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Friends Dancing with the Stars, partners, and now podcast hosts Backstreet Boys, A.J. McLean and Cheryl Burke bring you pretty messed up.


The show talks about pretty much anything, everything. Love, life, drugs, sex, rock and roll, you name it. Pretty messed up. Doesn't hold back. It's a hot mess with a guidance, mentorship and watchful eye of their friend Rene Elizondo. We get pretty deep and we just talk about everything. Listen to pretty messed up on the radio app or wherever you get your podcasts.


I'm Alec Baldwin, delighted to announce that my podcast, Here's the Thing, will launch on Aykut Radio on January 12th. It's my chance to talk to artists, policy makers and performers. Don't miss our first show with actress Kristen Bell. If you like listening as much as I like talking to interesting people. Take a listen on. Here's the thing, dawg, and subscribe now on the Heart app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.


Hey, fam, I'm Jada Pinkett Smith, and this is the Red Tablecloth podcast, all your favorite episodes from the Facebook Watch show in audio produced by Westbrooke Audio and I Heart Radio. Please don't forget to write and review on Apple podcast. The Smith household has been buzzing on this red table talk. I'm with you in the pain of coming. Oh my God. Like I never even saw it that way. I forgive you. Real talk with a brilliant Renee Brown.


You do not want to talk about this. I'm an to you are better producing. Wow. But best selling books.


Over 100 million views for her groundbreaking talks. That is it.


My mind was blown. She has spent two decades studying shame, guilt and vulnerability.


Find out how they may be holding you back. This is about you. This is about who you want to be.


This is what's so powerful about your show. You would never have talked about this 50 years ago. All right, this is a special one, lady and girl, Brittany Brown, finally coming. We've been trying to have Brittney forever. I'm so excited that she's going to be a good one. No, she's amazing.


For me, it's perfect timing. Yes. Perfect. Yeah. Oh, yeah.


Because some things have been going on in games like, oh, you you need a little assistance here, OK. All right. Let's walk to the ladies.


My whole household is buzzing. OK, we have been looking forward to this red table for a long time. Our special guest is beloved and brilliant and we've been writing our burning questions for her all week.


Welcome, Brittney. Well, first of all, thank you for coming. I cannot tell you the Smith household love has been buzzing. I think if let me tell you, you will get so excited. Last night when I told him that you were I guess she's coming here, he wanted me to tell you that he's such a big fan and he loves the story that you tell about your husband and the lake. Yeah, man.


Yeah. This sentence that's been floating in my data for years kept coming to my head, which is the story I'm telling myself.


Yes, my husband was being weird to me in the lake and it was really long. It was just kind of a long swim. And I had a Speedo and we were working out and we're both competitive swimmers. And I hadn't worn a Speedo and a lot of years. And I was trying to connect with him and he kept kind of blowing me off. And so the story I was making up is that it was either like, oh, my God, she does not rock a Speedo like she did twenty five years and two kids ago or.


She's old. And so I just looked at her and I said, look, the story I'm telling myself right now is that you think I look awful or you think I'm old. And it turned out that he was actually in the middle of a panic attack on the lake that day. He was having his own struggles. Appearance and body image are still the number one shame triggers for women. So when we make up stories, they're often about that.


When I first heard that story, it was like, wow, like my mind was blown.


We just can't see what the other person is feeling or thinking.


We make up stories in the stories. We make up our self protective in nature.


And that's that's the thing. Yes, I was the person that would have the story in my head and claim it as true and keep it. Yeah, right.


And I'm making decisions based on it.


When I got the courage to at least be vulnerable enough to talk about the story in my head, I got to see the power of vulnerability.


OK, we keep on talking about that word. Is there a simple way for you to just break down what that the word means?


Vulnerability. Yes.


And there are a lot of complicated V words, and it's one of the most complicated words. Yes.


So the definition of vulnerability is the emotion that we experience in times of uncertainty, risk and emotional exposure. Examples, vulnerability. The first date after my divorce. Yeah.


Saying I love you first trying to get pregnant after my second miscarriage. I knew early on in my work that vulnerability was the birthplace of courage. I knew that courage didn't exist without it. And so when you think about what you all do, read Tabletop uncertain, you don't know the way the conversation is going to go.


Totally risk an emotional exposure.


Yeah. Yeah. So you got them all three. I'll tell you, I will definitely be trying to practice vulnerability over here.


I, I've definitely had some moments where I've been at this table going, what do I say this.


Do I say this, do I say when was the last time that you felt like you would be most vulnerable? Definitely when I talked about my self-harm, I honestly feel like I lost my sanity at one point.


OK, really? Yeah, it was after that whole with my hair thing. Right. And I was kind of like just in this gray area of like.


Who am I like, is there like do I have a purpose and I was just like plunged into this like black hole and I was like cutting myself without cutting yourself wear on my wrist.


I mean, you can't even see it, but like there's still a little something there, but, like, totally lost my sanity for a moment there.


Wow. Looking back, it makes me feel even stronger because so many people deemed me or talk to me and were like, wow, like that really helped me with that.


You for me, the one on addiction, that was a power and.


That got it, but. They can do it, yeah, through all of. And I just had let go, I go. And surrender, yeah. So that I could see what he was up killing.


You know, it was really one where I felt really exposed. Yeah.


What about you? I would say he would be the last tell we did.


We're going to start with this is a very personal journey that became very public. Yes, absolutely.


Full blast. Yeah. No, I want to know what it has been feeling and just the total breakdown of any mask that you know. But I was put much courage. I want to put it on the table. Yes, ma'am. I'm so proud of you as to be able to see you and Dad do that. For me, that was like, OK, that's the real deal.


That's real love. Like when you can be like, I'm with you, I'm going to stand by you and I'm going to hold your hand because I love you. Right. That's what we do.


And that that's really important. Yeah, but then, you know, when I'm talking about all this Briney, then I start thinking about I get real caught up and have always been kind of overly concerned with what other people think of me.


I've been sober for 20. Oh, my God. Twenty four years and a lot of times I have to literally choose, am I going to choose my recovery or am I going to choose making people I don't even know feel better? And then you find a quote and it changes your life that it really there was my life before that and my life after. The quote is, it's not the critic who counts, it's not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done it better.


The credit actually belongs to the man in the arena whose face is marred with sweat and dust, blood, who strives valiantly, who airs again and again and again, and who in the end. While I'll change this, she may know the triumph of high achievement. At least when she fails, she's daring greatly. That quote is so powerful, powerful, and it's to me three things happen.


One, I'm going to live my life in the arena. I'm going to be brave with my life. And that means choosing courage over comfort and pissing some people off sometimes. But I'm just not here for your purpose.


I'm here for mine, too. That quote is everything I've ever learned in 20 years of research about vulnerability. Vulnerability is not weakness. It's the courage to show up and be real when you can't control the outcome or what people think.




And then the last one that really, I think, really set me free in a most dangerous way. But I really love it is. If you are not in the arena getting your ass kicked on occasion, I'm not interested in your feedback on that. That right there. It's like, don't you not even part of this conversation? Because if you actually are standing in that arena, right, you this will be a whole different thing. Right. One of the things I wanted to ask you to bring a lot of times when we're getting acquainted with vulnerability, it tends to be.


Daunting what would be some of the lessons that you could offer to people in those moments?


The number one thing I've learned is, one, we don't share vulnerability with everyone. We share our stories with people who have earned the right to hear them. So our vulnerability is not for everybody. Right. That's a privilege to hear that. Right. Number two, always examine your intention for sharing. Wow.


Because and this is a big one for me, I never share something that's vulnerable to me.


Looking for a response, yeah, my healing has to be in my sharing, not what I hear about.


OK, let's stop right there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right there.


Because that is it. That is it. So that when one is sharing their vulnerability, it is towards one's own healing and personal growth period. So no matter what the response may be, no matter how people react, at the end of the day, you're saying the fact that you took that step yet is the win. And that's the thing to hold on to. Right.


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From contact tracing to vaccines to social and racial justice.


We may not have all the answers, but you deserve to know what goes on in your neighborhood and the decisions that affect you and your family's health. I'm Justin Beck. Join me and my co-host, Katherine and Deepti.


As we seek truth in health. Contact Worlds podcast is the voice of the people and your opportunity to improve public health and health equity. So subscribe to contact World and tell your friends, because we all deserve the right information, not misinformation. Visit contact Outworld. To learn more, listen to Contact World, the podcast on the I Heart Radio Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.


Got it right. Never tie your growth or your win to an outcome you can't control.


There it is. That's it. That's right. That's it.


So I know, Willow, you you were really interested in Rene's work around shame, guilt and shame.


The difference between shame and guilt is the difference between I am bad and I did something bad. So you go out on Thursday night, you drink too much or hungover, and you miss a really important meeting at work Friday morning. And your self talk is God, I'm an idiot. I'm such a loser. I'm such I'm such a zero shame or guilt. I would say shame on South, I'm I'm an idiot. I'm a loser. The guilt self talk is I can't believe I did that.


That was a stupid thing to do. Not I am stupid, but that was a stupid thing to do, and here's the reason why the difference is huge.


Shame is positively correlated with violence, addiction, aggression, eating disorders, suicide, bullying.


I mean, across the board in my field, we call it the master of motion.


Not only is guilt not correlated with those outcomes, guilt seems to be a protective factor against those outcomes. Meaning if I am able to separate myself from a behavior and say, you know, I get back an F on a paper, I'm not stupid, but not studying last night was stupid.


And so guilt versus shame is it's it's everything.


This is so interesting because I just had an experience in my own personal life that I went through something exactly like that. And I didn't even realize that I was experiencing both shame and guilt. Mm hmm. And Rodney actually was and I didn't even realize he was doing it at the time until you just described Rodney. Her husband is my husband.


So he was like, well, you did a bad thing.


You're not a bad person. Right.


What Rodney did, that intervention is life changing. One of the things we've learned in the last probably, let's say, five years, the brain processes social pain exactly like it processes physical pain.


So if you spilled boiling coffee on your hand, the same part of your brain lights up as if I shame you or humiliate you. We're not wired for it, it destroys us. Wow. Wow. Why do people like shaming other people so much?


Because it feels great, because when we're in pain, it is a very lethal weapon for discharging our own pain and suffering.


Shame is a tool of oppression, belittling, humiliating, dehumanizing. The problem, what we don't understand is shame doesn't just destroy the victim of it. Shame destroys the person who uses it.


Oh, and so. Yeah, you know what I know. Yes.


You know, I think of I rarely ever talk about this without getting emotional, but I was raised in a very shame based family. That was a parenting tool. Because let me tell you something. You can change a child's behavior on a dime. Oh, it's so true, had you not had a look that could just diminish your kids. I mean like this because for children, shame is the threat of being unlovable.


And so for children from newborns through about fourth or fifth grade, being unlovable actually means dying.


So shame is the threat of not being caregiving. Yeah, I can think about the times when I have used shame with one of my children and it's the most devastating thing I can think of. And we're most likely to shame our children or anyone around us that has less power than us when we are either scared. Yeah. Or we're in our own shame.


Yeah, it's something we're taught, like the way that you just express that in parenting. I'm like, oh my God. Like, I never even saw it that way. But I did really try, especially in raising Willo in trying not to put shame around her social development, you know, trying to raise a young woman and what a young woman goes through but not recognizing. How detrimental that is using shame as a parenting tool? Yeah, it's OK.


Yeah, it's I can remember you forgive me. I do because I remember, but I forgive you. I do.


As an example, when I was younger, like, I would just get super emotional and like, I still get super emotional now, but you would look at me and you would just be like, yeah, you can cry but like do it, like go to your room and do it over there and like like you pushing me away for crying was like, yeah, I'm a bad person for crying.


Yeah. I did have a lot of those moments where I was like, oh no, no, no, no, no, we're not going to do that.


But a lot to do with me not being able to handle my own to you totally.


Do you see that in something in how I raised you? Because, I mean, I definitely was the kind of parent that we had no vulnerability. What we couldn't, though, you know, just an hour.


I mean, but I was she was talking about the look. Oh, yeah. Oh, I don't know how we did that, but that's all it took. No, we were so good at that. And our family. All of us. Oh, so good. Right. You know, she gave me that either. And I was like, I'm growing. Why is my heart palpitating? She gave me the look and I'm like, looking at her.


And I'm like, but I'm grown, but I'm grown. And my heart's like, oh, I am grown, I am limitless.


And I have I have that look and I'm just going to admit it here for everybody. I can be scary when I'm scared. Yeah. I had to check myself when I'm scared.


I did look the other day.


My husband said that makes my eyes water like I'm afraid when you do that look, because it's like, look, I had growing up, like it's like the get your act together or else right now or else as well was don't collapse. Look at me and say, don't collapse. And I would be looking at him like, yeah.


And trying not to break down like this is what's so powerful about your show that you would never have talked about this 50 years ago?


Yeah, absolutely not. Right. I mean, and let me tell you something else. Had you not shamed your children, you would have been shamed by your friends.


And one of my favorite people in the world is my grandmother, Ellen. She died, but I named my daughter after her. And there's a picture of her that I had that I keep very close by. She's nine months pregnant and she's got a cigarette in one hand and a melamine ashtray balancing on her big belly.


It reminds me that don't hold people responsible for information they didn't have.


People were mostly doing the very best they could, which some people just terrible people.


Yes. But in this case, people use shame because it was how we parent.


I'm actually glad, though, because I was over the top at some points in my in my childhood. I do recognize those moments. And it just had a lot to do with me not being able to handle my own vulnerability at that time, just growing up in the environments we grew up, you know, and it's a different playing field now because I think we equated being vulnerable with being weak and. Yeah, not just weak. Dangerous.


Yeah, yeah. We would be negligent not to talk about this safety as a prerequisite for vulnerability. Yeah.


And so I can assure you that as a white woman I have way more permission to be vulnerable.


Right. Than a black person. Any person of color. White privilege.


Is real, and taking the armor off in this country for everyone is not safe.


Yeah, that's hugely important. Trauma kills vulnerability. Yeah. Whether that trauma is abuse or neglect or racism or poverty or homophobia, it makes vulnerability dangerous. Right.


For me, in my own personal experience, I realize that I've had to learn how to create safety within.


If you could give just a little bit around how one can feel safe enough with themselves. This came up so much in our research on trust.


It kind of shocked me. What we know from the data is that when we experience a setback or a failure or a heartbreak, the first casualty of that is self trust. So we're like, I don't trust myself anymore to take care of myself, to make the right decisions. I have a lot of that. Yeah. Yeah, it's hard. And the biggest threat to self trust is do I choose to betray myself over making someone else feel uncomfortable or disappointed.


So every time we choose ourselves, we have to stop and recognize it. Got it. Like I chose to take care of me right now.


I'm Alec Baldwin, delighted to announce that my podcast, Here's The Thing, will launch on I Heart Radio January 12th. It's my chance to talk to artists, policy makers and performers. These conversations have been a highlight for me, and now I hope they will be for you, too. Don't miss our first shows with actress Kristen Bell.


My husband and I disagree on 99 percent of things in the world. We argue all the time, but we do not go to bed angry and we have a beautiful marriage. Former governor of Vermont Howard Dean.


I'm actually for going back to the way the original Congress was, which is the way the legislature is in Vermont is this is not a full time job. You better have another employment.


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And best selling author Isabel Wilkerson.


People come up to me of all different backgrounds. I would say to me, I had no idea that this happened in our country.


If you like listening as much as I like talking with interesting people, go to here's the thing, Doug, and subscribe now on the iPad app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.


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So you're saying every choice that you make and taking care of yourself slowly builds that internal self trust that makes all the sense in the world.


But let me ask this, though, Ken. Is there ever a time where there's too much of that? Because sometimes I think that you take on so much?


Well, I think that's part of my co-dependency as well, because I don't want to burden anybody. OK, right. You know, I'm yeah, I want to help everybody, but I damn sure don't want anybody to feel like they got to help me.


Yeah. You know, you're right. So is it. But now let's talk about that. Could you just put your hand. Let's talk about that for a sec. So is that not you do not want to talk about this. You do not want to talk about this. We should go on. You are going to piss you off. You should go to the next topic. I'm going to walk us all the way back to the uncomfortable part, OK?


All right. This is terrible. This is me. So I'm with you in the pain that's coming, OK? So any strength? Out of whack can become a form of armor. Yeah, yeah, independence.


Is great. But it's actually not neurobiological how we're wired, we're actually wired for interdependence, not codependents and not dependence, but interdependence, we need each other. We're not meant to do it alone. It's not how we're built. So the problem with the helper's.


I'll just I'll talk about me is that. If you can't receive help. With an open heart, you're never really giving it with an open heart. I know. You better predicting now, I mean, it is hard because what that means, so when I when that emerge from the data, I was like, oh, if you like, I'm out right now. Like, this is just what does.


Yeah, because what happens is I was like. That's not true because I'm the world's best helper. I help everybody, then what I realized was I absolutely attach value to being the helper.


Oh yeah, absolutely.


Think there's more value in being the helper than being the helped. Right. That used to be like, if I'm not helping. What value do I owe? That's that was me. Why is that my problem too? That's me. That has a self-worth issue.


That's a that's a self worth issue. And so then I started asking for help. I'm the oldest of four and so on. The one that anything anybody needs anything until I fell apart and then I couldn't do it and I had to ask for help. And then I realized, wow, I'm surrounded by loving, capable, more capable than me and some. And then I started receiving help and realized that takes a lot more vulnerability.


Oh, well, I got to start working on that thing because I don't I don't ask for help. I will definitely say in my relationship, I have to say that Will has just he just refuses not to help. He's just like, I don't care. I'm going to be there because you need me, even if you don't know it. Right. I'm going to inject myself in this because you need me. I'm like, no, no, no, no.


I got this. I don't want you doing anything is like, yeah, OK. Yeah, I'll be right back.


Let me just let me just bring in Steve the same way.


Let me just bring on pissed off part to raise your hand if you're perpetually pissed off because they're not doing enough and you're but you're not asking for anything but like, you know, like, you know, their resentment.


But this is armor Ros's I'm so scared to.


Yeah, totally.


Before we go, Britney, I've got two family members really quick that we're like there is no way that you are going to have Britney come on and we can ask some questions. They have been here quarantining with so is my sister in law and my niece, Jay. You guys here? Was. Is my niece, Jade, and this is my sister in law, Cherish, so honored to meet you. So, so, so honored. I just love how transparent you are.


So you want to go first? Yes. So I am a wife and a mother of three, and my entire life has been spent catering to the needs of my entire family and friends and everyone around. And I feel like I've always put everybody else before myself. And so now I feel like I'm low key going into like a mid-life crisis because I'm finally seeing and understanding how I have to put myself first. I feel guilty sometimes because I feel like I'm being selfish and neglecting other feelings of my family.


The journey that you're talking about was the hardest work maybe that I've ever done in my life.


I have to agree. And Carl Young has this really powerful quote. The greatest tragedy for a child is the unlived life of a parent.


Yeah. And what you're trying to do right now is not going to be easy.


The pushback is going to be real, maybe less so from your your kids and your partner, but definitely the world around you, because the world around you is really benefiting from you in this role of taking care of everything and everyone.


We can't really give what we don't have.


You've got to have a full, beautiful inner life that is for no one else but you.


Yeah. In order to give to anyone else. Yeah. And you've got to ask for what you need. And that is the biggest gift you'll ever give your children is letting them observe your path to wholeness.


Yeah. And you're going to terrify some people with your own authenticity. But, man, will you feel alive? Yeah, and you're in a journey toward wholeness, so don't look at it as selfishness, see it as making yourself whole.


Thank you. Yeah, that's that's good. That's why I'm so glad that you are making yourself in such a beautiful explanation.


I want to make sure it's really there is no midlife crisis. Yes, right. It's a midlife unraveling that is real. And it's the universe grabbing us by the shoulders at midlife and saying, wake up. The gifts I gave to you are not being used. And not using these gifts is not benign. You will pay for it. That's real talk right there. All about it. It's a universal shoulder shake.




Not a loving kind like that. I wanted to ask the question of social media trying to just form this perfect person. You start to look at other people's relationships compared to each other, a sense like what are they doing that I'm not doing? What advice would you give to those millennials that are struggling secretly?


Mm hmm.


So I got to tell you, and I know this is not popular, I'm a big fan of millennials and Gen Xers.


Oh, wow. OK, what is there to be fans of?


That's my question now, because I'm like, yeah, no, you know why we broke our contract with them as adults, we're raising a bunch of kids on active shooter drills.


This is the first generation of people saying, oh, they actually don't know the grown ups don't know what they're doing. Like we're winging it. Yeah. And so they're they're calling all kinds of stuff into question.


And I don't like the whole millennials are overprotected because at the same time that's happening with mostly white and wealthy kids, there's whole groups of millennials and Gen Zaire's who have been completely underserved and under protected.


Right. I think that's a dangerous soire.


I think these are mostly just young adults saying we want something different and we don't really trust you.


Yeah, that's so true. My response to that is, damn, y'all got good judgment. Like, look outside, it's a dumpster fire.


You know, look at the White House, look at the fires, look at covid.


And so I think for millennials, they feel untethered. Yeah. Ground yourself is what I would say. You ground yourself and reality check and what you're doing.


The cure to the Instagram thing and the I am highly triggered is plant your feet and find some purpose.




Damn, that's so I'll just plant your feet, find some purpose and let go of the notion that you are going to press into your purpose while pleasing people. That is not going to ever happen.


You know, we need to let kids experience adversity. Adversity made me strong.


I'm tough as nails. Like, look, things go bad. We get into a street fight. You want me on your side? Trust me, I definitely want this table. Yeah.


So, yeah, adversity is helpful to build courage and stamina, but we don't need trauma.


Mm. Trauma doesn't build tough people.


Trauma sets people back. Yeah. What we've got is a generation or two of kids that were raised with protection from adversity but too much trauma and so true.


And the Instagram stuff is just the symptom of not being grounded in what's real and what's important. Yes.


Rene, I want you to know. But this film, this film in London, before we had this conversation, but now we are utterly obsessed. You are amazing. We love you. Thank you so much.


You have to invite me back to the red table when I get back on plane. Are you kidding me? Now move down. Real talk. Thank you. Wow. That was about was amazing. Hey, everyone, we are so excited to bring you an all new red table talk series with the iconic queen, Gloria Estefan. I promise you will love, love, love this new series, Free.


Well, come on, baby. Sit in number six. Daniel, I said Miami like, so the energy here is very huge and we've had a myriad of stars stay here. The Nero share, Jaylo, Oprah and your godfather Quincy Jones came. And the ghost that lives here is famous, too. This is my niece, Lily. She is Esther Funnymen. This is my daughter Emily. And she is Esther Fresh. And I am as the fierce.


Everything is special about Red Tabletop, BASF, Latina's, maybe three different women, three different generations, three different opinions.


We are so honest when we come to the table, Liliya Stephan, my niece is a beloved Latino TV star, devoted mother of two, and she is fun, fun, funny.


I hope we do it right. You will do it right. Who is the biggest drama queen? I was born with the. Emily Estevan. My daughter is a gifted musician. She's outspoken and a powerful voice of her generation. When I lay down the law, zip it. I'm worried that one. I'm a performer. I've been married 42 years. I'm the mother of two. I have one grandson, five dogs, and I am a survivor.


Thank you.


We are proud to present red tabletop Stephane's table, to join the red table, talk family and become a part of the conversation, follow us at Facebook. Dot com slash red tabletop. Thanks for listening to this episode of Red Tablecloth podcast produced by Facebook.


Watch Westbrooke Audio and I Heart Radio Contact World as a technology and media company dedicated to improving public health.


And our podcast is our opportunity to dive into hot topics that are relevant to you, from contact tracing to vaccines to social and racial justice. We may not have all the answers, but you deserve to know what goes on in your neighborhood and the decisions that affect you and your family's health. I'm Justin Beck. Join me and my co-host, Katherine and Deepti.


As we seek truth and help, listen to Contact World, the podcast on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.


I'm Alec Baldwin, delighted to announce that my podcast, Here's The Thing, will launch on I Heart Radio on January 12th. It's my chance to talk to artists, policy makers and performers. Don't miss our first show with actress Kristen Bell. If you like listening as much as I like talking to interesting people. Take a listen on. Here's the thing, dawg, and subscribe now on the I Heart app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.