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I left myself vulnerable to be taken advantage of, I felt gross, and I'm just laying there like I don't want to do this. Something happened to me a couple of months ago. It's so hard to talk about it. I didn't say yes, but I also didn't say no. I just let it happen. I just feel like I'm still very confused about this. Gray area of concern for me is like no is no.
I don't understand how you confused about it. Have you've had a sexual experience that was not consensual? I have.
OK, but it was also with your dad, actually. This may shock you, but we took a poll and every woman we asked admitted they have had unwanted sex. Wow, sexual consent is a hot button issue.
Opinions and feelings can get really, really, really hot about this one.
And remember that all women don't have the same opinion, nor do we have two opinions varied.
There's a difference between being raped. Right, yes, versus being in situations that create these kind of gray areas of nonconsensual, definitely, I will definitely say as a woman I.
Definitely got into some situations where I didn't vocalize in a way that I should have, I mean, not necessarily understanding the dynamics, you go further than you want to and then you feel like it's too late to stop, OK?
For me, it's like no is no. Yeah. It's really in my mind. Before we started even talking about it, I was like, well, what is there to even talk about? Because no means no.
So game you feel like nowhere in your history in regards to sexual intimacy, have you felt like you've had a sexual experience that was not necessarily consensual or was kind of in that gray area?
I have. I have. OK, but it was also with my husband. Oh, your dad, actually. So that's really great. That is great. But really, you do hear that a lot, so you're basically saying you had nonconsensual sex with my father so that he forced himself upon you?
Yeah, but I mean, it was, you know. Yeah. Well, why do you say it like that? Yeah, I don't really want to go into more details on camera about that. I got it. Yeah.
Women are not really allowed to be vocal around sex in regards to what pleases them and what this pleases. Exactly right. So any conversation around sex for a woman is like.
It's a hot area, so even if you try to talk to your mother about it, she usually doesn't even want to talk to you about it in detail, you know what I'm saying? And usually it's like, don't put yourself in that situation or you should be having sex anyway, right. Or you get that and you get all of that. So now you don't really have the information that you don't know the game, because one of the things that I realized, too, was like a boys game is to get you to.
Yes. Yes. So he's got to be persistent. He's going to be, like, manipulative at times. He's a hunter. You got to know what the game is. Don't get in the game or want you in the game. You really got to know, like, you got to know your boundaries and you got to know how he will get into conversations about that all the time because he's like if she goes to the hotel room, she knows what's up.
No, she doesn't.
I promise. Not all the time. I know I don't agree with you 100 percent differently than that.
I really do feel like if she goes to the hotel room, let's say maybe she's like, oh, I want to spend more time, maybe she's not thinking like, oh, it's going to go there straight away, but it has to be in her mind.
But you're not thinking in the same way he is, especially men who are not sexually disciplined, in my opinion, tend to have a very predatorial it's just primal.
It's like young guys don't know that they're trying to figure it out.
All they know is that they have this strong drive and they want you now. Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes sense, but I still don't get past the responsibility of the young lady to be nice for the young ladies aren't supposed to be responsible. What I'm saying is that young ladies are not prepared.
They're not. So where are you supposed to learn it? You and I never had a conversation about that didn't. But I wasn't prepared, but that's what I'm trying to say. So we're expecting these young girls to just know. And that's ridiculous. And we're expecting these young boys to just know some kind of way from somehow I knew I didn't get prepared for my mother, but I knew and I was never in a position or a circumstance that I couldn't take care of myself, that I felt like I couldn't say no or put on a although like sometimes I'm talking about the more subtle stuff I'm talking about when you're with somebody, you know, because there have been times where I'm like, oh, was that disrespectful?
Sometimes you can't read the situation, you know what I mean?
Or you don't know how you misread it.
A lot of times I would misread it and I'd be like, oh, I'm in something right now. I'm in something right now. Right. And so that's why with Willow, I don't know you. OK?
I just want to jump in on that, because you definitely prepared me for the danger. Yeah. Men, when I was younger, it was like men are dangerous.
First of all, you know, you didn't tell me that the way that you would talk to me. I would in my little brain. Yes, my brain said men equal danger. So you're becoming a young lady because she wanted to hang out with God, right? Right.
They were older than her by herself. And I'm like, all right, everybody, some of those conversations, there's no you hanging out with nobody alone. I was always very aware of the danger of men.
And I don't even want to say the danger of men. We'll say the danger of the undisciplined male sexual mind.
That's different. Yeah. I don't want to put a blanket on men like that because that's not fit.
It can be dangerous. Yes. And that's what you made very clear. Yes, I did. Yes. I thought you made it.
No, I just feel like I'm still very confused about this gray area of of concern.
I really do, I think understand how you confused about it. When we just had agreement on the fact that young women are not educated, I don't think men or women are educated enough because men are thinking, you know, the game like Will. He's like, you know, what's up? And I'm thinking, no, you're playing my game. We're just going to go up here. We're going to talk. We can have a good time. We're going to connect more.
But right. But he's thinking in his mind, well, if you spend enough time with me alone, then that means a yes is available. So I'm going to keep going for the yes.
And I'm thinking, oh, no, I like you. You make me laugh.
I'm not thinking that sex is an absolute in his mind because I'm not there, but it certainly is a possibility.
And just the fact that it's a possibility. Right.
Puts you in a situation where you have to know where you're going, what you're doing, who you're going with and what your boundaries are. Women need to understand a male mind around sexuality and men need an understanding of a female's mind around sexuality.
There's a lot of misunderstanding, like a lot of men feel like if I buy you this drink, that's a signal. If you decide to let me take you home, that's a signal. If you decide to let me come into your house and spend more time with you, that's a signal for him. That could be a communication going towards something. And that's not necessarily what she's going for.
Does that make sense?
It makes sense, but she needs to be a little bit more clear. I understand that. First of all, I didn't grow up with a father or brother.
So I had a lot to learn, a lot to learn in regards to the male mind, in regards to intimacy and sex.
Willow grew up with brothers, so she got to kind of see it firsthand. Right. It was always very apparent to me, maybe not in the most healthy way, that sex is always on a man's mind.
So you have to protect yourself and you have to be very clear and very aware and not put yourself in a situation where you can be victimized. That was extremely clear to me from a young age. Well, she had an education. Exactly. And I didn't have that education. So I was constantly putting myself in situations that I didn't need to be in. If I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't have even been drunk at college parties.
I left myself vulnerable to be taken advantage of.
Those things happen. You put yourself in more of a vulnerable situation for the state of mind. You're susceptible to those things when you're inebriated. So this is what makes it complicated. You know, being in a in a situation with somebody of like, oh, my God, I went too far, but I'm afraid to say no. And then I go through with it and I hate that I did it. What I don't understand why. What I'm just not what you want, but I'm just saying there's no understand.
These complex areas of sex and trying to get understanding, even when we educate young girls of the do's and don'ts, you know, really trying to break down that, if you don't understand, he damn sure done.
OK, there you go. So this is a subject that is very important to our dear friend, Rumer Willis. What did you see in your mother that you felt was a reflection? A lot of the just like unworthiness. Like there's something innately about me that I have to earn love from people and constantly prove myself that and a lot of the stuff with men. She was carrying my the weight of my issue.
The last time she was here, she was like, you guys need to have a show about consent. And so here we are.
Are you hearing our struggle? I hear you. Oh, my God. It's so interesting because there's so much of this that is so high octane. Absolutely.
To me, the issue is when you're young, you're taught. All right. Well, if you have sex, then you're going to get pregnant or STD guys are boosted up. They're like, yeah, if you can go and get this girl, that's great. And there's such shame around sexuality at all. And it's all about men having the power. Yeah.
And oh, if someone likes you, if a guy likes you, that's great. So don't do anything that would potentially mess that up. I would get myself into a situation and at some point I had learned that if someone wants values me sexually or I feel like they desire me, then they are entitled to me. Wow. When I was like 14 because I was so shamed, like when all those blogs came out about how I looked. Right.
How my face looked, then my idea was that, oh well then if I'm desired sexually, then I'm some I have value. And I think we now have to be honest with you. It really makes sense.
I went through that stage too, because I was always so petite.
I wasn't always the girl. So when you had, like, that gaze, you know, it was it's like a drug.
It was a drug.
You know, I did get caught up in that a little bit when I came back to L.A. when I was like 15 or 16, everyone out here was already having sex. Right. They didn't put pressure on me, but I did because I felt so inexperienced and like I just needed to catch up.
When I lost my virginity when I was 18, I was more concerned with the shame that I was feeling at not having done it. I was not abused or it wasn't rape, but I didn't say yes. I wasn't gung ho about it. But I also didn't say no. I just let it happen. He was older and took advantage but and didn't check in.
That's where I feel like the man's responsibility is no means no. But what if you can't say no way? What if you're in a position and you're going, I can't express no because I've never done that.
Why? A lot of men feel like, well, if we're here and we're doing this year down, well, it's so hard to talk about it.
Even since I brought this forward to I had such a shift in perspective of trying to get out of like a victim mentality and not just placing blame on men and saying they are responsible and they should be doing this because in every situation that I've been uncomfortable in, it is my responsibility to speak up.
If I could add confusion of where the kid comes from, I'm telling you, I like something happened to me a couple of months ago and I hung out with this person for a little while. We were kissing outside and I said, Do you want to come in for a minute? And when I asked you to come in my house, that doesn't mean that I'm saying that you can get me naked. That doesn't mean that I'm saying you can do this.
I'm saying you can come into my house.
And as soon as I got into my house, it was like hands over. Yes. And all my clothes off. And then I just froze, really. I completely froze. And I had I even have so much shame about bringing that up because I feel like I'm such this empowered, strong person. But even I couldn't do it. Could not say no, I could not say I'm uncomfortable. I couldn't say this is too fast. I'm not ready for this.
Right. This is where I think it's on the male side responsibility.
There was no awareness from him of my discomfort. Even if I couldn't say anything.
I was obviously uncomfortable and trying to shut it down, even though I couldn't say anything. And it was just it's like if you come in the house or that you get a free pass to all of it.
Yeah. So we have another guest with us.
You may know Amber Rose is the former stripper turned model, actress and activist, or the ex-wife of Wiz Khalifa and mother of two young son, Sebastian and Slash.
But today, Amber is an outspoken advocate against sexual injustice and continues to speak out on consent, an issue very personal to her.
You're welcome. Thank you. So, Amber, what is your personal story when it comes to consent? I was in a relationship for two years. I had consensual sex plenty of times during that relationship. I don't want to be with him anymore. I told him that I was leaving and he didn't want to hear that. He ripped my clothes off. I felt like felt gross. I felt I felt I was taken advantage of. And it was terrible.
And then he went downstairs and eat breakfast like he didn't do anything. So the grey area and that situation is. I had sex with him so many times in these two years, I didn't fully understand what had happened. But I know what I felt like after. And then I also remember being younger, you know, I would maybe take a guy too far, right. And be like, oh, let me just put the head in my hand.
And I want to not just a little bit. And then it's full of I'm just laying there like I don't want to do this.
Right. We've had. Have you ever had the experience?
I'm curious where it's easier to just let it finish than say stop. Yeah. Yeah.
I think every woman has been through that and that situation. Do you think that he caught a vibe that you didn't want to do anything?
Maybe. But maybe I was. I mean, in my mind, because I don't want it to happen, I'm thinking, how can you not see that if somebody if you want to have sex with someone. Right. You're going to be touching them. You're going to be on top of them rolling around with them. If that wasn't what you were doing, the man knows that you're not with it. He's just taking advantage of the fact that he has you.
And this feels bad to say no.
And I've been in those situations where I'm like, what took him too far? I got the condom on fine, you know?
And I really and he knew I didn't want to weigh any situation I've been in. Even when I felt that there was maybe a man who took advantage, I still blame myself.
I still went home and said, I can't believe like, why didn't I say anything? I, like, punished myself, didn't go and then call that person out and say, hey, you know what, that wasn't OK. And I felt really uncomfortable. The idea of that like this, because so much I've been thinking about it, you know what I mean?
Yeah, totally. Yeah. Gray zone sex is happening at a staggering rate. The latest research shows that one in three women will have had unwanted sex before she graduates college. My name is Hannah. My name is Alexis. My name is Sam. This is my story.
When I was 19 years old, I had met a guy and I really started to like him. He asked me to come over to his place to watch a movie when I was 19 years old. I lost my virginity in that great area of consent with texting and he wanted to come over.
So he came over. We started kissing. We were friends and we've been flirting for months.
There was this like trust. I went over there, kind of expected to hook up a little bit. So I got to know him. Not really with the intention of having sex. I kept saying as a reminder, I'm not going to have sex with you. I said, I do not want to do that. And then our clothes were off and then he was touching me in places. And then all of a sudden he was putting on a condom.
There's only so many times you can say, hey, this isn't going to happen. It's all kind of a blur.
But like I remember, like feeling something and then looking up at him and asking him, like, is that your penis? And then he said, Yeah. And I just remember being in shock, more like my mind is racing. He had already sort of like making moves that I feel like I didn't want to make him feel bad by making him stop. So I ended up going along with it and did not enjoy it while it was happening at all.
I knew I didn't want it.
I kind of felt like once it's inside I did that, then I can really do. I remember freezing and not understanding why I was freezing.
If I don't keep going, is he going to get mad at me? I felt like it was my fault and I felt like I was being dramatic or overreacting or like being, you know, like a typical, like woman how we're perceived.
I realized he was having sex with me.
We weren't having sex together because I had made it so clear so many times that I didn't want to have sex.
I felt almost like betrayed. This could have been a relationship. This could have been a partnership. And that was never allowed to flourish because I felt violated. There was this very lingering feeling of violation and like I was worthless.
I don't want him to feel like a rapist. I mean, I just feel like it was like, I'm sorry. If that's because she had kept saying no. Yeah, so now if you're not. Aggressives, if you're not going to be the girl that's going to push you off, right, you know what I mean?
And now you feel like, oh, no, I'm in physical danger, like I should just comply just so that nothing pops off.
She said no. Yeah. And the no wasn't good enough for him. Right. Sometimes it's like this is turning me on because she's kind of saying no, but I know she means yes because she's at my hotel room and, you know, she wanted to have drinks with me is like, girl, what did you expect? Right. And how are you teaching your boys to sit back and how to.
He just turned seven. That was OK.
But he's way beyond his years, I bet, you know, and he knows everything. Got it. I'm not hiding nothing from my son. Right. My son knows what a period is. He'll come in the bathroom and just be like this to me. And I'm like, he's like, Mommy, do you have your period?
And I'm like, you know, not not right now, but I will and like, do need a tampon. Do you need a pad, you know, but like I say that to say, my son is seven and I don't feel like it's too soon. I don't because once he is 13 and the girls in his classroom are getting their period and the boys are like, that's disgusting. She's bleeding.
He's like, that's nothing here. It's not so much.
Right, exactly. I knew that since I was six years old, dude, like, get with the program. Right, right. Right.
So and I don't know if you've been through that with your boys, but he's very curious now and now he's like, mom, you got a degree but. Right.
And he'll just come behind me and just to get my butt, you know, and I'm like, Sebastian, I know you're playing and I know you love me and I'm your mom, but that's my private area. Right. And you don't touch mommy's private area, OK? And he's like, OK, I understand. And I tell him what other girls says when he goes to his dad's house. That's rapper. Yeah. It's a different dynamic over there.
Right, right, right, right. Listen, I co parent very well, but.
Right. As a woman at my house, we have different sensitivities as his mother, right. So I have conversations with him, like when you go to your dad's house, when you're at school, you don't touch these girls inappropriately. Don't touch him at all. Right. Right.
I have to give you respect, Amber, in how young you're starting to teach your son, because obviously we were lacking and what I received from from my mother and what I gave to Jada. And when I first started listening to you talk, I was cringing in my head and I was like, girl, but think about your own experience.
You know, we're waiting way too long, too long to teach our children. And this is so important. So I just want to I want to give you respect, don't you?
Thank you. And I get criticized for it, too.
But you know what? Those are your children.
And you know what? I commend you because I did the same with them and I criticized a lot and it pays off.
So I'll just tell you that you got for you and the kid pays off.
So there's a heated debate about the new rules of sexual behavior. Check out what some of the experts have to say.
I am one hundred percent for not only affirmative consent, but enthusiastic consent.
Yes means yes with an exclamation point. I am all for partners checking in with each other every step of the way.
They lecture on campuses and increasingly students are describing a perfectly ordinary encounter that they feel bad about. And I see a readiness to blame men, to accuse men asking consent every step of the way. I just can't imagine how that would work. There are so many ways of conveying consent in an intimate situation that don't involve signing an affidavit. It's dehumanizing. It's taking us back to a time where women were considered fragile, delicate little birds in need of protection, damsels in distress.
Teaching someone not to be a victim isn't blaming the victim. It's common sense. Oh, OK.
OK, rumah I see you over there statement. What's happening? I just think that is such a backwards way of thinking about. I think that's the reason why women are so afraid. We have to fight to be heard. We have to be viewed as equal people.
And to say that that we're just being delicate when I didn't have a horrible trauma happened to me as a kid. And I'm still struggling with how to stand up for myself.
We just have to have some freedom to express ourselves and to talk about it. Yeah, it's you got to shake the shame, shame, shame, shame, shame.
Former NFL player DeAndre Lévy has some strong opinions when it comes to consent.
Former pro football player DeAndre Levy has been called the most interesting man in the NFL because honestly, it's frightening.
Always known as an outspoken and socially conscious player. He's focusing on helping women on the issue of consent by calling out men and challenging them to understand that it is an issue they need to solve.
I want to say that you are a very confident man and be sitting at this, had to work my nerves a bit.
But we love that you're here. Why did you take consent? When is your cause?
I didn't hear consent till I was well into my adult use. I've been taught more that a woman will set me up trying to trap me. Be careful. A woman will try to get my money as men. We're taught a woman's body is asked to take in, especially if we already had sex with her. It's like she belongs to us. She's ours. We can do whatever now. It's like an indictment against our masculinity, our manhood if we're denied sex.
Yeah, once we had that as a starting point. I mean, it's no telling how much you can get for you. Yeah, but how many times are you maybe intimidating, coercing, getting into this space where you gilden a woman out of fulfilling a wife and not wanting it? And then it's just a way to try to prove a man who doesn't we supposed to do like we supposed to. So if she says no, it's our job to convince you.
She says, we don't want to. It's our job to, like, get you.
Yeah. It's a shot against us if we're not closing the deal.
It's the same thing as a way that women see being desired as a way to have validation like the other side.
Right. Is like that validation of like, oh, she wants to have sex with me. Like, OK, I'm man enough. I'm worthy. And simply just another notch in the belt.
Yeah. Yeah. How do we educate men. To think differently and is it possible? Yeah, that's a big question. That's my question, because I feel like this is so pervasive. It's like trying to change entire size, like how do you solve racism? Like, you know, I mean, I think the culture is so deeply ingrained.
It really is. I know what I can do. Like, I can talk to my nephews. They're the next generation. I can try to hold myself accountable and try to hold others accountable. How many times do we have, like a male figure in a life or older one who's already telling them about girls?
Like go do this to the girl. Just how you talk to the girl. Do this, do that high. Yeah.
So I think you can teach about consent when they're younger. That's not just about sexuality. Right. Right, right. It's about asking someone, is this OK?
Try to do that and force out my nephews when it's late and go give so-and-so a hug before you leave. I'm like, what do you want to give them a hug? Do you want to.
Yeah, I hate that. Yeah.
You got to put the little kids to give adults hugs and they don't want to. Yeah. And they don't want to. They don't nobody force them. No. It's like oh my God. Gives them a hug if they say no that's it.
I feel like that's the way we did five, six years old. You can see that there no is important. Exactly. They can understand for themselves. I think they can understand it when they hear from somebody else.
I've never seen a man talk about consent. No. Yeah. So I think it's so awesome that you do because so many women talk about it. And it's like from a man's point of view, sometimes it's almost like, oh, well, there they go, talking again about whatever it is they're talking about. You know what I mean? We're overdramatic. Like, I didn't do anything that I did it totally.
So it's like when it's coming from another man, I feel like they are like, oh, my bro is telling me this. Like, maybe I should think about that.
And then knowing what you know now, has it made you look at your past a little different?
Of course. So I look back at my sexual history, people I've had interactions with and, you know, like, did I make you uncomfortable? Like, I know I didn't rape anybody. Right? I know. I know that. Right. But we talk about the grey area. Did I make you uncomfortable? Did I put too much pressure back into your past?
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah.
Just made you do that. Hold myself accountable. The only way you can change somebody's perspective is to really be able to listen to to put yourself in their shoes and really, really internalize the experience.
I'm like, all right. Listen to win, but how is it affecting you as a man, how many situation, if I wanted to, where my expectation was higher than hers was my expectation of did I make you feel pressured in any way? Did you feel respected? You know what I mean? Like, I think so often our first response is to be defensive and be like, no, this didn't happen. That didn't happen. Just take a minute to listen and really ask yourself, did something go wrong?
So how can we stop nonconsensual sex? One woman says she has the answer.
OK, women are oftentimes unaware of what they like in the bedroom.
Therefore, they tend to go along with what is suggested. There's an incredible tool called the I want I will I won't list. This is a very long document that list anything and everything one might imagine doing sexually.
I have found that if you feel a little apprehensive getting together with girlfriends and going through this list with maybe a bottle of wine and you have the opportunity to kind of get more in tune with your own sexual desires.
So I want to encourage all women out there to push yourself beyond your comfort zone so you don't end up in the gray zone.
So what was. I've never seen I want I will I won't list I love that. Yeah, we're going to provide a checklist for our family. I like it. Let's bring the fish bowl out.
What a treat. Exactly. All right. You guys are our guests.
Oh, this to me, OK. Any advice on how to withdraw consent once things have gotten started?
It's a great question. I think that at any point in time, you can say, I'm uncomfortable, I really want to stop at any point in time, do not care about anybody else's feelings.
I think that's where it gets great because I've been there.
She's been there. Why were you like, oh, I don't want to stop? Because it's like I don't want to hurt his feelings and he's going to talk about me when I leave. And then his friends are going to think I'm some lame to do what's best for you in that moment. It is OK to be selfish.
There you go. I love that. Yes, absolutely. Esto. Steven from St. Paul, Minnesota, Anyone at the red table ever get unsolicited dick pics?
Yeah, I got one the other day. Oh, my dam is full of them. I got my DNA. I never checked my I have never gotten far enough.
Wow. I got one on Facebook from a woman. Oh, well, you've got one from Facebook from a woman.
Some some guy. Oh. So it was a she was. Let's look at this. I just delete.
I thought it was very strange because I really did.
Why don't men think that's attractive? What is up with the random pics I wish I had even in relationships or when I was dating guys and they would send me a big picture. But I, I'm like, that's not sexy.
Not sexy. Not like your stomach. Yeah, exactly right. Miles, I'm going to do a public announcement.
Okay, men, we want you to know we don't like TV pics.
Aren't that sexy. Yeah, I think there's nothing that just ads that's sexy.
Yeah. I also want to come out and say as women we need to stop penis shaming. Right. That's if we want equality. We need to stop shaming the size of men's penises because they are literally born that way and there's nothing, you know, exercise.
Go, go, go, go and have fun. But other than that, if we want respect, we have to give. Yes, it's true.
How do I know if she is just playing hard to get or really doesn't want it? Lots of mixed signals. You're expecting us to navigate help. Well, just ask. Yeah. Like, yeah, just ask. It might not be cute or sexy. Like you don't have to say, is this OK with you. Can I touch your boob. Right. You don't have to make it very robotic and weird. You can just do you like it when I do this as a shrink away.
Why does that seem to be such a thing? I feel like I hear that a lot, whereas like it throws off the rhythm, it throws out the flow is unnatural. Yeah. What does that say about like how we're supposed to engage in sex? Like I feel like everybody makes it seem like it's such an awkward thing to just simply ask or get some type of confirmation from our affirmation.
They're not stupid. You know, when a woman is uncomfortable stopping. Yeah. 100 percent like you can, she's pulling away with any type of body language. Look at her face. Look at how she's reacting. Is she and kissing and touching you back like I.
I feel like it's just too try to find loopholes like that's a loophole.
She didn't really say I really like this.
I said, OK. And by the way, also like this whole playing hard to get thing. As women, let's just stop that, right, let's it's immature and it's just perpetuating this and making it confusing, let's just all be a little bit more clear and then maybe we can figure out a way to not have this happen. Well, there it is. Well, thank you, guys.
I really appreciate this was an awesome, awesome, awesome conversation today. Thank you so much for doing this, this show about this, because it's so important. Yeah. Diondre, I'm really commend you. And I'm so happy we had you here, too, just for your input and your insight. It's deeply hopeful. It is. It is.
And Miss Amber, you keep doing what you do and you keep in your class as well. OK, yes. The red tape strikes again. To join the round table, talk family and become a part of the conversation, follow us at Facebook dot com slash red tabletop. Thanks for listening to this episode of Red Tablecloth podcast produced by Facebook. Watch Westbrooke Audio and I Heart Radio.
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