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The sky sale is now on, and who doesn't need a pick me up at this time of year? So get award winning Sky TV and our best ever Wi-Fi with ultra fast broadband together from just 50 euros a month for 12 months. Well, that's nice. That's a feel good saving from us. So save big on the sky sale search sky 50 today, new Sky customers only availability subject to location, minimum term and further terms applied. For more info, see Skydeck reports.


What's happening also, Rob, you look like you've either been on lying on the beach or you've been more like on the golf course, on the golf course. I knew it. Welcome to Literally with Rob Lowe and thank you all for the support of the show. It's just been going great and the only reason it's going great is because you're listening. So thank you in advance for the support.


Today is a really good one. I'm just going to warn you, it's good. So pull up a chair, pull over to the side of the road. This is a really unexpectedly different talk with somebody who I've just been a fan of forever because he's a groundbreaker and his field is hilarious. And, you know, I love funny people. If you've been listening to the podcast, but funny and thoughtful are of really, really rare combination. And you're going to hear stories about this man's life that are just beyond belief.


So I'm really happy to share with you my inspiring and funny talk with George Lopez.


What's your handicap? What do you plan to these days? I think it's about a good 11. Mm hmm. But, you know, I've been playing since eighty one. And and, you know, I used to say, like, I don't play for or the score I play for the the temperament because I had a really bad temperament growing up, but it helped me kind of rewire myself where I wouldn't, you know, throw things or wouldn't let it affect the next shot.


And that's a huge part of what I what I think helped me in business. Because, you know, we come from a culture where if two people got in a fight, they might not ever talk again in their whole life. They might they might be too proud to say, hey, man, you know, I was wrong or, you know, kind of talk to you for a second. You know, that fight we've got into? You know, I don't you know, I don't know if you realize you hurt me when you said this.


None of that happened because people would just ignore each other for maybe. Maybe the rest of their lives, so I didn't want to I didn't want to do that, and I saw that growing up where people just kind of remove people from their lives and golf, it just kind of it was so difficult for me to get a hold of so far on a game that I liked it. And all of the traits that I think, you know, either my baseball coach told me was wrong with me or my little league coach, something was wrong with me, all kind of came together.


When I started to play golf, I quit, I cheated. So what do you take on that? All you know? I had a six to six, let me say. And really, when you realize that you're only cheating yourself, you start to realize that the score is an important but like the the rules of golf, the integrity, not moving the ball, not looking to see around if anybody's around, rolling it over and stuff like that.


And I had a lot of those those things early on. We were always trying to get by on people and golf completely, completely eliminated that from my life.


That's amazing. It's such a great articulation of, I think, why the game is becomes an obsession for people, because a lot of people probably right now is listening to this podcast or hitting the forward button. I hate golf. And one of the going to talk about the George Lopez Show, that was my favorite show in the world. What are these guys doing? Let's move on to things.


But it's that's such a great articulation of it, because that's why we love it. That's exactly why we love it.


And then you go into the George Lopez Show when when I heard about other kids, I mean, I was almost the last comedian to get a shot and all you really wanted was a shot. You know, everybody was like, you know, whether it's a boxer, whether it's an actor, you just want a shot. You know, I would say I never did this because they made movies. I never thought I could have been a contender. But I saw guys go in the machine and out of the machine in a span of like two months and then never get back to that level again.


You know, I played golf with a friend of mine who was so naive that when things started to happen for him, he wasn't prepared for either. The change that showbusiness brings, the almost like deceit of people who are kind of working behind you to maybe they might say, hey, maybe this guy is not as good an actor as we thought it might be. You know, sometimes comedians can act. Who's going to tell them it's going to get and he just kind of got in and got spit out and never got back to that to that level.


So by the time that I got to have an opportunity. Because of I think because of golf, I wanted to fight everybody, and then I had a producer, the city manager, then you need to relax and then if there's an issue, I'll tell you if you should get upset or I'll tell you not to worry about something. And instead of it driving me crazy, I kept like a very calm demeanor. And I just did my work and I didn't feel like everybody was out to get me.


And I didn't feel like we ever had a problem that could be resolved. And I never felt like I was either lucky to be there or I didn't think like I didn't deserve it. I've done my I've done my work just like somebody preparing for anything. And I think golf you had balls and you go and you keep going by yourself. And, you know, I wrote all the time at home and I went to the clubs all the time.


I didn't hang around the club like a lot of guys did. I thought that kind of diminished your your impact if a guy went and did it set but then hung around three hours or waited for people to walk out and say, hey, man, you were great. I was in and I was out. And I think all of those things. Prepared me for something that I never even thought I would have an opportunity to do so when I did it, I wasn't overwhelmed by it.


When you were so when you were coming up in that era and as you said, people people got the shot like what the first shot will be what you're going on. Carson would that be like the first like walk me through how you end up going to getting to the point where they go, hey, man, we want to build a show around. So first of all, that's the shot of shots.


Yeah. Yeah. Johnny Carson was around all of those years. It's a matter of fact, growing up, you know, being an only child, you would see either I mean, like names like you see Bill Cosby there. But Reynolds was a great storyteller there. Oh, yeah. Oh, you kidding? Yes. He was like even that commercial, he would come back from commercial and everybody would be laughing. And Johnny Carson would say Burt Reynolds is telling some off color jokes to the audience, but it was kind of legendary.


Oh, yeah. So so you see all of those things and without, you know, I mean, social media and all those other distractions, that that's what everybody was watching. So to see all of that, to see the star, to see Johnny Carson, to to know that for a comedian, that was the high the high mark. Eddie Murphy did it. Leno, Letterman, Jimmy Walker, all of the guy Drew Carey was. Drew Carey did it.


Drew Carey was living in his car. He got a chance to do The Tonight Show. He was incredible. And so, you know, so innocent and funny and unassuming and he couldn't believe it. So after he's done, he's standing there. And Johnny Carson is way but I'm over, which is like the best thing that ever happened. And Drew's like me and he's like, come over.


And he was just so sweet that the next day he was he was a huge star literally in those days, because in those days TV was such, the ratings were such. And the people who are watching that, it literally overnight you were a star overnight there. So he had to deal. He started to do a show, started work at Warner Brothers on the show. He sold it to ABC. And all of a sudden, you know, you're so proud of this guy and you're guys like one of us, but not all of us get that opportunity.


So I remember that I was working at the maximum hotel in the Playboy Girls of Rock and Roll in nineteen eighty eight.


And that's what that sounds like, the best job. That sounds like what you would like for me.


Like I would go on Carson hoping I get that job right. Well so there's nudity then. There's I yes. For seven minutes and then there's more nudity and then there's another comedian. Then everybody who was nude comes back on stage for one last number and the show over.


It's amazing that to me that would have been the shot. I'd have been like I've made I don't need to do anything more.


So, so, so in that so in that I remember I was looking at the life section of USA Today and Johnny Carson had announced his retirement and it said that they would be six six more people that would be on the show between July of ninety and and may have of ninety one when he was going to retire. I remember all of a sudden it becomes like Willy Wonka, you know, there's six tickets, six new guys. And I'm not thinking I'm in a hotel in Las Vegas and I'm not thinking I'm going to be that guy because I was kind of what I never wanted to be was a guy who only could make money on the road.


So as I read that, I thought, wow, that's amazing. It's like Willy Wonka. So somehow I get back in L.A. and Jerry Seinfeld's manager, Shapiro was George Shapiro and Howard W Seinfeld was on and they saw me and they were kind of interested in me. And then the guy, Jim McCauley from The Tonight Show was there. And then I was as I was showcasing Macaulay says to George, Are you representing this kid? And he's like, we're thinking about it.


Well, if you do tell him, you know, I think it's interesting, he should prepare some stuff and and, you know, give us a call. So when I got off, they said, hey, we got to The Tonight Show. They they were just standing next to the guy from the show. But then I spent a week working on.


By the way, let me just pause you right there for people who are not in show business, you just heard great show business distilled down to the perfect story. The guy from The Tonight Show says he should prepare something will be interested. The people in show biz tell George he's got The Tonight Show right. And that's to do with it.


All they were doing was standing next to the guy from The Tonight Show that that's show business in a nutshell. Continue. This story is amazing. So I go.


So I prepare. For a week, 10 days, 10 hours a day, I fall asleep with the notes on my chest, I wake up, I keep writing, so I go to McCauley's office and it's there on Burbank, right across the street from Dorita Schnitzel in Burbank, where all the great art happens. Yes, of course there are. Wienerschnitzel started, right. Johnny Carson did that. So I literally go to the guy's office and it's like me and you right now.


And he's standing behind a desk and he goes, OK, let's see what you got. And I'm by myself. And I just start talking with this material that I presented and he's done. He doesn't laugh. It's just sitting there. And at the end he goes, OK, at the beginning, I don't like the beginning, but move the metal to the front and then move the ending story to the middle and then find an ending and do it for a week and come back.


So I went back to this place on Bahram that I was living, worked on it again. And by chance I was at the Improv like a week later. And he walks in and walks over to me and he says, Hey, are you going to do any of the stuff that I asked you to do? And I said, Yeah, I can do it, I'll do it. So it's one of those, Nitra, that that the audience is a little bit higher.


They're a little bit more energetic. I go up there and I catch it. You know, I catch seven minutes of it. And when I walk off, he follows me into the hallway six out of San Diego State regulations. You know, you got The Tonight Show. I was like, wow, I got this rap. So then I get bumped by Bill Cosby. It's it's it's November of ninety one. I get bumped by Bill Cosby.


And usually, you know, they said, hey, man, you got bumped.


And then and by the way, with that, that means the showbiz people is like you would go there. But if you were not maybe quite at a particular level of fame, there was always that chance that the show ran long. You weren't going to be on it your bottom. So when when Big Bill Cosby comes on and you're just brand new George Lopez, you know, you're so now danger. So now every comedian said, man, I got bumped and I never got on.


And, you know, I was going to go on and I got bumped and I never got on. So I was like, man, it's not going to happen. So two days later, they call me again. They go, Hey, you got next week.


So it's my it's it's Bob Newhart, myself and Lisa Stansfield who had that song been around the world being around the hell.


Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.


So so it's us three. I go over there, I do The Tonight Show with Bob Newhart and who's, you know, 90 at that time.


And I mean so you like. Wow. And Liza was hot outside. Johnny was and I did it man. And Johnny, you know, at that time I think it was getting death threats. So he was being followed by the Burbank police.


So in the hallway after the show to go away, who is to kill Johnny Carson other than Jay Leno? I mean, obviously, we know we know Jay tried to kill him for years. We know that. Yeah, that's a great.


But so, so so to Burbank. Please come around the corner and then here comes this little man in these in these real suits, you know, polyester. I mean, clearly polyester with the pockets, with the flaps over the pockets. And it's Johnny and they say, clear the hall. But then I go stand in my in the doorway because I was just on the show. So I'm like, I'm going to the doorway. So the two cops come by.


Here comes Johnny Carson's tiny is older and then two other police and he stops at my at my door where there and extends his hand as a young man. Nice job. Jim was telling me about his. Nice to have you on the show. And maybe you can come back on before I leave again. But I enjoyed having you on and I was just like back and believe it, you know. Wow, that's. And he had these liver spots, Rob.


You know, I looked at his hand. He had these liver spots on the side. I mean I mean, imagine looking at Johnny Carson like this close to you. And I do this like a foot and a half away. He had these liver spots on his forehead and he had the little comb over. And and I was just like, I'm taking in every line and every liver spot on Johnny Carson's face because, you know, that's the only other time I saw him.


But it was kind of an amazing and it's a good lesson for further other celebrities who may be listening to the podcast. Like when you meet your fans, they're looking at your liver spots. Let's let's just try. I mean, they may be telling you they love the West Wing or the George Lopez Show, but they're really doing is counting the liver spots.


And that's well, you know, they've always been a very attractive person. So I go to Houston and Atlanta, Houston, and the driver says, as we're at the red light, the driver says this place across the street has the most incredible barbecue my shows on. We're doing a concert in Houston. I go, let's go in there. I go in there as I get to the cash register, the woman says. I mean, you're on TV, I say, yes, I am, and she looks at me and she goes, Wow, you look you look different.


You should stay on TV. That's what she said.


You should stay on TV. Stay on TV. Oh, my God. I said, wow, man.


Hold that thought. We'll be right back. The sky sale is now on, and who doesn't need a pick me up at this time of year? So get award winning Sky TV and our best ever Wi-Fi with ultra fast broadband together from just 50 euros a month for 12 months. Well, that's nice. That's a feel good saving from us. So save big on the sky sale search sky 50 today, new Sky customers only availability subject to location, minimum term and further terms.


Apply for more info. See Skydeck reports. Love Speech. Well, we have another fantastic Team Coco podcast that it's on its way to you.


And it is called Why Won't You Date Me by the hilarious comedian Nicole Byer, Nicole has been single and has been for decades.


She has been single. She has been for decades. Now she is single and she will be for decades. That's not very nice to say. I don't know why they gave me this treat. It doesn't make her sound like a kind of person I would listen to for dating advice.


If she's single this whole time. What is the point? I don't understand. But I think that's probably exactly why she's hilarious and why this is going to be great, but it's it's it's hilarious stuff, you know, first date horror stories, sex, capades gone wrong. Yes.


I will be listening now that I know that there's that part. She's got great guest, Rachel Bloom, Whitney Cummings, Conan O'Brien.


I hear he's funny. Plus, they'll be professional dating coaches, matchmakers and relationship therapist. I hope she's paying attention to the people she's having on the show. Still single after all these years anyway, subscribe to Why Won't You Date Me with Nicole Byer on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher or wherever you get your podcasts?


There's so much of that stuff that I mean, I think you're great at what you do, but there's so much of that stuff that you live with every day and. It's things you can't believe that there's not many things that can't believe you can't believe happened in your career, but there's things you can't believe that people would say to somebody never having ever seen them before. Oh, for sure.


My friend David Crosby has a philosophy on that.


And, you know, David, David feels like, you know, David's been an icon, a musical icon since 1960, what, 65, whatever, and still is. And he has a philosophy. And he also looks very specific.


I mean, like there's no like, you know, when you've seen David Crosby, right? Yeah. And his thing is that he feels like when he shows up in people in people's lives that that it short circuits there. I believe it actually short circuits their reality because I've existed in a two dimensional form either on is it with the music or a photo or an interview. It's two dimensional and now I'm three dimensional and I'm in front of somebody and they're literally they're reality.


He is so challenged that they will say anything, and I'd like to it'd be great to do a book of of quotes of of like that of you should stay on television.


Maybe you and I should just do that book. That's a great title. You have to stand for the same people. Yeah. You know, it's interesting because because of you know, I spent a lot of time alone. I grew up in San Fernando Mission is my mother didn't know my biological father. My mother was not healthy and my grandfather wasn't biological. My grandmother was kind of this kind of tough on me. But they worked all the time.


And it's almost like, you know, there's no reason why a kid who spent so much time alone would never succeed at anything.


I mean, I don't think anybody expected anything from me. But in watching TV and in watching those those things and in not having either family or not having a male figure, you know, when I started to play golf on a dare. Those clubs, and by temperament and the cheating and the leaving and the quitting. Almost became a surrogate family, and, you know, if I hadn't have played golf, if I hadn't of, you know, learned those hard lessons, I'm not sure that I would be where I where I am.


You know, I always felt different from the guys that I grew up with, not better. I just felt different. And, you know, I told the story that a baseball coach gave me, you know, he bought some equipment at San Fernando High and he gave us these booklets of carwash tickets to sell. But I didn't sell any because I wasn't a salesman. I was very introverted. And and then he says, you owe me you owe me three hundred dollars.


I go, for what? Or the tickets. I said I didn't sell. And he goes, Well, you know, you're responsible because, you know, this is not going to pay for itself. So he and I got into a big fight and he was the first guy really to get into my face and say that I was quitter and that I wasn't connected to anything or devoted to anything. And when something got tough, that I was going to pack it in.


And it wasn't until, you know, at El Chorizo in Sylmar that I quit when I was playing golf, I was leaving these guys. But we're going, oh, I'm leaving manager. I got something to do. I was just frustrated that that guy's voice rang in my head. And it's one of those things that it just brings in your head. I heard it and. You know, I went to the school maybe four years after I graduated and waited for all the players to leave and walked up to him and apologized to him and said, hey, man, I'm sorry the way I treated you when I was here, you know, you were right.


And he's like, that's what you came to tell me. And I'd never, ever, ever apologize. I mean, I opened with talk about removing people from their life. And I have never apologized to a man for the way that I behaved. And I don't think that I could have gone. A day knowing that he taught me those lessons and not going back and thanking them for teaching me those lessons, it's you know, it's funny hearing you talk your you've done so much work on yourself.


And it seems to me like you've. Done it in a way that's really, really, really interesting, like as you're as you were coming up, my guess is you didn't have the time or the money to do proper therapy. So you took the mentorship where you could find it is what I'm kind of getting right.


And it's almost like, you know, the unfortunate part now is, you know, I'm fifty nine. And you think that, you know, when you're growing up and then I was still doing stand up in high school, I started right before he graduated. And then in your 20s you're doing these clubs and you're gone. I started to travel on the road and then I got married in my early 30s and even that was a little bit of a double life thing.


And then when I started to do a show on the twins, again, it's a it's a it's another part of your life. You're locked away. So the relationship part of my life at fifty nine has never has never developed or the connection to somebody because like everything, everything that I chose to do, I could do by myself. I could go on the road by myself, I could go for myself. And then when I started to get involved in relationships, since I didn't see healthy relationships, I couldn't connect to somebody because I just didn't know how those tools I never had those tools.


When I relate so much, you know. And and then there's the other element to it that people will say that whatever age you are, when you become famous, if you become famous, you're frozen in time. At that age, yeah, like and which would make me a permanent 18 year old. That's not good enough. Fifty seven year olds both no. Right.


And and it's true what we eat.


And the reason you're you're such an inspiration and a survivor is that you have this kind of insight. And I'm just frankly blown away by that, that you've that you've done it with with sort of ad hoc, put together with your own thinking and the people that have come across.


Your TransAm, whether it's the the baseball coach or what you've learned from golf, you've synthesized it in such an amazing way from like, you know, I've been lucky that I've had really good gurus, that I've had the access and the knowledge to seek out, you know, in my in my journey, you know, which is very different and yet also very similar.


I never felt I always felt different than my than when I was a little kid always and and was shy, which people like when you're an actor, you're a comedian.


You mean you're shy. George Lopez. You're hilarious.


Zach, not now. I'm shy. Right. Yeah. And you know, and same Sandy and even fairly different doesn't mean you felt better.


Like all the guys I'm still friends with, with all the guys on Disko with. And I didn't feel better than them. And even though they had fathers and they had mothers and their parents would come and, you know, watch them play baseball. I loved baseball. And I mean, my grandmother raised me. My grandmother was tough. And, you know, one of the one of the saddest you know, one of the saddest, funniest things is know.


So when you have 12 games and Little League and there's twelve players or fourteen players every week, one of the players mothers is responsible for being the snack mom. And after practice, they either bring juice. Yes. Ships or remember something for for the team. Oh yeah. My grandpa played baseball all those years that my grandmother never did. And I would be like a grandma, you know, in two weeks you're the snack. What's that? That you have to be like?


Why would I go to the store to get things to for you to take or your friend? Because that's what everybody does all the time and that's what everybody is that that's what I got to do it.


So it it it embarrassed me to be the only kid. Sure. That that that would leave the kids hanging and they'd go for all for all over the years. And she never thought twice about it, but it embarrassed, it embarrassed me all those years.


You know, that's oh I, I totally one hundred percent get it. And it's, it's funny how those things are huge and yet as a kid you go, wow, I mean you know my grandmother because different generation and, and the like you try to so you can survive it, you try to justify it.


Right. And then but when you become an adult and you try to grow and you try to figure out why you are the way you are, you look back on and go, no, that's really fucking radical.


Right, right, right. So when you see kids now and there's so much and you know, there's therapy and then there's trauma therapy and then there's kids that don't go outside or whatever, like, you know, you could sound like you're a thousand years old. But the unfortunate thing for these kids is that I don't think that there's whatever ignited in me. The the the spark of wanting to do standup at 11 started to write jokes on old gas envelopes or anything I could find and then never telling anybody my dreams.


And then June 4th of seventy nine, I graduated the 11th of June in seventy nine, going to the Comedy Store in Westwood. A kid that was afraid that couldn't hand out papers in class because I just felt like everybody was looking at me to go do something. That I wasn't good at for years and years and years, and to continue to go back to me of all the things that I've done, the thing that I cannot explain is why somebody would go back all those years and be bad and be bad and be bad.


And then the third time I was good by accident and it would rob it was like the first time ever feeling this love, this applause, this thing. I was standing on the stage and it was almost like if it if it gave you new blood, like the blood that you had, nobody believed. And now you have this new blood where you were you felt like it could be a possibility. And and, you know, I didn't know I was going to do that.


Good. I didn't expect to be put up earlier than than I was, but it just happened. And I think, you know, even having a daughter that's twenty four that said to me, you know. I thought I would be further ahead and I said further ahead of what, like of what but what I want to do. But she hadn't focused on what she wants to do. But the idea that somebody would say, I thought it'd be further ahead.


Again, I think for kids you don't need, you know, all of these things to be inspired. You have to find it within yourself.


Well, that's also a connection that we both have. As you started writing, you have no idea why you started writing jokes at 11.


Did you say people don't do that now? The energy this so is like, why did I in Dayton, Ohio, not exactly a hotbed of showbusiness. Decided eight years old, I was going to be an actor, right? No idea. No idea. And how did that happen? Was that in school or was that.


No, I my parents took me to a community theater, the Dayton Community Theater still there, some different building, but it's still there. And it was I guess they had a friend who is in the play and it was Oliver. And there's little kids in it, the little whatever, ragamuffins, whatever the hell they are.


And and I was like, like struck by lightning. It was like a bad moment in a movie where I was like that that right there. And we were walking out of the lobby and there was a little like a poster for summer acting workshop for kids. And I asked my parents, I read it. I was like, I want to do that, will you sign me up? And they were like, Yeah, sure. But, you know, in their mind, I'm sure it was like it wasn't that'd be, you know, summer camp or something else.


But for me, it was like this is the beginning of where I'm going to go. And I knew it in my bones, in my DNA, and no one could tell me otherwise. And it makes no sense in eight year old should not know that I care about that. And it was a blessing. But it's also a curse in a weird way, because now I have kids like you.


What made me think of this is your 24 year old and you and I had the blessing curse of knowing what we wanted to do. But these kids don't know. And by the way, most people don't know. You know, they they think about the kind of an interest in this area of life and maybe they'll try that as a job and they don't. But to have it's hard it was hard for me as a father to to offer advice when I knew what I wanted to do.


And the kids are exploring. I just don't have any experience with that. Did you ever did you ever have that? No. I mean, you know, the gap year is an incredible thing to me. The fact that somebody would get out of school and say, you know, I'm going to take a gap year of doing this, you know, and you know. When you tell your kids that, it's like, you know, just leave me alone, you know, I'll figure it out, but time goes by so fast that, you know, you're wasting something that is so valuable when I don't think they're devoting their true attention to it.


Either you feel it or not, like you saw that when you were eight. I was 11, you know, and and when that you know, when the coach told me that I was a quitter and in nineteen eighty four I'd lost my job and I woke up and I was sleeping on my hands in a duplex on his couch. And it was a Monday and I was coming on and off of stand up doing a little bit I remember is all he was fighting and Hollywood would fight and then come back.


It was just a fight. And then I thought, you know, I'll leave, you know. So I thought as a as a quitter and as a guy getting that information from that coach that morning at six fifteen in the morning on a duplex employment. And I didn't have a job and and I just woke up and and I said, well, you know, what the fuck am I going to do for my life? Am I going to get another job?


And I don't stand up? And I thought, well, what would I do for free? And I thought, you know, I do standup. So that night that day, I prepared whatever material was left over from, you know, the six months before the year before. And I said to myself that morning, I'm going to go back and I'm going to do stand up and I'm not going to quit and I don't care what happens, but I'm not quitting.


And that was the first time I did that. And when I went back, guys made fun of me, like, hey, look who's here, you know, then see me in a year and see me in six months. And I just kept going and I kept going and I kept going and I didn't know what was going to happen. And I just kept going. And I never thought of success, but I never thought I'd never thought of success.


But more importantly, I never thought of quitting.


Well, you know, it's amazing. George is like it's one thing to give a bad performance or not, as you were saying, not do well on a TV show or whatever, because nobody's you don't really know. You might read the reviews, but there's no live audience. But to be a comedian and to not do well, that's got to be painful. Is that and when you say not do well, you're talking about you tell a joke and it's silent, like eating it to see you eat it for years.


You know, there used to be a place called the Natural Fudge in Hollywood.


And it was like the first it was just in a rundown area that is kind of behind KTV, that old back then, as it's called, the natural fudge. And it was just this little building that was a Sprout's. And I'm looked at this that make you buy food if you're going to perform God. And he is I may have done the worst one. I've done worse since then, but it may be the worst ever. And I got in my car and I was driving down to 170 right by, you know, Roscoe and I started to cry.


And now my driving crying. I'm like, you don't want to fuck this man. I don't need this shit. It didn't come easy. I'm like, I don't need this bullshit. And I remember just wiping my eyes and getting closer to my offramp and getting off and, you know, waking up in the morning and said, no, I'm going back. I mean, but that night that for that seven miles was maybe one of the most difficult personal behind the wheel.


Just frustrated. I don't need this shit. I'm quitting bucket. I'm no good. And and in the morning, you know, I was I wasn't better. I wasn't funny in the morning, but I just I just got up and I did it again, man.


You know, what I love about having this talk with you is I would never, ever have suspected that this was your journey. Ever, and, you know, and it's like it's that old thing of like we look at other people and I'm like, you're fucking George Lopez did.


You're a legend, you're your trailblazer, you're a legend. You're hilarious.


You you you've you've been on the scene forever. And and and you I would look back, I would just assume and do the math in my head, knowing nothing that, you know, I'm sure it was what it was.


But you don't think people don't realize what other people's journeys are. And as a mother, if you're like George Lopez or me or whoever people listening, it's like it's just a great reminder that we don't know the suffering or the journeys that people have been on. And a lot of times we assume that people have had it easy because they've been successful and you just don't you just don't know.


Man, I would never have known that this is your story. It's really, really, really, really inspiring and good to hear.


So what I tell people is that I'm not an advice giver, but if I see somebody that's say, if you ever wanted to do something, do it, it's never too late to do it. You know, don't tell anybody your dreams.


Don't tell anybody what you want to do. Just inspire yourself. Like if you can inspire yourself looking for somebody to inspire you or looking for somebody for advice. You know, my wife, my ex-wife, God bless her. So, you know, in two thousand and five, the Emmys were kind of not doing very well. And then they decide, I think in twenty five that they were going to have, like, different comedians be hosts, guest hosts.


So I think I was myself, Brad Garrett, Ray Romano, Conan O'Brien, Bernie Mac, maybe Sarah Silverman. And we all all presented Shandling, all presented things at different times. So that was on a Sunday and I went to rehearsal that Saturday. I was preparing my stuff and my wife found my notes. You know, when she's looking at my notes and she looks at me and she says, you're not going to do this. This is the situation.


This is the shit you're going to do now said I said I said, yeah, that's a shit I'm going to do. She goes. First of all, it's not funny and it's racist, and I said it's not fun is racism. Well, I'll tell you what, why don't you let me worry about what you you know, so we get in a fight that morning. I go to rehearsal. I do it. And and it's not even in the back of my head like, you know, I'm not going to let her destroy.


You know what? That's me. Like I'm working on me. That's why in the beginning, I said I'd never let anybody look at my stuff or ask somebody. So so I do it. And she has this face like, you know, I think you're making a big mistake. And I'm just like, you know what? If it is my mistake, right? So The Sopranos are there six feet under. Everybody Loves Raymond is. It's a great time in TV.


Yes. Yes. So as we're sitting next to each other and they come and get you, yes. We're coming to get to you. And I stand up and she stands up and I said, you know what? You stay here and she goes, What? We're going with you. I said, you stay here. I said to her, You burned your backstage pass yesterday, so do me a favor and stay here. All right. So I go out there and I presented the first Emmy for reality TV.


It's all your fault. God damn it is my fault. So they blame me. They gave me the first Emmy. So I said I went out there and said, you know, survivor people on an island. I said, you know, let's let them go to East L.A. and see how long they last would be last a season. And then they they had I had a joke about my brother and I said, you know, 14 people living in a house.


I said, it's been done. So everybody at that point, everybody could roll in like the whole place is rolling. And then I said, you know, Extreme Makeover, where they take somebody who's unattractive and in an hour they're beautiful. But isn't that what a 12 pack does? So. So killer jokes, killer, killer, killer, kill them. So the next day, the L.A. Times says that I'm like a Latino, Will Rogers.


And they have that quote. Oh, yes, 14 people in the house.


It's been done. It says George Lopez. And the guy that wrote it said, this guy is just like, you know, he gets he's just culturally this thing. It's in the paper. We go back there and and again, like. She didn't believe, didn't think, and it was a success. Everybody did great and I did great, but I didn't let that person get to me and did nothing. So, you know, my thing was never to show anybody my cards and I would play my cards myself.


Well, it's so smart because.


I've been married forever to to my wife, and the one place I know that I cannot trust her is comedy and what I'm going to say publicly, and I think because they're they're scared we're going to bomb.


Right. You know, they're scared we're going to not do it because they they they love us. But I cannot tell you how many times I've had that. You're not going to say that. Are you saying that you. But that you had the balls to go out and do it?


I remember I was at that Emmys. I remember it now. You crush. I remember that joke. That joke was you, by the way. It's such a well constructed 14 people in house. It's been done but done. That's a lot of TNT in two sentences.


And we'll be right back after this. But also, you know, I've been discovered by by Sandra Bullock, Sandra Bullock, who was really the first person to see me and take an interest and take an interest in me. And I didn't know Sandra Bullock was a talent scout.


I need to know more about this. How did this happen? So, you know, so so her mother passes away in the early 2000s. She's very disillusioned with the business. And she had just done Miss Congeniality, just like the biggest star, Sandra Bullock. And somebody asked her, you know, a person that she was working with to come and see me.


And she came to see me and she had an idea for a show that was more centrally about teenagers. And I remember backstage she said, you know, after seeing you, your life is like a train wreck, is like a train wreck you can't turn away from. And I want I want to have a meeting with you. I want you to come and talk to me about what your family's life. And I remember I was at Wizzit hitting golf balls.


The meeting was at two o'clock at Fordice over there, right off by the old Tower Records on Sunset. And at one o'clock, I'm hitting golf balls and my manager calls me and he says, Are you on your way? And I said, No, man, I'm not. I'm over here. You're hitting golf. You're doing it. You know, they're waiting for you. I said I said state domain. What's she going to do for me?


I mean, what she'll say, listen, she wants you to see you. She's already saw you interested in you. But what is she going to do for me? You know, just to defeat is kind of a defeatist attitude, maybe a little bit afraid. But also, you know, really, what was she going to do for me? So he says, go over there. So I remember I left all these golf balls to the guy next to make out his balls.


And I went over there and we talked for maybe three hours and we had lunch and and she kind of got it. She kind of got the idea of the show around. A guy who didn't have a father, who had a mother that was overbearing and his wife expected him to be a better husband, but his mom still treated him like a boy. That's what we decided. And I remember the Chicago Bulls were winning all those championships. And Phil, too, they won with the triangle.


Yeah. So I thought to myself, this show is going to be like a triangle. I'm going to be the triangle between my mom and my wife. Must be the triangle before how I raised my kids and how my wife thinks I can raise the kids. And in that triangle, I found some success. So as she was walking me down the stairs and she opens the door, you know, I look at her and I said, listen, I don't know what's going to happen here.


And this is something that's never been done successfully on TV. So if I don't ever get a chance to see you again or if I you know, I just want to say thank you for taking an interest. And she looked at me and she said, well, why don't you worry about being funny and why don't you let me worry about all of that? And it really was the first time at forty one that anybody ever really had my back.


And it was somebody that wasn't related to me. That's so great.


That's really inspiring story. And it does not happen all the time.


No, it doesn't happen. And I remember I remember when we were living in in Sherman Oaks and Drew Carey Show at syndicated and it's syndicated for like a huge amount. That's when those guys were making huge amounts of zillions. Roseanne made two hundred and fifty million dollars. And now and Drew Carey, it's syndicated for like one hundred million. They made one hundred million each. Yeah. And and I remember, you know, I in the kitchen there to select milk and opens the paper and she says, you know how much money Drew Carey made last year?


And I said, no, because he made forty million dollars. And and I just you know, I got up, I got some I got some golf balls from my garage and I was hitting some golf balls in the dark. And my neighbor across the street, Jan, you know, she she saw me hitting golf balls. You watch. What the fuck are you doing? I look at her, I go, you must have carried me.


Last year. I said, forty million dollars. And she comes over, she looks at me because, you know, my man fucked. You carry like your George Lopez and I wasn't doing anything. I do some favor and don't worry about what he's doing. Don't worry about anybody's going. You're a funny dude. Like just keep doing your thing, not knowing anything about what what was down the line. She was just telling me pretty much, don't worry about anybody else and just be your be your own person.


And the guy that did Drew Carey Show ended up doing my show. Wow. And with Sandra and as well, Rob, I never you know, these things that have all happened, man, that you know, I remember I remember seeing the end of Drew Carey Show and it said created by Bruce Alford and Drew Carey. I would look at my wife and I go, where's my true self? When am I going to get a shot? And we were at we were at the in Pasadena at that big hotel.


They should do the in the Ritz Carlton, the TICAS, the Ritz Carlton.


That's so low up on this. We're up on this floor and everybody's outside and Sandra's in one room and you could see her little TV in the hallway. You know, she's talking about me. And we go to the next one. And Bruce is in there and I look at my wife and he's in this. Little TV screen go there is my Bruce Helford right there, and he's in there talking about me and talking about the show Crazy shit, man.


Wow. It's a it's it's it is. It's crazy. You don't ever I mean, like, I never imagined it. You can't you can't either control it, but also their success and their failure like it could have not it could have not worked.


And timing and timing plays a huge part in everybody's lives. No matter what, no matter what they're doing, what they're in trouble is not in show business. Timing is a big is a really, really, really big thing. Timing is a big thing. But fear also, you know, fear intimidates people and maybe they may not share with anybody. But, you know, timing can have its place if fear keeps you from even getting in the game, you know?


So I was never I got to that point in the 90s where I just thought since I was afraid of everything growing up and I was afraid of standup, I really kind of analytically said, like, what? What am I afraid of? I mean, am I afraid of going up there and nobody laughing? I mean, that kind of happens to everybody. So that is is the worst thing that can happen to me. Well, let me just work as hard as I can work to avoid that happening, which I didn't have in the 80s.


I created I kind of found that in the 90s. And once I stopped worrying about what other people were doing and started to just work on myself, it just everything changed.


Who was the who is the funniest person you ever saw in a club? In a.


Yeah, in a club like like where you saw them and they were just electric, like you just could not believe how they were in that moment.


So in nineteen eighty seven at the Icehouse capacity before Dana Carvey was on Saturday Night Live, this guy was the most incredible comedian I ever saw. The church lady, the character from Wayne's World was in there. He did Scarface. He did all of the characters that you ever saw in his movies were in his act, and he was only there two nights because he was doing wiseguys with Burt Lancaster and Russell Crowe, Douglas Douglas. And he and he could only work two days.


And I remember the second day he came, he got five standing ovations, five encores the first night. And then I remember when he showed up the second night, I asked him a simple question, man, how did you get so funny? How does this happen? And it says, You know what, George? It's all attitude, boys. This is like, if you believe it, they'll believe it. And I never got up there and say, hey, how about a round of applause for Rob?


Wasn't he great? Because I get to the business like I walk up there, I get to the business. I don't ask them how they're doing. I tell them how I'm doing and I just drive, you know, I'm the driver. And and for a little guy like that and you and you saw him work, it's true. And maybe one of the most valuable lessons that that and I took advice I did was say to mean I took I took that advice.


I took every every advice that I thought was real. And here's a guy that was the funniest person I ever saw. I took that advice that that put me on the right path to buy the way. That is such a great piece of advice for everybody. Like if you have, like, the opening gambit of how are you doing tonight? I love that. That's fucked. You tell them how you're doing and saying it's so it that's so good at.


Well, you know, it's funny because I agree with you that I think of all and I've been blessed to work with a bunch of funny people from Tina Fey, Amy Poehler, Ricky Gervais is Garry Shandling, you name it. I've been really Mike Myers, Dan, all of them. The murderer. The killer. The assassin. It's Dana. Yes.


He's just when you see I did live scenes with him on Saturday Night Live and in Wayne's World.


And when you look in his eyes. You felt like you were on stage with a wild animal. Mm hmm.


Like like he would murder you for a laugh and not not but not in a bad way.


Not that he it's it's like he it's like you talk about the eye of the tiger. No one has the comedic eye of the tiger like he's a fucking killer, like his his appearances on on Carson. He used to do a bit where all he did with the stupid cups of water they put in front of you when you're on top.


So there's bugs. By the way, I think in the old days didn't have water in them. But with my luck, I came up late and they just have water in them. But Dana's bit was just drink from the fucking cup so good.


And it just destroyed. He he's he's the best. I wouldn't that's I think that's a that's a great choice.


And also, he was a guy that could do an hour and and make it seem the most effortless performance you'd ever seen. Anybody do you know, I did a thing with him up in the Bay Area for Tony La Russa, a dog rescue thing. And Dana was up there and he did an hour. And it was the most effortless hour I've ever seen any one do like that. That guy was he's just I don't think he gets enough credit as.


You know, maybe that's one of the top comedians George Carlin does, Pryor does C.K. or Chappelle, but that dude does not get the credit that he deserves. It's incredible.


I have something I want to ask you. So when I when I because, you know, I'm very professional at this, George. I'm a I'm a professional broadcasting host now. And you're great. Well, thank you. And it's just because I have a staff that provides me with information. And you know what's great, as most folks I have on the show, I know and have a relationship with like you and I've run into each other and golf courses at baseball games and we're acquaintances.


But every once in a while, the staff will find some shit in the mix. That's not George Lopez was not a witness in the trial of Michael Jackson or that's not that's not true.


Is it true? Yeah. So that's what this is a great point I'm going to tell. So. So the Laugh Factory did these comedy camps and Jamie Masada at the Laugh Factory did these comedy camps with underprivileged people, with underprivileged kids. So Chris Tucker did it. Jay Leno did it. Arsenio did it. A lot of guys did it. So I did it. And I get the results. I get Gavyn Star Gavilan and the mother Janet.


And they lived up here like in Dewater. They took the bus over there and I became their comedy coach and I didn't know them. They were poor. I would take them to Greenblatt's next door and I'd give them money for bus fare. I would buy them sandwiches. They take the bus back. And I was with them for about about a month or so, two months. And then they did the show and Gavin did the show. Gavin was pretty good.


And then all of a sudden I get a call from the mother, hysterical that Gavin is sick and that they found a tumor, cancer, cancer, a tumor in his stomach, a pretty big tumor. He's at the hospital here on Sunset, the children's hospital. So I go over there and I probably should say alleged, because it's going to get a little bit tricky right now. So so. So I tried it. I tried to I went over there and and and because I'm sure something but then I went over there and and was a friend and then he needed blood.


So we tried to do a blood drive for him. We did a show at the at the at the Laugh Factory to try to raise money. And I got him on Fox News to do a story about a fox. So Michael Jackson allegedly allegedly watching Fox News and calls the calls Fox to get the number of the kid in the hospital. And he calls the hospital and starts talking to phone. I don't know. It's tricky, allegedly. So when I go over there, Gavin is like asleep during the day and I said, so what's going on with Gavin?


Like, why do you sleep? Oh, Michael called. Michael Jackson called. And I said he did about what you called it, a talk for like five hours, five hours. So he would call them in the middle of the night and allegedly they would talk. And, you know, he was at the point where he wasn't eating, but he was getting better. But he wasn't eating. But Michael was calling a lot. And, you know, they said to me, George, you know, tell them to eat.


So I said to him, I said, Gavin, you know, if you eat, you get out out of the hospital and I'll take you. You know, I'll take you shopping. I'll take you to the store, will go have lunch. So he gets out and I go pick him up and he lives in Portland. So I pick him up and I bring him to my house in Sherman Oaks and I take him to the Sherman Oaks Mall and I buy them where I took him with my daughter and then I bought him something.


But when I take him home and I come back, my wife says Gavin left his wallet on top of the mantel, which is. That why would a kid put his wallet on the mantle? Whether he placed it there on purpose, whether however he got there, his wallet was there, and it was one of those wallets that, like the surfer had, that it had the Velcro, Velcro, it closed. Sure. So I open it up.


And I think at that point already, Gavin was going to the Neverland Ranch allegedly on the weekend. And Michael Jackson had was giving the father a truck driver, allegedly, and the mother a credit card allegedly to go shop. And the kids were spending the weekend at Neverland Ranch. So they, you know, alleged, of course. So I opened the wallet and there's a 50 dollar bill in the wallet. And I think, how is this kid have a fifty dollar bill in his wallet?


And I show and I said, Dad, this kid's got to I took this kid the lens got 50 dollars.


So so when I when I gave the wallet back to the Laugh Factory, gave it to Jamie.


Jamie called the father, the father came and picked up the wallet and the father said that there was three hundred dollars in the wallet and that I took the three hundred dollars from the wallet that I took.


So when Tom Mesereau saw when Tom Mesereau was doing his vetting, allegedly, Jamie Masada says, well, you know, George Lopez took gabbin to lunch and they left his wallet. And then when he brought the wallet back, alleged. David Rizzo said that that George Lopez stole three hundred dollars from the wallet. So Massaro thinks, OK, now I got somebody that looks like they're going after celebrities for financial gain. He used it in his opening argument.


So I was in New York doing Regis and Regis and Kelly and I wake up in the morning and it's the biggest story. So I have I have Court TV on cheese and I walk by, I walk by, I get out of the shower and I walk by the TV and I look and I go by the guy looks like me. I look over and it is me and it says it says George Lopez is going to get subpoenaed, supposedly to testify in the Michael Jackson trial.


So I get a lawyer. Mesereau calls me, ask me if that thing is true.


Mesereau is what the defense is, what Michael's defense is. Michael Jackson talked to Tom Mesereau, Michael Jackson's attorney. Right. So so he says this is true. You know, so so what people don't know is when I was on the radio in two thousand, I said that I would do a fundraiser for the family. So but I canceled it because it became apparent to me that the father was more interested in the money than he was in having somebody help his child.


So so I did an appearance and the father shows up and confronts me outside the restaurant and says, hey, motherfucker, what's going on with the show? And I said, motherfucker. And I said, What do you mean? He goes, What am I supposed to tell Gavin? All of a sudden you cancel the show like like what am I supposed to tell my kid? I said, Tell your kid that is fucking dad's trying to fucking extort money for people, you know, instead of trying to worry about the kid.


And he says that. Right. And he got in my face and I was the. That's right. So all of a sudden here I am in this trial. I get subpoenaed. I'm doing my show. I hire an attorney, I rent a plane, I fly to Santa Maria, I get out and all that mayhem, I go into the courthouse, they're on a break. I get sworn. I'm standing around and I see the jury.


I see Joseph Jackson, I see Katherine Jackson, the sisters alleged. And then I'm looking for Michael Jackson. I don't see him. So I'm looking around and all of a sudden I see him and he was dressed and he looked like a nutcracker, like you'd look he had a red jacket with the epaulets. He had the thing on a nutcracker.


And he had I said he looked like the captain and Tenille at the same time.


It just was so done. So done up and. And and. I wasn't for anybody's side like everybody thought, you know, I was for the side, that it was true that, you know, like I said, I took three hundred dollars. But while I was on the stand, Michael Jackson was looking at me. I really didn't know Michael Jackson. But, I mean, he looked he looked just very, very I don't mind. I'm going to say I hate to say such a huge fan, ghoulish, you know, very sunken, almost greyish.


And I just, you know, was trying to smile at me. And it bothered me, Robinho, for like three weeks after I wake up in the middle of the night and I just think about him and, you know, growing up and that kid and the music and all that stuff. And I wasn't on anybody's side. And I remember after I testified the elevator was closing and him and his family was in there and he was in the middle and they said, George, come on, get to the elevator.


I said, cool uncle. He's right in the middle of the elevator closes. But but when when the guy did the living to Neverland, Martin Bashir. I was watch I was taping my show, and after we taped the show, I was watching the interview. I have kind of forgotten about Gavin, and then as I'm watching the interview, he's sitting there on the couch holding hands with Michael Jackson and it really was the first time I had seen him in months.


And Rob, I jumped. I may have almost, like, hit my head on the ceiling. I was so like, what? I mean, whoa, man.


They're holding hands or leaning on each other just like, oh, my God, crazy. So now I'm in this. Now I'm in this thing. And yeah, I testified in the trial and as a matter of fact, here is the artist's rendering.


No way. Look at that of me on with Thomas Mesereau. Oh, wait a minute, though.


It looks like you're one of the Menendez brothers.


I know. I know. They drew me as the guy. Do you think I think this is just a reject from the Menendez brothers trial.


But you see, look at that.


There's Thomas Masra and there's Michael. He is the Captain and Tennille.


And there's Sneddon, the guy that really wanted the guys and the prosecutor.


So that is, by the way, that's the most unbelievable. Like, what is it? What's the famous guy illustrator that everybody on Broadway gets done like that?


A Hirschfeld that's like the world's greatest Hirschfeld you just showed me.


So this guy is Bill Rogala, Bill Rhoden, Bill Robles. And he he is the Hirschfeld of, of course, renderings.


That makes perfect sense. That's actually quite something. And he was a big fan of mine and he said, I'll send it to you. And it was on the news that night. So, yeah, man. And it cost me. Here, I try to help this kid, you know, Jamie Masada says, you know, I said he took three hundred dollars. It costs me seventy five thousand dollars to defend myself, defend myself or present myself.


I didn't present yourself or something in that that I didn't do other than just try to help somebody.


That's such a crazy, crazy here life, brother. It's a wild man. That was wild. Your your life is. We need to have stories when we play golf together. I need I need to come to Lakeside and come to Lakeside and play that.


I'd love to see you out there. So, you know, we're we're we're getting back to it.


And people need stuff to watch, man. You know, they need sure. We need people need escapism. It's one of the reasons I love doing this show is just gives it just a minute for people to just chill and, you know, just, you know, nobody's haranguing anybody. And we're talking thoughtful shit and funny stuff. Right. That's the end of it. Yeah.


Or, you know, you're good at it, man. So. Yeah, so so for me, you know, at fifty nine, you know, with opportunities to do other stuff, you know, in the Netflix special that came out and, and you know, there'll be no standup this year, you don't be any shows.


So I'm I'm not I'm not sure that I'll go back and ever do stand up again. I may be done with that part of my career. Wow. You know, I just think, you know, I think, you know, the honor that it's given me, the things that it's given me, the Netflix thing was great. This this kind of downtime has given me for the first time, I wasn't out there grinding as much and an appreciation of something.


You know, I think it might be time to put that kind of portion of my life away go out on top, because it probably will never be what it was.


It won't be what it was. And, you know, I'm not sure if I want to travel as much. And, you know, at fifty nine, you know, I could be transplanted twenty five. And you start to figure, you know, these days that I'm out there with my friends and I like those days. I'm not sure if I want to be in a hotel room waiting for it to get dark.


You know, when you put it that way, it sounds so great.


George, you're the best. Thank you so much for coming on. Absolutely, man.


And I am going to reach out to you and get your your info, because will you take me will you take me to George Wienerschnitzel?


It's not there anymore, but I'll take your word. It's not. No, I'll take you to some great Mexican places. Well, what is the one that's right by Gasol.


Very big a baby. Yeah. Yeah. I went in there with one time of the and the waiters are still there and the waiter goes Centaurus.


Let's remember we used to come in here in the eighties man it would be all dark and with it's like no no not the Ed remember I was in the eighties going to remember, you know, having lunch of, of Baga and it was completely, completely dark, like all those guys were so good and drank all day and eat Mexican food and.


Yeah. Oh yeah I remember it. Well OK, so we'll do, we'll do 18 holes in CASEVAC.


I love my brother. I love you man. Thank you. I think so yeah.


Wow. That was amazing for me. I mean I've, I've known George peripherally for years and been a fan, but I had no idea the level of like self work and, and, and growth and how smart he is.


I mean I've spent. Hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years in therapy, according to George, I could have listened to the baseball coach. I mean, he that was amazing, he is he is tuned up, man, he is an evolved human being. And in addition to being a 10 handicap, he may be the world's most perfect.


Human being, and thank you for listening to literally, and we'll see you again next week. And oh, by the way, don't forget to go. I'm reading all of the reviews and comments, by the way. It's for all of you people who've been kind enough to give me your thoughts and pointers, whether it's on Apple or Stitcher, all the websites, particularly Apple, that's the one that gets the most traction. So if you've got an extra five minutes to spare, tell me what you think of of the show.


And I appreciate it. See you next week. You have been listening to literally with Rob Lowe, produced and engineered by me, Devon Tory Bryant, executive produced by Rob Lowe for low profile Adam Sachs and Jeff Ross at Team Coco and Colin Anderson and Chris Bannon at Stitcher. The supervising producer is Aaron Blair's talent producer, Jennifer Sampas. Please write and review the show on Apple podcast and remember to subscribe on Apple podcast, Stitcher or wherever you get your pockets.


This has been a team cocoa production in association with Sketcher.