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There it is, a win for the ages. This is all American. A new series from Stitcher. You realize Tiger Woods doesn't know who he is best in the history of golf. No question in my mind. And this season we're asking, what if the story of Tiger Woods that the media has been telling? What if it's been completely wrong? Season one of all American premieres, August 20th. Subscribe or favorite now?


Oh, there you are. There you are. There you are. There you are. Where are you? I'm in a what do they call it? A where do they put like the one person during the State of the Union so that you survive a nuclear blast. Oh, unsecured location. Yes. Which happens to be my basement. Hi, welcome to the podcast. So there are certain people in a career that you are always affiliated with, people always think of you, you know, in the collaborations that you've done together.


And there's just something about Demi Moore above and beyond the fact that she's a tremendous movie star, fashion icon, author and has a new podcast called Dirty Diana.


Wow. Which is where our conversation begins. Provocateur. Headline grabber, all the things that we know about beautiful, great voices, all the things we know about to, but there's there's something about her that is always captured people's imagination. And two of the movies that we did together about last night and St. Elmo's Fire are, I think, kind of emblematic of a very specific time and place.


And so there's a lot to unpack with me.


So buckle up for this one.


This is this is this is, I think, the one you're waiting for, Demi Moore. When I read that you were doing this, I was like, oh, wait one fucking second, this is going to be my girl to me with that voice that the world loves and erotica. I'm fucking in. I'm in, I'm in it to win it.


But but it it is. But it's but it's your I thought you would like literally be reading something but you're performing, it's a performance series. It's, it's like is it not is it unfair to say it's like an what would have been a radio show in the thirties.


No, no, no. They are 100 percent. That is what it is. I mean, it's got all of the Foley sound. You know, you have to find the the way in which to help the audience move to being you're now in another room, you know, with sounds.


And what's interesting is after, you know, when I started to hear the episodes cut together, you know, there's subtle things as actors that we communicate that only through visual do you can you you know, that is kind of felt and, you know, and seen through a slight look where the voice may be, of course, expressing something different.


So it was a really interesting learning curve, you know, realizing that in some ways you have to be more literal.


Hmmm. I learned a lot from your podcast. And one is, like you said, the the Foley, by the way, for for the nonprofessionals out there. The Foley is when like you go into a studio and you make footsteps like all the stuff that you've ever seen on screen, half of it is never been recorded. It's been recorded afterward. And that that process is called foaling. And my favorite was the first time I ever went to a Foley stage watching a love scene being Foley.


So you can imagine what they do to create those love making noises.


And let me just say it's fucking gross and it can make you never want to see loss. So they take their own hands and they go, oh, by the way, I'm by the way, we did kiss our own hands.


We did. I mean it.


Oh, yes. What does it have to do? A few of those.


Can you can you just wait for. No, I'm not going to do it. I will. Come on.


Very it was very difficult trying to time some moments in the love scene that I had to do in this.


At least it's it's equally as awkward as doing it on film.


You know, this podcast is something that's really interesting and beautiful of Feste, who wrote it based this on her relationship with her husband.


And, you know, it's very, very personal. And I've never seen something written where it starts with the couple really fractured who end up coming together. So Shawna and her husband were at a really low place.


They had stopped having sex. Their relationship ended. They had no communication and certainly no communication about sex. And they ended their marriage. He had a girlfriend, she had a boyfriend, and they found their way back. And they today now have three, three kids. And he produced the podcast.


So it's there was something about that separate then, you know, just the aspect of the podcast being, you know, about looking at sex through the female gaze, because porn generally or erotica generally has been geared towards the male gaze and, you know, like it. It's filmed badly.


The stories are bad. I don't believe it. You know, we all know this like, you know, cookie cutter orgasm sound that's fake as fuck.


And so we want to have something that actually was an honest reflection of of what it is for a woman.


And, yeah, it's an it's an interesting thing because I realized we're not taught about orgasm. And I feel like young men, they figure it out.


Oh, we figure it out whether you figure it out. So then what happens is you're like, hey, I know how I work. You get with a girl, you don't know how she works. We require a little bit more finesse.


We don't know what how we work. You don't know how we work. And so then we're left where it's kind of quickly over and it's like, OK, that was it.


So it puts us already at a point of disconnection at the word go.


So if we were educated in a way that actually made this conversation.


Just more normal and more open, like understanding, like I sat in, I don't know if you you probably didn't, but I sat in on my kids sex ed class and I was like, they spoke about disease and fear of being pregnant.


Male orgasm because that gets you pregnant. And that was it.


I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Where's the other discussions I want to be in that?


I want to be in that eighth grade class where they hit you with that. With that. And then Demi Moore is in the back room. Wow.


Wow. Wait, what about my orgasm?


Hey, it's an important element in changing the future of this. That. Like, it's just it's really important. It's really important to kind of blast this wide open because there's a lot of conditioned shame that resides still.


And, you know, it's uncomfortable, it's an uncomfortable conversation for a lot of people. What's the what's the reaction been for you?


Like, what would have I know I would say the big thing that's come back is finally that's been one of them. I think we've been in quarantine.


So I've heard everything from the best sex I've had the whole quarantine to I now need a few minutes alone. But I think that those are the the lighthearted ones.


I think overall it's been extremely positive. I can't wait to go hear more of them. It's an amazing journey. And welcome to the podcast World.


Yes, it's great to have this new outlet in a different way to create we we have received offers to turn this into a show. And so that may very well happen. Awesome. Which would be which would be fun to you know, what we've never talked about, I don't think in any great detail is our mutual Aaron Sorkin experience and know we I watched, you know, a few Good Men is is one of those movies that, like the American president, like other movies, like when it's on your fucked, like if you God help you, if you're you have somewhere to be and you turn on the television and if you could mensen, it's over, you're done.


You're not going to be wherever you're going, you're done. And you're amazing at it. I don't even know if you knew that I that after the West Wing, Aaron and I did a a new version of a few good men on the West End.


I didn't I didn't know that.


Yes, we did 260 performances at the Royal Haymarket Theatre.


So I am very well versed in that. And you're so good in that. You're great in everything. But what's your take away?


Do you have any real memory of what you're your best if you.


I have like a you know, there's a few one I had to audition for a few good men.


Yes. Aaron, same with eight eight months pregnant, by the way. So I, I think I think I think Tom has expressed that he was like extremely like almost like embarrassed, uncomfortable, obviously, like you.


I had known him, you know, for a long time.


And so like seeing me in this huge belly, having to do the scenes was just it was just funny that was memorable.


And then, you know, was there and there was Aaron Sorkin there.


He was there a lot. Was he there at the audition?


No, he wasn't there for the at the audition because he read with me. He read he was my acting partner in the audition. Oh, wow. Well, that what are you, a Tom Cruise is your acting partner. So you did really in a better frame of mind.


Oh, yes.


It was a better audition for me than what I had to audition for Top Gun that I did really well on the audition and then tanked the screen test. We were.


How do you take a screen test? I don't know. I saw Top Gun. Were you, like in a green screen? In a jet? No, because you are playing the pilots, right? Yes.


I think I just like, got to in my head, got too nervous and tanked it.


You would have got the notion of you and Tom and Top Gun and Kelly McGillis is great, but that's a whole that's so good.


But you know what's interesting? The other thing about to go back to your question about other memorable moments, and I included it in my book, which is, you know, there was a real push from the executives for there to be a love scene between Tom and I and a few good men.


And just the subject matter and the whole tone, it was it was never there, you know, on Broadway or a no.


And it just wasn't right. It's what made it interesting is that it wasn't there, but that particular time period. And so there was an interview that Aaron gave, which I didn't know until I saw this later, where when he was being pushed to make a love scene and the executives said if there's not going to be a love scene, then what's Demi Moore doing in it?


She's like, essentially, why is there a woman in it?


What's the point? What's my value?


Which was so, I don't know, kind of indicative of the time period for, you know, but I just am so grateful that he he and Rob both stuck to the truth, keeping it, you know, authentic to what it should have been, which made it more interesting, you know, totally the the relationship.


It's one of those stories that, you know, is true from a studio executive at that era, some dude said that definitely, definitely it was like not at that.


Yeah, you're right. There was no reach for that. There's no reach then for those of you who are not doing the math on this.


Aaron Sorkin wrote West Wing wrote A few good men, wrote American president, and he's notorious and is a guest upcoming guest on the podcast. Here's what was interesting when I did West Wing, the. We would talk about a few good men because it's an iconic thing, the movie is iconic, but people forgot how iconic the play was before the movie.


The movie is taken up so much space and people's imagination, justifiably. It's you and Tom Giant stars and a huge Rob Ryan.


Jack. I mean, come on. Come on. And what is on that? Oh, my God.


It's the dinner I watch the other day. There's the scene I watched. You can have all the paperwork you want, but you're going to have to ask me nicely.


I'm sorry.


Oh, and like, you're right, you're in you're right there in like three steps behind Tom and all the coverage for this. Unbelievable.


Yes. It's so tense. I mean, it was so intense.


And what was what was it like to be there for Jack throwing down like that? You know what?


First of all, you know, when we look at actors that you when we just look up to and where you're you're being shown the right way to do something.


So big courtroom scene.


That was Jack's big day. They shot everything the other direction first. So it was like on the courtroom. He took the stand.


By the way, for those of you to a courtroom, scenes for actors and dinner table scenes are horrible because you have to shoot everybody. So think of how many people are in a courtroom so literally before Jack gets on camera. He's done it 60, 70 times, so many times.


So and, you know, doing all the different actors coverage.


And and he literally gave like a hundred and ten the entire fucking day.


No, like I mean, he I'm telling you, like, I kept thinking, wow, like he's going to lose his voice.


So what's there on camera was literally the end of the day. And and I'm sure that, you know, Rob may have, you know, given him the option and maybe he wanted it that way because it was such a big scene. But that was like one of those things where you just like looking at at someone that you really look up to where you just you just know, like that's somebody who's, like, showing you the right way to be there, showing up for the other actors generously, no matter who they are or where they're at.


And it was I just like had such appreciation for watching him that day and every day.


The only day that, you know, was interesting is that, you know, we know how much he loves the Lakers.


And there was a big day when they were going to what Magic Johnson was going to give the news conference that he was HIV positive.


So the sun was going down.


We're shooting the Guantanamo thing and we couldn't get Jack out of his trailer because he was, like, waiting. Yeah. And didn't want to miss that moment, I'm sure.


Other than that, it was just like great was easy, Jack. No pressure.


It's so funny because, you know, Jack, again, one of my idols, certainly, and coming up and even living and I think ended up living on Mulholland as a young actor because Jack lived on Mulholland and Warren Beatty lived on Mulholland. And I think I got Laker seats because that's what the kind of you build your life around, you know, what you think is cool and your heroes.


And and there's something about Jack who's who's cool personified. And somehow there's at least for me in my perception, there was always like it was surprising to me his workmanlike ethic with coolness, like you don't associate workmanlike. And and craftsmanship and humility. With cool, right? No, you're 100 percent right. Like you think of it as somebody who's breaking the rules. Yes.


Like, you know, oh, Jackie didn't show up till five o'clock every day, but everybody waited for him and oh, God, he came out of his trailer and he was drunk as a skunk. But, man, when the camera was on, he really put it together. All that bullshit.


You know, he and he definitely was not that he was highly professional, highly, you know, like he set a standard that you also wanted to, like, live up to, wanted to reach, which was great.


I'm inspired third hand hearing it, a story that happened many years ago.


It's like but you know, it's like those are the things where you just like you step back and just like feel such a depth of gratitude for all that we've experienced and seen and done.


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Tiger Woods is one of our most on spiring sports icons and his story. It comes with many chapters. I am deeply sorry for my irresponsible and selfish behavior, but here it is, the return to glory. And this is all-American, a new series from Stitcher hosted by me, Jordan Bell, you realize Tiger Woods doesn't know who he is best in the history of golf? No question in my mind. And this season, with the help of journalist Albert Chen, we're asking, what if the story of Tiger Woods that the media has been telling?


What if it's been completely wrong?


Season one of all American premieres, August 20th. Subscribe or favorite now? It's such sad news that our buddy George Walker has left us. I had no idea that he was sick. We had. I didn't either. Having just text exchanges.


Joel, Joel, for those of you, Joel directed St. Elmo's Fire, among other and Flatliners and Batman. And I mean and just on and on and on.


But he was a huge part of our life. And that's how you and I met yet in his office. First time ever remember seeing you actually is not true. I remember seeing you walk onto the lot.


So I was going to ask you this because there are I was going to ask you this. I was not going to ask you this for fear that you wouldn't remember the first time you saw me and my ego would be crushed. It might be possible.


I have some big I have big black spots, but I do have some I mean, some hard drive is just so full.


That I maybe that I've got to unload, I'm serious, there are there is like some gaps of shit I don't remember.


And then there's other stuff that I remember so detailed that it's like annoying. I know. Well, I remember the first time I saw you because I was so there was this script called saying was fire.


It was floating around and everybody it was a kind of an IT script and everybody loved it. But I fancied myself as a as a lead in movies already and wasn't going to be was it going to sully my hands with being an ensemble?


Certainly. And but I kept hearing about this. I kept hearing about this script in this script, in the script. I mean, I had just worked with the great Tony Richardson on Hotel New Hampshire.


Don't you know, I'm just going to be nominated for an Oscar. And of course. Did not think anybody saw it anyway, so it was very fancy and but then eventually it broke down and read the script and it was fucking great. And I really fell in love with the role of Billy Hicks, the drunken saxophone playing, womanizing.


Gee, I wonder why when I wonder what part of that I wonder what your draw was. I don't know. What do you think that was? Drunken, womanizing, music loving, big stretch. So I thought they wanted me to play the Judd Nelson role, but they were not interested in me.


And this is actually kind of a really. I didn't know that.


Oh, no, they did not. They couldn't comprehend that I could be a bad boy. I showed them, by the way, but they could not comprehend. Like I was like this preppy, pretty sort of well raised do Gooding, Ohio, like.


And so they were like not they weren't going to do it. So I had to go and meet. Joel wasn't really an magician, but I had to go in like kiss the ring for this fucking ensemble. So I go to the lot to me, Joel Schumacher, I look down, you know, Warner Brothers is that amazing, iconic lot. It's at the end of Blazing Saddles. It's iconic. There's something about that lot that is iconic and the sun is hitting the buildings perfectly.


And this woman walks out into the street. And I didn't realize it was you.


It was you. You were wearing your hair. And you need to explain this to me. You were. Do you know you're wearing your hair with no continue? OK, I'm telling you, there's you'll know like the story you told me about the studio executive, like when I tell you how you're wearing your hair, you're going to know it's true because I couldn't possibly make this up.


I mean, just knowing the time period, it's I just already imagining something that's so cringe. So.


No, no, it was it's I remember it. How many years later. So you did the right thing. Your hair was long as it always was.


And it was you had a big straw hat on either a cowboy hat or some kind of a big straw hat on top of your head, but your long hair underneath it was wrapped up at around half of an inch, basically hiding the hat. That's very funny. I can tell it like I know. Like, absolutely. Because I have done that before.


Just like just to like I mean, there I mean, there's a lot here, but, you know, like, I can tie it in a bow on the top of my head, but I'm like, I'm watching you do this right now.


This is oh my God, you should have done that. You should do me more hair magician. Was I was I thinking on this?


I mean, I remember you know, the big thing is when I came to meet Joel, I was fancying myself is like being kind of super cool.


And I was riding a motorcycle, of course, with no license because who saw the point that I know that was just a. Would you do that? I'm really I was also a little drunk.


It was drunk at the audition. I you were. Yeah, because they thought I was a square. So I brought I brought a physically brought a six pack. Into the audition, but all it made me do is want to pee the whole time. Yeah, I could see how that would happen, but it worked. They were like Joel was going for it. Joel. The other thing, Joel loved having you on the set.


The other thing I love about St Elmo's Fire is in this. Joel did this to the day he died. God bless him. Even the most recent photos I saw of Joel, he was the instigator of of a trend that didn't ever catch on. But he went down swinging with the trend. And the trend is multiple jackets layered upon each other. I mean, that's where if you notice in San Dimas fire, I have a Leevi jacket and a letterman's jacket on top of each other and on and on and on.


That was the worst thing. He was going to make that a national thing. It just never really happened.


And I don't think I don't know. There's some people that carry that on. I always you know, Jill, Jill always looked to me. Like Georgia O'Keeffe, yes. Yeah, he did. Look at Georgia O'Keeffe, his look.


Well, I. I am most grateful for him for sure.


And, you know, the other thing about Joel, and I'm sure that's what you're alluding to, because you write about it in your book, which, by the way, is fantastic, but you chose one of the people who is, you know, was in a responsible and you getting sober and you getting sober. You're the first person I ever know who ever knew who got sober. You were. And I don't know and I think I've told you this, but if I haven't, I mean, I can't tell you what that's meant to me and what it did mean to me.


And when it was time for me to get sober, I was like, you know, I had somebody that I could I you know, it worked for. I mean, I think having four people to know people who it worked, because, let's face it, a lot of times it doesn't and it doesn't take and all of those things. And I and I don't mean this the way it's going to sound, but I was like, fuck, if she can do it, anybody can do it.


And I only mean that because because because we were fucking wild and we were really we were super young. Which makes it hard to wrap your head around when that should be your time. Like, yeah, this is when we're like trying everything and, you know, look. Joel was doing for me what he couldn't do for himself because he got sober so many years later and I I didn't realize that obviously until he also got sober.


And but I you know, I had never had somebody really championed me. Like, there was no reason, like I didn't have any huge box office for him to really be sticking his neck out. It was an ensemble.


They could have definitely filled that with any any number of of young and up and coming actresses.


And, you know, the fact that he allowed me to start the movie with 15 days of sobriety that paid for me to have a companion and that companion they had to pay for for 24/7 for the entire shoot.


It just was not heard of, you know, like I think any body else, you know, there's a good chance I would have just been looked at as a liability.


One hundred percent of the number two choice. But meanwhile, I like it gave me something to value because I didn't value myself enough.


That is for sure to have any reason to be sober. So losing that and I said this in the book, I don't I don't know if I would have been able to do it like I didn't see myself as worth anything.


And so, you know, it's like I love hearing that that reflection supported you in seeing that it was possible, because I think we do help a lot of people even when we don't realize it or it's indirect and right. But it gives meaning and helps me to know the value of it. And as somebody who took a interesting detour away from being sober, you know, I really value it even more so now.


Let me let me ask you let me ask you something about that. And that's the other thing that's inspiring about you, is the only thing that's more inspiring about people than people getting sober are the people get sober, fall off the wagon and then get sober again. That's stud shit.


It's it's look, as you can imagine, in different ways, like opening the door because I have been sober more of my adult life than not, like practically all of it. I felt so stupid, like how stupid. Then I opened the store when I knew better, I knew that this just doesn't work.


I don't have an off switch.


I don't have the thing that that tells me, particularly with alcohol, that that I've had enough. I wish I did. I just don't.


And but when I open that door, knowing everything that I know it was, I felt I felt like I've got to figure out how to manage this. I have to figure out how to make it work, because if I've been stupid enough to open this door, I've got to prove it. And it made it harder to reach back. And it's not get sober. It's just even having to face. My choice. That's what it is, it's like my ego didn't want want to have to face what I the choice I had made, but I will say, you know, once I really turned around.


I'm it's just I'm so much more free. Does it feel different this time, though, like, um, I feel like I am staying closer to my support system. I'm more engaged. I feel like I always allowed for the principles, particularly through the the you know, through the program of AA.


But I know if I had if I had a step closer to the fellowship and meetings when it was presented to me, the idea of, you know, that maybe alcoholism is isn't a real thing. It's just about moderation. It wouldn't have even been something I would have entertained had I think people would have been like, why?


So I definitely feel a lot of appreciation. And and I also I mean, there's a part of me that can say, why did I need to do that?


But I accept that I did need to do it.


And for whatever reason and I am stronger, certainly I'm stronger and deeper within myself because of it.


It's it's great, I, I take. Great, I mean, it empathy, and it's I'm glad when I'm glad when people come back into the program in recovery and tell me what it's like out there so I don't have to go do it myself.


I had a really, really, really good friend, a really good friend who you mutually would know who was sober forever. And but he was young, really young, really young. And he was like, I just feel like I want to I mean, I've been sober. I get it. I'm not going to go use drugs or I don't want to do any of that. But like God, I'm young and I think I'm going to be working in Europe.


And, you know, it's like I can have a glass of wine at dinner or whatever.


And I'm like, OK, so. So this is my favorite. So on the flight to Europe to go work, he orders his first glass of wine. Within six months, he is in jail for biting a cop in the belly button, Yaser. Go figure.


So I'm like, OK, it's like you can almost like clockwork when somebody hits you with a you know, I was just thinking maybe when they hit you with that, you could almost start the stopwatch.


Yeah. I mean, I can say I didn't like the decline. Wasn't like immediate.


But that's the scariest part in a weird way. Right. Maybe the effort of negotiating, though, because I don't have a thing that helps me know, like how much is too much. So it's like that constant effort of negotiating like like, oh, you've had to well, maybe I can have, you know, and it's like the relief of it just being off the table.


It's just like, I don't need anything to have a good time, and I look, I have eight and a half years now and I had almost 20 before I open the door.


So every once in a while, certainly in the early days of this second go round, my you know, my ego really struggled with having to say, I've got 30 days.


I've got, you know, three months, six months. When I would I kept comparing, like, what I would have.


But I you know, I worked through I worked through that because what I do know is that life is happening for you, not to you. And and I just had to open myself up to see what it was trying to give me and as opposed to what I had lost.


And we'll be right back after this. Hey, y'all, LeVar Burton here and I am back with another season of short stories on LeVar Burton Reeds and LeVar Burton reads does exactly what it says on the label.


It's me reading short fiction aloud with some soundscapes and music. I read stories by your favorite authors like Neil Gaiman and Kurt Vonnegut, but I really enjoy introducing you to your next favorite author. There's a lot of speculative fiction, some literary fiction.


The only thing these stories have in common is that I love them and I hope you will, too.


I think for me, stories are fundamentally about human connection and we certainly could all use more of that these days.


You can start listening to season seven of LeVar Burton reads right now in Stitcher Apple podcast or wherever you get your listen on.


I think this is my favorite Demi Moore movie other than about last night. Listen, it always feels like about last night is a black hole that you never talk about. I never talk about. People never talk about. And yet it's fucking great. You like that movie, right?


I thought it was amazing. And and you know what? It really, you know, captured a time.


There's a I mean, there's so many people that it's that of a certain generation that it completely, you know, connected with represented. I mean, the moment when I say it's official, I've become my mother. I mean, like, I can't tell you how many people have have have like, identified with that.


You know, when I'm creeping out after the first time, you know, Danny and Debbie sleep together and I'm like trying to get out there, that was you know, that was really a different perspective than the guy slipping out.


You know, it was definitely, you know, an interesting statement of a different time trying to really reflect that women, you know. We're not just waiting for the man when it's true, then the sort of traditional roles were reversed, there's there's that great sequence that people quote to me all the time, although it's your your line that they quote where I'm suspicious and jealous that you may or may not have been having an affair with a guy at work.


And you're like, I don't really think it's any of your business. I'm like, well, did you sleep with him? And you're like, no, Dan, we were bowling partners. And I'm like, oh, see, I fucked up.


So it's like I'm cast in, like, the Shrew like role.


But I that's the one, you know, when people talk about 80s movies and Brat Pack stuff, and for me that's the one I want people to watch. I love seeing Elmo's fire. It's it's a different thing. But like about last night's a real movie. It's a real movie. It's the performance you're you're so good at. Elizabeth Perkins is is amazing.


Dick Youlus and Jim Jim Jim is born just so people for other people don't know.


And I thought it was a you know what I felt like it was for us a like a move to.


A grown up movie like we went in a way to like it went from being kids to grown up.


And you know what's amazing about that, though, to me, here's what's amazing. And you just said exactly what I always try to tell people and they can't wrap their minds about it. There was a time in the movie business. Where if you were a 20 something, you could not wait to graduate to reel movies. Or grown up movies. Those movies don't exist anymore now. I mean, look, we didn't have we didn't like we really didn't have a lot of young people in leads of movies like no, think about it.


I mean, we were doing these ensemble pieces, all the John Hughes stuff. But in general, we didn't have. Young people, so doing that, like getting into, like, the serious movies.


Exactly. Real movies are movies were never considered. And this is what's great about time. Time weeds out all the bullshit and you remember what's what's important or whatever.


But when we made those movies, nobody knows. The real people didn't give a fuck. They got bad reviews. They were looked at as teen movies and they weren't real movies. Real movies were Terms of Endearment, by the way. They are real movies. Those movies are amazing. But our movies weren't those the way they were like this like side hustle that the.


But I think that's a real reflection that that people of a certain age weren't valued. You know, it's like still a little bit of that, like hold over from, you know, when kids were still owned as opposed to being their own person. And so thereby there weren't really stories.


We were kind of the we were part of the beginning of stories about young people. And now you look at it. I mean. There there are a whole demographic that are, you know, served and served generously because about last night felt like we had graduated to the big leagues. I like we're are we are on we were on our way, we were going to do serious work and which of course happened. But but it it's the notion that those earlier movies were the minor leagues.


That's what's that's what's kind of amazing to. To look back, well, now we could look at that now, now, like there are barely movies at all, so we were death. All the movies that I the movies I grew up loving and the movies that inspired me would not be movies today. They if they were made at all, they would be an eight part. You're not making deliverance. Deliverance if they make deliverance today. It's an eight part Netflix show about a group of guys who get into it on the river.


That they'll make it deliverance totally gets made today, but it's not a summer movie made with five of the biggest stars, it's just not.


I mean, Terms of Endearment is not a summer release movie, Midnight Cowboy.


Oh, there's a movie. There's a movie that you would make for scale and maybe it gets picked up at Sundance. Maybe. Maybe if you're lucky.


And look, it's different time and I don't like it. I don't want to like, say one was better over the other. It's just it's definitely different. Yeah.


Like having something that's in a longer form which I actually haven't done yet, you know, doing something that's a limited series or I think is also kind of really amazing as an actor to be able to explore a character in a way that that, you know, evolves.


I mean, you've done it both in drama and in comedy. And I just haven't really explored that that format yet.


But I think I think there's something great about it. I don't know. What do you think, yes or no?


I do. I think I think that people I think the difference between sort of movie acting and. Vs. versus TV and theater acting in particular, is you're you're playing the character in a movie, you're living the character on television just because of the amount of hours that you physically are that person. You know, you're you're you know, what's going on in your personal life. It's like you're dealing with grief for your deal or your kid had a birthday party or you're late to do this like every every.


Iteration of life, you can imagine you're going to experience during the run of a television show, if it's long enough, there's only so much life experience that you're going to go through in the four months or six months of a movie. So you are truly living the character, which is which is I think, as you said, it's it's of equal, totally equal value.


And I agree that I don't want to be like the like the the OK, not all day is the movie because it's not it's not that there's there's so much good stuff that would never be done. But the notion that it's the same is is crazy gin's. So different. I mean, look, I said to my kids for years that the only thing in life that you can count on is change. Hmm, it's the only true constant. Yeah, and then which means we have to have the ability to change with the change and a lot of people I mean, everybody struggles that I struggle with it.


I'm not an early adapter to stuff. I'm not. And things happen so rapidly, like, in fact, I'm deeply suspicious.


Hence, I didn't ever want to do Planet Hollywood in the 80s. Like, I'm like such a curmudgeon that like anything sort of new fangled, by the way, curmudgeon in the word newfangled. I rest my fucking case.


Well, you look at look at that work I have to like though reflect back to you look at how many things though that you've explored and tried by you're, you know, going and doing theater, doing theater in another country, you know, like jumping in to do West Wing.


Like that was like at that moment that was like a really huge leap to step out from having just really been in film to do that.


And there's a lot from then jumping in, you know, to do Parks and Rec to doing this podcast. So you may come to it a little bit later, but you come to it.


Well, thank you.


Well, thank you. It's true. I mean, it's like. It's weird. I'm good at adapting and like to because I like the challenge and I like the uncertainty and I like the seeing if I can jump off the high dive of it, all of different things in career wise. And sometimes, by the way, sometimes it gets me into trouble. I mean, there are times when I famously did a song and dance number was Snow White at the Academy Awards.


They asked me to do it as I get this sounds really great and scary.


It was a fucking unmitigated disaster.


Oh, and you'll love this because you work with Barry Levinson and so on. So this is like it cuts both ways, right? Like being bold is really, really good. But then you also are bold and you find yourself in front of a billion people looking out at the audience doing a song and dance number with Snow White. And all you can see is Barry Levinson's face. And he's about to win eight Oscars for Rain Man, and his face is literally going.


What the fuck? That's what I saw looking at it very well, and then every year I get to be a punching bag when the Oscars roll around is like most embarrassing Oscars moments. I'm number one.


No one's actually you'd think that when they couldn't figure out how to actually announce the best picture, that maybe that might be more embarrassing.


No, there's there's a few.


I'm sure that you're you know, you're in some good company. There's no way there is some there are some good. But at the end, you know, you can't bat a thousand. You know, you can't that a thousand and you know, a 20. Twenty three year old kid is not going to say to Marvin Hamlisch, you know, who's won 17 Oscars for The Sting, and I don't think the lyrics to the song.


I think they're very good. Mr. Hamlisch.


It's not going to happen. Right. So, yeah, no, it's it's the lessons that we learn.


We could write a book why? We feel like it's like those are those beautiful gifts that are happening for you.


It was like a beautifully humbling, you know, humble, ego crushing, ego crushing gift. Right. Oh, yes, I mean, we all have and that's the other thing is if you haven't had your time in the barrel, you're not in the barrel. Like, if you don't go through your batting slump, you're not in the major leagues. It comes for everybody, right? Even even Robert Redford. Even like it doesn't matter what actor Jack Nicholson, who you are, you can look at anybody's filmography and go, wow, that's cold streak or and that's the gift of it, because if you're around long enough, the sheer math catches up with you.


Well, I, I think that's the thing in life that is, you know, part of the illusion that we think that it's you know, when you're sitting on the other side, you think it's like just about the winds when nothing is at nothing stays at that level. And if it did one, it would be really uninteresting. Like if you knew every time you were going to hit it out of the park, pretty soon it would be really boring.


It's like that great. That great episode of Twilight Zone with Sebastian Cabot, where the gambler has a heart attack in the casino and he wakes up in a room that's Whited is an all white casino. There are hot women everywhere. And he he's like, oh my God, this is everything I ever thought heaven would be. This is amazing. And he wins and he wins and he wins and finally goes to Sebastian Cabot, who's like this, like the emcee of the hostesses.


Hey, listen, I know that, you know, in heaven all your dreams come true, but it would really be interesting as a gambler, I need to feel the thing that there's a possibility that I might lose.


So if you could arrange that maybe every once in a while I could lose. And Sebastian Cabot looks, which is what makes you think this is heaven.


Yeah, that's and that that's it. Like it's you know, it I can certainly say, you know that my.


My crashes are by far where I've had the greatest, you know, enlightenment, the greatest awakening, the the greatest opportunity for knowing myself and facing myself and and loving and learning to love myself. It's not the winds are you know, what have made me. Get closer to feeling good about me. I mean, I feel good and it's nice, but it's it's you know, it's when I've been at my lowest that I feel like I, you know, have become my greatest.


So without it, you know, it would we would flatline in a way you wouldn't you're not alive.


So, I mean, this is why I love doing this podcast. I love it so much. I love to have people like you on who occupies such a such a big place and people's memory and consciousness. And then and then to be able to show the part of you that only people who really know you well ever get to see, you know, that part of you that I know and love, which is how unbelievably thoughtful you are and how hard you work on yourself and and have been since since since since day one.


And what an inspiration you've been to me. Thank you.


This has been everything I thought it would be and more really to have.


Wow, that was I hope that was as much fun for you guys as it was for me. I could have talked to her for another five days. There's just so much to cover and and just. Her life and my history with her and our similarities and what we've been through and but but I hope I hope it was what it was for you. Pulling up a chair and being a fly on the wall of two old friends who've been through the wars together.


I'm really proud of that episode. That was really fun and a blast.


And thank you for being part of it. Thank you for listening. And if you enjoyed it, go and give us a rating. Those ratings mean a lot. And I read them. She better be nice. Sometimes your emails attached, I'm not saying I'll I'll reach out to you, but I might see next week on literally Ravello. You have been listening to literally with Rob Lowe, produced and engineered by me, Devon Tory Bryant, executive produced by Rob Lowe for low profile Adam Sachs and Jeff Ross at Team Coco and Colin Anderson and Chris Bannon at Stitcher.


The supervising producer is Aaron Blair's talent producer, Jennifer Sanders. Please write and review the show on Apple podcast and remember to subscribe on Apple podcast, Stitcher or wherever you get your podcast. This has been a team cocoa production in association with Sketcher.