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Growing up near Lancaster, South Carolina, I knew it as a hometown for a black man named Jim Duncan, who became a Super Bowl hero for the 50s. And now my new podcast, Return Man.


I'll discover that his death still makes no sense at all.


The story was that my brother took a gun off a police officer and shot himself in the head. Most people believe it involves race, mental state of the person and a child that was scared to say anything.


Listen to return man on the I Heart Radio Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast.


Hey, got any idea what I gandy dancer is where a phrenologists, what about a knocka upper believe it or not, these are all actual jobs from the past and the stories behind them are fascinating.


I'm that beat. And I'm Helen Hong. And every week we take a look at a different occupation that is now jobs elite on our new podcast called, you guessed it, Jobs Elite.


Check it out on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast, pay färm.


I'm Jada Pinkett Smith and this is the Red Tablecloth podcast. All your favorite episodes from the Facebook Watch show in audio produced by Westbrooke Audio and I Heart Radio. Please don't forget to write and review on Apple podcasts.


On this red table talk, Willow, what was your most recent heartbreak, how to mend a broken heart?


Deep down, I still love it.


My heart is in our personal counselor and renowned relationship expert McKayla Boehm, and she has worked with Will and I for many, many, many years, is here to help us cope with betrayal.


I caught him entertaining several other men on social media rejection.


He told me that he no longer has romantic feelings for me, pain, the passing of my mother in law.


It was very painful tragedy.


I called home and I got a live report of the house burning down, which was devastating and shattered dreams.


I get a call. He was seeing another woman for nine months. I don't know how to go from here.


The number one topic you asked us to bring to the table in twenty twenty was how to deal with a broken heart.


We have a very wise woman who is joining us to share wisdom and advice. She is an author, teacher, counselor and a wonderful friend of the Smith family. Her name is McKayla Bowen and she has worked with Will and I for many, many, many years.


We love having you here. I get to actually touch the red tape.




I mean, this has been a year 20 has been we have so many people that are dealing with so many different kinds of heartbreak. People are losing their homes, losing their jobs, losing their relationships.


It's just it can be really overwhelming. It is heartbreaking. It's intense. Michaela, I know you had a really your heart break.


I mean, I remember that devastation.


I lost my house, my entire property in the Thomas fire. I wasn't home. I saw something on Facebook and I called home and I got a live report of the house burning down, which was devastating. But the real heartbreak is that I lost some of my dogs. Yeah. And a lot of my livestock, a lot of my ducks and chickens and tortoises and turtles and cats.


But the dogs were, you know, they're my children. Yeah. And so there was devastation after devastation. After devastation. It certainly taught me about kind of the heartbreak and the suffering that I was not aware of. You know, it's something when your entire existence is boiled down to this much dust.


Yeah. Because you are brilliant at what you do. You know, just as far as helping other people gives you very difficult times. What do you think was some of the new wisdom that you acquired going through this experience in regards to dealing with heartbreak?


And yes, I think the most important thing is I really understood viscerally in my body that there is kind of stages to the grieving that you can't can't bypass. You have to accept that it sucks and not try to immediately whitewash and go, what am I learning? So that's a biped. It's a bypass. What I realized is that when people were dealing with me, they couldn't deal with the intensity of the pain. So they skipped over the pain.


Somebody said to me, four days after the fire, well, I guess now you got a good lesson in non attachment. That must be amazing. So stuff like that. I know. I know.


And so I really learned for my work as well the acknowledgement of the horror. And mind you, one person's horror might not be another person's horror. Right. But that doesn't matter. It's really, really subjective. And the pain is the pain is the pain. Yeah. And so I think what was my biggest learning is that you have to acknowledge it. You can skip over it. And when you do that, it gives you permission to grieve and then the grieving allows you to stay functional.


What I did every morning before I even got up, I'd cry. And I, you know, clients really, really, really healthy.


And through it, though, through it.


And then the tears wash out things. I have a question for you again. What has been your biggest heartbreak? I think this year it has really been the passing of my mother in law.


Right. Right. You know, because it yeah. It's actually it was very painful. It was very, very painful.


And then not being able to gather to celebrate her life the way we ordinarily would, that's very, very tough.


Have you had some romantic heartbreak in your life?


I have had a lot of romantic heartbreak. This one particular failure in one of my marriages that I really built up in my head, that this was my one true love and I'll never love, like I'll never love like this again.


Yeah. It wasn't a divorce that I wanted.


But at the end of the day, when you really, really look at the relationship honestly, you guys like this one going nowhere but two degrees.


Right. Really feel like you have to kind of take some time and be honest with yourself. Yeah.


Willow, what was your most recent heartbreak? You know, I've had some personal decisions that I needed to make this year that were really hard, I had to just learn how to set some boundaries in my romantic relationship.


Ships and I'm so grateful that my partner was just open to what I had to say, and when you truly love someone, no matter what, you're going to want what's best for them.


I felt like I was almost making the situation bigger than it needed to be.


And you guys really did a good job working it out to get Mikhaila helped.


Yeah, a lot wasn't nearly as tough as you saw as I was building it up to me.


And you had such courage about it and you were so clear that you wanted the best for both of you. And that's really quite extraordinary and quite commendable.


Yeah. Baby steps. Yeah.


I was actually saying to Jada, I had a daughter envy for the first time in my life. I was the first time in my adult life.


I was like, I wish I had a daughter. I wish I had a daughter. Like, you know, you can consider me your daughter.


You you've helped me a lot. And she's helped us all a lot. Yeah. Thank you.


Kayla, what about you, Mom? And you say everybody's telling the story. What about yours? You know, I mean, I've had plenty of heartbreak in my life, devastating heartbreak.


But what I'm still trying to learn is allowing for that that tenderness versus going versus going into fight mode. Go, I go and I go. McCallan, I go straight into fight.


And I think that has a lot to do with the fear of being hurt. Yeah.


You don't want to feel rejected. You don't want to feel unloved. Right. Being programmed and believe in girl don't let those tears come. Yeah.


Don't let those tears come because you will fall apart and you might not be able to put yourself back together again. But it takes a lot of just trusting yourself.


You know, in a lot of times we don't have enough self-worth. Yes.


We have some guests that are coming to our tea to speak to Michela.


I was Deputy Mayor Carlos Miller, Squashy Cobain, and we are of the 85 self show and we've got some of the best guess where we had to change. Tip came. Jay Prince came. Yeah, everybody. Everybody can. But guess what? You got to catch up on all the episodes that you missed, like Fabo Killer, Mike, Busta Rhymes, Busta Rhymes.


He bust a couple of listen to the eighty five s show on the radio app on Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, this is Bill Clinton, please join me on my podcast, why am I telling you this? Why am I telling you this? Why am I telling you this for conversations with some of the most fascinating people I know? We'll talk about ideas that deserve more attention, about how science, technology and design are improving our lives, and about why we should be hopeful and optimistic about our future.


Listen to why am I telling you this on the radio Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.


First is Sarah from Denver, Colorado. Hey, Sarah, welcome. Thank you. Thank you.


Just over a year ago, I met a guy who I connected with so quickly and so deeply that I actually really felt like he was the guy for me. He was the one. And then he actually recently told me that he no longer has romantic feelings for me.


And I'm really struggling with it. And I'm very much at the point in my life where I no longer want to pursue dating or pursue love.


And I apologize if I start to get emotional. I thought I did everything correctly. I'm becoming very fatigued on trying to brush it off and try again.


You are absolutely right to feel like you don't want to do it anymore because that's what happens first. You're so beaten down and it's so devastating, you can't imagine doing it ever again. But and of course, you will do it again and you will have learned something from it and you will be stronger for it.


I guess I'm just in a space where I'm almost thirty five. I've been trying this for a while, but I am kind of repeatedly broken up with. So I kind of keep coming back to like what am I doing wrong that has kept me in this space for a decade now.


What would your guess be if I would say to you, what do you think you are doing that makes it so?


I know that I do pick people who may not be as emotionally mature as I need them to be. My other concern has been that I am just too accessible. If my ex would have called me any time and say he was ready to get back with me, I would have say yes 100 percent.


So in the pattern of the guys leaving. Right. Or what do they say?


They say you're incredible, but pretty much just always I'm not ready for commitment.


And when you meet a guy, are you very clear on the fact that you want a deep commitment right from the get go? I think that in the past I have tried to camouflage a little bit or like adapt like a chameleon to kind of figure out what they wanted.


I think what you're describing is so built into many of us, we tend to really feel what other people need and then morph ourselves in ways so we get love. Yeah, right. But it's the very thing that will make a relationship, not work, because who you say you are and who you really are is not the same.


And that eventually bites you in the relationship. So are you saying she's not being true to who she really is?


She's more ordered to the other person, to herself.


You didn't want to push him. You start putting yourself further and further back and then who you are doesn't really come to play and it becomes more and more about him. And then, of course, he goes, well, I'm not feeling it, because what he isn't feeling is who he thought you were in the first place, who you no longer are because you've accommodated, you've morphed for the sake of the relationship.


This is important, McKale.


Very important, because we as women, my God, do we do this so often where we think, OK, if I just let him flow, how he needs to flow, and if I just make myself available in a way that he needs, he'll love me. He'll appreciate the fact. But what? He pauses. Yes, I'm being supportive. She's nodding.


The quick and dirty answer to what you're saying is who you are at some point has to be good enough. Now you just got to hold steady. Yeah.


I mean, you know, I've been married four times and I just never gave up. I just took what I learned from that relationship and tried to carry it into the next one in a positive way.


Nothing's wasted. Nothing's wasted.


I appreciate everything that you're saying. Thank you, Sarah, so much for share.


You are precious. And I just want you to know, keep going. Every relationship gives us a gem that we can use in our next step for that next door that's inevitably going to open.


You are a beautiful woman, girl. Thank you. Love you said.


Yes. Thank you so much, Sarah. That was beautiful. Every time I always sit here and I go, how she gonna handle this one?


So Trina is next.


Hey, Jay and your family so much. Well, thank you. From North Carolina. I was married for thirty nine years to a man that I was with. And that will get emotional. That's OK. I've been with them since I was 14. So he was my only love. Yeah, and we just a year ago had plans of our retirement traveling the world and he just all of a sudden wanted to separate about three months ago. And then I get a call from an anonymous person.


He was seeing another woman for nine months. I'm fifty seven years old. How do you get past this kind of hurt and actually move on from this? Because deep down, truly, I still love it and my heart is in place. Yeah.


Oh. Oh. I'm sorry, don't be sorry, I don't know how to go on from here. Thank God I have a wonderful daughter, but it's still hard.


This is one of those moments where I wish I had a magic wand, right, where you could just wave the magic wand and the pain is lifted. So you grew up with this man that you became a woman and the mother and and who you are today. Your entire life is connected with this man. Then it's suddenly pulled out. That's about as devastating as it gets. It feels like a death.


What you're experiencing right now is a is is multiple layers of grief and loss in the first stages, absolute devastation. And no one will blame you if you want to just lay down, then the next thing that usually happens is you get angry and when you start getting angry, you have to listen to me carefully. You must get angry. Now, you don't want a directed at anyone. That's very important. Meaning you don't go to his house and drag him out of the house, even though that's a good fantasy to write it all down or you recorded and you curse him and you do that so that that's out of you because that's the thing that starts festering.


You go and find help with friends, church family, so you can speak about it and you can allow yourself to be a bit bitter about it and and nasty. You have to write the worst of your revenge fantasies and the worst of your your wishes so you can move on from that. That's super, super important. Yeah, but the more you go there, the quicker it will pass.


Then comes another wave of grief, the grief of your entire life having disappeared in a certain way. But then who are you when all of this is taken away? Hmm. And one thing I can tell you, just by looking at you, there's such strength in you and such power and resilience that's going to come to the surface and then you're going to become somebody who is free off of that thing that's held you in a certain kind of a situation.


Because even though you love him and even though you've devoted a long time to that marriage, there's parts of you that are really waiting to come out. And I know I can see it in your face. All that energy that was suppressed by the pain is going to come out and Trina is going to be a force to be reckoned with.


It's a process.


I think a lot of us believe that if we go into the feeling of the pain that will get stuck. I know that's always been something for me. You know, it's like don't go there because you might just get the pain, might just grab you and keep you. Yes, you're right. And so the idea of being able to understand that is OK to to go into it in the with the concept of moving through it.


And you really do have to let it out. You've all been there in some form or fashion.


And we just want you to know that our hearts are with you. And thank you so much for your testimony today. OK, thank you. Thank you so much, Katrina.


That's a devastating when you feel like everything your world is like.


Yes, it's gone. Yeah. Yeah.


There's something that I don't want to ignore either to for women when you get to that age. Yeah. You know, and you go through a major breakup like that and particularly with a person that you've been through, that you go through like I'm fifty seven, like, who's going to want me now?


And that's a reality. I don't, you know, skip over.


However, this is just a tiny little side note.


My first neighbor, when I moved to L.A. from Austria, was a woman who was in her late eighties and she was a concentration camp survivor. Wow. Leo, her name was and Leah every Tuesday went to the Fairfax Jewish Community Center. Four Square Dance. Yeah. And she found a boyfriend. And so on her 90th birthday, sole, her new boyfriend moved into the house. And here is how I newshole moved into the house. The Sears truck pulled up.


Out came the two single beds, in came a big new brass double bed and so moved in.


Then they walked hand in hand every day. That's a beautiful story.


Anybody who thinks that, you know, it's over that you'll never find.




On her name yesterday, by the way, the guy she moved in was at least 12 years younger than her. I mean, she was in his high 70s that I'm Norma Kamali.


I've been a fashion designer for over 50 years. And I'm so excited to tell you about my brand new book. Name of it is I Am Invincible.


I Am Invincible is a handbook for women that gives me the opportunity to share my experiences and tips about beauty, style, wellness and living your best life. These are solutions that you can use to go through each decade. When a woman feels good about herself, she is invincible.


You can find I am invincible wherever books are sold. And listen for more from me on some of your favorite podcasts. OK, so we're supposed to be sticking to the script, but we ain't because this is not what we do, is figure out the embryo and its age. Hey, we're giving a whole bunch of good, bad advice and a lot of bad redividing, trying to teach you how to say when, how and how much. Yes.


Now, that doesn't always have to apply to your sex life, lady. It can absolutely apply to your career unless your sex life is your career. And in this age of we're talking about a whole lot of sex. You know what I love to say? It's a of life and the love of money in relationships.


We're going to we're going to listen to our new show. We Talk Back every Thursday on the radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast.


So we have Eddie from L.A.. Hi, Eddie.


Hi. So I'm twenty seven and I'm a PhD student at USC.


I recently got out of a 14 month relationship with a man I thought I'd marry towards the end of our relationship. I caught him entertaining several other men on social media. I felt so betrayed. I found on his Instagram that he was inviting other men to date. And, you know, there's so much there was so much betrayal there that that at the very end warped my idea of who he was.


Yeah, I reached out to him recently and I never heard back, but it's been really difficult for me. So I'll have to reconcile this person who I thought I knew for over a year. And I sort of don't know what the reality is right now and I don't know how to get over this.


The real tough thing about this is that when you can say it, it just sits in your head. And it's so important to have the communication that you want to have. However, you don't need to have the conversation or the communication with him.


And so one of my personal tricks for myself, you write letters and don't write sentences and stuff, just write words.


This is a very specific process. I want to walk you through this. The first letter you write is a nasty, vicious say everything you never would say to a real person letter.


Got it. You write it, you put it somewhere and you just write and you write and you write and you might write the same letter for three, four or five days. If you can handwrite handwriting. There's something about writing by hand that doesn't happen here or on your phone.


But the important piece is that you don't rush it. So you write the letters till you feel ready to be done.


Make sure that you really, really, really address how it felt and tell him on the letter what a.


Thing that for however many it takes till you're somewhat clear, you'll write a letter that you could give him. Got it. Then what you do is you do a ritual, something that puts a full stop, make a strong into it. You take something of his and bury it or burn it to something where you for yourself go, OK, I am done.


One thing I want to ask to McCaleb, because I know in these kinds of situations when you have that kind of betrayal, you lose such a trust in yourself.


Totally. You know, I don't know. How could I how could I have missed this judge so greatly, you know what I mean?


How do you regain that trust in yourself to believe that the next time you won't do that to yourself again?


Well, here's a horrible truth. We don't misjudge you.




It's so, so empty.


So many new. Yeah, but we don't want to see it because we love and our heart wants one stab thing and we want that relationship. And he wanted that marriage. We know. We always know.


So so the learning isn't to become better at distinguishing, it's necessarily learning is to to listen to ourselves and not let our need for a certain fairy tale override what we know is right.


You can look at how do you read the red flags better next time. Why. And you can feel it and you can think back on when something felt fishy and you kind of were overriding it for the fact that this was going to be your life partner you were going to marry. Then the other thing that happens is every time we get a bit better at not overriding our own feelings around the people we attract get better because they can't pull the wool over our eyes.


Right. Honey, honestly, let's just be real. You have such a light. You have such a deep well of compassion within you. Yeah. And so many people are going to see that and they're going to want that.


Well, I've been a huge fan of yours forever. So if I hear, you know, well, I'll say that I'm going to find love again, like I'm more prone to believe it. You're a beauty, Eddie.


Just know that it's all about learning as we go. That's it. That's. Thank you so much.


Thank you, Eddie. Eddie.


Eddie, this pandemic that we've been dealing with, I mean, globally, we've all been affected. I feel like not one person has been able to escape.


A lot of expectations have been shattered. Yeah.


So we have kids, Donna and David from Inglewood, who have questions for McKayla.


Hey, look at your. You're welcome to the table. Thank you for having us. So what questions you have for McCaleb today? I met David a few years ago and we had the pleasure of being able to plan our wedding. We invited all the people from all across the country. People were going to travel. And on my bachelorette party two days before we got the call that the coronavirus shut down our entire event, almost like a kind of like a tidal wave had hit us with only 48 hours left.


We had to cancel all the vendors. The venue canceled on us. We had to call everyone that was going to try to travel.


We had paid for everything. We had gotten flowers. We did have a little bit of hope and we thought we could reschedule and not really knowing where the coronavirus was going to be. But here we are again, looking to cancel yet again. We're just a little emotionally drained and kind of I don't know really where to go from here. It was a heartbreaking kind of ordeal.


Yeah, that's a rough one. Yeah.


Here's something I can tell you that maybe is a bit of hope after like about thirty five thousand client hours in my lifetime. So I've seen a lot of people and I can tell you one thing, couples who face adversity together. Have the best chance of long term relationship in the way you're sitting there, the way she's leaning against you. David, you clearly have grown something in the adversity and in the joint loss. Often, you know, the big wedding takes on a life of its own and the real love and the real care get a little bit lost.


It's so beautiful because you kind of get to do it the other way around. Yes. Yes.


You get to deepen and sink in and make the commitment now between the two of you in lockdown with each other and you get to really celebrate your union for what it is, which is the two of you on the sofa.


And then when the time is right, you're going to have the big wedding. And I can promise you it's going to be much deeper. Yes. Because you come to it as a more mature couple. Yes. And it's not just going to be the fairytale, which is wonderful, but it's a fairy tale. Yeah. It's going to have the underpinning of your love for each other and the fact that you made it through the adversity. You didn't throw in the towel and break up and run off and do horrible things.


Right, sitting there together. That's real tragedy, it really is.


Remember the Amazing Race when they would have couples that have to go through this amazing race together and I go, if you want to get married through The Amazing Race and then if you make it across that finish line. Now, put on the wedding dress, the celebration, and that's what this reminds me of.


Yes, no, you've seen the worst of each other, so to speak, because I'm sure there were tears and tantrums and everything, I guess.


So you've seen the worst. Now you can have the best.


Yes. So what are you seeing? The two of you guys just emanate such joy and love for each other. So you know what? That's what marriage is all about. Yes. In my eyes, y'all already married, OK?


And this, too, shall pass. Yeah.


It really will one day be over and you will be able to get back to planning your wedding.


I can't wait to hear what the vows will be like on the actual wedding. Yes.


You know, it will be very different vows than what you had planned. That's true. And y'all know, Gammy loves a wedding. She's been married four times.


You got to dress. Yeah, I know I did. But after the pandemic, I don't know if I'm a fit back into that. All right, you guys, thank you so much for joining us today. We wish you the best as McKayla.


You always come with the gems every time. Every single time this is prize.


It's like, why am I surprised every single time? It's like we love having you here. And this was this was great. I learned a lot. So much as always. Well, I get to sit in front of you. Thank you. Those are spectacular. You got some hot pants today. Thank you. Yeah, chameleon chic. It it's like it's a take away from the foot.


I'm a fan of fancy shoes, and this surgery is like you'll be back for them. Yeah. You'll be back next year. Shoes coming back to the fancy shoes. To join the red table, talk family and become a part of the conversation, follow us at Facebook, dotcom slash red table talk. Thanks for listening to this episode of Red Tablecloth podcast produced by Facebook Watch Westbrooke Audio and I heart radio.


I've got one word for you, Tom Cruise on this new weekly podcast meeting, Tom Cruise. We're going to talk about Tom Cruise. Everyone who's met him is an amazing story to tell. Hey, everybody. I'm Jeff Meacham of TV's Blackfish. I'm Joel Johnston from the marvelous Mrs. Masel. We are inspired by Tom Cruise, but we've never actually met Tom Cruise. But after we talk to some people who have, maybe we finally will. It's not impossible.


Listen to meeting Tom Cruise on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.


Ever wonder what kind of job you would have if you were born in a different time? You're in luck because Jobs Elite is a new podcast that just may have an answer for you. I'm Helen Hunt.


And I'm Matt Beith.


Take a spin through workplaces of the past as we scout history's most interesting jobs and every episode from the forgotten jobs of history to obscure occupations that still survive will talk with an expert to answer the burning questions, and you'll discover some of the most fascinating and unusual ways people have made a living through the centuries.


And who knows, maybe you'll find a job you love as a town crier or switchboard operator, a food taster or an MTV veejay you can listen to Jobs leads on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.