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[00:00:08]

You are listening to the Reality Steve podcast with your host Reality Steve. He's got all the latest info. And behind the scenes, Juice and Claires upcoming season of The Bachelorette and interviewing some of your favorite reality stars. Now, here's a reality, Steve. What's up, everybody? Welcome to podcast number one. Ninety one time your host reality. Steve, thank you all for tuning in. Great show for you this week. Jazy Collins, former bachelor casting producer, joins us on the show.

[00:00:47]

She made some noise about a month ago with a post she made calling out The Bachelor franchise for their lack of diversity and what she dealt with as a casting producer. And we she's excellent today. She really dives into a lot of stuff about that. And so it's great to have Jazy on. And you'll hear that coming up shortly. But I know a lot of you want to know my thoughts on the Knick podcast from Tuesday, if you haven't heard it, go to the vital files on any place where you can listen to podcasts and listen to Tuesday's episode right off the bat.

[00:01:19]

I want to say this. Nothing that was asked of me during that podcast did I feel ambushed on. I knew pretty much what Nic wanted to talk about. We talked before the podcast. He gave me a heads up.

[00:01:30]

I was fine with it. I said I'd talk about anything. So the topics themselves absolutely didn't have any problem with. Everything else regarding the podcast. I'm very disappointed. It's the best way I can describe it. I'm disappointed. Last Sunday on my Live with Ashleigh, there were three points in particular that I made that I was telling you people on what to expect in the podcast and I want to give anything away.

[00:01:59]

But hinted at a few things and the three things I think that I said, and I know that I said we're number one, Nick and I are just never going to see eye to eye on certain topics in the bachelor world. That's as clear as day now if it wasn't already. Number two, I also kept saying when Ashley asked how the podcast went. I just kept saying it's it's interesting for sure. And number three, the last thing I harped on was that when I do a podcast as a host, I remember pretty much how things go.

[00:02:32]

Lay out what I want to talk about. And when it's over, I'm like, OK, I got a general sense of how it went. When I'm being interviewed, especially for two hours. Sometimes you don't remember every word you say or whatnot. And like, it's not like I blacked out or anything, but you talk to someone for two hours, you know, recalling everything I said or how things went, it just isn't easy. It's a different.

[00:03:01]

It's different being on the receiving end of being the interviewee rather than the interviewer. So I wanted to today to run down all the topics Nick and I talked about, all the things you heard us discuss and just completely disagree on and dive into them or dive into Nick's side, dive into my side and share a little bit more with you where I was coming from since. Well. But, you know, after sitting on this for 48 hours. I've just decided I'm going to let the podcast speak for itself.

[00:03:37]

I've read all your emails, I've read all your Twitter and DMS to me. I've read all the mentions under my tweet from Tuesday promoting the podcast, I read all the mentions under next tweet from Tuesday promoting the podcast. I've seen the comments under Niks YouTube video of the podcast. I've been sent screenshots of what people are saying in the Vile Files Facebook group. You know, I've seen the response on Reddit, believe it or not. You all heard the podcast.

[00:04:07]

And if you've read anything on the Internet about that podcast in the last 48 hours, you know what the overwhelming majority feels. That's enough for me. I don't need to pile on. As a podcast, this is my one hundred and ninety first podcast today. I can count on less than one hand how many times I've done a podcast where I didn't have more than a handful of of negative comments and I'm not saying like, oh, my gosh, I'm the greatest podcasts or ever.

[00:04:35]

Certainly I'm not. And certainly I've made mistakes. And certainly I feel like certain podcasts went a certain route that I didn't think they were going to go or I wish I would have asked this or I wish I would have followed up on that answer, whatever the case may be.

[00:04:48]

But I can count on a less than one hand. How many times after a podcast came out, I was given, you know, more than a few. Hey, I didn't really like that or guess whatever the case may be. Didn't like question you asked. Didn't like the tone of it.

[00:05:04]

Just it hasn't happened, which I guess is a good thing. The reaction to Tuesday's podcast can be chalked up to whatever you want to chalk it up to. But not one, five or even 10 or even 20. But hundreds of people are all saying the same thing. And giving specific examples of why they felt a certain way about the podcast. Maybe re-evaluate what happened. I know I absolutely would. But that's me. The biggest thing I took from this podcast.

[00:05:45]

Well, two things. Number one, Nick really doesn't know much about me, my sight or what I do, do I expect Nick Viall to recite interviews I've done or read every word that I write?

[00:05:58]

Absolutely not.

[00:06:01]

But just having a better general idea about your guest, his past and what he's done would have been a nice start.

[00:06:12]

I mean. You heard the stuff about Jenna. Where I. He asked me something that I regret and I said absolutely the DNA stuff and, you know. It's clear listening to that back. Nic knew the bare bones minimum of the Jena situation. And the only reason I bring the Jena situation up in particular is because when we recorded on Thursday or Friday of last week, Kemmerer what day it was. But on Saturday, Nick texted me and I want to read you this text.

[00:06:46]

It said, When you realized you got the Jena thing wrong, did you give it as much attention on your site as when you covered the false claims?

[00:06:57]

Well, other than. Deleting every tweet I ever said about Jenna, deleting everything I wrote on my website about Jenna. And having a hour and a half conversation with her on my podcast. Yeah, I'd say give it attention. He did know. I don't know, maybe you should have.

[00:07:22]

The second point I want to make, one of the things the second point that I took from the podcast was it's clear now to me after listening to the podcast and this sentiment has been put out by numerous others, hundreds, if you want to be exact.

[00:07:36]

Nick brought me on his podcast to try and make me look bad. And get his gotcha moment and and judging by the five minute segment at the end of the show, after I was already off the line and he and his producer basically openly mocked how the interview went and just had a giggle fest. About me and my answers to me. To me, my opinion, you could hear it in his voice that he thought he absolutely destroyed that interview. And well.

[00:08:11]

The exact opposite happened. And that's what I'm really disappointed in. Yes, I was aware we were going to dress things I've said and done to him over the years, but not really in the manner in which he went about it. So the final thing I want to say about this particular podcast is something that Nic addressed in those in those last five minutes. Where he basically said he forgot to ask me a question and that question was he was just kind of talking out loud, but he's like, I really wanted to know this.

[00:08:41]

And I guess he forgot to ask me. But since he asked it on the podcast and he said, hey, you know, listen to reality, Steve, on Thursday, he's going to give his reaction.

[00:08:54]

He asked me, why are you so adamant about biting the hand that feeds you the only thing the Bachelor franchise has done to reality, Steve, is making money. He also then went on to say he's covered Big Brother, Survivor love is blind, too hot to handle. I'm guessing he's probably covered that. I'm also guessing maybe I'm wrong. His traffic on his website has a bump on anything bachelor related. If that show were to go off the air, I got to assume it would affect his bottom line.

[00:09:28]

This goes back to my first point when I said I took two things away from this podcast again. I don't think Nick understands me, my website or my business model. To say, why are you so adamant about biting the hand that feeds you and just sit there and laugh about it with your producer? Biting the hand that feeds you would mean like let's just say Chris Harrison just started trashing the Bachelor franchise and they fired him. What would everyone's reaction be?

[00:10:00]

What a moron. He works for these people and he's trashing them. No wonder you got fired. Like, dude, don't bite the hand that feeds you. How am I biting the hand that feeds me? I'm basically, I don't know, revealing the hand that feeds me because my whole sight and yes, you are very correct, The Bachelor franchise has made me money, but it's made me money based on what I do, which is spoiled snark and give inside information.

[00:10:29]

That's all I've made my money on. He doesn't know what I do. He really doesn't know, and it became evident listening to that. Biting the hand that feeds me is so not that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. I've always done this, this is how I've always made my money. How many times have you guys heard me over the years say I don't spoil the show and snark about the show and tell you inside information about the show so you won't watch?

[00:11:08]

I'm giving you a way to watch the show differently, which you guys appreciate. Biting the hand that feeds me, they don't pay me. I'm wondering if Nick knows that that company has sued me twice. I'm certainly not biting the hand that feeds me. The podcast speaks for itself. So let's just jump into the clear stuff that came out yesterday. I had no idea I was going to wake up at six thirty yesterday morning and ABC had released 42 men for last season.

[00:11:48]

And I had to immediately go to my computer and go to work. But yeah, if you haven't seen it, go check my Twitter, go check my Instagram story. Go check my Instagram. Feed, it's all on there, so the break. Let's go over a little bit of the statistics. The breakdown is they released 42 guys. I'm going to repeat it again. Those 42 guys are not who's going to be on the show. They clearly brought out way more guys than will eventually be on.

[00:12:15]

Do we know how many are going to be on? No, we don't. But we know I think only one season in the show's history had ever has has ever had over more than 30, I think one season at 35.

[00:12:23]

So a lot of those guys are backups or alternates or felons, whatever you want to call it. They're just there in case something goes wrong with somebody else.

[00:12:30]

But so. Forty two guys in the initial cast that they released back in March, they released thirty two guys of those thirty to seventeen of the now 42 were the same 17 guys got brought back from that initial 32, so 15 didn't. So that means they introduced us to twenty five new guys yesterday. I had already had ten of them.

[00:12:52]

So from the time I woke up until about 1:00 in the afternoon when I finished, I had to find fifteen guys first and last names and with the help of a few others, thank you for your help.

[00:13:01]

We were able to do that. So you have everybody's first and last name and you have everybody's Instagram account on my page.

[00:13:09]

The one thing that I did screw up on is I called Zach. John called Zach Jackson. Zach Johnson. His name is Jackson. I don't want to go in and change it because you can't edit photos on Instagram feeds. So, unfortunately. That'll have to do. I can probably change I can change my insurance story and my highlights, but yeah, I can't change it on the feet. But his name is Zach Johnson, 37 year old from Yakima, Washington.

[00:13:34]

So it was just funny, you know, you see the overwhelming response on the Internet last night, why are these guys so young? And it's like. You're not Claire. This is Claire's season, not yours. What she has said on numerous occasions, she dates younger. And this show giving them credit. When they recast, they did a hell of a better job than they did the first time around because the first time around of the thirty two guys that they gave us back in March, if covid doesn't happen, Claire goes into a season with 32 guys and nine of them are 30 or older.

[00:14:12]

Now, through this crop of 42, even though we know all 42 are going to be on the show, twenty six of the 42, which is over 60 percent. I think some are over or 30 or over, so they did a much better job. Of casting for her. There's one guy that's 40. Everyone else is thirty nine or less. And but there's plenty to choose from between 30 and 40 years old, she dates younger just because I had so many people, just me saying, oh my God, I would never date this crop.

[00:14:46]

Who cares? Nobody cares who you would date. You're not The Bachelorette. You're not Claire. It's her season, not yours. The other thing that came about was people's guesses for everything, it's just so funny because everybody every season when the pictures come out, it's like, oh my God, this guy's final four. Oh, my God, this guy is going to win. Oh, she's totally going to pick him. I guess because there were so many guys, I probably saw at least twenty five of those guys in some form, way, shape or form, at least 25 of them.

[00:15:18]

Were people that I saw in an email or a Twitter mention, whatever somebody thought that they would win. So that just shows you people don't know anything and they are probably and everyone's got a different taste. Oh, Jack Jackson is going to win. Oh, my God, A.J. is going to win. Oh my God. You know, chasten Nick is going to win, you know, nothing. You're just guessing based off of a headshot. So.

[00:15:49]

But it was interesting because I got so many different guys, it was like, wow, the other thing about those bios is why are the city so wrong? I swear, every time I'm writing one of these Bibles, I'm like, that's not where he lives, then I'm in the same state. Like I think they did for a lot of those guys, I think they wrote the city where they grew up in not where they're currently living, which I don't I don't remember it being this bad in the past.

[00:16:12]

You know, a guy like Ben Smith from Indianapolis, Indiana, has been living in L.A. for a while and has a gym out there. Why are they telling me he lives in Indianapolis, Indiana, probably has nothing to do with Ben Smith and him as a person. The guy is a gym owner in Los Angeles, California. Why would you put Indianapolis, Indiana, even if that's where he's from? All right. Just seems weird.

[00:16:33]

It just seems like they were way more wrong cities than in past that I can remember. But maybe I'm misremembering.

[00:16:41]

I think it was funny. When you look at the pictures overall, you could tell that because they didn't have. You know, they didn't do it all in front of, you know, you know, those high school photos that we usually do, they all have the same background.

[00:16:54]

It's like some of those guys gave them pictures and the show would be like, yeah, we'll use this picture for you. And some of them got down to looking to resort. And they just took the pictures down there because you could clearly tell I mean, I didn't go through all 42 and try and figure out which guys were out looking into it. But there were plenty that those pictures were taken after they arrived last Wednesday or Thursday. They've been taken in the last five days.

[00:17:14]

So. And as for the Instagram portion of it, this cast, as we know, is going to get pared down right now of the 42 guys as of last night, because I'm recording this actually Thursday morning. Which is why it's up a little bit late, the cast is going to get pared down right now of those 40 to guys, 10 guys currently have their Instagram's public and 30 to don't. I don't know if you can even read into that, if that means anything, but Collins, Youngblood, XOMA, Jason Foster, Jason Nick, Peter Jeanny, Capello's, I'm sorry, I don't pronounce his last name.

[00:17:51]

Brendan Morais, Zach Jackson, Spencer Robertson, Robbie Stal and Tianlang. Those are the 10 guys that have their ECGs currently still set at public as of last night. I don't I don't think it means like, oh, if he's public, that means he's off the show or he's an alternate or whatever.

[00:18:09]

I don't think it means that at all. I just think that we see this every season, people just seem to forget it every season. Yeah, they tell you to shut off your Instagram or either go to private or some people deactivate and some people just leave it on. So I don't think there's anything to read into there. But when I did the when I looked through all 42 Instagram accounts last night, those 10 guys are public and 32 of them are set to private.

[00:18:32]

So. There's that, so, yeah, I. About 20 minutes in. Look, I know you probably wanted me to go scorched earth on Tuesday's podcast and just absolutely drag Nick and I'm just not going to do it.

[00:18:50]

And the reason is because I think the podcast speaks for itself and you have all spoken, you've all let your feelings known about how that podcast went. I don't think there's anything more I need to add. Let's get going. Podcast number one, 91. Also want to talk to you about hydrant summers here, it's crazy hot outside, especially in Texas. We all know you got to drink more water, but by the time you drink it, feel thirsty.

[00:19:17]

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[00:19:21]

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[00:19:52]

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[00:20:19]

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[00:20:47]

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[00:21:13]

All right, let's bring her in. She's a former casting producer for The Bachelor and Bachelorette working on five recent seasons. It is Jazzy Collins. Jazzy, how are you? Thanks for coming on.

[00:21:23]

I'm good. How are you happy to be here? I'm I'm great.

[00:21:28]

Obviously, you've been in the news recently, The Bachelor News in Bachelor Nation News because of an Instagram post from three weeks ago where you pretty much laid out an open letter to ABC, The Bachelor and The Bachelorette about your time on the show, how you felt casting went. And we'll get to that in a second. But I. I kind of just want to start out with your background in how long you've been involved in casting for other shows, how you got hooked on to Bachelor and Bachelorette.

[00:22:00]

Tell us a little bit about your background and all this.

[00:22:03]

Yeah, for sure. So I started in casting about six and a half, seven years ago. I actually kind of fell into it. I first just started off like playing on, you know, a whole bunch of network shows and playing on some commercials. And I went in for an interview and then they were like, you know, you'd be great for casting, would you be interested? And I was like, Yeah, sure, why not?

[00:22:26]

I needed a job at the time and, you know, a little bit more of a steady paycheck. And then I ended up falling at the casting. I worked on a whole bunch of game show that worked on America's Got Talent. And then one of my friends of mine actually was telling me that Bachelor was hiring. And I was like, wow, like to have, you know, a part of being on a show that's like so huge would be amazing.

[00:22:50]

So Clyde had an interview and then, boom, here, here I was. And I was working on The Bachelor. I had the the privilege of working on it for about five seasons. And, you know, I rapped on it in early twenty. Nineteen. OK, so five seasons.

[00:23:07]

And you said you started your first season was Rachel's, correct? Yes, correct. Yeah. So that means you basically cast for, let's see, Rachel then. Ari season was next, then Becca Colton and Hannah, those five. Correct.

[00:23:19]

OK, so, yes, the recent five seasons, excluding excluding Peter's. OK, so you get you get involved in that. And, you know, just to be clear, you and I talked about this off air, but explain to everybody who might think that you are, you know, a producer that is on set or anything like that.

[00:23:37]

Explain exactly what your role was as a casting producer for sure.

[00:23:41]

So as my role is very different from a cast producer that is on set, a lot of people immediately think casting and cast producers are the same thing. They're very different cast producers on set are the ones that are actually producing the cast, you know, the things that you see on TV. While myself as a casting producer, I'm their first point of contact. I speak to them, I get their applications and I talk to them on the phone.

[00:24:06]

I do the actual interviews with them and then they get moved forward in the casting process.

[00:24:12]

OK, so in talking to a lot of former contestants on the podcast over the years, one of the things I've always brought up was how did you get.

[00:24:20]

On the show, like, where did the friend nominate you, did a family member nominate you? How is the process for you? And I seemed like more and more people were getting recruited and very few were the people that showed up at open casting calls, at malls and stuff. It was more along the lines of maybe a former contestant said, I have a friend that would be great for the show. And immediately they are kind of pushed forward to production as long as they pass their eye test or whatever, whatever, whatever test they had in their head.

[00:24:54]

And as long as they were white, pretty much. You know, this is this is something that I've always been curious about. So how did you when you were casting people? I've heard stories about casting producers coming up to people at bars in L.A., New York, major cities like that. How did you go about casting for this show?

[00:25:13]

Yeah, for this show, it was a slew of everything. We had people that were nominated. We had people that applied and we looked through every single application. So if you actually do apply, we do look at it. And, you know, we do have our casting call. We do look at all those people. And then same with just, you know, we'll be at a bar. I have a card, a business card, and I'll go up to someone, say, you know, hey, you have a great look.

[00:25:38]

Would you be interested in doing reality TV? And I recruit people that way. I do that for almost all the shows that I currently work on. But The Bachelor, you know, if you see someone, you might as well jump on it. And yeah, there's people that I've met at like jewelry counter and like Macy's, I've met people, you know, at a bar. It's basically anywhere you could see someone if you get spotted, you know, we we might as well reach out to them and talk to them and see if they'd be interested.

[00:26:07]

That's interesting. And I you know, you talk about all these places that you have actually recruited people or seen people out and said, hey, would you be interested? Is there anyone in particular that the audience that are fans of The Bachelor and The Bachelorette who maybe lasted a little bit on the show that you remember? Wow. That was a random place that I found them.

[00:26:26]

Anybody stick out of your head? I try to think, oh, I don't you know what? My favorite person, but they didn't make the show was very upset about them. I, I saw them like a tequila bar in like in Santa Monica. And I came up to them, had a whole conversation with him. I was very bummed he didn't end up making the show, but he was so he was the one that I would have been like I would have loved to see on the show.

[00:26:57]

But unfortunately he didn't make it. But that was my favorite one that I've ever found.

[00:27:00]

Did he not make it because he just said I wasn't interested or he went through the process and he just ultimately wasn't selected.

[00:27:07]

He went through the process and ultimately wasn't selected. It was actually for Rachel. Unbelievable. OK, yeah.

[00:27:14]

So here are a couple like casting fun questions for you that I mean, maybe you maybe you remember him off the top of your head or not.

[00:27:23]

Who did you think of people that you cast that ended up getting on the show? Who did?

[00:27:29]

Was there anyone that you thought would really go far and didn't and then vice versa? Someone you thought, OK, they seemed like a good match, but I don't know how far we're going to get on the show and then lasted a while.

[00:27:40]

Oh, that's a good question. I when I first saw Garrett, I knew he would go far 100 percent. I saw him and I was like, you just feel so like like almost like a dad and you're going to, like, hug him. It's kind of like a teddy bear. So I always thought that he would go far for a season. Unfortunate what happened after the fact. But, you know, I always saw him going far and I always saw him as a match for Becca.

[00:28:10]

It's just unfortunate what happened. But and then I I loved Crystal when when she first came in the room, when I first met her, she was wearing this beautiful pink dress. She looked like Elwood. She had two dogs walking into the casting office. And it was hilarious. And I was like, homegirl is going to make it far. Like she is great. She did not have that voice. So that voice came later down the line.

[00:28:37]

I don't know where that came from. But she is those are the two that I was most definitely like absolutely loved them. I think there was also like during during harvest season, I remember seeing Mike and I was like, he he had like that smile that was just like, whoa, like, how can you not, like, love this guy? And I also was like, I can see him going far. And even if he I thought he was going to be a bachelor when I first met him, I was like, he has that bachelor star quality.

[00:29:11]

I could totally see him getting further down the line and possibly selected. And then he wasn't and I was bombed.

[00:29:18]

Of course, there's another one that I was interested in, which was so, like I said, the five seasons you covered with Rachel and Rebecca Colton and Hannah, you didn't know Ari when he went through casting on Emily season work.

[00:29:31]

So dealing with dealing with those four, Rachel, Becca, Colton and Hannah, from the time that you kind of knew them during the casting process until the time that they maybe got their own season, is there anyone that, I don't know, maybe changed the most or from the time you first laid eyes on them to where you see them now? Is there anyone that's the most different could be in a good way?

[00:29:56]

Yeah. Yeah. You know, Colton was always like Colton, so he wasn't much of a change. He was always one of those people that would go after what they want as much as they can. And as you know. But Hanna, when I first met her, she seems a lot more timid than she is now. I think being in the camera and getting that that limelight in front of her changed her, you know, a little bit to the point where she's a lot more confident than she is now.

[00:30:27]

I think she was just very pageantry. When I first met her, she was like, you know, stick to her script. And then she kind of evolved into more of, I hate to say it, more human, because now she is, you know, more confident who she is. And she also is just a lot more likable as a person now. But, you know, I also saw what happened on Instagram with her, you know, rapping the N-word.

[00:30:52]

And then I was like, you know, here we go all over again.

[00:30:58]

Yeah, but but yeah, it's funny that you say that because I think that's what a lot of people thought of Hannah the first time around it was.

[00:31:05]

We knew she came from the pageant world and she did seem a little rehearsed and definitely seemed a little green, like I remember her the first one on one of the season on her birthday, and she couldn't even think of a toast to give to Colton and. Right.

[00:31:18]

And then remember when they announced there's The Bachelorette, when they were live on the after the final rose, it was in they brought out her first five guys. She was terrible because it was the first time she was alive.

[00:31:29]

And then the response after that was, how is this?

[00:31:32]

She can even formulate a sentence and she doesn't know what to say. How is she going to be The Bachelorette? And then now look at her. I mean, she's yeah, she did that. And then she won Dancing with the Stars.

[00:31:41]

She clearly I totally see that when you say she's a lot more confident now for sure. She went through some some trials recently and you brought it up.

[00:31:50]

So I might as well go there with it when you saw what happened with Hannah and what she did and the two weeks of laying low and kind of not saying anything and then finally giving her.

[00:32:02]

Just tell me what you thought about what she did. And then when she gave her apology, how did it make you feel? Did you buy it? Are you buying what she's selling post apology. Yeah, when I first saw the video, I was following her on Instagram at that point, so I was clicking her stories and I saw that she was live and stuff and I was like, well, you know, people let me see if she's going to say, because I know the song.

[00:32:29]

And I was like, oh, there we go. And when she did and then her friend called her out, I was like, oh, no, here we go. Like, people are going to record this if they haven't been recording it already, like anything that you put out into the public, you have to make sure that you can stand by it or be able to apologize in a great manner. The fact that she disappeared and didn't say anything for so long that irritated me.

[00:32:56]

I was like, you know, I understand you did something that was wrong. No one should be saying the N-word, period. If you are not black, like I'm I don't care if you're Latina. I don't care. I just don't think it's something that you should be saying. That's my personal opinion. So even if you're wrapping it in a song, I do not think you should be saying the word has basically become something that black people have taken control of.

[00:33:28]

We have the opportunity now to take something that had such a negative connotation and spin it into a light where we could actually control this word and we put it into our art as an extra form of expression. And when you are taking that word and singing it as a white person, you are changing the connotation again. You're making it dirty. So when Hannah said that and I don't care if you're rapping in a song, it was disgusting. And I was really, really, really disappointed in her.

[00:33:59]

For someone that was so trained in the past as a pageant girl, I was shocked that she would just go and do that. And I was just like, you know, what if she's doing that on live, what is she doing behind closed doors? And then the fact that she came out with that apology, I, I it always just feels kind of like a weird Band-Aid situation to me. You know, it never felt like genuine. Why did it take so long to say something when people were like, I need to sit and reflect?

[00:34:29]

I'm like, yes, but it shouldn't take you a week to do it, you know, give yourself 12 hours, release a statement, maybe talk to some people, talk to, you know, if you have your friends with Rachel. I think that the conversation you should have had, you know, if you're, you know, any other black friends that she may have, is that the conversation should have had with someone that I would have actually gotten offended by it rather than your white friends and then releasing something?

[00:34:55]

Yeah, I mean, it was it was certainly two weeks was the actual it was two weeks to the day that she did it. She came with the apology. So it was longer than expected. So and at the point it came out, it was just like, OK, you've now apologized. It's just words. Let's see how you follow up. And I think she has done a good job in terms of what she has been putting out on her Instagram post.

[00:35:17]

Right. With on the. Black Lives Matter stuff, she has talked about some things, she has talked about seeing a therapist and admitted to being just basically white, privileged. She had no one.

[00:35:31]

She had no idea the you know, the background on that word and the extent of that word. And honestly, until this has happened in this country in the last month, I think a lot of us haven't really experienced and now we're getting this kind of a warning. And I think it's I mean, I think it's been good. And I I applaud her because I know it couldn't have been easy. I do think I was saying it at the time.

[00:35:50]

She needs to come out sooner. I get that she wants to take some time and she's getting so much heat. But the more silent she gives, it's just giving her fans more reason to jump on other people who are saying, hey, you need to come out and say something. But I think she's doing a good job. I think she's done a good job since then. And, you know, obviously, the whole thing with Rachel that went down with her could have been she could have nipped it at the bud on the very next day when Rachel said, let's go live together.

[00:36:15]

And that didn't happen.

[00:36:16]

Right. Right. You know, but kind of moving on from Hannah and getting into what you did and what you posted on on your Instagram three weeks ago, kind of again, I'm not going to reread it to everybody, but tell everybody exactly pretty much what you said and what you had to deal with as a casting producer.

[00:36:39]

You know, they've always kind of stood behind the fact that, well, we just don't get a lot of black applicants. That's why we don't have a lot of black contestants. And my response to them has always been, well, why would a black person apply to the show? They've seen they've seen what happens there.

[00:36:53]

They're marginalized. There's one or two of them every season. This show does not represent their life and you know, their dating life.

[00:37:00]

So explain exactly what you kind of went through with that.

[00:37:04]

Yeah. So I, I wrote this open letter about three weeks ago and I just basically explained my experience during the casting process. You know, I was brought on during Rachel Lindsy season. I was very, very excited because of the amount of diversity they were trying to bring. I thought this was a step in the direction of something that was going to be amazing for the back for bachelor history. And that wasn't the case. Right after that, we went straight to our season and it was just back to status quo.

[00:37:38]

You know, everyone was basically white that we were attacking. Everyone was either ethnically ambiguous, their hair, that black women were not allowed to have natural hair. They weren't being considered. And I was very frustrated because I was the only black person in that casting office so no one could ever see what or experience what I was going through because they just thought, you know, this is normal. This is what we've been doing forever. We only did this diverse casting because we had to.

[00:38:10]

And that was the biggest issue for me. So, you know, obviously I was continuing working there as much as I can, because not only, you know, having that's on your resume is fantastic. It's also like I was on the inside. I had the opportunity to promote change from with inside. And unfortunately, I wasn't able to do that. You know, I was shut out for most of the conversation to hopefully promote diversity or I was considered it being called aggressive.

[00:38:41]

So I felt alone in the situation. I had no way of being able to promote diversity within because they didn't want to change. So it was time for me to go. You know what? Let's let's move on. It's time for me to work on a different show. And I left after the five seasons. But my biggest problem was the women with natural hair. They never had anyone with braids or, you know, an afro or locks or anything like that.

[00:39:12]

And when black women right now are trying to reclaim that beauty for decades now, you know, everyone thinks that straight hair is beautiful and that's not the case. You know, black women are really trying, you know, to be themselves without having to, you know, conform to what Eurocentric beauty standards are. And I think I remember I think Rachel had her braids done for I think it was like a wedding or something. And they made her change it back to like a weave for her to be on TV.

[00:39:47]

And when I heard that, I was just like my mind was blown. I was like, that's a perfect opportunity. Rachel's already been in the public eye. Like, why are you forcing her to change back to something that she isn't, you know, what's wrong with braids? So, yeah, I was that the amount of white washing that bachelor has on the inside is just absolutely insane. Everyone that works there for the most part is white, like ninety percent of them and you know.

[00:40:20]

I felt like if they needed to bring in, you know, one Asian, one black girl for a bachelor season, it felt very tokenized, like they were just only doing it because they had to they were doing it as like a quota for ABC rather than doing it because they wanted to. I totally agree.

[00:40:39]

And I think, you know, you even laid it out in what you said. Your casting director is white, your executive in charge is white. Know you can even further. Your host is white. You're the creator of the show is white. The you know, Martin Hilton is white. I mean, you just go down the list of the main people on that show, the people that we know through the years, even though the average fan doesn't know a lot of the producers, you know, Alonzo, the one that sticks out just because of, you know, his beard and kind of this guy that looks like, you know, I've always said he kind of looks like he's homeless, but, you know, he's turned certain around.

[00:41:11]

It's turned around his life. So I applaud him for that. He's been sober for a few years now, but he's he's the one guy that if you said who's a lawn to an average, they might know who he is. I don't think anybody else, any other producer on the show, a casual fan. So, yeah, it's it's a very white show.

[00:41:27]

And then you go look back on 40 years and, you know, this campaign, that batch diversity started up on the on Instagram, which was 40 seasons, eight years, one black lead. And, you know, now we're at two with Matt James coming up after Claire's season, which clearly was done, even though if they want to deny it and they say that they had Matt on their radar and look, Matt might have been the bachelor even if he did go on Claire's season.

[00:41:54]

I bet you they did have him on their radar.

[00:41:56]

Yeah, but let's say I mean, let's call it what it is. It was put it was pushed forward because of the Black Lives Matter movement that's going on now. Exactly. And how much heat they've been getting. But like Matt said when he was announced on GMA, like, you know, it's better to get it right now than it's never the wrong time to do the right thing. And right. And if it's and if they cast Matt and they have their first black lead because of pressure, hey, great.

[00:42:19]

They needed one. I just I didn't I didn't think that there was any way. And I was saying this the Sunday before Matt was announced on Friday, I said, I don't think there's any way this this show announces a white guy for their next bachelor. They will get crucified if they do. Yeah.

[00:42:36]

What's going on now? And you know, the way they did it with Matt. And so suddenly they didn't make a big. You know who wrote about it, because it was just all of a sudden Friday morning, we find out like usually they promote that stuff and all that. Right. But, you know, here we are.

[00:42:51]

You know, you went through it and like you said when you spoke up, like, did you ever when you say you spoke up, what exactly did you do or what exactly did you say where some people were like a jazzy calm down a bit or whatever were you called aggressive?

[00:43:06]

What were you trying to put out there?

[00:43:09]

Yeah. So a lot of time. For example, I would ask, you know, why don't we have a black bachelor? And a lot of the times they would respond, we don't have the right black bachelor. And I would ask, what does that mean? And they immediately go on the defensive. And I was like, I'm just asking a question. I'm not asking, you know, you need to put a black bachelor on today. I was asking, what is the right black bachelor mean?

[00:43:36]

Do they do they have to look a certain way? Do they have to be biracial? Do they have to have mainly white friends? Like this is the question that I asked. And I was immediately like they were put on the defensive about it, which was ridiculous.

[00:43:52]

It's a normal question, I think, that anyone should have, especially if you had all white bachelor is, you know, what was the sense that you got from them as to what their definition of the right bachelor black bachelor was?

[00:44:06]

I think it's someone that is. Like, I feel like for the most part, most people, when they see a black man, they are immediately on the defensive. They think they're a little bit more I hate to say it, they're like scary to them. So I think they wanted someone that is either biracial or they wanted someone that came from no humble beginnings. Like he's he's been just doing well, maybe came from middle class. Someone that has, you know, is just clean because they didn't want any sort of controversy surrounding the black bachelor that were to come out, for example.

[00:44:53]

Like I what I thought was very interesting was Eric that was on Rachel Season is from Baltimore. Yeah. He had he had only spoken like a swagger and was a little bit not BATCHELLER standards for the most part. And, you know, Eric and I, you know, he was one of the first people I spoke to when I was casting. And I absolutely loved him. I loved Eric. And I was so excited when he actually ended up getting cast.

[00:45:21]

But they would never make someone like him The Bachelor because he doesn't speak like, you know, that James does. I hope you understand what I'm saying. It sounds terrible, but that's the situation.

[00:45:36]

No, when you were just describing when I asked you what your what you thought their definition of the right black bachelor would be and you and you started reeling off what you thought it was, I was like, you're you're basically describing Matt James.

[00:45:49]

You realize that, you know, I mean, that's and that's so their first black bachelor does come does have a white mother and doesn't have a father that I don't think is in the picture because I've never heard him talk about his father. He hasn't been to many interviews, but I haven't seen a picture of his father in any of his Instagram's right on Mother's Day. He are on Father's Day. He put out a picture of him and his mother saying Happy Father's Day.

[00:46:15]

So clearly his but clearly his father was not in his life or a major part of his life.

[00:46:20]

So, yeah, I mean, that's what you described. And I, I absolutely understand what you're saying when you say they wouldn't make Eric big or The Bachelor because of just how he is, which there's nothing wrong with how he is.

[00:46:31]

But for this show that that's not what they do. Basically. Yes. Or at least.

[00:46:36]

Yeah, I mean, that's that's one of the things need to change. Like what would have been wrong, like if you I get what they're saying, but what would have been wrong if you would have made it bigger. The Bachelor.

[00:46:47]

Because literally nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing would have been wrong with it wouldn't he. Because he didn't sound like the previous, you know, thirty five bachelors at that time or, you know, Leeds at that time.

[00:46:59]

I don't you know, that's that's where it becomes a very small minded thing on their behalf. Yes. They, they have this, you know.

[00:47:10]

Oh, this works for us. We're just going to keep doing it. Well yeah.

[00:47:13]

My work for you and you might keep doing it. The ratings might be great, but you're very close minded. You're very.

[00:47:19]

Yes. Not open to very open to very many things.

[00:47:22]

You know, you're not diverse at all. Yes. You saw I'm sure you saw what the producers put out, the statement that you did. Yeah.

[00:47:35]

What was your thoughts on that on that statement. Oh, my gosh.

[00:47:39]

Clearly written by like a lawyer. It was so it was so plain and such a Band-Aid. I was like, OK, like, you're doing it because you have to. And it was just very clean cut and straight to the point I wanted them to know, like, tell me or and tell the world, what are you doing in response to this to actually fix your problem? There was I don't I'm sure you've never heard of this blogger, but there's this blogger, Emily Schoeman.

[00:48:11]

She works at Cupcakes and Cashmere is the name of her blog. She did a like an Instagram post outlining how many people in her office were black, indigenous, you know, Latin X and said, I have a problem here. I have zero in these categories. And then you switch to the other side and it said, here's what I'm doing to fix this. And that's kind of the response that I wanted from ABC and from, you know, the executive producers would be like, yeah, we have a problem.

[00:48:45]

We only employed ten black people. Here is how we're going to fix it. And they still haven't done that. So I'm disappointed.

[00:48:52]

Yeah, I mean, you I'm looking at their statement right now. You know, we acknowledge our responsibility for the lack of representation of people of color, blah, blah, blah. We are taking positive steps to expand diversity in our cast, in our staff and most importantly, in the relationships we show on television.

[00:49:07]

OK, what are those steps like to just. It is we're taking positive steps. What are they how are you? Exactly. And, you know, I guess in a way. We're not going to know until the season starts filming, which is shortly. Are there black producers now on the show?

[00:49:24]

I don't I don't know. Maybe they've added some in the last couple of weeks since this is a handout, we don't technically know.

[00:49:30]

But I don't I don't all of a sudden think 25 percent of their crew is going to be black.

[00:49:35]

That would be. And that would probably not going to happen. Right? I just yeah. I total agreement with you there of OK, you can say it, but what are your steps? That's a very generic statement to say we are taking positive steps to expand diversity in our cast and crew and saying, OK, well, did you can you can you announce a higher like, hey, we've brought on so-and-so from this show that's worked on great shows in the past and we think they could be beneficial to our staff.

[00:50:05]

I don't know. They've never announced they've never announced production hires in the past. But it's almost like maybe they need to now because we're still not going to they might add five producers for the season that are black.

[00:50:16]

We're not going to know how are we going to know? We don't see the producers. So who is who is holding them accountable for?

[00:50:24]

Is there diversity in their cast? And we'll see the cast and we'll see how black people get cast or BIPAC get cast. But I don't know how many I don't know how many production people are are now on the show. Have you heard anything? I don't know. Behind the scenes of. Oh, they did in the last couple of weeks.

[00:50:42]

They've brought on a couple of people from I heard that they're in talks. I saw post and, you know, on a couple of groups that I'm in on Facebook that they're like, you know, looking to hire more, you know, producers. I don't know if they're actually doing it, because here's the thing. You know, you could say, hey, we're looking to more hire more producers and resuming will come to the door, but you don't see what they actually look like.

[00:51:05]

So, yeah, there might be a black girl named Kate, and you're going to go, oh, that person's white when they look at the resume. So they might not call that person. So, you know, you have to make sure if you're actually going to be hiring people of color that, you know, you're actually going through all of, you know, their resumes, speaking to people, maybe seeing references and talking to them about it, bringing them in to do some interviews and stuff and actually, you know, going through the process correctly, because, you know, that's hard.

[00:51:36]

Like one of my, you know, a friend of mine, you know, her name is Sammy. And you immediately think, oh, that must be another white woman, but it's not the black girl. So, like, how are you going to actually know that you're hiring black, which I think will be a very interesting conversation for them to have. Yeah, but yeah, we'll see. But my question is, I would love to know if they actually spent the time to recap class season because they did.

[00:52:05]

They had, you know what, like three months between covid shut down. The first cast was announced and then they are re filming this, trying to fill up with, like the next couple of weeks. Did they actually recast? And if they did recast, was it people of color that they added into the mix or just older people because this whole thing blew up three weeks ago? Yeah. So did they really have time to actually recast people of color into that cast?

[00:52:35]

And I would love to know that because they haven't released you know, here's the new cast for Claytor season. You know, we're all we always look look forward to seeing that. And we didn't see that this time around.

[00:52:45]

Yeah. So I can tell you we're out with that. OK, so they definitely recast because some of those guys just couldn't make it back four months later. And some and some after all the shit that they got, just probably told some guys, hey, we're not going to use you because, you know, there was a twenty three year old on her initial cast, which was a joke.

[00:53:04]

Right. What I know is I can't tell you the exact time because the cast that they released back in March when they were set to film was 32 guys that I believe six or seven were black, but only six of her thirty two excuse me, nine of her, 32, which was less than a third of her cast, was thirty or older.

[00:53:27]

So that was that was horrible casting in and of itself. Like they almost got saved by covid.

[00:53:33]

I mean, you hate to say that, but if if Kopa doesn't happen, this season has already done filming, we're watching it right now.

[00:53:39]

And she had nine guys out of thirty two to choose from that, I would say, or even remotely age appropriate. She's a 39 year old woman. She's not interested in someone that's twenty seven. I don't care how mature he may come across. She needed bright eyes. I mean you did Rachel lindsy season and I went back and when I saw Claire's nine out of thirty two, I was like, well, wait a second, let me go back to Rachel's because I thought Rachel had a lot.

[00:54:03]

Rachel had seventeen out of thirty men that were thirty or older and she was only thirty one.

[00:54:09]

So exactly. And clearly bent over backwards for her to give her at least an age appropriate group.

[00:54:15]

And I know she had over. Ten black guys on her season, so, I mean, right now I know guys are getting recast. I don't know how many of those 32 to a recast. I know of I know of at least five that aren't going to be on for whatever reason. And I have heard about other guys that are arriving today. I have I have six. And one of them is black of the six that I know. So, I mean, look, maybe the other six that I don't have are all black.

[00:54:45]

Probably not. But I mean, my guess is we're probably looking at, you know, it's not like she's going to have two black guys because she had six or seven in the original.

[00:54:56]

She'll probably have five to eight.

[00:54:58]

But I think her recasting is more about age appropriate because they were getting killed for having.

[00:55:05]

Yeah. Nine guys. And look, you know, she had nine guys that were 30 or older, but of those nine, I say three or four were right at thirty or thirty one, which was still a good eight or nine years younger than her.

[00:55:17]

So.

[00:55:18]

So the ones that I have, there's a couple of thirty sevens, there's a 35 like they're going way more age appropriate for her now. I don't know.

[00:55:26]

You know, again, these guys are being flown out, you know, anybody test positive. They're not obviously getting right. And I know that I know they're flying out way more than the cast because they need to have some backup in case I have six guys test positive.

[00:55:41]

So they have a lot of backups going out there. I don't think these backups know they're going out as backups. I think they're being told you're on and then they're going to be told right the night before.

[00:55:50]

It's you know, we've decided to go in a different direction or whatever like that. Right.

[00:55:54]

We usually tell them. But in your situation with this and when you dealt with, let's say, Raichel season and then on to to Ari's and and beka's and Coltons and Hannas. And you're looking for a particular person, were you were you one that was kind of championing for black contestants of. I really like this black guy or this black girl. Let's do what we can to get her on or you just did not have that much pull to be able to do that.

[00:56:21]

You're just like, hey, I'm just moving them on to the next step. Like you said, I'm just handing them off to her.

[00:56:26]

And they're the ones I yeah, I tried the most I could get the thing, you know, if I did an interview with someone that was, you know, Latina and I absolutely loved her. I championed for her. I championed for Bibiana. I absolutely loved Vivianna, you know, did all her interviews and everything her. And I was like, she would be great. I always got resistance no matter what. It was always like, you know, we'll see, you know?

[00:56:56]

And then they made the decision behind closed doors. It was so as much as I could do behind the scenes, I would do. And I was always pushing diversity as much as I could. I would do a majority of the interviews with people of color.

[00:57:11]

Now, whether or not I was doing it because they forced me to do it or because I wanted to do it, I was doing majority of those interviews, which I mean, which is kind of the point that Rachel has been making in a lot of her posts about, you know, why there needs to be people of color in production. Because when you are a producer on the show and you are trying to get out stories from from a person of color and you're a white person sitting there, they're probably uncomfortable with you.

[00:57:42]

Maybe it's just as much as you might be uncomfortable with them because you can't relate to them in any sort of way.

[00:57:47]

But if a black person is there, they might be able to get something out of them a little bit more and can relate. Yeah. And can relate to them. And that's where Rachel's like, look, these people want to go on and want to see people like themselves on the show, not just, oh, here's another white producer that really doesn't know much about me, my background, what I've dealt with, you know, in my life.

[00:58:08]

And exactly.

[00:58:09]

Literally, I mean, would you say overall I mean, it sounds like it, but I mean, would you say essentially the show has been racist in 40 seasons and 18 years? Is this a racist franchise?

[00:58:26]

I yes, it's a racist franchise. I don't think they realized that they were being racist, but they are the fact that the employees look were mainly white. The you know, the fact that everyone was watching, you know. Yes, their audience was majority white. But, you know, we're in twenty twenty. People want to see color. They want to see curves. They don't want to see a whole bunch of models and pageant girls on bachelor.

[00:58:55]

So you got to change that. And, you know, the people behind the scenes, it's everyone is white and they're sticking to that. That's racism. You know, you have to be more inclusive and not only, you know, people of color, but also people of different sexual orientations. You know, it would be great to have, you know, a trans woman on, you know, the producers staff. You know, why has that never happened?

[00:59:24]

Or, you know, the indigenous person would walk through the door and be on the producing staff. Like there is all this that they can include to get different types of opinions behind closed doors. And that's what's going to help them drive this franchise forward, because eventually it will fizzle out if they're going to continue to do the same thing over and over and over again by twenty, twenty five. You know, majority of these people are going to be watching, are going to be from that younger generation.

[00:59:51]

And the younger generation does not like to all white people. I see they you know, they want to see that diverse cast. They want to see people that look like them on TV. And I always say if I am casting a show and there is not one person in that cast that I can relate to, that means we have a problem. That means we're not doing our job properly. And we need to actually make sure that there is someone on that screen that if you are sitting down with any type of person in any generation, any race, any sexual orientation that they can find someone in that cast that they can relate to.

[01:00:31]

Just out of curiosity, are you were you involved in 08? No, forget it. You didn't because you didn't work. You didn't work. You didn't work.

[01:00:39]

Next season I was going to say no if you knew a good friend of mine who's been on the podcast three times now, Tyler Nolan, if you would cast her if you know I did it.

[01:00:50]

I love Taylor, though. She's she's great. But I did not I did not have the chance to work with her at all.

[01:00:56]

That's right. She was next. For some reason, I was thinking she was already season, that's why. Yeah. So when we go forward on this and when I saw what when I saw your post, I was like. Look, I know how the, you know, kind of the reality TV behind the scenes stuff works, and I was like, I'm I mean, everyone's been very. Like supportive of what you wrote. My thinking was not even knowing.

[01:01:20]

I was like, wow, I wonder, is this going to hurt her in the business? You know, for speaking out like this, I'm wondering, is this like do you have a, you know, a red a red mark against you and like, oh, difficult to deal with because she's going to be speak out on on on issues on her Instagram account. Has this hurt you getting other gigs or.

[01:01:40]

No, no, no. Actually, you know, more people have been reaching out to me since then and they said, I love your stance on, you know, what's going on with The Bachelor. Let's talk about how my company can, you know, move forward in the right direction so we don't have this problem. So it's actually starting a really great conversation that's happening. So very, very happy about that, that people are actually are now taking responsibility for.

[01:02:07]

Yeah. Let me look around my office. Why is everyone white? Let's do something about that.

[01:02:13]

I didn't I'm looking on your Instagram right now. Are you are currently casting for the circle the next season of the Circle, is that correct?

[01:02:20]

I am. Yes, I am.

[01:02:22]

I did not. I know it was one of the new crazes on Netflix. I didn't watch Love is Blind. I didn't watch the circle, but I did watch too hot to handle, which I enjoyed.

[01:02:34]

But I've heard you know, I've heard all about the circle. I don't get it or I don't understand the concept of it. So can you explain the circle to me and to listeners who don't know about the circle? And hey, maybe someone listening right now will want to apply to be on the circle? Yeah, definitely apply.

[01:02:52]

So this show is a social experiment. So each contestant gets put in a room, kind of like Laurentine. And the only way they can speak to the other players is to speak through the circle, which is like a social media device. And they have the opportunity to create a profile for themselves, whether it be themselves or they can be a catfish. And their goal is to basically become the influencer. And the influencer makes the decision whether or not who they want to eliminate in the game.

[01:03:27]

And if you make it all the way to the end, you end up with one hundred thousand dollars.

[01:03:32]

Just so the really cool New Age game, obviously at the end of the show, they actually have the opportunity to meet the people that are behind the profiles, which is super fun, especially if they were capturing the entire time. You know, you can imagine someone playing a grandma and they walk out of the twenty five year old guy. This is super cool.

[01:03:53]

So so this has nothing to do with dating. You're not meeting you're not setting up a profile to possibly impress someone and then meet them and go out with them. This is all about right. OK, so this is all about a social media game. And I know that one. I think I know the guy or I heard of the guy that Joey is the guy that won the first season. So. Yes, that's right.

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OK, yeah. So boiler. Yeah.

[01:04:16]

What. Yeah. For anyone who has watched the first season, Joey wins about that.

[01:04:22]

But yeah I've heard of him and I'm aware of seeing him on Instagram promoting stuff or whatever but yeah. OK, so love is blind is the one where as far as I know you, that's the dating one where you're not seeing them, you're not seeing them yet. You're living in like pods or something like that. You're talking of. Yeah. Okay, gotcha.

[01:04:41]

So can you can you cast multiple shows at one time as a casting producer, do you have to just work on one or you just can hop around any show you can, you know, work on multiple shows at once.

[01:04:52]

It's just really hard. I myself, I like to only work on one show at one because I want to put my all into it and be completely focused on one show. So I am only working on this circle right now. And then because I'm freelance, I can hop on the show after we're done casting, which is beautiful because you don't get bored of the show that you were doing.

[01:05:12]

If you work for years, you know, have you ever had any interest in going to the production side of reality TV? I know you said you worked as a play on other shows and game shows.

[01:05:23]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I would be I would be open to producing on set. It's just the hours are just incredibly ridiculous. Yeah. So I'm spoiled. I'm spoiled on the casting side. I'm working like a nine to five, but you know, I'm working in production and 12 to 14 hours so I would be open to it for sure. Gotcha.

[01:05:44]

And just a just a few other things in terms of casting from, you know, the shows that you did with. Let's see. Ah, I'm just off the top of my head. I'm just trying to think of who were the black guys on Becky's season? Who were the black women women on Kolten season.

[01:06:01]

There weren't many. Yeah, I'm totally drawing a blank. Who were the black guys on hand said, well, we know Mike Johnson. And, you know, you mentioned you had talked about him earlier.

[01:06:13]

He was someone that kind of jumped out at. You during casting right away that you thought could be the bachelor and you were disappointed he didn't get it on. Did he not? I don't know, you obviously don't have a direct answer as to why Mike Johnson is not the bachelor, but in your opinion, why do you think he didn't get it over Peter?

[01:06:33]

Oh, well, besides, know, I mean, I definitely want to stick with a white guy, I don't know honestly, Peter, I felt like I was just a safe, safe choice. They were, I think, afraid, even though the the general public was like, we want Mike, we want Mike. They were just like, I don't know. I don't know if we're ready. Is is he is he the right one? And they just were like, what's this?

[01:07:01]

See, Peter, easy, I, I wish I knew the answer to that, but I oh, now I'm remembering there was an Hennessy's and there was there and I think he got eliminated the first episode. I believe he was the athlete. I don't remember. Was he the surfer guy? Was he the guy that he was? No, I love that guy, though. Daryn was like the like the football athlete. I think he was an IT consultant or something.

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OK. But then there was Devin, who is also black. Yes. And try to think of their Dustin. Dustin. Yeah.

[01:07:41]

So there were some and both of those guys, as far as I know, I could be wrong and I apologize if I am. But I think both of those guys come from mixed parents, if I may.

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Yeah. OK. Yeah, I believe I believe Devon. Devon is definitely mixed. I don't remember if Darren was or and or Dustin.

[01:08:01]

I thought Justin. He might be. Maybe not. Yeah. I don't. I don't know. I don't. I don't remember. Yeah.

[01:08:07]

And if and if he's not, you know I apologize to Justin for saying I thought he was, I thought I had heard that.

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But I could be wrong so. Oh you were a hunter. Was the hunter. The surfer. Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

[01:08:20]

Hunter Yeah. So she had three or four or five black eyes, but Mike was the one that obviously made Dustin and Devon lasted, I think midway through the season. Hunter was gone early. Darren was gone early. Great. But Mike was the one that, you know, stood out and finished and almost made it to hometowns. And yeah, there was a groundswell for him to be the bachelor. And then just, you know, it came down to Mike and Peter.

[01:08:45]

And then I heard that Mike really wasn't even I thought I heard Mike do an interview saying, like, you know what? They they never really sat me down and said. We're looking at you for BATCHELLER, let's put you in front of the people that you need to talk to and the I don't know, Mike was even like really considered. I have the fans on I. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:09:06]

The fans wanted him, but I, I don't know, for some reason they just I think they were just afraid. They didn't they didn't know the people would respond well or they could do it. Right. Yeah, I it, I don't know.

[01:09:19]

I mean I think one of their things and they have been successful with and it's, it's always been smart of them and they've always said we like casting from within someone that was just on a season where you've built up a knowledge of them and their background and you've seen their family because it's usually someone that makes it at least on hometown dates that you that you have a connection to as an audience that, well, they got dumped. I feel sorry for them.

[01:09:42]

Oh, would be great to see them as the lead. And then it goes.

[01:09:45]

You've had to I think it's 27 seasons in a row now where the lead has been right from a previous season, which is smart, but that's also been why black people have not been able to get the lead, because the only three black people that have made the final four are Rachel, Rachel, lindsy Eric Bigger and Tasha Adams the only three.

[01:10:02]

Yeah. Yeah. So you can't make them out now with Matt. It's weird with Matt because technically he's not Bachelor Nation, even though he he was going to be because he was set to be on season. So people kind of know, Matt, we just don't know him from a previous season where we saw him date, where we saw his family and all that stuff.

[01:10:24]

So it's it's like they're kind of keeping the tradition because it's not like they chose somebody that no one's ever heard of or just like, hey, we found a great successful black guy. He's a CEO of a tech company and he's going to be our new bachelor. And you've never seen it before.

[01:10:38]

Like something at least Matt James is like, hey, he's Tyler Cameron's best friend.

[01:10:42]

So that's automatically points for him because I'll stay, right?

[01:10:48]

I mean, he's got Matt's checking off all the boxes, best friends with Tyler Cameron, who's the most followed male on Instagram in bachelor history. You know, he's half white. That that adds to, you know, that checks off another box for them.

[01:11:02]

You know, it's you know, and look, maybe Matt will have a great season. I hope he does. I hope he does, too.

[01:11:08]

And then maybe people will look at the show differently, like, wow, because I remember when Rachel was The Bachelorette hurt her, the color of his skin never came up.

[01:11:20]

When I was watching it, when I was recapping it, at no point did I ever see I mean, they made they made they made sure they had a racist on the show with with me.

[01:11:30]

And, you know, they of course, they had to make a storyline with that. But other than that storyline, like the fact that Rachel was black, it never, ever.

[01:11:40]

Like when I was watching the show and right never, I was like, OK, I'm watching The Bachelorette like it didn't didn't matter that Rachel was black. She was dating black guys. She was dating white guys. She ended up marrying, you know. Yeah.

[01:11:52]

She didn't marry Brian, who is, you know, Latino.

[01:11:56]

I believe you. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. But he wasn't a he wasn't a black guy and she only of her final four guys.

[01:12:03]

It was Dean. It was Peter is Brian and Eric. So she only had one black guy in her final four.

[01:12:08]

So but when I was watching her season, at no point did I think, oh God, black bachelorette. This is totally different. It's not different at all. It's it's just like a person.

[01:12:17]

Like it's a person. You just want to watch them find love and that's it, period. And I hope that what they do that with Matt, you know, they don't focus so much on the fact that he is black because they could easily fall into that trope. And I'm hoping that they don't and they just do it the same way they did. Rachel, you're just watching him find love and do that period and be done with it.

[01:12:40]

Exactly. And, yeah, let's let's hope for that to happen and let's hope, you know, clear season starts filming and filming on time and then they're back on schedule with Matt in September. Hopefully so. Yeah. Jazy, thanks so much for coming on and doing this. Anybody who's interested in applying to be on the circle, you can contact can they contact you on Instagram or is that too.

[01:13:02]

Yeah, yeah. They can feel free to slide into my D.M. at Jazy Nicole Collins. So feel free to reach out to me then I get them on the application and I would love to have them apply if they'd be interested.

[01:13:14]

Yeah, that's great. So Jazzy. Thank you so much for coming on. I appreciate this. And we'll talk soon. Yeah. Thank you so much. Bye bye. Thank you so much to Jazy for coming on. It was good to get a production perspective even it was the casting people. You know, if you haven't read her Instagram post, go read it. It's very it's pretty. It's about as straightforward as you can get. Basically calling the Bachelor franchise racist and saying you're a whitewashed franchise and you need to do something about it.

[01:13:46]

And like we said, only time is going to tell whether or not The Bachelor has hired production. And that's my biggest question, is will know how.

[01:13:56]

The casting has changed because we see the contestants, we see what they look like, how are we going to know? How many new producers they've hired that are maybe black or someone of color? Who do they answer to? Who's going to hold them accountable? Do we even know I mean, I guess you can ask a contestant on the show, hey, how many black producers did you see? But I don't know.

[01:14:22]

I understand what the statement from the executive producers was that we're you know, we're hoping to instill more diversity in our cast and our staff taking positive steps in all this. But how are we as an audience going to know if they do that or not?

[01:14:37]

That's my biggest question, because as I mentioned in the Jazy interview, they don't announce production hires on the show. They announce who The Bachelor is, who The Bachelorette is, who the contestants are. But they don't say, hey, we've hired so-and-so to be a field producer. So that's where I'm a little bit curious about how this is going to work.

[01:14:57]

But I mean, we'll see. Hopefully there they are going to follow through with their words from their statement, because right now that statement is only words. Thanks again to Jazy for coming on. Thank you all for listening.

[01:15:08]

I really appreciate it. And we're approaching 200 podcasts. Can you believe that? 200 sorry, as we as we get to we're at one, Jazy is 191, only nine away. So Potasnik, Collins, inreality. Steve, thank you all for tuning in. And we will talk to you next week, Tim.