I'm Robert Evans, host of Behind the Bastards, and if you're like me, you're probably worried right now, in part because of the fascist insurrection on January 6th in Washington, D.C. But what if I were to tell you that what happened in D.C. was just the latest in more than a century of fascist attempts to take over democratic governments, many of them successful, learn about the history of these insurrections and the history of the anti fascist actions attempting to stop them.
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What was the worst betrayal by a woman friend? We as black women could be so cruel to each other. We don't even take care of our own. We don't talk about it a lot with the whole megillah stallion's situation.
Jemele Hill and Carrie Champion join the table. People were trying actively to pit us against each other. I had a rough couple of years. It was bad.
I didn't have any friends for a real conversation about how we as women treat each other. Somebody who was close to me was trying to take me out. And the pay mothers pass to their daughters, when you get led down that way, it's just it's really, really hard. So it hurts for me to feel it for.
Today, we're doing a show about. Mean girls, we can relate to so many different ways. Have either of you ever been a mean girl? I wouldn't say I'm a mean girl, Mama, tell you what I am.
And that's a petty bitch. I'm a petty bitch because here's the thing now. I might not say some things and I might not do some mean things.
But if you do something to me, baby, let me tell you, I'm a hold on to it until the moment comes where you and I'll be like, oh, well, did you what? And you need me.
You know, when I at a point in my life was just mean to everything because I was hurting and I was angry and I was going through a lot of stuff, people will say that.
I mean, they would definitely say that on me, that there's a difference in the meanness because I'm not for the nonsense. I'm not for the book.
Probably one of my worst character defects is being judgmental. I'm extremely judgmental. And I actually just realized that it's my own insecurities, I didn't even realize that that's where that judgment comes from. Right. You know, so what I don't like in somebody else is what I don't like in myself. Real talk. Definitely a work in progress.
Well, we all recently we met the stallion went through a very painful and personal trauma. A disturbing reaction unfolded. Women came out in full force, publicly mocking and criticizing and doubting Meg Nicollet back at the hurtful gossip, urging women to check themselves before being nasty to other women.
It got us all really thinking about how we as black women treat one another and the roots of this toxic, mean girl culture.
It was really jarring to me because it was almost like we don't even take care of our own.
Yeah, yeah. That was that's really painful, too, that we are as a culture are attacking one another.
Absolutely. And even we as black women understanding what we're up against culturally and in society. Right. And so it was really disheartening to us. But were you guys really surprised?
Because I wasn't I kind of what I kind of was considering that it's coming from black women. Right. We have some guests that are going to join us today.
I think we're missing a big part of the story. I think everyone knows this. The NBA is a business. So let me get this straight in there. Sports anchors carry champion and Jemele Hill started off as rivals. Two black women competing for the same high profile hosts.
But at ESPN, both Kerry got the job even though they were pitted against each other. The two forced an unlikely friendship, often defending one another when no one else would.
Now they've joined forces to co-host their own series.
Welcome back to the sports. Jemele, we're still here. We're obviously we're doing something.
OK, moving sisterhood can prevail. Yeah. Come and be with them. Yes, we're back there again and again.
OK, we're so happy to have you here. We were there any minute in agreement about this, about everything.
So you started your relationship as rivals for the same jobs. People were trying actively to pit us against each other. My agent is in my ear.
He's like, just stay away from Jamal. She's supposed to get this job, don't you? Right. You're right. Right. I'm just listening to all of this stuff that they're into the streets just talking with social media. And people are like, you should have that job. It should be her. And I just didn't want that to be our story.
So from the beginning, I was like she to be my friend, like.
The job was really hard, was very hard, and I felt very lonely. I felt afraid. I didn't have any friends. I felt like no one like me was because no one did.
But she wasn't projecting. But she truly reached out to me and was like, we're going to go to dinner. And I unwillingly went five minutes and she like, let me tell you what a treat you right. Let me tell you who you work with. Nothing. The girls don't like you. You need to demand better. They disrespected you. Right?
And I'm just like, oh, I so much. I just hit her with everything. Right. Because at that point I was sort of oji in the system. So, you know, I'm trying to break it all down.
Let me give you what it is.
And it's like I now understand why she totally would question my motives, because sometimes when you get in that kind of position and then there's somebody else, another woman is like, oh, do this, they might be plotting on the low.
My first thought is to be skeptical. Why are you sitting down immediately telling me, don't like this person? I'm like this person, I'm grown. I'm going to tell where I want to like.
So we have this dinner. I walk away feeling so confused because her spirit is so pure. Right. I like her. But then I'm takes you talking to someone.
She continuously reached out to me after that dinner. She went out of her way to be kind to me. I had had a rough couple of years. I'm not lying. It was bad. People tried to divide us.
I mean, please, consistently. She would tell me without gossiping. Yeah, they don't like you.
Why? Why do you think no one likes you? You all can relate to this. Like I like to be great at what I do. Right. And I'm a hard worker and I demand a lot for myself and from others. And if you present and look a certain way, you come in with a little skirt and high heels.
People like who she thinks she is and I'm aware of it. So I and I don't change who I am because that's who I am at my core. But I can count on my hands how many friends I've ever had that have never been jealous of me in any moment or tried to throw me under the bus and she was truly one of them.
Jamal, tell me why it was so important, like for you, because, you know, she's going to be my friend because sometimes that's what it takes.
You talk about the dedication. Sometimes it's like, oh, no, no, no, no, we don't. Only two black women here doing this thing. We not we're not about to do that.
I just had seen too many situations, especially there at ESPN, where people really started battling and hating each other. And it turned out it was really over. Nothing over nonsense. As black women, we can't afford to do that as it is. It's hard enough once we get into that room, once we get to that position, we bring in a whole bunch of battles with us. Right.
So what do I look like with this woman who's come to ESPN getting this position, being her enemy?
I think in a lot of environments that we get into, yes. As black female professionals, unfortunately, we're made to believe it can only be one. It's like, no, we only have room for one. I think it's fighting for that acceptance. It's feeling like you had to fight so hard. Yes. To get that specific kind of acceptance, to be in this specific position.
And then when someone else comes in, you're like, oh, no, you're not going to wipe away all the work that I did to get myself here. Did you want to?
I was talking to one of our young producers here. One of the things that she brought up is the idea of survival over sisterhood, survival before sisterhood. And this is one of those instances where you were like, no, no, we can survive and has sisterhood. I don't think people get that.
That's powerful. And that's why we find ourselves in competition with other women, other women.
Now, Jamal, you went through your own firestorm.
Yeah. And I had some thoughts about our president that I shared on Twitter and let everybody know. And it created quite a firestorm and professionally put me at risk. And, you know, the whole country, if I like the whole country, was to be the president called for me to be fired.
I think that's one of the more outrageous comments that anyone could make and certainly something that I think is a fireable offense by ESPN.
No one had her back. No one like I can count on my hands. How many people had her back within the system? Oh, listen, I know I would just send a tweet.
I would just say I got your back or what's happening isn't right. I would tweet very comfortably because the.
Safe to say 2020 was one of the most difficult years ever for so many, and these remain very challenging times. That's why I'm here to ask you, how can I help? My name is Dr. Gail Saltz, host of the new weekly podcast, How Can I Help with Dr. Gail Saltz, brought to you by the Seneca Women Podcast Network and I Heart Radio.
I'm a clinical associate professor of psychiatry at the New York Presbyterian Hospital, a psychoanalyst, bestselling author. And I'm here to help. Join me every Friday where you can ask your most pressing questions and get helpful guidance on topics ranging from coping with anxiety and mood relationships to family and parenting issues, to workplace dynamics, to dealing with covid fatigue and everything in between.
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Lack of support from black women was so crystal clear that this woman had made this company millions and give them street credibility, they had put her in a position to win and survive and thrive. And one hint of controversy. And they took that all away from her. And they and while she left on her own accord because she couldn't thrive there for her own mental sanity, the way that they treated her, the same people who loved her one day.
Oh, yeah. Next day. I had never seen anything like it in my life. That's how it goes. But it was that kind of support is why I was able to weather all the things that happened. And that's when you find out who really is down for you and for you, because that's when you really find out who's not. Yes.
So with the whole mega stallion's situation, I think really the disappointing part is just with black women, period, we can be so hard and cruel to one another. I'm not surprised that so much of that energy, unfortunately, came from black women is our inability to see the humanity in each other. We're begging the world to see us in a particular way, but we don't see it. But we don't see it in each other. We don't.
And if it is for me, so frustrating and painful that we're begging for the world to see us in a certain manner and we just we can't offer it for ourselves. And my belief is that if we can't give it to ourselves, we can we can't expect it. Right. I just feel like it's it's such a distance, you know, between being a black woman in her self-love. There's this big chasm between the two, you know what I mean?
And a lot of it is the way we've been socialized as some of it is the way we've been socialized in our own home, is that honestly, some of our mothers have been really responsible for the toxic relationships we have with other women as like how we hear our mothers talk about other black women. Don't trust her. She doesn't act like we'll hear them have a full scale conversation with another black woman. That's their friend.
As soon as they get off the phone, call somebody else. The thing they just come out from Friday. Like it would be we see it right, and then we take those lessons of mistrust that are bred in our own home, and then when we get out in the world and we're looking at another black woman, instead of celebrating her, find us something great about it. We'll be like she thinks she's cute with them shoes. What about this?
What about that?
I think it's how we're loved. Like, I know for me, not having a father around really is hard for me to be vulnerable. It's hard for me to love you and trust you and be around you and say who I am and love myself, because I think a lot of the times the women I see who have self love had a father around to remind them and love them in their first lessons of beauty. Those of us who had to grow up without a father.
But we grow up in violent neighborhoods and we have to put up these walls in this armor. And then you click up with a group of girls and then you end up, you know, you get betrayed.
We come from so many worlds of mistrust and trauma that it makes it very difficult is how we've all been taught.
Eventually, the press began to take on the traits of the oppressor. And that is that's where we're mirroring the patriarchy and the sexism in the misogynists and all of that that we have to deal with. We're just turning it on each other. And unfortunately, we've been conditioned this way for so long, we literally spend a lot of time learning. That is my biggest piece of advice to people out there, is that if you want to be different, if you want to be the change you want to see, as they say, you have to unlearn.
And you have to be willing to be self-aware enough to know where you're vulnerable, where your your most petty is.
You have to be realistic about the ugly. And that's the only way.
Right. You also got to be honest that a lot of us are doing performative sisterhood, which is. Oh yes.
Oh, you better preach preacher. No distributive system for the sisterhood, because we are all of us have encountered those women who, you know, at the women's conference at the low get together.
They like woman is love. I love the fact that most triflin backstabbed. So remember that one time when that one time let me stop by like they are all there to.
It looks good. They're only doing this because we used to say or it sounds, sounds good but like deep down they're actually they are not supporting otherwise at all.
We had our jobs. I remember when the athletes will be friendly with us. Right. And then the wives start talking to us and maybe like I agree. I agree. And I'm like, wait, wait, wait. Do they like us or do you think that's wrong? To what, man?
We can do all we can do. You can tell or they'll say that when they're there.
Yeah, but you see, that's a woman out socially somewhere else and she will treat you like, oh, wait, wait, time out here.
I just look, I might be getting a little feminine journalism work in here because you will recognize, like, no one is perfect, but you will recognize the sisterhood.
We don't do that. What would you say was the worst betrayal by a woman friend? I had a cousin, actually, who have, but we settled our differences.
Now she, like, developed super faster than me. And she had like the long flowing hair and my hair. You know, I got the afro. I mean, I was super skinny. I was like tomboy. And I would always tell her the dudes that I liked, like I was I would be like, oh, my God, he's so cute.
Every time she wait for that, she would date him every time.
And so after, like, three times I was like, you know what? You're the dumb one.
You keep on telling her she's going for those guys.
I tell you, I had a girlfriend who brought some dos to my house, who stole my I.D. and got my name caught up in a credit card scam. Oh, somebody who was close to me, like, trying to take me out.
Oh, that is. Yeah, that that goes to show you how like envy.
You know, I really feel like a lot of us get so riddled with envy, like envy or justify so much like it's one of the most destructive yet destructive.
There is no resolve and yeah, there's no resolving. The best pain is envy.
There's nothing, you know, and there's a lot of that that just happens amongst women. What about you too?
I'll have to say this within context, because I don't I don't want the headline to be she said her mother betrayed her.
Oh, you're right. And so but that is probably my deepest betrayal. You know, my mother is a recovering addict. And we went through a lot when I was growing up. And, you know, there were some incidents that we had where I felt like I was surely.
I know, you know, she's got a bad drug habit, but it won't go there. It went there, yeah, it just left me with this incredible sense of disappointment and to be that vulnerable and then for it to happen with a parent, I think it trains you the rest of your life. And so, unfortunately, one of the things that I still struggle with is that it is very hard for me to be vulnerable. I had to have repaired our relationship.
She's great. But I think a lot of the betrayal I experienced with her growing up, unfortunately, you know, my therapist said this to me one day, and it really set home with me is that childhood lasts forever and it lasts forever.
And so I didn't realize that till I got good and grown and much more self-aware and much more comfortable going into those deep parts that I realized that because of that sense of betrayal, it impacted how I was able to even have certain friendships.
Not a lot of people get here, right, because I learned that blockade early. So once I experienced that sense of betrayal, it unfortunately stayed with me and I'm trying to unlearn that. So I don't always keep people there.
When you get led down that way, it's just really, really hard.
Well, yeah, that's my story, too, right. I mean, you know, we've had a lot of healing, but it does.
Your childhood stays with you and you just be like, God damn it, get away. I thought we to go, right? Yes. So what do you feeling over there? I can relate. Yeah. So it hurts for me to feel it for. Yeah. Yeah. One of the things her and I bond with the most is our childhood and our parents, and we tell the same story.
Gary and we'll be like, remember when you were seven years old, your mom told you to go make a journey like that on CNN? Right.
Your dream might be blurred or saying things that hurt you because they don't see you. Yeah. Hurts. Yeah. I think this brings up a lot in the sense of like what we deal with as a community, we can sit in this pain and feel it, and you can imagine that people who don't have a way of working it out. Right. You can see how they can strike out at other people for their anger, their disappointment, their insecurities just flare up.
So if you come in and you got them pretty legs, you know.
Yes, she thinks she's cute and all that, you know, you could just see as those strong feelings come up, you know, and need a place to release as soon as you see something that you can just go at, you know what I mean?
And you just do it. And I don't think my mother intentionally is trying to hurt me.
I think all of her pain. Yes. Is passed on to me because she doesn't know how to process it because of what she dealt with. And so while I'm sure she is so very proud of me, there is such a level of resentment towards me that she expresses, which hurts me. Yeah.
And it probably comes out for you in your relationships with other women. Oh, for sure.
It's really deep because a lot of people don't have great relationships with their mothers. That's probably where it first starts.
My name is Rita Kay. I am Ellen Bernstein Brodsky. This is your grandmother. What's the matter with you?
Well, and it is a podcast about the relationship between grandmothers and grandchildren, as my mother would have said, TACA, who wouldn't have wanted a Jewish grandmother?
Sometimes she accidentally live streams. We're like, who's going to tell her? I'm just hearing about this now.
Coming January 20th, eight. Listen to your grandmother on the I Heart radio app, Apple Pie.
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It's like if we don't really know how to relate to our mothers, then how do we learn to relate to ourselves and then to others.
Exactly. And if I don't have this connection with my mother, I haven't been able to be seen through my mother's eyes in a certain manner.
Right. You know which that is your first feminine mirror. Yes. You know what I mean? And so then and trying to learn how to connect to other women. It's hard. And I don't know why those relationships are so difficult.
Some of it is like, you know, black women. We buy into that strong black woman facade to a degree that's a detriment to us to where we think we can weather and withstand anything.
And she's from a generation of women, like a lot of black women who that's what they did. They just sucked it up and kept moving. And it's right. And it's really painful and hard.
And we had to be the people who were unfortunately absorbing their trauma. And because we had to absorb it, then we just continue to pass it down.
And once I realized, like all the things I mean, my mother had me when she was eighteen years old. Yeah, right. So, you know, I was seventeen, was seventeen, so, you know, and so he's raising babies, right. So I had to be there. She went through all these stages of womanhood and you had to raise me right.
So hard mode was I'm not here to be your friend. Like, we're not here to have this certain kind of relationship. I'm here to protect you, to save you from yourself and to make sure you don't do any of that.
And so because, you know, there wasn't really an opening for me to look at my mother as and this is the person I tell everything. And this is just to have, I think, the kind of the kind of relationship that you guys have now. So beautiful, which is a tremendous is that you have that open communication, no open communication. Right. You got to be this this is what it had to be. Right.
I tried to do therapy with my mom. It was crazy because she felt too vulnerable. And as for her black woman thing, vulnerability is weak. And she was so weak and so seen and she hated it. Yes, she did. She didn't want to see it. She was like, I don't remember that happening, you know, how we bring up stuff. But what about when you know that didn't happen? You're like, but yeah, if we're not saying that right now, it's cool.
Like, I'm going through things that really hurt me when I was a kid and I want to talk about it. And for her, it's an indictment on how she raised me.
She was like, you were live, right? You you're doing good, right? I'm like, no, I. I just want to talk about what happened. Yeah. And that's is you know what?
Jada was just the opposite because I wanted her to come into therapy with me and she refused.
So I refused only because I felt like, oh no, you're not about to take me into that abyss of pain and drop me off. And I was like, oh, no, no, we don't need to do that. I want to figure out my way of how to deal with this.
But it is it is hard when you talk about, you know, as an indictment. You know, sometimes when I listen to Willo, I have to just be quiet.
Because it doesn't matter what my intention was, it's important for me to just listen, have your reality. As hurtful as it is, it's not about trying to make excuses. It's really or even explaining to her at that moment.
It's just about just listening. Like you you got it. You got to work. I think the friction that my mother and I have now is because she wants me to judge her by her intentions and I'm judging her by her actions. Yeah.
And I may realize that the action was because she had a good intention, but that's not always the way it comes out.
And I'm like, she was like, oh, I was just trying to protect you. That's our line to excuse everything. And I'm like, that doesn't excuse this. I get that you thought this is what was happening. But let me tell you what I was received because she feels like you're saying she did something wrong. I just feel like if I'm saying anything, just express my thought. She goes on defense. She thinks no one wants to feel wronged.
Yeah. And it's just me saying that her let's work through that moment. One of the things that I realized in you talking about when you said nobody wants to be wrong, I think specifically for black women, they're always wrong, you know, or that they're always wrong.
That's a word. Let me have some empathy. I have to keep that in mind. Yeah, because you're right. It's just hard, you know, and it's like for us as black women and even having this conversation is given me more understanding, even deeper understanding of why we as black women could be so cruel to each other. It is not you know, it's like we get judged on everything we get. Just don't have a look. We get judged on our hair.
We get judged on we can't even love who we want to love. We got a white man that loves us. That's a problem, right? You know, I love her like, you know, girl. I just, you know, but it's like we can't even love who we want to love. I can't even have a fake crush on Chris Evans on the Internet.
Chris, if you have a girlfriend, ignore all this.
But if you don't like me, I can't even have a fake crush on a white boy without being a sellout. And I work in and shame. But on Twitter, come at me and tell me I'm a sellout to the culture. I actually thought it was all over. You know what? Hey, everyone, relax. That's why you wear a wig even. Right? Like what? You know. But you're right. We're always, always, always wrong.
And I think that's where we as black women, we got to give each other more room. Yeah, more grace. We can give each other more grace.
It's like if we don't do it, if it don't start with us. Yeah. It's a done that. Yeah. There's no there's no margin for error for us.
Like we literally can't make mistakes.
I have a thing about that in my own mind, like having to do the right thing, like having to know what the right code of conduct is and like having anxiety if I don't know what the right choice is. Yeah, it probably comes from that feeling of like, oh, I was never right. So someone needs to explain to me how I grew up doing so much wrong in my young adult days and as a mother. And then now I've gotten to this place where I think everything that I say is right.
How did that happen? Yeah, that I think that I'm right all of the time, that's where a lot of the judgment comes from. The judgment comes from insecurity. Yes, but it also comes with this false thinking that I have in my head that my way is right and how I was raised was the right way.
How I dress is the right way. How you dress is the wrong way because you need to be doing what I'm telling you. Right. Where did all of that come from? No, that's right. That's that's that's that's a problem.
And I can't I'm sorry.
I was I mean, I need to tell you that. OK, so I saw you. We were so excited what our show on GMA was like. So you can wear that was like we were talking to Robin Roberts, one of our idols in sports, like. But that's it. And then you could you hear that way, too, right? And I was like, oh, wow. My mother was all about dropping bombs. And I was just like, yes, I'm sorry.
Do you remember the house I grew up here and know we forget think culturally.
It comes from this concept that we have to be hard on each other because the world is harder.
That's what you would tell me. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. I know you better be hard as nails because the world is of us.
I had to learn even in raising my kids, I had to get up off that because I was still in that Baltimore street mentality.
They all say, oh no, y'all can't do this and do that because it's too dangerous. And I was like, hold up they in Calabasas and at the same time more, you know, the field is.
I also want to bring up there is a difference between how black moms will treat their daughters and their sons. Oh. Oh, my goodness.
All right, let's get OK. I just got to stay here because it's real. It's true. Let's get it.
So let me see if I mean, I you know, when I was younger, something as simple as just like getting up at the right time, it would be like you might like you better come up to me and be like, oh no, no.
School school's about to be. You got to get dressed. We need to get there. And it would be like I'd be in my room.
OK, but then Jane is actually like Nancy and Jane would say to different teachers and he'd be like, oh, maybe one moment and then I'd be ready at the door, like, OK, here we go.
And he's getting his shoes and he's getting his own shit.
But she might have a point because I would be like, no, you got to be on it.
You. Nah, right. So where is that right coming from, it's coming from because I got to be on it. We got to be all we have to know about this world. We have to work harder. And then I'd be like and his father will deal with that.
But, you know, mine, you know. And so I will say I do be getting up to work on time. All right. Yeah.
Because for me, I knew that she's going to have it twice as hard.
I needed you to be strong because I know what this world is like for us as black women.
But it works both ways. It works because whatever is your greatest strength is also your greatest weakness. And so what happens is, as mothers do, they have to protect us from all things that we're not even thinking about. But when you drill that down, is that we then we're not only internalize it, but we're going to take that and do that to each other.
I think if they have to harden us. Yeah. The world, and then we're never able to be vulnerable with each other.
Right? Yes, right. We're right back. We're like straight on back.
I just have a light bulb light bulb moment because it's the same damn thing.
So my fear for having a black daughter and what I felt like she needed to be in this world put me in a position to be a little harder on her. And that's probably how we are with each other.
It's real. It's a real deal. It's a real deal. Most of us are raised with a level of harshness that sets the expectation. And that's why we're so hard on each other, because in our own home, we. That's all we know. Yeah. Like you wearing that don't wear that because this kind of things happen to people who wear that, like all those things that we wind up repeating.
And people would tell me, it would be like they'd be like, oh my gosh. Like, why are you being so mean? And I'm like, You think this is me?
I think that women have to this is so hard to do because we're so trained and socialized so differently. But we have to throw that all out the window and forget every single thing that we have been taught and be willing to be uncomfortable with one another. Yes, because that's the only time that you really see any significant change. Everything in my spirit told me that she was great, but I was so uncomfortable being vulnerable and open and allowing her to be my friend when I had to be willing to get out of that.
And I still struggle with it to this day because it is a risk. It's insidious. You can't deny that. Yeah, it's a risk. And you do have to allow yourself an opportunity to get to know the women around you as women.
We have to have more responsibility in regards of how we take care of one another. But at the same time, what we're asking men to do, we need to do the same thing for us as far as respecting one another.
Yes. You know, and caring for one another in a certain manner.
What she taught me was to hold the door open. Yeah. And I didn't know how to do that. So here I am as a grown ass adult just now, learning how to get out the door open. Wow.
This was a great table.
That's what I love about like this was great because we started in one direction and ended up going into it with their kids. It really got deep. It was also that dog is living a life that's a very well behaved dog. My dog would have been out here and he's like, what are you talking about? Me not even two months. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. But he's a puppy.
Jamal's a cat person, mind you. Like cats. I love that. I have three cats. Just three. Do you have a cat lady? Cats are OK, but I'm a dog. Me to join the red table talk family and become a part of the conversation. Follow us at Facebook. Dot com slash red tabletop. Thanks for listening to this episode of Red Tape or Talk podcast produced by Facebook Watch Westbrooke Audio and I Heart Radio.
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