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Due to the graphic nature of this killer's crimes, listener discretion is advised this episode includes discussions of murder, incest, sexual assault, rape and assault that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under 13.


11 year old Eileen had never been to the pits before.


She'd only ever heard of the place on the outskirts of town where high schoolers went to drink and party. Anyone who was anyone went out to the pits and Eileen wasn't going to wait for an invitation. She was going to party with teenagers. Then the rest of her class would have to admit she was cool. They'd probably never bully her again.


That night she waited until her grandfather passed out. She biked out to the wooded area toward a bonfire she spotted through the trees. She tried to seem confident. She joined the circle of teenagers downing beers. She even got up the courage to ask one of the boys for a cigarette.


He smirked. Yeah, she could have won, but she'd have to earn it.


He led her deeper into the woods and told the nervous, rosy cheeked girl exactly what the cigarette would cost.


Twenty minutes later, the boy led her back to the bonfire. The teenagers catcalled Eileen as their classmate passed her a beer inside. She felt rotten, dirty even. But for the first time in her life, people were looking at her. She decided they were laughing with her. Another boy even winked as he invited her back to the pits the next weekend. It was a small price to pay for acceptance.


Hi, I'm Greg Polson.


This is Serial Killers, a podcast original. Every episode we dive into the minds and madness of serial killers. Today, we'll delve into the wicked mind of Aileen Wuornos, often credited as the first modern female serial killer. I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Richardson.


Hi, everyone. You can find episodes of Serial Killers and all other cast originals for free on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts to stream serial killers for free on Spotify. Just open the app and type serial killers in the search bar this week will cover Eileen's tumultuous childhood and the patterns of abuse that led to her first kill.


Next time, we'll dive into Eileen's killing career and the unusual M.O. that left police stumped for more than a year.


We've got all that coming up. Stay with us.


You may not know her by name alone, but you've seen her face, the weathered, sun ravaged skin, the wispy blonde hair, the crooked teeth eroded by years of poverty and alcoholism. But most of all, you recognize the wild rage behind her deep brown eyes.


Aileen Wuornos landed in the zeitgeist after Charlize Theron won an Oscar for portraying her in the movie Monster. But before she was a Hollywood villain, Eileen was a tortured soul. Born into a life of neglect and abuse, she grew to embody the violence and hate that followed her since childhood.


Eileen's mother, Diane, was barely 15 when she eloped with her boyfriend, 18 year old Leo Pittman, in 1954. At the time, Diane thought she was deeply in love with a charming older man. But the honeymoon phase was cut short.


Soon after the wedding, Leo became verbally and physically abusive. Yet Diane stayed in the marriage. We can't know for certain, but Diane probably tried to make the relationship work. Perhaps this was due to the stigma surrounding divorce and the cycle of abuse and apologies so often prevalent in abusive partnerships.


Vanessa is going to take over on the psychology here and throughout the episode. As a note, Vanessa is not a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist, but she has done a lot of research for this show.


Thanks, Greg. Psychotherapist Michael Formiga has written extensively about the dynamics of abusive relationships. He explains abusive relationships are fairly simple. They're driven by insecurity, the fear that feeds that insecurity and an expectation of inconsistency, both real and perceived.


Essentially, both the abuser and the victim have very little self-worth and have normalized patterns of abuse. These patterns are challenging to break because they're a product of both the abuser and the victim trying to establish a sense of personal value. The abusers fear they are unlovable, which makes them feel weak. They attempt to re-establish their value through domination and control, which only makes them more difficult to love. The cycle is self sabotaging and self hating. Meanwhile, the victim is.


Insecure and fears abandonment, but attempts to re-establish their value by submitting to others this subject matter is complicated but relevant to understanding the war in household. Eileen's older brother, Keith, was born into this cycle of abuse in 1955. Less than a year later, Diane was pregnant with Eileen.


It was during this pregnancy that Leo's viciousness became public knowledge. He was convicted of raping a seven year old girl and suspected in the murder of another child.


Because of this, Eileen would never meet her biological father. He died of suicide while incarcerated. By the time Eileen was born on February 29th, 1956, Diane was on her own.


The family of three lived in Rochester, Michigan, struggling through a bitter winter. Single motherhood was more than 17 year old Diane Wuornos was able to handle. Even though she was free of Leo's abuse, she still lived in fear of him. She also struggled with feelings of worthlessness, values she unconsciously instilled in her children.


Everyone has a breaking point. By 1960, Diane had reached hers. She abandoned Keith and Eileen with her parents, Lori and Britt awareness in the nearby town of Troy. Perhaps she hoped that her parents could give Eileen and Keith a better life, but mostly she just couldn't cope.


Eileen and Keith were told that Britta and Lori were their real parents, that Diane was their older sister.


Everything about their new lives was based on a lie.


Even still, it was the first time either child knew financial stability, and Britta doted on Eileen paying her attention.


The four year old never received from Diane. Her grandmother was an unemployed alcoholic, meaning she had all the time in the world to spend with Eileen. The pair were close. But again, we learn so much from our parents, and Eileen soon discovered what her grandfather had to teach, much like Eileen's biological father, Lowry, Wuornos was a drunk and physically abusive in addition to beating his family. It's believed that Lourie sexually abused Eilene from a young age.


If Britta Wuornos knew she didn't put a stop to it, perhaps she felt powerless to intervene, much as her daughter Diane had felt about Leo. Either way, from a very early age, it was clear to Eileen that she would need to fend for herself.


She found some comfort in her brother, Keith. The pair were inseparable, even as the war those children enrolled in school.


A former classmate, Karen Gamble, met Eileen in 1962 when they both began first grade at Troy Elementary from the get go. Eileen was too shy to introduce herself to classmates. At recess, she sat on the stoop behind the school, watching the other students play, according to Karen.


Eileen seems scared. Most of the time she was withdrawn, though her temper ran hot. She lashed out at students she believed were ignoring her, which only exacerbated her isolation and frustrations.


Though Eileen was the aggressor, she likely saw herself as the victim in these altercations. Over the years, several mental health professionals have guessed that she suffered from borderline personality disorder, which is oftentimes a byproduct of child abuse. The National Institute of Mental Health defines BPD as an illness marked by an ongoing pattern of varying moods, self-image and behavior. These symptoms often result in impulsive actions and problems in relationships. People with borderline personality disorder may experience intense episodes of anger, depression and anxiety that can last from a few hours to days.


People with BPD can interpret very benign interactions as direct attacks and thus respond in a disproportionately emotional way. Again, that's not an official diagnosis, though. Her behavior, both in childhood and later as an adult, is consistent with these symptoms. And much like others who live with BPD, Eileen sometimes went to great lengths to find peace and a feeling of acceptance amongst peers on the outskirts of town.


There is a wooded area dotted with three small lakes known as the pits. It was where the teenagers and Troy partied. They dig out bonfire holes by the lakes and get drunk.


Eileen started frequenting these parties at age 11. She always showed up looking disheveled with ratty hair and wearing ill fitting hand-me-down boys, paid her no attention and refused to give her beer or cigarettes until she began performing sexual favors in exchange for them.


Over the course of the next year, she became known around town as a sex worker, although her classmates use terms far more demeaning.


Forensic psychologist Dr. Helen Morrison believes that Eileen saw sex as a means to an end, nothing more or less than an exchange. But the psychological damage runs much deeper. Because she had low self-esteem and very few support systems in her life, Eileen had no self-worth until sex built her reputation. But Eileen wasn't finding social approval. She was being used.


The only person besides Britta, who seemed to care for her at all was her brother Keith. And sadly, she started a sexual relationship with him, too.


By 1968, 22 year old Eileen trusted only two people, Keith, with whom she was committing incest, and her grandmother, who enabled her rapist grandfather Eileen, never knew a healthy relationship in her entire life.


But just what it seemed, her life couldn't get any darker. Their grandfather, Laurie, began introducing Eileen to some of his friends in 1971.


One of her grandfather's friends reportedly raped 14 year old Eileen, getting her pregnant.


She was mocked relentlessly by other teenagers in the neighborhood, called every name in the book. They figured she'd been knocked up by one of the teenagers she hung out with for cigarettes. Browbeaten and broken, Eileen sought refuge at a shelter for battered women. There, she gave birth to a healthy baby boy who was quickly given up for adoption. She never really spoke of the child again.


Shortly after Eileen returned home from the shelter, her grandmother died of liver failure after a lifetime of alcoholism.


Britta was one of two people who had ever treated Eileen decently, and her death proved too much for the 14 year old to handle.


Eileen repeatedly ran away from home. Sometimes she would sleep at bus stations or on park benches and. Where she could find really, but other times she hitchhiked with strange men and performed sex work for spare change, it was here that her career as a sex worker began in earnest. It's upsetting enough to picture grown men soliciting a 14 year old girl.


But somehow the most heartbreaking part of this chapter is the notion that Eileen was still trying to finish high school. And around this time, she managed to finally make one friend, a girl in her class named Don Watkins, who came to feel protective over Eileen. Despite the other girls reputation. Don saw the good in Eileen and took pity on her. She wanted to look after her once when they were drinking. Eileen told Don that everyone was out to get her and frankly, Don felt that the poor girl was right.


All Eileen ever wanted was to be liked, and her friendship with Don gave her a small spark of encouragement. If someone like Don could like her, maybe the other kids would, too. So using all the money she'd saved, Eileen bought as much beer and cigarettes as she could afford and threw a party inviting everyone from the pits.


The house filled quickly, and it was clear to Don that Eileen had never been this happy. Finally, after years of being seen as dirt, she was getting recognition for something positive. It was to Eileen the party of the year. But her happiness wasn't to last.


Once everyone had arrived, a group of popular boys grabbed Eileen by the scruff of the neck and tossed her out the back door. The boys locked her out of the house, leaving her to watch from the backyard.


As her classmates drank her beer and made a mess of her home, Eileen was emotionally shattered.


Any promise for social acceptance was crushed, and she received the message loud and clear. Cheap tricks were the only thing she'd ever be good for.


That night, Eileen gave up at her home town and every person in it, the anger that it festered for years turned to pure rage. But just when she thought she had nothing left to lose, the world took one more thing from her. Coming up, Eileen suffers a loss she never could have imagined. Hi, it's Greg.


Have you heard the newest Spotify original from podcast, it's called Very Presidential with Ashley Flowers, and it uncovers the most damning details surrounding history's most high profile leaders. Every Tuesday through the 2020 election, Hoechst, Ashley Flowers shines a light on the darker side of the American presidency. From torrid love affairs and contemptible corruption to a shocking cover ups and even murder. She'll expose the personal and professional controversies you may never knew existed. You'll hear some wildly true stories about presidents such as Richard Nixon, George Washington, Teddy Roosevelt and more very presidential highlights the exploits you never learned in history class, but probably should have family drama, personal vices, dirty secrets.


These presidents may have run, but they most certainly can't hide. Bollo very presidential with Ashley flowers free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Now back to the story, teenager Aileen Wuornos had spent her life seeking acceptance from her peers. She was devoid of self-worth, turning to sex work as a way to connect with those around her.


But after years of relentless bullying from her classmates, she realized that approval would never come. She was completely alone, except for her brother and occasional sex partner, Keith.


But though she loved Keith, there was nothing left for her. In Troy, Michigan, in 1971, at just 15 years old, Aileen Wuornos set out hitchhiking wherever the wind blew her, using sex work to pay for her travels.


She eventually landed in Colorado, where she found camaraderie with a few of the local biker gangs that rode up and down that stretch of highway.


Even though these gangs operated on the fringes of society, they probably felt like a breath of fresh air compared to the bullies she left behind. Whether or not these people respected her, they accepted her, which was good enough for lean over the next few years.


Eileen got into the occasional spat with the law, mostly for petty theft and bar fights. She spent the occasional night in jail but was never arrested for sex work, ironic as it was the most dangerous of her dealings.


Typically, when we picture sex workers, images of street corners and seedy hotels come to mind. But what Eileen was doing was far more treacherous. She stood on the side of highways a few hundred yards from an exit ramp, waiting to solicit clients.


Men would pick her up in their cars and pull off at the exit, where she would service them for as little as 30 dollars. Her choice of location and low prices helped her build up return clientele, and she often saw six or seven johns per day.


And for all this trouble, at the end of each day, she could go home with as little as 200 dollars. Home being a relative term in her teenage years, Eileen mostly slept in the woods or abandoned cars using local gas stations to take showers.


The lifestyle was degrading and difficult, especially during the frigid Colorado winters, which may have been why in the winter of 1976, at the age of 20, Eileen migrated to Florida, hitchhiking the entire way. The warm winters made her lifestyle more sustainable. She may have also seen Florida as someplace exotic, somewhere she never dreamed she'd go.


At that point, she'd been a petty thief and sex worker for nearly 10 years.


Some have suggested that she enjoyed the freedom of being a sex worker, able to go wherever she pleased. And this might be so.


But it's important to remember that Eileen felt worthless. It's possible that she didn't feel deserving of a conventional job. She may have worried that employers would look down on her life. Coach Brian Tracey writes at length about the connection between self-esteem and productivity. He cites several studies that suggest low self-esteem impacts every other part of your life to everyone, Eileen included.


It seemed like she was headed nowhere, destined to live a life of poverty and isolation, which made it all the more surprising when she somehow caught the eye of the most unlikely of characters.


In the spring of 1976, shortly after Eileen's 20th birthday, she met a wealthy 69 year old yachtsman named Lewis Fell.


It's genuinely impossible to understand how the pair struck up a conversation, but Lewis apparently enjoyed the cut of Eileen's jib in mid-May, just a few months after they met.


He married her.


Their nuptials even appeared in the society pages, complete with a photo of the handsome couple, Eileen, grinning widely in a floral blouse, seated comfortably next to a man who might be her father.


She looks relaxed in the photograph, maybe even happy. But remember, Eileen was likely dealing with borderline personality disorder. Her mood swings would make maintaining a stable relationship extremely difficult.


Just nine weeks after the wedding, Louis filed a restraining order against Eilleen stating that she had beaten him with his own cane and on a separate occasion thrown a cueball at a bartender's head. Eileen was back on the streets so quickly her clients barely noticed she'd left. Eileen was the one who torpedoed her marriage. But much like her altercations in grade school, she saw herself as the victim. The annulment and restraining order just proved that the world didn't want her.


And just days after the dissolution of her marriage, Eileen received the worst news of her life.


Her brother Keith had passed away from throat cancer. He was just 21 years old. So the news came as a shock. She had no idea Keith had even been sick.


Distraught, Eileen returned to Michigan for the funeral.


If Aileen Wuornos was lost before now, she was drowning. There wasn't a soul on Earth who she felt truly, genuinely loved.


Her listless, she returned to Daytona, Florida, and fell back into her life of sex, work, bar fights and crime. But this time, things were different. It's very likely that Keith's death triggered Eilene. Even though he hadn't left her on purpose. She felt abandoned, which is sometimes enough to send someone with the deep emotional pain Eileen was carrying into a downward spiral.


She spent the next five years feeling angry, socially isolated and unloved.


By 1981, the 25 year old was self medicating with alcohol no longer functioning in any kind of reality, her next act of theft proved that she was coming unhinged.


Clad in nothing but a bikini, Eileen robbed a local convenience store at gunpoint.


She had no getaway car, so police didn't have trouble finding her. Afterward, she was walking down the street barefoot with a gun in one hand and 35 dollars cash in the other. She spent the next three years in prison, just like when she was in grade school. She developed a reputation for being highly defensive with undulating mood swings.


But instead of alienating herself, she found a little community in the prison truly enjoying the company of women for the first time.


And it was during this stint in prison that Eileen began to understand previously unexplored parts of her sexuality. There are no details about Eileen sex life while in prison. But anecdotally, it seems that a shift took place by the time the 27 year old was released in 1983. Her name was no longer Eileen. Instead, she went by Lee, and though she returned to sex, work and petty crime, she sought companionship with women.


Criminologist David Wilson believes that prison didn't, quote unquote turn Eileen Gay, as the cliche goes. Rather, she was never encouraged to take ownership of her sexuality as a teenager or young adult. She was taught that sex was transactional rather than a part of her identity.


It was only after she was removed from a self harming lifestyle that she was able to explore this facet of her personality. But of course, this is conjecture. It's equally possible that Eileen saw sex with women as transactional, too. Perhaps she simply preferred the company of women and used sex to keep them around.


We don't know how many female lovers Eileen had in the three years after her release, but by the spring of 1986, only one woman mattered a 24 year old hotel maid named Tyra Moore.


It was love at first sight. Tyra had short brown hair and a button nose with a smile almost as wide as Ilene's. She was kind, and Eileen liked her sense of humor. The pair quickly fell for one another.


Until now, Eileen never had a true partner. She had always wanted to share her life with someone. But men never provided her with any sense of stability or comfort. Tyra was different.


However, criminologist David Wilson reminds us that this was not a typical partnership. He said, I don't feel that Warnock's had the underpinning psychological infrastructure to form any kind of permanent relationship. This is somebody who didn't know how to deal on a day to day basis with another human being. People with BPD fear abandonment, causing them to manipulate romantic partners to keep them in the relationship. They also have difficulty managing their emotions. When they feel attacked, they're likely to overreact.


Although for the first several years of the relationship, Eileen's emotional instability didn't seem to be a huge issue. Eileen and Tiro were in love. They lived together in a rundown motel called the Fairview. Tyber worked as a hotel maid, and Eileen built up a client base of military personnel station near Daytona. Everything seemed to be smooth sailing, but as the. 1980S drew to a close, the honeymoon period ended now in her 30s, Eileen's looks were fading.


Alcohol use aged her prematurely, making it harder to get work. And as the country prepared for war, many of her regular customers were deployed to the Gulf. As her customer base dried up, so did her income.


Tiger wasn't willing to lose the room at the Fairview. She made it clear Eileen was not to come home until she had her share of the money for rent and food.


This, of course, drove Eileen crazy. All she wanted to do was spend time with Tyra. Instead, she spent longer hours on the side of the road thumbing for cars that never pulled over. Eileen feared losing Tyra unless she could come up with cash quickly. She'd once again be alone.


That, of course, was too painful to consider. She had spent too much time and energy on this relationship for it to fail. Now, in her whole life, she'd never asked anyone to stay. Not really. Tyra was the only thing she wanted, and she wasn't ready to let her go.


All she needed was money, and she'd do whatever she had to do to get it.


In a moment, silence, fear leads her to drastic action. Now back to the story.


In 1986, after years of loneliness and isolation, 27 year old Aileen Wuornos finally found the love of her life, 24 year old Tyra Moore.


The pair fell for one another quickly. But as time went on and money issues strained their relationship. Eileen grew sick with worry that Tyra might leave her.


She carried that mounting pressure with her as she stepped onto the shoulder of Highway 75 on November 30th, 1989.


She made herself available to passing cars, but business was slow as the sun sank lower over the trees lining the highway.


A car pulled over. Eileen didn't recognize it, which she might have seen as a good thing, a chance to pick up a new client. She jogged over to the passenger side door and slipped into the car of Richard Mallory, a 51 year old electronics store owner.


The pair sped away, finding a lonely stretch of road off the highway, a wooded area where no one was around to interrupt. Eileen thought this would work in her favor. The last thing she wanted while working was a passing cop car.


As it turned out, Richard Mallory also preferred the cover of trees, although his intentions were far more insidious at the time. Eileen had no idea that Richard had recently been released from prison after serving 10 years for sexual assault.


There's no way to know what actually happened that night. We only have Eileen's story to go on, Eileen says. The pair started drinking, working their way through a bottle of vodka when they were liquored up. Richard changed.


He told Eileen that he was a sadist and he could only feel aroused if she was in pain. Then he beat her, bound her hands and tied her to the steering wheel of his car.


He said, You're going to do anything I want you to do, and if you don't, I'll kill you.


He proceeded to assault and sodomized her. Eileen recalled, thinking she had to fight or die.


She waited until Richard stepped out of the car and started walking around toward the trunk.


Somehow she escaped bondage and reached for the pistol she kept in her bag on the floor. She wrapped her hand around the gun.


Just as Richard realized what was happening. He flung open the passenger side door to stop her.


She shot Richard in the chest. He stumbled backward, falling face up in the dirt.


Eileen weighed her options. She figured, well, if I help the guy and he lives, he's going to tell on me and I'm going to get arrested for attempted murder. All this jazz, the best thing to do is just keep shooting him.


She fired three more bullets into his chest. One shot pierced Richard's lung, delivering the fatal blow.


Once she dragged Richard's body into the car, she plucked his wallet out of his back pocket and grabbed his cash, discarding the wallet on the floor. She counted the money, a grin spreading across her face. It was enough to cover her share of the rent. She couldn't wait to show Tyra, but first she had a body to deal with.


Shaking with rage, joy and adrenaline, Eileen drove Richard to a nearby junkyard where she covered his body with a ratty old carpet. She then drove his Cadillac home to the motel.


Eileen was ecstatic. She handed Tiger a wad of cash and asked her to come outside there. She showed off their new car and laid out Richard's valuables on the hood.


Tyra asked what happened and Eileen confessed she had killed a client. She explained what Richard did to her, that it was all in self-defense.


Tyra later said that Eileen's confession scared her, but that she didn't know what to do and just asked Eileen that they never speak of it again. And while that might be true, it's also possible Tyra invented that narrative after the fact because she certainly had no qualms about keeping the money or the dead man's valuables. The only thing she wouldn't keep was the car, which she worried would lead the police to their doorstep.


So Tyra and Eileen drove the Cadillac to Ormond Beach, about 20 minutes north of the Fairview Motel. They abandoned the car in a remote patch of woods, then hiked back home.


The next morning, a deputy found the abandoned Cadillac. He searched the car and found Richard's wallet, some unused condoms and the empty bottle of vodka. Richard and leaned down to the previous night.


He filed a report about the abandoned vehicle but had no reason to suspect Richard Mallory was dead. Richard was an ex-con, probably sleeping off a hangover somewhere. Nobody suspected foul play.


Meanwhile, Tirah and Eileen were on a high. Eileen had made the rent and had more time to spend with Tirah. It was a blissful end to a strenuous year.


But while Eileen had already forgotten all about Richard Mallory, police were just about to discover his body.


On December 13th, 1989, a couple of locals scrounged through the Daytona junkyard looking for scrap metal to sell. They couldn't help but notice a buzzard on the far side of the yard, seemingly fixated on an old carpet.


Curious. The men went to investigate. They could see something discarded beneath the rock as they drew nearer. The smell gave the men a good idea of what they were about to find. They uncovered the body of Richard Mallory, blood stained and partially decomposed.


He was shirtless and his pants pockets were turned inside out. His hand had been knocked out and picked apart by a vulture. Police had no leads. But given the fact that Richard's body was moved postmortem, they assumed his killer was a man. Perhaps it was a robbery gone wrong that would explain the empty wallet found in Richard's car, despite the physical evidence.


His case soon went cold and across town his money was drying up, meaning Eileen was back on the highways looking for work. But her attitude toward clients changed. In previous episodes, we've covered male serial killers who targeted sex workers because they thought these women were corrupt and sinful. Many of these killers convinced themselves that they were doing the world a favor by taking lecherous women off the streets. Now, Eileen felt the same way about her johns. After all, she was just trying to get by.


The men who degraded her were the real villains.


After a lifetime of being abused and ignored by men, she had, for one fleeting moment felt powerful. When she murdered Richard Mallory, she was even able to live off the profits, a reward for having rid the world of an abusive man.


Now, at the beginning of 1990, the 34 year old was back to scraping by on the pittance she received from her regular clientele. And though they didn't beat her deep down, she knew they were all the same.


They saw her as an object to be discarded. They used her just like the boys down at the pits.


She had spent her life accepting this kind of treatment. But that fleeting feeling of power changed. Her feeling loved by Tirah changed her. A seed of self-respect was planted, and now every gene she picked up fueled her vitriol.


That ever present anger festered into a rat's nest of resentment and hate. Something within her was now unbridled. Everyone has a breaking point, and Aileen Wuornos had reached hers. Thanks again for tuning in to serial killers.


We'll be back soon with part two of Aileen Wuornos story. The murder of Richard Mallery seem to be a tipping point in Eileen's life, as though decades of anger had finally found the perfect release.


She would spend the next year on a killing rampage and make history in the process.


You can find more episodes of serial killers and all other part cast originals for free on Spotify. Not only does Spotify already have all of your favorite music, but now Spotify is making it easy for you to enjoy all of your favorite podcast originals like Serial Killers for free from your phone desktop or smart speaker to stream serial killers on Spotify.


Just open the app and type serial killers in the search bar will see you next time.


Have a killer week. Serial Killers was created by Max Cuddler and his APAs cast. Studio's original executive producers include Max and Ron Cuddler Sound Design by Nick Johnson with production assistance by Ron Shapiro, Carly Madden and Aaron Larson. This episode of Serial Killers was written by Aaron Lannes with writing assistants by Abigail Canon and stars Greg Polson and Vanessa Richardson.


Hi again, it's Greg. Before I go, I wanted to remind you to check out the new Spotify original from podcast, very presidential with Ashley Flowers.


Every Tuesday through the 2020 election, host Ashley Flowers shines a light on the darker side of the American presidency, exposing wildly true stories about history's most high profile leaders. There's torrid love affairs, shocking blackmail schemes and even murder.


I can't recommend this show enough to hear more of follow. Very presidential with Ashley flowers free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.