Hey, Weirdo's, I'm Ash and Emelina, and this is morbid.

So whole last war bit, you know why it's a Leanna's morbid, it's Lena Century, and we know I can't do a mini you can't even do a regular main episode anymore without it being like 42 hours long.

Know she's insane. Ever since I got my research game, you're like seem like I can do it too.

But where will I go from here? Double downing. That's what I'm doing. You are. Or doubling down either way.

So I was like, that sounds not right. I'm here for either way. I'm here for you. Yeah. Words, they're hard. Well, this one I originally I got the bare bones of it together and like the outline, it was like five pages, which is like normally what my focus is.

And I was like five pages and really nothing like I was actually like, oh shit, maybe I shouldn't have.

I hit five pages and I'm like, we got an hour. You know, I was like really upset about it. I was like, come on, it's got to be more. And then I found the court documents, which was like a good court document. Here we are. And I got so much more information. I was so excited.

And now it's ten and a half pages. So everybody settle in because it's it's going to be a long one.

How we I need to ask, how many was the how many pages was the Scream murder for you?

Do you remember that was like eleven and a half I think.

OK, so so we should prepare for like an hour and 45 minutes, I would say. I mean, it kind of depends on like discussions, I think to that way.

How often I interrupt you, how often you interrupt me. Exactly.

So I think we don't really have any business to get to. But what we're going to be covering today is the case of Kim Edwards and Lucas Markham, a.k.a. the Twilight Killers. So Oleanna told me that it's called The Twilight Killers, but she won't tell me why it's true because she wants a real reaction. I do. I was like, I can't tell you beforehand because it's it's it's weird that they're called the Twilight Killers, because it seems like a very small part of the case.

Right. But it in it's small, but it's shocking. I think it's the part of the case that you're like, what?

I just for me, I'm just like, do they think that they're vampires? It's like a Jeremy stank, you know, as a werewolf.

That would make it easy. But, you know, I it's funny because when I was reading so they are both 14 year olds and they are in a relationship together.

Are they were and, you know, a 14 year old relationship.

Yeah, but it was a real intense one. And it reminds me of the Jasmine Richardson Jeremy Stanky relationship in a way that they were like, it's us against the world. Right. They were weirdly obsessed with each other. They became way too connected. And then they started looking at people who are trying to keep them apart when they were like, you got to go.

All right, well, let's dive in now. This one also besides the Jeremy Stanecki and Jasmine Richardson case, this one really reminded me of the Myra Hindley and Ian Brady case, which I don't know that much about.

I know too much about that case. What else is new?

Because before I had kids, I mean, I do it now, but much more before I obsessively read cases like I know every case known to man, at least a little bit.

And so and I remember the Myra Hindley and Ian Brady case fascinated me. I mean, I could not stop reading about it because it was just so unbelievable.

And now I always said I was like I had trouble looking at it now because it has some kids and it just changes. But a lot of people have asked to do it. It's a huge case. It is fascinating. It deserves to be told.

So I'm going to take one for the team guys, because after reading this case and it was compared to that one and I'm going to mention it in here, I've decided that I'm going to cover the Ian Brady and Myra Hindley case next week.

Well, and it's a big one. Next week is going to be a big week.

We're going to have the completion. Yeah, that's a gross word of my case. And then, yeah, they're more friendly.

And I really Poivre, I was thinking about Moira Rose because I just seems like if recently, but yeah. So yeah, we'll have part three of the Brenda Shaffer case from Ash and then we'll start the Myra Hindley and Ian Brady, which I'm fairly positive is going to be more than one part.

But yeah, I would think so. We'll try.

But I think hopefully you guys will be psyched about that because a lot of people have asked for it and I've been avoiding it.

Oh, we got to we haven't done a heavy hitter in a while. We do. And that one's a big one. So I feel like it's important to do so. We'll be doing that. You might you're definitely going to hear about it very briefly, not like really any details in this case, but it gets mentioned a lot, mainly because this one's partner is a UK case as well. So this is not an American case. So hello, international listeners.

We're here. Hello. We're here for you. So Kim Edwards and Lucas Markham, this crime occurred in Spalding, Lincolnshire, New England.

Nope, not in New England. I was going to say one New Englander used to saying New England because I live there, or actually good old England, the original the Oji England. Oh, we're off to a good start, guys. Good, good, good. So, Spalding, Lincoln Shire. Not sure if it's Lincoln Shire, Lincolnshire, but you guys will tell me and you'll do it nicely.

I was going to say, yeah, OK, I'm here. So the victim in this case is 49 year old Elizabeth Edwards.

She was a single mother of two daughters, 14 year old Kim Edwards and 13 year old Katie Edwards.

Big spoiler alert already. Yeah, so, yeah, exactly. Just throw it to declare the murderer her daughter, Kim's child.

So on April 14th, 2016, Elizabeth was absent from work, OK? And she wasn't just absent. She hadn't called in. She worked. This was a local TV show. Yeah. And she worked as a lunch lady. They call it a dinner lady in in all the things I read about this and heard about this, it's very, very English of them. And I like it.

Maybe it's like is it like dinners, lunch and then like supper is our dinner probably. I don't know, honestly. It's us who says everything weird. So like, yeah, we're uncultured swines. America, you guys have it right. We just, we just like mess it all up.

Yeah. So yeah. So that she was a dinner lady at the local primary school. She loved working there. She was always on time.

She was early. She never would not show up and not call. Right.

So immediately all of a sudden ding ding ding. The radars are going up now.

Kim and Katie were also absent from school that day, which is weird. And nobody had called to say that they were going to be absent. So people were like, why are all three of them not here?

Yeah, that's cause for concern. Now, Elizabeth, the mother did have a partner, Graham Greene, and he was trying to get in touch with her and he couldn't get in touch with her.

And he said he was very concerned by this because she always answered the phone. I believe he was like a truck driver, a lorry driver. And so he was gone a lot.

But when he was gone, he said they talked constantly. They were in constant communication. So he was like, this was very concerning to me. Yeah.

Now, Katie and Elizabeth, the mother, Katie, was the 13 year old. They were very close. They just had one of those mother daughter relationships were like Katie adored her mother. She would like hang outside of the school waiting for her to come out from work. They always hung out together. They were just very close. They just happened to have that relationship. Kim was not as close with her mom, OK?

And it just seemed like neither one of them really didn't get each other. Yeah, they just didn't get each other. Wasn't they didn't get along.

I think Kim seemed and we're going to see this later, not the easiest child to get along with, but it also seems like her mother may not have been the easiest mother for her to get along with.

That speaks to my soul. Yeah, it's like her mother, Elizabeth seems like a wonderful person. She seems like, you know, but there was definitely some troubles that happen. You know, my therapist always says she says sometimes you're it's like not the right parent for the right kid. Like, you don't always get matched up it. Shut up. Oh, yeah.

I remember you saying that. That makes sense. Well, unfortunately. So Kim's four to Kim had a fourteen year old boyfriend named. I don't know if anybody can guess. I don't know Lucas Markham. Oh shit. Oh yes. He was also not in school. Oh yeah.

And was reported missing by his aunt who he lived with. OK, so it's getting weird. Why are all these people out, where are they now that she's sketchy and nobody can find them. It's all right. They're just at home like and they're like, yeah, we're out in their PJs. Exactly. Watching the price is right because they're not feeling well today. Or are they.

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. You know, I mean, I do that because you said this is a morbid case. It is. So relatives came over to the Edwards home at different times during the day and we're like knocking on the door, just calling out. No one's answering the phones. So now they're like, what the fuck is going on? Like, do we go there?

So I mean, relatives.

I mean, I think Lucas's aunt had come over a couple of times and knocked on the door because she was like, maybe he's there. People are freaking out. They came over at five, 10 p.m., nine p.m. and nine forty six p.m. and nothing no one answered the door, but they did hear the dog barking inside.

Oh. So they're like, what is going on. Right. But of course nobody's banging down the door yet because. Yes, but in two hours.

So 36 hours later from when they first went missing around noontime, the police have now been called by various people. And they come to the home, they knock on the door, same thing. Don't hear anything except of dog barking inside.

So they open the door. Right, because they're like, this is a wellness check. Now, we can't come. We need to go in. We're concerned.

So in the home, huh? Lucas and Kim, the two fourteen year old son, today, they were. They're just sitting there in the living room. They've been there the entire time, people have been knocking. Are they just watching TV? They're sitting on a mattress that they had brought into the living room. They're cuddled under a blanket together watching television like nothing is happening around them.

They're straight up chilling. They're Netflix and chilling, just hanging out with some ice cream.

There were alcohol bottles around there just hanging out, what, once? And the police are like, oh, hey, people have been knocking. Did you hear them? Hello? And they were just like, oh, hey, real weird that they I mean, obviously we know what they did.

Yeah. Like at least a little bit real weird that they just stayed there. Oh it gets weirder.

OK, so police were like, hey, where is Elizabeth and Katie, your mom and your sister. And Kim says upstairs.

Oh huh. And they asked, what happened to your mother and sister?

Are they sick? Why are they upstairs?

And Lucas looked them dead in the eye and they said with zero emotion, said, why don't you go upstairs and see, oh, yeah, are you shitting me?

A fourteen year old throw some bedding on a bunch of different mattresses and sure, they all look alike.

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And what did they see? They went upstairs and they found a blood bath and they just looked at the police and said, why don't you go upstairs and see and see what a bunch of shit's Elizabeth and Katie were both dead in their beds where they were sleeping.

Yeah. Killed while they were sleeping. Blood was on the ceilings, the walls, on the victims, on their beds. Both had been slashed at the throat and both had been there for almost two days.

And they're just downstairs eating ice cream, watching TV gets better. So the murder weapon, an eight inch butcher knife, was still in Katie's room, just left there after they had done it and not cleaned or anything, just like thrown on a table.

After they had murdered her, they immediately were arrested. Yeah. Yeah. And Lucas said fuck life to the cops as he was detained there.

Like, I bet you feel that way now that we're detaining you. They were like, fuck your life broke out. You're going to go away for a long time, all of you. Right. And they as they were leading them outside, Graham, the partner, said, oh, no, poor Graham in there leading her outside.

He said he looked her dead in the eye and was like, what the fuck is going on? Like, he just looked at her because he was like, what was happening?

She immediately put her head down and wouldn't look him in the eye. And he said he was just devastated. Oh, no. He said he was the one who had to identify Elizabeth. Oh, God.

And he said, quote, It's something I would never wish on my worst enemy to identify someone you love. I can't even imagine. Yeah. So obviously, again, they were arrested immediately and it was determined that they had never left the home after the murders.

Thirty six hours prior, they had been in there the entire time with Kim's dead mother and dead little sister just right upstairs. Right. The bathroom was upstairs, so they had to go upstairs where the dead bodies were to use the bathroom.

I don't even like going to my own bathroom, which is like off of everything in my house when I'm home alone. Yeah, like, freaks me out.

Like, once they were literally walking up there with her mother and her sister lying dead for two days, just going to pee and stuff. What's now? This is the this is very bizarre.

Well, we're going to find out a little bit exactly what they did during those 36 hours. And Jewboy, I don't know if you know, but before we do that, let's talk about Elizabeth Edwards.

Elizabeth Edwards was a single mother, like I said, raising Kim and Katie alone. She was well-liked. She sang in the church choir. She did. She was known to help out with the church. She did a lot of charity work. She was described as bubbly and always happy, always smiling.

So a great person. Some of the documentaries I saw on this, I think there's like there's one that's like Britain's killer kids or something like that. Yeah. There's home video that Graham has on his phone or his iPad of her stuff.

And she's like dancing in, like, different outfits in the kitchen and stuff. And she just seemed like a bubbly, happy. Right. People said she did a lot of after school programs with children because she loved children.

Yeah. I mean, she works at an elementary school and she has two children. She focused around children a lot. Like I said, she worked as the lunch lady and she worked at St Paul's Community Primary School. Katie, the thirteen year old daughter, the second victim, was super popular, super outgoing. People loved her. She was the exact opposite of Kim.

OK, Kim, is not that OK?

So she was literally I think they talked to Kim and Kim and Lucas's friend or former friend. Yeah, Adam. Yeah. Who plays another part in this. Oh, he doesn't do anything, but he's part of it.

So he was giving an interview and he was like, yeah. Like Katie was really popular, like people really liked Katie. When they found out that she was dead, it was like devastation.

Oh, like everyone was so grim. Elizabeth's partner said that he and Elizabeth were planning to get married. Mm. Like that was the new thing. They were planning to do it. He had bought the family a dog. That was the dog that you year.

So this is oh it's really sad.

And he and Katie would take walks with it. He said he really loved the kids. Yeah. But he did say Kim was tough. Yeah. Like Kim was tough to get like to crack she and she was she had an attitude a lot of the time. And he said that he was like, you know what, Elizabeth and Kim didn't have like the super close relationship, but but he didn't see anything that would make it seem like she one was being favored over the other or anything like that.

It just they had different relationships. And he was like, and honestly, when you have different kids, it's like, yeah.

And he was like it had more to do with how Katie and Kim interacted with their mother than anything. Right.

Just Katie interactive and family didn't didn't. So it was just the way it is now. He also said Lucas and Kim have destroyed my life and the family lived in a kind of tough part of town at the time.

There was a lot of gangs and drug abuse and violence happening. So it wasn't like a great area. So Kim Rose Edwards is what she was born. She was born June 13th, 2001, which really hammers in how fucking young they are.

Yeah, she was in 2001. Wow. Yeah. She was very troubled, not attached to her mother from a very young age. Oh, really? Her father left her family when she was a baby. Her mother raised her and her younger sister, Katie, alone. Like we said, there was a time.

Now, this is the point where I'm like, huh? This is an odd little blip in the history. There was a time when social services was called because there was a fight in the home and Elizabeth, the mother, slapped him in the face. OK, there's also reports that she punched Kim in the face. I've seen both. So that's the here's the thing that's very different. Here's the thing, though. Kim was six. Oh, OK.

So literally not a teenager.

Like not that it's OK to punch a teenager in the face, but slapping. I think I would sure many I would like you said. Yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't I would not slap my child.

I don't I don't have any knee but definitely with slaps like but when I was being a bit I could see slapping a teenager in the face that I could understand that I understand totally. Right. And I think other people have probably there's one of them. There's not one thing on this planet Earth that a six year old does that they deserve to be slapped in the face. No, not now. So that's that's strange.

Now, from what I saw in all in every outlet, I got this information from Elizabeth called Surf Social Services on herself. Oh, yes. OK. And said this happened OK, which I'm like, that's weird. Wowsers. Maybe she just like maybe she just immediately was like, I need to get my shit together.

So you need to do something that's very strange.

Well, Kim and Katy were taken away for a small time. That's well, they were like investigating this and doing the reporting and stuff. It was six months that they were taken away. It's a pretty long time. Yeah. And they were turned afterwards. But in that time they spent, you know, time in foster care. Yeah, six months. So, I mean, they returned after the six months.

Gram said that this was pretty much the point when, like Kim and Elizabeth's relationship just shattered. That makes what you make sense.

But then you're wondering like what happened before this because she slapped her in the face. So it's like they were all I know. I want to know why they were obviously not a close mother daughter to begin with.

So but I can't find anything about that when it's like you have to wonder. Obviously, Kim is like a sociopath. So it's like I'm not like we said, it's not OK to hit a six year old.

But I wonder what happened to like, that's the thing, not to make her get slapped, but do you know what I'm saying? But like, what led to that kind of right.

Reaction of just normal behaviour from a mother?

And I feel like the fact that she called on herself is even more telling because, yeah, it's almost like she broke for a second and then was like, oh, fuck, what did I do exactly?

That's what it seems me and I couldn't find any information about like before this. So, yeah, we're all just I mean, we're just here to speculate about it. But either way, that's obviously a very worrisome thing. Yeah. Like that's not good, right. Doesn't equal you should murder your mother when you're fourteen.

But you know or or ever that's just something, you know, forever.

But so. Yeah. So this is that was definitely a tipping point, I would say probably within their relationship. But after the whole social services thing, Elizabeth had moved them into a new home on Dawson Avenue.

And it was like a housing unit, like, you know, kind of like almost like duplexes kind of thing, like big apartment buildings or condos.

Sure. Things can definitely still did not have a good relationship with her mom. They were fighting a lot.

She was very jealous of her sister, Kate. I was I had a feeling very jealous. They fought all the time. And Katie and her didn't fight all the time.

She took it out on her mom that they were close and she wasn't. So she didn't take it out too much on Katie, from what I could see. And Katie was her younger sister only by a year. I was going to Irish twins right now.

So and at the time, though, and this is from Kim, nobody else says this.

Kim says that her mother would often tell her you're just like your father who had abandoned them when she was young and who had like abused drugs and was violent, like it was bad. And so in Kim and and Katie, for that matter.

But mostly Kim had seen violence when she was younger between her father.

Yeah. Her father did abuse her mother. Well, and I'm sure she harbored a lot of resentment toward her father. And to be told that you're like the parent that you resent sucks.

Yeah. That's got to be hugely triggering. Yeah. But that's also from Kim, like lying sociopath. They will see she's very unemotional and is disconnected from most likely trying to justify her actions.

Yeah. You know, Kim said she felt like the you know, the black sheep, she said Katie got all the attention.

And she said and one of the interviews later, Kim does say, you know, we just didn't get along.

Me and my mom from when I was younger. And she says, you know, she clearly loved my sister more favored it, my sister more. And they're like, you, OK? Did she tell you that?

And she was like, no, she never came out and said it, but I just knew it. OK, so it's like, you know, it seems like a sibling rivalry thing. Yeah. She's just being like, yeah, of course she didn't say it, but like, I just know it. Well, you do know who the parents favorite.

So of course, the partner. Graham says there was never any favoritism between them again. He just says they had different relationships and Kim just didn't like hers with her mother. She just wasn't happy with it and she didn't know how to change it. So Lucas Markham, the boyfriend, was actually born, Stan Lucas Markham. He was born August 1st, 2001.

This is really triggering and was born in Peterborough, Peterborough, Peterborough. That's it. Peterborough. I did bring a bottle high five Stormi UK listeners, high fives. All right. I probably got it wrong. And they're going to like kind of like. Yeah, and you could put your hand down.

Peterborough so he grew up also in an abusive home.

Well you said he had lived with his aunt, so I wondered what the story was. Yes. So he when he was four years old, his mother died of leukemia.

Oh, that's horrific. So that's huge. I mean, for my kids or for. That's a big blow. Well, yeah.

You know you know, your mom at that point did a lot very connected at that point. His father was abusive and alcoholic.

He wasn't a good guy. So he immediately was in and out of foster care like his dad just didn't want to take care of it. His aunt finally took him in for good, became his guardian. Yeah. So he had a lot of troubled stuff.

And we're going to talk a little bit more about him and his way of like we're going to talk about how Kim and him were as teenagers.

But we want to know how these two met. How did they come together? Like a history class?

Yeah, almost one day in eighth grade. Yes. Lucas threw a chair across the room in English class in a fit of rage. Oh, and Kim was in that class and she was like, oh, that's my man.

Oh.

Normally I was like, let's not sit near that guy at lunch. I know. She was like, fuck me up. That's him. That's my guy. Wow. OK, now different strokes for different folks.

He was a known asshole. He was known to be very aggressive, just very unpredictable. Some people are really into that. She was into it, OK?

He's saying he was angry, he was detached. And the only thing that made him, like, attached to anything was Kim and Kim showed that she was interested and he was like, well, you're mine, too.

So they immediately it's like all her her issues that she's bringing to the table and all his issues that he's bringing to the table, they just met each other and we're like, Woo! And just formed this.

They found what they thought they were missing in each other. Exactly. This fucked up bond that they are just going to become way too attached to it.

It's never good to only have your partner in it becomes a Bonnie and Clyde that's against the world, you know, ending in a blaze of glory. Yeah. It's just it's never good. And they think they get each other because of their, like, trauma and like nobody else does. Yeah, no one gets us.

Now, according to court documents, they were also obsessed with talking about suicide. And it mentions that they did this often with one other girl, but she isn't named in the court documents.

Interesting.

They had a super obviously toxic and very codependent relationship with each other right off the bat.

Again, they're only fourteen, right.

So already having too attached of a relationship is not a good thing at that age because you're like, OK, calm down. Yeah, but having the kind of toxic co-dependent just like us against the world kind of relationship, A14 just is no good. No. And obviously no one was happy with that around them.

They were often later compared to Meira Hensley and Ian Brady. OK, because apart, sure they were you know, they had some fucked up shit going on.

They both came from kind of like crazy upbringings. But it was together that they became lethal.

OK, like Myra Hindley and Ian Brady, just like a they were fucked up.

And sure, they probably weren't people you wanted to, like, be in a dark alley with.

But when they found each other, what it was like, the explosion of the spark, everyone I saw said that apart.

If they had never got together, they don't think this would have happened. They don't think that the mother would have been murdered. Thank you.

God awful sister would have been murdered. This could have been avoided if they weren't together. OK, so that's not good. No.

Now, Lucas was he had a tough go.

I mean, all right.

Off the bat and then all the way through, not sad. He was bullied constantly. Oh. That's no OK. Yeah, and then she started getting bullied because she was dating him. OK, so it further cemented their US against the world. No one gets us.

I just don't understand bullying. No, I don't get it.

I'll never get it. I really won't. But friends said they that they were creeped out with how attached and close they were.

Like they were like, well when you're 14 two you're like like like come down. I come over for a sleepover and like not hang out with your boyfriend, like please.

And Lucas was always at the Edwards house, but it wasn't like he was this welcome presence at the Edwards house. Right. Grimm said he immediately didn't like Lucas as soon as he met him. Well, you get a vibe. He said he had a super attitude, like way to like full of himself. He was quiet and arrogant, like just shitty to everybody and like, get out of my house, my fourteen year old fuck face.

Well, and Graham also said he wore the same clothes all the time and never washed.

That's disgusting. So he was like, yeah, you're gross. Please leave now. According to court documents, he was also violent and aggressive, like all the time.

Like I don't know if you could tell by him throwing a chair across an English class, it's a good indicator he would punch in, headbutt walls and doors at home like he had a buddy.

Yeah, he had a lot of, like, outbursts.

That sounds like some like something that hasn't been diagnosed, do you know what I mean?

But they did do a psychological, you know, assessment of Shergar, and he's fine.

Yeah. Wow. They were also a ton of physical fights between him and his younger brother.

And his poor aunt was like trying to get help for him. And he was like she was like, I have no idea what to do. She would call the police and be like, help me. She just didn't know what to do that poor.

While he would also sell Kamelot, Kim also was known to self-harm. It seems to me like there's just so much going on. Yeah, I think there was a lot that was that was happening when they were born.

And then I think nurture took over from there.

This is very sad. This is a nature and nurture case for sure. So Lucas also definitely had an abandonment issue. Like I was clear that he because his mother had died when he was four, his father had abandoned him and he was shoved into foster and foster care. You get attached, then you have to go and then you get attached and you have to go. Exactly.

So he already has this crazy control issue. Yeah. And he was known to become most violent and physically and verbally aggressive if that was like threatened when he loses any sense of control or when he was criticized at all, and especially if he was criticized by an adult or someone in authority, that that stems from all of that. Yeah, it's a total abandonment issue right now.

By summer 2015, Lucas was getting at a ton of trouble at school because, again, he threw a chair across an English class.

God only knows what else he was doing and all the other classes. He ended up being put in this special pod for like troubled teens shit. And it was like they would all just be in this one class. Elizabeth was not into Lucas either. She's not like him dating her daughter.

She was very worried.

Well, she's like Kim already has an attitude problem. Like this is the last thing she needs, I bet. Yeah.

And she was like, he's a really bad influence on her. And then she could see how close they were and how obsessive they were. And they were already in a sexual relationship.

And she found that out and she was freaking out. Yeah. Fourteen years old.

Of course, any parent's going to be like, oh yeah, I hope so.

Elizabeth finally in 2015, banned him from coming over and did not come to the house. Oh. Now Kim and Lucas in response to this, ran away together and they lived in a tent in the woods for six days.

What I mean, impressive. No one knew where they were like.

They just they took clothes and food and all that stuff. And they just took off, lived in this tent in the woods for six days.

And apparently they were finally found after the six days by people recognize them when they went into town, like, hey, you have to go home and they bring them home.

Apparently at school, everybody found out about this and they thought it was hilarious, like because they were just a joke.

That's really sad.

They were sent back to their homes and Elizabeth referred to them at this time as a ticking time bomb waiting to go off like so she knew she was like something bad is happening.

Right?

Because if my fourteen year old ran away with her fucking crazy boyfriend and they were both already showing these signs. Right. Ran away and lived in a tent in the woods for six days, I be like, oh yeah.

Well, imagine is it because what are you supposed to do.

Like what do you do, what are your options. Right. Like she's already showed you that you can't really do anything.

It's like you banned this kid from your house and they run away together, so. Right. Like what option is there?

Like honestly at this point I'd be like, well, we have to put you in prison in my own house and you don't get to leave.

I don't even know what you even Jasmine Richardson's parents did that member and he would like something happened. Yeah, same thing happened. That's why these cases scare the shit out. I was going to say because. The helplessness that comes along with this, and I just I was looking at this case and then this morning I woke up and like the girls came bouncing down the stairs and I was like, please love me forever.

Like, I was like, please don't bring home Lucas or Jeremy, you know, like, I swear. No offense to any Lucas or Jeremy listening. But I swear if one of them brings home one of the themes that I'm going to be like, no, no, not OK. Sorry, sorry. We have a strict policy in this house and I will have a bone saw at home and I'll be like, this is what will happen to you.

But I'm just happy I'm going to be the scariest mom. Oh man. So, so, yes. So now it's a ticking time bomb. Shit's going down. Right. So after this is when Kim really amped up the self harming, which she was sad.

It's all sad. This whole thing is very weird. Do you know if she was put in therapy or anything like that? They definitely tried.

She was assessed by different psychologists. A lot of different psychologists said she's just an angry kid.

And they were like, this does stem from you know, her father left when you were young, abandonment. There was an abuse in the house. You know, she was part of the abuse in the house at a time. Right. This is all just pretty par for the course.

Like she's not being. Yeah. And I think they were also I think part of the problem here was she wasn't I don't think she was.

It's hard to explain because this is no one's fault, you know what I mean? Like, it's just all a culmination of shit. Yeah. And it's obviously Kim and Lucas's fault. Yeah, obviously.

But I mean, like creating this. Yeah. Different thing. But I think she just wasn't she needed it.

She needed a little more than she.

It's again the the parent and the child are not always the right fit for each other and I don't think she was just not getting and I hope nobody thinks I'm saying that in a way where it's like it's the mom's fault or.

No, I mean, it is her fault that she killed her mom. But, like, it's not her fault before that.

Yeah, it's it's hard to explain and it's hard to put into words. At the end of the day, Kim is to blame here. She's a fucking murderer. So is Lucas right by the book.

But we all we we like to look at how these things form, you know. Yeah. Especially when it has to do with a child and a mother. You got parent and kid. Relationships are always interesting to me. Yeah. You have to look at it deeper.

And I think what was happening was Kim obviously had all those background things and she needed something that she wasn't getting psychologically.

I think I think she needs some deeper, some deeper look at her psyche and, you know, maybe she didn't even know what she needed.

And to be honest with the way you hear talk about it later, it might not have helped.

Yeah, to be quite honest, because she's very detached from this whole and from emotions. Sometimes they're just born that way. Sometimes you are just a sociopath and that's the way it is. But put that on the shirt. But sometimes you're just a sociopath and that's the way it is to small, small things. Small font. Yeah. You know, so after this, in 2016, Kim did confide in a teacher that she felt close to that.

She wrote this teacher a letter and it said, I have tried to remain strong, but I can't fight anymore. Now I feel that death is the only way.

Oh, can you imagine being the poor teacher that gets that? Yes. Well, this teacher did the right thing. They referred her to a mental health service for youth at the time she was seen and she was released.

They did not think anything was concerning.

OK, so in March 2016, Lucas was expelled from school and was sent to another school, which was an hour and a half away.

So Kim and he could not see each other at school during the day anymore. So that was not good. Obviously, she became depressed. He was upset. They could only see each other at night and they couldn't see each other at Kim's house.

So it was becoming the world is pulling us apart. Right. What do we do?

How do we fight again? We break up. We go our separate ways. The end. Nope. So she did attempt suicide by taking an overdose of pills. Oh, that's sad.

People at the school, according to some of the people that were interviewed, kids at the school, like we're joking about this.

Yeah. Because kids are fucking horrible. Tzadik, I remember like things like this, not completely like the same, but I remember like things like that happen, happening. And kids are just like, oh, like that girl's a weirdo. Like she tried to kill herself. Yeah. It's like like yeah that's fucked up. They don't understand the gravity of what it is because your frontal lobe hasn't developed in your shit, especially 8th grade 9th that you, your children.

And that's why I feel like that's when a lot of people have these problems. It's like eighth grade because it's it's a hard age. It is. Yeah. It's a really hard time, too.

I mean, I'm sure everybody can agree, unless you're one of those, like, magical uniforms that were like junior high was the best for me.

Yeah. Like, it's a tough time. It is. There's a lot going on because it's like puberty is happening. Lots of like coming of age. Things are right. It's just too much.

It's a lot to deal with. Yeah. Obviously that is.

And everybody has a different whole life. It's like yeah.

So I feel like a lot of that stuff happens and kids never know how to deal with it. So just make it easy so kids are fucked. That story, as we slowly adjust to a new normal, we still need to be smart about how we do business. Luckily, there stamps.com to make things easier. Thousands of small business owners have discovered the benefits of Stamps.com in recent months. They've been able to keep their businesses running and avoid the crowds at the post office, all from their own computers.

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So once she was released from the hospital, they again, everybody's trying to break these two up, they're trying to keep them apart, but they are just refusing to part ways. April 3rd, she this is interesting. She posted on Facebook April 3rd. And it was like this moody, angsty photo.

It's like black and white. And it's her just like looking moodily at the camera with no smile.

And is it on picnic? Yeah. And she has glasses on. It's in black and white.

And her mother, Elizabeth, commented on the photo.

Now, that's a fucking hate when my mom would comment on my fucking Facebook things. Wow. OK, I get so mad.

Hello. I'm four hundred and thirty years old, so I didn't have to deal with that. I'm very happy about it.

The words I'm like, whoa, now this is April 3rd. This is days before these murders happen, like a couple of weeks.

What did she comment.

So she comments, where's your beautiful smile. Oh, and Kim responds, it disappeared. And her mother says, Why huhn? And she responds, I don't know.

And then she follows it by emojis of a panda, a bear, a unicorn, a cookie, a smiley face with glasses, another smiley face and then an upside down smiley face.

OK, and I was like, so like all her recent emojis, probably, I guess well in her mother says, I think it's under your bed, lol.

Oh, she's like, I'm trying to get you and I don't. Well, and then Kim responds with, like, this cute little picture, like a cartoon dog sleeping in bed like a little gif.

And this is like a few days before she brutally murdered her.

And then her mom responds with, like, another cartoon in bed, like they had a funny well, they obviously didn't have like so it seems like now it seems like her mother was trying and I think it just was too far gone. So April 9th, she stayed at Lucas's house against her. Her mother had told her no, and she stayed there anyway. So she came home the next day and found that her mother had put all her stuff into bags and given it to her younger sister, Katie.

It's a weird punish and had gotten rid of like put other stuff in bags as like a punishment, like emptying out your room.

OK, so from the court documents directly, it says doubtless, doubtless because of their unhappiness together, the two had previously run away from home. They were found some miles away and then returned to their families.

This is talking about the tenth. Yep. Yep.

Over the weekend before the killings, they barricaded themselves in Lucas Markham's room before leaving through a window, returning to Kim Edwards is home to in order to collect her contraceptives.

When they returned to Lucas, Marcum was rugby tackled and restrained by his family. And Kim Edwards was returned to her home where she found her mother had moved her belongings from the room she shared with her younger sister. Lucas Markham's room had been cleared out by his family as well. OK, so I think what had happened here and again, I'm not seeing anybody is right or wrong here, like in the sense of parenting.

We're just assessing the situation right in this situation.

Lucas's aunt and family.

Yeah, we're like, we're done.

We're done like you. I'm sure you reach a point where you're like, I don't know what to fucking do with this kid.

I don't know what to do.

That's like when I wouldn't clean my room and Papa would put all my stuff in trash bags and leave it in my room and be like, oh yeah, clean it up.

My parents, my dad was always like, I will give you a couple of shots to clean that room.

And he always gave, like I always got a lot of she gave a lot of shots, but he would tell me, you have OJ row, all of your stuff in this room on into the backyard. Yeah. And you will have to pick it all up. He never threw my stuff in the backyard, but I came home from school one day and all my stuff was in trash bags and I was livid. But but I clean. Oh yeah.

Yeah. I kept it real clean.

And he actually actually he did it to my older sister, my mom. He and I remember one day because they were horrible, they were like keeping your filthy pigs.

And my dad literally took everything in her room and threw it out the back window onto the back.

And it was like and he was like, well, I guess you'll keep it clean from there, because my parents were not like screamers or no hitters or anything like that. They did shit like that.

You were like, oh, shit, I feel like that's better. I think I think you learn more from it. Yeah. Because it doesn't hurt anybody. It's just like it just pisses you off and it pisses you off. But you still have to, you got to get your stuff back out of the bags. It's a big inconvenience. That's what it is. They say we'll do it. So I think Lucas is on and his family were like, let's just empty out his fucking room.

Because if they're going to hole up in there and barricade themselves in his room, like, fuck you, man, this is in my house. This isn't your room, right? Like, I'm going to empty it out.

Yeah, you can have an empty cell. And I think her mom was doing the same thing. She was like, you know what, Garagos? All your stuff you're not going to listen to. I mean, you two are just going to continue this shit. So it's like you understand that.

But I wonder if they talk to each other like that on to the mom. They might have. I wonder. Yeah, they might have made a plan. Yeah, they might have. Well, this was the moment that they both were like, we're going to kill Elizabeth and Katie now. Yeah.

Why did they why did Katie and also it's weird to me that they didn't like I'm happy they didn't kill the aunt. But like, why is it her family? Because the aunt was not.

What they felt was that Elizabeth was more involved with trying to keep them apart than it was. And was Katie just like collateral? Well, we'll find that out. But one of the other things on top of it was that Kim uses the my sister is the favorite.

OK, OK. And that's the other thing. So she wants to kill her mom for not giving her the attention she gives Katie. And then Katie's got to go because she's the object of the attention.

So in the days leading up to the murder, now, they were planning it thoroughly. Mm hmm.

They cannot use this whole like we just decided to do it. No, they sat and planned this. Oh, God. They sat in a McDonald's and, you know, ate Happy Meals and talked about ruining fast food restaurants for me.

They took romantic walks and talked about it. They had it totally planned. So initially they planned for him to take four knives out of his own songs.

Jesus Walk to the Edwards Home, which is about three quarters of a mile away. Oh, not far at all. It was going to be in the middle of the night. Kim was going to let him through and through window. He was going to tap three times and that's how she looks cute and so and then they were in what they initially planned was that Lucas was going to kill Elizabeth and Kim was going to kill Katie.

OK. That was their plan. Now, they tried this two times, oh, April 11th and April 12th.

But each time he would come and knock and Kim had fallen asleep. Now, while I'm glad everybody. Hear this again, they had planned to kill her mother and her sister, and on the nights they had this planned, she fell asleep. She fell asleep.

So it didn't mean anything to fall asleep knowing that you were about to kill your mother and your sister with butcher knives in your home with your boyfriend.

No, that to me is like disconnected out of oh, reality bitches on a different planet, like a different wavelength.

She's not even here with us like this is this is so evil.

It's like, well, she was in Kim's world. She wasn't like, you know what I mean? Well, that's one of the things that is a really, like, strong thread through this is that Kim is very egotistical and very entitled.

Yeah, you can tell she wants to be in a relationship with Lucas. She wants it how she wants it. She wants to have sex with him. And no one told her anything about it. She wants to do this. She wants her mother treated this way. She wants all the attention.

She's getting it. And she's pissed about it. Right. And that's that's what this is about. She's 14, so already you're pretty entitled when you're 14.

And then obviously there's a lot more that goes into it with her because she's so fucking relaxed on those two nights that she's dozes into dreamland. That's bananas. So finally, on April 13th, they try for the third and final time.

She, like, got a coffee that apparently so Lucas took four knives from his aunt's house, walked that three quarters of a mile to their house. He had a long time to think about it.

And they've had three different tries to school.

This he took he went under like in the darkest path he could go so no one would see him.

He hopped a back wall in the back garden and then he went to the window and he tapped on the window three times. OK, now, Kim let him in through the window.

Yeah. And the way Lucas described it later was she looks out the window, she sees me there, she waves. I put my thumbs up and she goes to the bathroom window. She opens the bathroom window. I pass my bag through and then I go through and then she opens my bag. I take a knife out and pass her a knife.

She holds it the knife, but she holds the knife. Sure. Did she hold that knife? So she holds the knife but never used the knife.

Then I went into her mom's her mum's room and stabbed her in the neck while she was asleep on her side and then smothered her face with the pillow. Oh, God. And he says this like he is telling you a grocery list.

He was like and then I went on the potato aisle and got potatoes because, you know, this is like, well, obviously a potato and domesticity.

And he's like, yeah, I just, you know, and then I went and they didn't have my favorite chips, so I went and got different chips.

It's literally but I decided I needed some ginger ale and he's like, so she was asleep on her side and I smothered her face with a pillow at the end.

I hope at least that she didn't suffer the tedium. Oh, yeah, they both did.

Oh, that's you're welcome. He used an eight inch butcher knife to do it. Elizabeth was stabbed eight times, including five times in her hands as she tried to defend.

Oh, no. One of the two blows to her neck almost completely cut through her windpipe. Oh, God. They intentionally cut the throats to stop them from crying out.

They later said they had planned that.

That is dark. Yeah.

They both said, well, the voice box is there, so we figured we would cut that off right away so they couldn't cry. That's your mother and your sister. Yeah, like they are superguy about them, like less than like animals, like less than like an aunt you would step on on the sidewalk like God.

And when Kim was asked about it, she said she heard gurgling and struggling. Oh. And so she went into the room to check to see if Lucas was OK.

That's how she puts it. She says, quote, He was on top of her with a pillow over her head. I thought I heard her say, get off me. After about 10 minutes of Lucas putting her weight on her, she was dead. Now he says she says 10 minutes. She's a fucking idiot because it wasn't ten minutes. It doesn't take 10 minutes to smother someone. Right. And Lucas says it was barely three minutes. I was going to do it, but she's like, ten minutes.

I'm like, do you know what time is Kim?

Maybe time is different.

And Kim world, everything's different. And Kim world. Yeah, but she says and she says she heard these noises and went in there desperately to check on Lucas, not to check on Vata because she worried about her mother at all obviously.

But like for her to say, like I wanted to check on him. Like what.

It's insane as he murders your mother, like you're hearing noises and you're like, I hope he's OK. Right? So she says and this is this is tough.

She says, you know, so Kim says, All I could see was her shoulder and arms. She was struggling. She reached out her hand. So I grabbed it and kind of held it.

As I realized it was her hand, I instantly pulled my hand back.

Oh, my God. So she meant to grab Lucas's hand, but her poor mother, as she was dying, reached out to her to hold her hand and she grabbed it unknowingly. When she realized she grabbed it, she pulled away in disgust.

So her mother is dying and being murdered brutally by this little fucking asshole, and she pulls her hand away and it's like, oh, I thought that was Lukas's what like what happened in your fucking brain?

Like what happened to you?

There is just nothing there that is that is like darker than dark.

And they say later I mean, they've come to the conclusion with that, like they don't think she can be rehabilitated.

She's no, she's this is not one of those things where it's like when maybe she'll learn the error of her ways, like how they let JASMUHEEN Richardson.

I don't think that should have played on that. No, they absolutely shouldn't have.

I mean, me that the part really hurt my heart.

But Lucas checked her pulse and confirmed she was dead.

So next in their minds.

And then Katy, now, originally, like I said, she was supposed to kill Katy. Right. But she said she couldn't do it. She couldn't mentally get herself to do it. So Lucas was like, well, I'll do it.

OK, I she he says I went into Katie's room, which is the same as Kim's. I thought I stabbed her, but I'm not 100 percent sure if it was like her or the mattress.

Oh my God. And then I smothered her face with a pillow to then Kim asked him, did she struggle? And he said no. And he said, is she dead? And he said, yes. And then he said, then she saw it. Then she sort of said, take off your clothes because they're covered in blood. So I did.

And then we ran a bath and had a bath together because we were both kind of dirty because she helped take the blood off my face and shirt.

So they had a bath like basically across the hall from her dead mother and sister.

Just had a nice romantic bath together. OK, yeah, they actually had a blood bath. They literally had a blood bath. That's fine.

He also said he was kind of bummed because he said he was planning to wear that shirt again, that, you know, he didn't wash them, but he was pissed that I had blood on it.

Like that's what he was thinking of, like I president and what he was planning to wear that shirt again. Right. It was like, no, I'd like to wear this and just go to school in the shirt.

Like what? So one of the other grisly details of this is that Lucas said when he slashed Katie's throat, she said, I can't and then couldn't finish my breathe. Oh, and Kim said she heard this. She said she described it as, quote, a scary voice, which was, quote, all croaky.

Oh, she just doesn't like it was scary and croaky as your little sister is being murdered by your boyfriend.

She doesn't think of these people as like her mother and her little sister, like she just thinks of them is like in the way her and Lucas.

So like we said, they took the bath together and then Kim dragged the mattress from her sister's room, her own mattress, because I was going to say the one that she just killed her sister.

Nobody was from the same. Right. Right. So she grabbed the mattress right next to her where her sister lay brutally butchered right next to her blood everywhere.

I was going to say, you know, just easily take a mattress out of her know like they were in there for a bit.

She dragged it out of the room. She brought it downstairs to the living room. They had sex. Of course, I knew that was coming. Then they watched TV together while eating ice cream, snuggled under a blanket on the mattress for three days, drank alcohol from the cabinet. And right after this happened, so they had sex, they got some ice cream. Then they watched all four twilights.

That's why this is called the toilet. This is why this is called the Twilight murder. And honestly, I get it, because that is so shocking. Like what you watched all four twilights. First of all, you just murdered two people, your mother and your sister. And two you watched all four twilights actually. Wait, isn't there five twilights? I don't know. They watched four of them. Wow, like, fuck, because there's the regular one, though, there's New Moon and there's a clip from the other side because there's Breaking Dawn, part one and two.

Well, I guess they only watched. Maybe they were good.

I wanted to say I'm glad that they didn't get to watch part five.

There you go. Or maybe they watched Breaking Dawn one and two together, maybe whatever. I'm pissed either way. They sat and watched their violent movies, which I'm sure they considered themselves like Edward and Bella.

You know that. Except that they didn't kill their parents. No, but they were, you know, like like we just love each other.

No one wants us to be together and we have to do what we have to do.

That's a lot. Yeah. So Twilight murdered a lot to unpack there.

So they had planned initially to complete suicide together after this, but they didn't do it.

Obviously, they wrote a suicide note entitled Fuck You World, and it said, fuck you world. How angsty.

And it also said, I want to be cremated and I want mine and Lucas's ashes scattered at a special place.

We don't I think, oh, you I'm so I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I just got so mad.

I'm sorry is I want to be cremated and I want mine and Lucas's ashes scattered at our special place. We don't give a fuck anymore.

OK, can I go now? You think that we're going to just scatter your ashes in a special fucking place? Yeah, because you know what? Ted Bundy, his ashes were scattered where he put his victims. What?

You know that. No, I said that in the episode. I don't think so. I'm pretty sure I did. I mean, it was a long time ago. Yeah. How my memory works.

That's just final. Fuck you to his victims, where he used to put all like his little garden of, like, skulls that he would come up there and who did that shit?

They have to the law.

I'd lie. I break the law for that. Somebody he was scattered up there. She's a mostly law abiding citizen. But she'd break the law for that. She says herself.

Well, and don't worry, because they weren't actually planning on killing themselves. They did that, as you know. I think that was like theatrics, their contingency plan. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So like I said, when police showed up, they're sitting together under a blanket on that mattress eating ice cream, simply.

Sablan, why don't you go upstairs and see? That's the scariest part to me of this whole thing. Oh, yeah, it's terrifying. So let's hammer in what they had done and what they were sitting with in the house for 36 hours. So the pathologist pathologist said that Elizabeth, again, was stabbed eight times, five in the hands when she tried to fight him off. There was one located to her right shoulder to to her neck. The stab wounds to the neck had resulted in severing her internal jugular veins.

One had almost completely severed her windpipe and the cause of death was stab wounds to the neck. And the injuries were not instantly fatal.

Oh, no.

There was evidence that she survived for at least a short time as they were being inflicted and a little bit after the degree of force used was, they said, pretty moderate because the tracks of the wounds had not passed through any bone tissue. OK, so to the body of 13 year old Katie, he said there were two stab wounds to the neck. One had entered the left side, resulting in a small defect within the right vertical artery, vertical artery.

This caused a moderate amount of bleeding, but not not enough volume of bleeding to have really, like, messed with her cerebral blood flow to really be like the absolute cause of death.

Her body was found with a pillow over her face and they examined her lungs and they said that she'd probably died from a hemorrhage, from a stab wound to the neck and also smothering.

Oh, my God, there was an injury to one of her vertebra, which suggests that there was severe force with the stab to go all the way through to her vertebrae.

Right. Initially, Lucas would not speak to the police when he was arrested. He was like, no sharp anything.

But Kim was just like, sit down and let me tell you what happened from the beginning.

She probably thought that she was like, cool. Well, she just didn't care. Right? It wasn't even I'm cool. It's like I literally just don't care.

So here's the story. That's insane. They said she had zero remorse, like none. And when they even asked her, she was like, no, I don't care.

I always am like, imagine. But imagine being the investigator that had to talk to her. No, I mean, like, I don't want to be in the same room as you can. We do this through a double sided.

Yeah, I don't want to do this. Well, because they were both 14. The media couldn't name them initially when they arrested, you know, because of age.

It was seven months until the trial happened. The town was freaking out.

There were rumours starting about who the hell it could have been. Obviously, people were already being like it was probably her daughter in the morgue.

They were finally named in June 2017 when the reporting restriction was lifted, that this is when people start remembering all these red flags, that they're like, huh, so people. Ed Lucas was obsessed with this case that had happened 10 months earlier than the murders of Elizabeth and Katie, and it was had happened very close by.

And it was a 42 year old man, Warren Free, who was their friend, Adam's father.

Oh. And he had been attacked by local teens and killed Jesus at his home. What's up with the teenagers in this place? Yes, it was three a.m. and some teens were destroying his fence.

So he came out holding them like a metal pipe and just let them stop the they attacked him and beat him with the pipe, killing him on his front porch.

These these kids got away with it. How? They just couldn't be identified.

Yeah. Was that really like what's really sorry. Oh my. But yeah. I don't I'm sorry if I just burst into your car speakers. Yeah.

I don't know how they got away with it, but they just could identify it I guess and. Well they were, they went to trial.

I don't know how they got off somehow. But Lucas Lucas was very intrigued by this. Yeah. And Adams said Lucas was initially trying to be like supportive of him and be like, oh, I'm really sorry that your dad got murdered on your porch.

But he was more concerned, it seemed, with how they got away with it and what it actually happened, like the grisly details on it.

He was already probably thinking about killing Elizabeth.

He was already in that, like, weird place. So when police asked, how'd you come up with this plan to Lucas and Kim? Kim told police, we just went on general knowledge, really, because the voicebox, the stabbing in the throat, in the bath because of the dog.

So she wouldn't smell the blood. Once you left the room, a bloody fucking mess. What do you mean you took a bath because the dog would smell the blood? The room was full of blood, you dumb ass, right? What?

And she said also, Lucas doesn't like the smell of blood. How do you know once? How do you know that? Like what? How have you smelled that much blood that, you know, you don't like the smell like you?

I don't think anybody wants to smell blood, really. I'm sure some people do.

But like, I don't think that's something many of us think about now. Like you've had enough around you that you've just sniffed it enough that I don't even actually think of like, I have that much of a like I don't think I've been around enough blood to smell to know what it smells. It definitely does.

And it's not like I don't want to smell blood, but like to have an opinion about it to the fact that, like, she's like, well, look, I know for a fact that's one of his faults, not it's one of his weird neuroses that he doesn't like the smell of blood.

Yes.

Strange.

OK, well, you know, she later told the psychiatrist, I wanted to get revenge for the way that my mother treated me. She would. She then said I did not feel anything for my mother.

She deserved it and I'm glad she's dead. And then Lucas described that he said when Himan Kim first got together, he said he felt wanted. He felt needed. And he said then I felt like I had to protect her from any perceived threat. OK, so when he committed the murders, he said he was very calm.

He felt very happy because he said he was protecting him. Right. From the threat. Yeah. Because her mom was so threatening. Yeah. So Kim says after you know about the about the whole thing, she says, we felt laid back about what had happened. Neither neither one of us felt bad about it. Like, she's just like, I don't give a shit. That's insane to me.

And the detective chief inspector, Martin Hovey said, quote, The fact of what happened in those 36 hours after and how she they carried on as normal watching TV, watching a film, going upstairs to use the toilet while people are lying dead upstairs.

It defies belief. It does. And he said he didn't even have a precedent for this. He was like, I've never seen anything like this.

I thought, wow.

They also they also considered it more Kim considered it that she was doing a favor to her mother. She said, quote, My mom doesn't have to deal with me anymore being, like, suicidal. And she doesn't have to wake up worrying every morning to see if I'm still alive.

And then she said about Katie that she said she saved her from going through, quote, the heartbreak and just all the emotions and stuff.

What a hero you are, girl. So she thinks she is.

She's doing everybody a favor. Like even now she's like, no, I did the right thing.

And it's like, OK, but you just get to live the rest of your life. Obviously, she's in jail, but it's like. Yeah, it's like that makes sense a lot.

OK, and so they were both initially charged with murder.

And in the UK, anyone over the age of 10, you are criminally responsible for your actions.

Oh wow. It's not like a minor thing where, like, you don't get murder because you're not 18 consenting and.

Well, the defense tried to use mental instability. Obviously, they were going to go for the insanity defense. So they were looking to get manslaughter by way of diminished responsibility.

So a psychiatric report by Dr. Oliver White on August 15th, 2016, this is from the court documents, said that Lucas Markham was not then suffering either from a severe or enduring mental illness or from a depressive episode.

Although his mood instability was an important feature of his emerging personality structure, he recounted the history of his experiences of domestic violence between his parents and the multiple different foster care placements, which flowed from the breakdown of their relationship, culminating in his living with his aunt from the age of four or five, which was around the time his mother died of cancer.

He had a long standing, difficult relationship with his father, which appeared to have been highly influenced by his father's drinking, resulting in a lack of care, supervision and nurturing to the children.

A consequence of his experiences during his childhood was that he had lacked the opportunity to develop skills and self-regulation of his own emotions. It was assessed that his specific emerging personality traits were in the domains of emotionally unstable, antisocial personality disorder.

But due to his age, he fell short of a formal diagnosis of personality disorder.

OK, the doctor also said that Lucas Marcum had a high risk of continuing his trajectory with regards to his personal development personality development, such as that formal diagnosis of personality disorder.

It was probably going to happen when he was an adult. He was like there.

If we let this go and this had never happened, he would definitely have been for a disease like crossing off the things on the way.

There was also another report on September 5th, 2016, and this was Dr. Tracy King, who's a psychologist.

They said there were no concerns regarding his intellectual function, his intellectual functioning, such that might have led to a greater tendency to be influenced by others or to not understand the consequences of his actions.

OK, were like he knows what he did. Yeah.

He also had a history of early childhood trauma. They said the domestic violence, the father's drinking, that was an issue.

They said these definitely these experiences had shown to have organic neurochemical correlates in the brain.

These could be there could be a gross alteration in the amygdala, the emotional center in your brain.

Oh, OK.

These would be evident in adulthood and would lead to emotional regulation difficulties like they're saying.

He just does not know how to regulate his emotions, his exposure to domestic violence in the fear that this would instill in a young child activated his primitive brain on a consistent fight or flight pathway.

So they were like because he was exposed to this violence and fear when he was younger of people he was supposed to trust around him. It immediately activated that fire fight or flight.

Yeah. And he was just constantly in a state of fight or flight. Right. Which brings you into that he learned a lot more towards fight. Exactly. Because it's like kind of had to from a young age.

I just kind of like is always in the state of like somebody is going to hurt me. So I'm going to hurt people first kind of thing. And it says for him, this meant that minor threats and challenges could feel like a real threat to his existence, like he took everything is primitive, like I got to protect myself. And they said, so he's going to act disproportionately to these things.

Right. Obviously, that's really interesting that I liked that you wanted to. They said he's also when threatened. He's also very likely to experience a much higher degree of dissociative symptoms than would be normal.

So he will, like, just disassociate from like he's doing here. He's just telling it like, yeah, this is what he did. That's really interesting. Associates from a completely right. Yeah. So in the end, even though they found all these things where they're saying, you know, the fight or flight response is constantly activated and, you know, when he's an adult, he's probably going to be diagnosed with a personality disorder.

They said right now he doesn't he does not have an insanity defense.

He's not insane. Right. He knows what he did. He's very aware he's intellectually functioning well.

And even if you do have a personality disorder, that doesn't technically mean you're saying it's technically not.

You know, it doesn't certain ones, I'm sure conquerer can go with it. But what they're talking about doesn't seem to go with.

And typically insanity is just a break in your sanity. Yeah. Yeah. Or like, you know, just some mental disorder that makes it so you can't understand the contractions. Right. They said he definitely does. So in the end, they found that he was not going to get that defense. They had to give it up. I think it was like the day before his trial was set. They were like, yeah, you can't use that defense now.

Oh, imagine having them again. Imagine having to scramble to. Yeah. What are we going to say now? Exactly.

So he was first going to plead guilty to manslaughter, but now they had to change it to pleading guilty to murder. You can get manslaughter now.

Now, Kim was also going to use that insanity defense and she was going to plead guilty to slaughter.

Did it work for her because. No. Wow. And I said she's not technically insane is terrifying. No, because she understands the consequence. That's so crazy. I fully believe she understands.

Oh, I do, too. I'm just saying, like, so she should go because you don't want to give it to people who just seem insane. You know, I like somebody who literally is like, I don't understand what I did.

Like, wait, what? It's like a blackout. Yeah. But she's like, I don't want to give it to her. I'm just saying it's so crazy. It is that she did all of this and was like, yep, I did that. Yeah. It's insane truly. Exactly. But it's but it's not.

So Lucas forfeited his trial when he did his guilty plea, so he was just guilty. Now it's on to Kim. So Kim went to trial in October at Nottingham Crown Court, and she pled not guilty to murder and she claimed a mental illness.

And now she said that it was the mixture of her mental health and Lucas being controlling and controlling her every move that made turning on each other right away. Exactly.

So now turning on him because he didn't turn to and in fact, it was released that she was very detached from Lucas almost immediately.

Well, because she, like, probably has no actual attachments.

He did what she needed him to do and now she's done because she's only again, it's Kim's world. Yeah. She used him for what she needed him for. And he's gone now. Out of sight. Out of mind. Yeah.

And now he can deal with whatever he needs to do is wow. And it's like they were literally obsessed with each other to the point of murder.

But after he did it, she was just unconcerned.

She said, you know, whatever he gets, he gets I don't care. That's insane. Like, did not care.

And all of a sudden she's sitting there saying he was controlling and shit. It's like, what? Yeah. It's not controlling enough for her. Like you wanted to, like, run away with him and start your life together. But OK.

Yeah, he he she had no emotional response to his sentencing at all. She didn't care. So she was assessed and a consultant forensic psychiatrist named Phillip Joseph was the one to get some crazy shit out of her. So he said, I don't miss she said, I don't miss my mom and I'm glad she's dead, even though I'm in a sticky situation now. Oh, it's just a sticky situation.

She also said she deserved it. I'm glad she's dead. We felt laid back about what we had done. Neither one of us felt bad about it. And she said just the fact that it happened so quickly, that gave me peace of mind because, you know, it wasn't like torture or anything.

Oh, OK. Yeah. So that's good. At least it wasn't torture in your mind. She also said about her sister, she said she felt a bit sad about that.

A bit, yeah.

But so his conclusion in his report, which was September 22nd, 2016, that this girl is wild and she said she was not suffering from an abnormality of mental functioning caused by a recognised medical condition, and therefore, she did not have a defense to murder or manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility.

He said the family dynamics were explored. She had attachment difficulties with her mother. She and she explained the circumstances leading up to the killings of her mother and sister and said, yes, it was jointly planned and she was not forced to go along with it. She said. He did not force me to do it. I I wanted to do this with him. I wanted to do it.

Like she was very forthcoming about that because she just doesn't give a shit. She just doesn't give a shit.

And she said her mother was the main problem in her life. And she said she felt excited about the thought of killing her. And she remained glad after the fact that her mother was dead. She felt nothing, not a stitch of remorse. And she said she did kind of feel a little bad about Katie, right? She said she missed her a little bit. Yeah.

The doctor also said she did not accept or Dr. Joseph Philip Joseph said he did not accept the loss of her belongings in that one situation where, like, everything was.

Yeah, everything was taken as the tipping point. He did not accept that as like a trigger.

He was like, no, that's that happens to normal children.

And we just said it. They do it. They they got mad.

They move on. Like, we cannot call this the tipping point because that shouldn't be a tipping point. And a lot worse happens to people that don't kill their parents.

Exactly. He was like, no. And he was like, she has an adjustment disorder for sure. Yeah. Like, this is not cause for what she did. And they said and they said, right.

If she was suffering from full blown adjustment disorder, he said that she would not now continue to express satisfaction that her mother was dead.

He was like this would change if she was suffering from that. OK, that's not that's interesting. She's still sticking with this. I did it. I'm happy I did it. And she's dead. And that's fine. I feel nothing. So it's so scary. Yeah. And yeah, it's insane.

And then they had Dr. Liz Yeardley is a criminologist and she really specializes in child killers. She said the sibling rivalry thing that she was using that like, you know, Katie got more attention, all that.

That's why I killed my mom. She said, that's bullshit. That's not a motive. She yeah, I know plenty of people have sibling rivalry and they don't kill people. Yup. And she said it was just Kim's entitlement to do whatever she wanted, whenever she wanted. And it's part of her psychopathy. Essentially, he was she was like, people think it's really in Kim's head. The whole like my mom drives my sister better because friends and family were like, no, she didn't.

Favorite one.

Well, I just I mean, it's a very small thing, but take that Facebook post. It's not like she didn't give a fuck about her. Exactly.

She didn't ignore her. And then she was like and even in Graham said there was no favoritism. I did not see it.

Not that, you know, of course, she's going to say something nice, but it's like, well, I mean, even take the fact that they shared a room together. Yeah. It's not like Katie lived in this beautiful bedroom that Kim didn't have and Kim slept in the basement. Well, exactly.

It's like so both doctors were like, no, that is not no.

This is a bullshit motive that she's using to try to look like this, like, oh, poor me. Right. And it's like the real thing here is that she saw her mother as stopping her and Lucas from being together. She was pregnant. And it wasn't that she loved Lucas because she I don't think she had the capacity to love.

It's just what she wanted. She wanted it. She wasn't getting it.

And someone was telling her she couldn't have it. And Lucas was the person that was treating her like a princess and trying to give her everything.

And she wanted that.

She was like, don't take that away from me. And then they later say, I mean, the police ask Lucas straight up because again, Kim is claiming, you know, Katie died because she was the cause of my my mom not paying attention to Lucas.

Lucas says to the police they were like, why did Katie die? And he was like, well, she would have called the police. And they're like, is that it? And he goes, pretty much, oh. So that proves that that motive of sibling rivalry is bullshit, has nothing to do with it. Right. They killed Katie because she was a liability. She was just in the in the house and they had to get rid of her.

But Kim is sitting here trying to turn it into something so she can be seen as a sympathetic character.

Right. When in reality she wanted her mom dead. That was the end of it. She wanted to kill her mom because she stood in her way.

Katie just happened to be and he happened to be there.

I was I wish that Katie had been at a sleepover that I know I really do. And that Elizabeth was, too. I mean, seriously, I wish everybody was out of the house.

So two expert witnesses, those two ones were called to talk about mental Kim's mental state. And they again said no. They said, yeah, she definitely has some kind of adjustment disorder and she definitely has a severe attachment disorder and that obviously she's like not attached to anything.

Yeah.

And they were like, this can stem from what happened in childhood. I mean, her father abandoned. She was in foster care. The thing with her mom, it's a lot. Yeah.

So they were like for sure. But they were like, it's not a cause to give her the insanity defense. So they also said, quote, She seemed to enjoy the attention that she was receiving from a number of professionals and had suggested in the future writing a book about her life.

OK, this suggested that she had an inappropriate level of self-esteem and self-importance and also felt a sense of justification in the harm that she caused to her mother and sister, who she felt had wronged her.

So this proves to yeah, it had nothing to do with that. She's in love with her. She is an intellectual and she's probably a narcissist. She's for sure a narcissist. So the jury took to our sources are scary, say are. So the jury took two hours of deliberation and agreed that just because she had a shitty childhood does not mean you get diminished responsibility. So unanimous, a unanimous answer of guilty of murder. Good. So they were together and in court for their dual sentencing.

And the judge is a fucking legend with what he said. Yes, handed to me. I love good judges.

He said, quote, You were, in my view, in a hermetically sealed, pathetic world of your own, of deep, deep selfishness and immaturity, where only your feelings and desires matter and no one else's.

And then he said, I sentence you as children, which you are a sentence based on hope for you and for society rather than an expectation of your failure.

Shit.

But he's literally like, so you were in this pathetic little world that you guys are sucking gross guts and you're you know how like 14 year olds obviously, like I think the children are like and he's like, yeah, your children, your fucking children.

So they were both sentenced to life in prison with a minimum of 20 years. Good. Maysam. Twenty seventeen. They both appealed, saying that their age should be considered in sentencing. No. And it was reduced to life. Well, they still were life, but they had a minimum now of seventeen and a half years was a reduction a lot.

And this was when their identities were officially made public.

In twenty seventeen, Elizabeth Edwards partner Graham said that he saw Edwards, Kim and Lucas as quote, another Myra Hindley and Ian Brady, and especially Kim, he said, is Myra Hindley.

That's scary. But if you think about it, that is scary, that they reduced it to 17 and such years because she would be in her early 30s. Yeah, it should be young as far. Oh, absolutely. And able to do this again.

Yeah, it's not good at all. But again, they could serve life. Yes. But and he also said, quote, she should never ever be let out.

No. And that is the end. That is where we stand there and never let out there in prison, hopefully for life. But at a very minimum of seventeen and a half years, they were sentenced in twenty seventeen.

So hopefully they run out of appeals. I hope so. I hope they don't get out, to be honest.

That's really scary. And that was the whole part about the hand was really so remote and it was so brutal.

And then like just the callousness of them laying down stairs, having sex, watching twilight, eating ice cream and just snuggling, going to sleep at night on those mattresses with them dead up to two nights or two days. It's like, what the fuck is inside of you?

Nothing. It's brutal. And they deserve what they got. That is bleak, is bleak.

Again, I mean, girls reference. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Well, schook, if that's so bleak now, I'm really nervous because I don't know a lot about the Ian Brady and Myra Henley case.

Yeah, I that's that's going to be a doozy. Just letting everybody know that it's a huge boy.

Am I going to is it going to be like toolbox murders usque or toybox murder. Like we're in a different way. In a different way. Yeah.

I don't like that it has to do with children because we haven't done a lot of children. Yeah.

I hate it, but it's a it's a very important case and. Right. That's the thing. And it's one that I know a lot of people have been dying here and I get it because before I had kids I was obsessed with reading about that case. I didn't like loves that they killed children. Yeah, well, it's the psyche. Yeah, it was a little it was a little easier to stomach.

Yeah. Yeah. Have some of my own. But I feel like I consider your kids like my kids. So they're like a portion of my kids. So yeah kid shit just fucks me up no matter what.

Yeah. It's when you can relate a child you love to, you're like oh yeah. OK. Wow. All right.

Yeah. Well that's next week. Stay tuned. And the meantime hit us with a follow on Instagram at Morbid Podcast.

I forgot the next part to it. I know you can always tweet us a morbid podcast, send us an email, morbid podcast at Gmail dot com. We hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it. We're not sure whether you throw a chair across to the classroom and meet your soul partner.

That's probably really not your soul partner. You should have met each other at all. Don't meet that person that doesn't want to carry out these actions because they're not good.

They're not I don't know. That wasn't my best. But I don't kill people. Don't do it by being.