Hi, I'm Amy Nelson, and I'm Sam Ettus, we're the host of Eyharts newest podcast, what's her story with Sam and Amy? We both have our own businesses and between us we have seven children. And since the moment we met, we've been sharing our stories with each other. The thing is, we all know the stories of industry titans like Bezos and jobs, but the stories of women, they remain incomplete. We ask questions no one else even touches.

We are not afraid to get personal. So listen to what's her story with Sam and Amy on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Food is and always has been political. If that wasn't clear before, the events of 2020 have revealed this truly spectacular fashion. So this season, we're diving deeper and learning about the nomadic roots of the Fulani people from the makers of wetstone media, its point of origin in season three. And I'm inviting you to travel with me, your host, Stephen Satterfield, for another tour of the World of Food Worldwide. You can listen to point of origin on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast Pay Färm, Jada Pinkett Smith.

And this is the Red Tablecloth podcast, all your favorite episodes from the Facebook Watch show in audio produced by Westbrooke Audio and I Heart Radio. Please don't forget to write and review on Apple podcasts and fight for free.

We're back at the red table. I'm so glad you could join us for part two. We're talking about the docu series Surviving R. Kelly with a very, very brave survivor, Lisa Van Alan.

The Lifetime docu series, Surviving Our Kelly has created an international uproar over the R&D singer's alleged abuse and sexual misconduct with minors. Lisa Van Allen, one of Kelly's accusers, was only 17 when she started dating the 31 year old star. On Part one of our special Red Table Talk, Surviving R. Kelly, the aftermath, Lisa described how she fell under his belt. He's a master manipulator. He knew my whole background. He knew that I was in foster care.

He knew that I was adopted. Like I may have been tricked here.

After 10 years with R. Kelly, Lisa revealed her breaking point.

He specifically kept telling me to buy my daughter dresses.

And I'm like, am I? Why does he care? Just my instincts was like saying this. I'm not feeling it.

Then Allen story is not unique. Kelly has been accused of isolating young girls from their families by preying on their hopes and dreams and luring them with false promises. So I know, Lisa, you have your 16 year old daughter here and she hasn't heard the entire story of what happened to you until she watched the right. Yeah, I watched her like. Oh, you did? I don't want anyone else to talk to her about it, so I felt like me and her needed to watch it together.

Oh, my goodness, look at this beauty. How are you? You look like your mama, right? Thank you. Wow. It's so nice to have you here. So let me ask you, how was it to sit with your mom and hear her story? It was hard and it hurt me because nobody else. There were. No, no. Did you cry? Yes. Yes. OK. It's OK. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

But it's changed my perspective on a lot of stuff because. Shoot it out. I know. And what you need to do, because people are really judgmental nowadays. Oh, absolutely. You know, when you hear someone's story and it's like you don't know, you know, like anyone could be going through anything and it'll show you she's doing the mommy thing, that's all it'll make you realize. That's how they act. That's why they act the way they act.

And this is why they're like this. This is why they have anger issues and stuff. And I used to always question my mom, like, why she's overprotective. And, you know, I understand now that it's scary out there. Like, people are crazy. Has anyone ever come up to you at school, like, saying anything about this on social media? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Somebody near me earlier today, I was like, not to be rude, but does R.

Kelly send you guys money? Like, why would you say that? You send us money for what? So I just blocked the person that can be so hard. I know how it feels to to have people talking negatively about you on the Internet or your family and you're just seeing it and you're like, what? What do I do? And it makes you feel kind of powerless in a way. Yeah. They'll just make up anything and just say it's just so you can either respond or just you can get mad or so you feelings will be hurt.

Do you think that seeing that changed your perspective on men? Yes. What do you feel afraid to date? Are afraid to have experiences with males after? I'm just more cautious, vigilant because it's like I'm not even interested in date, you know, like I'm not in a rush. I because a lot of people nowadays, like at my school and stuff, they're like, oh, my boyfriend, boyfriend, me, please. And I'm like, no, I'm OK.

Right. When you watch something like this, in what ways are you more vigilant? Did you get, like, certain signs you would look out for, like how guys using the telephone for control, like you can't post this, they text you five hundred times a day. And if you don't call the best, definitely a form of control like you're going to you're going to call me back to you. Yeah, she just had that situation about that and cut back.

Oh, sure. Oh, really? It was telling me that he was overpowering like she'd want space. I just keep. You're ignoring me. Did it hurt like back to back on from would you like. And she said, oh no. I blocked his number, he beat me on Instagram to and I was like, I just need space right now. And then the next day takes him, takes something cool, cool, cool, cool, cool.

I saw it as a red flag from her experience and then when he started getting aggressive I was like, why are you ignoring me all the time? Like my surprise when Willow and I were watching it together, we had some real teachable moments. You know, just like you said, I definitely realized because my mom was super, she still is protected. And when I was younger, it was such a mystery to me. It was like, what is what is the big bad like?

Let me know. Like, I want to know what it is. I want to know what it is like. You really don't. There have been so many times I've had to have very real conversations with Willow in regards to I don't care if you look at this person as like your older brother and you trust them, you're not to be alone anywhere. And we've had some very hard and not understanding. I mean, like why we're right. It doesn't matter to me.

It does. Me having to tell her is not you I don't trust. Here's the thing about girls. When they get to those ages of seventeen, eighteen years old, you do you think you're grown right. And as a parent you only have but so much control because I tell you you are on my ass you will like you better be in this house better. I mean you will own me and I'm like I'm a find a way to lie to her.

I'm a find a way to manipulate her. Oh, I'm staying at my girlfriend's house while I'm on the streets doing whatever the hell I would be as real. I'd be like, damn, hold up. I got a dream. Now you're not going to get in the way of that. So, my God, this man is saying he might give me an opportunity. You're not thinking about anything else. Yeah. And I would have been able to manipulate and work my way around.

You believe that any one of us could have been Azriel? Yeah, exactly.

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Download the app and use Code Red. That's code red for one hundred dollars of free delivery credit for your first seven days. When you download the Postmus app. Anything you need, anytime you need it, post-paid it. A ravenous pandemic, a ruinous recession, protest, riots, racial strife, police brutality and yes, Donald Trump America in 2020 feels like Apocalypse Now again. I'm John Heilemann and in hell and high water.

I'll explore this moment in a series of raw and real conversations with the people who shape our culture. Hell and High Water is a podcast from the recount.

Listen to Hell and High Water on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. There's a brilliant psychologist who appeared on surviving R. Kelly, Dr. Candice Northcott, it takes about seven tries for a girl to successfully leave her abuser for good. That statistic tells us how difficult it is often to pull away from these relationships. Thank you for being here. Absolutely. I want to ask you to help us understand the invisible psychological chains that are created specifically on an impressionable mind mind, because a lot of the women left and came back and just trying to help us understand why that happens, because in my mind, I'm like, OK, once you're gone, you're done.

Be done with that. You know, we see women. But it began when they were children as children. And it's a slow, slow process. And in the human trafficking field, they're starting to use the term identity distortion. Oh, wow. I might call you a different name and say this is the name I'm going to use. And so now you're not really who you were that I'm going to ask you to do different things that you normally wouldn't do.

And so then you can just put on that like, oh, well, this is my new identity. And so when you start to then shift and get programmed into that new person, how do you go back from that? You've put in so much. You've done so much. How can I come back? How can I come back from this? Who will accept me after all everything I've done? That's very interesting because when I look at Dominic, that would be a prime example.

Wasn't that powerful? It was. So that was power. But the idea that her hair had been shaved headed that. Did you guys not realize when TMZ was interviewing the Savages daughter, nobody realized that was a girl with her. I kept saying, oh, she's by herself. She's out with friends. No, it was still a controlling situation because he sent another one of his girls with her. So if she did try to get away the other one to get on, you get what I mean, like nobody like to see each other, like.

Right. Everyone thought that that was a guy, though. That's what you give it. I mean, it's not rigidly challenged her identity to go with what you were saying. Everything. And oftentimes that's what happens. Right. And let me tattoo you with me, Brandy, or let me just make you different from the person you were, so you can't go back. We had, like, a really big argument one time, me and him.

We were talking about breaking up everything. And I only was an argument because I had got drunk that night and I wasn't supposed to because I didn't speak up much. But I got drunk that night. The the next day I was afraid. I didn't know what was going to happen. He calls me down. He plays a song called I Don't Mean It that he just wrote. So he would do things like that and write songs for you, get what I mean, like and you're thinking, oh, this is great.

You don't forgot. Why would he just threw water in your face and said, you're out of here and you know what I mean? Then he comes and does something like that and then you're kind of like again. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And that's the type of things I know he would do.

Women don't necessarily want the relationship to stop. They just want the abuse to stop. I want to be with this person that was vulnerable with me, that shared that love with me. I just want him to be nice like he was. And I think I want the abuse to stop. And so they stay because they're just hoping. And then they get those glimpses like you described.

Would you say that and a lot of these situations that if the abuse goes unchecked, it will progress? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, those even calling somebody out of their name, that's a test, right? Yeah. Let me see how she's going to react. Yeah. Right. Let me see. OK, that she didn't like that's let me pull back and just get her there then I can use it more often. That is so interesting.

And you don't know what love is when you're younger. You don't know how it's supposed to look if you've never had it, if you have abuse experience and then especially if you're a star. Right. And you're inviting somebody into your world, this is how it is. Right? Right. Me seventeen dating a thirty one year old. Like, how would I know? Right. But dating a man would be like at seventeen he's like, let me tell you.

So yeah. And that's what happened. And that's how I would be thinking that in my head. And he's you know, all I could say to myself is, well he's a grown man. He would know better than I would, you know what I mean?

Now, that's an interesting point that that you both just brought up. Just the idea that you were young. You don't know what love is supposed to look like. And a lot of us haven't seen very good examples of it in the first place. You know, but I think about I just think I'm listening to you and I'm just thinking about myself because I did have a perfectly beautiful example in front of me that I lived with every day. But somehow I got in my head that being beat was a sign of love and the amount of love that he had from me, like he wouldn't bother to beat me if he didn't love me.

Like, I didn't know how how I ever got that concept in my head. What do you think, Dr. Nerka? We get a quick therapy session for damage. We have to go right.

And I'm glad you brought that up because one person's experience is not everybody's right. I have a great relationship with my father. But how did this happen? I had a great role model with a male role model in my house. And yet and still and because we're not immune, we know there, but for the grace of God, go I and we have there's something called just world fallacy where the one side of it is good things happen to good people.

Right. But put that on its head. Right. If something bad happens to you. Well, what did she do? That's her fault. Right. And so and so we have to be careful. Right. I feel like that's what a lot of people like like the negative comments that I'm seeing about the docu series. It's always kind of that mindset of like, oh, if something bad happened, then she must have done something to make that come upon her.

Like no one in their head is like like I'm going to get like no one's thinking they're going to get abused, you know? Absolutely like that. I was walking through that door. Exactly. Lisa, let me ask you. Did you feel like someone was ever going to come and save you or do you feel like everyone just let you down? Were you waiting for that?

One of the major questions I had when I was a child, I know I used to always say, why didn't they want me? My parents. It makes you feel like you're not worth. Yeah, you know. And I talked to him about that. It's no secret that in Washington, D.C., corruption is everywhere, you could say it's gone viral and I should know my mom's the speaker of the House. My name is James Parker. My friends are all in the same boat.

Daughters of the D.C. elite. When are this close to power? There's nowhere to hide. And when my friends and I got a little too visible, our parents broke us up.

But now I need them back because I'm in deep. You see, I'm a bit of a hacker in here.

No one knows me as James Parker. They only know me as Storm Boy and Storm Ally. Well, she went poking around somewhere she shouldn't have. I'm James. I'm Peyton. I'm Celia. I'm Natalie. And we're the daughters of DC. Join me and my friends for Daughters of DC, a new twelve part scripted podcast, political thriller from the team that brought you Lethal It Einhorn's Epic Productions and I Heart Radio. Listen to Dogs for Free and I heart radio, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.

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Do you feel like at times he filled the void for you, made you feel really worthy and feeling like you weren't worthy and you were unwanted, that I have got this guy who wants me? It was misguided. But, you know, I thought, yeah, you know what I mean? That's what it was. Yeah, I did. Yeah. You know, because I didn't know. Yeah. To not have any male role models. Yeah.

You know, just how would you deal with the love of a male. It's supposed to be like, you know, so you know, I was really pushing for it. I wanted you know, so. Yeah. And I think that's something that is at one point that I did I did miss in my thinking of this how naive we can be as young women. And now you've got an adult who's going to groom groom your understanding of love.

Absolutely. I mean, you know, from your professional point of view, do you feel as though that people who are abused abuse?

There are a large majority of people that have experiences of sexual abuse that do not go on to abuse others. Right. Right. I'd be one. Right. But there are some that do the idea of power and control getting twisted up with sex for children. And so a way that that can happen is it's not uncommon for a child to be told that the child seduced the adult. It's not uncommon for the child to be told, well, you know, you liked it because the child had an orgasm, which is an involuntary physical responses.

Yes. So especially with boys. Right. And so then then it becomes well, if this is how sex is as an adult, I want to be the other guy. I want to be the other person. Right. Right. And so I'm not speaking for everyone's experience, but that certain one one part, certainly one part of me, because I have to be honest and not to justify anything that is happening, but the fact that he had experienced sexual abuse from a family member really shed light on possibly how something like this could manifest and happen.

And I do believe that as a community, these conversations are so important to have just to make it OK to just talk, because I feel like so many people are suffering in silence and suffering manifests that thing in the black community where people don't want to seek professional help.

Oh, yeah, because if you go to see a psychologist, then you're crazy. We all made a lot of really great points. And also it's really important to acknowledge we use the term ID. Right. What we do with girls is that when they start developing, we treat them as if they're adults. And when you add race on top of that, what we know is that we see adolescents and children as less innocent black adolescents and boys. It starts at 10:00, but for black girls, it starts at five than their white counterparts.

And so when you're thinking about people saying, well, you know, I thought, well, they're grown so they know what they're doing. They're in the studio. You know, she's standing there seeming like she likes it. We as a society are acting like these girls are willing. Right. And we have to own that. We have to recognize somehow we're complicit. Yeah. And it's that because of just because we're black women at this table doesn't mean that that doesn't seep into our psyches and the way we see.

So we have to we really have to keep talking about it and see how that happens with Alea. Exactly. You know, even I remember you hear whispers of stuff, but, you know, you go, oh, you know, she's making hit songs. She must be OK. Just explain to me what that is like. I'm trying to understand why is that? Have you figured that out? The adult like at five, just seeing them as more responsible, less innocent, more responsible for themselves than their white counterparts.

So overall, black women are seen as more responsible and less innocent. And you see that with judges not using their discretion when they're sentencing. You see that with police officer resource officers in schools disciplining black girls. And you just see it. You know, I think the answer isn't simple, but it is historic. I feel it's systematic as well, like systematic and historic, like like that mixture of sexism and racism, like combining and becoming this monster.

That's just like that's kind of dehumanizing, is it? And that's that's how you can go for years and see black girls getting abused and see black girls being victimized and not really do anything about it or say like, oh, that's terrible, right. It's because you've deemed them now as less them. I never thought about it like that. I want to thank you. I want to thank both of you for for coming. And I thank you all for listening.

And let me ask you, what is something that you want people to know about your mother? She's not who they think she's. She's a helper. She's a mom. She's a lot of stuff and people just aggravating what they say and they don't know anything. It's like, oh, she's a gold digger. Oh, right. What money do we have? It's very difficult to heal in the spotlight right in front of people. And that's why, you know, every last one of you that that had the just the courage it taught me so much.

It made me have to look at myself, Willow. And I had some real conversations. My mother and I had some real conversations. Everybody's having real conversations because of the courage that you guys have had, you know, so it's important because I do believe culturally in our community we got some things to handle and we really do. All right. There's so much more to talk about. So much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. We can do a lot of like.

We can do far more.

Hayati family joined the red tabletop group on Facebook, become part of the conversation to join the red table, talk family and become a part of the conversation, follow us at Facebook.

Dot com slash red tabletop. Thanks for listening to this episode of Red Tablecloth podcast produced by Facebook. Watch Westbrooke Audio and I Heart Radio.

It's no secret that in Washington, D.C., corruption is everywhere and I should know my mom's the speaker of the House. My friends are all in the same boat. Daughters of the D.C. elite. When are this close to power? There's nowhere to hide.

But in here no one knows me as James Parker. They only know me as storm alloy. You see, I'm a bit of a hacker. Join me and my friends. For daughters in D.C., a new 12 part scripted podcast, political thriller from the team that brought you lethal lit. Einhorn's Epic Productions and I Heart Radio. Listen to Dogs for Free and I heart radio, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Paper Ghosts is a true crime podcast that investigates the search for the person responsible for the abductions of four missing girls in neighboring New England towns for more than 50 years. Each case has remain unsolved. Every day is like being lost in limbo. I pray every day that we find Lisa so we can go on. It wasn't until this past year that things took an unexpected turn. Breakthrough answers to decades old questions and witnesses finally ready to talk.

I don't think that's the first time I can describe what he's wearing. It's only a mile away. Jesus, Mary and Josephine. I hope that's brave for many of you know what I think it is? Listen to paper ghosts on the IHA radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.