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Due to the graphic nature of this killer's crimes, listener discretion is advised this episode includes discussions of murder and assault that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under 13.
When 24 year old Tyler Moore first met, she felt a rush of excitement like a roller coaster tipping over the first big hill. The two of them took the plunge together, their stomachs churning with butterflies.
But over the past year, those butterflies had slowly turned to nausea.
In fact, tirhas stomach knotted every time Eileen walked through the door, especially on nights when she came home with valuables, cameras, necklaces. The occasional wedding band Tirah knew better than to ask where they came from. In her heart of hearts, she knew somewhere across the state another body and lay discarded off the highway.
But one night, Eileen didn't come home with her typical stash.
Instead, she had a velvet jewelry box, a small diamond ring, modest but the most expensive thing Eileen had ever bought.
Tirah knew it was a mistake. Everything inside of her told her to run except her stomach. The butterflies were back, fluttering in an all new way.
She couldn't help but say yes. Hi, I'm Greg Polson.
This is Serial Killers, a podcast original. Every episode we dive into the minds and madness of serial killers. Today, we finish our look into the life of Aileen Wuornos, often credited as the first modern female serial killer.
I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Richardson.
Hi, everyone. You can find episodes of serial killers and all other cast originals for free on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts to stream serial killers for free on Spotify. Just open the app and type serial killers in the search bar.
Last time we discussed the sexual and physical abuse Eilen suffered as a child, likely causing her to develop borderline personality disorder. Unable to function by the typical rules of society, she lashed out at everyone around her. Eventually, her rage led her to kill a client after he attacked her.
This episode will dive into the aftermath of this murder and the disturbing year to follow. We've got all that and more coming up.
On the night of November 30th, 1989, 33 year old Aileen Wuornos was attacked by one of her clients, 51 year old Richard Mallery. She was able to escape him long enough to grab the gun she kept in her purse, then shot him in the chest four times.
A few days later, while Mallory's corpse decayed in a junkyard, Eileen was at a pawn shop getting what she could for his valuables. The big ticket item was his camera, which she hoped would fetch a decent sum.
The pawn shop owner told Eileen he'd need to see her ID and take her thumbprint just in case the camera turned up stolen. She agreed. Then she took the cash home to Tyber Moore, her 27 year old girlfriend.
On the whole, we don't know much about Tirah and Eileen's relationship. An investigator would later suggest that Tiro wanted everything in the world, and Eileen wanted to give it to her from the outside. It did seem like Eileen bent over backward to provide for Tirah, and Eileen seemed to think that if she didn't make enough money, Tirah would leave.
That said, it's hard to tell whether Tirah made specific demands of Eileen or whether Eileen was simply projecting her own deep seated fears and insecurities.
Vanessa is going to take over on the psychology here and throughout the episode as a reminder, she is not a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist, but she has done a lot of research for this show. Thanks, Greg.
Last week we spoke in depth about Eileen's mental health. Many medical health professionals have suggested that she suffered from borderline personality disorder, a mood disorder that is oftentimes rooted in childhood trauma. Essentially, children from emotionally volatile families grow up believing that this lack of stability is normal. As they become adults, they struggle with feelings of worthlessness. They also come to expect instability in all of their relationships. When that instability is absent, they assume their partner has lost interest.
And because they fear abandonment, they act out so that their partner must prove their love. Essentially, people with BPD spend half their time lashing out at their partners and the rest of the time trying to please them so they won't leave. As such, it's hard to know whether Tirah actually would have left or whether Eileen simply convinced herself that money was the only thing keeping her around. Either way, when that money began to run out, Eileen might have panicked and someone had to pay.
On the morning of June 1st, 1990, a surveyor named Matthew Cocking call the police station in Brooks County, Georgia, just across the Florida state line. He'd found a body white guy, mid 40s, completely naked, except for a baseball hat cocking, counted six bullet wounds in his chest. Police knew cocking he wasn't a frequent flier or anything, but he'd had a few run ins with the law.
They also knew he carried a gun and was generally hostile before police headed out to the crime scene.
They wondered aloud whether Conking had perhaps shot someone in the woods, then pretended to find the body.
But when they got there, the body had already started to decay. Not likely the product of a run in earlier that morning. And though swore at police for even suggesting he might be to blame, he was angrier than he was defensive. A good sign he was innocent. But that still left the police with an unidentified body on their hands.
Then a few days later, on June 6th, another John Doe turned up in Pasco County, just north of Tampa. This body was so badly decomposed that police couldn't obtain fingerprints. The coroner. Or couldn't even estimate a time of death. However, they were able to determine that the nine bullet holes in his chest were from a 22 caliber pistol, as had been the case with Richard Mallory the previous November, Pasco County detective Tom Muk notified investigator Marvin Padgett, the detective assigned to Mallory's case, noting the similarities.
The two men agreed to keep in touch on a hunch.
Detective Monk also called the Georgia Bureau of Investigation in the hopes of tracking down another lead. When he heard about their own John Doe, he knew he was on to something.
Three bodies lying within a few hours, drive of one another, all riddled with bullets from a 22 detective. Mark didn't have enough information for a full investigation just yet, but he resolved to keep an ear to the ground.
The next day, June 7th, police in Brooks County, Georgia, identified their John Doe, 43 year old David Spears of Bradenton, Florida.
He'd been missing since May 19th, but police still couldn't explain how Spears body ended up across state lines three hours north of his home. Of course, at the time, they had no idea that Eileen had driven him there in his own car, dumped his body along the highway, picked his pockets and driven off.
Police believe they were looking for a male killer and that spears this murder was a possible robbery gone wrong. And they never guessed he was simply one of Ilene's unlucky clientele.
But while police concern themselves with who these men were, we might ask why these men specifically? After all, Eileen was servicing about seven johns a day. What did these men do to land on the receiving end of her 22? We must remember that in addition to potentially having a personality disorder of some kind, Aileen Wuornos was a survivor of rape not only at the hands of Richard Mallory, but also her grandfather, Lourie, his friend who impregnated her at age 14, and potentially other johns.
She was almost certainly struggling with the trauma that follows sexual assault. According to the Center for Substance Abuse Treatment, victims can experience a myriad of reactions, including depression, anxiety and mood swings. But a big underlying factor in these behavioral shifts is a fear of recurrence.
For this reason, many victims of sexual violence are unable to return to activities or places that trigger memories of the assault, which, at least for a while, is considered a healthy method of self care.
But Eileen didn't do that. Just weeks after being attacked by Richard Mallory, she was back on the highways waving down clients, some of whom became her next victims. In an interview with Vanity Fair, psychologist Phyllis Chesler tried to explain Eileen's mindset. She said perhaps these men were especially violent in some way. It could be something they said or did or something they reminded her of.
In other words, she may have chosen her victims impulsively after they unknowingly triggered her in Eileen's mind, she was likely attacking them before they had the chance to turn on her, although as she became more confident in her killing, she also grew sloppy and didn't trouble to keep a low profile. That year, Independence Day was hot and muggy. Rhonda Bailey could feel the hair sticking to the nape of her neck as she sat on the porch sweating down the street.
Neighborhood kids were playing with fireworks. One of them was bound to lose a finger by the end of the night.
As she sat enjoying the otherwise peaceful evening, something caught Rhonda's eye, a gray Pontiac Sunbird thundering down the street. It wasn't swerving, but something about the driving made her take notice.
The car went careening off the road in front of Rhonda's house, only stopping once it crashed into the thick brush. Two women scrambled out of the car mid-flight. Tira and Eileen Eileen's arm was bloody.
Clearly an injury from the crash. She did most of the talking, berating Tyra for some infraction. Both Ilina and Tirah had beers in their hands and chugged them before throwing the empty cans into the woods.
Then the women got to work, pushing the damaged car out of the brush and back onto the road. The Pontiac was in bad shape. The windshield was so smashed you couldn't see out of it. Not that Eileen much cared. She and Tirah jumped back in the car and floored it. They made it about 100 yards before the sunbird gave a death rattle and broke down completely from her porch.
Rhonda watch. Just long enough to see the women flee the car and jog down the road and out of sight. Rhonda called the police immediately.
A member of the Orange Springs Volunteer Fire Department, Hubert Hewett, responded to the call. On his way to the accident, he spotted Eileen and Tiro walking away from the crash. He stopped and rolled down his window, asking if they were the women from the accident.
Eileen snarled at him, so he rolled up his window and drove on.
Hewitt found the abandoned car a short way up the road. He had expected the smashed windshield and dented exterior, but was surprised to find bloodstains all over the inside. He called in the vehicle identification number immediately.
Police learned that the car was registered to a man named Peter Simms, a 65 year old retiree who worked as part of a Christian outreach ministry. He had been missing for almost a month. It was clear to the authorities that there had been some foul play. Hewitt correctly assumed that the women who cursed him were behind it, though by the time he connected the dots, Eileen and Tirah were long gone.
When forensics combed the smashed up car for clues, they were able to lift a palm print from the driver's side door. It didn't pull up any matches, but it was ready for the next time someone ran those prints.
Finally, a teletype description of Eileen and Tiro was sent to every police station in the country. For now, they were wanted in connection with the disappearance of Peter Simms, but soon they'd have to answer for a great deal more.
In a moment, pieces of Aileen's puzzle begin falling into place.
Hi, it's Greg.
Have you heard the newest Spotify original from podcast, it's called Very Presidential with Ashley Flowers, and it uncovers the most damning details surrounding history's most high profile leaders every Tuesday through the 2020 election. Host Ashley Flowers shines a light on the darker side of the American presidency. From torrid love affairs and contemptible corruption to shocking cover ups and even murder. She'll expose the personal and professional controversies you may never knew existed. You'll hear some wildly true stories about presidents such as Richard Nixon, George Washington, Teddy Roosevelt and more very presidential highlights the exploits you never learned in history class, but probably should have family drama, personal vices, dirty secrets.
These presidents may have run, but they most certainly can't hide. Bollo very presidential with Ashley flowers free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Now back to the story. On July 4th, 1990, 33 year old Aileen Wuornos crashed one of her victims cars while driving drunk. She and her girlfriend Tirah were spotted by two different witnesses who gave police detailed descriptions.
Now, Eileen and Tiba were wanted in connection with the disappearance of Peter Simms. At the time, police suspected Peter might be dead, but had no reason to assume his disappearance was connected to several other murders across the state.
For her part, Eileen didn't suspect that law enforcement was on to her at all. She and Tirah carried on business as usual, which usually meant blowing off steam at their favorite dive bar, the last resort.
Eileen was a regular. Everyone regarded her as a wild character, but she wasn't without her charms.
Eileen would play her favorite songs on the jukebox and buy drinks for her fiance. Her idea of a romantic date night.
But it's hard to say whether Tirah still felt that tenderness. The bloom was off the rose and Tirah was pulling away.
As we explained previously, Eileen had a strong fear of abandonment strong enough that she sought ways to manipulate Tirah into staying. Because people like Eileen are so controlling, they tend to gravitate towards partners with a poor sense of boundaries, someone who will lose themselves in a relationship. Given Eileen's extremes, it's reasonable to believe that Tirah also suffered from attachment issues.
Even if she was beginning to recognize Eileen's violent and dangerous tendencies, she may not have been emotionally ready to leave.
Meanwhile, Eileen likely took her partner's compliance as a sign of encouragement to continue her killing spree. From there on out, her kills were fast and scattered.
On the morning of July 30th, 50 year old Troy Burris set out from Gilchrist's sausage, where he worked as a delivery man. He should have been back that afternoon.
So when he didn't show his manager worried, fearing he'd been in a car accident, she called around and discovered that Troy never made it to his last few stops around.
For the next morning, Marion County sheriff's deputies found Troy's truck abandoned along State Road 19.
Eileen would later confessed to his murder, claiming she killed him in self-defense. Though this seems suspect it's possible. Troy solicited Eilene for sex on his lunch break, but more than likely he saw her hitchhiking and decided to help for his good deed. She killed him. His body was found on August 4th, already badly decomposed. He was so unrecognizable that his wife was only able to ID his wedding band, which Eileen left on his corpse like the rest of Eileen's victims.
Troy was shot with a 22 caliber pistol. But for whatever reason, Marion County police didn't make the immediate connection to Richard Mallory's murder as Detective MCAD over in Pasco County. While police searched for Troy's murderer, Eilene struck again, this time her victim was 56 year old Charles Dick Humphries, a retired Air Force major and former police chief. His body was found in Marion County on September 12th, the morning after his disappearance.
Eileen had shot him in the head and torso seven times with her trusty 22 caliber.
Until now, one could argue that all of Eileen's victims were clients who became aggressive. But Dick's family has railed against any suggestions that he picked up Eileen for sex. They argue that he wasn't that kind of person. In fact, he worked for the Department of Health and Rehabilitative Services, specializing in helping abused and injured children.
Of course, someone's job has no bearing on the kind of person they are in off hours. In fact, our assumptions about what someone is capable of based on their social standing oftentime enables killers and abusers.
But in this case, it really didn't seem like Dick had it coming. Rather, something else was going on with Eileen. More than likely, relationship woes were causing her to unravel and they would lead her to make one final kill.
On November 17th, Eilene found herself about three hours northwest of Daytona earlier that night, she and Tirah had a blowout fight and leaned left in a huff. Tiro was going to leave her. She knew it, and that thought terrified her.
She needed to get away for a couple of hours before she even realized what she was doing. She found herself riding shotgun next to a John who had picked her up for a quickie.
That was hours ago. Now, that same John was lying on the floor of his car, naked and dead. Eileen was behind the wheel driving into the Florida Panhandle. Eventually, she pulled over on a dark logging road and dumped 60 year old Walter Gino Antonio into a ditch. Police found his body the following morning.
From the moment Antonio's case landed on Captain Steve Vinegar's desk, he knew that this was the work of the same killer who scattered bodies across Florida as well as in southern Georgia.
He just wasn't sure who that killer was yet.
Wasting no time, he formed a multiagency task force. He also cracked the first piece of a complicated puzzle that had been long assumed that all of these victims are killed by hitchhiker. But because the killer was strong enough to dump the bodies far back from the road, they assumed the killer was a male.
But something about that felt odd to vinegar. After all, nobody stopped for hitchhikers anymore.
They were dangerous, which meant that whoever was thumbing for a ride must have seemed non-threatening.
It was then that Benziger remembered the teletype description of the two women who crashed Peterson's car. Peter was still missing, and Vinegar was willing to bet that these two women might know a little something about that. So he set out to track them down.
Vinegar made a few calls to the press. By the end of November, newspapers across the state had published police sketches of Eilene and Tirah, asking the public for tips on their whereabouts.
When Eileen saw the sketches, she felt nauseous. She didn't know what to do except dispose of the murder weapon. So she threw her 22 caliber off the Rose Bay Bridge, never to be seen again. By mid-December, police were inundated with leads. The most helpful of these came from a man in Homosassa Springs who rented a trailer to Eilene and Tirah.
A year prior, he was able to give police Tirah Moore's full name, though he only remembered the blonde woman as Lee. On December 13th, Binaca received a call from police in Port Orange, Florida. They'd been tracking Eileen and Tirah since September, and they knew where the couple was staying, the Fairview Motel, or rather, where the women used to stay.
After the police sketches hit the papers, Tiber's, tethered to Eileen, snapped. She fled to her sister's home in Pennsylvania, leaving a heartbroken Eileen behind. Eileen left the Fairview on the same day Benziger received the tip with Eileen in the wind. The task force was back at square one until Banega got another.
Brilliant idea. Since all of the victims had been robbed, he decided to check the pawn shops around Daytona vinegar's struck gold. He found Richard Mallory's camera, the one Eileen pawned almost a year prior. The pawn shop still had her thumbprint on file, and an hour later it was matched to the palm print lifted from Peter Simms Sunbird. Brinegar finally had a name, Eileen Carroll Wuornos.
Now all they had to do was track her down.
On the evening of January 8th, 1991, 34 year old Aileen Wuornos was drowning her sorrows at the Port Orange PUP. She wasn't doing well since Tirah left. She was alone, too depressed to work and once again homeless.
Sleeping on an abandoned car seat in the parking lot at the last resort that night to drug dealers showed up to the pub and made polite conversation. They introduced themselves as bucket and drums and seemed like nice enough guys, especially after they bought Eileen a beer.
Of course, she might not have been so friendly had she known they were undercover cops.
They chatted her up for roughly an hour, leaving shortly before midnight. They reported back, confirming they'd made contact with Aileen Wuornos. Tomorrow they'd make their arrest.
Eileen woke up a few hours after sunrise on the morning of January 9th, then lounged around in her car until 11:00.
When the last resort opened.
She ordered her first beer of the day, then started hitting up the other patrons for quarters. She wanted to play her favorite song on the jukebox around 11 30 a.m..
Eileen was surprised to see bucket and drums walk through the door. Of course they'd had her tailed, but Eileen just figured it was a happy kid. Coincidence, she liked them, sure, they were a little cagey, but that's drug dealers for you. They bought her another beer and gave her a quarter for the jukebox. As far as Xylene was concerned, they could stick around so long as they kept buying her drinks.
The threesome chatted at the bar for a while. At one point, Drumm stepped away to make a phone call. As Eileen sipped on the beer, he bought her drums, put his sting operation into motion.
20 minutes later, Buchannon drums invited Eileen outside for a cigarette. She chugged the last beer she would ever have, then followed them out to the door. The moment she stepped into the parking lot, six officers swarmed and pander to the ground.
In a moment, Aileen Wuornos unravels. Now back to the story on the morning of January 9th.
Nineteen ninety one police took 34 year old Aileen Wuornos into custody. The next day, two officers from the task force flew up to Pennsylvania to interview Eileen's ex fiance, a 27 year old Tirah more.
Tyrer confessed that she knew the murders happened but didn't know any of the details. She'd asked Eileen to never tell her about them. Any time Eileen began to hint, Tirah cut her off.
Of course, this glossed over her involvement, covering up Richard Mallory's murder. But police didn't care much about that. Tirah didn't have a record, so they knew she would never commit these acts on her own.
If she agreed to testify against Eileen and convince her to confess, they'd give her full immunity. Tirah accepted the deal and accompanied police back to Daytona, where they put her up in a motel from their tirah called Eileen.
At that point, Tyrer was the last person Eileen expected to hear from. She figured Tirah was long gone, just like everyone else she ever loved. So Eileen was unnerved to hear her ex-girlfriend sounding distraught over the phone. Tiba told Eileen that the police were after her, that she didn't know what to do.
Eileen started to comfort her former lover, but stopped short.
Hey, she asked suspiciously, is there somebody else in the room with you?
Tirah denied it, but Eileen seemed to know better. She said, Just go ahead and let them know what they want to know or anything, and I will cover for you because you're innocent. I'm not going to let you go to jail. Listen, if I have to confess, I will.
The next day she did exactly that.
Eileen confessed to all seven murders, including that of Peter Simms, even though police still hadn't found his body over the next year, as state prosecutors prepared for trial, Eileen reached a level of national infamy for her crimes.
Soon, producers and publishers came knocking. She sold her life story rights in the hopes of making millions, but learned that Florida prohibits prisoners from profiting from their crimes.
That law didn't stop certain police officers from Eileen's task force making money off of their experience working the case. The same producers paid them handsomely for their life rights.
Meanwhile, Eileen finally had the attention she craved as a young girl, and she loved it. She told her story to anyone who would listen. The only problem was that in each retelling, her details varied wildly. Sometimes she shot the men in cold blood. Other times she killed them moments before they attacked her.
It would be easy to assume that she was lying, recasting herself as the victim. But as always, the truth is more nuanced. Remember, Eileen's first murder was almost certainly committed in self-defense. The rest were likely the result of having been triggered by her victims.
Whatever the motive, it's fair to say Eileen was not in her right mind during any of the shootings.
As we mentioned earlier, victims of sexual trauma fear a recurrence of their ordeal. It's worth noting, then, that the majority of Eileen's victims were around the same age as not only Richard Mallory, but her grandfather, Lowry, the first man to ever rape her. Of course, this is conjecture, but seems like more than coincidence.
Even though Eileen confessed to all seven murders, police only had enough physical evidence to tie her to the murder of Richard Mallory. Nevertheless, by the time the case went to trial on January 14th, 1992, there wasn't a person in the country who hadn't heard Eileen's full confession.
The media had dubbed her but damsel of death. Eileen's trial lasted about two weeks each day, more depressing than the last, the prosecution painted a picture of a wicked, vile woman who killed a middle aged man in cold blood. Oddly, the jury was never told that Richard Malorie was a convicted sex offender. So Eileen's claim of self-defense was easily overlooked. Things only got worse when the state called their star witness to the stand.
Tyber more avoided eye contact as she testified against her former lover. She told the jury that Eileen was dangerous. Tyber claimed she hadn't lived in fear of her.
Eileen was in shock. It was a brutal way to discover that the love of her life had utterly betrayed her, that she had feared her for the entirety of Tiber's testimony.
Eileen stared down at her hands.
It's hard to describe how despondent Eileen was by the time she took the stand on January twenty. She was devoid of hope. She had little to tell the jury other than to say she hated people and would absolutely kill again.
Two hours later, that jury convicted her. Five days after that, Judge Uriel Blount sentenced her to death later that year.
Eileen recanted her initial testimony, saying she had never been assaulted and that all seven of her kills were robbery motivated. She waived her rights to any appeals. Eileen just wanted to die.
She spent the next 10 years on death row depressed and angry as reality slowly slipped away. During this time, she spouted troubling conspiracy theories that made her warden wonder whether she was having a psychotic break because of these concerns and those of Eileen's lawyer. Her execution was delayed.
Three psychiatrists examined Eileen for mental competency. All three agreed that she was legally able to be executed. So in 2002, Governor Jeb Bush lifted Florida's temporary stay of execution and signed her death warrant.
Eileen was interviewed the morning before her death.
Initially, she seemed in high spirits and repeatedly told the interview that she was, quote, OK with it. But as the interview progressed, it became clear that the woman before the camera was emotionally drained and completely lost when asked if she'd been betrayed by everyone she had trusted. She said, That's right, I was. That's why I don't care if I'm executed and leave this planet.
She then went on to further explain her frustration. Eileen told her interviewer that she'd been set up. She launched into a theory that police knew who she was after her murder of Richard Mallory. She'd left fingerprints all over his car. How could they not know it was her? She wondered. She decided they did know and had hatched a plan.
She believed that police allowed her to continue killing so that she would clean up the streets for them. Once she'd after a few bad guys, they'd arrest her as a serial killer. Then they'd make money off her life rights.
She also claimed that police had tortured her for the past five years, not through conventional means, but through sonic pressure released into her cell, through the mirror on the wall, the sonic waves were squeezing her skull and sending shock waves through her system when she tried to tell the truth.
All this from a woman who supposedly passed a psychiatric evaluation less than 24 hours earlier the next morning, a 46 year old, Eileen, was led from her jail cell to a part of the prison she'd never been before, a stark white room furnished only with a gurney and a black wall mounted telephone.
Eileen was strapped to the gurney. The few guards and the executioner waited for the black phone to ring with news of another stay of execution. But no call ever came.
Eileen's last words were perplexing and mirrored the chaos that she felt in this life, she said. I just like to say I'm sailing with the rock and I'll be back like Independence Day with Jesus, June 6th, like the movie Big Mothership and all. I'll be back by nine. Forty seven a.m.. Eileen Carroll. Wuornos was dead. Eileen is often seen as a monster and for good reason she was. But in recent years, she has also garnered a cult following of those who believe she had no choice in her actions.
For many survivors of sexual assault, Eileen holds a certain allure, a manifestation of a forbidden revenge fantasy, an unlikely anti-hero.
Even as recently as September 2019, Aileen Wuornos was glorified by rap artist Cardi B in the cover art for her single press, of course.
This narrative is problematic for a number of reasons, but it also speaks to the rage felt by many victims of abuse and frustration over the lack of resources available to economically disadvantaged people. Eileen story is both heartbreaking and fearsome. She's by no means a hero, but she is certainly a cautionary tale, one we would all do well to learn from after her execution.
Eileen was cremated by the state. Then her ashes were sent back to Troy, Michigan, to her childhood friend, Dawn Watkins, who scattered Eileen beneath a walnut tree in her backyard. It was a small gathering of one.
Eileen left the world much as she had moved through it. Thanks again for tuning into serial killers.
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Have a killer week. Serial Killers was created by Max Cuddler and is a podcast studio's original. Executive producers include Max and Ron Cuddler Sound Design by Nick Johnson with production assistance by Ron Shapiro, Carly Madden and Erin Larson.
This episode of Serial Killers was written by Aaron Lannes with writing assistants by Abigail Canham and stars Greg Polson and Vanessa Richardson. Again, it's Greg, before I go, I wanted to remind you to check out the new Spotify original from podcast, very presidential with Ashley Flowers.
Every Tuesday through the 2020 election, host Ashley Flowers shines a light on the darker side of the American presidency, exposing wildly true stories about history's most high profile leaders. There's torrid love affairs, shocking blackmail schemes and even murder.
I can't recommend this show enough to hear more of follow. Very presidential with Ashley flowers free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.