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Melissa from Michigan, I work an extra part time job serving lunch at my child's school, but I still can't afford to put food on our table. Daniel from California, choosing whether to pay the rent or pay to fix the car to get to work doesn't leave us with much at all.


Now, we can't even pay for meals. Hunger is a story we can end end it at Feeding America dog brought to you by Feeding America and the Ad Council.


We are back and black on the black African network. Hey, y'all is to me, Cathy Mallory and my song in general It's Me and Street Politicians is the podcast for the culture. We will be breaking down social and civil rights issues, pop culture and politics on our podcast every winter. We will have special guests as well with local activists to join the show discussing political issues going on in their community. Listen to street politicians on the I Heart radio at Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast.


That's right. Hey fam.


I'm Jada Pinkett Smith and this is the Red Tablecloth podcast. All your favorite episodes from the Facebook Watch show in audio produced by Westbrooke Audio and I Heart Radio. Please don't forget to write and review on Apple podcasts.


You guys, I'm so excited that Demi and her daughters are here.


Yeah. Oh my goodness. I mean, Demi Moore is making headlines with her explosive new book Inside Out, the number one New York Times bestseller is filled with deeply personal accounts of her painful past, including being raped at 15 by a man who paid her mother five hundred dollars for a deeply troubled mother, was an alcoholic who attempted suicide when Demi was just a child.


Demi struggled with her own addictions but got sober and didn't use for almost 20 years after her divorce from Bruce Willis, Demi found love again with Ashton Kutcher. But she relapsed and eventually that marriage ended to spinning out of control. Demi hit a new low and she was rushed to the hospital after taking drugs at a party, she found herself alone and estranged from her family.


Demi Moore and her daughters come to the table to talk about the pain passed down from parent child. Welcome to me and a little. Thank you. This is such a nice day, I remember doing dinner with you and well, Bruce and I.


Yes, at the Ivy at the shore, you guys, I don't even think we're married. I don't know.


I don't think you're married yet. Oh, yes. And then we came to your house in Malibu. Would you remember that?


So what really hit me about your book was reading about your relationship with your mother, reading about your journey and then your relationship with your girls and me thinking about my relationship with my mother. My mother's twenty eight years clean.


OK, well, congratulations to that incredible. Twenty eight years.


And then also thinking about Willow, right? Yeah. One of the reasons for the red table and to have these generational conversations is to try to break some of the cycles.


Right. I've had a very codependent life and I know that even today when Willow and I were having a conversation about some decisions that she was making, I was like, here is the co-dependency.


And she got that from me. Well, one of the things is that I started to look at issues that say Roomer had with her self-esteem that did not reflect her environment, her insecurity, her self-loathing, just the torture feeling not good enough, which is exactly what I had been dealing with for my whole life.


She was carrying my the weight of my issue and I understood where mine came from. But there was a degree of it that just didn't match. And I'm like, super, super a little. And another thing that I found really interesting, and it's something I know that you're working on, you know, you can tell your kids, I love you, I love you so much every day. But if that's not reflected in how you feel about yourself as the mother, your kid is going to pick up on that, you know, and not be able to necessarily take in.


Oh, I'm so amazing because my mom says I'm amazing, but my mom doesn't love herself. Like, how how can I how how can I expect her to love her?


What did you see in your mother that you felt was a reflection of how you felt or feel?


A lot of the just like unworthiness, like I'm innately unlovable somehow, no matter how I look, what I weigh, like how my hair looks at whatever the outside reflection is.


There's something innately about me that I have to earn love from people and constantly prove myself that and a lot of the stuff with men.


What about you, Tallulah? I think that is apologizing for being here, which is language that my mom had. And I have used a lot of trying to figure out where we fit into the equation and how to find the tiny little hole to hide in trying to be invisible, being small and being invisible.


And I'm just going to hold everything together and get through and white knuckle it, white knuckle it. Right. And in the book she talks about, I think, one of the first time she had sex and how she felt she needed to and how she felt like it was something expected of her, which is pretty much been my exact story. And that's not something that we talked about and shared. I felt like my mom made a choice to hold back certain things like sharing about her past.


And I think that always made me feel very far away from her and always made you feel like I didn't know her very well. So like I knew she had a career. If she met my dad, she had grown up in New Mexico, but it was like. That was it?


That was it. I don't believe in archaeological digs, emotional archaeological digs for just the purpose of digging.


But I don't think my mom was raised. She was forged, you know, like she was she was made. And the strength that comes from that, it's intimidating and it's scary. And it's and I was growing up, it was like I kind of feel that way about my age.


It's like like forged in the fire for, you know, and then a rose, I feel, you know, sparks flying everywhere.


I think we divide her. I think she was this larger than life. And she was I mean, I'm completely obsessed with her. Like, I love her more than and completely obsessed with my mom.


But would you also say that you guys created a standard. Yeah. For me of of of what you of your expectation that was also greater than what you would put on anybody else. Like my like my room of my my room for error was.


But I will say but I will say that but also I think that that is a byproduct of and I'm and I'm not saying this in a blaming way, but I think that that's also a byproduct of you not necessarily being weak in front of that.


I know. I know. I, I, I agree 100 percent. They're fine. They're totally fine. And then in your mind, as a kid, you're like she's always good, you know. I get that one hundred percent, you open the book at a place that really hit me, I was now completely alone. I was almost 50. The husband, who I thought was the love of my life, had cheated on me, then decided he didn't want to work on our marriage.


My children weren't speaking to me. Their father, a friend I'd counted on for years, was gone from my life. The career at Scramble to create was stalled or maybe it was over for good. Everything I was attached to, even my health, had abandoned me. I looked like I felt destroyed. Lord knows I've been in places in my life where. Feeling alone, abandoned and completely shattered. I had done so much work on myself and to find myself in a worse place than I've ever been.


It's like, how did I get here?


And so unraveling all the weight of my mother and all of those things.


But when you're hiding certain things that you are holding on to a shame and that's what it was. I had a depth of shame that I held onto that was really like life or death.


So can you explain why you guys weren't talking to your mom for three years? What happened was she relapsed when I was nine and no one in our family spoke about it and I had no idea it was going on. She'd been sober my entire childhood and then she drank. And then I just knew that I was scared and that she was unsafe. And then there was sort of a many years of saying she was sober and she was in and we couldn't trust it.


And then all of the adults around us, in an effort to protect us, were protecting her. And so if she wasn't sober, they would tell us she was. And so there was a complete lack of trust. Were you with Ashton then when she was nine years old? And that's when the relapse. Yes. How it broke down. Like, you know, I opened that door to drinking after almost 20 years.




And you and Ashton were trying to have a baby. I ended up pregnant and then I lost the baby and almost six months. And so when I couldn't get pregnant again, the guilt that I felt. That it was clearly my fault was just enormous, so we went on this trip and Ashton said, I don't know if alcoholism is the thing, I think it's about moderation. And if I had stayed close to working my program, I, of course, like I've lived the majority of my adult life sober.


I was great sober. I had I had no.


What do you think that mental or emotional pull was to be wanted to be that girl?


Yeah, I was I you know, I made my own story up that he wanted somebody that he could have wine with and do so. He didn't he's not the cause of why I opened that door.


I wanted to be something other than who I am. Right. And I and I it was literally like giving my power away. Right.


So much of that time, especially with Ashton, I was so angry because I felt like something that was mine had been taken away.


And I think also when she wanted to have another baby, it was like and then it wasn't happening. And then there was so much focus on that. It was like, oh, we're not enough. And part of the reason, like I moved out of the house was, um, I think after you had a miscarriage, I literally was just like, why are you so desperate to have another kid?


And I couldn't stand the idea. Yeah, but then I found these pictures and I was like, oh, my God, I saw how big her stomach was. And I was like, oh, my God. Like, I was so insensitive. I never once went to you and said, I'm so sorry.


Like, I'm are you OK?


And I understand, you know what? I want you to know that even in your sensitivity, it's OK to be angry. Yes, absolutely. You know, and that doesn't mean you don't love your mother, doesn't mean you're not cause for her.


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Hey, Kaitlin Durante. Yeah, Jamie Loftus. Don't you wish there were a podcast that examines some of everyone's favorite movies using an intersectional feminist lens? Well, yes, I do. Well, good news. It exists. And it's our podcast. What? How did I not know? I know the Bacto cast is a weekly show where we invite our favorite comics, writers and film critics to bring one of their favorite movies and tear it to shreds with us using the Bechdel test as a jumping off point for discussion.


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It wasn't just the addiction or drinking again, the addiction in the codependency like my addiction to Ashton. And that was probably almost more devastating because it yeah, it took me seriously away emotionally, you know, watching the behavior with Ashton those years because everyone left the house and it was just me living there. And I felt very forgotten and I felt like I develop and I nurtured a narrative that she didn't love me and I truly believed it. And I know that she does 100 percent.


But in that moment, you're hurt and you can't fathom that someone that loves you would do that to you and would choose others more than you.


Scouten Tallulah had very different experiences than I had when we stopped talking to my mom. They didn't speak to her for three years.


I went in and out as kind of like the ambassador for the family because at one point her friends are calling me and being like, I'm really worried about your mom, like you need to talk to her. And so then I'm like, OK, well, like, I have to go and fix this. And then my family basically kind of like, shunned me and kind of called me a traitor for going to talk to her. And then I was like, then I'll have no one.


I'll have my mom who's, like, not capable of, like being my mom right now. And then the rest of my family is just not going to speak to me anymore. Right.


What was it that was scary and unsafe for you in regards to your mother's relatives? It was like the sun went down and like like like a monster came, you know, like I remember there's just the anxiety.


That would come up in my body when I could sense, like her eyes shedding a little bit more the way she was speaking, or she would be a lot more affectionate with me if she wasn't sober. And I it was less jarring and it was very weird. And there were moments where they would get angry. And I recall being very upset and kind of treating her like a child and speaking to her like a child and kind of being like, you know, please get away from me.


And she was she got very angry and it would happen in front of friends. And it was it was not the mom that we had. Exactly. My mom held everything together. Right. You had always chosen us.


You would always put us first and made that a priority. Came to Idaho like stopped working, like being around a woman as your mother.


Who is this, like, infallible woman who can take on anything?


Even my dad, like all of these people that are, you know, that is in control always like always together, always in control, not being control around a man like who is this person?


I don't know who this is. And I feel like they are supposed to be my my rock.


They are supposed to be the one who is like and especially it's even more, I think, exaggerated exaggerator exacerbated because your baseline was so the opposite.


Yeah. You know, it's not like this was what they knew. I had completely different. That's that's what I'm that's what I'm hearing.


You write to me says that her rock bottom happened one night at a party in 2012 after nearly 20 years of sobriety to me hit a terrifying low at a birthday party. She took a puff of synthetic pot and nitrous oxide and everything went blurry. Is she breathing? Yes, and she overdosed on the whole thing. She yelled no because she knew what would come next. The ambulance, the paparazzi. And then TMZ announcing Demi Moore rushed to the hospital on drugs.


I was there in the other room with not one one panicking because I'm like, all right, either my mom is going to die and I'm not going to be in the room and I'm going to feel the guilt of that for the rest of my life or I'm going to be there and see this image of my mom and that I will never get out of my head. So like what I do and or I'm going to have to call my sisters in the morning and tell them that my mom died and they're never going to talk to her again.


And I took her to rehab on the plane, which was the scariest thing I've ever had to do in my life.


Do you refer to yourself as an addict?


I fully identify as an addict, alcoholic. I think my whole nature is really all or nothing. I have to speed, go and go faster. And I do not have an off switch. Right. In January, I'll have eight years sober.


But it's interesting, though, like I never heard you use language like that necessarily. And so I remember even like having a lot of frustration towards you and the times like you called going away to treatment camp. Like I had so much of this undealt with anger that I hadn't let out because I didn't understand what was going on. And I think at the time I didn't have a healthy relationship with alcohol either.


So when did when did your abuse start? When this stuff when I stopped talking to my mom. Then it kind of kicked up into high gear and I literally started getting anxiety attacks about how bad I was going to feel the next day so I would be drunk and be like hyperventilating and freak out and like, made my friend called nine one one once.


Right. I definitely think that my addiction lies more so in the like love addict co-dependency.


How old were you when you had your first drink? I was six. Oh wow. Really.


OK, wait, wait, wait. She got Jamaican rum and then it was Johnnie Walker. Oh yeah. I was 14 for Tyrone family vacation there. It was champagne like it was very like it was sweet. And then when I was 15, I guzzled vodka and I almost died from alcohol poisoning.


Wow. And then I think when my mom began to really when things were very painful, that's when I began to drink heavily. Heavily. Right. Lula had lived with me for a little while and I was like, there are three wine bottles on the bedside table and lying about that. And then all of a sudden my medicine was going missing. And so then I was like, I love you. You cannot stay with me anymore. So she got some, like, scary apartment.


Wow. And then my dad relocated me to the hotel because he didn't really know what to do with me. To be honest, my dad didn't understand that once a child graduates from high school that you still take care of them.


I honestly, truly don't think he recalled that. So we were saying the Beverly Hills Hotel and our little sister was about to be born. OK, so you're talking about your dad, Bruce's baby? Yeah.


And then Skout came in to tell me and I had taken a bunch of codeine and I had done a bunch of cocaine that morning and Skout couldn't wake me up. And she was shaking me and she called me and she's like, I can't wait to. So when I finally woke up, she was crying and I made her feel horrible about it. And I was like, whatever, I want to go back to bed. And then I, I woke up a few hours later and I was just hysterically crying because it was like the first window of sobriety, know, before this tiny five minutes that you wake up before you start using again.


And the feeling was like, you just have death on your bones. I had no regard for my life. I had no care.


So my dad got involved and he threatened to send me to AA meetings as a punishment, which didn't really make any sense.


Scouten, I basically had like an intervention. Yeah.


And I called Roomer and I said, you need to take me to Mom's house today. At this point, we were coming up on three years of not speaking. I started living with her that day. Wow. Yeah.


And I went to treatment by choice. By choice. I asked to go, wow. And when we did, Tulis Family Week was the first time the five of our immediate family had been together. And I don't even know how long. Yeah, it was intense.


I don't know if you can relate to this, but growing up the way that we did, I felt we weren't allowed to have pain because we had so much.


When we first started talking to my mom again, she would always like my perception was that it was like you guys did this to me. You stop talking to me. There were like three words that she would use, like the rug pulled out from under me.


And she would be like, I just could never understand what I did that was so bad.


Right, because I was playing the victim. Listen, we're very good at that. Yeah, we're very good at playing the victim. Yeah. Do you agree? I do. I do. I played a lot of victim on that side too. Yeah. And not being willing to accept the damage that we have caused and I get it. But what about how I felt all those times. And I didn't to tell you like what about like yeah.


There's this part of me that wants to be like I want to have an itemized list of all of the nights that I felt wronged or whatever it is, but also wanting to be validated for, like, how awful that was.


Do you get that to me?


Yeah, no, totally. And the the thing is, is I, I feel like I was actually like constantly trying to invite them to please. I'm, you know, and I did a lot reaching out and no one responding.


You did. Absolutely. I didn't want to do it. There was just a fear of like whenever we tried to bring something up to you, she's just going to find a way to, like, turn it into something that. Where she doesn't really have to take responsibility, but she's not not taking responsibility.


I was defensive at feeling like they weren't really seeing me where I was. But in life, the reaction to something doesn't necessarily always happen in it's real time. And I think what was occurring is that their reaction of what was coming was not about behavior that had been in that immediate past. It was from before. And what I was wrestling with was sitting there doing what I felt they had asked and being left. And I totally understand that.


And I just know even with Willow, I've had to just sit with Willow and have her reality and have her pain, let it burn and have forgiveness for myself around it.


And really unit even if it wasn't what I meant to do, even if that wasn't my intention as a recovering addict, I understand that it's not a guarantee that people that you've hurt in your life, people who have been damaged by your behavior and your decisions are going to remain in your life. Right. You know, and I've always been so grateful that, you know, Jada never gave up on me. She never gave up on us, and she was always there.




I wanted her to show and prove to me that I'm important enough for you to get sober. Right.


I want you to show me that being in my life is worth more than any drug, any man like anything.


Yeah. Yeah. And that's the most human thing that you could possibly think like this is hurting you. I should be enough for you to not hurt yourself. Yeah.


She's holding this perception that, OK, you'll do this if you love me and if you don't, you don't love me, which is a setup also to like No. One hundred percent. And but, you know, at that time of me being and so in it get desperate. Yeah, I was desperate. I was like, I have to do something. There's no one that I can trust. I have no idea what's happening. It's been so bad.


And it's like someone comes over to your house in the middle of the night and they break everything in your house. And the next morning it's like you don't get to talk about it.


Yeah, it was like a pressure cooker because it had been seven, eight years of silent suffering.


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Yo, this is the urban philosopher, philanthropist and the host of the Recession Podcast, a production of the Black Offic podcast network and our radio. I'll bring you real conversations about systemic racism, mental health, life on the streets and much more. My guests will include influential figures like Charlamagne Tigard, Dr. Jess and Tony Robbins.


You know, Martin Luther King said, you know, a man or you could say today a person who hasn't done something they're willing to die for isn't fit to live, was pretty strong words that I really believe in my soul that what changes people is when you find something to serve more than yourself.


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I have a really hard time expressing anger more than I would be. Like I can handle it.


I can do it. Like it's fine. I'll just and then I always then take it on myself. I'll tell you this from personal experience, I've held on to so much anger and it has turned into so much rage.


And the sneaky thing about rage and anger and how it becomes its own thing and you don't even you don't even recognize that until you look around you and you go, oh, my God, there's a lot of scorched earth around me and it just pops up.


It just pops up. Right. And it's because it's just. Sitting there because it wants to be heard. Yeah, exactly, you have to work yourself through that rage feeling, little girl, that is so angry of being neglected, not heard.


Not seen. No, you didn't say you love me enough. You didn't toss that joke out the house and look at me instead of him, you know what I mean? Throw those bottles to the curb, you know what I mean? I should have had no wine. That's so real. One hundred percent. Yeah, but as mothers, you don't want to also burden or you don't want to bring something that creates fear when there is none. It could really be just a weight that's just too much.


I remember coming home from a back to school party and all of these kids were like saying things to me and I'm crying and I get in the car, I'm like, sobbing.


My mom goes, What do you think that your part this was? And I was like, I'm going to kill you right now. I'm crying. These people are being mean, which they always like.


Give me because it was so sad is that I would so I would say I would. So I would say for me it was always like it's you know, I can be upset, I can be angry. I can. But what's the point? I know I'm just going have to get to this other place, so let's just get that right. Willow had a moment not too long ago when you had that upset and you were crying on the couch and I just came to you and held you.


And I said to myself, I said, I wish I had done this more with her. When you can just hold your little girl, have her tears, have her pain. Yeah. Back in the day, like, if I would be crying or have an upset, the energy was always like, take that somewhere else.


Yeah. Like take that somewhere else because that's with it on yourself. I didn't want to be with my own feelings.


I mean, I do think in your survival mechanism that toughness that I'm so grateful that I had. But when it seems that you're not affected or that you handle things so well on the outside, I realize that I did a disservice by not letting them see me weak. I think we need to show them not just our strength, but how we process to get through disappointment, upset, hurt.


Yeah, and I would agree with you on that. I think that was the place that I got to of getting to a place of vulnerability exactly where I could cry in front of women.


It took you a long time to make time because of that forging. There's this wall, there's this armor. And I was thinking about how it does a disservice to everybody we love, including ourselves.


Do you feel like you overcompensated for creating safety for them or wanting to create a safe environment for them? I definitely overcompensated. And and I want to just take a moment and just say to you that I'm sorry, I'm going to make it.


She'll do that, you know, because you don't necessarily have because you want to create safety vulnerabilities.


Not safe. Exactly. One hundred percent way that we grew up, the way my mother grew up, you feel like you have to be strong and the first thing you want to do is teach your girls how to be strong because you didn't have a choice.


We didn't have a choice. So, I mean, and that's your baseline was like life or death. Exactly. That was our baseline. Right. And so as we come into our healing, we come into our softness and our vulnerability.


There was a time that her tears were so offensive to me, I'm sure, so offensive, which I was like, take that over there. We can't afford that here.


Not realizing that you can afford it and you're not in Baltimore anymore, OK? You absolutely can't afford it here. Right.


But I have to confront the fact that I denied her that and have to confront the fact that I can give it to her now and I about you now and remembering that their experience and their pain is no different because the circumstances were different.


I know that when you care for your mom and her last months, that's when the healing for you really started to occur.


I didn't go there even having an expectation of wanting something from her, but I just knew that that's where I was supposed to be to me.


Do not speak to her mother for nearly a decade after she told stories about her daughter and grandchildren to the tabloids, Demi's teenage mom battled addiction and mental illness during one of her many suicide attempts to me used to small fingers to dig the pills out of her mother's mouth to save her life. But much of this pain and trauma to me kept from her daughters.


When I distance myself from my mother, it was completely justified. I was protecting my children from her behavior, but there was a point where I kind of decided who she was.


And in that moment when I decided who she was, I realized that. I limited her from ever becoming anything else and that there was a part of my compassion and my humanity that had been lost. How could I expect my daughter to have compassion and hold the humanity for me if I didn't recognize that from my mother? And the gift that was the most profound is in the moments right after she passed, I was with her. And when I was able to really understand that she came into this world like the innocence of her soul came in wanting what we all want, wanting to be loved, wanting to matter, wanting to feel, seeing.


And I was able to shift to even a deeper layer of compassion so that they could shift to me.


And that's the stuff.


And that's the piece that's been so. Yeah. Profound. Wow.


I really try to encourage people, no matter what they've gone through, to find that loving for their parent or partner, whatever it might be.




OK, how are you guys doing.


OK, it's time to hold hands and say, Kevin, this was such a powerful, powerful, powerful, powerful and thank you for trusting us to tell this part of your story.


It means so much. And I'm wishing you guys just all the love. And as you guys feel, trust me, we're doing it. And I love the work. Never it never ends. On the next round table talk, an incredible story of survival. You were found outside in trash, overcoming the odds.


Kids kicked our ass every day and they were calling me wisecracker lover.


And the lessons learned along the way, she was all I had an inspiring conversation with my good friend Tommy Davidson. And the loss is just as much mine as it is yours.


So it's difficult.


Hayati family join our red tabletop group on Facebook to become part of the conversation and be sure to follow the show page to catch up on all our episodes.


What's up, guys? We are here with me and her two beautiful daughters. Want to please swipe up and check out our beautiful conversation. Swipe up. Yes, you guys did awesome doing it. Did awesome. To join the red table, talk family and become a part of the conversation, follow us at Facebook dot com slash red talk. Thanks for listening to this episode of Red Tablecloth podcast produced by Facebook Watch Westbrooke Audio and I Heart Radio.


I'm Debbie Brown, the host of the Dropping Gems podcast, a podcast about the depth and potential of personal growth. No one's journey is the same as the next, but the magic of being human shows up in the things we have in common.


Our capacity for love, pain, joy, sadness, togetherness and solitude are things that make us perfectly imperfect. And I want to explore with you how we can live our best through it all. The new season of Dropping Gems is available now. Listen, dropping gems on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you listen to podcast.


Nearly 600 years after the invention of the printing press, the most important book in the history of the world has arrived, there might be overstating things, stuff you should know, an incomplete compendium of mostly interesting things.


It will change your life forever.


Well, that's not necessarily true. Most scientists agree that stuff you should know an incomplete compendium of mostly interesting things is proof that time travel is possible because that is the only way to explain how a book this impressive was possibly made and why stuff you should know. An incomplete compendium of mostly interesting things will regrow hair white in your teeth and improve your love life.


That's just not at all. Right.


Well, the love life part, maybe if you find someone who thinks smart is sexy stuff, you should know an incomplete compendium of mostly interesting things available for preorder. Now at stuff you should know Dotcom.


Now, that is true.