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[00:00:01]

See 13 originals. This is a documentary series about Traci Lords who entered the porn industry at age 15 and left at age 18. There are some who view this as the story of a young girl who has taken advantage of by a brutal industry. There are others who view this as the story of a smart and resourceful young woman who, armed with a legitimate I.D., nearly took down that industry as well as the people in it. There are still others who view this as the story of the unlikeliest feminist icons.

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All views will be discussed. These are real life events. These are real people being interviewed. This podcast contains adult themes and graphic language. Listener discretion is advised. Previously on Once Upon a Time in the Valley. Tracy becomes not just a nude model, but the nude model when she appears as a centerfold in a September 1984 issue of Penthouse. Everybody knew Tracy was in Penthouse, was great for her career. She was ecstatic. Tracy meets adult actor Tom Biron.

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He had a big dick and he could fuck and girls liked him and he didn't have to say anything. And as soon as he would talk, people would go, just did. You don't need to talk, Tommy. And he didn't.

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Tracy and Tom start dating. And it's with Tom that Tracy does her first hardcore photo shoot, even if it's supposed to be soft.

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They started fucking on the set. The shooter had to stop shooting, but he wasn't shooting hardcore. I'm Lilliana, and this is Once Upon a Time in the Valley featuring Ashley West. When we left Tracy last episode, she was standing on the border of the porn world. She hadn't yet cross that border, but she's about to. One thing I've learned from doing this podcast, Ashley, if you want to be able to operate in the porn world, you've got to be able to communicate in porn code.

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Absolutely. The porn world is in many ways a closed off world. And this private language is a way of keeping outsiders out. OK. So Tom Byron moves to L.A. from Houston in 1980. He wants to get into porn, but it's stymied. Spend several years kicking around in non porn jobs. Finally, he makes it inside the world modeling agency, the gateway to all things porn. And in front of all modeling agencies, owner Jim s the gatekeeper to all things porn is here.

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The Tom learns to talk. The talk. When I walked in and I talked to him a little bit, and as soon as he gave me that cute little cat spiel or whatever, I you know, I mentioned that, you know, about movies. I want to be in movies. I see these girls and. And that's what I wanted to do. And he really got kind of he got not paranoid, but just kind of like, well, we don't really talk about that.

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I mentioned I was some taxes, he was some taxes. And I kind of broke down his little guard there after a while. And then he said, well, yeah, we we do do that, but we don't really talk about it in here. We refer to that as commercial. That's commercial work. Commercial work was code for like hardcore porn. It's actually Jim South who devised much of this code. Here's Jim Abdah one. It started originally using the terminology of B.G. g.G, ADP, DP, G, g.G, ADP, ASIC.

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Can you decode for us? Sure. Biji is a boiko meaning a sex scene between a male performer and a female performer. g.G is Gilgo meaning a sex scene between two female performers. DP is double penetration, meaning a sexy that involves the simultaneous penetration of one or more orifices of one performer by two other performers. And of course is for anal. Jim, again, the reason I came up with it is directors would come in and you want to come in and say in front of a brand new girl, I need a girl to do anal tomorrow night, Jim.

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Can you do it?

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Oh, you wanted to protect the virgin ears of new talent. That's sweet. Also necessary. It was against the law to make adult movies in L.A. all the way up until 1988 and the landmark California vs. Fremont case. Now, there were times when it was more against the law than others. The LAPD cracked down or loosened up depending on who was in office. In 1984, the atresia entity industry. Ronald Reagan had just begun his second term. He got elected in large part due to the support of the Christian right, which was in a state of alarm because VHS had made pornographic material so widespread and accessible.

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Reagan asked his attorney general, Edwin Meese, to create a committee known as the Miss Commission to study the effects of sexually explicit material. His John H. Western, a First Amendment attorney and former counsel for the Adult Film Association of America, on what exactly that commission was up to.

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Technological changes sounded the death knell of any possible attempt on the part of the receiver or censors or folks who for other reasons were not comfortable with sexually oriented material. And so the commission was put together a benefit, the politics of the people who put it together, and B, also because of they, meaning the censors and the religious folks who really sponsored this. If they didn't win, if they didn't prevail, if they didn't get the result they wanted and have government step in aggressively at that time.

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It was all over but the shouting.

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So truth is coming into the industry at a time when the stakes are quite high, both for it and for the government. But actually, I still don't understand how points illegal. On what grounds?

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Former LAPD vice squad detective Bob Novarro explains. In our opinion, the producers and directors were all involved in hiring models and people to commit sex acts, to film and to make money. So we apply the pandering and pimping laws to to that Jim s who is a pimp. By that reckoning, sees the law a little differently.

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Back then you could watch a movie, you could rent a movie, you could buy a movie, but you could make a movie. And even the cops that I got to know real well. I even laughed about this. If your talent it's a misdemeanor, it's prostitution. If you were an agent or a director, it just fell on me. It's pimping and pandering. The minimum sentencing guideline was three years per count. Meaning if you had four girls in a movie, you would get a minimum of three years poor.

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Count times for girls, which is 12 years. I know of murderers that have not spent that much time in jail.

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So basically to be a porn person back then is to be by definition, a criminal. Right.

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And to practice your trade, you have to go outside the bounds of the law, which is a tricky place from which to operate as adult performers. Tom Byron and Sharon Mitchell know all too well.

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The vice department, the D.A. and everyone did not like the fact that people were shooting porn in Los Angeles. It was not accepted or know. We were currently under under the gun. We had to basically operate, I'm afraid. I mean, elements like rugbyleague, Letelier take a meeting place like a market or something like a safe flea market. We park our cars, we get you vans and our bus. And then we would drive from there and we take little side streets.

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And we were tailed by the L.A.P.D.. There was a guy who was sort of a silent backer. We used to shoot up at his mansion a lot. Up in up in Malibu. And literally, I think they said they would scan the footage. I'm sure they did, and there was one cop in particular that recognized these palm trees and the view and the scene and nailed it down to that location, to the producers, to the backers, et cetera, et cetera.

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Fresh offers contactless delivery to your doorstep for easy home cooking with a family, go to hello fresh dot com. Slash the valley A-T and use code. The Valley Eighty to get a total of eighty dollars off, including free shipping on your first box. Additional restrictions apply. Please visit. Hello, fresh dot com. For more details. So it's October of 1984. Mere weeks after Tracy's issue of penthouse hit stands. Here's Tom Byron explaining why adult magazines can only get you so far.

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You do Hossler do Penthouse. Do you know all the major magazines? And then after a while, I mean, you kind of got shot up because you'd worked for all the different photographers once or twice. You know, you started showing up in magazines stuff. And then, you know, I was like, well, the real money is in doing the movie. It's kind of like the next logical step. I mean, that's where the money is.

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So the question becomes, how does that next logical step get made? Here's how Ginger Lynn, who began appearing in movies about six months before Tracey made that step. Jim Khoza asking me, you know, do you want to do commercial and at first I, I, I, I wasn't offended, but I, I said to him, I'm not that kind of girl. I had the same stereotype image of a porn star as many people did in that day and time that the re prostitution.

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I thought, you know, a lot of the negative things and those things were not me. So for three months I turned it down.

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And one day I walked into Jim's office and there was this beautiful girl in a white dress smoking a cigarette. And one of those long cigarette holders. And she was reading a script and she's going through it. She's reading dialogue and she's talking to Jim and she's smoking your cigarette. And she's beautiful and she's intelligent, articulate, nothing that I thought was a porn star.

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If I could, I would tell you her name. But I can't. I just don't remember. So I took her to lunch and she said, well, I. I have script approval. I have cast approval.

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I get a thousand dollars per scene and I say no to anything I don't want to do. And I'm like, all right. That sounds really cool. So I went back in and it's like, I'm going to do it. Here's my rules. And Jim's on the floor laughing. He's like, no one is ever going to pay you. This is a this is a movie star. This is a porn star. She's famous. And I said, OK, well, then I'm not going to do it.

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So a couple of weeks later, I was hanging out Jim's office and do remember The Gong Show.

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You remember the big tall blonde that did the gong. Her name was that lot of marsh and svitlana. And David were doing their first porno film. They were shooting it on the island of Hawaii. They wanted people who had never been in films before. And they agreed to all my terms.

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And here's how Christy Cannon, who began appearing in movies about six months after Tracey made that step. But before Christy get started, Ashley, can you explain to us what a loop is? Because we're going to need to now show Loop's a single real porn movies typically shot Scholten eight millimeter and lasting only 10 minutes or so. They've been around since the AltX industry started. And they're called Loop's because they used to be projected in peep show booths in one continuous loop.

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Remarkably, there were still being made in the 1980s.

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Now, Christy, Jim's like, okay, well, you know, now you're going to do a loop at the house in the hills. Turns out years later, who own that Billy Idol? He owned it years after.

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But anyway, so I show up thinking in a loop. Must've been like another magazine shoot. And then I see, like, camera crews and the guys carrying the cables and the trucks. And I'm thinking of, you know, what did I get into? And of course, no one had a cell phone back then, so I used like the home phone there to call Jim South, which I still is, number by heart. It went eight above above.

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And I'm like, Jim, why are there camera crews in this man? And you say, it's a loop. I, I told you. That's why you're getting five hundred dollars instead of 400 or whatever.

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Oh, I didn't realize a loop was saxen on camera.

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Like for some reason that made a difference. I did do a few hard core layouts where it was hard core.

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It was for a magazine only. There was no filming camera around.

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It was all just photographs. This kind of fun is just the photographer and the guy in me. No big deal. So what if it's hardcore?

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But Tenley, like I was going now into the next dimension of the adult world and I was going to be on film and he's like, but it's just a loop. You know, you don't need dialogue. Now, I think there was even like a little. You don't want to get sued. I'm oh, my God, I saved ten thousand dollars. I don't want it to go out the window on. It was, you know, when I was like a little paranoid and.

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Oh, my God.

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Oh, my God. So I thought, okay, just do it. Just do it. And I remember thinking I was like I was sick to my stomach with nerves.

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I mean, I was absolutely petrified. Yet I left. There was no one there holding me like, you know, but I chose to stay. So Ginger makes the transition with eyes wide open and in full control. Christie makes it dazed and blinking and in a panic. And yet both have the same first experience. A bad one. Christie's co-star is a triple threat, middle aged, overweight and Harry.

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I was, I think at the time just thinking, where did I go wrong? How did I end up in a fuckin porno film with this guy that I'm not even sure what his name is. He stole my fucking breakfast. This isn't what 18 year olds strive to do if they even know about this, like who even really knew about porn in the 1980s.

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Regret comes fast. I remember I cried after just because I felt like an innocence had been taken from me.

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Like there's almost no turning back. Unhelped on film is not just in a magazine and for some reason at 18 even know that made a difference to me.

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I think I may have gotten a little sold down the river, but it's OK because it all worked out.

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I love you, Jim Self, but I didn't know that a loop was hard core. Ginger doesn't catch a break with her co-star either. He's equally middle aged and overweight and maybe even Harrier. And I'm like, oh. And I've never seen a hair like that. And I didn't know that men were like bears. They just had no fucking idea. And it just was disgusting. I told Michael Carpenter, the director. I didn't tell. I asked.

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I said I would prefer if we do most of this doggy. So I don't have to look at him because I'm thinking if I don't look at him, I can pull this off. This is going to be the ultimate test for me. I remember looking at the camera, Michael, going lick your lips and I. Ginger makes it through the scene, but wishes she hadn't. Is ready to walk off the set out of the industry, never to return.

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And then she decides to stick around for her second scene. This time, her co-star is Tom Byron. He's like this young guy with this huge cock and he's so sweet and we're just so attracted to each other. And we're like even seconds before the cameras rolling. It's just wonderful. You know, it's the way that porn is supposed to be where you love what you're doing. You go in, you do it.

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Tom understands that he preserved a national treasure. She wanted to get out of the business. She was kind of like, this is kind of disgusting. But then she worked with me and she had a good time. I had a good time. She was like, well, guys like this in the business. Then I guess it's not so bad. So I'm actually responsible for her choosing to remain in porn. Yeah. Yeah. America has a debt of gratitude.

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Same as Ginger. Christie wants out of porn as soon as she gets in. Tom, turn Ginger around. Ginger will do likewise.

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For Christie, it was a whole different energy. The set was more alive and it was like Ginger Lynn.

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Peter North. Probably Tom Byron.

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I just remember thinking, oh, my God, they're also young and cute. I was talking to Ginger right away who was adorable, this cute little Maeno perky blonde getting her makeup done and telling me where the douches were. And like, I didn't know what a douche was, you know, like that kind of thing.

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She knew that I was new at this and she was very, you know, very sister not says I got to legally say stepsister Lee. She knew I'd never been with a girl on film or on film. She was very, you know, in structure. Oh, you know, well, when I'm done with makeup and you're going to sit here and we could go over our lines together and I'm going to be really good with you, you know, that like very warm and very open.

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It was a whole like it was a 180. It changed my whole viewpoint on the business.

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Christie's viewpoint may have changed, but the world hasn't. Here she is on the moment her family found out what she'd been up to. They found out right away. Someone told them, because I was born and raised here in this valley. So when the first person found out it was like wildfire, like it was such common. Just everybody knew. And it was so tawdry to do. I mean, in the 80s, it was so kind of considered dirty and underground to do porn.

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Like part of me was like, well, what did you expect me to do? You kick me out at 17 and a half. Not that I have ill feelings. And it all turned out. But I remember at the time thinking, haha, what did you think was going to happen? You know, like I had to survive.

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The moment is every bit as devastating for Ginger. My parents found out that I was making adult films and my grandparents and it was a really big deal. They had completely cut me off and I was going through a really, really bad time. They said I wasn't part of the family anymore. I was allowed to see my brothers or sister. My grandfather was rolling over in the grave and I called Susan and she came up to my place and spent a couple of hours with me and just helped me to decide what to do.

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We wrote or I spent the next three days writing a letter to my family. Susan was there for me to help write this letter. And my father passed away about three years ago in a motorcycle accident. And I got to go through all of his things. And one of the things I found was that letter I have, the original letter that I wrote to my father, letting them know who I really was and how they raised me helped me to be the woman that I was proud of being.

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And if it weren't for Sue's coming over and telling me you'd need to get out of this funk, you need to get to shit together. You need to incorporate. You need to take this as a business or get out. You need to make a choice. Suze was there for me.

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So, Ashley, it seems like what happens is that these performers who are so young are teenagers, basically. I mean, Tracy's an even younger teenager, is an actual minor. But Christie and Ginger are only 18 and 19 when they start are rejected by their real families for doing porn. And so the porn industry becomes their family.

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Absolutely. That's something that Paul Thomas Anderson really nails and Boogie Nights. It's this familial bonds that in some respects holds the industry together.

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Ginger gravitates to Suze Randall as a mother substitute. Christy does the same with Jim South as a father substitute this in spite of your feeling that Jim has hoodwinked her a bit, got her on her first porn set under false pretenses. Here's Christie.

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He was my savior. And I remember one day and it was around the holidays and I didn't have family when I was 18.

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But I remember it was like a cold night and it was late like seven o'clock. It was dark outside. It was just Jim South and I in his office. And I remember thinking, I love this man. And I tried to kiss him and he backed up and he said, Oh, no, I can't do that with you. Why the hell does.

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But I remember thinking, like, looking back, I think you had such integrity. He had his way with me.

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You could have done anything to me.

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And I would have let him because that's how much I loved and appreciated him.

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I'm so struck by the words Christie uses to describe her first porn experience, the reaction of her family and friends. Unacceptable. Dirty. Underground.

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I think it's hard for someone living in 2020 to remember or realize just how taboo pornography was in 1984. Back then, you made a sex film and you were no longer part of civilized society.

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Right. And obviously, Ginger and Christie felt the pain of exile. I'm not discounting that pain, but there's an upside to exile. If you're not in civilized society, you're in uncivilized society, open territory, no borders, no fences, no laws, no rules and no establishment. You play your cards right. You become the establishment. Think about it. Ginger and Christie and Tracey, early to mid 80s. These girls are the first video vixens in the history of the world.

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And video is blowing up porn in this major, major way, which means there's opportunity galore. And you get a sense of that opportunity when you hear Anberlin, the fourth big female porn star of the day, the fourth big video vixen talk. Ginger is been one of the most famous women that has ever walked the face of the adult industry. Tracy Lawrence has been one of the ones I have been one of the Christy Cannon has been all in different ways in our own unique way.

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My thing was and I've always been this kind of person, oh, my God, there's this new business and we're going to make boatloads of cash. And I think that's my natural Virgo personality. I've always been that way. It was about, oh, you make a movie here, you go over here, you go on tour and you do the bookstore's. You get paid to do each one of those appearances. You go to the adult clubs, you dance in the adult clubs, you make money there.

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You do all these things. We didn't have all that when we first started making movies, it was illegal, we created all of those things literally. We wanted to be glamorous and we want to box covers. They said if you want to have box covers, you have to six separate days. Your movie is made on this day and your box covers shot on that day. And we were like, well, we're gonna get paid. So then with every movie we made, there was a negotiation for what it cost to put us on the box.

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We would go on the road and we would we would say, I want a limo. I want makeup, professional makeup. I don't want to look like my own makeup out of my teenage, you know, lipgloss bag from high school. We were like the founding mothers of the entire industry. That is one rousing speech from Amber, just hearing how she and Tracy and Ginger and Christy define the role of the modern porn star, how she looked, behaved, was treated, what she had coming and who was giving it to her.

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Even I feel pumped up.

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OK, so we know how Ginger Lynn and Christy Cannon made the decision to go from magazines to movies. And we know from Tracy's memoir how she made the decision. She didn't. The decision was made for her. She was tricked according to underneath it all. Not kind of sort of maybe tricked the way Christy was JMS, perhaps using a linguistic sleight of hand, but flat out deceived. Tom, Byron's response to Tracy's claim is a masterpiece of brevity.

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Bull fucking shit. He expands on it slightly. Yeah, that's not what happened. Now we we actually like. We're going out dating stuff before the scene.

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This is a bit of a he said she said situation. So let's make sure we know exactly what he and she are saying. Tracy is saying that she then just a nude model was on a porn set loaded on vodka and that Tom Biron to her, some random porn dude hit on her. They started to have sex. The sex was filmed without her knowing it. Bam! She was a porn star. And I quote the stuff of the moment.

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Tom Biron walked in and started flirting with me. I was wasted by that point. And since then, I've often wondered if he'd been sent to seduce me or if he just got lucky. All I can say is I never intended to be filmed having sex in that kitchen. And I only realized I was being filmed when it was nearly over. And Thomas saying that she was the aggressor. She came on to me like, wow, this fucking girl is gorgeous.

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La, la, la. All right, Ashley. So Tracy's got her first thing out of the way. She's crossed the border. She's now in the industry. Let's discuss her rise, her heat. My God. The terms in which he's talked about. It's as if she arrived from another planet straddling a thunderbolt. Yeah, not for Tracy. The usual route to start him quietly making a name for herself in small parts, working her way up.

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No, Tracy is an immediate sensation and everyone but everyone sits up and take notice.

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His Anberlin, when Tracy came and there was such a fury around her arrival and this new girl and she was just knocking down fences everywhere she turned.

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And Tracy was earning. She was the highest paid actress in the industry. Here's Tom Biron.

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She was making, you know, thousand dollars a day, making, you know, 20, 30 thousand. You know, sometimes wore, you know, a month back in the early 80s. That went a long way. Which jives with Jim s memory. He made about three hundred thousand dollars and less than a year. And actually, Jim, with no Widney, no question what Tracy was earning was quite literally Jim's business as her agent. He received a commission for just about every adult film and magazine appearance she made.

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This is a far cry from what Tracy told Larry King on his talk show in 2003. She said she made 40 take total meaning forty thousand dollars in the entire two and a half to three year period.

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She worked in the adult industry and the number she gives in her memoir is even lower. Thirty five k. Part of the reason Tracy was such a high earner is that she was prolific, though she also told Larry King she only made 20 films in her entire porn career. This is simply and verifiably not true. His Paul Fishbein, founder of Avión, the trade magazine for the adult industry, shot for everybody. I mean, she shot for everybody.

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And there were Traci Lords films coming out multiple every week, lol, a bunch of month. Tracy's making a lot of noise in the industry. Tracy is also making a lot of noise in the industry. Her sound is a signature as her look here, Susan Randall's husband, Humphrey Kneipe, who directs Tracy in 1980, fives love bites. Tracy Hughes, the female vocalisation Deep Throat had done both fellatio and the sounds aren't strictly an onscreen phenomenon. Here's Tom Biron.

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I mean, she made the same noises off camera that she didn't care. I guess I mean, her on camera persona is a little toned down on him. That makes sense. She was aggressive on and off camera, but it was a different vibe. Having sex on camera was a performance. Having sex on camera is cause you want to fuck, you know.

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I mean, that aggression Tom just referenced is yet another one of Tracy's signatures. If there's a female equivalent to balls, well, there is ovaries and Tracy has them big swinging ones as adult actor Tim Connolly recognizes. However much of a bitch she was because she greatly enjoyed playing that role. She was pretty smart. She didn't miss the trick. You know, I watched her on that set of ladies at least party the first time I saw her. And she just she was just a pouty little cunt, you know.

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But she just smelled like sex. You know, it looked like sex. And she was very well aware of what how she came across to people. And she played it. She played it to the end of degree, you know. If you walked up to her and you had lost in your eyes, she would not look at you right away and not answer you. If you talk to her right away. Everybody had to wait. And I kind of like doubt about her.

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That took a lot of ovaries for her to do that. Here's cultural critic James Walker, a kind of professional amateur when it comes to pornography.

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Even when she sort of was playing a character who was supposed to be demure, you never bought it for a moment. Everything about her was a kind of snarl. You know, I mean, not just her lips, you know, but but her whole body was kind of pouty and sulky. You felt like these guys really wanted to, like, dominate her. But no matter how much they tried, they couldn't do it. That she was stronger than all of them.

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Tom Connolly and James Walcott only watch Tracy in action fairly deep. One of the few black actors who appeared in mainstream adult movies at that time was part of her action.

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I remember the first time by working with Tracy that better staying up all night, doing some stupid things back in those days. As soon as I came in to the shoot, I said, Just come and get me when you're ready, cause I'm gonna go to bed. As is I was dozing off. Here comes this young, voluptuous, to say the least, woman balancing on. Bad guy. Hi, I'm Joe. I'm very excited to work with you.

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And I say to her, Yeah, OK, good. I look forward to for you as well. And I just kind of slowly goes up and she goes, well, I want to I want to tell you what I like. And basically, she just said, I like my hair. I like my face. I like this page. So anyway, I heard about her and I just kind of laughed it off and let it go. So we're still at this sea and we're dogs.

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But I remember once. Never lose my mind.

[00:33:19]

And you have to remember, I are black. All right. And she's getting harder and harder. Do this. That. I do that. And then she just went there and she said, let's go. I'd be like a boy as a boy. So anyway, I flipped over and my gosh. After you act, we were hard at it. And then she just always brought that little aggressive ass out. That battle is dominating spirit out of you.

[00:33:50]

She's just a fan. I love working. For that reason, adult actor, writer director Bill Marvel remembers a sex scene between Tracy and Jamie Gillis. Ashley, you're going to have to read this quote since Bill is no longer with us. Not a problem. OK. This is Bill. Markle's speaking. Jamie is having sex with her in Wild Things when they'll cut. She continues to say something to Jamie. That is way beyond her precocious years into his year, which even surprised Jamie, the most hedonistic person of all time.

[00:34:24]

Jamie Gillis is also no longer with us, but we know what the something is. The Tracey whispered in his ear because Jamie wrote a memoir called Naked in Public. It's been published only we have access to it because who did Jamie make his literary executor? That's right. Our very own Ashley West Ashley. Well, you read what Jamie wrote about Tracy. Sure.

[00:34:46]

Amy wrote later when her true age was revealed. Tracy came to be seen as an abused innocent, preyed upon by the dirty old men of the porn industry. Who knows? There might be some truth to that. But I can tell you that my personal experience with the dead child included a brief moment when the camera was turned off. We were having a good time. Did not disengage. And the dear little snot whispered in my ear. That's a good boy.

[00:35:13]

Fuck your mommy.

[00:35:15]

It isn't just the men who noticed Tracy's need to dominate. Here's Kristy Canyon. I don't know how she knew. I don't know. She was in control. She knew what she wanted. There was no delay. There was no like. Oh, check this. What she'd like. She knew what she was doing for a 16 year old. She was amazing and fun. Once we got into the sex, she was fun with it. She was sexy with it.

[00:35:40]

She gave it her I she gave one hundred percent. She wasn't like, OK, I'm done. She once the sex started, she was there till it was done. She was always kind of, you know what, I'd look back and call the Dom with it.

[00:35:52]

And I was fine. I was a total sub. She just owned those sets. I'll never forget. Nineteen eighty five. She said, me, Christy, don't ever let them use you. Don't ever be a fuck doll.

[00:36:07]

Don't ever be a fuck doll. Words to live by and maybe a new feminist anthem.

[00:36:15]

Next time on Once Upon a Time in the Valley, we had a conversation on the set of 2013 and we Part three, we spent a lot of permanent state just going to talk in herself. And she had been like one day and we'd be working for Paramount. No, this is going to matter. Word to that effect didn't think anything about. I'd just like whatever. These are all the things that I thought about once the story broke. Oh, that was a clue.

[00:36:41]

Oh, that was a clue. Oh, that was a clue.

[00:36:49]

This has been a presentation of C 13 originals, a division of kadence 13 executive produced by Chris Corcoran and me, Billy Anderlecht, directed by Zach Levitt, created and written by me. Produced by Ashley West. Edited and mastered by Chris Basle, Bill Schulz, Perry Craughwell and Ian Mott. Theme Music. An Original Score by Joel Goodman. Production Engineering Incoordination by Sean Cherry and Terence Melin. Bowen Field Recording by Rich Burner Artwork Marketing and PR by Kurt Courtney, Josephine Francis and Hillary Chef.

[00:37:25]

Once Upon a Time in the Valley is hosted by me and Ashley West. Thanks for listening.