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We're back, I'm Drew McGarry, and I'm David Roth, and coming in September 20 20, a new site we have built together called Defector Defector. And we're going to have a new podcast to go with it. This very podcast which has the name The Distraction. It's out right now and it's available everywhere. Podcast at Stitcher, Spotify, Apple, Goldson. Listen right now to the distraction everywhere. It's out right now. Go listen to see by.


There she is. We didn't interrupt anything, did we? Listen, I like to be late. Oh, OK. I mean, I like to be early. I show up on time. I told all my kids punctuality is extremely important.


What does they say is the courtesy of Kingslake? It's a courtesy. Right. Yeah, I understood that phrase. By the way. It's the courtesy of Kings. If there's anybody in the planet who can be late, it's fucking king. Welcome to literally with me, Rob Lowe, our guest this week is Caitlyn Jenner.


I can't think of anybody who is more interesting, had more chapters, more ups and downs, more.


Just unbelievable life moments, choices than than Caitlin. I was out on the driving range hitting balls and she walked up in this amazing golf skirt and outfit and we started talking. And, of course, she was hitting the ball 10 times farther than me. And I was like, you need to be on the podcast.


You would be so interesting to talk to. And she did not disappoint. My favorite thing about her is how she just gets it and is also kind of slyly hilarious. So buckle your seat belts.


This is a really, really good talk with an extraordinary person. I have so much to talk about with you.


And then I'm going to go and you'll appreciate this because your golf swing is pretty fun. Excuse me. Spectacular. I'm going to stop using the F word. I'm going to stop. It's over. I'm banishing.


It will never happen. But anyway, go on. It's a family friendly show. So you're going to play golf? I'm going to go golf. How is your golf game, by the way?


Yeah, I you know, if it comes and goes, I'm always constantly trying new things, you know, you always want to get better, right?


Last year was a very tough year. I had shoulder surgery. You're and that was horrible. I mean, it was nine months. Not even swinging a club. I couldn't I couldn't do anything.


But the shoulder finally came back and just, you know, watching a YouTube video on golf swings, which there's a million of them out there. Oh, yeah.


This guy was talking about because I work with my hands, how my hands work in the swing.


And he showed this some stuff and oh, my God, it really worked. So actually, right now I'm hitting the ball extraordinarily well. So that's good. But who knows how long it's going to last?


You know, Rübig, every day's an adventure.


Were you ever the club champion that your club? No, I don't play too many tournaments. See, that's what people think. People think I'm like this most competitive person and, you know, because of my history. But I'm really not you know, I was true ordinarily competitive back in the day, you know. Yeah, I. I worked my ass off. Winning was extraordinarily important. But once that was over with, I kind of said to myself, you know what, I never want to put myself in a position like that again, where you're so obsessed with one area in your life and so competitive in one area life because there's so much more to life than that, than competition and this than that.


And so I kind of just turn that switch, that competitive switch off. I am still competitive with myself, like in golf.


You know, I like working on the game and I'm competitive with myself. And yeah, I get upset with myself. I hit a bad shot. Not terribly. I don't throw clubs or nothing. But, you know, inside I said, oh, you just you dummy, turn the shoulders a little bit more, don't be lazy or stuff like that. So I'm kind of competitive with myself. But as far as other people, you know, they all think, oh my gosh, you know, and plus I don't bet I never bet on anything.


I don't get betting. I don't get it. I don't get it either. I, I could walk through a casino every day of my life and never feel compelled to play any any of those games or bet I don't even understand them. Yeah. It's a it's a Nassau with a five way wager. It's like what.


Nassau with going to Nassau, Afghan one. I'm the exact same way. I don't I don't understand that. I don't gamble at all. I mean, in Vegas, if you're with a bunch of friends and you go to the blackjack table and take a hundred dollars and put it, you know, and play the five dollar table and see if you can win something, you always wind up losing anyway. But I figure that's about the extent of it, you know.


Yeah, I was trying to think also, by the way, of just how because I ran into you the other day and we haven't seen each other in years when I'm trying, I think of the first time.


But it's not really fair trying to figure out the first time I met you because you were such a part of my childhood. Oh, thanks.


No, no, I don't mean no. This is not about making you seem old.


It's not about making you seem old, Katelyn. OK, it's OK. It's it's a state. I've been around a long time. Yeah, you. That's a fact. Yeah. You've been around a long time.


I ate the Wheaties with you on the cover.


Yeah. Yes, yes I did all of that. That's when being on the Wheaties box meant something. Yeah, well I totally agree. Actually they had the cover of the Wheaties box as really.


A history goes back to the first real big guy was this guy, Jack Armstrong, all-American boy, and this is back in the 30s. It was General Mills second product, gold medal flour was General Mills, his first product.


Their second product was Wheaties. I mean, that's how far back it goes. Wow. And but Babe Ruth did commercials for them, radio commercials and stuff. And then a guy named Bob Richards, who was Olympic champion in fifty six in the pole vault, he did it for 13 years.


He did all sorts of fitness stuff with General Mills, this and that. And then they kind of dropped the whole program. For years and Bob Richards, obviously, he also ran the decathlon, so in 1976, he was around and he calls General Mills up and he says, you got to use this kid, you know, and then so they kind of kicked that program back in.


And I started out and did it for four years. Until then, they had Mary Lou Retton at the next Olympics. You know, they're five years. And then Mary Lou came in and did it. Yeah, but it was a good run.


I mean, we did a lot of things. I mean, where they had the Wheaty Sports Foundation, we did stuff kids. We did motivational films back then. They were films. Yeah, of course. Yeah.


And yeah, that was the best association as far as a commercial I have I ever had, because they did more as much for me as I hopefully did for them.


Yeah. That was that was a real moment in time. And you know, you have so many iconic images of yourself with a flag in Montreal Stadium that was a, you know, a once in a lifetime moment.


I want to hear the flag story.




Because nobody had ever done that before the flag. Nobody had done it in 1968. The only other one was George Foreman. George had won the boxing and that was the year with Tommie Smith and Lee Evans and protests and all that kind of stuff.


And George Foreman put up he had a little flag about this big and about that big. And after he won, it kind of held it up and went like this, OK, but that was the only time. And so and that was in 68.


This is seventy six, you know. And I wasn't planning on that. No. The finish line story. Nineteen seventy two, I went to two Olympics, right in 1972 in Munich, Germany, I was a nobody. I was 22 years old. I made it on the team, never thought I ever would. There's no pressure at me at the Games because nobody expected me to even be there. I wanted to get in the top ten. I got tenth and but at the finish line at fifteen hundred meters, which is the final event, I had won my heat and this guy took a picture of me crossing the finish line actually is a black and white and he had.


Won an award for this picture. Oh, and so he sent it to me, you know, and I thought this is a quote, it was just this floating across the finish line. And I'm seventy two hairs kind of long looking up into the expression on the face. The you could see the finish line right between my legs. It was like this perfect little shot, you know. So I took the picture and I had it blown up. And I had a quote I really liked superimposed over top of it, and then I was living in one hundred and forty five dollars a month apartment, not too big.


And I took it to the little couch I had, but I took it at night off, centered the picture off to the side, not in the center. Why? Because I want that picture. That same picture from nineteen seventy six, if I make it that far, I'm planning on it, but I want that same picture with the finish line between your legs going across the finish line, you know, and that because that's my final step.


I retire at that point. And so I'm coming down.


I'm just blitzing down the finish, you know, towards the finish line, going as hard as I possibly can. I have wanted to get over eight thousand six hundred points and and break the world record and beat the first guy over eight thousand six hundred and walk away.


And so I'm just boogie in it down that last straight. And I get to the finish line and my hands went up in the air and I let out this giant scream and my hands went up in the air and slowly, you know, coming to a stop in the first thing that went through my head.


Oh, my God, you missed the picture, I thought, because I hadn't even thought about it until all of a sudden I was slowing down and I'm thinking, oh my God, I just missed the picture. I kept my hands up in the air. My face is all contorted. I'm screaming. I'm kind of stumbling to a stop. No, I want that guy in seventy two who is just gliding across the finish line. And so I'm thinking to myself, yeah, that is the stupidest thing ever.


You know, here you are, you just won the games and you're thinking about the stupid picture I look at is that as I visualized every I visualize what the final picture would look like. Right.


Sure. And yeah. And so then all of a sudden this guy with two security guys on them, just as I stopped, starts coming up and banging into me. And once he got in his hand about an American flag. And he's putting this flag right in my face, like, take the flag, take the flag, and so I go, OK. And so I took the flag and two security guys carried him off. OK, you have to remember, this was 1976.


That was our bicentennial year. Our country. We were. This was three weeks after the biggest Fourth of July celebration this country's ever had. Patriotism, that is at its height. It's in Montreal. I would probably say 70, 80 percent of the people in the stands are Americans. American flags everywhere, our bicentennial year, all these things together. And now I got this flag in my hand. I got a camera because I did this show for the Canadian Film Board, which was the official documentary of After the Games, and it was called Visions of Eight.


And they took eight people from eight different countries and just really followed their experience. And I look at these guys and literally four or five feet in front of me is this lens looking right at me, you know, as I'm slowing down and I got this flag on my head and I'm thinking, do I put it up in the air?


A little hot dog?


You know, it's a little much. I know. A little hot. Yeah.


Yeah, it's kind of hot dog. I mean, I've never seen anybody at the finish line with the flag and but I thought, you know, maybe maybe I should just stay one time, put it up in the air. Yeah. And so I said, OK, here it goes. So anyway, I take the flight, I put it up near 80000 people, so crazy and I, I put it down, I kind of worked and I but that's enough.


And so I keep walking. One of the time I kind of punch this guy with the flag and that was it. And I thought, what I'll do is I'll wrap up the flag, go over to my back, because taking the victory lap with the flag, I thought it's just too much, you know, to do over the top.


Yeah, too over the top. And so anyway, I went over to my bag and I rolled it up and it put it in my bag. And then all of a sudden I hear these boos coming out of the stadium.


And I look up and and here's this guy sprinting across the infield, OK? And he's got two security guards after him and there's two security guards about 20 feet from me.


Tackle him, boom. Down he goes on the grass. And this guy is looking at me with this look on his face and what's he got in his hand?


A flag. And he just going on. Yeah, this is American flags everywhere. It's our bicentennial year.


So I look at him and he's got this terrible look on his face, know like there's so anyway, I run over, by the way, that that might be the worst French Canadian impersonator.


I just said, anyway, I run over and I run over and get his flag. And now I got two flags and I'm thinking, oh, well, and so do I rolled that one up and put it away and then took my victory lap without the flag.


But that kind of started the tradition of the flag at the finish line today. It's a little more than that. They got like their PR person standing right there with the flag and put it up and, you know, who's got the biggest flag and this and that. But that was very sponte spontaneous. I was not planning on doing that. I love.


But I also love yourself. Visualisation of of all like you like you're saying of everything that you could have been thinking at that moment.


You're like, I hope this picture looks because I totally understand that that's. Yeah, that's I mean, I visualize that picture. It was sitting this empty space on my wall for three years and I felt like kind of running back, you know, to the finish line and cross it a second time, you know, like a reshoot or no.


Yeah, yeah, I should. But I didn't, but I didn't. And then when I saw that picture was on the cover of Sports Illustrated next week, and I remember the caption next to it was all it said. All right. And big capitals. And I love the picture more than I did the other one because that was my emotions. That's how I felt at that time. Was this just a giant release that twelve years of my life and it was over and I did it.


I mean, that was that was a time when all of that meant it feels like so much more than it does now. Unfortunately. I agree.


Don't don't you think so? I mean, we all. The Olympics were. They were Olympics with capital, oh, yeah, the decathlon is the world's greatest athlete, that was that.


That was the phrase doesn't help my golf swing.


Yes, it doesn't like golf titles don't work out on a golf course. But anyway, go on.


Don't you tell the ball. Don't you know who's hitting you?


Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's going to be smacking, you know, it doesn't work. Yeah. Does doesn't work. Doesn't work. It's very humbling.


Wheaties box, all of that stuff. I just think that our, our, our culture was so much more focused on unified stuff like that.


The seventy six games was the highest rated Olympic Games of all time. I believe it. They were getting in the 70s shares what, 70 share. Yeah. Yeah. Like seventy two. OK, so four for people listening who are not hip to ratings. Yeah. So it's Caitlyn is saying a 70 share is what they got today. A hit show has a one point three rating.


One point three is a massive hit. It was a seven zero seventy seven.


Well you got to realize a couple of things.


What had happened in seventy two for years already, unfortunately with the Israeli thing, a sparked a lot of interest in the games and people were wondering what's going to happen here. Four years later, it was the last Olympics with no cable industry. Mm.


HBO didn't start I think until seventy eight. Seventy nine was ESPN started and then the cable industry came in and really fractionalized, the viewing audience gave them so many more options. But back then in seventy six it was just ABC, NBC and CBS and ABC had the games. It was Jim McKay. It was. They've been doing it for years.


Roone Arledge you know. Yeah, yeah. All those people. And you had the right time zones. Everything could be done live. That's a good point. In Montreal and being our bicentennial year, patriotism was very, very high at that time. And so you had all of these things together that everybody watched.


And now so when you're done with that, what did you think you're next because you knew you were going to retire? The one find that fascinating, that you knew no matter what that was, that you were moving on. What was the next move for you? You've just won the gold medal. You're the world's greatest athlete now. Do you have a did you have that moment of.


All right, now what? Actually, the next morning I got up. And I went into the bathroom. And the metal was sitting there on the bathroom counter. No closer. Took the mantle, picked it up, put it around my neck. Walk to the mirror, looked in the mirror. And I said to myself, oh, my God. What did you just do? Did I, on a personal note, did I build? This person, this image of Sobek.


That I'm stuck with him the rest of my life. Because there was a lot more to me than just. The games. And I got scared and I'm thinking, oh, God, you know. Maybe I'm stuck with this character, I'm playing, you know, for the rest of my life and there was so much more to me than just that. Now I look back on it many years later, not at the time, but I look back on that experience and you go like, why did you do that?


Know, why were you just so intense and trying to prove yourself and this and that? I was a dyslexic kid.


I didn't do well in school, especially grade school, because the words just didn't pop up off the piece of paper. And you're so scared to go to school because you're not a good reader, you know?


And then finally in fifth grade, I found sports and all of a sudden this was where I could go and, you know, feel good about myself, you know, go on the football field and take a guy who's a good student, good reader, and clean his clock, you know, and, you know, that's a good feeling when you're young, you know?


And I thought, I love this stuff, you know, but it kind of built up a pattern and not that I really thought about it.


Also having identity issues, you know, prove your masculinity, prove you're a man. Yeah.


All these types of things all combined into me becoming so obsessed with what I was doing if I didn't have all those things. I'm actually very happy for all those things because it made me who I am if I would have been average like anybody else.


OK, student, you know this that sports would have come along. It would not have been that important. You know, I didn't need sports.


I could do other things and and get recognition and feel good about myself, you know.


Remember the movie City Slickers? Billy Crystal? Yep. And Jack Palance and Billy Crystal are sitting around the campfire. And Billy Crystal says to the wise cowboy, you know, what's the secret to life?


Jack Palance looks over, goes one thing. And then carries on with the conversation. So you're kind of sitting there one day, so finally, Billy Crystal, eventually, a couple of seconds later, I say, well, what's the one thing? And he goes. That's for you to find out. Hmm, that is such a true statement. Everybody has their one thing in life, you know, that they just can't wait to get out of bed in the morning to go do it.


OK, mine happened to be in sports. That was my thing. But because of that, I could grow as a human being.


I could help the identity issues. I could help being dyslexic and go to college and do all the things I had to do.


But sports was my one thing where I could win.


I could conquer, I could learn about myself. I learned about hard work, about dedication, about all the things that go into something like that.


And I think that's a lesson for everybody. Everybody has. I was like, if it's taken away in one area of your life, OK, it's giving you even more in some other area, OK? Your job is to go find that other area. You may be a great musician.


You may be you may be dyslexic, but in your head you have phenomenal stories, you know, and a great storyteller, you know, can be in sports. It can be anything, dance, whatever. It may be an actor, you know, and you got to find that one thing, you know. And I was lucky I found it at a young age.


And we'll be right back after this. Everyone knows about the risks of driving drunk, you could get in a crash, people could get hurt, killed. But let's take a moment to look at some surprising statistics. OK, almost 29 people in the United States die every day. An alcohol impaired vehicle crashes, that's one person every 50 minutes. So even though drunk driving fatalities have fallen by a third in the last three decades, drunk driving crashes still claim more than 10000 lives a year.


And drunk driving can obviously have a big impact on your wallet, too. You could get arrested in Cuba, huge legal expenses. You could possibly even lose your job. So what can you do to prevent drunk driving? Plan a safe ride home before you start drinking. Designate a sober driver or call a taxi. If someone you know who's been drinking, take over the keys. And arrange for them to get a sober ride home. Because we all know the consequences of driving drunk.


But one thing is for sure. You're wrong if you think it's no big deal, drive sober or get pulled over. There it is, a win for the ages.


Tiger Woods is one of our most on spiring sports icons and his story. It comes with many chapters. I am deeply sorry for my irresponsible and selfish behavior, but here it is, the return to glory. And this is all-American.


A new series from Stitcher hosted by me, Jordan Bell. You realize Tiger Woods doesn't know who he is best in the history of golf? No question in my mind. And this season, with the help of journalist Albert Chen, we're asking, what if the story of Tiger Woods that the media has been telling? What if it's been completely wrong?


all-American Tiger is out now listen and stitcher Apple podcasts or your favorite podcast app. I'm fascinated with the notion that even then you knew that you were also another person. Yeah, oh, I know it since I was young. Yeah, but you didn't. And if you didn't talk about it. No, of course not. I mean, what what was that? When was the first time that you realized that you were different in that way? And what was that like growing up with that?


I mean, it'd be hard enough as an adult, but you had that awareness as as a kid, as a kid. I was never comfortable with my identity. Even as a very young kid. My parents would leave. I was fascinated by my sister's clothes about and never comfortable in my own shoes, fascinated with all that kind of stuff. But you keep your mouth shut. You know, this is I'm talking the 50s and 60s, you know.


Yeah. It wasn't even a word back then, you know.


So I just I, I found ways to just distract myself from those feelings.


Sports. What a great way to do that. You know, that's a good way to prove your manhood, you know. Yeah, but those feelings and I had times where it was worse sometimes where my identity was a little bit easier, but. It was always there. It's not like you can take two aspirin and get plenty of sleep and wake up the next morning and you're fine.


You know, it's always going to be there. You're kind of stuck with it. And for anybody who's struggling with something like this and every journey is different, it's how for me personally, how am I going to deal with this?


You know, and my story went on for a long, long, long, long, long, long, long time, you know, but it never, never, ever went away. I just tried to find ways to to distract myself, to not think about it, to do other things. And so I was fortunate after the games and now all of a sudden this was gone. And literally that night ABC came to me and says, hey, we want to talk.


And I me, I was living on ten thousand dollars a year and one hundred and forty five dollar a month apartment, OK, and trained my butt off and they, you know, they said, we want to talk to you. And I went, oh, my God. Well, I had this guy. You couldn't have a manager back then, you know, you couldn't have any of that stuff was true. You couldn't be proud of Yamata.


I never made no money out of that support. And so I had a guy that I was thinking, if I do do well and if somebody like calls after this is over with, you don't do it for those reasons.


But if it happens, you know. Yeah, I'm going to look into my future. Sure. And boy, ABC called and, you know, yeah, I started working right away and then, you know, so my distraction was just going to work, you know, now and then eventually became family.


It came all these other things when I. Which were a great distraction and of course, my kids yelled at me. Oh, is that all we were is a distraction?


No, no, no, no, no, no, no. It was a distraction for me who I was. You know, that was yeah. I loved being, you know, a dad.


I loved you. I had ten, ten kids raised six genetic four stap and raised these amazing, amazing kids. It's you know, it's what I've been able to accomplish and I'm very proud of that and proud of all my kids, all ten of them. They've all done amazing. And but I just got into all those other things and then here it was, you know, 50 years later. You know, all the kids are raised and I'm still dealing with myself, you know?


Did you did you ever have anybody you could you can share what you were going through with, like, really who who really knew who you were and what you were about? I almost called you. Just kidding.


I would have been there for you. Yeah, you would have been there for me. I know, Rob.


You know, I would have no, I had a couple of people honestly, I can through those years, I can count probably the other people on one hand, a couple of friends. It was always great. Talk to somebody about it, OK? Yeah, and I had one in particular girl named Wendy in New York, she worked for Good Morning America. We became friends. I kind of told her my story. And she was very open minded and good and decent.


And she told me her story, which was probably even more interesting.


But anyway, and so we just became and we talked over a 30 year period, you know, two or three times a week, almost every week. I could bring it out, married a couple times, a little bit with them, but not a lot, you know, but I could at least open up some with them. And so, no, there really wasn't anybody that I could really talk to. I got to about nineteen eighty four and I was really struggling with the issues from nineteen eighty four for a six year period to nineteen ninety.


Yeah. That six year period. I was a mess ok. I just got through my second divorce and I lived in Malibu right over that hill over there in a little dinky place. I literally stayed there for six years doing a little bit of work, but I wasn't even motivated about work. I could care less. And I for the first time got a therapist. Now you know how hard it is back in the 80s to find a therapist that deals with gender dysphoria.


OK, there's no way. Today, you get this little computer and you go to de de de de de de de, do you know a therapist gender? You have a thousand of them come up.


By the way, was that phrase was that phrase even in existence then?


We had had. Christine Jorgensen was the first one who was wound up in the media.


She was in the military, stationed overseas, came back as Christine Jorgensen and was kind of overwhelmed by the media coverage because she did not like it and did not want it. Just kind of like so many people. They just want to go on with their life. OK, yeah. I mean, it's so simple.


They want to blend in society and go on with their life and make something of themselves. And but also Renee Richards came out in nineteen seventy seven.


That was the first time I was ever aware of trans life death and she was the first one trans and she loved tennis but then wanted to play on the women's tour. And, you know, the media can be brutal. Right. Right, right. Yeah. And they were really quite tough on this subject. This issue is certainly not even close to where it is today. You know, I mean, this issue is out front. We can talk about that, too.


But back then and I I watched her and I was kind of amazed. At the guts, she had to do that. And, you know, I did meet her one time at an event. Couldn't talk to her about it. Hey, you know what, I'm dealing with the same. I got the same issues you do, except I'm kind of stuck. I don't even know how to deal with it. I had even been to a therapist about it.


Yeah. And anyway, so I just, you know, I just said hi and moved on. You know, I always regretted doing that.


And here's somebody I could talk to.


That was the person that was that was the moment. Hey, no, no, no. Yeah. It just I couldn't do it. I was too scared.


And so that's kind of where I was at.


So when I got into the 80s and just got through a second divorce, I, I was actually watching TV one night and on the news and they had a gender clinic in Orange County. And I went, oh, my God, there's a gender clinic over here, so I you know, back in those days, you call up information. No. Yeah, I remember those days. Yeah. For one one. Yeah. What city, please?


Yeah. Yeah, what city. And so I called and I got the name. Are they. They hook me up and so I, I didn't tell them who I was and I said I'm dealing with a lot of these issues. Do you have any therapies up in the L.A. area. Give me like four. One of them was a lady and I thought I'd much rather talk I couldn't talk to a guy about this. And so I called her up, went in and for the first time actually sat down and started talking about these issues.


So for about four and a half years, um, I just tried my best to deal with it. Honestly, I thought I would transition before I'm 40. You know, which would be, you know, ninety, nineteen ninety. And I was on hormones, I had my electrolysis done, so much of it done, I had so many things I had done and the media started. Kind of catching on. Bruce is looking a little different.


You know, I would crossdressing while but never, ever talk to anybody. My voice would give everything away as my voice kind of sucks from that standpoint. But there's nothing I can do it. And you know what?


I don't care anymore. So anyway, it is what it is. Hopefully you're not going to worry about the pitch. Hopefully I have something to say.


OK, so anyway, so I never talk to anybody. Never did anything. Never went anywhere.


Just drove around, you know, and I got pretty good at it. So I never got caught.


So you would go out as your true self. Yeah, but not but not really interact with with society. Not at all. Just to get to be at a hotel, giving a speech, go out late at night and, you know, walk around the hotel or walk around out. They have big gardens or, you know, certain hotels. I like better than others, but. Yeah, right. Yeah. Like the Opryland Hotel, a great place where you can walk around in there with all the bushes.


It's a beautiful place.


What I'm struck with, how lonely that must be. I mean, I, I'm just extraordinarily lonely. So much empathy and sympathy.


It's it makes perfect sense obviously when you tell the story. But hearing you talk about it, I'm just I'm overwhelmed with loneliness for you those years.


I was not a good parent. I had four kids. I was too busy struggling with my own issues and my own self. I very much regret that, that I wasn't there more for my young kids, you know. And so but I was extraordinary, though, I have always been. Because of who I am, always kind of been a loner. I trained for the games. By myself, yeah, by myself. I had a couple of friends near the end that would go training with me, but.


I didn't have a coach, I didn't have nothing, I was self-motivated, but I was very well coached. I trained with a lot of great athletes in individual events and but I basically did it on my own. Same same thing, and then I was alone all the way through those years, I've always felt I never felt like I fit in anywhere. I didn't fit in with the guys. I don't fit in with the girls. I'm kind of stuck here in the middle, you know.


Right. And that pattern still sets up where today I mean, even playing golf, most of the time, I play by myself. I like I like the peace and quiet. I like to work on the game. I go out and play five holes, three balls, a hole, not sure what. It's not too crowded. You can do that. I say I'd have everybody else's way. Once in a while. I'll play with somebody else, you know, but not that often.


I've just always been able to deal with things on my own. And same thing back in the 80s. Boy, was I a loner. It was very difficult. But then I got to eighty nine, I was thirty nine and. I thought I was going to transition before I'm 40 and I know why you've said what was it, about 40 that you that was like, this is what I'm going to transition. And then my other question is, did you always know that transitioning was going to be the ultimate end game for you?


Every journey is different. Every journey is different. You know, and this is my journey, my story. Everybody else has. There's no right way to do it. Right. OK, there's just no right way to do it. It's what's right for you. And I just I just couldn't go any further, I you know, and I thought to myself. You got to get on with life. You know, you're sitting in this little dinky leased house in.


And you're just rotting away, Bill. And so I need to get back out if I can't do this, because I can't do it. OK. I got to move on in life in about six months later. Because I never even went out. I was actually at a golf tournament. And Revera and Candice Garvey and Steve Garvey, of course, Janet Candice knew Chris and she was just in the middle or finishing up, hopefully this divorce. And she goes, oh, she can come down a mission that any way Chris winds up coming down there, I meet her and we hit it off, you know, from day one and.


We were married five and a half months later.


She had four kids, I had four kids, we tried our best to try to blend that family, never an easy job, almost.


It's easier to transition. Yeah, that's yeah, that's amazing. With the that now, oh, my God, but anyway, SCIAF story. So anyway, that's by the way, that's a hell of a side story. Yeah, I know. We're not going there.


I'm telling you, we don't need to go there yet. And so anyway, you know, we kind of blended this family the best we possibly could and we kind of came in and took over. She was just honestly a Beverly Hills housewife at the time, but she was always around very strong business people and had, you know, great skills. And she goes, we're firing everybody. And that works for me and we're getting you back to work.


And so she just started, you know, you know, getting the getting the ball rolling again, you know, because I had not for the last six years. And that part of the rest is history at that point. Yeah. Yeah. Literally this kind of history. Yeah. We kind of got the ball rolling and. Yeah.


So, you know, with a ball like an Indiana Jones down.


Rolling down behind you. Yeah. Yes, yeah. We're, we're the culture running from the ball you got rolling. Oh thanks.


I know but I remember saying to Cam one time about this is before anything. Something about close women's clothes and, you know, because she's always been there and looks at me, goes, well, you see, I am fashion. Amazing, and I went. You know what, you're right, know what you wear becomes fashion.


Yeah, it's like it's like Ty Cobb says it ain't bragging if you've done it. Yeah, I know. Yeah, it is. And I always remember that anyway. So, yeah, the family, you know, that was the next twenty three years. Then Chris and I had two kids, Kendall and Kylie. They've done OK for themselves. Yeah. This goes to seem to have done just fine. Yeah. You know what you can do.


Yeah. So she meets you at and I'm not putting words in your mouth from what you're telling me.


One of the lowest points of your life.


Big time. Yeah. And and how much is she aware.


It's almost like she kind of saved your life in a weird way, but also like it feels like how much is she aware?


And and because it it also takes you off the track, you're going go big to the 40 year old and it's 40 and I'm going to transition. Right. And and now you're going to be 50 in transition.


Didn't even think of that. I thought I just threw it out and threw it out. Yeah, I just I can't do it. I can't do it. I just can't do it. So let's do the best we can. I actually started working out more, started doing all kinds of stuff. I mean, I told Chris my issues, you know, but I never thought that at some point down the line, you know, twenty five years later that I would ever transition, you know, it was just wasn't a possibility.


I was in this I was going to be committed to the family. And but these are my issues. This is what I deal with. And, you know, if she was OK. And so we just went on with life and, you know, again, the distraction thing, which my kids hate when I see that, but it's not them a distraction from myself. Sure. And they were wonderful. I love being a parent. I love raising kids.


I love carpooling, taking them to school. So that really and that and work. And then we started doing the show. Everybody's working. It was you know, there were great years, great years and.


Hold that thought. We'll be right back. People who are alcoholics always have like that piece inside of them that that needs to be filled and we and we fill it with with drinking and drugs and things like that.


I'm stunned that that was never a part of your story and never did drugs, never was into alcohol. That's amazing how people I can see how people get into that. But I just never I. I always even I was struggling with all of these things and still today. I like myself and I don't need to take a chemical or a drug. To have a good time. You know, I just never needed that I'll deal with my issues on my own, if that's the case, I don't need something else.


I like being myself.


I can't when I find that fascinating. That is such a dichotomy. You're saying I like myself, I can be myself, but yet you also work with that doesn't mean doesn't mean dealing with yourself is easy.


And yet I didn't think it was at all possible at that those times in my life.


I just said, you know what, you idiot, you can't do it. You know, you just you can't do it. And that went on for years and years and years. After twenty three years, Chris and I went our separate directions, my identity. I don't it was not a big part of separating. That was so many other bigger issues out there.


And but that was just that was just the only thing.


I think because of my frustration with myself, I might have been a little bit shorter with her, you know, near the end. But there was a lot of where there was a lot of things going on. And then all of a sudden we didn't have any issues. You know, we just you know, it was calm, you know what, you know what's not working. I know it's not working. You go, you know, you have this house, I'll go find another place.


And she even found the place. She decorated the place. She did everything, you know, in Malibu. Right. And she said, I want you to feel comfortable. And that was it, you know. And so. And there I was. The this it was a nicer house, the least a beach house in Paradise Cove. Don't get any better than that. Nope, right on the bluff, looking out over the ocean. And there I was and I'm sitting there thinking I'm right back where I was before.


Back in Malibu. What the hell am I going to do with my life when I've been dealing with this stuff my entire life? You know, this is I'm like about 63 at the time. I look at it, too. I don't want to rot here in a I don't know, but it's so few people change anything at 63.


Yeah, I know you're kind of stuck in your ways. Yeah. And. You know, I. I thought, you know what? First thing I got to I got to get back into therapy, you know, and try to figure this thing out and found a lot easier to find. Therapist, it deals with the subject nowadays. Talk to her this and that, and I'm thinking. You know, and the big problem was the paparazzi and the media, they were all over you.


I mean, everybody watched that. Oh, all over now. All over me. Yeah. I mean, I would have four or five of them outside the gate. As soon as I came out, they would start following you. I mean, I had helicopters flying over Sherwood, you know? I mean, the list went on and on and on, and it was just. Horrible and writing all sorts of stupid stuff, I mean, going the grocery line and there's, you know, I think it was US magazine, some woman's body with my head on top.


You know, I'm going to say, Rob, I'm going at it and my kids got to see this. You know, and, you know, stupid pictures of me and, oh, it was just nobody knew what's going on and they're all wondering.


And it was just literally hell, you know, it was it was hell. My life was not my own. No, it wasn't. Remember, this was on my own and. In talking to my therapist. And then for the first time, transitioning actually became an option. One, I don't want to die that way. All right, I even thought about. And in the casket right in my will. OK, dress me in a really cute outfit in my casket because that's the way I want to go to heaven.


That's how bad you get with this stuff. You know, it's amazing.


Yeah. And it's amazing. And so.


I talked to my therapist and this and that, so I said first thing I got to do, I got to talk to all my kids. The only one up to that point I ever talked to was Kim. And Kim asked me nine months earlier, what the hell's going on with you? But at the time. I thought Kim's very open and direct and and I said, wow. We want to know she had her own house in Beverly Hills.


And I said, I come over the house and we'll sit down and talk. And so I sat down with her and told her my story. Really kind of shock, but very nice. And every time I told anybody it was like a million pounds, real official. Oh, it was just like, oh, I can breathe, you know, I'm free. I got somebody that I can actually talk to about the. She never brought the subject up again.


Kind of it bothered me that. She never, like, called and said, you know, are you OK or. We never, ever talked about that subject again, cut to nine months later. I brought it up to me and I said, we talked a long time ago, I said, but and then I never really heard from you again on this. And she goes. Honestly, and I respect her for her, she's I just didn't know how, if I should talk about it to makes perfect sense.


I mean, it makes perfect sense. So and I didn't bring this subject up anymore. And so she just never brought it up again.


And it's hard it's hard enough to talk to your parents, stepparents. Yeah. Sometimes you know the subjects way less fraught than transitioning. Yeah. Yeah. And so then I slowly over the next few months, brought every kid in, all 10 of them, one at a time. I didn't want them to all gang up on me.


Yeah. And one at a time I sat him down, told him what's going on. These are my options.


They all knew what's going on, you know, I mean, Brandon and Brody, their their mom had talked to them about the issues because she obviously knew and certain cases, same thing their mom, Christy, had talked to her about the issues. And Chris a little bit, I guess. And so we sat down and talked to him. I started with Brandon. Who's my musician, and I'm a very introspective musician, songwriter, producer, you know, he's one of those guys, you know, so I thought, yeah, I'll start with Brandon Hill.


Yeah, although we've never talked about it, I'm pretty sure his mother has talked to him about it. And so anyway, about three quarters of the way through the conversation. He says, I've always been so proud that you're my father, you know, he knows if I go to the airport and I show my I.D., they look at it and see Brandon Jenner. Oh, is your father Bruce Jenner? And he go, Yeah. And the people would say, you know, comes through here all the time.


He's always so nice. And this and that and on.


Always have nice things to say and see because I've always been so proud to be your son. And then he looks at me and he goes, but you know what? I've never been more proud of you than I am right now. Amazing, heavy stuff right over that one still makes you cry today. Yeah, and that was a good start, they might say, quite like that. They weren't all bad like that, but a good start. And I went through all 10 kids.


Was that the most surprising reaction you got? That was certainly the nicest reaction, you know. And still at this point, I didn't know if I could pull this thing off the last one. I had to go to, um, was my pastor. And I am a person, I don't go to church every day, but I mean, I'm a person of faith, believe in God, and if anybody has any challenges in life.


And they have any faith whatsoever in their soul. They always ask. Any evidence like God, why is there a reason for this? OK, why are these things inside me that I can't get rid of that I have a really hard time dealing with on? And am I doing? Is there a reason you put me on this earth? Am I doing the right thing? Right. You know, and you ask that question. And because you always think that, OK, that day you go up to the pearly gates, stand there in front of God and say, hey, did I do a good job?


You know, got it. And I did. I do OK, you know?


And I always wondered what his answer would be.


Oh, well, you know, you should have transitioned you could have changed the world. You could have did this. You could have done that. And. So I went to my pastor, I told him my whole story. He has seen a lot because the papers were all over the place and paparazzi's and this and that.


But I told him my story in God's eyes. How does he see me now?


And he says, God's love you on and on and on. I was thinking about all these things and I was into RC helicopters, these remote control, highly powerful, very quick, the hardest thing in the world to do. And I was because I needed to get out of the house.


And so that was one way I got out of the house work on these helicopters.


And so I was out in this open field. And I put the helicopter down and I'm thinking about what had happened the night before and I go for a walk. All by my little lonesome, out in the woods, through the trees. Maybe God did this because he wants me to. Make a change in the world. Make a difference. This is a big subject. Bigger than the games, bigger than all that sort of stuff, people don't die at the Olympic Games.


People are murdered for being trans. It's the most marginalized community in the world. It's totally misunderstood. Maybe me living my life authentically and trying to talk about this subject can bring some light to a lot of especially young people who are struggling. And because I had thought about suicide at times, you know, during over the last few years, I thought about that because the paparazzi were just so ridiculously bad, I thought that's kind of the easy way out.


But I can see how somebody would get to something like that.


And then I thought, you know, that would be the stupidest thing in the world to. Silence my voice. You know, I said that doesn't do anything, you know, it's a thing in the paper now, Bruce Jenner committed suicide. And then they go on to the next thing I said, so maybe. I stay here, my boy should be her. So that was kind of the turning point right there, that walk the walk in the woods after the conversation with your pastor.


Yeah, that was kind of the one. Yeah. That conversation with myself to say I don't want to silence my voice, OK? I have no idea what the reaction of people is going to be. You know, I I could be that is the biggest freak I've ever seen to, you know, oh, my God, trying to make a difference in the world, you know? Anyway, yeah. So I thought, OK, how do I do it?


My first phone call. Alan Nierop, come on. By the way, this is my publicist, Olivia Robb, who has worked with me for publicity forever and represented Bruce and then now Caitlin.


But I that's my favorite.


I thought you were going to tell me you went I called the Nobel Peace winning prize.


No, no, no. I called Alan Nierop. He could. I called Rob Lowe's publicist, Rob Lowe's publicist. See, back in the 80s when I was going through these struggling years and the media, I mean, it wasn't like it is today. They were wondering and Alan had just got you know, he went from being a secretary or whatever you do in the mailroom to becoming a an actual agent. And they gave me I was with Dale Olson and Dale Olson.


Oh, yes. We got some guys back then anyway, so.


And so I I had to tell them my story back in the 80s, you know, I said this is what's going on. I had my manager, my lawyer guy named Alan Rothenburg and Alan in the room back in the 80s. And I told him my story. This is what I'm dealing with because The New York Times is trying to do an article that I was a cross dresser.


Mm hmm. Because I had been on hormones.


Things are changing a little bit, this and that. And I said I just I can't do I can't have that come out. You know, I got all these other things that I'm doing. Can't have that come out so. Allen was able to shut The New York Times down by basically saying, I'm Bruce's publicist and are you kidding me?


Bruce Jenner, world's greatest athlete. Yeah, right. Jesus, don't write.


This is so stupid. And so he was able to shut it down. And then I didn't work for a long time, so I didn't use Roger's account. I ran saw Alan a couple of times, you know, at some event. But and then when I started doing Keeping Up, they had their own publicist. So I didn't need a publicist, so. Now, I didn't even I didn't know if he was even still at Rodgerson Cowan. So I just.


Call information. Roger Cowan, Beverly Hills. Just one second, Pernin secretary. Somebody picks up, I said, Alan Neuropathies, she goes just one second. Don't know why he's still here. Find out now. He's president of Rivasi.


He's not a cub reporter anymore. He's now the president of RNC.


And a boy, Alan, picks up the phone immediately because obviously he had been seeing all the crap that I've been going through over the last years and picks up immediately and says, how are you doing? I said, fine. I said, I need to talk to you. And he goes, OK, this is like Thursday, I'll be at your house on Saturday. So he came out to the beach house that I was leasing at the time and we sat down and I said if.


I was pretty sure I was going to do it, but I had to do it right. I had to do at least give it my best shot to try to do it right, because not just for me and my family. The two most important things, but for the community, you know, as such, I mean, we are bringing this issue forward. And so. I said to him, you know, we talked about how to do it, I suggested Vanity Fair as a print ad.


Just because they were very credible, but also they're a little on the edgy side, you know, they do some funky stuff, I thought that would be yeah.


And obviously we have to do something on television. We both loved Diane Sawyer. The because I had like this, I had to take this issue out of the gutter, out of the tabloids and do it on a hard news story on the network with a real news credible person. There was nobody better than Diane Sawyer. So we wound up putting those things together, you know, over the next couple of weeks. And I remember Alan calling me and saying, well, you got the cover of Vanity Fair.


Now I'm technically still Bruce at the time I go, Oh my God. And anyway, we put this whole thing together and it's been it's been great. Is it easy? No. Not even close. You know, you said. One set of circumstances. And one set of challenges, you replace it with a whole set of circumstances in a whole new set of challenges.


Life's not easy, you know. Yeah, but the bottom line is. I mean, that's pretty much what it comes down to. Yeah, there's times where, you know, things are tough for kids or this or that, but but the identity issues are all gone. Yeah, so I don't want to live my life, by the way, this has been. Such a magnificent talk, and I'm I'm blown I'm just blown away with the amount.


Because we didn't know each other that well, we would see each other, I've known of you obviously feel like I grow up, grew up with you like everybody in America. I was transfixed with the reintroduction to the real you and and thought it was so beautifully handled.


I'll never forget seeing the Vanity Fair cover ever so amazing cover. And but like that was.


OK, here's here's the deal on the Vanity Fair. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me about that, because that's a beautiful, amazing like a classic. So they say, I got Vanity Fair.


So I had a few things I had to do between now and then. And then Alan calls up and says, Annie Leibovitz is going to do. The photo shoot. Are you kidding me, Annie Leibovitz matter came out here now. At this point, Diane Sawyer hasn't even been on the air yet. OK, we're just planning all this sort of stuff because Ellen wanted. You know, Diane Sawyer and then like two months, three months, like two months later, then Vanity Fair and then two months after that, which they came to us eventually, we didn't know at the time, but the award would be my first public appearance.


And so. You won the Arthur Ashe Award for Courage anyway, so Annie Leibovitz comes to the house, I mean, I've got so much security around this house because nobody knows what's going on.


OK, I had to build a wall for like four months, five months around the front of my house because I was having paparazzi taking pictures from another hill. I live on top of a hill so I could even just walk out to my pool, you know, and when Annie came under complete, you know, secrecy that she was here, I mean, we built a studio in my garage, took all the cars out.


She built a studio down there and all this going on. I had never had my hair or my makeup done professionally. OK, at this point, I had a stylist come. And this is this is ridiculous. I'm the hardest thing in the world in the old days is like buying clothes. You know, you do it Zappos online or, you know, before that, you just it was so difficult when you're how Caitlyn, I'll tell you.


Well, always six, two, and then last physical, the lady said, your six one and I go. No, you're not. No, I'm not your manager, she goes, she goes, no, you're six one. I don't know. I'm not I've always been six to remeasure me, you know, get up there.


Yeah, six one. I'm thinking this is perfect. You know, I went an inch heel on the heel. Of course. Of course.


As one does. Yes. And I'm figured by the time I'm like 90, I'll be a perfect five, ten, five, eleven maybe. Yeah. So I'm going in the right direction anyway. Yes, yes.


Oh small voice, you name it. There's a million reasons. And so anyway, we take the picture and this and that and I don't see the picture. Buzz Bissinger, was that going to be doing the article? I was with Buzz. Eventually the two of us wound up doing the book together and The Secrets of My Life by Caitlyn Jenner. I'm very, very proud of that. And so. The first thing that hits is Diane Sawyer, yeah.


I'm sitting there, honestly, the only ones I'm worried about. OK, maybe I can take anything there, I'll go. I mean, if it's bad, I'll go hide. I'm good at that, but I'm worried for my children. And I'm sitting there on the couch. Chris got the live feed at East Coast Feed and so I could come on at six o'clock in the evening, so I go over there and I got all that side of the family, Kourtney, Kimberly, Khloe and Kendall entirely.


And I got Kylie sitting here, Kendall sitting here right beside me. I had not seen anything. Oh, the stress man.


That's I don't know what I trusted. Diane Sawyer and Mark Roberts, who is our producer. She was the best there, Grant. Yeah. And love him to death because I told him I don't want it just to be about me. I want it to be about this issue also, you know, how is this going to come out? It started off as a one hour show, but Diane said, I can't do this in one hour. So she went to the head of the network, said, I need two hours.


The guy goes, OK, that's what happens when you have Diane Sawyer doing, you know. Yeah. And so next thing you know, now she's got two hours to do this and a about. Fifteen minutes into it.


My I am sitting here with that side of the film of the Christian genocide, and I think you can easily say the most social media family in the world, they invented it.


Yes, they invented it. Did they? Or they didn't invent it. And and about 15 minutes into it, social media started in there going crazy. And of course, they're all sitting there with their phones, you know? And it was so positive. I remember the first celebrity to put something out was Lady Gaga. And I mean, then everybody, Elton John started doing stuff this, that the list went on, all the people that they are around, and it was all so positive.


And I really think candidly, Heidi, because those are the ones I'm really worried about because they're younger. Thought, you know, it's going to be OK. Well, right, my dad's going to be OK. Then I was in the other room across the hall. And Allan had come out and he's he's sitting at them in the kitchen on the computer waiting for the Vanity Fair hit online first. And so he's in the other room I'm shooting I am Kate Show, I did.


And so I'm doing hair and makeup. And kind of waiting to see if it's. When is it going to hit? And my phone rings and I look at Kendall. And she goes to Vanity Fair, covers out and I go, no way, and then Alan comes like 10 seconds later around the corner, he comes around the corner and it says it's out. That cover. Now, I had my kids, especially on the genocide, the boys.


Don't make it too like sexy, hot, you know, you're sixty five years old. I said, I get that, I get that. But we did take this one picture, good old Annie Leibovitz and this little kind of booster kind of shot. And even when I was taken, I'm thinking I know this son of a guns, they're going to say that's what they're going to use. Well, it's always it's always the last one.


I know. Welcome. Welcome to the to the female side. OK, they're going to put you in some little boost to the whole thing, OK? I said kind of get it. So. Anyway, I had not I had seen a picture, they had a couple of them that Annie had come out like a week before, I said these are probably some of the pictures. I don't know which one they're going to use, but these are some of the pictures.


And one of them was that shot. That picture was a big F you to the world. I have been through so much crap leading up to that. You know, sneaking around media press just horrible to me, you know? Was a couple of my boys didn't like that, like I thought it was a little too hot. No, but for me, I wanted it over the top. I said I saw that picture and I said, You know what?


That's exactly what I want to take this. Yeah, yeah, and and. That was it. I was out. Yeah, I was out, but. It was an iconic moment, it got the best cover of the year for like almost the decade, you know. Yeah, it was such an iconic cover and that was to me. I say to the rest of the world, this is what I've been through, I've been through so much stuff, you know, and, you know, it changed the narrative.


So Diane Sawyer changed the narrative. It changed the paparazzi's. They were still around, but they couldn't you know, they couldn't now make up stories and do this and that because I was honest that changed it there. And then when the Vanity Fair came out, it was the same thing. It it changed the narrative. Now they had to name Caitlyn and. People were very, very respectful. OK, how did you come up with the name?


How what was Katla? What was the genesis of Kaitlynn, the name? Do you know how difficult it is to name yourself? I can't even imagine to think about happened to like you could do a whole chapter on just try to figure out your name.


Also, you've had so many kids. You used up half the names you like. Yes, I have. Yes.


I had Heather, I had this I had that through the years, and Heather Gener Heather Gener is to battle of the network stars I lead on, but not told anybody that until after.


But. I had a few names on a list, and this was even after Diane Sawyer and all of that stuff. I still I but I had a couple of names and my assistant at the time. Didn't see that less. That was all in my head and said, you know, I always liked the name Caitlyn and but she spelled it see it l y in. And that was on my list, not spelt that way, but that was on my list of like the top two or three and I go.


I'm sitting there, is this a message from heaven saying, OK, and I just kind of said to myself. Let's move on to the next subject. So I say, so I'm talking to Kimberly. And about all of this and it's happening and she goes. Oh, my God, what do I call you? I said, well, my name is Caitlyn. And she comes, could you stayed with the kids? It's amazing and amazing, and I went, oh, no, I'm going with the sea.


Yes, I had to break it to her easily. I said there's got to be a little separation between church and state. I really got yeah, I would have been too much if I would have gone with the K, the media would have gone crazy. Yeah, but name so that was and eventually was just that's it done. Next subject. Now, I mean, it's well, we could go on all day, like we could go on a week when we don't want to go on and on.


They'll be a part, too, because I've always admired you so much. And and, you know, this is your story everybody is aware of. And yet nobody really knows me except nobody really knows you. And you hear the details like this is is riveting. I mean, I just sat here enthralled and I'm left with so much empathy for you and so much I'm I'm I'm just I'm so happy for you.


You know, it's it's nice. It's not easy being trans, especially in the public. It can be very tough. But the bottom line is when I get up in the morning. I don't know have any of these issues, I'm happy with myself. I've tried to do everything I can to try to make a change in the world. And then over the last five years, I realize that, you know what? I don't know if I can change the world no matter who I am.


You know, there's a lot of challenges, but you just try to do your best. So when you go up to the pearly gates and I said, hey, how did I do? And I hopefully says, well, you gave it a good shot.


You did a good job.


They'll be sending you to the VIP section.


Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I hope so. Pretty sure. Yeah. Good.


All right, Kaitlyn, thank you. All right. Well, I had fun. This is a blast. Thank you so much.


We'll stay in touch. Talk to you soon. All righty. Till then, goodbye, everybody.




How great was that? So fun to be a podcast host, I have to say, because you get people like Caitlyn on that, you feel like you know their story because she's been in the news for so long. And, you know, I knew Caitlyn when she was Bruce and knew that story, but didn't get to ask her questions that I haven't heard asked to her before and just have this long talk. That's not on some Diane Sawyer special, Chris.


Those are those are great. This podcast format allows a totally different experience.


And I just had a blast and found that entertaining and interesting.


And hopefully you guys did, too. Thanks for all the support and listening shows. Doing great. And you are a big part of it. So if you have subscribed, by the way, please do.


And every Thursday you'll get a little present, you'll wake up and there'll be a new episode. So I will see you next Thursday. And thank you for listening.


You have been listening to literally with Rob Lowe, produced and engineered by me, Devon Bryant, executive produced by Rob Lowe for low profile Adam Sachs and Jeff Ross at Team Coco and Collin Anderson and Chris Bannon at Stitcher. The supervising producer is Aaron Blair's talent producer, Jennifer Sampas. Please write and review the show on Apple podcast and remember to subscribe on Apple podcast, Stitcher or wherever you get your podcast. We're back, I'm Drew McGarry. And I'm David Roth.


We have a podcast going on right now. You never called Distraction that's available ever again, podcast at Sicher, Spotify, Apple, Gollust. And right now to the distraction. Right now it's out. Do it, please. This has been 18 cocoa production in association with Sketcher.