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This is exactly right. Hello and welcome to my favorite murder, the big one. Normal sized one along a long one. But not long and a lot. Not long after everyone else's tastes. Yeah. No, I was going to say well though the the long one. But the single story just for this week writes justice. Just to finish out the circle. Yeah, everyone. You're welcome. I'm giving you something to fight about this week. Enjoy your passions.


We understand you can't go outside anymore. You feel that. So we'll give you a reason. So we'll be deeply upset. Listen, next week, we'll come back with a nice three hour and 45 minute episode. We're both gonna tell each other extensive stories. This story of the year where her seclusion and crucifixion of Christ. I'm going to tell the story of this first seven days of existence in this planet.


Like a father.


It's like a father son episode. Oh, that's sweet. So, yeah, we're gonna. So, yeah, everyone hated the idea that one of us does one story one week and the next.


And it's understandable. I mean, your two stories, that's kind of what we what we do here is what can I tell you what my sister Laura said? Yes.


Laura's got the final say on it. First of all, she doesn't listen. She's not a fan. So she's. So she's coming objectively to this. So no one can say, of course, your sister would ever agree. My sister coming out comes and goes. Really? At a time like this, you change the whole of the whole setup. I was like, no, we just were talking about it. We're tired. It's summertime. We're whatever.


She's like, No, no, no, no. This is the time. People need structure. They need things to be exactly the same. Go to McDonald's. You want it to taste like McDonald's. Don't fuck around with people at a time like this. I was like, shit. OK. Of course, I think only of myself, as we all do. I think only of myself. So we all only sing your song. Yeah. Every other week.


Homework. Sounds great.


When one of us needs a mental health, we can. Hasn't gotten their story finished. And the other person has a nice thick story that they can tell, you know. Then we'll do one a week. We'll be back to normal next week. Yeah. Don't worry. But also, you know, we'll go back to normal next week, this week when we're not back to normal. Let's practice flexibility. Let's practice changing liminal states where things aren't as we want them to be.


And practice our resilience within those moments.


And right now, let's take a deep breath in and let it out.


It's our shit. I was trying to lead people in three deep breaths. George, I couldn't have I ruined it. It was like your worst burp. Like it wasn't even a good one. It was short and forced.


You're lucky you didn't throw up.


You're lucky I didn't hurt you. Even if you're lucky one.


Can we really, before anything, talk about this most recent episode of Perry Mason? I knew. And there's going to be spoilers, truly, if you haven't seen it. We will not hear it from you after the fact. This is going to be a spoiler chunk. Get away if you don't like it. Five, four, three, two, one. All right. This fucking show is so good. Dude, I knew from the tone of your voice that you were about to start talking about Perry Mason because it.


Did you really? Yes. Because it was like this. Yeah. It wasn't a how fucking how hot and like, messy and dreamy.


How do you say his name? Matthew Reese.


Well, she welchman. Yeah. Matthew Reese sounds right. Is it Matthew. Do you know that he has residents in Wine Tour show. I will. Listen, I was just casually reading looking him up on Google. Listen, no big I just Google search. Didn't you come up on my way? I just wicky foetid that guy. Just to see what was going on.


He has a show, this Welshman and wife, as this is telling me right now. He has a show called The Wine Show where he and his actor friend Matthew Goode with an E.


G. Oh do he. He's like it. They think beautiful Burnett man. Yeah. Yeah. He is devoted. OK.


They all went to the Royal Shakespeare Academy together. I bet. I'm sure they get all that, that style.


They just pre pandemic travel like Italy, drinking wine together. I'm talking about wine and wine varietals and slowly getting drunk on wine and laughing about it. And he has this fucking beard. Oh, I guess you like Vince level quarantine beard.


See, that's the thing about that day. And I'll talk about him as Perry Mason. Yeah, because. Because I don't know him any other way. Really.


I know he's I don't want to talk about being in love with the character.


I want to objectify the outer door. That's my goal. I want to objectified the Marleau.


He's drinking. But that that spirit of a man, which is you're fighting your demons overtly. You've got a very nicely weathered leather jacket. You've got sparkle in your eyes. Even when fucked up shit is happening. But your eyes are also lightly dead because you've been around the block a time and seen too much. Everything about it and the way he like when he fights a John Lithgow and he gets that kind of like sparkle. It's just, my God, that is dynamic and thrilling.


You're so hurling this, like, really dark, interesting woman who like, has her own secrets. But you're clearly in love with her a little bit.


Yes. And she's like, get out. Get out of here. Fuck you. It's not romantic, but it's very handed. Yeah. And it's hot as hell.


Love it. I mean, it's OK. So this most despoiler I want to state just because it made me laugh so hard when it actually happened to, you know, part of the show, I'm gonna say it's the part where the little girl walks up to give sister her this. This isn't a like a real big plot spoiler. So don't worry if you know. Yeah. No, if you're if you're powering through this boiler, but it turns the gift turns out to be a humungous snake.


Right. And it's so shocking. And the little girl is so good and it's played so perfectly that you're as shocked as the sister is. I can't remember her character's name, her Tatyana Mazzaglia. I asked Alex, is his name missing from Orphan Black? And she's.


Oh, yeah. Call cool. Yeah. But that moment. So my friend Carrie O'Donnell, the hilarious Carrie O'Donnell from Sex unique podcast. He texted me. When the little girl tries to assassinate her with a serpent. I knew this show with it and I wrote back. Oh, my God. That part was all caps. Who I am.


I guarantee the little girl carrying a perfectly wrapped. What you think is a pastry box, too, because that's a fucking mean thing about it is she is just like these are gonna be some incredible 1930s pastries. So they keep saying the words. Yes. And I was like, oh, I can't wait to watch her bite into whatever the hell this is. I was thinking Danish, like straight hardcore Danish. I was thinking of like a, you know, princess cakes that have the green stuff on it, like the perfect.


No, we don't. It's also called. They have it, Victor. It's like our family, actually, our family like cake. It's what you fucking get. And you fucking like our birthday at El Coyote. You have to have it. You have. Yeah. The. It's the stuff made of almonds. Yeah. What's the call. Yes. Everyone's yelling. Someone tweeted a thing that said you you'll the most you'll ever understand what a ghost feels like is when you're listening to a podcast.


And the host are trying to remember a word or something that you know, that I can't give credit to. I don't. It's just been going around. I think my sister sent me. That means. So true. Because right now everyone at home is yelling, oh, man.


Mausam Steve in the even that goes, see it? And they go, boo boo boo. So that's what I was picturing, a little tiny princess cake or something that was kind of old fashioned looking. And she opens it up and it's the biggest snake. It's a big, scary snake. Then it's like this can't. Can't do snakes. And he lost his fucking mind. It was so good and tricky. And to me, that's like it's that's how this show is so smart.


It's doing incredibly creepy things realistically. So you don't go you never walk away going on. It was all. I mean, there's things that are super graphic, but it's for that.


It's for the passage. It's got such a good, creepy feeling of like everything's wrong in the world.


Yeah. And and you had a look, I need you to fuck because it's nineteen thirty something. There's also that brilliant scene with the black cop who actually saw the body. Yes. And when those other detectives come to talk to him, how incredibly, oppressively but unspoken racist they are.


And like how they're controlling him with barely lifting a finger.


Well they're like speaking to him in a like part, like a respectful, positive way that intones this creepy fucked up nigga. It's like you don't even have to say anything negative. It's just it's just in there.


Fuckin it's in the vibe. It's the bias. It's so it's so accurate to how that stuff actually works. It's so good. Anyway, bravo. Good job, everybody. I bet the people who pitched we're gonna do a gritty reboot of Perry Mason. I bet you had a lot of doors slammed on their faces. So the idea that now they're the the maybe queen and king who knows of HBO, I love it.


I'm just telling you, Sunday nights, Perry Mason and I'll be gone in the dark. It's like, oh, it's like I'm excited in quarantine. How do you fucking even do that? It's crucial, it's crucial. And the same thing with tonight, cause tonight is Tuesday. It's the final episode of this season, two of Dirty Jon Oh Nights Watch.


It's the big finale again. I love it. The New Dirty Dawn starring. I mean, the. Amanda Peet plays Betty Broderick. It's a classic story of a woman who supports her husband through medical and law school. Come, he starts his own firm. Oh, everything gets super successful.


Starts cheating on her, won't admit it for a really long time, and basically drives her insane. There's so many other elements. I mean, I guess part. Like the gaslighting.


Yeah. And the like, not not being allowed to know your own life and to have any what's the word.


Oh. Ownership. No agency or your own decisions in life because someone is lying to you. Someone close to you lying. You like that is. Oh you know it's an exploitation of your connection.


Yeah. Where they're saying, oh why would you.


You know, he basically denied it for so long to her where he's like, you're really losing it, you're dead and you're going to ruin this relationship. Yeah. He would take it and like fold it back into what? Everything that was wrong with her. So by the time he admitted it. By the time they broke up, she had snapped. And it is again, it's just it's so it was such a common thing in the 80s because this takes place like throughout the 80s.


And it's so familiar to me because there was this time in like the early 80s where everyone's Cancún.


Why all at once we're not saying murders, OK? And obviously it's not. And especially, though, the new girlfriend, how you know, it's not that it's not her relationship that was ruined. It's not she hasn't been that she is not responsible for this dude. His decisions. No, no. But I will say this to the children. The child actors in this show are exceptionally good actor high school. There's one child that's had to do two monologues.


Every time I watch it, I go, holy fucking shit. How is this little kid? He's he's like literally going. But Mom, he's trying to to reason with this woman who's basically been driven insane or like gone insane and obsessively won't leave it alone. And he's trying to as like a nine year old. And this kid is such a good act. I was just like, well, that's your that's our next Leo DiCaprio, right?


Yes. Good. I'm going to watch once we're done with what are we watching right now? We're okay. We're almost done with the veep, like, all the way through. Oh, wow. I don't know. What do we do after we watched Rambo two on Sunday or Sunday matinees?


Sorry. What in that one does he go back to the same town prisoner to get the p0 ws out. Oh that's the one that takes place where he like comes up out of the river and it's the idea. Yes. At one point electrocuted on like a mattress frame. I might have been doing my laundry at that part cause I walked Vince watched Rambo too and I snuck in and out of it. Little America is fucking excellent. And like a British sketch show.


No it's on Apple Plus. And it's these little episode episodic shows that you don't have to watch men order anything of like immigrants to America. And they're little. It's true stories of what they went through and how they came to America and thrived and lived and, you know, created their own lives there. It's it's a beautiful show. It's so little American apple. Yeah, definitely. I mean, this is like Emmi shit that for jobby or is that Oscar?


Yes, it is great. Yeah, it's great. I highly recommend it. They're gonna get a Webby for sure. And I get a British podcasting award. Absolutely. And then books, podcasts or what are you what else are you doing.


Well. Oh I. OK, here's a weird run. Someone I believe his name is Drew McGarry and he's on Twitter and he told a story. He was like, are you bored. I'm bored. I'm going to tell you the story of the weirdest thing that's happened to me. And he did it, a tweet thread. It's a very strange story of him out hiking by himself one day and he's talking on the phone. He's walking and he calls his mom and then there's a woman.


Suddenly he gets bumped into from behind. He goes on an empty trail where no one is around. And he didn't hear her coming. And all the sudden a woman bumps into him from behind and he turns around. It's a small woman who is blonde. I'm doing all this from memory. And essentially then all the sudden he wakes up on the trail and it's four hours later and he doesn't have any socks on. OK, wait. Under his boot, this is a true story of a story to a guy named.


What's his name? I believe his name is Drew McGarry. And it's like basically him saying this is the weirdest thing that's ever happened. Okay. So she hits him with a dart, a sleeping dart or something. Well, it bumps into him just like we don't know. And then after that, he doesn't know. And like, he was able to do the time, like he he ended up getting home, checking his body. There's nothing wrong with me.


I don't have any wounds or anything like that with his socks. His socks are gone.


I'm going to go. It happened. Listen, I'm a doctor, okay? I'm a trained doctor. And so I'm going to go with dehydration. Hey. OK. And all around hallucinated her. He hallucinated her. He was so dehydrated that morning, didn't put socks on at all. OK. And so maybe the woman existed and did bump him and then maybe he sat down to, like, take a rest. But he was dehydrated, passed out.


OK. Right. Or alien. Or she's a small Bigfoot.


Shaved down. Coming. Coming up to CBS this Friday. This big foot in the for as well. But here's so I ended up reading the thread because I was like, yes, story's amazing. And it's what it's just my cup of tea. And then I knew other people would tell either tell their stories or do some kind of link. And somebody named Jose Gomez said, if you if you're into this, I just found this podcast. And it's about stories that of like stories that are hard to explain.


Basically as happy as how homey Jose Gomez explained. Huh? Well, it turns out its front of the podcast Pain Lindsays Hardcastle Radio Rental. It's hosted by Rainn Wilson playing a character. I think his name's Vincent Koenig. It made me laugh so hard. This character that he plays is insane and goofy, and it's as if it's set in a VCR, a VHS video rental store.


Great. I love this spot to begin with. There's some someone a little kid just barfed earlier in the day and they put cat litter on it so that you got that going on in one corner. Yep.


And then, of course, Mrs. Doubtfire is playing on the TV over the cash register video store, remember? But it basically is like he sets it up in it, very goofy, funny. And then they play the video and it's the person telling they're hard to explain story firsthand themselves, which is my favorite. And it's real.


Real and they're real. And there's so there's 11 episodes. I think there's two stories per episode. I listen to it all in like three hours. It was so good. And these stories, some of them are some of them are like, oh, and some of them are like, holy shit. There's one girl that tells so beautifully tells. And it's later on, I think it's episode eight or nine. She talks about going to camp with a guy that everyone loved this guy.


Everyone loved this guy. And near the end of camp, they were all going to go out to everyone is gonna go out. I'm just gonna spoiler alert. I know they're they're all gonna go have a show of pain. Lindsays. Yes, I did. But I don't know if you guys. I know this is. Yeah. We are just gonna talk to you. Oh, pretty much all the podcast beanland any and all pain. Lindsay Bug.


He's done a lot of work. This is gonna be this summer season. So. So essentially they had to sign because they're old counselors. So they had to sign out for the day and say where they were going to go. It's like, here's my name and I'm going this place and whatever. So everyone knew wherever I was going and when they'd come by. Yeah. And this guy was like, hey, let me give you a ride to her.


And she said in her gut she felt it. There was something weird in his eyes. The energy was wrong. She knew he was trying to walk around, getting a ride from someone else. And it was almost like that was the last choice. And she'd like try it because she was going to get her friends, whatever. So she was like, you know what? I'm actually going to hang back. And he's like, no, it's totally fine.


I'll give you a ride. I'll go whatever you want to go where. And he was really trying to convince her and fight. And then finally he got really mad.


And so she stepped back and started making a but she was like, I don't want to go with you and like, made a scene. So other people came over and like, guys basically got him away from her and she went back up and was like, I'm staying here for the day. And then everyone left. She went back up and checked the logbook. Her name had been erased from a log book entirely. And she was like, there's no doubt in my mind that he wanted to kill me.


He was going to do something to me.


And that and she basically gives its beautiful little speech. That's essentially the, you know, what we've all been saying to each other for so long. But essentially, you don't owe anybody anything. If somebody wants to give you a ride because they're being nice, you don't have to be nice back to them. Making a scene is okay.


Like you be a fucking. Everyone thinks you're crazy and you make a scene because you don't feel comfortable situation.


It doesn't matter what they think about you. Yeah. You can be out. Not only not when you. Yeah. When you're a thug. And apparently she grabbed her friend and said no matter what happens, do not get in the car with him because he had a car that could only be him and one other person. So she was then convinced he was gonna try to get a different girl into the OK when she was last called. We're all gonna listen to it's called radio rental.


And that's just one of the many unbelievably creepy, amazing, horrifying stories.


Good. I'm listening to that. I've been wanting to text you, but I keep forgetting and I want to tell you on the podcast, too. There's this new podcast that I'm listening to called Missing in Alaska. Have you seen it or heard of it? It reminds me so much. Of the Oregon one, what was the Oregon one, we loved murder in Oregon. You know what? It might be the same people. Oh, just put together.


That would make sense. Yeah. Because you know why? It's. It's about an in the 1970s, these two congressmen were on a plane out of Alaska or like town to town in Alaska, these two. And they and the plane disappeared. No one ever fucking found it. And the whole podcast is about the conspiracies that like. Does it go all the way to the top? Because one of the widows of one of those congressmen ended up marrying this dude who is like in the mob, and everyone knew he was in the mob and like all these crazy mob ties and like maybe there was a briefcase with a bomb in it.


And it's just like it goes all the way down in Alaska in the 70s, which is the creepiest possible place to be. Yes. OK, wait. Really good to have you listen to the entire series. I got holes. OK. So I'm awesome. I'm going to start that immediately. That's great. I need a good morning. Like I'm all all my morning walk around podcast is kind of like this is like a mall. This is like your.


This is like made for you. OK, beautiful. Missing in Alaska. Listen to it with me, everybody. This will be the new book club. There's also I always talk about the podcast Family Secrets, because I just love it so much. It just speaks to me. And there's an episode I listened to yesterday. Oh, I'm crying now. By the way, it's kind of a new thing. I'm real dehydrated. I can't buy my socks.


It's a mess.


It comes up real randomly, huh? Like sometimes you do not see it coming. Yeah. We get those ones. No, I always can tell. I'm like, I think when I go, this is a time when my normal people would cry and I'm like, oh fuck you normal.


So there's an episode back from April called Bug Dust off of the podcast Family Secrets that made me cry. That is so beautiful. And so I knew it. I don't know it. Like hits a spot in me for sure. Love it. Love that. Go to our merch page and my favorite murdered and wait. What we have. Have we talked about unsolved mysteries or. You know we have. OK, let's clear the decks. Because lots of people have been like, we need you here.


And I am blown away at how amazing. So we do. We've done ads for this. We do ads for this. Yeah. This isn't hot enough. It's not an ad, but it's so beautifully. I mean, like, look, the original was great. And and it was totally reflective of the time. And like a guy in a trench coat coming out of the fog being like mysteries. Right. And they were like ghost Brett. There was like ghost loaves of bread and like alien.


Yeah, like a lot of that. And I was a little worried that this would be almost like just another true crime show.


You know, like I think the key to this one, too, is it's the people telling their own story. You get the people, you get the family. You get the wife of the missing man. You get the reporter that was there first. Like, that is the way to do it. It's those that's the most compelling way to do it. Don't need a talking head. It's a really well, it's a well done true crime show.


It's good. Yeah. The fuckin French story. That's so much like the John List story. I haven't I only have watched the first episode and then I honestly couldn't watch another one. It's I was going to be like moving on. But I was like, what in the fuck happened there? It's so creepy. It's crazy. People on Reddit are talking about how similar that it is to the plot of the game, the movie, the game.


Yeah. Right. So everyone go to the game from the nineties, I think.


Well, is that just because he falls through a roof? No, he he because the guy Ray, the guy was a screenwriter. Oh, right. And and really into movies. The whole movie was that he felt like he was being chased in this simulated world that ends with him falling off a roof. Oh. And when he gets a call and runs out of the house. I don't know. I don't know.


Yeah. No, I see that. I see it. But I guess my thing is what the fact that he's a writer makes all of those things really difficult because truly, if you. Oh, no. This is all that crazy shit. Well, I mean, really. Yeah. This stuff you write down and this stuff like I don't explain to myself what my documents say. You never write like the following list is for the upcoming Easter Bunny movie.


I right. You just start going. Eggs, eggs, eggs. And everyone's like, she's totally lost. Like anything out of context that's creative like that could make you seem. Yeah. You don't expect anyone else to ever read it. But then if they find it after your fucking sudden and mysterious death. Right. Then you're gonna be and it's taped up under the net. That story is just like it's all of those stories are so much to handle and like absorb and they're and it's so great.


They're doing. They're so good. I want more and more. I just wish they were. I think there's more coming out. There's only six, which sucks, but it's so good. Yeah. I love it. So good. Yeah. OK, good. We had to put that on the on the table. Doesn't spend so long.


All right. Good. We have it. Let's finish. The puzzle. I don't think a lot of people have been tagging us in their finished puzzle because it's so hard.


It's just you finish that puzzle. God damn. You do it. The quarantine depends on you. And then. Oh, exactly right. News a couple of quick. Exactly right. Podcast network we have this week out is everyone's favorite. I said no gifts podcast and get the guest is comedian Yasir Lester, the most hilarious young murder squad this week.


They're billion polar actually covering that mysterious death of Tamla Horsford, which is a story that a bunch of people have been talking about recently. It's it's they're looking into this. Basically, she was the only black guest at a sleepover party in Georgia in November of 2018, and she was found dead the next morning. And people have been asking to have her case reopened. So billion. Paul, look into it. That's that's very. I've seen a lot of people talking about me recently.


That's really interesting.


I can't wait to hear what they what they talk about, ME2, anything. And then, of course, some diner this week, me and Chris talk about the Dave Matthews Band. I don't know what more topical, timely, relevant material you need from a podcast now.


I mean, it's like don't cross promote.


You guys are dropping the dime. I don't know. You're on top of the news. Sure.


Oh, my God. It's like. It's weird. We are. As if the Los Angeles Times was in a car, had once been in a car and picked people up from the airport.


Another thing that always reminds me whenever he hears Dave Matthews Band referenced is that. Remember that one time they were driving over a bridge in Chicago and may open the. They were like in their RV or they like touring and they opened that. It's like to like, let all the waste out now as you're doing us over the river.


But there was a tour boat boat underneath at that exact moment and they dumped all their touring, you know, excrement on onto that boat, destroying the lives of at least thirty five tourists.


I mean, you would even I mean, where do you go? What how do you stop screaming? How do you how do you live your life? Like when you have your first child, do you look at it and go like this is so much better than that one time that excrement got dumped upon us. Like every moment has every worst moment of your life. Someone dies. I mean, like but is it is this is this is worse than the time the Dave Matthews Band, but not by much, actually.


Now that I think about it, because at least they lived a full life and I was nearly twenty three when I was on my tour. I mean it is so fucked and it is so like. I mean it's like that. It's, I think it's that kind of thing. I look. Let's bring this to the forefront. You can't just dump shit anywhere literally. You can't you dump shit literally kamei where you can't. And like that's a good metaphor for life, too.


Like, we'll look where you're going before you open your floodgates of excrement from of your rock and roll your back out band. Yeah. You're gonna want to be careful when you are heading out of town. Yeah.


Like in love. In life.


Please watch where you dump your excrement, please. Your extra excrement smells extra bad to other people. Treat your friends and family like you would a boat full of tourists. Blow a Dave Matthews and like cover them with your love and a.


Harp of love actually be the better bus driver. That's like I'm in a wait until we get out by the. The fields and grassland are nowhere near Chicago.


People are everywhere. Downtown Chicago. I didn't know they must have just pulled out of their hotel.


Oh, they could jets.


They had just rocked out the night. Best show. Everyone's high. Fighting each other. All three bass players are like, we did it. Dave Matthews. Like, Great. Boop boop boop. During his hearable scatting.


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Goodbye. Hey. Am I first this week or you first. I'm first. First and only and middle. All right. Well, OK, so here's my story. My soul story. So I love Russia here. I know, right? Yeah. But I'm here for you to ask questions. Given the old saying no.


If you don't want me to ask the to ask the question, I just don't know all the answers. OK, I do have a question because I didn't know this until very recently. Did you know that Michael Jordan's father was killed? Yes. Well, I'm going to cover that murder, OK? Oh, my God. Amazing, right? What we're just gonna say. I was gonna say, if you ask me a question, you frame it.


Did you know? You know, I always have to say I'm sorry.


Sure. Damaged. Terribly damaged. Terribly. It's going to be like pulling teeth for me to be like I didn't. No. OK.


There's no like there's no world where it's OK for you not to know a thing or lie. No, no, no, no, no, no. Make fun of you and come after you.


I mean, after the fact when I've already been wrong. And it's being discussed. That's fine because I won't be sure. In the face to face. You and me. You might. What you should say is I know an interesting thing. I find that an interesting thing I did. Know. And that's OK. Because it's okay not to know everything. Yeah. In fourth grade, I got made fun of for not knowing what the word whore meant.


And looking back, I'm like, that's probably good that I didn't know.


Yeah, well, you fucking cunt.


But I mean, at the same time, it was so humiliating. Well, what is. I mean, when you're in fourth grade. That's like kind of thing. Every day when you were in like grammar school and especially into junior high. Yeah. You get up and go to school. The rules have changed overnight. You don't know what you're supposed to know. You all you know, as you're already behind Odali. You don't have the right you don't own the right thing.


Now, this fucking Hypercolor, sure.


It was Boller a week ago.


And now, now, now you can just see where I'm sweating because I hit puberty. Now it's just tragic. Wait, does it mean for me? I was telling my sister a story about things that happened today. And at one point my sister goes, oh, my God, Jesus Christ. What are they, a seventh grade girl? And then my niece goes, Hey, that's offensive to me.


Seventh grade girl here representing. I would never act like that. They're more woak than we are. They know. OK. So, yeah. You mentioning this just to get back on your. Let's talk about this, Sariego. I cannot wait to watch the ESPN 30 for 30, not 30 by 30, which will feel better about your.


I'd say that's as a home improvement show. Yes. 30 by 30. I thought it was all about beams post and beam.


So, yeah, that's there's and there's also The Last Dance, which is the documentary on ESPN. And it's 10 episodes. It's all about Michael Jordan's life. OK? Which events watched and love? Then I kind of checked in and out, as I do and did with Rambo. But then, honestly, I didn't know about James Jordan, his father being murdered and tell. I watched this. And then, of course, Vince knew everything about it.


And I was like, why? I mean, he told me and rightly so, that I looked at it.


And it's like a fucking whole conspiracy mystery thing. Oh, shit. Please tell me all about it, because when everyone was talking about the last dance, I assumed it was 34, 30. But it's the last dance, whatever. But I was like, I'm going to watch it up because I every sports documentaries, even though I'm not the biggest sports fan either. They when they know how to tell a story. And they they tell they basically save it for the good ones.


The good ones are unbelievable.


And this is that. And it takes you back to that early 90s time and place, you know, space, jammy, fuckin cool shit. And I think because I didn't care about sports so much, I tuned it out immediately. I didn't know about this whole story about Michael Jordan's dad. So I looked into it for this podcast that we.


Great little pug.


This one. Yes, one. This one now mostly. So I got information from the Web site. All that's interesting. There's an article by Marco Marguerite off. There's a Washington Post article by Kyle Swensson. There's a great article on Deadspin. That's just an old GQ article from 1994 by Scott Raab.


There's an Inside Edition article by Sal Bono, a Chicago Tribune article by Dan Wider. And then there's also a NBA like YouTube channel hosted by this guy named Mike Cause Zamba, who does like conspiracy theories and stories like little 10 minute stories about the NBA. It's really cool. Wow. And he had he had a whole episode about this.


So. All right, let's get into it. OK. So James Jordan is born in the tiny town of Wallace, North Carolina, in 1936 at the age of 18. He joins the Air Force. And in 1956, he marries his high school sweetheart, Delores. They have three children. They moved to Brooklyn in 1963 so James can receive training as a mechanic on the G.I. Bill. He said he studies airplane hydraulics and Dolores finds work at a bank.


And while they're there on February 17th, 1963, they have their fourth child, Michael Jordan.


Well, you heard of him pretty soon may now. Yeah. Wait, can I just say really quick. Yeah. The mind bogglingly humongous donation that Michael Jordan made, like in week two of the protests to Black Lives Matter. How much was a Stephen, look it up? I think I think it was like one hundred million dollars. Amazing.


He's really big on charity. And that that's kind of his his mother's work. His. His dad was like. So James Brown, his dad was super supportive and behind him the whole way, advising him on sports. And his mom was like, OK, but you can't become a big headed asshole, you all. And she would organize all his shit because he was really big in a charity and, you know, children's charities and his mom, Dolores.


It's pretty. It's a pretty. He had really supportive, wonderful parents. Karen, you were correct.


It was 100 million. Wow. Thank you. Isn't that crazy? Amazing. Humongous. Yeah. So the family eventually moves back to North Carolina so the kids can be raised in a safer environment. And then Michael decides in high school that he wants to play basketball, which James supports him, even though James prefers the game of baseball, which he actually had played some professionally himself. But he was like basketball.


Let's do this in the early 90s. Michael Jordan is an enormous basketball star, star and store kind of.


And there was a couple stores. Yeah. And he becomes a household name. He wins championship after championship three NBA championships, three NBA MVP wins and two Olympic gold medals. And he is a fucking global icon.


Whether or not you're into sports, I remember this so well. I mean, he was just I really he was a huge. He was a star.


So Michael describes his father, who he calls Pops', which is my favorite nickname for a dad or grandfather character.


It's my dad pops my brother in law and my so my nephew, they call their grandparents Honey and Pops and I just. And her name's not honey. She just goes by Honey and pops. And they're the sweetest fucking people on the planet. That's so cute. So he calls him he calls his dad Pops. He's his best friend. He's his number one cheerleader. He like from high school to Michael's and see a career at the University of North Carolina to his professional career with the Chicago Bulls starting in 1984.


James Jordan is there every step of the way, flying from city to city with his son to support his career. So a really important figure in Michael Jordan's life. Access to July 22nd, 1993. So James Jordan is in Wilmington, North Carolina. He is attending the funeral of an ex colleague and after the funeral, he visits with friends late into the night. I think it's kind of like when you do after a funeral, everyone's kibitzing and such.


Yeah. And then so he hits the road sometime after midnight for the three and a half hour drive back to Charlotte, which is a long drive after midnight. You know, he's expected to catch a plane to Chicago the next day to meet up with Michael. And an hour into the drive, he gets tired. So he pulls over to take a nap in his it's his prized. He's in his prized cherry red nineteen ninety two, Lexus SC 400.


I know about as much about cars as I know about sports, so I don't know what that means. So he pulls off the road to take a nap. He's just south of Lumberton, North Carolina, which is a city in Robeson County, about 30 minutes outside of Fayetteville.


So we're talking a lot of little rural rural areas, right? Yeah. Like long stretches of road, that sort of thing. It's it's disputed whether or not he just pulled off the road or if he was in the parking lot of equality in that. Either way, it wasn't a really great place to stop.


They were like both known like drug dealing areas. OK.


You know, I mean, I do know anything about drug dealing and area care. And I would say it used to be a drug dealing area. Listen, I spent some time out in front of equality. I'm not in that area, but of my own personal quality on this side. Mm hmm.


So 11 days later, cut to a local fisherman hunting for catfish spots. A man face down in gum's swamp, which is a creek near South Carolina's northern border. The body is tangled on a branch and is fully dressed but missing its shoes. Authorities from the nearby town of McCall, which is another tiny town, can't find any identification on the badly decomposed body. So they classify him as a John Doe. And an autopsy determined that the cause of death is a single shot gunshot to the right side of the victim's chest with a 38 caliber bullet.


And because it's such a small rural community, there's a lack of storage at the morgue. So when the body isn't claimed or identified for a while, it's cremated.


But thankfully, the coroner, who, by the way, looks he's a part time coroner and how small the town is and who also owns a construction company in town. So, like, that's what we're if I can. That's the kind of size we're talking about here. Volunteer corner, pretty much size town.


He notices that the John Doe has expensive dental work. And so he's like, let's just save this. So he removes the jaw from before they cremate. Thank God the remains as well as the hands, just in case they're able to identify them in the future. Crazy, right? Yes. So meanwhile, when James Jordan doesn't arrive as expected in Chicago the following day, his friends and family actually aren't worried because he's known for changing plans without notice.


And but when he doesn't check in with his secretary after a long period, she calls Michael Jordan as well as Michael Jordan's mom, to let him know she hasn't heard from him. It's 21 days before family members officially report Jordan missing, which is a long time. And I think it adds a little bit of like a suspicion to what happened. But it seems like it was kind of like everyone was doing their own thing and it seemed like it was a normal thing in the family.


So on the 22nd day that he'd been missing, his body is identified with the dental records from the jawbones the coroner kept as James Jordan. Wow. Yeah. And police also find his prized Lexus had been abandoned and stripped in the woods near Fayetteville, which is about 60 miles from where his body had been found. So when news of his death breaks, though, the media goes fucking apeshit. Do you remember any of this?


Yes. I don't. And there's and there's all kinds of speculation based on the fact that. So there's another thing I wasn't really like keen on is that Michael Jordan was super into gambling. I had no idea.


So Michael Jordan would gamble on anything from like ping pong games to golf games to like, is my bag going to come out first while we're at the airport waiting for it like he was super in to, like, gambling and steaks. And, you know, I bet you they say about you. That is right. Yeah.


Sorry, I just got really sad because it makes me think of all this stuff that we would be waiting for. Oh, Karen.


Oh, the storms on the road. Why are we even betting ten bucks on them this whole time?


Seriously, with Georgia and I had a running, like, argument about like, well, our bags come out first because we paid for first class this time and sometimes they would and sometimes they wouldn't. I would say it was. 50 50. But every time we get up, there is like we're both like. What's it gonna be this time? That whole time we could have been having fun and bedding and now we don't get to do it. It ruined all of it.


We are going to have an in 20 years on our on our first when this is over on our first tour back. You mean. We're gonna have the most fun.


It's gonna be fucking ridiculous. We're gonna.


I think that's when we go on our Dave Matthews bus tour and just dump shit across this nation, whether it be on stages in a show, verbally, literally, whatever it takes. OK. Sorry. No, go on there. So he would he would bet on anything. Yes. I'd bet on anything. But he also was into like Atlantic City and Vegas and shit like high roller style.


You have to think about the too. Michael Jordan is, you know, the biggest basketball star, consistent wins, huge paychecks or whatever his his. What is that? The you know, his excitement. He was always trying to peak that excitement problem with with people that get into that position where then then you win the great big golden championship. I don't know what if you win the championship golden championship, the golden championship and you're the golden boy of the Golden Championship and eat like, of course, then you're suddenly you're just like ten thousand dollars that my bag comes out, not really need the hit.


You need the adrenaline.


You probably go from like I don't know what their financial situation was, but like let's say they have a normal, you know, middle class situation and suddenly you have this. They're throwing Nike is throwing you millions of dollars to make your own shoes. Yeah. And you don't ever have time off because you're practicing all the time. So, yeah, of course. Like with your fucking best friend, Scottie Pippen. I don't know if that's the thing you're fucking betting all the time because there's nothing else to do.


Probably it becomes this compulsion, I would imagine.


And it's a and it's about winning and it's about power. But it is like it's also about you get to a point where you're in those people get to that point of success where they don't even see the rest of the of the casino because they're always behind the velvet car, exactly where the food's spread and where there's gambling and of goods. Right. No one else has ever seen before. That's right. Yeah. All right. Sounds great, actually.


Yeah, we'll get there. We'll get there.


Except a hello Buffalo. Except it becomes a problem, though.


And in fact, the summer that James Jordan is killed, the NBA had just announced a huge investigation into Michael Jordan's gambling problem. Oh, yeah. The investigation center on the fact that Michael had given a large amount of money to a known drug mule, then like gambling Croney, who had worked for what was a dude who was known as a drug kingpin.


And he and it was for gambling debt. And there's proof that he was in business with all kinds of shady characters who he owed lots of money in gambling losses, too. So that's not the not fun part, is that you actually rack up losses. Yeah, because you do, you know. Yeah. When it's out of your control, it's just the luck of the draw. Yeah. Then you lose luck of the draw.


But fuckin the chips are stacked against you. Yeah. Look at me. And terminology and shit. So it's theor. So the media goes crazy.


It's theorized that the killing isn't a random act of violence because it is a fucking crazy coincidence. Right. And instead, the media implies that the murder happened because of Michael's gambling debts and maybe they killed his father to send him a message.


And actually, to this day, it's still a huge conspiracy theory. And there are people who will see who totally stand by this theory. Like, maybe the mob did it. Maybe the NBA was, like, sick of his shit and they were making him look bad. They're making them look bad. Or they were gonna they thought they were gonna come after them and their families. So that's like a theory. I don't believe it. But no, it's not.


It's not true. So I'm just gonna it.


At the time of his father's murder. Jordan issued a statement saying he was outraged and that, quote, I'm trying to deal with the more overwhelming feelings of loss and grief in a way that would make my dad proud. I simply cannot comprehend how others could intentionally pour salt in my open wound by insinuating that faults and mistakes in my life are in some way connected to my father's death, which is like you're not just. Yeah, you're not just dealing with your father's unexpected, brutal murder.


Right. It's also people saying it's your fucking fault. Yeah. So Michael and his family have James's ashes interred at a small cemetery near a church in T.G. North Carolina during a private ceremony and 52 days later. Michael, now 30, with his without his biggest supporter, shocks everyone by announcing his retirement from the NBA. Whoo! And he says, quote, The most positive thing I can take from my father not being here with me today is that he saw my last basketball game.


And that means a lot. So he retired because. He didn't want to play another game. And so, you know, obviously he said that I'm just ready. Yeah, yeah. He's heartbroken.


And there's a crazy, heart wrenching video that I think is in the last dance of after he wins a big game on the first Father's Day without his dad. He goes back to the locker room and just lays down on the floor and he's sobbing. And there all these cameras around him and they like kind of no one knows what to do. It's really sad.


But no one no one knows what to do. But they certainly don't stop rolling those cameras out of decency.


That's exactly right. So meanwhile, the investigation has to go on. Right. So investigators led by Robeson County Sheriff Hubert Stone. They're able to trace. So they get the car there. Trace, 36 calls made from the Lexus is car phone to friends and family of two local teens. So Daniel Green and Larry Dimery, so that they're 18 years old. They had become friends when they met in third grade. They're really close. They had both been outcasts.


And Daniel is black. Larry is a Native American from the local Lumbee tribe. They're both just kind of outcasts in their families and they find each other in third grade and become inseparable, almost like they see each other like brothers. Mm hmm. Now, 18 year olds both have criminal records. So it seems like an open and shut case, these two kids. Police charged him with murder in the first degree conspiracy to commit armed robbery and armed robbery.


Sorry, because they made calls from that stolen Lexus.


And that's the connection because they're known criminals in town, in this small town, because all the 36 calls that are traced through those, they are all to friends and family of those two boys.


Yes, but stealing a car is not the same thing as killing a person.


If you're questioning the investigation into the stolen car sounding weird, you're exactly right. Thank you.


Huh. Thank you. So, Damiri.


Quickly turns on his friend Daniel Green. When police tell him that Greene had already ratted about, you know, that lie of what he told us, what happened is that it was your fault. What are you gonna do? Yeah. Damrey agrees to a plea deal and a lighter sentence when the D.A. points out the evidence they have against him for the murder. And as well as three other armed robberies, he'd been a part of that same summer, one of which he had smashed an elderly woman over the head with a brick.


Oh, no. So it's not looking good. No.


Damiri pleads guilty to charges related to the murder and agrees to testify against his lifelong friend Green Damrey story is that he and Green originally planned to rob a tourist at the quality end. But then they saw this. You know, this red Lexus parked along the shoulder of the road nearby with the driver asleep. And they were like, easy target. They said they plan to tie him up and leave him alongside the road and just take the car. But Zemurray claims that Greene that his friend Green shot the driver in the chest when he started waking up saying it's all his fault, you know.


And then they took a look at the victim's driver's license, realized who he is, and then decide they have to get rid of him. So they dumped the body over a bridge near the swamp and abandoned the car in the forest 40 miles away. And that's his story. And since Daniel Green doesn't give a statement at all, that's and he doesn't testify. That's kind of the official version of what happens. And that goes on the record.


So the case against Greene mounts. OK. So a rap video like a homemade rap video comes out that was filmed days after Jordan's death. In it, Green is wearing the NBA championship watch and nineteen eighty six all star ring that Jordan was given by his son, which had both been taken from the Lexus. So, like, they're clearly involved. They were both there. I feel like there's no way to dispute that. Yeah. And also, you can't if you're wearing the jewelry of the person, then my whole theory of, hey, you can steal a car, but not kill the person like those could have been two separate things, but.


Right. Right. It doesn't look good at all. It doesn't. It's. Yeah. So when Green's murder trial starts in January of 1996, the state's case rests mostly on Demaris testimony against his friend.


But it's supported by supposed blood evidence. The prosecution maintains that Jordan was shot through the heart at close range while sitting in the driver's seat of his Lexus. But the coroner's report shows there's no exit wound. Like it didn't come out. It didn't just go in and stay, which I think is what happens when a gunshot is shot close up.


But it's so it suggests that the gunshot was actually shot from farther away. So that makes sense because there was an exit wound, because there wasn't an exit wound, because there wasn't an exit. Okay. And there's also no blood or gunshot residue found inside the car. But the state presents expert testimony from a woman named Jennifer Elwell. She's a special agent at the State Bureau of Investigation. To support that Demaris story against his friend, and she testifies that two chemical tests suggested, quote, a pretty good indication of blood in the car.


So it's like we don't know, is there isn't there blood in the car? How close up or far away was he shot?


It's weird, huh? Oh, very weird, too. You would think that there would be more than a pretty good indication of blood at a gunshot scene.


There should be if you're bringing it up as a large part of the evidence against someone you know. Yeah. Yeah. But it's 1996. You know, shit's fucked up. Green is convicted and sentenced to life. And Damiri is only given 40 years because of his cooperation. And the case is officially closed. But now a days. Twenty five years later, Green is trying to get a new trial in the North Carolina justice system. And key elements of the case are coming to light.


So first is the mystery of the shirt that James Jordan was wearing when he was shot. The autopsy concludes that Jordan is shot once on the right side of the chest. But the pathologist notes that there are no holes in the shirt that he's wearing when there's no sign of gunshot residue either.


OK, ready for this? After the autopsy, the police gave the shirt to a company that performs funeral services and then they buried the shirt because they claimed it had an overpowering stench, which like, I don't care who is responsible for what.


That's the fucking weirdest explanation I've ever heard of something like this. I mean, I guess because the body was decomposed. Yeah. And in a swamp or whatever. But still, like, shouldn't you steal the shirt for evidence.


Evidence. Yes. Yeah. Right. So they bury it, which I think is weird too. Yep. And the Surete is later dug up at that facility and it has a hole in the chest where it didn't before. OK. Yeah. So Green's attorney theorized that the state was at least careless with the evidence or maybe even tampered with. Shorten added a hole that wasn't there to begin with. And then there maybe there's a reason and then this is where it might.


Does it go all the way to the top question mark? So remember all those phone calls made from Alexis? There were 36 total. Well, the police figured out that the first call went to a sex hotline because the kids were fuckin 18 years old.


Of course, it's. Yeah. Idiot. OK. Yeah.


The second call is made to a nine one nine area code in Hambrick, North Carolina, seven hours after the murder. And it's registered to a man named Cuber Larry D.. And the call, less than a minute. But this dude, Larry D. is a co-worker of Damiri. He's he is also a high level drug trafficker who ends up being arrested in February of 1994, less than a year after the murder, and is linked to a Colombian cocaine pipeline that had connections in New York and North Carolina.


So it's a second phone call they made off of this stolen cars. Carphone. OK.


So this guy D. Most importantly, though, is the biological son of none other than Hubert Stone, who I mentioned before, who happens to be the Robeson County sheriff. Well, yeah, that makes sense. They called the sheriff's son. Yeah. Yep. Who is a drug drug trafficker and drug dealer.


And in a lot in the same ways where the like the preacher's son would be kind of a rebel.


And Ray, you know, like like he might be the only man who could ever teach you really ever reach me. The son of a preacher man. That's right. OK, so, OK, our first call is to their drug dealer friend. He's dead now. Sheriff calls to a sex hotline. Sorry to get on that, idiots, because they're so what, together in a car? They're making a phone call. So that sounds like, hey, what are you that they're going to have dual phone sex with the one bright.


I mean, it's like like it to the phone, right? So, yeah. When I was in junior high and I got in trouble for something, probably I think it's drugs.


They put me in a room to be like, wait, you're going to call your mother, wait here. And like I did. And there was a phone there and I was like, I'm in it, make 900 calls. And like, I'm the only number I knew from like the back of a Rolling Stone was the Grateful Dead hotline.


So I called.


What they say there's some recording of like Dead like Grateful Dead music.


All I'm saying is that's such a fuckin what's the word when you're really on immature thing to do.


Yes. It's just like, yeah, your brain is like, what do we call it?


Who do we call? Plus, it really never used a fucking car. Like we didn't have car phones. I was like rich people fucking thing. Ninety four, nine hour phone. That was a car phone. It does a very big deal. There's a. Very big deal. Could we call it the only number I know is the one that comes up at fucking 1:00 AM on the TV, everyone I know and I call when it's like, do you want to party?


Has died. Hey.


Hey, you want kids? Double cars, sex with your friend and friend sitting next to you. So, Horowitz. Horrible. So in addition to him being the biological son of the Robeson County sheriff, he's OK? No, he one of the lead detectives on the case is Mark Leclair. He's a friend of this kid, the son D and sometimes let's d right along in his patrol car with him.


OK. All right.


Here's the biggest problem is that D is the only person on that car phone call log to never be questioned in connection with the case. Thirty six people, they question let's say 34 my n sex line, they give it a call for she's like, hello, answering any questions you want.




But at nine, they lead out the number thirty six person. Ridiculous. Right. It doesn't. It's bad. That's bad. Yeah. That's. That's not good. No. And Green's attorney finds that the prosecution knew of Deasy's relationship to the sheriff and lead detective and he doesn't disclose any of this to the defense at trial. So, like that alone is just a mistrial probably at that point. Don't you? I would think so. Yes, I think that's what they're going for.


Yeah. So Green's lawyer thinks that James Jordan, what they say is that James Jordan was in the wrong place at the wrong time when a drug dealer drug deal was about to go down and Damrey, this kid D or another party shot him. And they say that maybe to use his connection to local law enforcement helped him get out of trouble. But the kid, this kid D himself doesn't comment on this angle, but his lawyer says that the theory is completely unfounded.


And he claims that Greene and Emery had only called him because they kind of knew that he was a local drug dealer and he might be someone who would be in the market to buy the car they had just stolen. Which sounds totally feasible to me. It's just so weird that he has these connections. So that makes sense. It's just such, you know, it's the investigators fault that they didn't look into this one name. Well, and then why is this issue also or was it intentional?


Yeah. You know why I did. It's on them. Pretty diligent. Right. Right. I mean, don't call every person because also why wouldn't you? It just doesn't seem very smart. Where it's like if you say you were trying to cover for someone's son as an insult, why wouldn't you just have the actual do the. And the investigation. Do the interrogation? I'm going to go through the motions if I'm a fake alibi.


If he needs Mike, I'm not telling you how to do yours. How did you know Josh? But like like pretend that you're going through the motions. Right.


But but maybe in those you know, what we've seen before in stories like this where in small towns when there's such a lock on that the law enforcement aspect of life and it's a lock, like no one messes with certain people. No one does certain things that maybe they're no they're never pulling back and saying this is going to be a national, if not international story. We better cross every dot, every I. They're just like a business as usual.


So in the early 2000s, actually the Robeson County Sheriff's Office is like caught up in a federal corruption probe. So there are issues with the sheriff's department. Aside from this, it's not a coincidence. The probe is called Operation Tarnished Badge, which is really clever. Twenty two officers are charged with crimes including perjury, drug trafficking and money laundering.


So but neither Locklear or Sheriff Stone are caught up in the federal probe at all. And Stone dies in 2008, and D serves some time of a federal sentence. He's released in 1998. He denies any involvement with the death at all. And there's really nothing to connect him to except except for that phone call. And the curious circumstances that he never got asked about it, you know.


Yes. And what's interesting is they could have literally been like, we got this car, which means we might have money soon. Let's see if we can get some pot or something. That is just it it it alludes to more, but actually is just kind of a standard fare could very standard of like a small a small town, small time drug traffickers or drug dealers. So they can't have, you know, maybe maybe five thousand dollars at a time of drugs to be sold so that they know that's going to have the kind of money to buy this brand new Lexus.


Not a lot of people. So they they think of the one guy they know who might have an actual hookup, you know, and then who if it's a hot car, they can actually.


Right. And it's a hot car. He's like, fuck, you know, rage any. Smart crook would know to do. But see. Yeah. And they also like the idea that they would make that video and wear that. Which means that at some point they knew who they kill. Oh, they absolutely knew.


I think yeah, it sounds like a medium. Is that you killed them that night? No, I don't think they knew. But I loka whoever killed him didn't know. They found out immediately. But they didn't seem not bummed. They made a fucking music video video. So it turned, you know.


Meanwhile, both both Damiri and Green had been partners in at least two other armed robberies.


That's that same summer during one of which Green had stolen a 38 caliber gun from an elderly county store clerk who he shot, allegedly. The clerk survives. They found that stolen firearm in a shop back in Greene's home after his arrest. They say it's the weapon that killed James Jordan, but they can't prove it through ballistics. So they're like, this is all you know, this is obviously what happened. It's not that complicated. But they're still fighting it in Green's post conviction Moate motion.


His legal team argues that prosecutors didn't disclose at trial that multiple other chemical tests performed by that woman, Elwell, on the leather taken from Jordan's front seat were inconclusive and blood might not have been present. So there's all these blood issues. And over the years, the state has agreed that there was little evidence to show much or any blood inside Jordan's car. And Green's attorney says the absence of blood goes against the official version of events which Damiri, you know, had made and gives enough reasonable doubt for Green's case.


And also weird is that the blood evidence in the case was destroyed almost immediately after the trial, which Elwell later admitted was out of the norm. And the head of the lab said the evidence had been destroyed without his knowledge. Well, someone got in there. Yeah, an outside audit of the state crime lab. And in 2010, that just happened, you know, otherwise found that analysts emitted overstated or falsely reported information about blood evidence in a hundred and ninety cases from 1987 to 2003 that ended in convictions.


Well, such people need to think about when they think about fucking. Well, he's a convicted felon. It's like he you know, this person is clearly guilty because there was blood evidence or this kind of evidence. You know, we're talking about humans making doing these tests. Other humans and humans are fallible completely. Yeah. So you just never know what you can count on.


Yes. That's very true. Very true. Thank you.


We've been doing this show for four year and a half. You know, it's four and a half. It's almost like we're in an abusive relationship with true crime.


If you look at the way true crime has been served up for a long time is like, here's the story, here's the case. Here's the the infallible source is more the final word. Here's how you can feel about it. You know, Paris's. Yeah, it's important. And it's a it's a major change, but it's like. Yeah, it's like that part in the staircase, you know. Right. One of one of our bonding pieces of media where they show that that guy that was the blood splatter x ray was making shit up.


And, you know, just maybe things I truly like until I saw that documentary, I was just like, I'm sorry. Yeah. Like, this is this is there's no way to make up science. Like, there's no way you can do that. And it's like, of course you can. Of course you can mishandle thing, right? Of course you do. You know, you're the ones that saying, well, here's how we're going to test it.


In my era, honestly, you can't rely on eyewitness testimony because humans. Brint humans have fallible brains. You know. Yeah. That can't be the only evidence. Exactly. And it's like then you have to make sure that you're that all the sources are OK. And yeah, I mean, it's it's bewildering to think about. And it's very scary. Things have to change. Yes. The processes have to change. And, you know, and that's why people get mad at us.


If we're like people clap at the end of a life show. I are glad that a serial killer died or went to jail. And it's just like that. Used to be I'd be like, what are you talking about, Nick? Because there are those people who are in jail and they should not be. Right. OK.


So these days, as of twenty eighteen. Green is making an appeal for a retrial and he claims that he wasn't even present during the shooting. So at this point, he he's now telling his side of the story. He says he's guilty of accessory to murder after the fact. At the most, Green's official version of the events on that night of July 20 30, 1993, is that he and Emery were at a cookout at a friend's house around 130.


Damiri left the party on his own and Green stayed behind. And then Damrey returned to grab his friend and he was visibly upset. He asked Greene to come along with him and they left the party together at four thirty a.m.. And Larry says that the reason he had left earlier was for a drug deal. And Steib had gotten in a confrontation with a man in a red Lexus and he had fatally shot him. And he asked his best friend, Daniel Green, to help him dispose of the body.


Green says he agrees to do it and they take his possessions, realized who he is. But he does help him dispose of the body. So that's what he is admitting to at this point. But he he says he wasn't there for the murder and he didn't pull the trigger himself.


If Green was only convicted of what he's admitting to, which is accessory after the fact, he would have received a maximum sentence of 10 years under the North Carolina law. But instead, he continues serving his life sentence in a medium security prison more than 25 years later. And so what's actually interesting is that Demaris story between his original confession when he was told that his friend was turning against him, interviews with authorities and his testimony against Greene. His story has changed several times over the year, whereas Greene's has stayed the same.


But after his request for a new hearing is denied and Damiri declines to comment on his new claims. Nothing moves forward. And Green will be eligible for parole on October 14th, 2021. His lead attorney is Christine Muma, and she's the executive director of the North Carolina Center on Actual Innocence. So Total Bad Ass, a nonprofit that focuses on wrongful conviction and whose efforts have led to criminal justice reform. She says that they'll continue to appeal Green's case.


And, you know, they're now in their late 40s and Damrey is also being considered for parole, even though he was denied twice, once in August 2013 and once in 2016. And according to a spokesperson, there is a review going on of his case as of twenty nineteen, and there's no deadline to make a decision. So it's kind of just sitting there. Up there. Yeah, well. Have you ever wished you could talk to cats?


Well, we have the next best thing. I'm Sarah Eyer and I'm seeing remorse hosts of the per cast that's per with three R's. It's a podcast all about cats. We can't talk to cats, so we talk to people who know and love them. Each episode we invite a fellow feline lover, comedian, celebrities, kitty caretakers and animal artists to name a few. And we gush with Emma about her favorite furry friends. Tune into the podcast on Exactly Right Network for new episodes every Wednesday.


Plus, check out her back catalogue for many more episodes of us chatting. Cancel their favorite feline loving friends, listen and subscribe to the podcast and all of exactly writes shows on Apple, podcasts, stitcher or wherever you like to listen.


Right, meow. So after retiring from basketball, Michael Jordan pursues a career in baseball to honor his father and joins the Chicago White Sox, which I never knew was why he retired from basketball and became a member. He became a best baseball. Yeah, Persse.


I never knew that was the reason either. Why I didn't know that the timeline of that at all. The other. After one season, he returns to the NBA. He won three more championships with the Chicago Bulls before leaving the team in 1998, retires for a second time, joins the Washington Wizards in 2001 and plays for them until 2003. He is considered one of the greatest basketball players of all time, and he's inducted into the NBA Hall of Fame in 2009.


But the death of his father still leaves unanswered questions for many people. And the conspiracy theory that James Jordan was killed because of his son's gambling debts is still hotly debated. And the fact that the actual story has a lot of holes and doesn't quite add up just kind of helps with the rumors. And I feel like there's also this thing where it's like the simplicity of two 18 year olds out for, you know, a joy ride and trying to rip off a tourist and murdering one of the greatest basketball legends of our time.


His father and greatest supporter. It's just it's so tragic. I feel like a lot of people just don't want that to be the truth.


You know, I mean, yeah, that that that tragedy could be that random, right? I don't know. That's fascinating. James Jordan died nine days before his fifty seventh birthday.


So, yeah, I know about him. He has just this kind face when you see him in photos with his son, when they're celebrating, it's just like the pride you can just see in his face about his father.


Michael Jordan once said, quote, He's a voice of reason that always drove and challenged me. My father used to say that it's never too late to do anything you wanted to do. And he said, you never know what you can accomplish until you try. And that is the murder of James Jordan.


Wow. That's fascinating. No idea. I can't believe it. Yeah, it's not just it's just bewildering. Yeah, yeah. And tragedy, it's crazy and tragic.


And then him and Michael Jordan being already in the spotlight. I. It is so sad. It's. Yeah. The idea that Michael Jordan was put through that tragedy, like in the spotlight. Yes. And then blamed that sting. And it's like beer blamed for totally. That's horrifying.


Like, look what you did when really it's just I don't I don't believe any of the conspiracies. I think it was just a fucking time and place. And big coincidence that I think it was a simple a simple robbery that turned. Yeah. You know.


Yeah. It would make some. But then again, like John, there's still. But who knows who shot him. That's the thing is like we don't know who pulled the trigger. So there's still this mystery going on. It's like. Right. It's just sad all around.


Yeah. Great job. Thank you. Really good. Thanks. Oh, we're coming up on that two hour mark.


So far away I.


You guys want a million hours. I'll give it to you next week.


Yeah. Really. Should we do some some fucking her. Right. Yeah. Hey you guys, we need you to send in more fucking her eyes. Maybe just comments on Instagram or Twitter or in the fan called up your fucking array's or e-mail them to us at my favorite murder.


And I guess that could just be things that have made you happy this week or wins that you're feeling or, you know, shout outs. So you want to give just something good at the end of these horrible fucking stories that we have. Yeah. So please send those in. And then if you sent them in and we haven't seen them or haven't talked about them sentiment again, because we probably don't see them.


This is I love this one because the subject line is this is a fucking hurray, but I don't know where else to submit. So here I am, lost amongst the hometown paper. So this must be from the fan. It's a fan. Yeah. Hello to all the beautiful souls of MFM, both with and without pause. I have only discovered this podcast very fairly recently, but I've been ql episodes and I'm completely caught up. Yay! Thank God I found you guys truly feel like I know you and that you both get me so much.


It's beautiful. Anyways, my fucking hurray is not only that. My fiancee and I both survived a corona virus. Wow, amazing.


But we're both also celebrating 18 months sober and have truly gotten our lives back on track. Shit. Oh, my God. It's incredible. OK, not only as a unit, but as individuals as well. We have both struggled with drug addiction for the majority of our lives and have been so extremely blessed to come out alive and on the other side. I know it's not all going to be a piece of cake from here on out, but I say we've already been through hell and high water so we can make it through anything, including both testing positive for Coro.


God God bless it. It's real. People wear your damn. Crazy times. We are crazy times we're living in. And I couldn't be more thankful to have my recovery family, my amazingly wonderful man. And as my fiancee knows y'all, my murder girls love in light Eden. See. But congratulations and seeing about six different front. Oh my God. That's such lovely news all around. I'm so glad. Yeah. So glad that you came through a corona virus and are OK.


Congratulations. You're like the rest. Your life is gonna be fucking awesome now.


You've done it. Yeah. I mean you've really. You've really done it.


I've done it and you're doing it and you're gonna continue to do it.


18 months of sobriety is so much. So much.


That's let's not be weird new parents about it. Let's call 18 months a year and fuck.


And six months, which is that 90. Let's see a bit big old. Do they do by days.


Yes. And 90 days. And then it's that two year.


I don't know. Let's see. It's two chips minus a 20 day chip.


90 chip. They make your change in chips. Congratulations on the bell. Yeah. And they're such a huge community online and just in murdering us alone on Facebook and Instagram of people working towards sobriety. It's great. And find so much support, so many people that, you know, have found each other. It's really lovely. So congratulations.


OK. This is just goes a fucking hurray my fucking theory for this week. I had to share with you. I work as a nursing assistant while going to nursing school. I take care of women who have gynecological cancers this weekend while being overloaded with too many patients and not enough time. I was stressed and constantly running around. One of my 14 patients asked for help in her room and I go in to help her to the bathroom and get her comfy back in bed.


And while in her room, she told me she had recently had a stroke in May. And I told her for someone who had a stroke. She was doing amazing with her speech and walking. And she said she had one more goal she needed to achieve and with her childlike sweetness. I'm assuming an intellectual delay from her stroke. She said, quote, I need to keep working on my physical therapy with my middle finger. I thought, OK, odd goal, but it's a goal.


I said, your middle finger. And she replied, Yes, I miss being able to flip the bird at people.


I don't think I had smiled so hard and so long. Then she said, quote, I usually just practice when the president's ads come on TV. I try and flip the bird. I literally laughed out loud. And that sweet little goal of hers changed my entire perspective for the rest of my crazy day. Thank you guys for keeping me sane during such crazy times. I hope you all stay safe and healthy. Remember, stay sexy. Don't hang out with murderers at your kid's sporting events and wear a fucking mask in public.


Lauren. Yeah. Nice guess, Lauren. Good one, Laura. Your daughter. Your fun doing God's work.


Yeah. For real. Well, here's more of us. Hi, friends. My trucking her is that I started a fucking highway at work. I'm a social worker in Philadelphia working at a methadone clinic. As you can imagine, our work is filled with stress, anger, fear and heartbreak. And as a black social worker, the pain has been doubled. We didn't want to keep ending our weekly meetings on a low note. So I suggested we start a fucking hurray.


The first one shared was from my coworker who just got engaged to his partner of eight years. Oh, that's beautiful. Thank you for continuing to do the work of destigmatizing mental health and for your work towards equality. See sexy and be nice to your therapists. In parentheses, we're struggling to Britney.


Wow. Isn't that awesome? I love that. Oh, my God. So good. I have one more. OK. Hello. Bold women, which I love. I've never thought of myself as a bull. That's awesome.


I have been embracing your fucking array messages lately and I'm so happy to be able to share one. I was diagnosed with breast cancer in August. Twenty nineteen. Had a mastectomy in November. Chemotherapy from January through April, followed by radiation therapy. Holy shit. I had my last treatment this Wednesday. Fucking hooray! Indeed, the biggest worry is that I have my amazing husband and daughter. Hi, Emma. She's a listener who have done everything in their power to make all this nonsense bearable.


I honestly couldn't have done it without them.


So fucking hurray for my beautiful little family peace and wow, I love this. It's like a medical fucking her race session. Oh, it's like a yearbook of medical roaring back. Yeah. I love it. All righty.


And health and healing and sassiness.


Yeah. And building on the goodwill of gratitude. Yeah. I love it. Do you watch it. Do you have a fucking rifle this week.


Just so my sister and I have started doing. No. That's not it. You know what it is fucking crying.


It is weird and good and also not I don't love. It's terrible. But I know it's important and it's bringing up, you know, old reminders of crying. That's not it either.


It can be crying. Yeah. That's good, isn't it? I didn't like shower sob.


And did you slide down the wall and then hold your face? We have a bench seat. So I sat on the little bench and then, yeah, I held my face and it was like a kind of a thing. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, good. OK.


And then I cut all my hair off and look at my fucking Turay. Is that I my my first quarantine cell haircut isn't terrible. It looks great.


I to be honest, I just thought you trimmed your bangs. I didn't think there was any different. It's just another Bob. It's not it's actually not the worst haircut I've ever had, which is saying a lot. Oh yeah. Oh that's cool. I love it. All those things and more. What's yours? Well because I just was going to say, you know, for a long time, my I would try to very quickly talk through myself crying in therapy where I didn't want to cry.


So I'd be like, well. And I thought if I could just talk, it would she would kind of ignore the fact that I was crying and she would always make me stop and cry separately. You don't want to wait. You're 50 minutes. You don't want to waste any of it crying. Yes. And I'd like seven good stories like you need to hear this lady. Yeah, it sure is.


Hold on. Breathe. I'm holding it with you. Is infuriating.


And it made me cry.


I can only I mean, it's been so long and I can only now just I have to stop myself and be like, I know you're not gonna let me into power through this, but it really is, because I think part of when I was younger, when I would start crying, I would think, well, this is just how it's going to be from now.


And I mean, like, I've been overtaken by this feeling and.


Now I'm powerless to it. And that would that idea would make me crazy. And anyway, I'm so I'm such a fan now. Yeah, I know I am, too. I'm gonna keep keep going with it. It's bringing shit up and that's important, too.


I would say that mine and this is very almost like very specific to you and I and what we've been going through lately. I'm really loving the power of not saying anything at all.


We've had a couple moments exactly rude on your row lately that were very key and they were important and there was a lot of pressure on us to, like, respond and fill the air and make other people feel better about things. And I would say it happened a handful of times over a matter of days. And we just sat there and it there is something to not filling the air and not letting other people off the hook and not letting people be comfortable when they're demanding you do it in lots of different small ways and instead sitting in silence because it's a difficult thing to do.


And it really is a incredible power move, not sitting in silence without, like, filling the air and not apologizing, like stating your side and fact and truth without say ever saying the words I'm sorry or sorry or using that is. I swear to you, it's a it's a lifelong practice, but especially lately, it's almost like I feel inside. I feel taller.


It's like I guess I was a superpower an hour. It's I am so used to filling the silences to get other people off the hook because I don't like awkward silences, but then no one to know.


And then you learn that when you just be quiet and let other people talk. You learn a lot and it's important. And we've been through that. And it's it's been business stuff. And I think as women, yeah. We want to let people off the hook a lot.


And also, just as a sidebar addendum, just since it's on my mind in this moment, I would just like to say this to both you and I and anybody who's ever in this position. But I think especially women in business situations, people like to get you to talk about your feelings. They like to refer to your feelings, and they like to bring your feelings up so that later your feelings are what the point is and not the facts of what you have a problem.


And so I would just advise everyone to keep their eye on that, that when people start talking about I know you're upset. I know you feel this way. You have to be sure to get in and correct and say that's not what we're talking, whether I'm upset or stoked. This would still be happening. We're not talking about my reaction to what's happening. We're talking about what's happening. Right. So it is a fact not I'm not my upset.


This is not the fact is not it's not on it's not what's relevant here. And we all have reactions to things. And that's not we're talking about what the problems are. And that is something I got talked that a little while ago, but it's come up lately.


And it's really amazing how often that is, you know, in business, in lots of things, in life, in relationships. Everything can be a tactic. You know, it's like I don't want to be. People want their way. They want to feel right. They want to do whatever. And you you have to just always be your own best lawyer when and make sure that people don't allow people to frame arguments in a way that then puts you in a in a certain light.


And suddenly we're all talking about what your like because that's not it. And I think it's a it's a trick. It's a tactic maybe. And sometimes there's people who just don't even know they're doing it.


It's not an awareness and inherent thing that we've you know, it's just the habit of, oh, the little lady's upset, right, gal? So that's a yeah, that's another. I just don't say it. Well, I'm proud of this. I feel like we've we've we're getting the job done. We're bad ass motherfuckers and I'm proud of us.


And someday you'll be someday. Cool.


Thank you to Steven Ray Moore and Ray Moore and always being having our business lady backs. Yes. And so much so. Thank you, Steven, and thank you for all the work. Steven, right now. My God, a one man band, a dude podcast engineer. Oh, sometime podcast producer. And he is wearing every hat in America while he's at a home and an apartment, also raising a child. So there's so much there's.


And Stephen, you've been killing it. Thank you. Thank you so much. We could I mean, I know we've said it a couple times, but we literally could not do the show. This network wouldn't exist as it is without you at all. It's no. Not at our very dear dear, too. You're doing an amazing job and we really appreciate it. Thank you.


Raising a kid and a cat. Thank you. Good one. And we love you, Steven.


I know we do.


Thank you guys for listening, as always. This is the fucking coolest.


Job and life. And it's because of you guys and we're so grateful for listening to us and connecting with us and identify are so grateful that you like the idea of one story.


We thank you for that support, that unwavering and beautiful support.


Mental health could last another three years on this podcast. Since you guys are letting us do so, good is here other than the one more year with the show or big once a year podcast episodes coming up.


Thank you so much for supporting it. We love you. And thank you for even giving a shit one way or the other. That's what's beautifuls people care enough to even care about. It's right. So that's a gift. We appreciate it. We're we're glad to do the show for you. Stay sexy and don't get murdered. Good bye.


Elvis, do you want a cookie?