she telling you this now? It's not a big deal. The fact that everyone went with this, I was so impressed. I was like, This is a quality family in this very specific regard. Does your family have a sense of humor?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Soviet culture, there's a dark sense of humor. Very much so, yeah. There's - Wordplay.

-wordplay. Yeah, and especially the Russian language allows for some hilarious to it. There's also a culture of of poetry My dad, my mom, too, but they remember a lot of lines from books and poems. So you can do a lot of fascinating references that add to the humor and the richness of.

The conversation. I feel like that's a a very Russian thing. At a party or maybe at a bar or or I don't know where you'd meet people. These are such such I meant in Russia. I meant these would be such good ice breakers, right? You go up to someone goes, Hey, did you hear this one? No, no, no, and you just tell them some little story.

Did you say ice breakers because it's cold in Russia? I'm here all night.

That's true. You never leave.

Leave house. Literally.

I feel like that's a thing. Yeah. And that's not a thing in America.

You mean.

Witty banter? No, meaning you go up to a stranger and that's your ice breaker. You tell them this little joke. Joke. And everyone has the same sensibilities, right away you guys are chatting. I don't think that's a thing here. Here, it's more small talk, which drives me crazy. Crazy.

So else are you thankful for?

Well, what's something you're thankful for?

Well, you went for family. I'm definitely thankful for family. Okay. Yeah.

How, if I may ask, how do they react to you? You're sitting down with Elon, you're sitting down with you're sitting with all these big, with Kanye, all these big names, are they expressing that they're proud of you? Or is it more like, why haven't you you to this person?

Yeah, more Michael Michael please. Please.

It's the choice.

Yeah, they're very proud. They've been very... I mean, but they get argumentative and they're just like a regular human being with whom I'm close and we just argue about stuff. They're They're maybe not not enough, showed being proud of. But that part is just the nature of our relationship. It's also also parents.

Yeah, I don't talk to my dad. That's one of the the because there's never, ever any good job. And at a certain point, it's like, like, am I trying to search for approval from someone I'm never getting get it it for from from whom wouldn't mean anything at this point point.

Well, that's interesting. Interesting. I mean, a journey like that for a lot of people with their father or with their mother. They're always trying to find approval. Right. That's life for a lot of people. Yeah. That's a really big part of the human condition, is that relationship you have with your father, with your mother. I don't know. It's a beautiful thing. Thing. It's been a rough childhood or a beautiful one, all of it, that's who you are. The relationship, especially early on in your life with your father, with your mother, is extremely formative.

Yeah. My dad taught me a lot of things at a young age that I'm very, very grateful for. He's extremely intelligent, very flawed, and that's fine. We all are, except for me. And it's the thing that when you learn things that are right, and this is one of the things I like about being older, is that when I'm friends people- Much older. Much older. But much, much older. When I have friends who are younger, it's very easy for me to keep them from making the mistakes I did. So at at least this something I'm getting out of it is that, okay, I can't fix these mistakes, but it just takes me 30 seconds, and I can pull you back from making the mistake. So he taught me a lot as a kid. He really encouraged me very much to... He's a very good sense of humor and also very bad in some ways, dad jokes, but also really funny jokes. But also this love of learning that I got that from him. And I have got literally right now 98 books on my shelf to read. It's just a life... It makes me... I remember I had a friend, and she ran into someone she went to high school with, and he stopped you on the train.

And he's like, You're not in college. You need to read books anymore. I was just horrified to hear this.

Yeah. Boy, don't I know it.

I mean, you do laugh, but when you got... There's a lot of things I don't understand. When you got heat for like, I want to read the Western classics, to me, that might have been the the Internet at absolute worst.

I think there's just a cynical perspective you can take that this is such a simple celebration of a thing that there must be something behind it. I think the the for good and and is.

Just.

Skeptical. Skeptical. Like, behind this?

My hero, Albert Khamu, and if there's one thing I would want to fight, it's cynicism. Because it's such a giving up. It's such everything sucks. This sucks. That sucks. This sucks. Most things suck. Most standard comedians suck. Most movies suck. All podcasts suck. But it doesn't matter. Especially yours. Especially mine. It's unwatchable.

You're welcome. You can't even spell it correctly.

But the stuff that's good is what matters. Who cares if 90 % of movies are terrible? They're the ones that change your life. The books, the people, the comedians, the shows, the music.

And even the terrible things have good moments, beautiful moments?

Some, not all.

Your podcast being an example of not all. All. I literally I keep listening for something good.

Something good. In all fairness, none of my guests have anything to offer. It's not on me. I try.

Yeah. Well, I wish you talk a little less in your podcast. It's a little excessive. I only listen for the underwear commercials.

Commercials. Sheathunderwear. Com. Probably called I.

Think you you did I haven't seen you do it in a while, but this commentary on a a debate I think it was with Rand, like an Ayn Rand debate.

Or something like that. Oh, yeah, yeah, at the movies. I watched the video and I broke it down. That was.

Really great. I wish you did that more.

I haven't done live streaming in a long time. It was something I was doing a lot in New York, especially during COVID. I feel feel I don't know, I've got so many projects on the the plate. This is something else I'm thankful for. This is something I'm very, very thankful for. And I'm going to announce it here.

Coming out of the closet finally. Go ahead. Who's Who's lucky guy?

You're the one in drag.

Guns out.

Out. He just off. He makes me call him Sex Friedmann.

You like like.

I didn't say I did. I didn't even imply that. That. When I in, you probably know, as you know, but as many people watching this also know, Harvey P. Carr, who had the comic book series American Splender, was the subject of the movie American Splender. He wrote a graphic novel about me in 2006 called Econ hubris, which goes for $150 on eBay. It's not worth it. Just download it. I met Harvey because I wrote this screenplay about this band from the '80s called Rubber Rodio. It's a real band. And the keyboardist, Gary Gary who passed passed away. In peace, Gary, introduced me to Harvey because he did the animation for the movie. And this script's been in my desk for over 20 years. And I I thanks to my my Eric July, who has some huge success with his comics, I could just produce this as a graphic novel. So I've got an an artist, getting it together. So I'm going to make it happen finally. And it's some of the best writing I've ever done. I'm really proud of the story. It's ironic reading it now because when you're a writer, obviously different books, you put different aspects of yourself into them, right?

And this story is very, very dark because basically, they did all the right things and they went nowhere, right? What I realized was reading it now that all these fears I had over 20 years ago about what if I'm not going to make it? What if I'm doing all the hard work and it's still not enough? Now it's been been because I can at least pay my rent.

Do you feel like you've made it? Because you said you could pay rent.

I feel that to make it is if you don't have to have a boss. And you know how I really felt like I made it? This is going to sound like a joke, and it's not. This is being an immigrant. I own, as you know, Margaret Thatcher's bookcases. Yes. So to me, as an immigrant, to have her her in my house, I've made it.

You're right, it's not a joke.

There's nothing funny about it at all. All. I what? I guess. It's time to get serious.

Oh, nice. Now I'm more nervous and aroused. What else are you thankful for? We're both thankful for family.

The fact that I can-.

Still get it it.

What's that?

Nothing. Go ahead.

I think as an author, to be able to to write you want and have enough of an audience that it covers your living, that's as good as it gets as an author, almost. You don't need to be Stephen King or some legend. There's lots of standups who aren't world famous, but they have perfectly good living. They do their gig, they do what they love. I feel very, very blessed. You must be thanked for your career.

Yeah, career-wise. But I think the best part about it is just just making friends with people I admire.

Quite.

Honestly, just friends. The people have gotten to know me, I hide from the world world I hit some low points, especially with all the new experiences and just the people that have been there for me and haven't given up on me.

There's days, and I'm sure sure had this also, where I literally don't speak to someone the whole day. And in certain times in my life, I remember very vividly. I was in in DC in I was an intern. And that summer, DC closes down on the weekends. And I remember those weekends when I got off the phone with the third person, I knew there was no possibility anyone was going to to call. I don't what that felt like. And it was dark and it was bad. So I remember those feelings of loneliness a lot.

I still feel alone like that sometimes.

You don't feel alone?

Not anymore.

What's the the you think?

Because I have a lot of people who I care about, who care about me. Me. I mean, thing about moving to Austin is I forgot how lonely New York got because it was one after another, I lost everybody. And then you start losing the places you go to. And then it was just like, holy crap, I'm very isolated. And here in Austin, there's not as much to do, obviously, as in New York, but there's a lot of people here. More people are coming all the time. So if I ever want to hang out with someone, I've got a long list. And these are people who I've known for a very long time, people who know me quite well, so I could be myself, my awful, awful, awful, awful, awful self. And that is something I don't take lightly.

I moved to Texas as going to secede. Yeah. It's just a very - Do.

You know what happened with that? No. Itry to forget the forget in the in the Amen, probably for the best. On Monday, a guy in the Texas legislature introduces a bill to have it on the referendum, to have a referendum for Texas to declare its independence. Its I'm on Rogan, me and him discuss it. I give it national attention. It was also really funny because a lot of people like, These people have been in Texas five minutes. I go to the Texas legislature, meet with the guy, have a nice conversation, session. A month or two later, unanimous, I think, he gets voted, kicked out of Congress because he got an intern drunk and was inappropriate with her. At least it was a girl in this case. But yeah, so it's like that was my little Texas little moment.

Oh, it didn't.

Go anywhere. It did not go anywhere. Go But it's still part of the of the Texas Republican Party.

Yeah. It's fascinating that history is probably laden with stories like this like this revolutionaries. We celebrate the heroes, but then there's the.

Losers like...

Myself. Yeah.

And we're going to mark that one as a failure and edit it out. And moving on. Moving on. They're friendships, right? But by the way, I want to say just to you, I'm thankful in these lonely moments for people who write books. I've been listening to audiobooks a lot and reading a lot. A really like audiobooks, actually. I don't know, I can just name random person. Random person. He's a he's I'm reading on the-.

Wait, I read him.

What he- I just I he written a book most recently about the Russia-Ukraine war.

He wrote another one that I read.

Didn't he write about- Empires, I think.

-the fall of the Soviet Union or something like that?

Yeah. Yeah.

It was very, very good. He's great. He's great. Him as a resource for the for pill.

He's objective while still having emotion and feeling to it. To it. Has a bias. That's fine.

But a lot of times when you write a story that involves Putin, people are really ideological. They don't write with a calmness and the clarity and the rigor.

Of history.

There's emotion in it. There's almost a virtue signaling. And he doesn't have that, even though he is Ukrainian and has very strong opinions on the matter. Anyway, there's people like people like he does an incredible job researching a recent event. Like he says, I was looking at everything that's been written about the war in Ukraine and realizing the old Churchill line that historians are the worst ones to write about current events except everybody else. And so he's like, I might as well just write about this war. And he does an exceptional job summarizing day by day the details of this war. Anyway, so I'm just grateful for a guy like that. Yeah.

For me, I'll name some historians I love. Arthur Herman, Victor Sebastian is probably my favorite. David Petrusia, P-I-E-T-R-U-S-Z-A. When you are a historian, a I try to do this to some degree in the white the as much as I could. I could. But you take data and you make it read like a like a you're learning about who we are as people, what people, what but also it's entertaining and entertaining and to me is like the Acme of writing. I have so much admiration.

What does Acme mean?

Top. Okay. Zenith. Zenith, okay.

Is this what writers do? They just come up with these incredibly sophisticated words. I'm impressed. Because you could have just said the best of writing.

Acme is also the company in company Bunny and Wally Coyote. It's always Acme. Yeah. Like Acme bombs. When they are that good, it leaves me in awe. It's just the- Ron Schar now is another one. Who? He wrote The Hamilton biography.

Oh, nice. I have a lot of favorite historians about the whole time period of World War World William Schyer, people that lived during it, during I really like those accounts. Obviously, Solzhenitsyn, he's not a historian, but his accounts are fascinating. How much How you talk about Solzhenitsyn?

Never.

Not much, right? Why not?

I feel like I wanted to... There's nothing I could add to him.

To him. The Michael the of the previous century.

No, he's talented, charismatic, and skilled, so he's not the Michael Marley. Yeah, I did not. I feel like I didn't read Gullag-Ocapella for the White the You didn't. I didn't. No, I feel I got a lot of it from Anne Applebaum, who's a very controversial figure. Her history books on the Civil Union, I think, are superb. But she's also accused of being very much like a neocon and being a warmonger in contemporary times. Oh, I see. And I think comparisons between Putin and Stalin, although there is a Venn diagram, I think are a bit much because I think it's very hard to claim that if Putin conquered Ukraine, that there'd be a genocide. I think that's a very hard very hard argument.

In these tense times, even the comparisons of what's going on in Israel on either side.

Comparisons to the.

Holocaust are also troubling in this way.

Yes. And I also don't like how that... I got in trouble. There was some literal demon who works at the at the.

As opposed to a regular demon?

As opposed to a figurative demon.

I didn't know they employed demons.

They exclusively employed demons at the Atlantic. And he was giving me crap just a couple of years ago on ago because I didn't think it's appropriate to refer to George Sauros as a Holocaust survivor. I'm like, Listen, if you want to put him in the same context as Anne Frank, knock yourself out. But I think that's so completely disingenuous and frankly, repulsive to me, to to quivocrate between figures like that. Like that. To claim that anyone who is a billionaire, who is including Elon, including Elon, including Sheldon no shortage of these people. If you want to use your extreme your extreme to influence politics, you have to be up for criticism. And to protect people, Bill Gates, to protecting these people from criticism just on the base of their identity is deranged to me.

But also the Holocaust as a historical event and the atrocities within it are just singular in history. And so comparing them-.

What's the utility? Right. You're just basically trying to take this brand, I'm using that term in a very specific way, and when they say climate denial, no one's denying climate exists. So you're just trying to go off of Holocaust denial. I think it's shameless, and I think it's gross.

And it cheapens everything because there's deep, important lessons.

About the Holocaust.

Yes.

To me, the lessons are about how extreme how can get.

And how fast. Yeah, and how fast. That's the one. So people ask, Oh, are humans basically good? Are they basically evil? I always say they're basically animals. And I think most people are almost fundamentally deranged and that there's basically this veneer of civilization and decency. And when shit hits the fan and we see this over and over, they do things that would have been completely unthinkable even to themselves five years ago.

Most people are fundamentally are fundamentally a veneer of civility.

There's a show called...

I think I disagree with that.

What's the show called? I'm having Alzheimer's because of the.

Advanced age. The age.

The skincare. I think there's a show called I think you should leave. It's a sketch comedy show. You should leave. Should leave. It's a sketch comedy sketch comedy he captures these great... How is he is he He captures these great moments of just the very thin veneer of normalcy of normalcy and just that's so frequently lurking underneath. Another great example of this, when this is dealing with people who are literally crazy, have you ever seen the seen Horders? Yeah. So every episode of Horders, there's usually two people in every episode, but every episode has the same the same veneer of normalcy, veneer of normalcy, veneer of normalcy, slight expression of concern, of concern, And it always follows that exact pattern.

Yeah, I don't know. I think the deep ocean of the human mind is good.

There's a longing to be good to others.

I have seen literally no evidence of this. And I know I know the deep ocean with you people, but like...

What do you do you people?

Pirates. People?

Pirates.

I don't see it. See it.

You - Mr. That, You're an anti-Semite? No, that's not nice to say in front of such a large audience. You're embarrassing me, Mr. Me, Mr.

Parrot. What's that, Mr. That, Mr. Parrot?

You He's a run of the mill troll and barely an intellectual. That's not nice to say. That's not true. We talked about this. You have to see the good in people.

You have seen have seen personally. Quickly and easily it is for human beings to form out-groups.

And.

To just read just read as I just did a minute ago with ago Atlantic, completely of the human race. And that happens constantly and very easily. Humans are tribal beings. I don't see how that's compatible with this essential desire to do good.

No, I think it's like in 1984, the two minutes of hate. There is a part of humans that wants to be tribal and wants to direct, get angry and hateful. And then that hate is easy to direct. Yes. But I think, especially people as you, as an anarchist, talk about talk people in power that can direct that anger. But I think if you just look at recent human history, the desire for good, the communal desire for good, outweighs that, I think. Like most of life on Earth right now, people are being good to each to each in the most fundamental sense, relative to how nature usually works.

Usually I think you're both wrong about people and about nature. So nature is not inherently violent in the in the for example, if anyone has an aquarium or if you look at wildlife, yeah, you're going to have prey or prey, but these animals are going to be co-existing and they're going to be ignoring each other for the most part, right? And as for humans being essentially good, I think humans are essentially to each other, you said. I think they're essentially civil and amiable, but that's not really being good.

Good, I think, is a thing that gets illustrated when you're challenged, when there's a.

Difficult situation. Yes.

I mean, civility is a good starting point. And then when there's a big challenge that comes, people step up on average.

I completely agree with you that human beings are capable of such profound goodness that it makes you extremely emotional. And I certainly think that that's true. But I think that that's more unusual than is the norm.

I see beauty everywhere.

So do I. But that doesn't mean it's in every person.

Not in every person, but in most people. I think... I mean, I wish there was a really good way to measure this. My general sense of the world is just there's so much so both in terms of economics, in terms of art, in terms of just creation as a whole that's happened over the past century.

That.

It feels like the good is outpowering the bad.

You just did the perfect segue.

To.

The box.

What's in the box? The box? Is fragile ego?

You stole my joke. You stole my joke. That was the joke I made at you before we were recorded.

You stole my joke. No, I did. I write all your all your hack. You hack.

You know, I have a lot of beautiful stuff in my house because I think it's something very important, everyone listening. If you accomplish something that is great, some achievement, what I like to do is do is something to remember that moment. Because sometimes when it's hard, you forget you've done great things in your life. You've had accomplishments. It doesn't have to be some amazing factory. It could just be like my first my or I got a got or raise, or you know anything. So there's this amazing sculptor named Jake Michael Singer. A singer who's a sculptor. And I saw a.

Piece of his - I was a singing voice. This is a joke song. I do want to.

Cross that. Hold on, I could go somewhere with this. How is.

His singing voice? Do you want me to write your joke.

For you? Yeah. What's the punchline?

Hard. There it is.

There it is.

That's what.

She said. I followed him on Instagram. He followed me back. He's like, If I made, he says, What's the point of being an artist if the work I create isn't in the spaces of people I like and I He's a big fan of yours. You've given him, and our episodes together, our him joy. So he said, If I make Lexa's sculpture, will he put on the shelf behind him? And what that reminded me of is when I was a kid, you read Batman comics and there's The and there's The Batcave has all this cool stuff in it. I didn't it. Until much later that all of those things in The things had an origin story. So the giant penny, the dinosaur, there was actually a story where that came from. So if you're a fan of a show, you can spot, Oh, this is when this appeared. This is when that appeared. This that appeared. Appeared. So he made you this sculpture. He lives in Turkey, and it's called Chance Murmer. I haven't even seen it yet. It is absolutely beautiful.

So you want to do a little do Yes. Okay. Acts or? Body Ax.

All right.

Let's do it. Let's do it. Let's do it. Let's do it. I'm so excited. He so excited.

He.

The box. You know that Steven Segel movie where there's a stripper that comes out of the box? Is that? Under Seage. Okay. He is on a boat. You're not an action film guy. No. One. What does the pirate say when he turns 80? What? I-m-80.

I-m-80.

Oh. See, that's how I know you don't know you.

I just don't like pirates.

Well, your mom does. Do you play any musical instruments?

Any musical do you. I've seen your guitar videos. Okay.

Here's a piece of wood for you. That's what it feels like, just so you know.

Oh, wow. Oh, my God.

This traveled across.

The world. Across the why his work speaks so much to me. Much to of all, he's combining so many different references. It's Nike, the It's of victory. Right? It looks like an angel as well. The Italian Futarists, which is my favorite art movement from the early 20th century, they tried to capture motion in 2D or 3D form.

Well, Jake, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for creating beautiful things. Thank you for caring about somebody like me and somebody like Michael. I really feel the love.

That's the other thing. Thank you. When you have something that matters to you in your you and you're having a bad day, you can look at it and remember, you know what I mean? That spirit of joy. And I actually have a list here. I got a little rant ready. Do you want to hear my rant?

Yeah, let's go. One of.

The things that drives me that is when people, especially Conservatives, think that all contemporary art is ugly or abstract or literally garbage. And there's a lot of that. But so much of the stuff out there in galleries is not only not crazy expensive, but they're trying to sell things for people in their house. And these are young artists, they're trying to add beauty. I have a list. So if you don't believe me and you think all contemporary art is garbage or terrible, go to the website at any of these places that I'm going to I'm off, look through them, and you're telling me that it's not about creating beauty and joy and things in people's lives. So I don't have any relationship with any of these people. These are just some galleries I follow on Instagram. Utre Gallery, Antler Gallery, Gallery, Antler Gallery, I don't know how to pronounce it, I'm sorry, B-E-I-N-A-R-T, Spoke Art Gallery, Vare Gallery in Milwaukee, I was there. The pieces were not.

Expensive at all. What art are we talking about? Everything, paintings?

Mostly paintings. Some sculptures, too, like this. Too, Helford is my favorite one in favorite Night Gallery, Vertical Gallery, Avante Gallery, Hive Gallery, Haven Gallery, and Curio Art Gallery. I'm telling you, it's not exorbitant. This is not the thing where you have to go to museum and to museum This doesn't make sense to me. You look at it right away, you're like, Okay, I know what this is, and it's beautiful. It's awesome. And you're supporting someone who's young and creative, trying to do something and make the world a better place. So I'm a big fan of the contemporary art scene. A lot of it is not great, but even the stuff that's not great is very rarely disgusting or gross. It's just like, Okay, I've seen this before, something like that. Okay. There's a stand-up where I'll pay money for the ticket and someone's like, Who's an opener? It's like, I wouldn't pay to see him perform, but him perform, but made me laugh. That person is still by far more good than bad. So a lot of a lot of stuff I would own, but it's like, Okay, I get it. I like it.

Well, as the analogy goes, I really like going to open mics, actually, because it sounds absurd to say, but funny isn't the only thing that's beautiful about stand-up comedy. It's the comedy.

The the.

It's going agony. It's It's trying to be funny. It's taking the leap, trying the joke. Trying the of the best stuff is actually funny, but the audience is like three people, two of whom are drunk and bored, and you're still going for it. Going for the human spirit right there.

Rosanne was telling me how Gilbert Godford go on. It was like 3:00 in the morning, and it was her and three other comics in the comics in they all were just dying. He was just killing them. Who is your favorite comedian?

Dave Smith.

Who?

And cut scene. Favorite comedian. It was first on Norman McDonald. If you put a gun to my head and I had to answer really quickly, that would be him. Okay. I would also say Louis CK.

Oh, wow. Yeah.

Oh, my God. But that's almost like a vanilla answer at this moment in history because it's history because.

Louis CK is pretty radioactive.

He is. Well, yeah, he does it. The tough topics, the best. Mitch Hadberg, the wit of a good one-liner is great. I guess that's what Norm McDonald was a genius at. Yes. What about you?

I mean, we're so fortunate to be here in Austin because that company, because that you go there and people are just killing it. David Lucas is amazing. Lucas is great. Tyra Vera probably did the best set I've seen since I've been here in Austin. And I watched him and I'm like, this guy's even bitchier than I am. So I reached out to him. So he's just terrific. David Lucas is another Lucas is buddy of mine. You just.

Said it twice, I think.

I'm thinking Dave Landau. Excuse me. Dave Landau. Me. Dave Landau.

I'm old It's.

True, though.

It's.

True. It's true. It's true. Dave Lucas. You ever.

Been to the Comedy to Mothership? It's a.

Great spot. Where is that? Is that in Austin?

Austin? Is that where Willy Nelson is from? I is from? I don't.

I heard a joke about that the other week.

What's the- Tell the joke again.

What's the only thing worse than giving head to Willy Nelson? What? If he says, I'm not Willy Nelson.

What's that, Mr. Parrot? I know he's not funny. He thinks he's better on Twitter. That's not nice to say right in front of his face. I just think how he feels.

The statue's Chance Murmer is judging you. Chance. It's called Chance Murmer.

Chance Murmer.

God, that's so beautiful.

That's.

Gorgeous. This is another reason I hate cynicism, and I talk about this a lot. Even just on Etsy, there are so many small, not huge companies, like individual artisans who are creating great stuff and just making it happen. Making it really sad for me where people can't see that. Or if they're like, Well, how could I be excited about a sculpture when blah, blah, blah, the Middle East. And it's just And you can always look for an excuse not to look for joy, or you could look for an excuse to look.

For joy. Yeah, that's just incredible. I feel the same way about OnlyFans. I can't even get that out of my mouth before laughing at my own failed joke. That's what she said. All she said. Might be one of the first that's what she said from Michael said Yeah.

I'm going to count that.

I don't know what I'm going to do with mine because I got my own. Mine's three feet tall.

Just like me. Your box is much bigger. Yeah. And it was giving me an inferiority complex. I think I'm going to invade Russia. That's a Napoleon That's a those in the those.

I don't know if I'm going to... I think I'm going to put it in my bedroom. It's the first thing I see when I wake up.

Put it in the bedroom? Yeah. Do we get through everything we're thankful for?

No, I've got lots of things I'm thankful for.

What else? Friends, family, we said books.

I'm thankful for career. Thankful for career. I am thankful for, and I know people are going to lose their to and I can hear them flipping out already. I am thankful for social media.

I'm.

Thankful for several reasons. First, it is a way for people to make connections that they couldn't have made in years made in if you got some weird hobby, you can find that other person that you're at hobby and you make that connection. It's a great way to stay in touch permanently for people, otherwise you'd lose touch with whatever venue. And it's also a great way to expose corporate depravity. When you have these organizations that are dishonest, I think the community notes thing on Twitter is the greatest.

Thing ever. Yeah, it's incredible. I wish they would pay attention to Michael Mowes account more often.

You shouldn't be encouraging anyone to pay attention to my Twitter account. Yeah. It's a Yeah. Fire. I don't mean, Bridget. I mean, like a literal Bridget, a.

Oh, Bridget, by the way, is amazing. But your Twitter account makes... Yes, not here.

I wish she did. She's in Georgetown.

No, I mean, in this mean, we're sitting. It's a joke, Michael. Is it? Yeah.

But I'm just really glad about it's another way for people who before would have felt very alone. I know some people do feel alone, but for other people, it makes them feel connected.

There's been a lot of talk about anti-Semitism recently. Yeah.

What's.

Your sense about this? Is anti-Semitism like any other brand of hate? There's a lot of hate out there.

No, I don't think it's like any other brand of hate. Because I don't think racists or transphobes or homophobes or misogynists or or argue openly or even not so openly for the killing of black Americans, transgender people, gay people, women or immigrants. Women or not only something that's talked about, it's something that has actually happened in not just the Holocaust, but just centuries of just right? There's this great book that I read many years ago called years Satanization of the Jews. Camille Paglia recommended it, and I read it. They live in this certain specific anti-Semitism. Again, I'm not talking about people who are against Israel or something. I'm talking specifically about Jew hatred. They have this moral have that Jews are the only people who are capable of good or of and Jews are exclusively capable of evil. For example, if you look at the George W. Bush White House, you had W, you had Cheney, Condoleezza Rice, Colin Powell, Donald Powell, a lot of these lot of advisors. So if there's 10 people in a room and there's one Jewish person, it's his fault and the rest are Jew-controlled. So again, they only exist as a puppet of Jews in this worldview.

And it's like that to me, if there were no Jews on Earth, it is crazy to say that John Bolton and Liz Cheney and Lindsey Graham wouldn't be pushing for more war. That makes no sense to me. It's like you blame the Jews when bad things happen, but when a Jewish person does something good, it doesn't really matter. Or just wait, he's going to do something bad. Well, yeah, that's true. Human beings do good beings and then they do bad things sometimes. But it only counts when that Jewish person does the bad thing.

I wonder what's a way to fight anti-Semitism and fight hate in.

Fight I think the only or the best way, because I thought a lot about this, about how did gay Americans go from being universally from being despised to the point that many people in the '80s went to their graves, to their graves, those without even telling their parents because they were so scared, to now Times Square is just covered in Pride flags. And I think this also works for Islamophobia and some of these other of is what I call the ambassador program. Because as soon as you know someone who is a member of a certain group, it is a lot harder to be bigoted against them. Because instead of this being this out-group that's somewhere out there, it's like, there, a minute. I work with this guy. Yeah, he's a jerk. Maybe he sees things a little differently than me, but this guy is not a horrible human being. So I think the only way to fight any form of bigotry is to be a good example of the counter to these whatever archetype or stereotype is in the culture.

Karl Marx wrote that, Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and of a soulless condition. It is the opium of the people, as the famous phrase goes. Do you think he has a point?

No, I hate that quote. I absolutely hate it. I despise this Reddit, internet, atheist activism for the simple reason that I know many people who, in finding faith, have become objectively better human beings. They start living consciously. They take morality seriously. They try, we all fail, to be moral good people. So this snearing that these midwits, these marginally intelligent people have towards religious people. Now, lots of religious people use religion to rationalize their bad behavior or big ego, so on and so forth. That exists, that's true. But to say that it never helps anyone and it's universally... See, it's was talking about a period, I'll defend his quote, when his argument when the masses are being starved and oppressed, but they're promised. Don't worry, you'll have riches in heaven. So you should let yourself be pushed around now. And this is this BS bargain that the people are being given. So that was, I think, the point he was making. It certainly doesn't apply nowadays. I've been close to the family in the Midwest. They're good Christian people. I remember very specifically this guy. Shout out to him. Sean Sherrod, I went to college with him, David Lucas.

Have you checked out the comedy out the.

Great club. Where is it? Austin? Willy Nelson. I was 17, 18, freshman year, and I was reading all this criticism of the criticism of I was like, look, this is in there. Look at this in there. He put his hand on my shoulder and he says, Michael, there's nothing you're going to tell going that's going to make me lose my faith. That was a very self-aware and profound thing to profound thing I've gotten older and I know lots of religious people, there's no part of me that thinks they're wrong or they should be mocked. Should be mocked. Also reminds me of when people sneer at addicts and recovery. They're like, alcoholism as a disease is a choice. It's like, wait a minute. You don't know what it's like to have your entire life ruined by drugs or alcohol. And if you have to tell yourself, I have this disease and blah, blah, blah, and that keeps you from drinking, and now you're a moral, upstanding person who's reliable and takes responsibility for their actions, I don't see the harm at all. So I think this activist atheism is cheap. I don't agree with it agree with I do not like that quote at all.

But at big fan of big I.

Mean, I think there's a fan of a I forget who was, apologies. He had this great quote, he great quote, he goes this is me talking. He goes, The games people play to feel smarter than others is depressing and annoying. And I think this fedora, think atheism is a good is a the other thing. If you've proven that someone else is stupid, that doesn't mean you're smart. You could both be stupid. So be stupid. Proved someone else is stupid. Who cares?

Yeah. And snearing Yeah. And forms in general is just not great.

Just not of the things I block out people on social media on social not going to sneer at me in my space. You could sneer me all you want in your space, but I'm not putting up with your crap. I don't know you. My know you.

My space.

Is that on Sixth Street?

On Sixth.

That's how Lex comes.

Like a Pablo's dog. That was the sound before you get to you get 10 minutes waiting for an image of a image of a line at a time. I recently talked to John Mirshammer. I don't know if you know him at all. He has this idea about offensive realism. It's a way to analyze the world, international relations. And the basic idea, and I'll run it by you and see what you think, is that.

States.

Nations want to survive, and they try to do so by maximizing power, military power. And he talks about he quite a bit in a bit of these underlying assumptions of this way of viewing the world is that states are that towards each other. Yes, that's true. And they operate under a lot of uncertainty. States cannot be sure that other states will not use military capabilities against them. Right. They want to They and they want to use military power to control the uncertainty to protect themselves.

So I disagree in that disagree in I see on your see I think the world is a lot closer to Brave New World than it is to 1984. And I think it I if you look at, let's suppose, China's influence in America, right? The influence is far more through far more than military power. China doesn't threaten America through, We're going to kill you. It's more like their infiltration of universities, TikTok, things of that nature. Maybe this would have worked before the pop culture era, but I think one of the reasons we have this American hegemony isn't just a function of American military. I think it's much more a function of American popular culture. When you're exporting ideas and culture, it makes other people in other countries feel closer to you and also feel regarded to you as a friend and also to adopt your to It's a great way to spread propaganda.

It seems to correlate, though, right? It's interesting. It's an interesting idea what has more what has viral spread of ideas or the power of the military. It seems that the United States is at the top of the world.

On both.

That's true. And so it's hard to disentangle the two.

Let's look at Let's American culture is very popular in Europe in many ways, right? The best music comes out of Sweden, Swedish of pop. They're singing in English, even though so on and so forth. None of this is a this is it's a function of post-World War II to some extent, but I don't think it's a function of American bases there. I think it's a function of we're exporting our music, our TV shows, and our movies.

Yeah. It's interesting if the battleground will be Brave New World, the.

New of ideas. I think it's I think it's It's so much cheaper, and again, this is one of the dark sides of social media, to use influence than it is to use threats. I think COVID is a good example of this. Example so much of the pressure. Yes, there was Yes, but it was the fact that everyone bought into it, rightly or wrongly. But the vast majority of the population was behind all of these things. And that was through persuasion, because people are begging for it to come back in many cases.

So who's funding you? Which intelligence agency?

Wasad. Wasad.

This is how you do great interviewing. See, great didn't even expect that. Okay. What's that, Mr.

What's that, Mr.

Parrott? You knew it. But you didn't have any documentation, did you?

I think Mr. I is threatened by the better wings, by chance murmur.

He gets like that when he's turned on. Oh, okay. He's not threatened. He's not wait until all three of us are alone together. It's going to be one hell of a party.

Beaks and feathers everywhere.

And metal. Yeah, this thing is beautiful. It's ridiculous. You have actually a lot of really cool stuff at your place. It's so fun. What's a cool thing that stands out to you? Maybe a recent edition.

So I went to the Dallas Museum of Art last year for my birthday, and there was a painting I liked. I Googled And and I saw the auction for that exact painting. That exact was like, I think, three grand, which is not cheap, but not something you think... You think in a museum, I could never afford something never afford something like... That's right. So when I went to Houston with some friends, the some friends, Natalie, who made the cake of you. Oh, yeah. You. Oh, yeah.

It's my mom.

Terrified my it?

Yeah. Is it? It's not the cake that terrified my mom. It's you, Michael Mell, is cutting it off, cutting the face off and laughing maniacally.

Well, Natalie is pregnant. She's going to have a daughter named Daisy. So congrats to Natalie. But I was in the museum with them, and with was a statue of Thoth, who's the Egyptian God whose head is an Ibis. It's a bird with a long with And Thoth is the God of the Moon, God of Moon, God of he invented writing. I thought, So know what? I've always loved ancient Egypt. I know a lot about a and especially the mythology. It would be really cool as an aspiring author to have an ancient Egyptian an statue in my house. In my turned out that the Egyptians also killed and mummified Ibises and buried them with scribes. A week after I went to the museum, there was an auction for an Ibis for an I have it now in my house, still in house, overlooking my desk. We all know it's going to come to life and peck life my eyes and write with my blood. But that is one of the recent cool the Another thing I have, which is in terms of in terms of holy I have an original Patrick Nagle painting. Patrick Nagle people don't know the name, he's the '80s artist.

He did The He cover. We never see him in nail salons. I have a male, which a very rare for him to do. Him to two of my two of What? He only drew He only I have one where he drew a male. It's a guy and a gene ad or something.

And.

Now I'm looking forward to... So Jake made me a three-foot-tall sculpture called Future Murmer, which I am ecstatic to get.

Just to remind yourself how many fascinating, beautiful people fascinating, are out there.

And just the victory and holiness and technology holiness and and how many people have fought so that I could do what I do.

Yeah, that's another thing I'm grateful for. Just like the 100 billion or so people that came before us.

Yeah.

And also the trillions of life forms that came before that.

Oh, God. I've gone down this trilobite rabbit hole buying fossils. Because as a kid, I thought trilobites were the coolest thing, and now I've got like 15. Yeah. And what's interesting is when you buy trial byt fossils on eBay, they're listed as used. Because it's got to be newer used according to the programming, so it's used. Yeah.

Yeah. But just thinking about all that history, just all the life forms that came before, it seems like a really special thing we have going on Earth here.

Oh, Earth I think that's very fair to say. But I also think this is like this is like live life Kamu talked about living to the point of tears, especially on behalf of people who didn't have that privilege. So I dedicated the white pill to my parents who got me out of the Soviet Union and all the kids who never could. And it's like when I like I want everyone else to not else to obviously going to be going to I'm not here. Enjoy what you... You live for me, because I can't have that privilege anymore.

What do you think about Kamu as a writer?

I don't like his novels at all.

Novels you don't at you Yeah, you talk shit about the plague to me.

Yeah, I think the book is pointless. It's fascinating. Because all you need to do is read the is and then you get it. I don't.

Think his don't think his It's not true for most.

True No.

I mean, you could mean, don't could I just don't agree at all. I mean, it's catch in the eye. There's a lot of books that seem trivial.

I don't think it seems trivial, but I think- Animal I Animal Farm is a methodical step-by-step examination of a transformation from one thing to another. The plague is not that.

It's a methodical examination of what a society is like under the plague, which could symbolize a lot of things, including the plague directly or Nazi Germany or ideological movements. It's similar to Animal Farm, maybe not as effective in terms of using this.

Symbolic- I think Animal Farm has a narrative. And I'm going to spoil the whole spoil the whole The Plague. Okay. There's a town, I believe, in Oman. A plague descends. People struggle to deal with it. And the plague vanishes as quickly as it came, the end.

Yeah, but there's the victims, the people that take advantage of it. There's the doctor that omits the absurdity and the evil of the plague is fighting to do good.

Nothing for me. There's nothing for me.

Okay, well, I could spoil an animal farm. There's pigs. There's animals pigs. There's animals and the humans are abusing them. Are abusing the animals overthrow the humans. But then the pigs become just like the humans. Like the lesson, kids, is that power corrupts no matter whether you walk on four or on two.

I thought the lesson was that pigs are the most humanlike animals on the farm.

I thought the lesson was that there's no that there's.

That's right. Yeah.

You've interviewed a lot of people. Yeah. What have you learned about getting to the soul of a person, the soul of an idea from interviewing? Just how to do a good interview.

First an interview. I'm not interviewing just random people. I'm interviewing people who are accomplished. It's not a random group that's self-selecting for something different. But I think that people love to, and this is very understandable, love to feel seen. So if you're someone who's done something, even if you're the best guinea pig breeder in America, to have someone interested in your work and listen to what you're saying... Because I remember every book I've written, I have friends and I wouldn't stop talking about the person I'm writing with or the North Korea. And at a certain point, I'm sure they're like, All right, I don't care of this care of it takes over your brain, you know what I mean? So if you are someone who has an interest or a hobby, I'm sure to some extent maybe your friends or family friends or family talking about of or you don't want to talk about with them. About with them. You want the private life where you could just be yourself. So I try to, and this comes from my comes background, when I'm talking to people to ask questions that they haven't heard before, there's a possibility.

That.

This actor, I'm a huge fan of, is going to be on my show. I don't want to spoil everything. And he's got a very specific role that he's known for. And I know I'm going to... I'm like, okay, I know it's going to be annoying for you talking about this one role, but my goal is to ask questions that you aren't sick of asking, of having been you.

Pornstar or?

No, not a porn star. That porn star.

That.

Joke.

Out.

What do you know about breeding guinea pigs? You mentioned it. I'd love to hear- I don't know anything. Don't love to hear more about it.

I always use this as an example. As an example. Meet someone at a party who breeds guinea pigs, right? There's two approaches. Either you're weird, get it okay, or sit down and tell me everything. And I'm very And I'm all the people I like are the second group. When you meet someone who's doing something unusual and are passionate about it and are good at it, that to me is the motherload.

Yeah, that to me also is the thing I enjoy the most. It's like-.

People.

That are passionate about it- And then.

It's like, who you guys hate? Do you guys hate the hamster people? Do hamster people? Do rabbit hate There's got to be someone that you guys look down on. Because the marine Aquarium people look down the freshwater Aquarium people.

Yeah, it's a hierarchy.

Yes, there's always going to be a hierarchy. This is where the left anarchists and I disagree because they think you could have humanitarianism. There's going to be a hierarchy.

Be emerge. Yes. There's no Yes. In the guinea pig world.

No, it's just a different just.

Somebody's always breeding somebody else. Yes. And looking down on the others.

If someone's the If someone's it's the hamster people, the rat people.

And everybody's breeding.

Yeah.

By the way, are you an anarcho capitalist? What flavor of anarchist.

Are you? I'm an anarchist without adjectives. I like them all. The Black Flag comes in many colors.

Oh, right. All right. You're quoting your own... No, I understand. It's a beautiful line in the book.

Thank you. I think the anarcho capitalists don't give the left anarchists enough credit, especially for their courage. And I do whatever I do whatever my power to talk about people like Emma Goldman whenever possible.

Do you still think that are some people better than others is a good litmus test?

Yes. It's worked 100 % of the time.

And for you, the answer is yes.

I never answered.

There's two of them.

What are you getting a hitchcock up in here?

Hey, careful. I always got I back. What little habits in your life make you happy? Now that you're in Austin.

Oh, my God. I was prepping for this interview, and I imagine this coming up. And I knew that as I explain this, you know how sometimes when someone tells a someone tells first it's amusing, then it's amusing and concerned, and then you're like, then shit. Where's the exit? Yeah.

I'm getting nervous already.

You should. I'm going to tell you something I've told something I've couple of people. This is my absolutely off the charts, autistic approach to shaving.

Oh.

I have this insane system. You asked about habits like giving me a giving I used to hate shaving. To hate shaving. I used There's something called wet shaving. So wet shaving is you get the brush, you get the soap that's in a canister, you stir it up, you paint your face, and then you shave. The thing shave. There are dozens of these shaving soap these shaving soap I tried a couple of a couple these soaps because you're testing for scent, you're testing for the lather thickness, and also how smooth of a shave it gives you. I have it I I'm not making this stuff, I'm not this creative. I have it down to a cycle of 67 soaps.

Yeah.

Okay? A cycle. A cycle. So 67.

When.

I use up one use that is a slot that I will have to try new ones. And I will try new ones in that slot until I get one that I one and then that slot is filled. So right now, I have 67 that I use, and I have.

86- Candidates. Like in queue. Candidates, yeah.

In.

The queue. Do you label them? Do you remember which one is which?

Well, they all have beautiful labels. I mean, these are artisans who are creating these amazing things. So I would encourage everyone to try this hobby who's a guy. It's so much fun. I will give a shoutout to the companies that are the best. So the best company, in my opinion, is a company called... They just changed the name because you know what they're originally called? I'm not joking. Grooming Department. And now.

It's like- It's not a bad name.

Yeah, but it has certain connotations in contemporary discourse. In contemporary discourse. So Contemporary he changed- He changed his name to Ion, Skincare, A-I-O-N. That's the sense of the most sophisticated, the most sophisticated, and the soap is just really high quality. Another amazing company is amazing and Man. And if I'm going to tell you to try one, it's called Schesher. He comes out with new ones every month or so. A lot of it's lot a lot of it's lot of great, great quality stuff. Another great company is Chiseled Face. They make something called Midnight Stag, which basically smells like a garage. It's one of my favorite soaps of all time.

Yeah, what makes for a good smell for Michael smell I.

Have 67 answers. So some of.

Them smell - You can't convert.

It to - Some are citrusy, some are industrial, some-.

So garage is more industrial?

It smells like a garage, yeah. Midnight Stag, it smells like a garage. Some are fun because there's smells that smell like other things. For example, there's a scent in my queue called Finding Scotty. It smells like Swedish fish. Another great company is Phoenix Shaving, and they have one called Aloha, they it smells like Hawaii Punch. They had one called punch. They that they made for me special, smells like a ham. They had a ramen one, Rock and ramen, smells like a cup of noodles. So they're great. And every year they do an advent calendar where for an days you have a little sample of soap and a sample of the aftershave. Nice. Those are... I'm forgetting someone and I'm feeling angry that I'm doing it. But those are some of the... Oh, and Katie's bubbles is great. They're vegan out of New Jersey. They've got one New Jersey. They've to a grape. It smells like grape soda. I think those are the biggest names off the top of my head.

Will that list converge down to a small set eventually or no? 67 down to-.

Well, no, it's 67.

Oh, so it always 67.

Oh, Right. So if there's a slot, then you know what I mean? I'll fill what I mean? I'll fill that...

Oh, so you will forever have the variety of 67? Yes. You know how sad my brain is? When you were telling me this, I was like, I wonder how many.

Soaps.

Are left in Michael soaps life.

You can count your life by days, by months, by years, or by soaps.

That is depressing. That is very dark.

Because each experience of shaving is a little beautiful experience. Yes, it is. How many do you have left in your life, right?

That's true.

Yeah.

I got to tell you there's something else. There's a term something my friend, Jackie, taught me called touching pan. It's a makeup term. So basically, when you use it and you you see the bottom, that's like a big moment.

Oh, it's a great thing.

Yeah, it's a it was fun. I'm telling you, people can scoff. It is such a fun. It is a lot of us online who are into this whole space. It's really, really fun.

When did you first discover this?

Can I curse?

Yeah.

Fuck you, Cole Stryker. Because I was staying at my friend Cole's house in L. A. Fuck you, Cole. Fuck you, Cole. Cole is one of the biggest hipsters I know. He's got the shirts with the pearl snaps and everything. I'm staying at his house because I was doing house He goes, Oh, have you heard of this wet shaving thing? He goes, Look, this one's He That's the this one's Perrezo. Which is also a great one. I went down this rabbit hole and I don't even know how much money I spent on much and it's all because of him.

But it's like a him. Fuck you. Like a you, Cole.

I.

Love you, Cole.

Fuck you. Thank you.

Yes. That's a good idea for a tattoo. Fuck you, Cole. Do you have advice on how to be happy?

Yes.

There's a lot of loneliness and sadness in the world.

And I can give a very easy piece of advice that worked a lot for me. Instead of telling yourself that you have these ridiculous standards, tell have I can be tell yourself, I don't have to be a great writer. I could be a better writer. I don't have to be a great podcaster. That will never happen. I could be a better podcaster. I could be a better person. I could be a better at the gym. I could be better with my time. And when you regard things in those... And especially if you have metrics that you can go metrics I'll run this many miles a day, things you have control day, things as males, when you have this chart and the data is telling you you're improving, right telling it's like you have away sense of accomplishment. So I think that is a really great way to find. And if something is not work in your life, let's suppose you don't have friends, right? There's the internet. How do people make friends? Try things out. What's the worst that's going to happen? Worst it going to blow up in your face? Well, you in something, at least.

Don't be afraid of making mistakes. When I was a kid, I was so scared of having things under control. So I would never have to get hit in the to get And then I realized and you realize this as well, everyone who's important gets hit in the face. Look at the President, whoever the President the President, becomes a matter of being strong enough that you could take getting hit in the face. So that is a big, important switch in your thinking.

Yeah, there's a Bukowski quote I wrote down. Sometimes you climb out of bed in the morning and you think, I'm not going to make it. But you laugh inside remembering all the times you felt that way. Yeah. There's a part of me that's a part There's some days where I feel like this is the worst day of my the worst shortly.

After, I.

Think, chuckle at that. Yes. Just knowing the ups and downs of the brain and the mind and life and all that. You ever been depressed?

Yeah, of course. I'm more anxious than depressed. I don't really get depressed. Yeah, but I've been depressed.

Like low I've Yeah.

Depressed. Like low I distinguish depression between low points, right? If things are going bad and you feel bad, that makes sense. But when I think of depression, I think of someone who feels bad when things aren't bad. To me, it's almost by definition, irrational.

Well, yeah, and there's different kinds of... There's an exhausted depression where you're not so much sad as you don't want to do anything. You don't want to live. You don't want to... Live. You don't want What's the point? It's a.

Wrap, yeah. What's the point?

And an extreme self-critical negativity, which I'm also scared of because my brain is generally very my Because.

You're not taking self-critical. Because Do.

You take up magnesium. In the mouth?

You take in Okay. But as for the Magnesium, you should take it as a pill.

Okay. Well, the way your mom explains it then is way different. It then are you most afraid of?

Holy crap. I'm trying to think of anything I'm afraid of.

You know, in 1984?

I thought even just 1984?

I thought if I wanted to torture you, hypothetically.

Well, to torture Well, mission accomplished. You know Well, I accomplished. You know what? I mean, I'm scared of increasing authoritarianism, but that's not personal. And that's something that I don't think is as much of an imminent concern as, let's say, in Canada.

Are you scared of death?

No.

You scared of Kamu was.

Scared of death? No.

He just.

Accepted it as.

- Look, I honestly feel like if I died tomorrow, I did pretty good with what I had. I think I did things that matter to me. I think I moved the needle on things that matter to me. I think I've been a good friend to the people I care about. I've saved a couple of lives. Saved I think it's a very low bar for someone to be able to go their grave and say, I left the world a better place than I found it. I don't think it's that hard.

Don't think been betrayed?

Oh, God, yes, been betrayed? You?

Not as often as I would have predicted.

Yeah, the Russian upbringing, it's like expects everyone to be like just it's a time bomb before they betray you. I've been betrayed, of course. Yeah.

Yeah. Betrayed, of value loyalty?

I do. And I also made it a point to not let that betrayal color my future interactions and regard that as the universal or the norm.

Yeah.

I think that's very important.

Me too.

And also I feel bad. I've gotten Lex enough that I feel bad for the person who betrayed me because it's just like they didn't need to do this. And at some point, if you betray someone, you if and you know you're not a good person. I believe that.

Yeah.

Even if you tell yourself there's something I had to do, you still know you had to do a bad thing to someone who didn't deserve it. And that's a really hard pill to swallow.

In my situation, I still think In thoughts and.

Empathize.

With the people that have.

Done me wrong. I don't empathize with them, but I sympathize with them.

My English is not good enough to know the difference.

Empathizing means you're putting yourself on their you're putting means you feel bad for them and wish them well.

Them I wish them well.

Yeah, but I don't put myself... It's very hard for me to empathize with someone who betrays someone that they care betrays someone that is something... It's not that just I think I'm such a great think I'm that I feel guilt very strongly. So if I did that to someone who trusted me, it would fuck up my head for a long time.

Yeah, but maybe they were in pain. Maybe they were desperate. Maybe they were back to the wall.

They felt that way. Sure. They felt a sympathy thing, not really an empathy thing.

Yeah, yeah. Loyalty is a fascinating thing. Yes? I value trust a lot.

I know you do. Especially because you're in such a public, both of us were in very public positions. You have to be very careful who you surround yourself with.

It sucks.

Does it?

Well, it - It sucks because it's hard - It usually just trust everybody.

Okay, that's crazy.

But what's the alternative?

To have a filter?

Well, I have a filter in terms of who I interact with. Okay. But within the, I see the good in people. But then in the very rare instances, that might turn.

Okay.

And yeah, it just sucks. It breaks my heart.

Yeah, I hear you. I completely agree.

Has your heart ever been broken?

Yes.

Love?

Yes.

I'm just so relaxed right Yes. I'm just happy. Good. Relaxed and happy. Good. This is making me really happy.

Again, it's beautiful me eight different levels.

I think that's the deepest thing I'm thankful for. It's just how.

Beautiful people are.

How beautiful.

The world is.

People are going to world and I welcome it. That's fine. I really sometimes feel like the guy in American Beauty looking at the plastic bag, dancing in the the plastic brought to tears because of how much beautiful life is. A lot of people feel they need to sneer at that scene and Ricky Pits, whatever. I think he's got it exactly right.

I think he does, too. Well, in the end, you and I will be both laughing.

That's exact. Right. And also seeing beauty where others people see garbage. And I'd rather be the person who sees beauty than the person who sees garbage.

Than Well, when I look at you, I see I look most people see garbage. And it's really unfair, Mr. Parrott, that you keep saying that. What? All jokes aside, man, I'm really grateful for your friendship, and I'm really grateful for you and as a person. Thank you so much for talking today. Thank you so much for talking to me throughout all these years. Thank you for being who you are.

You are welcome.

Thanks for listening to.

This conversation with Michael Malis. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. Now, let me leave you with some words from Andre Guide. Man cannot discover new oceans unless he has the courage to lose sight of the shore. Thank you for listening and.

Hope to.

See you next time.