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I'm Jon Meacham, author and historian, I'm proud to present a brand new limited podcast, documentary series called It Was Set, where I guide you through ten of the most historic, impactful and timeless speeches in American history.


That's the word go forth from this time and place to friend and foe alike.


We do not want our freedom gradually, but we want to be free now. The future will always be ours. The America John McCain is generous and welcoming and bold. My I have seen the glory of the. Directed and produced by Peabody nominated Sea 13 original studios in association with history, it was said, is now available for free on Apple podcasts, Spotify, radio, dotcom, and wherever you listen to podcasts. 13 originals. I took Mary and the kids down to Louisiana and we stayed on my sister Frida's houseboat on a lake.


We got there with only a few dollars and all the time we were there, all we had was one hundred and forty five dollars that came from our welfare check. That was all that we needed, because each day I was out in the lake running trout lines at one hundred hooks on them. So I was catching a fish for us to eat and a cell for all the things that we needed, like milk and whatever for the kids. We spent the next five months living on that houseboat, and it was the best time of our lives.


I went through a lot of changes living on that houseboat because I wasn't around the club and going to the meetings each week and and only being involved with members and their way of thinking, which to me was something like brainwashing. We lived in our own little world and had been so intent on keeping up with everyone that everything we did was so normal to us. But after a while living on that houseboat, I began to notice how all the things that we thought were so important and how we lived so far out of touch with what was real.


It started to really work on me. I've been spending a lot of time on that lake each day and had gotten in real good shape, rowing and such. I hadn't taken any drugs or did any drinking and was eating good each day. I had even started to talk to Mary about quitting the club and moving down there. We've even found a place to buy and set up a daycare center she could run and I can run lines and selfish. It would just sit on the front porch of that house boat every night in his rocking chairs and just talk about everything that came to mind.


I began to think about never going back. I have great memories from being on the houseboat that was a really happy family time to what it was, because we were in a very small it was almost like a living room on a boat. But we all slept in that living room together, I remember waking up and we were running around playing tag in the middle of the night, but pretending we were asleep.


So I'd get up and I'd go poke my dad and run back and jump in my bed and he'd come up and he'd get up and poke somebody else. But I remember being on that houseboat and it was on Toledo Bend just inside the border of Texas. My aunt and uncle came to visit us quite a few times. I remember all of that and going out on a boat and going fishing with my father. It was good bonding time. But my father, I also remember, had to go and make phone calls for about an hour or two every day.


So we kind of knew right around lunchtime that he'd be gone.


Tommy would call me every week on the pay phone near the boat, and then George sent me a letter saying that they had found Tommy's old lady and that he was going to come down and tell me about it. I didn't like the idea of him coming down and got to thinking that he might just be worried about me. So I got this pistol and put it in my tackle box in the small fishing boat that I used to run lines with just in case he had something in his head about dumping me when he came down, we were out in the boat, back in the swamps.


George tried to throw his rod and my back was to him. And when he threw the bait and the hook hit me in the back. As soon as that hook caught me in the back, I thought it was a knife and I spun around with a 38 cock and I had it pointed straight at his head. He damn near jumped out of the boat when he's seen that gun pointed at him. And I damn near pulled the trigger before I snapped that it was just a hook in my back.


It shook me so bad that I couldn't talk. I just sat there pointing that gun at him as he was ducking and moving from one side to the other at his end of the boat saying, hey, Bush, cool it. I just came down here to visit you, bro. But the rest of the time, he was there and never took my eyes off them or let him get behind me. Which he could feel, and I think that was the reason that he wanted to leave right away.


This is the first time I had really been away from that way of life when I was in Cleveland, we stayed loaded most of the time, only ran with each other and talk to each other. Our whole world was each other. But now I was different and I knew it. I remember thinking to myself, fuck, and I miss these guys, I'd be glad if I never see him again. We're singing all day and you can't take me high tide.


Low tide, you know. That time, the morning time, and we're going strong headed up down the river, a lot of feel the river lady, I feel the change on the rise. I'm Jackie Taylor, and this is relative unknown. In the mid 70s, Cleveland was known as Bomb City USA, but when the violence turned from gangsters killing gangsters to women and children being killed, like at the sickly house, the city began to focus more law enforcement efforts on organized crime, which, in their view included the Hells Angels.


Here's retired Cleveland Police Intelligence Unit Sergeant Bob Samak, whose focus was on organized crime in the city. There's a great misconception of organized crime by the general public, La Cosa Nostra, your Italian mafia, is the epitome of organized crime. But in Cleveland, we had the Jewish mafia, we had the Italian mafia, we had a bunch of Irish gangsters who thought they were mafia, but they weren't organized enough to be organized crime. We had a black mafia that was very organized primarily in the area of gambling, who worked hand in hand with the Italian mafia.


The Hells Angels were part of that same group. They were organized. They had a structure, they had leadership, they had rules. They were part of organized crime. And as an intelligence unit, it was our responsibility to investigate all of them. And they were always on our radar. I recall one incident where they had a presidents meeting and we decided to set up a surveillance at the clubhouse. And across the street from the clubhouse was a school and the parking lot for the school was in the back of the building, which face the clubhouse.


So a couple of my guys were in this this brown van and they're taking pictures of the people coming and going. And all of a sudden, about eight or 10 angels come walking out of the clubhouse and they walk across the street and they walk up to the van and they walk around the van. And then they started shaking the van. Then they went back in the clubhouse.


I think they just wanted to let us know that they knew we were there. It was never any secret that both sides were well aware of each other. Here's former Cleveland angel Matt Santos car. I started a hydraulic business. I come out of the house. I lived in this back house. I come out to the street and I noticed this car. And it was the same car that had come by the previous evening by the clubhouse. And somebody had pointed out to me say, I think that's the ATF guys over there.


I'm heading to the shop trying to put my business together. It's like seven o'clock in the morning. I says, wow, you know, you're under surveillance, you know, so what are you going to do? So I now I get my truck and I go down a street and I, I make a right hand turn and it was garbage day. And I see this Carpati, somebody had just thrown out some carpeting. So I pull over, I get out and I'm looking through this carpeting.


It was pretty good because we didn't eat. We had a very small office, you know, I said, wow, this rug probably Pfitzner. So I'm pulling this rug out of the garbage.


And here comes the ATF guys again, you know, and they slowed down.


And then I'm throwing this carpeting flatbed truck. And tell you the truth, I never seen that car come back again because they weren't doing no more surveillance on me. They probably figured the only thing this guy's going to do is take us to a cleaner garbage can.


Because of some high profile bombings and shootings associated with the club, the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, or ATF, had begun to lead the effort to dismantle them. And one of the supervisors that the Cleveland ATF bureau was a man named Steve Wells. Here's Bob Samak again. Steve Wells is a nice guy, easy to get along with as an ATF agent, he was good at doing undercover, he was good at doing investigations. He was a good interrogator.


We worked multiple investigations together. And I have to say the majority of people at that Cleveland ATF office said they had a real good crew. They really did.


One of Steve Wells top ATF agents was a man named Bernard. But Korvettes Butkovitz had made national headlines when on special assignment in 1979, he became a central character in a shooting which left five people dead in Greensboro, North Carolina.


There is a verdict tonight in a civil suit in the case of a five communist marchers who were killed almost six years ago in Greensboro, North Carolina. A jury found five Klansmen and Nazis, two police officers and a police informant liable for one of the deaths in this trial.


Law enforcement and city officials were named as part of a conspiracy. The case centered around Bernard. But could an undercover federal agent who had infiltrated the American Nazi Party? Lawyers for the Greensboro Civil Rights Fund claim Berkovich encouraged Nazis and Klansmen to bring guns to the communist march.


But Kovik was cleared in that lawsuit. But the story of his involvement in five shooting deaths by Nazis and Klansmen followed him back to Cleveland, and so did a reputation of playing fast and loose. Bernie was kind of a unique character. He was very detail oriented person and could be like a pit bull when he latched on. He wasn't going to let go forever and he just took an interest to the Hells Angels. I think he was probably the primary reason that the Cleveland office of ATF had an interest in the Angels.


It was something that was personal with him.


They were going to do a search warrant and Bernie went out and had baseball hats made that said Hells Angels task force with the Hells Angels emblem on the front, and they just went absolutely ballistic. So then he went out and hid some T-shirts, made up the of Hells Angels task force. And they were going to assume they were going to take them to court because they thought that was an infringement on their copyright.


It pissed off a whole bunch that Bernie would be so brazen as to do something like that, but he had no fear of them. Luckovich had even gone to the clubhouse at one point to hand out his business card. I remember telling him he was an asshole, but he said no, he said, I got to go talk to these guys.


He just went in there just to introduce himself, let them know who he was. Like I said, he had no fear. Bernie, Butkovitz had detailed ATF reports on several members of the Cleveland Angels. You may remember from episode two, he'd begun a report on my father as well. This is a request for a unique identifier regarding the investigation of Clarence Addie Crouch of Cleveland, Ohio, then Berkovich to question my mother. Mary Crouch was very distraught and didn't want to comment on anything related to her husband, and that's when she packed us up and took us to Florida.


Shortly after my father had gone back to Toledo Bend to lay low on my aunt's houseboat, and that's when he picked up the phone and made the call, that changed all of our lives. But yeah, this is Berkovich, yeah. OK, let me lay it out just the way it comes. OK? This is a verbatim reading of the transcription of a phone call between Butch Crouch and ATF agent Bernie Berkovich on November 3rd, 1981. My father is speaking from my grandmother's house in Shreveport.


This call, this is the exact moment that our lives were changed forever.


You have to understand that for us to deal with you in terms of the witness protection program has to be major offenses like homicides, narcotics, bombings, et cetera, that you have to have knowledge of organized crime related. You have to be willing to testify, OK, and before you get into the program and before protection can be granted to you before pardon me, before protection can be granted to me. OK, initially you mean I got to sit out here by myself.


No, no. Listen to me, Butch. Yeah. We take care of the protection. We have this bureau. Take care of me first, OK? Yeah. I don't want to wait down in no jail. No, that's not the point. And then before you get into the program itself, we take care of you, OK? Yeah. When we start working with you. OK, but before you can get into the Justice Department witness protection program, you have to be able to testify.


We can't offer you any offer of immunity until we can verify. And it's been approved of all of these violations that were committed that you can lay on us to. OK, you may have to plead out to be proved well approved by the justice. And that ain't my job to do that. No, no. Approved. I can just. Huh. Approved. Approved by the Justice Department. OK, you may have to plead out to one felony, probably an ATF type of case.


OK, I have to plead out to a felony. You'll probably have to. I'll explain in a minute. You have to you have to tell us everything right from the get go. You have to tell us if you were involved in any homicides and give us a statement about the whole damn thing. Remember who you mentioned about Jimmy the Weasel? Yeah, he was involved in several murders. He got five years and he made a hell of a lot of money on his book after he got out.


You mean I got a cop to a felony and due time?


Yeah, that's the way it's laid out here from strike force. People that don't sound right. You ain't got me by the nuts. Even after I started talking to you, Buck, I could just blaze out on my own and get out of it. I'm pretty slick myself.


Yeah, well, you know, street wise you are street wise guy. I can grab a fuckin lawyer. I can go I can go someplace else. OK, you know, I can do it with I ain't I ain't even checked around or nothing. I just said, well fuck it man. I'll just go ahead and turn all the way around and just get it over with. But what. But you talking about me doing five years. Yeah.


In a federal penitentiary. Well, I'm just laying it out to you the way that the way they had it done with the other guys. And in order for us to be able to get together, you know, naturally, it's going to have to be a damn secure place. And in most cases, what we normally do is either pick you up and put you on a plane or we go someplace where we could talk. Yeah, well, that's what I figured.


I'd just go to a motel and wait. Yeah, but the thing is, Butch, you're going to have to give us some idea of what you can tell us about, like, you know, the victims of homicides or bombings or whatever. Can you say anything like that on me now? I ain't laying nothing on the phone. I don't know what the hell what what you got me all shook, man. I don't know what the fuck what you know what are you just going to take me, use me up, drop me off on a fucking limb somewhere.


This is all a new game to me. This is a whole new ball game. I just fucking hit a split in road and I'm fucking taking it and going to do it. I got my own fucking reasons. I'm going all the way. OK, and never mind that Cliff, because I can answer it. Oh, that's another line coming in. And well, you know, again, I got to have protection for my old lady in Florida and that protection from my mother here, you know.


Yeah, but the point I want to lay on you, I talk to supervision here and they said before we can set up a meeting, we've got to have something to go on, some kind of leads. Tell us something about homicides, about who the victims were that, you know, you're familiar with any any kind of bombings that went on, you know, what's going on. Without that, we really can't get the ball rolling. If you can give us something to go on, we could probably get something going within 12 to 24 hours.


We could 12 to 24 hours. I thought you added down a lot more tighter than this. What do you mean by tomorrow morning? Same time? And give us something that we can check out and find out that. Yeah, in fact, you do know about. I know about a lot. I know you know about a lot of stand in there and watching it happen. I never you know, there's a lot of things I didn't stand there and watch.


You know, I wasn't no eyewitness to a lot of things, but still, you know, a lot about what went on, about who was involved in what homicides, narcotics transactions. Right. Oh, yeah. I just I just want to straight deal. I ain't never had no bad dealings with you, but I never had none either you understaff. Yeah. Yeah. But I got to look out for myself too and I got to you know, and this is going to entail this.


I'm going to pick up a lot of tail on this where my mother's house is my old lady in Florida, you know. Yeah, well, we both know that. And that's why I told you, listen, before I can sit there and tell you what I can give you. Let me find out what I can do. What you should know, I am next. The conversation takes a turn to my father speaking about knowing that Butkovitz was asking around about him to other Hells Angels.


And this seems like it added some motivation for my father to make this call. He was telling them about dope deals and this and that and some kind of witness to a murder or something. Then you went out there to Geneva and he was asking around about me out there and he was talking dope deals out there. You had me in a hell of a cross then by that, they're all looking at the side of their eye at me. You were showing pictures around or something other than from Curly.


Nothing about you. No pictures of you know, you was asking about me before I talked to Mary and she said, yeah, I'll see if I can get a hold of him. In fact, that was the night before she took off to Florida. Well, that was common knowledge. Everybody jumped in on my soap opera. Well, I. I don't know. I don't know what to tell you, but you know what I can do for you.


But in order to get the ball rolling, I have to have some drift of what you can tell me. I told you I can't stand there and say, yeah, I seen this and seen that. I can help you build a whole gang of cases on just fucking hearsay. And there's about. OK, give me some homicide victims that you were involved in, not you, but I was involved in. I'm not saying, hey, tell me who did what.


Just tell me what you know. In other words, you know about so-and-so getting their head popped, you know, about a certain bombing. You see what I'm getting at? There was this there was a guy killed that was walking up his driveway, up what driveway, he was walking up his driveway somewhere and got shot at seeing a clipping on it. Yeah, the clipping was passed around a church. OK, that was Jack rolling his bones, OK.


He hit him with a 45 in the driveway with a silencer. That was Jack. All right. OK, is that good enough? OK, that's that's the kind of stuff I'm talking about. Which now, now, now all I've seen is a clipping on it. OK, I know. And there was no sound. They don't talk with sound in the clubhouse no more, you understand. Yeah. There's blackboards and shit right now. The clipping was laid down.


The finger was pointed. OK, how can I get a hold of you tomorrow. Tomorrow morning. Tomorrow morning. Yeah, well, I'm probably just going to go get a motel and wait. You want to try calling here? I'm going to do this right. The bigger I am, the more longer you are going to try to keep me alive till you get through with me anyway. But we're going to do it right all the way down the line, OK?


It's not like we're going to keep you alive and then dumped, OK? It's not a matter of getting through with you. Like I said, we're going to take you under our wing and we're going to take care of you, OK? And then when you become available to get into the program, then that's it. It's not a matter of now we're all done with you. We're going to give you back to the wolves. What about my old lady and kids?


Chances are, if you want your lady and kids, they're going to go with you. The very next day, which Crouch was put on a plane from Shreveport back to Ohio, Bernie Berkovich and his ATF supervisor, Steve Wells, then took him out to a state park where he was protected under armed guard and interviewed.


But Kovik came over to our office one day. And he asked if we had a couple minutes, this is retired CPD Intelligence Unit Sergeant Bob Somyurek again.


So he came in and shut the door to the office and he said, would you believe it if I told you that we rolled an angel?


And I said, no, I said I don't think I would believe it. And then he proceeded to tell us what had happened. It was quite a surprise. The Mafia calls it omerta and the angels just call it dead. Anybody snitched, they were going to get killed, it was just that simple. They never roll, which was just. A gift. He chose to just give us a present. Every informant that I have ever done business with is an informant that we cultivated.


I never had an informant come down this way, were they called you and said, hey, I want to be a snitch? It just it's it's it doesn't happen that way because it was such a unique set of circumstances. I'm not sure everybody believes that he was truly going to become a real source of information. Some people thought it was a game. You know, we just didn't know.


But then my father told Berkovich and Steve Wells about a storage container. He said that this container was used to hide weapons for the Cleveland Hells Angels.


So they coordinated with the FBI and CPD bomb squad to check it out. We decided to bring a bomb dog in to search all these lockers.


You heard former bomb squad sergeant Pat Reynolds last episode. Detective Reynolds was on the scene at the bombing on Lancing Avenue in 1975, which killed Marianne Singley, her two year old son and a friend. Well, Reynolds was also there on November twenty third, nineteen eighty one, standing outside the storage locker.


We already know which liquid explosives were in, but we wanted to justify our search for the dog. When he started the dog walk by about four different times, that didn't sit and the idea was on the dog since that means he's found something that we call the dog handler over and, you know, walking past this again in which he didn't and not knowing there was a woman walking by that locker and make sure he sits down because there is something there.


Once the dog finally sat, Reynolds had probable cause. When we first entered the locker, it was like a holy shit. Why? God, this is an awful lot of stuff we have here. Reynolds wrote a report of what was found. I actually have your report that I made Cleveland Police Department hereby acknowledge receipt of the following illicit weapons we recovered one Smith and Wesson, the shotgun one and 15 on Colt 45, semiautomatic handgun with silencer and the serial number filed down one handgun silencer, one Swedish nine millimeter machine gun, fully automatic down in one car loaded magazine.


Carpin bayonet, one MP forty, which is a type of semiautomatic, a nine millimeter magazine and other silencer. Remington shotgun, no serial number and flash suppressor one. Smith and Wesson gas flare pistol. Now, here are the explosive devices which were found. One half block of military, 10, eight, 90 millimeter tank gunfire, simulator cartridges, approximately 750 foot of detonating called hand grenade marked RF 50 for one by fragmentation, hand grenade and twenty six military fragmentation grenade grenades marked grenade hand offensive MK three eight two gas grenade launcher rocket marked high explosive.


Sixty millimeter so shoulder held small bazooka. One box of Dupont Electric blasting caps containing forty five chanty military blasting caps marked HGP high explosive plastic bags containing brown explosive material, all of yellow blasting wire which is the electric where you would use to detonate materials and two L 312 signal illuminators ground white star parachute flares.


We made an immediate connection with that. Like Bingel. Look at this. Holy shit. The only place we ever seen this before, it was at the Lancing Avenue bombing with three people were killed. There was no question in our minds this is a signature sign to John Hancock and big letters. There is no question in our minds that the time we're the ones to put that device on Lansing Avenue. The storage unit search and its contents made headlines and The Cleveland Plain Dealer in November of 1981, so did the fact that the tip came from an informant, Bernie Berkovich, and this ATF supervisor, Steve Wells, had been protecting and interviewing my father and getting the information that he gave them.


Unfortunately, Luckovich is no longer alive, but Steve Wells is several years ago, well suffered a massive stroke, which made his speech difficult to understand, but his memory is as sharp as ever and his first person account is crucial to this part of the story.


So here you're going to hear Wells followed by another voice repeating his words verbatim, Bernie, that he got from another reporter coverage. And we all to Motel and Bushmiller do hundreds of pages of a major.


Bernie told me that he had a guy from the Hells Angels wanted to cooperate. And we all went to the motel and Bush sat there and told us hundreds of pages of information he put in this book.


We put him in the back of this park in the state park in Loudonville. And then he stayed there and I loaned him my TV and he went into the woods in a cabin and stayed for weeks out in hiding.


And I had a little black and white TV. He watched and he tried to fish, but nothing was there. It was late in the year and the park was closed. Everything was closed.


I. I did ask this question why he came.


He said he just couldn't take it anymore. He told us about all the bombings and all the murders that we knew about and some we didn't know about. And then Tommy Patrick killed his wife to shot her right in front of the Hells Angels clubhouse, and they stuck her in a fifty five gallon drum. They killed the wrong guy in Akron who they thought was groundhog.


And he was supposed to be with the outlaws, which was which was upset because he had killed the wrong guy in a drive by shooting. And he cried about that. About that he cried. Right. He was upset over killings he had been involved in. First time I ever saw a man cry like that, cry like that.


I just think he got tired of all the killing. That's what I think. That's all I ever heard.


I've heard. After one month on December 2nd, 1981, Steve Walz filed a 10 page report with the heading crime impact program, Hells Angels Motorcycle Club. Crouch advised that he could provide information concerning a variety of crimes, including several unsolved murders and bombings committed by members of the E.M.S. crowd, which was advised that no promises could be made to him, nor could any provisions of immunity be granted further. He was informed that he would have to testify in court in order to be considered as a potential candidate for any witness security program.


In addition, he was also advised that he might be required to plead to a criminal charge if the information he supplied warranted such a plea at the time of Crouch's call to the Cleveland ATF office. He was under investigation by this office, but no criminal case had been developed, nor were any criminal charges pending or imminent in connection with the ATF investigation. Crouch has been orally advised that he is not in criminal custody and is free to leave at any time.


It then lists the cases that he told while some Berkovich about Denise Perovic murder 1974 crowd states that he was present when Denise Patrick was shot to death by her husband. Bruce Bloody Sunday murder Sunday was a former vice president of the Outlaw Motorcycle Club, Sunday was riding his motorcycle on 77 in Cleveland around midnight on July 3rd. Nineteen seventy five, a vehicle pulled up alongside and the passenger in the vehicle opened fire, killing Sunday. Outlaw Motorcycle Club member murder, Toledo, Ohio.


Nineteen eighty one crowd states that he knows from statements made who shot and killed a member of the outlaws in the past year. Singly bombing murder on January 7th, nineteen seventy five, a destructive device exploded inside the Williams residence, killing Marianne Sigbrit. Twenty one years old, Michael Siggie, two years old, and Burdell Afet, twenty two years old. Crouch identified the Hells Angels members involved in this incident. Finally, when told he'd need to plead guilty to a felony of his own in order to secure witness protection, my father told them about a crime that took place on June 9th, 1974, less than three months after I was born.


This passage taken from his manuscript describes that crime. At the meeting, everyone agreed and we declared war on the outlaws after church, I got the address of an outlaw named Groundhog and I was ready to kill him. I was given a pump shotgun and told to cut it down and make sure it was wiped clean and the numbers were taken off it with a chisel. And I wrapped in a blanket and stored it where Mary couldn't find it. A couple of days later, the guys came by, said it was OK.


And now back to Steve Wallace's report. Crouch states that on June 9th, nineteen seventy four, he and two other Hells Angels traveled to Akron from Cleveland in a stolen vehicle for the purpose of killing Steve Wargo, a.k.a. Groundhog, a member of the Outlaws motorcycle gang. On arrival at that address, Crouch, armed with a 12 gauge sawed off shotgun and another member armed with a nine millimeter submachine gun, opened fire on a group of individuals standing in the driveway.


When we got out, one guy took a step towards us and we opened up our shot towards the guy and as the flash of the shotgun lit up his face saying that he was a kid and I stopped and froze, then I deliberately turned the gun and shot a window in the house that was lit up.


And I could see there was no one in it. I was looking up the driveway and there was no one standing in the way between me in the garage. So I thought I could shoot into the garage without hitting anyone in. At least the guys would think I was shooting in the right direction anyway.


But just as I shot, one of them ran out from behind the car and I knew that I had hit him. What was worse was that I had seen his face and he was just a kid, too. Then I heard has grown and it was loud and it was a high pitched kid's voice and I knew he was hit bad. After firing at the group of individuals, they fled from the scene, abandoned the stolen car, leaving weapons behind in the vehicle and taking the license plates with them, all of a sudden we were parked in this parking space and they were yelling at me to just drop the gun in the floorboard and leave it.


And all the shells I had there, we were parked right under this big, bright light. It led us and the car up.


I said, fuck, man, every mother fucker and his brother can see us out here fucking with these license plates. I was so mad I reached down and ripped the plate off with one twist and jerked. Without saying anything, they both started walking across the parking lot towards this car and I turned and started following them, I looked around and saw this woman looking at us. And so I started limping real bad, like I had a real bad leg.


Plus I put my hand up to my face and turned away from her.


I jumped in the back seat and blew it, yelling that it was stupid to park this far away from the car and have to walk all the way in that light while that woman was just watching us the whole time. They said, hey, Butch, lighten up, it's over now you can relax, jump towards the front of the car and started yelling that it would never be over because that was kids that we just shot, not outlaws. As a result of this shooting.


Donald Della Sera, 17 years old, was killed by a blast from the shotgun crouches. Description of the incident and the subsequent actions have all been substantiated by prior police investigation until Crouch's interview by ATF. This case was unsolved with no suspects. Unsolved, no suspects. But now the word was out and there was no going back. Here's former Cleveland Hells Angels president Matt Santos. It was just devastating. From California to New York, people could not believe it.


As far as his character coming into question, it was chiseled in granite. There was no way something like that. It was a total shock. Like the guillotine dropped on the word loyalty. Some people love that man, they love that man, they fought side by side, they were going to take a bullet, take a blade, whatever it took, and they knew he would do the same for them. And then you come up and say, well, he's going to roll Anderson and he's going to work for the government.


What could bring somebody to the point that they would roll like this for no reason at all? Out of the clear blue, he's going to get rid of his wife and his beautiful children. He's going to give all that that up for what? For what?


That is not logical. That is not like it doesn't it doesn't it doesn't square. Angels Forever, Forever, Angels. That's a culmination of everything you experience as a member. The ups and the downs, the happiness, the sadness and then the betrayal. This brings us to the moment we were scooped up in Florida, brought to the safe house in Tampa and then put into the witness protection program. But life in the program isn't anything like the movies.


For me, it was just a misery as we were dumped in the most unlikely of places. That's next time on relative unknown. What goods?


A man who's lost. So. Can't take a stand, when is flames gonna go? A relative unknown as a creation and presentation of S. 13 originals, a division of kadence 13 and Roomer Inc executive produced by Chris Corcoran, Zac Lovett, David Beilinson, Michael Golinski and Sooky Holly, written, produced, directed and edited by Zach Levitt, produced and edited by Perry Croal. Our theme song is Change on the Rise by Avi Kaplan Original Music composed by Joel Goodman, Mixed and Mastered by Bill Schulz.


Production Support by Ian Mont and Lloyd Lockridge Field Recording by Rich Berner, Michael Golinski, Perry Croll and Connor waddingham production, engineering and Coordination by Sean Cherry and Terrence Malenko. Artwork, Marketing and PR by Kurt Courtney Josephine of Frances and Hilary. Chef, I'm Jackie Taylor and thanks for listening to Relative Unknown.


The Change of.