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This week in Hartland, Maine, a surprise visit from family convinces a woman to make a trip to the police station and inform them that they need to start searching for body parts. Welcome to small town murder.


Hello and welcome back to small town Mernissi, yeah, and Jimmy, yeah, indeed, my name is James Petraglia. I'm here with my co-host, Jimmy Wassmann. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today on another crazy I don't even know what to call it. Just crazy, crazy edition of Small Town Murder. We have a wild Valentine's Day adventure for you, for the love. It's for the lovers this week. Exactly. And Virginia.


Yeah, the small town murder and Virginia both for lovers. If you're not inside the United States, have no idea. I doubt you get those commercials, but the rest of the United States gets those commercials anyway. If you haven't done it yet, quickly, a little housecleaning. Please give us five stars on Apple podcast. It does help a lot. That purple icon. Why does it help?


We have no idea why we don't work for them, but can't call it. We don't have no clue. But thank you for doing it because it does help a lot. Head over to shut up and give me murder dotcom right now, all sorts of merchandise, your small town murder merchandise, your crime and sports merchandise. If you have not listened to crime and sports, you're just missing out. It's not for us. We're telling you for your own good.


Listen to crime and sports. You don't have to like sports. Oh, Jesus, no. God, no. And it's almost better if you don't like sports. You just have to, like, fuck up. You just have to like listening to us, making fun of someone who's really destroyed their life and didn't have to know. That's the thing. They really they went out of their way to mess it up. So that's what's fun about it.


So check that out. Also check out P.S. I hate this movie. I get to make fun of bad romantic comedies that I'm forced to watch. So there's that and everything like that. And if you have not done it yet, also you want to get on patriarchy. Oh yeah. Our patron is cooking as always. We have all sorts of stuff. Our last Patreon episode we hope you enjoyed was The Love After lock-Up Season three. Yeah, review of that.


And which is I just wanted to do a whole season on love after like I can't stop. I want to not stop talking about that forever. So that was so much fun. I didn't want to fuck editing it. Just show it for what it is. I don't need editing. Just live stream it now.


I mean, I don't care 24/7. Just watch them sleep for whatever's on these fucking someone. So I'm going to stab somebody. Someone someone's going to stab somebody I don't know on our next page. Ryan, also a lot of fun is going to be Old West murders. Teressa Oh, yeah.


We're going to go and it's going to be like 1870. Eighteen eighties. There's a couple a little Wyatt Earp thing. Oh, terrific. James gang thrown in there. And then just a bunch of wild, crazy things that happened in the eighteen hundreds. So that's a lot of fun. We talk about Tombstone and things like that a lot. So right up my people are interested. That is patrie on dotcom slash crime and sports to get all of that and more lots of good stuff.


You get the whole back catalogue, you want to be on Patry and that's where the action is. Patriot Dotcom slash crime and sports. Plus you're going to be a producer, so you get a shout out at the end of the show. Sure. Oh boy. Jimmy mispronounced your name. It'll be fantastic. And if you just want to have good karma and be a producer as well and have your name mispronounced, you can do that at PayPal.


Also using our email address, crime and sports at Gmail dot com. Yes. That said, I think it's time for the disclaimer. Let's do it. It's a comedy show. It's a comedy. There's murder. Yes. Horrible murder every time. That's what makes the show interesting.


But on top of that, it's not we're not going not being gratuitous about it. That's the thing. No one's we're not celebrating how hilarious it is for someone to be murdered and dismembered. That's not what's going on here. That's all the crazy stuff that leads up to it. Yeah. Small towns and make fun. I mean, who's not from a small town? Everybody's from somewhere that sucks. So we make fun of that. We make fun of murderers.


Sure. Because they deserve it. Absolutely. You know, that's that's how this goes. We go out of our way not to make fun of the victims or the victims families because we're assholes, but we're not scumbags. You have it. That's how it works. I think it's a nice balance. And if you don't think so, you don't think that comedy should ever be with true crime, then maybe this isn't for you out the car. That's it.


But for everybody else, the wants to have a good time.


I think it's time to sit back and shut up and give me an hour to do this. Jimmy, you got into that one. Yeah. Let's go on a trip, shall we? I'd love that. Let's do it. We are going this week. We're heading up to the northeast. It's far northeast as you can go in the states here. We're going to Maine country. It's been so long. Yeah, it's beautiful. Is it's nice.


Nice place. We're going to heartland Maine. And if Maine is if you're going to pick a place, it's not great. It's going to be this area. Oh, real. In Maine. Yeah. This is like a central south central Maine. Oh, not on the coast. Something like that. No, no. Nothing like why would you. That's the things. I mean this, this place doesn't sound as you picture Maine, you're like, oh that's so nice.


And LightHouse's Blakroc Beach, you hear about this and you go, oh that sounds like a lot of the rest of the country. That doesn't sound wonderful at all. Why would you go all the way up there and freeze for that? Doesn't make sense, though. An hour and 40 to Portland, Maine, about forty five minutes over to Bangor. OK. Oh, baby. And about to. Two hours to New Remain, which was our last main episode, which was Episode one twenty five on June 26, 2019, my fox, which was just, I don't know, and a half one, two years ago, I think.


Yeah. And and, you know, 20, 20 times. So this is in Somerset County. It's a big, big town in terms of square mileage. But there's a lot of kind of big plots of land and I'm sure. Forty three square miles, pretty, pretty large here. History of this town. They have a couple of explanations of the town of Whyatt where the name came from. I always like to try to figure out where the hell is, because sometimes it's just it got like bastardise from some other name and they just didn't care, which is always fun when that happens.


So I like to find that doesn't matter anyway.


Or you want they named it after somebody terrible is like he ran a tavern and killed seven prostitutes and was convicted murderer, but he was freed by his buddy who was the lieutenant governor. Some weird thing like that. Like so they name the town after him. What what's a strange thing? So two explanations have been advanced here.


One says that the old English word for deer, which would be heart, means heartland and the like, its land of the deer, Kangs, what they're saying.


Another is that the community is located in the heart of the hills.


Those are the two, the old English word for deer, which is an English word. Yes, but they talk jayati heart, which is deer not I don't know.


What are they doing? I'm sure there's something to that, though. Someone's going to tweet at us and say that we don't know Southam make any sense. Not at all. To us, that makes no sense.


I'm sure it makes perfect linguistic sense to someone who's been to school for these things in England or anywhere, really with us it's nothing. So we have no education on this matter whatsoever. This first settled in about eighteen hundred, which is late. Yeah, that's late. That means that that the good stuff was taken by eighteen hundred. The Northeast was pretty much. Oh it was their host. Yeah. People, people knew about it.


This was like well I guess there's stuff over there that nobody wants so we'll go inland and they got here in seven and whenever early in the year like January, February. When did they land a Plymouth Rock. I don't remember the exact one. I'm just thinking, yeah, if you get to Maine and you're on the coast and it's cold and you get here twenty, thirty miles, you probably go fuck it up unless there's nothing here. We've seen the goods.


This is it. Yeah. Because it gets pretty barren. Oh boy. Does it mean it gets Maine is not just nice. That's all it is. Yeah. Maine is a coast and Canada that's what it is. Basically it's a coast and then it's Nova Scotia from there. Enjoy Newfoundland. Right. America, Newfoundland states. Er so the it's first settled eighteen hundred by James Fuller and that's the guy's name community had a tavern by eighteen eleven.


Got that going right away of course. Right away. Well that's who called. This place is terrible. Yeah it's drink here it was. Call the shit and I need something warm.


Who's going to sell us booze. Yeah. You all right. Good. That was known as the Heartland House. The area was settled in eighteen hundred. That's when people started coming. It was first incorporated as Warren Town in 1820 and then it changed its name for some reason. Who the hell knows why the area didn't get a library until nineteen three? OK, they had a tavern in 1811 and didn't choose to bring books into this scenario for another hundred years.


Basically there's we have booze, I mean it just populated by a bunch of weissman's that sounds like sounds like I'm going to read the booze label but not for. That's enough reason for now. That's good. Exhausted. Yep. They start this, they don't even give it a library. That was just when they got books and they just put it in the town hall.


They just put books in the town hall from nineteen thirty five to nineteen ninety the the library collection there because it's just this Roven collection of books was, can be found in a building that now houses a tannery outlet and even give it its own library. Finally nineteen ninety one. I guess they gave it like a permanent. Well keep the books, we're going to keep them here on ninety. It's been ninety years. Nineteen ninety one.


Unbelievable. We got a tavern and took one hundred years for us to get books and then it took another ninety years for us to figure out where we're going to keep the books permanently.


So they got booze and then we're too distracted until Michael Jordan was a champion. That's it. Put books in a building to the building.


Isn't that amazing. We shall not house the books until Will Smith has his own television show. Until The Fresh Prince heads westward. Yeah, we shall not we shan't house the books from buckles on shoes to to a taxi cab ride across America. That's unbelievable. An expense, but that's all I could ever think of. And it's. Good God, how is that the most efficient way of travel you can think of? Well, even a train. Yeah, something if you right our plane take a cab from Dallas, you could have been fine.


Got a private jet that's expensive. Probably could have moved out of the hood. And Philly.


I mean, I assume that that was picked up on the other end by the by the Hill's family. And I would hope some a butler. That's what I mean. I figured they were picking up the tab. That's why they said, I'm in a cab. I pictured the mother like they want to be fancy out there, then. Fine, yeah. I'll send them out there in a cab and they can pay for take that. I figured that was the mom's point of view, like they live in Bel Air.


We'll be fine. Thank you. So big and fancy. Take care of it for the three thousand mile cab ride and drive.


No library. So Wool Mills began operating in 1862 when they made the blue material for soldiers uniforms. Oh, it was just from the union pumping out what blue wool to get up at the tannery owned by Irving Tanning Company. It's been there forever. So there you go. And it was the that's where the that's where the it's now where the library was. OK, so instead of that to like, let's have animal shit in there. Weird making sandals.


Found some reviews of this town. Once again, I must give a review disclaimer. These are not our reviews. These are what others have said.


This is not our opinion and posted. Never been there. What we're doing is reading them. So it's this is the equivalent of somebody reading a score of the football game. Right. And if your team didn't win, you shouldn't be mad at the person who told you the score you had at your quarterback. So so we're saying here reviews of this town, three stars for this. They're all pretty decent. Hartford is a small town heartland heartland. Hartford Heartland is a small town with access to stores and community resources with friends, friendly townspeople.


That sounds like a nightmare. It houses about eighteen hundred town folk townsfolk. So there's townspeople, town folk. What year is this? I feel like this is like the the land behind Mr. Rogers and the king pops out what the hell is going on here? And he's even as a tannery to tan the hides into leather. Thank you for making that clear as well. What they do, she's this person sounds like a nightmare. I don't think this is the person that gives a Yelp review, but no opinion.


I went there and I ate that. Yeah, thanks. I went there. Great. Arrived at this time. My husband ordered this. My husband got a promotion that day and we decided that it was, you know, my husband, including this. My wife was very excited with her business launch. So we decided to go to the. And then there's no just this is what we ate. Thanks. No conclusion. Had a burger. The town does not it does slow down around 8:00 pm.


And for those that like the quiet nightlife, this is the place.


Wait, what's a quiet night out?


That's what I mean. I think he I think they mean like a nice quiet like at home. But nightlife in my house. Yeah. Nightlife is a specific term. It is there. That person's a nightmare.


They don't get it. They don't get anything. Three stars.


Hartland has its ups and downs. Is it its advantages and disadvantages and its pros and cons. Yeah.


Thanks for the. You mean like everywhere. A bowl full of cliches. That was great. And way to go out on a limb fucking generally. Right. But I have lived in this town for four years and I'm all and I'm always thinking of my safety. But I also but also I don't know where else I'd rather live. I don't like this guy.


This person, if you saw the way it's written to it's a nightmare. There's no I don't trust the schools. They're one star. Is this one an hour into the negative ones?


Those are the positive ones, by the way. That was the best. Some bad. Here's one. Lots of drugs. All right. Lots of stealing, lots of rats. Well, do they mean literally rats? This like some mob guy.


God has lots of rats and is down. There are a bunch of rats, I tell you, too many drugs, too much stealing, too much drugs. They're all tons of mind. The mush. They're a bunch of rats. These these fucking bums in the state. A bunch of rats. Yeah. No gas station, very untrustworthy people. OK, these are all one. These are all sentences by the way. Lots of drugs, lots of stealing, lots of rats, no gas station, very untrustworthy people inside of the list, I believe.


But if you go back to a couple of sentences ago where there's no gas station, that's the thing. I'm stuck.


Lots of untrustworthy people. One restaurant with pretty bad food. But it's an absolutely amazing place.


To become a drug dealer or you is amazing. It's a wonderland. It's a wonderland. Refueling are using. That is, I hope that they get a job somewhere. Just review and shit because that was true. That's a good that's a good. It's very succinct. Yeah. Enjoy that a lot. They should definitely do the Chamber of Commerce work for this town I believe. Here we go.


One star again would like to see those whom you sub. Distances get help instead of being on the streets at night screaming and causing people to wake up, very specific people scream outside this person's house. And for them, that's the whole world.


But everyone else is like, why? Just because Bob is outside their house screaming. There's one guy who. Eight hundred people. So there's not a lot of screamers. I imagine there's one guy screaming and they happen to be outside this guy's house is why these reviews are hilarious. They're so personal. They get some double pain.


When does something just shut the shut up? So I don't know. I'll try that for a minute. That works. And stop opening your window and screaming. Get some help. Yeah. There you go. Someone help. Bob, many people do not like to stay away from home for fear their home will be broken into. Oh, good Lord. This sounds like even leave. There's rats. No gas stations can't trust anybody. One restaurant and the food sucks that it shuts down an eight o'clock anyway, so who cares?


And don't go out to the restaurant anyway. Yeah, no one. Because the food's bad, but no do. While you're gone, people will pillage your house and disappear. It sounds like a house. You go out the front door, come in the back. What a terrible place. If you don't loot, if you just went on those four reviews, you go, this place is awful and I never want to go here or I want to go and watch.


Yeah. Sounds awesome to see like did like a drone camera above the town. Let's just watch the and this guy screaming, they just went to the store quick. So a bunch of marauding group of crackheads are stealing and shit. I don't know. What's that. Somebody's Truman Show heartland is our place is a nightmare. They've had pretty much the same amount of people almost since nineteen hundred. Not much changes around these parts, put it that way.


It's not a not a lot of change going on from what it sounds like. Current population. Sixteen hundred and seventy six people, tiny, tiny, down about seven percent since nineteen ninety. So people are trickling away quickly and more males and females by a long shot which is there's like fifty four percent male, which is very strange because the median age is forty eight, which is a lot higher than regular. Yeah. So usually when it's all older people you get way more females.


I don't know what, I don't know what's happening in this town, but maybe the ladies are the ones that are leaving.


The women die first or they I don't know, they they had first dibs at the gate, at the gas. I don't know what happened. The rest of the stats are pretty similar. Married is fifty fifty, which is pretty normal. Nothing out of whack. Their race of this town is it's quite Maine, ninety eight point five percent white really.


So pretty white. That's may as well be 100. That's very white. Well zero point zero percent black. Yeah. It's not that. No, no. Black people. Zero point zero percent Asian, eight point nine percent Native American point four percent Hispanic point for fascinating and point two percent. Two or more races. Oh it is whites only chetwynd.


This is very white is a very white town.


Not sure I couldn't find the religion in here. It was weird. It was like this town was hard to find stats on there hiding in this place. I don't know what it is they're hiding because. Well have you. They can't leave. If someone knocks on the door to ask him a question like don't answer it, good God, they're going to steal everything. Jesus, it's just Bob yelling again. Don't answer it. It's the census, man.


They will start. They I don't know this guy. We're not giving them shit. He's got nothing to hide. Who knows who's behind them. Median household income here, though, it's usually about fifty seven thousand in the rest of the country here. Thirty one thousand three thirty one. So pretty low for household income. Cost of living isn't that bad here. That one hundred is average. Regular, as we know, like toward the coast. Maine is very expensive.


It gets there. It gets that much surprise. I mean, it's not that bad. It's it's for toast. It's prohibitively cold. It's the summer on the Maine coast. It's like, oh, it's going to warm up to fifty eight today. It's not it's not swimming when even if you got in the ocean. What you have there. What the fuck is that. It's like, it's just needles. It's like a windbreaker somewhere that's. Do you wear a jacket in the summertime.


August in Maine is still painful.


It's cold. It's called so.


Right. It's tough. So the overall cost of living is seventy six point one here. So that's that's pretty under the hundred housing, though, is very low. Thirty four point seven for housing. Really. Yeah. Median home cost eighty thousand three hundred bucks. Oh, cheap. What are these homes right out here.


Yeah, more than half the houses are worth less than one hundred thousand dollars. So what that says a lot right there. If we've convinced you obviously there's know what else are you going to do with yourself and come here. I am revetted.


We have for you the Hartland main real estate report, average two bedroom rental here is about eight hundred fifty six dollars a month, which is less than the average house.


Is there one hundred grand buy a house. Yeah, I found. Here we go, I found a two bedroom, two bath, yeah. Fourteen hundred and fifty six square feet doable. The house isn't great. I mean it needs some updating and shit like that, but it's livable. You can live in it. It's decent and it's on thirteen point two acres. Holy shit. Load of land. Sixty four thousand nine hundred dollars. Get the fuck out.


Fifteen hundred square. I mean, you could remodel rent 32. Unbelievable. You could build another house behind you. Who knows. I found a five bedroom, two bath. Twenty five hundred square foot. Yeah. Not run down. Very nice. This amazing huge beautiful porch that runs all the way in front and curves around and it's gorgeous. This porch. Amazing. One hundred and sixty four thousand nine hundred bucks. Five bedrooms, five bedrooms.


It's on over an acre. Wow. This is great. And then I found a three bedroom, two bath. It's only a thousand seventy two square feet. The house is OK, but it's on nine point to two acres and it's got like this big front yard and where like the street would be is instead water because you're right on Good Lake.


So it's yeah. That's where you are trapped. Yeah. Like you just go right out there, you can go right out in your yard and there's a lake. You got your boat.


One wall. I know it's ridiculous. Yeah. Five hundred ninety nine thousand nine hundred bucks for that. But I mean this it's nine a.m..


Yeah. And it's location. You got water.


You could have a resort. You could make a resort there if you want. It's there like it's it's gorgeous things to do in this wonderful, wonderful place. I found there's not a lot to do now. I found there's a main academy of country music.


What I found that seems very no, it's it's really specific. Right. Main Academy of country music. Is there country music in Maine? I mean, there's it's Hecky up there, I guess. But I mean, it's not different here because, I mean, it's not country that it's more like folky. Yeah. Flannel shirt and lobster roll.


Kind of a it's not a Luke Bryan. No, no. It's not a Nashville or South Carolina country. Dust anywhere. No, it's not a dusty type. No, that's moist and cold. Yeah, it's weird.


And I mean where it is still this is I don't know if this even took place, but it was on March 22nd, twenty twenty. It was called the Cabin Fever Show and it was at the Irving Tanning Irving Tanning Community Center. OK, so apparently there's a community center built around the tannery, which is so jacked about that. It's very strange, just like is this deadwood? Where are we? And it's yeah, there's that. So I don't even know what the hell happened.


Somerset County Jam Fest is another one with outdoor music festivals, with several bands performing across three days. It's spacious freedom field. Wow, great. The festival features guest speakers, open mikes between performances. Nope.


And a bouncy house. So if you are looking for the most irritating place out in the world, it would be open mikes with bouncy houses in the background. There's also a horseshoe tournament. So don't worry about that. You got to go out there and camping and bonfires as well. Oh, boy.


This is why they like country music, because they like to do country things. They like to go outside. I mean that they like doing the shit that's in country music. Yeah, songs in the lyrics. If you go outside, that doesn't mean you have to listen to shit music all you do. And I don't know why that's and I'm not saying at all country shit.


I don't like it, but they seem to like Eddie James. Oh I that's how it hits my ear. I don't know how other people, other people seem to and I don't get it either. You seem to like a lot of it. I like a specific type. I it sure is for you here now also there is and this is all of these like cold weather places have shit like this, the Summerset Snow Fest. OK, it's I guess if it's going to be that cold for that long as well, embrace it for.


Yeah. You can't just go. Well we're not doing anything for eight months out of the year. You got to beat them, join them kind of thing. Yeah.


I guess we'll have a snow fest, you know, instead of being pissed about it. What if we smile about what if we just did it and then maybe it'll be fun. It's like a festival about everybody else in the country seems to be really happy when it snows. Yeah, except for us, because it snows constantly. So it's coordinated by Who Cares? Summerset Snow Fest is a celebration of all things winter yay activities including a box, sled race, dog sled rides, skating tubing and the Northeast's only equestrian skijoring competition.


What the fuck is that? They put in ski jaunting. They don't put skis on fucking riding a horse. They don't do that right. I just pictured the horses doing like cross-country skiing. Yeah. Is that what it is?


Are they making like real rocking horses? Like, well, me welcome skis.


No jaunting ski joining with a J. That's. Seems one word skijoring not out, not joining skijoring, do you have, like the horse pull you on skis? I think maybe it runs to steer the horse from that. Oh, I don't think you do. I think you're pretty much like your water skiing. And so you're at the mercy of everything. Like you're all a fishing pole with like an apple on the end just to let you know if there's like a rain you can this way.


That sounds horrifying. It says this is a not to be missed winter festival. I guess so. In the heart of the beautiful Kennebec River Valley. Wow. OK, then, crime rate in this town. What we're interested in, obviously, property crime is actually a little bit under the average. So, like, you can't even leave your house. Apparently there's one bad street with screaming people and robberies and the rest of it. It's pretty close to average.


So I don't know. Violent crime, murder, rape, robbery and of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime is less than it's under half of the average.


So it's pretty incredibly safe. Sounds like a little safe place and everyone is complaining pretty hard about it. I don't like I said that very personal. Those reviews are very personal, which I like to know people's beefs. Yeah. So that said, with a safe little town where you could buy cowboy acreage for sixty five thousand dollars, let's talk about a murder, a Valentine's Day murder.


This is going to be wonderful. Didn't happen on Valentine's Day, but I feel it's a story that needs to be told on a holiday for lovers. I feel like why not? Let's get into this here. Let's talk about a couple, a married couple.


We'll talk we'll go back to nineteen ninety nine and catch up with this married couple. All right. Yeah, they're an older couple, actually a little older than we usually cover, but they're they're they're active, let's just say, in terms of murder. So, you know, why not. We're going to talk about Vela and Jean Gorgan. Yeah, Bella is the lady and Jean is the fella here. Jean is sixty two years old in nineteen ninety nine and Vela is fifty five years old in nineteen ninety nine.


And there are a couple there of the married couple. They've been married for thirty seven years. My words of nineteen ninety nine. He got himself a young one. Yeah. She was right out of, right out of high school or wherever she was right out of into adulthood. Right out of childhood is the better way to put it. And he'd been through enough. Yeah exactly. He was thirty. He was all right. Well he's seven years older so he was seven.


Yeah he's twenty five.


I in my head I had like seventeen and a twenty five and eighteen.


I think they were roughly when they got married. So silly because I'm terrible at math. Well math it's on the fly. You never know. And you're still trying to figure out what the hell skijoring is. I feel like to do they put the ski right on the horse or do you have skis. Which one is do they call it that? Because ski horse sounds too much like seahorse skijoring, though.


I don't know. I don't know what that is. Equestrian skijoring.


And so obviously people are going to we're going to know this by the end of the show. So honest, please don't show us all this is more fun to just make it up. Is my sister Ski Gawn for the gold medal? I mean, we're going to have all hers pictures. We get it, people do it. But I don't know what it is now and that's the problem.


So Vela and Jean here married thirty seven years now.


She Vella has had a tough upbringing. She did not come up easy. And a lot of times, I mean, when they got married was still in the times when you got kind of ladies wanted to get married as quick as possible in this like the sixties. And that was what they were told was bullying and got to be married.


By the time you're 20 or so, you're going to shrivel up. Nobody wants you. Nobody is going to watch anymore. They're going to think, what's wrong with you? Nobody else. Yeah. Yeah. So that was what it was going to be, an old maid. Well, better go to secretarial school. Yeah. You're all you're all dried up when you're twenty one. Give me twenty five and dusty. Good Lord Jesus.


Yeah. So it's not so. And when you think about it too, she had a bad childhood and a lot of times people have bad childhoods, will do anything to get out of it. And back in the day the number one easiest thing to do to get out of your home if you were a young lady was to get married there. It is a hell out of there. Find somebody and you're out at least out of that house. Problem is, if you come up in a shit house and you're leaving out of some sense of desperation to get out of it, a lot of times you don't end up with the best person because your your example has been terrible and even subconsciously, someone who seems nice, just something bad in them, that you can see that somewhere subconsciously and you end up with them.


So usually it's just something about them makes them an option. Yeah. For good or bad. For good or bad. But then you run with it. There's something that our brains do that attract us to things that are terrible, just to repeat the patterns also of it. So we have yet to figure out why what benefit that is because your brain always does things that benefit you. And that's one thing that it does that has no benefit to you whatsoever.


It's just a horrible role model. Yeah. And it just everybody's there's also a. That that in human, just just human, just our what we do, it's inside us, it's it's in our makeup to want to get into a situation where you're an underdog just to be like, I'll show everybody. Yeah, but 99 percent of the time, it ends badly.


Yeah, it's true. But like, evolutionarily, why would your brain do that? Because your brain is developed over time to to be better for you. Like it blocks certain things out that are bad. And but the thing of like I'm going to seek out subconsciously. Right. This source of trauma and repeat it over and over again, that in our chemical makeup is that in our culture, it's got to be it's what's in your brain. You don't even know what why you're doing it, because you do it like it subconsciously.


And we've yet to figure out what the benefit of that of like what is. Why does your brain do that?


I'd love to know that that's my number one psychological mystery.


Hey, everybody.


Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about a wonderful, wonderful thing. GrubHub, you know all about. That's what an oh, what an invention. I love hearing about the heroes that can deliver you a hero. That's how amazing they are.


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Here's what evolutionary purpose does this serve to make your brain better? I don't get it. Then why do we love watching it just because we love watching somebody that doesn't necessarily think they deserve it? And when you don't, I mean, we just want to watch people win. I suppose we don't because we love making people lose on purpose. I mean, we love panzanella, somebody for one little mistake and ruin and everything.


That's what happens. And I don't know what I don't know what our I don't know what the what the goal there is. But Vela came up in a tough household. Her house was just full of violence. Her father was a violent alcoholic, very bad person. To put it this way. This is this is a story of from her childhood. I'll give one anecdote that'll sum it all up rather than just, you know, chronical years of terribleness.


Here's one incident that says it all. She's eleven years old, OK? Sourest 11 year old girl is a vulnerable age, obviously, for anybody. And that's a that's a tough time, right. And down. Well, her father was beating her mother unmercifully, unmercifully to the point of where Velho was scared that he was going to kill her. It was just an unmerciful beating like sitting on her chest beating the shit out of her. So Valla, at eleven years old to try to save her mother's life, picked up up, picked up a pistol, Hellyeah from his nightstand and beat him over the head with it until she knocked him out.


And option I was expecting a pistol broke into a bed and beat him so hard she broke the pistol in the pieces at eleven, beat him until the pistol broke Tarong. Eleven year old like Pecci in Goodfellas, like Billy Batts like that's how that's. You know what I mean. That's but imagine that scene. Imagine the horror of that scene for an 11 year old girl, your mother being beaten to the point of, oh, my God, is she going to get killed?


I she needs someone to step in and it's got to be an 11 year old. I better beat my father unconscious with a fucking pistol because that's all I can do. And I'll do it like. So that's that's harrowing right there. So that's good. That's that sums it all up. That's the only real tail we need to tell from our childhood to give you a really good insight.


It's pretty amazing as an eleven year old to know to get to that option to where it's like grab a gun and you're like, well, I can shoot this or yes, things heavy as fuck.


I think that's what she said. And who knows if he's she's seen him pistol whipped somebody before maybe or with the mother or something else. I mean, it's a big heavy metal object. Yeah. She might have looked around and said, what's heavy? Right. That's heavy. I mean, shit. And if he turns around, I can only shoot him. I guess that is that doesn't work. That's another option with this thing. Yeah. I mean but also I mean, that's the for an eleven year old to have the strength to do that, though, she must have really summoned up some serious umph behind her deep dug.


Yeah. You got to dig deep to to be a grown man unconscious as an eleven year old girl. I think she's good in the clutch. Yeah, she's good in the clutch. And this is October.


How drunk she was to ensure and you know, good point.


But that also helps I'm sure so. But still very much a horrible childhood coming up. So awful.


She at, you know, meets meets Jean here at a young age and gets married and gets the hell out of that household and probably never looked back, I would imagine, with that sort of thing.


I mean, that's the back then, too. That's kind of what you did. They got married in the early sixties. So it was just get the hell out of here and leave it all in a dust cloud behind us.


So they they they over the years, they build a life together. They're not they're an odd couple. They're not. They're odd birds is the way kind of everybody puts personalities clash. No, they're just kind of weird. They kind of stick to themselves. Personalities get along, they get along fine.


Well, sort of as we'll talk about for a little while, they seem to to the outside world when they're they do everything together, they're always together, but they also have their problems internally that the neighbors do see because police show up. So generally, when the cops show up, people notice, yeah, cops pull up in front of someone's house in your neighborhood. Everybody looks out that. What's going on down there? Yeah. Yeah, somebody's going to get arrested is my neighbor.


My neighbor. When I moved in do that because he goes, you get a wife or kids or anything. I'm like, no, just kids that will be here every other week. And he's like, oh, good last house. The last people who lived here is a lot of TV, a lot of dve.


And I was like, oh Jesus. What he's oh, the violence. He's like, the cops are here. All right. Well, no, there will not be any of that.


Sorry to inconvenience you. I mean, a lot of DV. A lot of what. Hey, it's a very odd way of saying it's a very odd way of saying it, like they left all sorts of shit out in their yard. Like that's what it sounded like. That's a fucking. Unflappable, very empathetic. Yes, sir. You're really a person of the light telling me that she's very nice, very empathetic, lot of a lot of DeeVee.


That's nice. I mean, it was I had to shut my blinds. I really did so annoying. Shut my blinds, put my earphones and listen to an audio book because I couldn't handle hearing, you know, cop lights flicker.


It's like a strobe. And on the back of your eyelids when you're trying to sleep is a real nightmare.


Wow. That's real sympathetic towards the towards the lady that lived there. That's right. If I can get it together. I mean, Jesus, keep it quiet.


John, thanks. Thanks. I'm going to not talk to you anymore. You sound like an asshole at the meeting next month while you avoid that.


Can you imagine going to an AA meeting? I wouldn't do that. I don't want anything to do with that. No, no, no.


This they stick together. They stay apart from people. The Gorgons, which. I appreciate that. I appreciate that.


Really. I like your style. Way to keep to yourself, Gorgons. Keep to yourself. Don't get all involved in the way and everything like that. Velho by the way, by the way, over the years she makes a living here and there as a butcher's assistant, so that's what she does. So you know, well get down and dirty, chop up a you know, hand side of beef and you know, whatever.


So that's handy to have around the house. Absolutely. I get like big cuts and they hook it up. Yeah. You could save a lot of money, take the meat off the bone and not lose a lot. Oh, it's nice.


Oh yeah. There's certain things that butchers can do, make everything better. So that's good. Good to have around the house.


Tell you I don't like that ribbon of fat on the back of a of a New York strip. I'd rather it not be there. You could do the whole not lizard thing is. Yeah. It's like I don't like that part's good. But then the part attached to the right you're like, well this isn't this is all good. This is bad.


I just paid seventeen dollars per wait for that and like the rib eye and the fats attached to it, you don't have to cut that however much that shit is. I just paid for that.


Yeah, that's what I'm saying here. So over the years though, there's been problems between Valla and Jeem as well.


The neighbors have talked about some reports of abuse here and there. And over thirty seven years, the police have been there quite a few times, which is bad. Obviously the like this we're talking about nineteen ninety nine and in the previous June of nineteen ninety eight, the sheriff's department was called to the house to buy by Valla as like a protection thing to stand by while she gathered her shit and left.


Basically she said she was afraid that Jean wasn't going to let her leave and was going to hurt her while she was gathering her shit. She wanted to get out of there. So the sheriff's department had to come and wait. Standby. She gathered her shit. What's good for her is better than dying in the house. So she gathered her shit and left. But she ended up going back because Jean has an illness, she has a heart condition and shit like that.


So she ended up going back because he's ill. I know that's what ended up happening. I don't know if she thought, well, I mean, he's he's you know, he's older and sick now. So he's going to be not as physically aggressive. I don't know what her thought process was or if it was just her her pattern of abuse. Since you seek it out and you keep going back. And I you know, it's one of those things who knows?


But I feel terrible that she didn't stay away. The records show that the main police and a Somerset County deputy were called to the home four times in the last couple of years. And so it's been three times with the sheriff's department, one time with the state police. So it's been you have four times in a couple of years. It's that's a lot. It's a bit much it's a lot of police interaction. That's it's a lot of TV, as your neighbor would say, every six months we got some TV to watch too much.


Any is too much. And every six months is way over the line here.


So it's been and these are one time one of these times it was actually Jean that called. Oh, which was strange because the other times it was Valla calling, obviously. So I don't know if that was Jean, like preemptively calling because he knew up I hit her. She's going to call the cops. I better call the cops.


I don't not sure what the fuck out of here. They're on my side. Yeah, that's I mean, I don't know if he thought that's what it was.


Well, whoever calls him is right. I don't know if he thought that's what it was like.


Which isn't isn't that's not the way it works at all. I mean, if you're abusive, you can't just call the cops. They come over. Well, I mean, he called. So he must have reasons. I don't think that's ever been said. I hope. Well, he called.


So he's got two points now. Your side. That's what I mean. Let's hear it.


That's not how this works at all. Score. No, I don't think that's how it works when the other guy goes to jail. Yeah, no, no. So he says she has told the cops to that she feels her life is in danger and things like that. But for some reason, there's never been an arrest out of this situation, pretty much to the cops. I don't know, because it's rural Maine in the nineties. But the cops will just show up and go, all right, you guys, all right now, OK.


And then they leave. Basically, it was no. Oh, that's wild. Yeah. I don't know what I guess. I don't know if there was no like not not in a violent sport. I think any violence is too much. So, yeah. I don't know what the story I meant for them to like step in the ad doesn't seem like it's pretty low for some villain.


Jean doesn't seem worth a pair of handcuffs, I don't think. But maybe a stern talking to. Yeah. That's not how this should be going down at all. So either way, that's how it works. There's a neighbor named Margaret Dunn who sounds like everyone has a neighbor named Margaret Dunn, I feel like. Look through your neighborhood, someone's name, Margaret Dunn. She lives near the Gorgons, she described them as, quote, neighborly.


Yeah, what does that fuck? What is neighborly mean? Margaret, dig deeper. Seriously. Get a better a.. What is neighborly? They were there and didn't what didn't kill your pets when they went out in the yard to shit. What what did they do or not do. Right. What is neighborly. They've got brown sugar on hand. Exactly. That's neighborly to wave at them.


Neighborly on the way from the house to the car. Give you a little wave. Yeah, that's neighborly right there. So I don't know what it is. So they said they weren't close friends, though. They weren't buddies.


It was just they were in the neighborhood. So when I see them. Yeah, everybody when people live in the same neighborhood for 30 years, you give a little. There you go. Yeah, well, there we are. Stupid way. I acknowledge you, Dennis, are here I am. And then there's me, Dennis, and always somewhere more like a stiff arm. Now, we're not doing this. It's not happening.


Leave me be the gay disapproval, you know, I mean, like the thing. And I'm your friend. I envy you.


Yeah, yeah. That's no, no. Sans the Bible is just happening. It's the Heisman minus holding the ball. It's a stiff arm, khakis in one hand instead of football. It's khakis and a stiff arm on my way to my car. And I look at you and I talk to him often and so leave me alone. Oh God I hate that. I hate that way that you see anybody out there like, oh, they're going to see me.


And whenever I think we have to talk now, I. Hello. I say hi. There you are. Yeah. This is I can't write a novel. Oh my God. I love it. Yeah. Sometimes it's nice to talk to a neighbor just to know my life's better than yours. So I guess sometimes it reminds me it's it could be worse.


I just I get all I get, like a Megaman fantasy's or whatever it is like I just I'm, I am legend sitting there like, please God evaporate. I am no grass.


The guy next to me is out there as it's like that could be so much worse. Look at you. I could have a job to be doing right now. You have to water some shit. No I can't do it.


But these people. Poor bastard.


My my next door neighbors for the two years I've lived here have this man has never gone inside.


It's all he's out. He's never gone inside. Have you ever come over. Not seen it out there. It's always out there. Sometimes he has somebody else out there with him.


He's always in his garage sending something he has sanded and cut enough things where he could have built a house twice the size of his. Oh, yeah. With the wood that he's used, there's no way that he's doing anything. He hates his family and he's hiding out there. And he just he buys wood to make sense of it all in disorder. That way, his wife opens the door and she hears machinery going off. She's like, I he's busy in there doing something.


He hates his family. And it's clear and I want to tell him, kill yourself, please, I beg you. Or move away, get a divorce, do something, because I can't fucking look at you anymore in your driveway.


All you would have brought in five minutes if he didn't have knee deep sawdust in his garage. That's that's what I picture. He just takes wood and chops it to pieces and it's nothing. That's what he's doing. He's keeping Home Depot going.


What are you coming to bed? This this door's almost gone. Oh, it's a it's a lie. What are you building out there anyway? It's going to be beautiful. Don't worry about it. You've been building it for twelve years, honey. I don't understand. It's going to fill the garage in sawdust and drown myself in it never, never goes inside.


So that's what I picture. And I picture a neighbor waving. So anyway, how are you? I hate me.


My life is miserable. Hello. So Margaret over here, she said they quote mainly kept to themselves, which is pretty interesting.


Mainly, mainly to mainly keep to themselves, mainly keep to ourselves Mainers keeping to themselves and they also they keep to themselves, except for the police interaction, which is obviously they have to talk to others. And Jean Gogin, the husband would frequently walk up the road to visit with Dunn's husband and son. So Margaret didn't really hang out with Jean, but apparently are with Vola. But apparently Jean walked around, was more kind of the more social of the to talk to the husband and son.


I mean, it's all a bunch of this is very rural, this area. This is all like there's like logging roads and shit here. So when you're talking about logging roads, that's rural shit. So they're it's they're probably talking about hunting and fishing. Jean and Jean and Val are both kind of avid hunters and fishers and fishermen and hunters. So who knows if they're talking about where the trout are biting or who the hell knows what they're doing with the herds running, where the herds run and where the you know where you are?


I don't know. So anyway, they. They said that Gogin here, Avella had gone to a woman's shelter three or four different times on her own. Oh, that's bad. In addition to that, this is not corresponding with the police coming either. This is another time she just left and went to a woman, shot a police car. Exactly. So three or four times, but always returned because Jean's health was never good. And so she felt bad.


And the neighbor said, quote, She really did love Jean well.


So, yeah, she always kept coming back. And there's no I mean, and granted, domestic violence is cyclical when you have the kind of money and all that. Yes, but this probably makes that cycle much more frequent because we could be pissed and then have like some heart event and all of a sudden you're back and you're back. Back into the heel.


Yeah, exactly. It's not even that you don't run out the cycle. There's no you know, you don't even get it's not a natural thing. Wow. This is like you artificially keep going back to it. And it seems to be like this is what they do. They've been together for thirty seven years. So whatever terrible pattern, that's horrible that they need to get out of and that she needs to really run away from it, they're stuck in it.


It's better because of this. It's just yeah, it's a pattern. So yeah, several neighbors just said the same thing. They're neighborly. They kept to themselves. We don't know. They said that another neighbor said that they had heard Jean threatened to kill his wife. This was a LB's outdoors. This happened in front of neighbors that wow, not only kill his wife, but announced this is a guy losing it in the front yard. He was going to kill his wife, the family dog as well.


Oh, my. And then burn the house down and then kill himself in the front yard. Good Lord, in the blaze of the fucking house is as it was burning, sparing nobody all of our shit. And you are. And the dogs corpses. I'll be out here and blow my brains out on the front yard. That's a scary proclamation, right. Because that's not even a person that has any. This is a sick older guy who who the health care.


He's at the end of his rope.


I mean, that's that's not that's something to take seriously.


More so you got to think of to say it. You know what I'm saying? That's I mean, I wouldn't get there. And if he's abusive, that's something that you want to take seriously there. And it's wild. The one neighbor said, quote, She had tried to leave and had always come back. He was all she knew. And and she, in a way, really depended on him. No matter how bad the abuse was, his abuse had become much worse over the past couple of years and had really escalated up in nineteen ninety nine.


So that's this is it's gotten worse. And it seems like the sicker he gets and this is what other people said to the sicker he gets, the more abusive he is. Yeah. So I don't know if that what's what the psychology of that is. If he feels weak or so he feels like he needs to assert himself and dominance over this other person. More frustration. Yeah. Not fixing and taking that out on her. There is a lot of things.


Clearly though, this is a guy who well has figured out that his wife is a that avenue in a vessel to take out his physical frustrations and his aggression physically upon it. That seems to be the pattern. It's gotten worse as things have gotten worse for him. So, yeah, the other thing was this was one of the neighbors called him a man of X, of an explosive nature who was prone to publicly exhibiting rage against her.


Meyler. So that's, you know, bad review. It's a bad review. I would say as far as town reviews go, that would be a bad if you heard that got Jesus to be around that publicly exhibiting rage that sounds rough and publicly exhibiting rage. I would assume you could classify screaming in the yard that you're going to kill her the dog, burn the house down and blow your brains out. Right as it as the flames flicker, flicker skyward.


Right. I mean, that's a crazy proclamation, I would say. Yeah. That all of that explosive nature prone to publicly exhibiting rage. True, true. Check check out say on that. Oh, boy. So it's weird now October 3rd, nineteen ninety nine. Let's go specifically to that October 3rd. Nineteen ninety nine. Her sister Vellis sister Kaleen Pelletiere comes over the house, unexpectedly stops by the house, which is extremely weird. She has not they seen each other about four times in the last thirty years, literally four times in thirty years.


She just stops by the house just to say hi out of the blue doesn't unannounced. She stops by on October 3rd. Nineteen ninety nine she stops by. Jean isn't home and you know, they talk and she says, where the hell is Jean anyway? What's going on here? And Vellis says he hasn't been home in a couple of days.


Hey, I don't know. He left. He's gone. And she was. Like, well, how long has he been gone for? She's like, I don't know, he left on the 1st. So that's this is day three of him not being here. So she's like, Latza, are you concerned?


Just he just disappeared. I haven't been here but four times in 30 years. Is it weird that he's. Has it been is it normal for your husband to go missing in here? Like, I don't know. He's gone for some days. Is it weird that somebody that's been here four times in 30 years is here right now and he's not. He's weird. Is that strange? Right. Is that weird? This week I've been in this house more than he has.


Is that weird?


You know what my my gauge for weird is really it's in a bad place now. I'm not sure exactly what's weird anymore. So I'm going to need really need. Where's Margaret? Margaret, can you come over here from the neighbors? Come on, please come over here and try and tell us what's strange, because we've really lost our fucking minds. So, yeah, they're they the sisters like. Well, you're what should you look for him like?


He's like a 62 year old man with a heart condition. And I mean, you're saying he went out and now he's not here. He could be in the woods dead somewhere.


He should probably maybe look into this possibly. And fellow is like I mean, I guess like for her, she's probably like I. I hope so. I figured if I don't say anything, fingers crossed, maybe he just won't come home. I feel like is what Val is trying to portray. I mean, maybe right now it's just like a Memorial Day weekend.


And I'm hoping that Tuesday doesn't come around that I'm hoping for.


That's what it is like. It's, you know, let's extend this week, maybe a snow day. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe it'll snow if he comes home tomorrow, everything's fucked. So. Yeah, no.


Nope. So Karlene convinces Val you need to go to the police and report a missing. You can't just have a you can't you can't just be gone for weeks. So how long are you going to let this go for. Yeah, let's go to the police and she's got to be thinking how weird is my sister gotten. Yeah, I haven't seen her in years. I stopped by her husband's missing for days and she's just like, I don't know what the hell is happening.


That's why I haven't been around this much in thirty years. This is crazy. So it's a strange scenario. They show up at the police station Carlene's like, you know, she'd like to tell you something, right. You know, I don't know. It's her husband, I guess.


And initially they didn't know there were like he just disappeared. He she said he left on the first. Where do we go? I don't know. Yeah. Marty say he was going to go. Didn't say to him it was just like you just left. Yeah. And and the police know who they are. Sure they know the history and they probably assume that Velas probably happy he's gone and probably not real concerned with what he's coming home. It's one of those things.


So I feel like they're all like, you know, they almost want to go.


Let's help you. Fingers crossed. And his fingers crossed, his stays gone, I think is what the cops were thinking for. So people always describe them as very private. A lot of the neighbors, though, too, and the police even that knew them, said that they seemed to enjoy each other's company most of the time when they weren't having a knockdown, drag out fight. Yeah. When yeah.


Wenjin wasn't chasing her around and or whatever else. They enjoyed a lot of outdoor activities together. They did. They hunted and fished together and did like outdoor shit together, very cool out in the woods and stuff. So they seemed to get along doing that, but then they'd come home and then the fucking state police would show up an hour later. So it's a weird thing. The one neighbor also at this point, because the cops, when they're looking for him, they go around, they ask neighbors, you seen this guy at all?


And they described him another neighbor to the police as a reclusive and domineering man. Oh, Jean. So a again, bad reviews.


Jean's not getting a lot of good reviews. He's not from friends, police, neighbors and wives and in-laws. He is a rotten tomato. He doesn't he doesn't seem wonderful. Yeah, he's definitely not in the not the freshest. Not right now. He's said about eight percent say he's doing bad. So they have a their house is kind of a kind of a shitty little house.


It's not a great house. But I mean, like we said, most of the houses here are worth under one hundred grand now. Yeah. So there are no extravagant mansions in Hartland. It's just not the way it works. So they go in, they're looking into his disappearance. They got they they put police tape around the house and everything because they're like, we got to check. What if he left a clue? Who knows? He just seems to have disappeared into thin air.


He's it's about five o'clock on a Sunday is when they report him missing and it starts from there. So it's a Sunday evening. So they can't really you have limited time to start that night. Yeah. According to Veli, he was last seen Friday afternoon and a neighbor saw him returning from hunting Friday afternoon, like walking back. And that's when they said they saw him last. Bella said she saw him when he left that morning. That's the last time she saw him.


The neighbor said they saw him returning from hunting, but not at his house, but just near there, obviously on his way back from the hunting grounds. Right. Whatever the hell those are. So. Anyway, that's that's what's going on. He's reported missing, they're looking for him, by the way, the hits on Athene's Road and route's forty three and one fifty one watch. I don't know where the hell that is, but if you're a local main person and you want to know the exact area, this is a very bizarre description.


That's where it is. Yeah. Home on on the Athens road routes. Forty three and one fifty one. Apparently that's like where the neighborhood is near that crossroads.


So yeah, they come out, they look for him for a while, then they start coming out. They don't know what to do. So they, they bring out the mobile crime scene lab. Wow.


Look around, try to see if there's a trace of him anywhere like I feel like to they're bored and they're like we finally get to use this mobile. What does this thing hold on mobile crime. Take it out. Who's got anybody by a box cutter? We got to take it out. It's wrapped in plastic still. We open it. They haven't even opened it. Oh, shit. These instructions are.


And what is this Swedish or some shit that came with a microscope for Christ. That's cool. Let me see that. That's pretty neat. Oh, let me look at this over here. I'm going to take a slide in the bathroom and fill that up. Is this German.


What the hell. Hell God damn I brothers, ages, microscopes is probably German I guess.


I don't know anybody. Speak German, see if I can see my own swimmers.


Maybe I can look at something gross.


So they they observed that there was a small pickup truck from that was still at the house there, which was kind of their car that they used.


So he didn't take the car. That's something to look at. They yeah, they looked all around. They said that, quote, We haven't located him. We're trying to get as many clues as possible to determine where he might be. As time goes by. We're growing more and more concerned about as well, for sure. Yeah, it's a guy with a heart condition, an older guy in the woods for days. Oh, you know, that's what they think at this point.


So who knows?


So they said they they couldn't be sure of a state of mind. They didn't know if, you know, he's been a little flighty and all these he snap sometimes goes off the deep end.


They don't know what he's about. Who knows what he's doing out there. So they said they had a helicopter in the air searching for him. And all this this is like immediately they start this because he's been gone for days. So, I mean, they mobilized like that. And like I said, they were something to do.


Let's do it to use this finally. Yeah, we've got it all. We've been waiting to search for somebody for so long. So what we have dogs and everything. Really, they're trained. They're really just chomping at the bit. Look at them. Look at this poor puppy. He's got nothing to sniff. We got a mobile crime scene lab. It's cool.


Put it on the back of that skyhorse. I took it all dog. Hook it up to the horse here.


But everybody secured the skis on that horse.


A goddamn horse. Better off skis on it when I come back here, come off and that lab's going to go against a goddamn tree.


Jesus Christ Almighty. So yeah, am so they said they're they're not ruling out a ground search tool, but they're going to start with the air and see if they can spot them somewhere. They they said it's not unusual to call in the mobile crime scene lab for a missing person just to get because they never know if, let's say they were, you know, kidnapped and killed or something. They want to know that ahead of time before it might as well see if you can find a blood trail or something out by their house.


That's that way you would have a clue ahead of time. They said, quote, Each case is different. We've called the crime lab into other similar situations. So, yeah, they talk to Margaret Dunn a little more. She tells them more about them keeping to themselves. They just kept to themselves. That's it. They're very mainly. They're very mainly. That's how it works here. They took trips away from home a lot.


They they found out the Gorgons. So they they went places mainly to hunt and fish and other places. So they said, OK, maybe that's where maybe Gene went to one of the places they go and hunt and fish. Yeah, who knows. But he didn't take his truck and he just disappeared without telling anybody, didn't take a suitcase or anything. That's odd. He's often seen from what they find because they're trying to figure out trying to piece together jeans day.


Right. It seems to be hunts and fishes talks to the neighbors. Otherwise he's seen walking along the Athens road carrying a long stick.


That's just a thing. That's what he does to all the neighbors. You just see him walking, carrying a long stick. I found a stick. I'm going to go for a walk. I'm a go for walk now. I can't go for a walk to find us. You're not going to believe I found the nicest walk in sties. Beauty to take me a walk, walk it with it. So very.


That's what he does not bird. Strange, strange, strange dude. Here, take a walk. So they said quote, This is what the neighbor said. Quote, This is kind of troublesome, worrisome. As time goes by, you wonder what's going on here. Yeah, who knows. So now it turns into a massive search. And this is all while they're at the police station.


You know, we're talking this is. Kaline and Valla What's-Her-Name, Carlene's lanterne, the sister Pelletiere is the last name I remember the goddamn last name, which is way more complicated.


It's a different.


So yeah, he's missing. They search they searched all around the lake that's near there and they search pretty much everywhere. One of the police officer said he left home. He left his home under suspicious circumstances. We believe he may have met his demise.


Oh, so now they're saying that as time goes by, they're having a little bit of a different view on the whole thing, they said, but we still hope to find him alive. OK, well, good luck with that.


Yeah, they said, quote, We're not talking about anything. Once we find him, then we'll know more, obviously. Thanks. Thanks, police officer. We appreciate that.


Wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. So pellets theory, while they're in the police station, she talks Tavella a little bit more and Velas starts to starts to tell her some more about maybe she might know where Jane went.


Yeah. And as she's doing this, she's going, OK, you got to tell the cops why you're here, what's going on. So Vela ends up going, all right, here we go. Here's what happened. First she goes. She didn't want to tell the cops, really. She goes, well, you just tell him. So, Pelletiere here, the sister Pelletiere, she has to go to the cops. Go. All right. My sister has to tell you something.


Here's what she's going to tell you, basically. And she has to spill the beans of the whole thing.


She tells the cops, quote, She carried her husband's body out of their house, placed the body in their pickup truck and drove the body away and deposited it. Yeah, that's what she told them. OK, it's way more than that. We'll just say that. But that's to gave them the long and short of the whole thing.


Oh, my. So they were like, oh, OK. Is this really what happened?


And so they asked, well is this what happened? And she all she would say was quote, It's true that she wouldn't give any other details.


She was kind of shy about something just. Yeah. So they find out a little bit more. We'll find out a little bit more here in a second. But she, based on what they found, found out from her the fourth the next day. She's involuntarily committed to a to a hospital for some hattrick, some testing things because she does not sound right. We'll put it that way. She's got a couple of issues.


And talking to her, it seems like they they could tell there's something wrong with her. We'll find out as time goes on. She's a little off. There's something something a little bit off there. And like we said, she had a crazy hard life. So who knows what her life is like. And I don't feel like she's had a lot of therapy living in the woods with this asshole. You know what I mean? I don't feel like she's overcome whatever she had.


So she's committed for her own safety to the Agusta Mental Health Institute after her sister came in there. Let's go back to October 1st to find out what happened here. All right, Jean, I'm sorry.


Vela had been awake and she didn't eat very much on the 1st of October. Nervous. She's got a nervous stomach, and it's because her husband's been kind of crazy the last couple of days.


She had been on also prescription sleeping pills normally and an anti depressant, both of which made her tired. The sleeping pills, obviously, the antidepressant made her tired as well. But she stopped taking them the last few days. You can't just stop anti depressants, cold turkey. First of all, that is and not good.


And if you're going to, you better know that you're about to have some shit. You better do it with a doctor. You better have a doctor do that shit with you and tell you what to expect, because to go through some stuff you're about, oh, it's not recommended that you do this shit at all.


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And and also her prescription sleeping pills as she stops them both right away, doesn't want to take them.


She's affecting not only her nights, but not only her days, but her nights like this. Yeah, this is pretty bad. This is bad stuff.


So she's been up she's been up for a while now for days, basically really open up because, quote, she felt as if he would kill her if she fell asleep is what she said. She thought Jean would kill her if she fell asleep. And she she may have good reason for that as well as we go into this. So she's up for days scared of Jean, feeling everything and feeling everything. And yeah. So on the morning of the first, apparently they got in an argument and Jean got violent with her that morning.


He apparently lifted her up into the air. Oh. So hard that she hit her head on the bottom of the of a cupboard. Oh that was there.


So he picked her up and racked her head on a cupboard and hurt her pretty bad, I guess.


And so she was obviously upset. Clearly he abused her. Then a little while later after he did that, he stomped around angrily, apparently, and was still pissed at her. And then he told her, forced her, made her get into the truck at this point and drove her to a remote area in Mayfield Township, which is about 20 miles away, logging roads like that.


It's the it's the woods. It's the middle of nowhere.


So I drove her out there to the woods and stopped and basically said that he took her there with two guns, two loaded guns is that he had in his possession and he's in the truck. And he ordered her out of the truck. He told her to get out of the truck. Yeah. At that point, with two loaded guns in the woods while she was he was mad at her and had violently assaulted her that morning. And she wasn't like, hey, we're going hunting.


This is going to be fun. He was like, get the truck. And then he's taking guns and he's like, get out of the truck. So this sounds weird. She felt that if she got out of the truck, he was going to shoot her. So he she refused to get out of the truck. She said, if you're going to shoot me, you have to do it in your truck. So do that. Yeah. That's not going to shoot me.


Your truck, are you going? Yeah. I mean, it's less likely, I suppose. So he ends up as she just straight refuses to get out of the truck and he ends up saying, fuck it and turning around and going home. She's not worth cleaning the carpet. I guess not. So yeah, he she refused. So time goes by. The rest of that day is very, very, very uncomfortable. I'm sure you might imagine she is wide awake.


She will not go to sleep, Jean, though he falls asleep as time goes by. That night he falls asleep and Vélez says, OK, now is my chance. While he's asleep, she grabs a twenty two caliber pistol that she has and shoots him in the left here. OK, the first shot does not kill him or incapacitate him doesn't penetrate the brain obviously.


So first shot right into his ear bounces around. All it does is make him sit up and reach for a loaded thirty eight that he has next to the bed, which you should use that you wanted to do this much easier on correctly. He reaches for a thirty eight, so before he can reach the thirty eight she says he shoots her. She says that she shoots him twice more in the ear on the right side of his head, around his ear right there.


That's what she was aiming for, his ear and he died from that. So three shots to the head him. Good Lord. So she killed him. He's dead. He's in bed and he's dead. Dead in bed with obviously, this is a problem now nationally, mainly a big problem. She doesn't know what to do here. She. Thinks about it for a minute because, holy shit, I mean, thirty seven years and, you know, it's been a lot of tough times the last few years and all this and Harry is bleeding out in the back like, oh, fuck, this is the end of it.


So she says, well, what are you going to do? She drags into the truck and drags him to the truck and deposits him about 20 miles away. Where? Mayfield Township. Oh, right.


You're going to get her. He took her. You might think she's a small woman, small enough to be lifted up violently by a 62 year old man with a heart condition small enough to be lifted up violently to have her head wrapped in a cupboard. How does she move? How is she going to move a guy that much bigger than her who's big enough to shut her up like that and literally dead weight?


Well, the thing is about dead weight.


If you're going to carry a person, it's very, very heavy. The way to make them a lot lighter is to now chop them into many pieces and make light work. And it's a lot easier if you've been a butcher's assistant for a long while. Oh, Jesus. And you know exactly how to butcher, say, a large mammal. Holy shit. So she took my part.


She takes him apart. She puts takes him apart, cuts him into 17 pieces. My God. This is like the mob would love to hire her.


She could have worked for the Gambino family in the 70s. Hands up. I mean, she arms, biceps, legs, feet. She took it off. Guys like this one little piggy to little pig like she was going to sell them for parts. Like you would break an animal down, 17 of them.


Wherever there's joints she broke down, wherever there's big joints is where she chopped it and did it had everything. I mean, she kind of in the 17 fucking pieces. And that way they were movable pieces for her so she can move them.


She did this. She cut them up. I mean, the butcher thing is going to be a it's a squishy butchered him just like he was. Wow. Just like she had an animal that needed to be parted out just where the joints. Chop, chop, chop. So you're whistlin while she does it. Yeah. Just yeah. I could picture like her had her iPhone. Yeah. Little air pods and she got the of Yeah. She's dancin.


I picture like a drop dead gorgeous. She's practicing her tappers, she's doing the make up on the wall.


But that person it's but yeah. This is what she does.


Wow. That's a that's that's heavy. Yeah. She just shot her husband and then dragged him out and butchered him into seventeen.


That's my God this is fucking wild man. So she does that, she stuffs him into military duffel bags that they had and then put them in the truck, drives him into the woods. And then what she does here is really the remarkable part, if you can.


I mean, go on. There's been quite a few crazy things so far that's been happening right in front of so far this year. It kind of takes the cake.


She hides him really well once she hides him. First of all, it's seventeen pieces. Yeah. She goes out there and hand digs seventeen holes. OK, what hand digs with her fucking hands.


Like clawing at the ground, looking at the ground digs holes, puts the parts in there because at 17 different parts of scatters them all around and really covers them. Well yeah. Covers them back up. Puts leaves like you. You can't fucking tell that there's anything there. It's not a big giant disturbed hole she does. There's little holes left. You can't even tell you find just like a rotten stump and throw in it. Not even I mean she'd hand buried seventeen different parts.


Wow. All over the woods which is a pretty large area. It's not like not like. All right. Next to each other. She took them, you know, through twenty paces here in between fucking hands. Wow. It's crazy. Yeah. It'll be the police would later call it being brutally hacked apart which I mean you know tomato. Tomato I guess. So he was placed in these holes, scattered all over the woods and the cops searched for six days.


They can't find him out there even though she told them where they where he was. Yeah, that's how that's how well she had him and believe she it's wild.


So first they said that his head and torso were found first, I guess, and then eventually 15 of 17 of the parts were located. The only things that weren't located were her thought. His thighs have never been found. Both of them both the thighs of somewhere she does a good job. Hide and thighs. Yeah, some good. I hide her somewhere in the woods of Mayfield Township.


There is definitely two buried guys out there somewhere in these woods. Absolutely. To Barry dies of one hundred percent certainty that that's a. Act, so they also so they go through the house, they found nearly a dozen firearms from the house, they were hunters, they lived in a rural area here.


And but the twenty two, she used to kill him and the butchering utensil she used never were found. They never she ditched them and never said where they were there with the thighs. She wouldn't tell them where they were. She wouldn't tell them where all that stuff was. So it's yeah. The police said that a quote, substantial effort had been taken by Mrs. Gogin to clean up the mess that the of this event created in the family home, as you could imagine.


First of all, he shot a guy in the head three times in your bedroom. Yeah, that's a lot of blood. And he's bleeding out.


That's a shitload of blood coming out. So there's that to clean up. And then you butchered a human being in the 17 pieces. That's messy, even more blunt. That's a lot of this is, of all, a very messy thing. The blood keeps getting to be more. Yeah. Which I assume they probably had an area where they would butcher out animals. I bet they were avid hunter. So mainly she probably mainly avid hunters. You never know.


So yeah. Two days later here, like we said, it's crazy that this is the only time the sister's only seen her four times in thirty years. Probably seen her in ten years. She stops by unannounced. Where's your husband. Oh my.


Out of the blue. Oh my God. You're a fresh murderer. Wow. What are the odds and what if the sister didn't stop by? She would have never reported it. Who knows how long would it take? I mean, for his family to eventually go? I haven't heard from Jean in a long time. Like it's Christmas. Still haven't heard from Jean. Isn't that weird? I mean, when would they eventually. Who knows. So wow.


At the station once they're there. She says that Mrs. Pelletier, the woods, the sister says, yeah, sister's got something to tell you. He's in the woods. They listen at that point, they Mirandize. You know, she's a suspect for something. So they Mirandized. Valla and Vélez says that she didn't want to answer any questions. And the police said, well, I mean, if we're going to look for and we kind of have to know that he's dead and I kind of have to hear that from you when that's when she said it's true.


So then they got requested assistance from the main police. That's when the whole thing happened. And the sister wrote out a big handwritten affidavit telling exactly what Vela had told her. She didn't tell him about the butchering and all that. This is the sister had to like as she spoke through her sister, basically out of her pull it out of her. Yeah.


So by the 10:00 a.m. on the fourth, they here's a little legal thing that happened 10 a.m. on the fourth, they were searching the Gog and property. Detective Mitchell met with a Sergeant Drake at the Goken property. He handed over all the paperwork and Detective Mitchell realized that he didn't have a warrant, which is a problem, obviously, if you're going to search something.


He was convinced that he did receive a signed warrant from from the from whoever.


But he said that I know I have it. So he started searching for it. On October 5th, he had Detective Mitchell obtained information from one of the searching officers that caused him to believe that Mrs. Goken used black plastic garbage bags to put him in before she put him in. The military bags obviously don't want to leak all over everything.


So based upon that, he prepared a set of documents to get a second search warrant. So Detective Mitchell went with two, I think, the attorney general's office on October 5th. Ninety nine with a second set of documents where he did an affidavit and all that sort of shit and got another. I've got another warrant. Now, the attorney at that point said that, yeah, he had probable cause and all this sort of shit with the guy. The detective mentioned the missing warrant and the attorney said, I never signed the warrant for that.


So they've been searching the house for a day and a half with no warrant. They thought they had a warrant, but they just lost the paper warrant. But but it was, you know, legally, whatever turns out, they never got a warrant. So they've been searching the house illegally for a day and a half, basically with no warrant.


So at some point, the detective finally determined that he never received a warrant and was initiated the ever. So on October 7th, he got he resubmitted documents that he prepared on the third for the original warrant and then finally got another warrant. And then they they finished searching the house and they got a bunch of shit. But that was the thing as they searched it, they were there for a couple of days searching everything with no warrant.


Oh, my God. Yeah. Which is obviously a problem that. No, that's an issue.


You've got to get your to cross the t's, dot your eyes, do your shit. So October six, nineteen ninety nine, three days into it, they, they amend their investigation to say that he's not a missing person anymore, that they say he has met his demise as a matter that's how they quoted in the paper met his demise. So they. And now it comes out that there was domestic violence before the last time the sheriff's department was there was in June, so it hasn't been that long.


There's been a lot they did all the helicopter search. They're still searching for his body parts. They can't find him originally. They just found the head in the torso at first and went from there.


So they end up on October 8th is when they find him everywhere, like we said, remote area in Mayfield Township, more than 20 miles from the home. And the way they find him is Velho tells them where they where he is. They still can't find him. They have they go out there. She hit them very, very well. And it's the woods. So it's not like it's, you know, landmarks everywhere and things to know it's right here.


So they can't find him. They have to bring in the dogs so they know the area. So they have to bring in dogs. The guy who ran the cadaver dog, the officer who had the cadaver dog in this particular case, wrote a book about basically being a canine officer in the woods in Maine. And he talked about this case a lot. So I kind of got a I got a piece of that from him, from how he found it, and then kind of how they do that, too, because I think that's pretty cool.


So he said this guy says, I've been dealing with people who hide stuff my whole career, no shit. And I've always been able to pick it out. But even but even to me, this scene was just amazing. I was out there with the state police. Think about that first finding way to describe it.


Even to me, like all I do is find shit. I literally have the dog that sees that gets shit that you can't see. That's my job. My job. This is amazing.


This one particularly interesting. Amazing, amazing in print, he said, I was out there with the state police searching the dogwood hit. That was Reba. She was just so good, so reliable that I tell the detective who was with me, take a picture, and then he would say, there's nothing there. And we take a stick and poke around and there it would be. So the only way they could find it was the dog. He said, quote, I think we found everything with the hands that one night.


The first night, first night. They didn't find the hands. The first night they said that we found 13 parts. And then the next day they found they found the hands and then they never found the thighs. Unbelievable. So that's how it worked here. He said it was it was getting dark. It was September, a clear, clear night with a crisp fall air. And I was in the woods pulling out all these body parts. And I vividly remember the things that stick in your mind.


You know, at one point I turned around and the medical examiner was walking out of the woods with this human part in his hands. So he says it's a thigh, but it's not a thigh because they never found the thighs.


That's right. So it was probably a shin or something. Yeah, we don't know. He said, quote, So I got done there. And that night my wife and I went to a dinner party. We were having roast pork with a whole group of people.


And I was really hungry, but I couldn't eat that roast because chopped off it looked exactly like the part I had just seen and ruined my dinner.


Fucking ruined. He said I was sitting there thinking I could real I really couldn't discuss what I had just gone through with all these people at a dinner party and saying, I'll have a little more salad after that, which yeah, my my wife was giving me that.


What's wrong with you? You love this stuff. Look, and I was thinking that tonight I can't do it.


But have you ever seen you ever seen a dead foot, ever seen a really well butchered human body? It's really bad. It's not cool. You know, the chicken looks like when he got it looks just like that pig right there. Well, yeah, pork is the most that's.


Yeah, that's what they do. So she said, you know, he said, not tonight. I can't do it here. I was at this party acting normal until hours before I'd been picking body parts out of the woods. One thing we learned from working homicides where the perpetrators had hidden bodies in the woods, that when people hide bodies, when people hit bodies or something they'd stolen, they'd hide things where they could monitor them. Yeah, we always see this often.


They did it subconsciously. And that's what I think it is. Do I don't even think they're realizing they're doing it right. They just had this need to hide them in ways that they could find the spot again to ensure that it hadn't been disturbed. Yeah, part of that is due to the fact that a lot of these people who kill and hide bodies are control freaks of one sort or another. But because that's the personality trait that got them to this point where they were thinking, OK, this person isn't controllable anymore.


So now my only option is to destroy them. Well put. And once they have a body in their hands, they have to do something with it. Obviously, those types of people have to be the have to have that element of control throughout the process. Consciously, they might not even know they're doing it. So when we go out on a search looking for looking for where someone has hidden the body, we put ourselves into their mindset to help us find it.


Part of our preparation for the search will be understanding the perpetrator and the circumstances under which the body was hidden. OK, which makes sense. You want to know a little bit about it? He's I was reading a little bit about this and it's fucking interesting as shit here. He says they have to know. They ask a shitload of questions. They just go out sniffin with the dog. Yeah. He said they act like, you know, people think like you just hear there's something missing and he just run after them with dogs.


He says, quote, They act like they've seen too many of those old prison escape movies where the farmer comes out with bang bloodhounds to track the convicts. Right. You're up there under one dog's face. If you go there, they go wild animals into the woods. He said they thought we were going to come in and walk the dogs and go home. In reality, our process is far more complex and scientific, he said. If we're coming to help law enforcement find a body somewhere in the woods, we'd arrive with our computers and our mapping programs and our expertise and we'd start learning about their suspect.


Right. Which is interesting because I don't think people realize that. They just think the guy hops out of the car and the dog starts sniffing. Right. That's it. And he said we'd say, OK, we need to know what that suspect does. We need to know where his world is. Is he a hunter, a fisherman? What type of outdoor activities does he do? How comfortable is he in the woods? That'll tell you how far in they might go.


Stop talking. Where's your goddamn dog? That's exactly in there. Yeah. Just have the dog sniff and he's like, no, no. How familiar is they? What are they with the area? We'd ask what they learn from interviews so we could build a timeline and figure out how much time he had to dispose of the body. Whether or not it happened that day or night. It would matter, for example, if they could tie their suspect to a shovel.


So we might be looking at a buried body in a deeper hole rather than a hand dug hole or whether the incident happened in the winter. So the body might be frozen and not giving off a scent or might be not buried that deep because the ground's frozen. Once we got them past the fundamental public safety instinct to share as little as possible and they started to see how this worked, they buy into it. So, yeah, this is it's an interesting process.


I didn't really realize how they do that either. I know they get upset and they go. But, yeah, they know they show up with computers and start doing mapping. And it's rare that they show that part on TV because that's the boring story. Yeah, that's exciting. When I figure out the guy's not comfortable in the woods and it's winter and it's dark, he's probably not going to bury it too far in. Yeah, it's going to be pretty close to an entrance as fuck.


But watching Samson Bellow and run through the woods, that's yeah. That's not something he'll get a voice. So for a week they they they investigated the home and surrounding area to confirm the death and the manager and make sure that she was telling the truth. Finally, a medical examiner's report on Monday, October 11th, confirmed Jean died of multiple gunshot wounds to the head. And yeah, it was funny in the press, though. There was these rumors that Jean was dismembered because a small town gets around.


So they kept asking the police and the police wouldn't say they kept like they didn't want to inflame it. They said, quote, In the interest of the fairness of a trial, investigative information like that will not come out until until the trial. The whole idea is to give her give it go go again through this as fairly as possible. They would not answer is, did she chop them up or not? Like everyone in this town was like, oh, is she fucking finally chopped them up?


They were that couple had foul genes for old Bella. Finally had enough of gene like it's like funny farm. Yeah. All Claude musclemen. He finally pushed it too far. She buried him in the right in the vegetable garden there. He had a donkey. Keep an eye out for that. Keep an eye out for that. Never did turn up. So November 9th. Nineteen ninety nine. There's basically they're saying is there going to be a mental exam or not.


This is a month later. She's been in for a month in this facility and it says here there's nothing in the law to compel Valla to talk to the state at this time. She's a suspect. She can remain silent. She doesn't have to talk to anybody to do anything. No. According to her attorney, especially who talks about this, her attorney says that they're they will argue against a request from the state attorney general's office, seeking a court order for a mental examination by the state's forensic service court ordered mental exam before the woman is indicted and arraigned in connection with the death of her husband would violate her Fifth Amendment rights against self incrimination.


You get to tell us everything he did is unconstitutional. Yeah. So the judge didn't rule on the request, but he's going to rule on it soon here. The attorney keeps saying, no, this is bullshit. I'm not going to do it. I won't let her do it. Basically, they said everything could take all this time. And that's also not fair to her to make her go through a long process. They said that that's, by the way, there in the paper.


They kept talking about how she didn't even tell him it was the sister.


They made a really big deal out of like the sister being ratting on her. An interpreter. Yeah, but the lawyer for Vellis says, quote, My client has invoked the right to remain silent. That's only Trump when she puts her mental state on as an issue before the court. She has the right to do that, not you, was what it's saying. You can say competency, but that's there's a different thing here. That's a quick thing.


You're talking about a full mental examination. They said, quote, I know the state is frustrated because she invoked her right to remain silent. That doesn't happen in Maine. And defend a defendant usually gives a statement, what is going on with Maine? We don't use our rights in Maine. Yeah, up here in Maine, we don't use our rights. You know, we just have some very mainly of it that very mainly just have some Pepperidge Farm and tell them what happened.


What's wrong with you? Sit out on the porch, have some Pepperidge Farm and tell them and get you some lobster roll and some country time lemonade and curl up with a nice Stephen King and start talking how we go. Tell them what happened. As if flannel. Let's go. It's getting chilly out. It's getting toward the end of July. It's getting chilly. It's 2:00 p.m. It's getting cold now. A little chilly outside. All right, then.


Nice coming on.


So the during the hearing here, the state attorney general said he wanted to the examination to preserve evidence based on the belief that Eveillard will use her mental state at the time of her husband's death as a basis for her defense. And the defense says, we haven't decided that yet and we don't have to. So fuck you. Basically, the judge questioned if the request was anticipatory here and they said there's almost certainly going to be a diminished capacity of valid Gorgons mental state used in the defense of this case.


This is the prosecutor. A defendant's state of mind can change the court order. The court can order the exam and impounded until the plea is entered like so we can't look at it. Order of the exam, the doctors hear it and then whatever until everything comes out. Her mental state is not an issue until such time as we place it before the court is what her lawyer. They said, so there's nothing there. So the defense says, quote, I've agreed to the psychiatric evaluation to determine her competence to stand trial.


The state is obligated to examine, not to prosecute someone who is not competent to understand the court's process.


So they're talking about competency a lot for a minute here because she's in the hospital for almost two months. We'll talk about psychiatric defense could be used if she suffered from an abnormal condition of the mind or was not criminally responsible. If it was decided to use a psychiatric defense, a competency hearing could then be scheduled. Her lawyer said, quote, I think she's competent. She's certainly doing better than when I first saw her. I currently think she is competent to assist in her own defense.


That's all they're talking about. Then they ask about the sister, you know, is the sister in trouble for it? And they're like, no, the sister did the right thing. Sister is a hero. Yeah.


She said, quote, Kaleen was in a difficult situation. She knew her sister had done something illegal. These have been really difficult weeks for the Pelletiere and Goken families. This case will eventually deal with the most private aspects of their life, obviously here. So November 19th, nineteen ninety nine, there's a bail hearing.


You figure bail. She's still locked out, by the way. She's still not even out of the out of the mental hospital yet. So you figure seventeen pieces.


The problem of getting bail for that shit at least superhigh something.


Right. So they talk about during the bail hearing, they talk a lot about the fact that there was a lot of domestic abuse at the house and that she's not some crazy, you know, some bloodthirsty monster who just can't wait to butcher somebody. This is a different thing. She said that. But then the prosecution said that she didn't even turn herself in. She had to be coerced into. Excellent point. One of the police. So it's not like she's that reliable, she said.


But for Carleen, Pelletiere, Jean Gogin might have just been another horrible statistic of a missing person that never came home. The judge is going to decide as we'll talk about that they're going to give her bail. Now, the any decision like that, the prosecutor said was wrong and misguided. He said, quote, Jean victim Jean Gogin is the victim, not Veliko. Again, he attempted to paint a picture of an unstable woman, a threat to herself and others, and a likely candidate to flee from justice if given bail.


She's not got where is she going to go?


The person she wants to hurt is done well. Plus, she's an older lady. Fifty five years old. She's an older lady who's lived in the same place with the same guy for almost 40 years, where it's not like she's got a vast network of places she can go. Yeah, well, she's got the Malibu beach house. She could end up there. The hunting lodge in Wyoming is a place you never know. She could end up over there that the Vegas loft.


There's that. And then also the Puerto Vallarta condo. I mean, she could end up down there. You never know. Who knows with Fowler. She's got a lot of options. So, yeah, he pointed out that that Jean Gogin was never convicted of. This is the balls on this guy, though. The prosecutor said Jim Goggin was never convicted of an offense involving his wife. Oh, the cops have been there all the time, but never convicted of a crime.


Huh? OK, not going to be settled on is kind of made him sound like a dick in court. I bet even in the late 90s and early on, his wife will know about that. All right. Yeah, right. So she said, quote, This is comes from the court. If the court finds that she is entitled to bail, it could it could be extinguished by evidence from the state that she is a risk of danger to others or is a risk of not appearing in court.


She's not just a dangerous person, she says this is a woman. Fifty five years old, married to the same man for thirty seven years. She's lived in this area most of her life. She has a large and supportive family, many of whom who were there at her initial court appearance to support her and help her in any way she can. So they sat in the state's own testimony. They reported a history of domestic abuse in this marriage.


Jean Gogin was described as someone with an explosive personality, one where he would fly into a rage. These are, in quotes talking about Valla to the neighbors. He'd just be like that fucking bitch, my wife. They'd be like, whoa, he's that guy.


He's already mad just by asking about her.


Every neighborhood has that guy where every time he brings up his wife, he's like my fucking, you know, like Jesus, could God, you get a divorce, miserable asshole.


Don't worry about him, because once he's divorced, he's going to still talk about it more. More then.


But at least you know what is wrong with you. I'm happy. I'm free from that bitch. Yeah, free from that. God damn that. You like that cab driver, the uber driver I had in Denver who was like that fucking bitch?


That that's them. I love that. That's the guy you like Denver. Denver's nice people are nice people. Very nice. Very nice people. Everyone here. Very nice. Except for my ex-wife. She is fucking bitch.


What's. At 5:00 a.m., I'm like, all right, I'm up, I'm awake now, yeah, I'm perked up and buckle up for the next 20 minutes is all about this.


That was amazing. Every time I cause you pick my kid up, I call her when it snows. Maybe she crashed on the way that every time she make it, she always make it. She don't cry every time I wish she would die.


And I'm like, this guy is crazy as some. If it was like a cab I could have got his name just in case something happened. But I don't know who he was and who knows what it was on the guy that gave the wrong name to whoever. Who knows I was on the lam. Whoa, this guy is out there, he says they say all the evidence that they have comes from her. If she and her sister hadn't reported him missing, they would have nothing.


It does not this doesn't indicate she's a danger to the community. Makes sense. Said we're asking for bail to be set. Please get some bail here.


She's still in the hospital anyway. So the bail would be for once, she's determined to be safe, whatever. So, yeah, they said that she's thirty seven year marriage. She's endured a lot of abuse. She said this is the lawyer quote, If we had wanted to play games with the state, we would have never told them where to find Jean Gorgons body.


They were never fucking found it. They couldn't even they barely found it when she told them work dogs with dogs. Yeah. So if she just said, I don't know, twenty miles away in a woods off a logging road, they have never found him in a million years. No body, no crime as we've.


Right. Or she says, I don't know what happened to him. I don't know the it ever known. That's it.


We're never goddamn known. She said I had to wait for Velas informed consent to tell them she wanted to tell me. But given her initial state of mind, I had to wait before I could tell my investigator to take the police to the site. So the lawyer even said the only reason there was a delay is because of me. I told her not to. I didn't say shit about it until I knew more. So he's don't blame her for that is what the lawyer is saying.


So in the ruling, the the judge said that the state's evidence against Gogin standing alone would represent a clear and convincing presentation that Gogin presently poses a risk of danger to the community simply due to the nature of the crime. It's a matter of commission her gruesome effects to avoid its detection and her psychiatric condition. However, the entire weight of the evidence suggests that the events of this crime are uniquely and closely related to Mrs Gorgons chronic, dysfunctional relationship with the victim, her husband, and that no other person exists in the community who would be the object of any other untoward or aberrational act by her bail granted.


In other words, he's the only one that she's going to kill. Yeah, he's gone. I really don't think she's going to kill anyone else unless they abuse her for 30 years. Her list is empty. Her list is empty. So he does he says that basically it's a surety bond of one hundred ninety thousand dollars, that he allows the brother's property to be put up in the place of exile. And her brother's property is a piece. And the judge allows her to put her property up, which is that's where the state's like ba ba ba ba ba ba ba.


That's who knows if she's going to end up with that, because that's half Jean's. Right. So that could be contested. She can't use that as money.


And the judge says they're fucking sure she can. Why not. It's fine.


It just guarantees that she'll show up. It's like Jesus, she'll be allowed to live with her brother. For now. She can't live at the crime scene. Right. Right. The the the prosecutor gets all mad about this, calls it an execution style killing and said that was Devel was not acting in fear of her own life. The prosecutor said the bail should have been five hundred thousand dollars. This is ridiculous that basically the judge it's almost house arrest is what she's on the list includes.


A the ruling includes a list of twenty four people, mostly relatives of Jean Gogin, whom Vella is not allowed to have contact with legally while she's out here. List includes Jean's children, Jean and Vela's daughter, her own daughter and and her her grandchildren as well. Vella's grandchildren not allowed to talk to any of them, but at least she's out of jail. But she's not out yet because she's still in the mental hospital. Yeah, that's how this works.


She has bail, but she's still there. They said basically the family members offered to provide round the clock surveillance. They said they would provide transportation to and from psychiatric and medical appointments and they would ensure that she takes all medicine prescribed. Let her out. We'll take care of her. So they said that the prosecutor said that amount of bail is woefully inadequate. Much. I mean, yeah, he said it's that he he was saying that Jean had called the cops on her, too.


So, you know, I mean, maybe she was abusing him. Maybe maybe this was just the end of a long road of abuse on her part and she finally decided to kill him. People are like, yeah, probably not. We never heard her threatening to kill her, him, the family dog burn the house down and blow our brains out in the yard, no one's ever heard that and dance in the flames. Very few neighbors have heard that while blowing his fucking brains out.


Not happening here. So she ends up they allow her family to get some of her belongings out of the house. So the prosecutor also says that it's unprecedented to allow Vela to use her own property to post bail when there's no assurance she'd inherit the Jean's property of the joint ownership. He also objected to her placement and monitoring in the home of a convicted felon who's her brother. Her brother is a convicted felon. Now, keep in mind, this is nineteen ninety nine.


They wouldn't elaborate on the the whatever his crime was, the brother. That's because they said the they brought that objection up and the judge said, well, when did this when was this felony take place? The prosecutor said, oh I don't know, we don't have that information. The defense did, though, the 1950s when the guy got in trouble 40 years ago. He's a felon, this guy. It's been 40 years. Calm down. Chill is the 50s.


It's nineteen ninety nine here. Fucking greaser hairdo in a leather jacket when he got in trouble for, you know what I mean. Yeah, he looked like John Travolta in the 70s and 80s, the 50s. There was only like three felonies. There's like three laws I'm sure.


Yeah. You had to like kill a woman. Right. I mean if it was for a reason in the fifties, it was fine. He'd get away with it. It was like it was legal to have sex with children back then.


As long as you're married afterwards got better, you better marry that girl, make an honest tenth grader out of her. You better make an honest sophomore out of my daughter. It's like murder and then like a grand theft.


That was really it stole my shit.


So, yeah, they said she wow. She ends up getting out of the mental institution here and everything like that. The judge ruled that she must be looked after by her friends and family and all this type of shit. Basically, there's a list of nine people, some of which have to be with her at all times, including her relatives, friends, psychiatric caseworker, all these people. The judge said, everybody, you're all responsible for keeping an eye on her for out of trouble.


They're going to go with the battered woman defense here, the battered wife defense. And they're wondering at the time if there's any precedence in Maine for this working, actually, because it goes better in some states and others based on the specific laws, their strategy, the defense was to focus on the long term domestic abuse.


And they said that the first time it was actually used successfully in Maine was in nineteen ninety one when the jury acquitted a restaurant owner, a woman named Jacqueline Bevan's, in the murder of her husband, whose name was Jack Bevan's, by the way, Jacqueline and Jack the fuck out of here. I mean, that's too much. Jack and Jackie. Jack and Jackie. It's a lot. I guess. The Kennedys, they called him Jack. Even his name was John that we are.


John used to be Jack back in the day. Well, it's just short for John. It's it's literally Jimmy. For James. It's the same foot. It's the same. No, it's one syllable. So what's that's what I'm saying. That's what they do with the same name John. Jack, it's what they're barely why we're not changing anything. That's a different name. You're literally saving no time. You're just calling somebody something. And it's also a completely different name.


They have the same first letter, then it's just a completely different goddamn name, Jack and John. Or do you name your kid Jack or you name it John? You get Amy, get John and go. I mean, that's Jack do. It's like Frank being short for Fred. Yeah, that makes no sense doing why those are different names. Name Frank. Your name I'm afraid. Got that big one. You fucked up. Don't make us suffer.




So that was nineteen ninety and the judge's ruling supported the defense attorneys claim that Mrs Bevan's attacked in self-defense when she shot her husband fifteen times in the bathroom of her home. A lot. The defense focused on the woman's state of mind at the time of the shooting and her belief that her husband planned to kill her or have her killed. And 15 times, 15 times, that's a lot empty. The clip. What year? Nineteen ninety. Oh, OK.


Yeah. Let's see if this isn't the 50s in and out magazine on how that money that was reloaded. A lot of it on December 10th.


Nineteen ninety nine. She's going to plead not guilty. Valla does. She leaves the Agusta Mental Health Institute after being held there obviously involuntarily and she gets to leave. She doesn't deny any responsibility for the death of her husband. She's saying she did it, but she's saying that she is entering a plea of not guilty in formal, arranged formal arrangement proceedings. This case was a case of self-defense, is what the attorney says. She suffered years of abuse in that marriage.


Villa Gogin has terrible remorse for what happened. OK, so the they said they've her lawyer said they've never understood this case, talking about the prosecution. They don't understand it's still valid. Logan refused to wait until the gun was at her head or the knife was at her throat, but it is nonetheless self-defense. It was an act of desperation. She's not a cold, calculating woman, as the state would have you believe. There's no question that this woman is of no risk to anyone.


Fair enough. She goes for a change of venue because this obviously says, you know, everybody knows it's on Easter.


Do you want to look for Easter eggs or the thigh bone? Which one? That's the type of shit that's going on around here. Like it's a, you know, jeans, ties are still out there somewhere. It's crazy shit. So they do they move it from Summerset to York County to get out of the Seattle area. August 2000. They have the search warrant hearing because the judge ends up that whole thing of they didn't have a search warrant.


The judge ends up ruling it legal, saying that basically they didn't realize that they could have got a search warrant. It wasn't like they couldn't communicate, ended up getting it. And so basically they would have found it wasn't like anything would have changed from two days to them, is what they said. So either way, when he got the warrant on the 7th, he still would have found the same shit that he found on the fourth. Does it matter?


So it wasn't like they had one shot to search it. They were there the whole week. The body wasn't there anyway. There you go. So that that that's a quick thing. March 14th, two thousand one is jury selection here. And they that's a hard thing to do because they're. For some reason, a case like this, when they pick a jury, they have to ask them very weird questions about, like how you feel about this.


How do you feel about domestic violence? Have you ever been a victim or have you ever seen and did you grow up with this?


And you have to then want to try to get the people that are sympathetic to a husband to beat the shit out of his wife?


Yeah, the prosecution wants nobody that's ever been around domestic violence because obviously you've got a fucking monster, somebody who does that. Yeah. Jesus Christ, fuck that guy. Would you like something that's never been around it or do you want somebody that's like witnessed it and really affected by it? Well, you know what I mean.


They would side with Vella probably if you're the prosecution, you want somebody who's never seen. It's like you could have got out. You're fine. We're talking about somebody like that or just somebody big. Be horrified by it. You need somebody to seen it and go, oh, fuck. Yeah, you know, that's the defense. But the prosecution wants people who don't care and never seen it and don't care. Yeah. So at this point they're trying to decide Velas legal team comes out and decides that they're not sure.


They don't decide. They're indecisive about the fact that they're not sure if they want a jury trial or they want to waive the jury trial and let it be a bench trial. Let the judge deal with this because they feel like the people people are idiots and you never know the assembled group.


You know, that's the thing about a jury. Like all lawyers say this and prosecutors especially say you never know who you're going to get. So you have no idea on this jury if you're going to get people who how it turns out with your strikes and everything, if you're you're going to find out people who have no sympathy for her. If something comes out something, it's disallowed that who knows where, if it's a judge. Judges look at things there.


They're more intelligent than your average juror.


Prosecutors would rather see a bench trial. Right, because no prosecutors depends on what it is. Yeah, because you don't want to work. That's the case. Is there anything you don't want to entrust all your hard work into? Twelve idiots that know nothing about the law. And that's the thing. But there are a lot of times if you're a prosecutor with a weak case, you can you can meld those twelve and you can make those twelve idiots vote for you.


You can't make you can't make the judge. Sure. That's I mean, like that's like the staircase documentary. We should do a bonus episode on that point with the staircase documentary and the case, not just the documentary. When you look at that, that a bench trial, that guy is not going to be convicted if it was a bench trial because they didn't have any goddamn evidence. Well, they did some, but it was too cloudy, what they call circumstantial.


I'm yeah, they convinced that North Carolina jury of just normal stock and trade people, they convinced him they convinced all of them that that dude was gay and seedy and gross. Yep. That's what they convinced the money they got from there, too. So obviously he'd kill his wife and they all went, aha. Yeah. And they convicted him. When you watch that trial on the documentary, that fucking true face prosecutor. Yeah. That she was the worst.


That lady stank. She would have done games. She'd come in and she'd go the gay. Yeah. She made it like eight syllables and she'd like put stank on it and roll their eyes.


Likewise he was how most sexual encounters was all he was interested in. Like a judge would have went, you can fucking keep your stank off of your I don't need that shit. And she would know better than to do that to a judge because a judge would just piss them off. So don't try to do theatrics with a judge, whereas a jury, you can do a lot of the tricks and the judge will sit there and roll his eyes. But sign up then.


Right. So that's how this works anyway. So she decides or her legal team and decides that it might be better for her to have a judge hear the case rather than a jury. Jury might be able to be convinced, especially at this. The 90s are different and especially in Maine. We've come a long way in twenty years. You really have on especially on domestic violence type shit. So they said that they're going to present the battered woman defense and all that.


The judge said that he will do it helped preside. The defense said basically it's because all of the types of evidence that will be presented this is a very intelligent judge and develop felt that it would be in her best interest to have him hear the case because the jury is just going to hear chopped into seventeen pieces. That's all they're going to hear. I shopped in seventeen pieces, hid in the woods. She didn't say anything. You can say it, convince it that she's a monster.


June of our March of 2001. So some time has gone by here, Vela, before, right before the case is going to trial, Velho decides to plead guilty. Really. She pleads guilty after she gets a very decent offer from the attorney general. What is basically they see the winds in the way this is going and that the fact that this that she's going to have a bench trial does not bode well for the prosecution here. So the offer from the attorney general's office.


Was for a manslaughter conviction here, a manslaughter conviction, and it carries no minimum mandatory minimum sentence as opposed to a murder conviction, which has a mandatory minimum of twenty five years. So for her, it's like I mean, if you go to trial, you could get twenty five. If you take this, I mean, you could get probably very low amount of jail time. You're at the mercy of the judge, though. You're at the mercy of the judge who I mean, you know, you've said it's a smart judge.


You've got you like him, so let him fucking pick. So the the this offer comes in and the her defense attorney said she went back and forth. That was a very difficult decision for her. They felt that she had a good chance of getting acquitted based on her defense. But the risk of a mandatory minimum sentence of twenty five years, you never know what's going to happen. So that outweighs a lot. So they decide that they are going to accept the manslaughter deal.


She's going to do that. One psychiatrist and three psychologists concurred that Vella had been abused throughout her marriage and suffered from battered woman syndrome. The state psychiatrist, everybody, they got four doctors. They all went, oh, she's yeah, they fucking beat her up and messed up for years. So a piece of card. Yeah.


At that point, the state that's why the state made the offer, because it's really hard to go to a murder trial and your experts are going, yeah, the defense is right. I mean, that's a hard thing. You'd have to be like, nope, doesn't matter. Anyway, she should have done something different. She tried to leave. She went many times. The judge here in his written ruling, he said that that the state's evidence against gogin standing alone, like we said, would be a, you know, tough thing.


But then if you add in her side of it, it's not that bad. He said that Vela had, quote, a partial self-defense argument arising from her fear that her husband, based on his history of abuse and her belief that he was going to kill her. He also suggested that shooting her husband was not her only possible course of action. She said, quote, She could have walked out that front door, Drew.


But, yeah, obviously it's more complicated than that. These conflicting messages could lead from murder to manslaughter, the judge said. So they also talked about her avoiding detection and her psychiatric condition, and he's basically weighing the whole thing. So he said but the entire weight of it is, like we said, she killed him.


She's not killing anybody else unless they abuse her for 40 years and she's fifty five already. So that's probably not happening. So the prosecutor, though, is pissed off. Prosecutor makes a statement. He hates this. The attorney general's office made the deal. The guy who's prosecuting the case, Benson, is his name.


He hates that he he wanted well, he wanted her for twenty five years. He was fucking mad at her. Man. I just picture angry Perry Mason, angry guy. He's just so angry, this man. He said the state had overwhelming evidence in this case that Valla gogin intentionally or knowingly caused the death of her husband. Unfortunately, that that is the only part of the trial equation. When the issue is self-defense, the issue of self-defense has generated the burden shifts to the state to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant knew either that her husband was not about to use deadly force against her or that she knew it was not necessary to use deadly force against him.


In this case, all of the forensic experts, including those from the state forensic service, agree that the defendant, the defendant, had an honest, though perhaps objectively unreasonable belief that her husband was about to use deadly force against her under Maine law. I guess that translates into a manslaughter. He's not thrilled with this, but basically said all of my experts said it. So everybody's going to be a doctor now, I guess.


I guess. Fuck it. Yeah, that's fine. So April 5th, two thousand one is sentencing. During the hearing, Jean Gorgons family gets a chance to speak and they whoa, they not pull any punches. They say some nasty shit in court. Jean Gorgons family. Oh, yeah. Really a real nasty to her. She pleaded guilty. And and man, here we go. Let's talk about it. She Avella had a there's a two hour sentencing hearing and Vela gets to say her thing and she does think she gets to make her statement.


We always say here, if you're going to plead guilty when they tell you, what do you want to say? You'd better say something. Yeah. And sympathetic. Yeah, empathetic sympathy.


Better not just be like, I guess, Your Honor. Fuck it. I don't have shit to say to you. Well, that's probably not good because we've heard judges go, well, I was going to give them five years and then he said or that yeah. Then he was a jerk in court. So I gave him twelve years. And you're like, whoa, that's a lot of different years for you to have just gone. You know, it's a terrible thing.


I'm sorry. And I shouldn't have done it. And I you know, I know better now. That's all you had to say. Seven, seven years in prison, prison, actual prison, seven years.


We've heard that exact scenario where the guy's like, I was going to give you this, but you're being a dick. So you know what? I'm allowed to do that. You're going away, she says, quote, Your Honor, I am very sorry for what I did to Jean, I'm sorry for hurting his family and my family. I loved Jean very much, but I thought he was going to kill me and I didn't want to die. That seems reasonable when someone says it puts it that way.


And I didn't want to die. I wanted her as well. Quickly, we'll give you the sentencing here.


The judge says, I guess you, ma'am, may fuck off. He says that she'll be sentenced to 15 years in prison, but all but six of them suspended just six years in prison and then six years probation after that. And time served and time served, six years in prison. The courtroom, there was about 15 members of the Grogan family in the courtroom as well. And then we'll talk about what they say here. Vellar, though, is led away by deputies to begin serving her six year prison term.


Afterwards, she hugs her family family. They let her hug her family and all that type of shit.


So it becomes the Vela family are the Gorgon family here? They are expressing outrage. They called it a lenient sentence and suggestive. They all said that if the marriage was abusive, it was Vello. That was the abuse. Oh, not even Jeem. All valid. She's the abuser. Susan Astiz, a niece of Jim Gogin, said she was ashamed to be a resident of the state of Maine today. Really a shame, to be honest. I'm ashamed to be a Mainer.


They brought shame, shame, shame upon the state to state. The judge's decision may brought shame upon the state and has she has lost her faith in the judicial system altogether. Up until now, the American judicial system has been perfectly just. No one's ever been. Yeah, it's just been perfect. We've never had a problem with it.


But now this is post O.J. that an abused older lady. Yeah, well, not only that, this is for what do they do to people they didn't like forever? Every fucking minority and everything else for years and years. I mean, now, though, that an abused older lady only has to go to prison for six years. Yeah, ashamed the whole thing. Now it's finally done. We should start over, break down the whole system, not just mine.


Forty nine other states, Americans, every system stay set. Are you satisfied? And she said, no, we're not satisfied. She said then. Wow, she said, I yelled at the reporter, quote, You think he had it coming, right? Well, hell, no, he didn't. Wow. How could anyone in their right mind do this? And this lady is shouting in a courtroom, by the way, she said the six year sentence would set an example in the state of Maine.


That's that it sets precedent. We can all our spouses lives are worth six years. Yeah. Let's say we can kill them all. Well, the judge has an answer for that.


That's amazing. Yeah. So she then shouts at Valla in the court, quote, I hope your conscience destroys you. And then Cynthia Spencer, who's another niece of Jean, said that Vella had spent years isolating Jean from his family. He she says, quote, If the situation here were reversed, Jean would have been behind bars immediately. So another statement she read during the hearing, this was read by her husband here, the Cynthia Spencer's husband. She said that VLA Gogin killed Jean Gogin out of rage, not fear.


And Jean Gogin was not the man the defense portrayed him to be. She further advised she further advised men in unhappy marriages to, quote, sleep with one eye open because now it's now you can just kill your husband.


It's open season. So the judge stops all of that shit that they kept saying. And he says, this is a fucking judge. This is justice. Frisky, frisky. Fritzie, I don't know. He says this is a hilarious quote. I don't think we're going to have husband stacked up like cordwood across the state because of this particular sentence. I think I don't think this is going to ruin society. Relax, think this is a very stacked up like cordwood.


Chill the fuck out is what he said. Calm down. He appeared.


I mean, these people lost a relative. Obviously, they're upset that they're mad and they're going to be mad. But at the same time, contextually, you know, you can't blow it out like this. Yeah.


The judge said he seemed to think the sentencing agreement was reasonable and that he tried that he tried the case based on the evidence in front of him. He would have probably found, Jean, are guilty of manslaughter. He said if it went to me, we would have gone through it and got the same fucking conclusion. It's manslaughter. He said, quote, I think I would have agreed that the that murder was too much and an acquittal was not appropriate.


I think manslaughter is fair here. Jean Gorgons family also did not want to comment. Seems like they wanted to comment a lot to say. One unidentified man with the family's. Reamed out from the crowd, quote, The judge just forgot to give her back her gun, a knife so she can do it again. Oh, my God, dreamed that out after the goddamn sentencing came down.


Bastard. That's not a good thing to do because you could just be held in contempt. Judges can do whatever they want in their courtroom. You can't do that in a courtroom anywhere.


You're in like a crazy person's house at that point. And all the doors are locked and you can do whatever he wants. And if you try to run away that he has armed people, that will drag you back and there's rules and have whatever is done to you done put you in a room with bars, literally could be like contempt. Put that person in jail. What did I do? Doesn't matter. I don't like it. You're in my fucking court.


They just drag you away. I said you did contempt, but you did. How long till I feel like it, OK? That's like you don't even need legal process. It's crazy. They just throw you a fucking wild. So. So she goes into jail obviously for manslaughter and and she does her time and she gets out of jail here and she's she gets out I believe, December of a twenty seven I believe either way. Twenty six.


She ends up getting out, you know, after her time she's quiet for a little bit and then she starts having some trouble once she's out.


This is just sad. December of 2008, she's arrested again. Oh, no. Yeah, this is not good. She's on obviously parole or probation for six years now. She's arrested for nothing violent. Couldn't be couldn't be any less violent than this. She's in her 60s now. She's arrested from stealing from an Olympic sports store in Waterville, Maine. She stole two bottles of water and a pair of crocs. Why? That's what she stole, of all things.


Oh, no, I don't know why. Two bottles of water and a pair of a pair of crocs. Why the crocs? That's disappointing. That's disappointing. So in 2009, she goes back to jail for violating her parole or.


No, for shoplifting. Yeah, but she does.


She's just six, six months. She has to do so.


At least she doesn't get like, you know, do our whole the rest of the fifty, twenty five years for it.


Yeah. She's released in June of 2009. She gets out.


So that's a year as well. August of 2009. Oh she's out of jail a couple of months. She's arrested again. What the fuck. Valla again for shoplifting. What again. Yeah. I don't know what her problem is. She take this time. This time she know what store it was, but she. Oh, it's a Hannaford which is a grocery store. Yeah. Hannaford's she is arrested, charged with this for stealing two bottles of baby powder.


What the fuck. What do you need. Baby powder for two bottles of baby powder, not babies. No, I don't know if she's got a moisture problem on her own or she's sweaty or what, but two bottles of baby powder. The court appointed attorney asked she will be released on her own recognizance. She's told the judge she has would have trouble paying any amount of bail. She has no money. They stole baby powder. I have the Euromoney, Crock's and baby powder.


The district attorney said that the probation officer recommended that Vela undergo psychiatric evaluation and be held without bail because of the, first of all, the oddness of it and the also nature of the underlying charge. And because two razor blades were found in the door handle of her car, which is strange, Vellar told the judge she used the razor blades to open the window of her car. What she had to get it.


I don't know how she I don't know why she would need razor blades to the window of her car.


But at the time she was arrested with this stuff, she told the police that the razor blades were for, quote, picking scabs off her legs.


Oh, my God. How many scabs do you have? Maybe if you didn't use a razor blade is how we pick scabs. That is wild. I mean, there something there's something wrong here. There's something it's not. Right. She clearly didn't want to talk about the real reason for those. There's something going on. I don't know my I what what. Yeah.


They talk about what makes this noteworthy is that the defendant was convicted of manslaughter. And the defense attorney at one point says, just like I don't even know I don't know why she's doing this. And I'm I'm perplexed and I'm just I'm worried that I don't know what's wrong with her, basically.


And so the the that the prosecutor is trying to get her thrown back in jail for the rest of her sentence, basically, this should be whatever. And he said that she's been convicted of manslaughter. And the judge said that, you know, he would have set a higher bail if she'd brought in on a violent charge. But he said, quote, Shoplifting is not that kind of offenses. Two bottles of baby powder fucking relax.


So August of two thousand nine, she's in court for her probation violation. She's they set bail at a five thousand dollar unsecured bond, which she can just basically it's Pahwa. She won't have to put up any bail unless she fails to appear in court is the way that works. So if she's convicted, she could be sent back to prison for up to. Nine years, the remainder of her sentence, the four and a half years, a bottle, crazy new misdemeanor charge of theft by unauthorized taking, she faces up to six months in jail and a fine of one thousand dollars.


Obviously, the amount of time that you ask on a revocation is going to increase. The more violations you have is what they said. The idea that probation is it's a court order that we expect you to obey the court orders as you continue to violate the law while you're on probation. The ante keeps going up, obviously. And this is you can see a picture of Veldheer after she's this is her mug shot being around.


That lady shot a man once. Yeah. She's just like the lady in her 60s who looks like kind of a sad old lady for her. Looks like a sad older lady. That's a depressed girl.


That's it for the lady that everybody is valid. Gorgan and Jean Gheorghe in Portland, Maine, she's. She's out now. Yeah. Yeah, she's out now. I think she's she's still alive, from what I've seen. She has she's going by her maiden name again. She's going by Pelletiere again. But that's what she's listed under. She lives in Maine, I believe, but she's out of prison and out of jail and hasn't been in any more trouble since then or anything like keep your hands in your pockets.


So hands in your pockets. Watch out for baby powder. And here's the other thing. If you work at a store and you see some old lady, she steals baby powder, maybe talk to her even before you call the cops, maybe talk to her and see what her situation is. And you know what? Maybe dip into your pocket and you fucking pony up four bucks for the baby powder and you go, you know what? I got this.


Don't worry about it. And you take it's an old lady. How often that check that is actually going to happen.


And if do you see her stealing Krispy, talk her into the Nike says, I'm saying be like, listen, you need to up your your thievery game here.


Wear those. How the fuck are you going to.


I get it that you have to.


But I'm that's I am not calling the cops on a lady in her 60s who's not a physical danger to anybody unless she's waving around weapons. I'm not calling the cops on an old lady. I'm just not I'm just not doing it. I don't think I could either.


I'm not now. I can't I can't just I can't do it.


I just picture something ringing in my head being like, what are you going to fucking what's wrong with you? You know, are you afraid of some old lady? Call the cops and they'll send an old lady that was you going to do it? It's rings in my head. I got uncles going on. I can't deal with it. So are you scared of me? Is she going to come over here? It's going to take something from you.


You're worried. You're worried. They're going to take off you, Jimmy.


Come on.


So your hands in your pockets of crocs in your closet, you got baby powder.


You going to come get your sweet little moist, little sweaty.


Is that your problem with sweating the coming after you, Fijis?


So if you like that, let us know about it. Get on Apple podcast. That purple icon gave us five stars because that helps a ton. We don't know why, but it helps drive you up the charts. Something about us. Oh, there you go. Get on there, please. It does help a lot and say something. We don't care what you say because it's not for our ego. It's literally just to drive us up the charts and help on a business end to favorite water.


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I fucking hate real men at murder, small on Twitter, at small town pot on Facebook and at small town murder on Instagram. Check all that out. Follow us. Keep up with it. That's sad. After this crazy ass line and everything else, I need to hear the names of the most fantastic goddamn people who would never chop us up into so many pieces that our thighbones were never found. Gemmy hit me with those names.


Right now, this week's executive producers are Jordan Bennett. Brian Harber donated two ways. Thank you so much, Brian. Yeah, that requires an explanation. Yeah, probably. I'm on the phone, everybody. It's a long, long way with Jimmy Sirio and I'm on the phone. It's such a long explanation that we don't have time for it until later. Well, there's a reason why I am in a remote location. Yeah, it doesn't matter to me.


Has to shout. I mean, damn it, I don't care where I am. I'm fucking. We'll figure it out. I want the people right. The rest of the people. Executives this week are Joshua West, Natasha Patel, Sabrina Jones, Suzanna Platt, Abby Artley, Amanda Jacobs, Jason Fuller. Sean Baner died. Man. Oh, man. Yes, I'm serious. Short story short, on Twitter and one of our original listeners.


Yeah, man, we really that that kills us. We met him multiple times. Like what a guy what a nice guy. We really, really like anybody you met up by you guys. If you want to live shows or whatever, they're just to let you know that he passed away an enormous person, just a sweetheart. What a hurdle. I don't really think I'm going to listen to teddy bear of a guy. Truly. Absolutely. Emily Roberts.


Clay Thorson. Again, Clay is a goddamn hero. Thank you so much, Clay. Thank you. Edward Lee, Charlotte Sherlyn Hyde, George Nyman's, Sean Galloway, Marie Cifas, Lisa Williamsville Vaidya Sepúlveda of the Alisson Variety, Ferne and Irma. No last names for either. Andrew MacLane, Kajiji and Treston Wheelin. Thank you guys so much. Drooly. You're fucking amazing. Happy birthday this week. Kelly Danilovich and also Macchi, both of them have birthdays on saying to my vote, connection is awful and easiest as far as terrible going on.


Other producers this week are actually vote. Steve Schnell, April Pendley, Sarah de Leon Paten, Meadow's Brendan Abels, Joshua Franker, Rabbi Shmuel Novich. Zach Bunyah. James Marter, Reagan Shankly. Justin Zagorsky. Cliff Marx. Happy Birthday. Leslie Anderson. Janice Hill. Tim Holland. Carole Bron, Judd Spidy. Georgia Metal Alliance. How he Felt Snatched. Mariah Raspier Meline Mopar.


Rachel Toco. Cyndi Welkin. Happy Birthday Thomas DeMello. And there's also Dominic de Coco and Markovsky Calame Generic. That's the guys from Inglourious Basterds Tinnell Randall. Welcome home. Mark Twan Lisse Face Lisse Face Lift. This is Katie Miller. Marcus Garfunkel TJ Max birthday was last week. Happy birthday S.J. Amanda Lucas. Scott Suza Brenton Bradley James Ward Delaney. Robert Jacqueline Brown. Greg Dolor. Andrew Anderson. Kristen Shulman. Jack Jacklin. Jake Fraser. Nope, that's Jack Frazier, Andrew Heller, Peter and Hanshaw.


Joshua Hazeldene, Julia Larson, Johnston Davis, Kevin NES Goda, Jimmy Noodle Legs. Hey would you blow me Danielle. I'm not blowies. There is no cuffs are over. Daniel Danielle Van Vest Galani Lane Ploughshare Plush. Judy Anderson, Christina Baltar's. Wade Stein Pryce. Ronan de Marcus Smart. Marcus Evans, Dana Brown, Ashley Livingston, Shalon Shalan, Austin Jensen, Nathan Tipton, Danielle, but Sheena notation patients, Racey, Rice, David Santtana.


They see her right Harkless and Michael and Joy good ol Leonard. Luke Del Medico What Del Medika Christine and Ruxton like the Teddy Ruxpin Brandon Voronoi. Carrie Clardy Golden State Theatre. Jenny Hendriksen, Karen Morris Jordan Crem Boss. Mark Latino life is going to go real slow just top General Chasey Less Qaisi. Caleb Jenkins. Nathan Wright. Melanie Curtis DGB nine five five two. Jack Farrell. Joanna BoCom Hammer a strong arm. Tactics Tactics The Great Then White.


Christina Stuttaford Avonlea. Ivanna Cabrera. Jeremy Loopier. Chloe Hammon's BRI Alabama. Zach Cowan. Shelden Stewart. Helena Souza. Whitney Pope. Sarah Group Group. Brandon Moe. Rachelle Largent. Jackie McDonald. Lyle Harington. Eric Ty Cody. What else do we got here? Christina Hansen. Sammy Mazzarelli fingers roll like the winner, Chris Alster, Eric. And then also Eric Luvin Keith Gillenwater, Gillenwater, Tiffany O'Grady, Shelby Gallagher, Lauren Delgado, Delich Delgado, Delgado Delgado.


Kelly is one of them. I think Aaron would no last name. Cody Renou, Victor Valenti's, Spencer Battersby, Jenna Narron, Nathaniel Hager's, Alex Wilson, Tim Foley, Aura's Xianjun, Don Walter, Julian Paani. James Calvert, Teresa Big Joe G. Brendan Hym hit him with the HINH. Kenny, Craig Laurine. Gayle Smith, Aaron Reichenbach. Oh boy is that German Harrison Boon. Nicole Powers Chucky's seventy five Cliff Paquette. We met Cliff in fucking Boston.


I think that guy's is awesome. Christine with no last name. V Moore, Jasper Brook Howard. Shelly Harrell Harrell I think Darby and Jason no last names. Carson Murdock, Kelsey W, Amanda Boese, Big Ben, Emma, Lenore Garza, Braden Kukan, Alicia Andrews, Melissa Pascola, Corey, James Hoad, CW, Rachelle Amore, Kenny Johnson. Fayrouz would no last name Benji. Benjamin Williams. Cody would no last name. Chris Clarey, Ryan Crighton Derrick or Jonathan Vasquez.


Lisa Fletcher. Stacey H. Stephanie Fushi. Hoshi. Yeah. Derrick is coming out like nobody's business. So Derrick Elizondo. Matt Easy reader. Parker was that Matt. It is Megan Halstead, Bianca Gambles, Chris Sheere, Melanie IDE, Kristen Bradley. Scott Works. Aleesha Noffke, Flora Sarrell, Mike Banning. Shelley would no last name. Jason Brinkman. Chad Thompson. Dustin would no last name. Benjamin Pearson. Andrew Soundin. Chris McDaniel.


Mallory Maynard. Jonathan Winter. Robyn Ladwig. Laura McCune. Brittany Wood. No last name. Alexis Tirrell Terell Mandy Olsen Shanae or Shannon Argueta. What. No. You know what it is. It's God damn it that was my phone Argueta Jay Sparks. Derek Half. Amy Driscoll. Zach Painter. Markese Munsen. Bob Richmond. Michael Gonzales. James Nope. That's Kyle James Parbo. Mark Samples Amandola. No last name. Cortland Fiera Isabelle Kitces nor McIntosh Cortile alias Lucille the Drag Queen Kiya with no last name.


Kari Baccy Hansen. Morgan Smith. Ali Jo Alli Rhodes. That's that is Josh Roy, Sue Pacho, Ashley McKeever, Sam Simmons, Jake Friant Front Marilyn Rogers, Sam and Rachel Kristoffersson. Yes, it's hard to say Kristoffersson. God damn it, I can't have interruptions right now. I'm not turning you off, James. I'm hitting the fucking sound off. There we go. I can turn that off. And you're still there, right? Yeah, we're good.


All right. Michael Poppa. Yes, Michael.


Papa, I'm Sam and Rachel Kristofferson. Michael, Papa. Gary Ewbank. I'm going to get past those two names. Madison Palevsky. Chris Larkins. Yes, Maria with no last name. Jack Griffin. Shane Spiner. Sarah Brunelleschi, Randy Diaz, Holly, Katherine Jackson, Jennifer Looing Garreth, Bobby Turner, Tornier Tournier, Erica Martinez, Jason Williams, Alexandria catch biologies the tawnya. Yeah I think that's right. Mattey, Kimberly Cooey, Ben Meral, Dustin Cotchin, Ruben Lee Ruki Iraq.


Hierro never going to get it. Tracy Vaughn. Eric Grisham win with no last name. Jed Lynch. Jacob Teekay Heather would no last name. Fritz would no last name. Regina Beth Cole. Eric Palsson. Cody Jaggers. Christian Parrish The Lion King. Thirty four. Ray Harben. James Widrich. Kate Hockett. Kat Hawkins. Colin Walker Marvin Massu Boat, Mike Clue's Elizabeth Arul, Amy Lee and Nicholas Myers. Danny Lynn. Miguel Robles, two Brothers Lawn Service QB with no last name.


David Treuer like Vern Vern Troy, Stephen Smith Dissociated Dissociatives podcast Lendee with no last name. Justin gets rid of Raita Valid GRV, Chris Stansel, Megan Cok, Vanessa Fuentes's Spradley Ryan Grillo, Natasha Zah, Louise Victoria stillI. Katie Witherington, Justin Roth Deira Oeming. Amanda Gorell Daniel Daniel Tavor IT Workers one. Chris Nova Melissa Night Amam Soulis Paul Kabur music Lost in Thought. Lee Aspe Ashburn. Brian Verbalised Leslie Goodwin Mackenzie Whalan Chadbourne Smith Laura Laura Flon Lou with no last name.


I hope it's that teacher that I had Lou Tracy Bekker, Barry Sanderson, Christina with no last name Teta would no last name. David Dresher like Fran Victoria Peregrine K Flach, Kimberly Ledford, Sam Cokely, Christina Dombra, Jennifer Mentor, Nathan Belfry and Shannon Schaefer. Sandy with no last name. Aliya's Ziman. These Rick Rose. Nope, that's Nick Rose Dowa Marsha Big Matt GM Bruno Justin Jud HONY Helmes. Matthew Martin, Michael Stewart, Matt Shiflett, Cody Cochran.


That's a tough one. Amanda Jacobs, Jed Great. Amy McFarland, Lucy and Laura Lacau. John ok ok. OK, Zindel Melissa Calice Cartwright Dzerzhinsky Dispell Bound. I don't know. Oh somebody didn't leave a name at all. Oh you know what it was. It was, it was all Chinese letters and I'm not going to try to read those because it's OK with that. So that's part of their email to bound. Oh, Michelle Hayes.


I do the creative right. Katherine Harris, Samuel Moffat, Heidi Wilson, Justin Scott, Kyle Gwinnett, Alicia Borbor, Jolli Gayet, guya guy. Oliver Grant with no last name. Dan Lynn, lenegan. Latasha Boxley, French toast, mashed potatoes. That's disgusting. What the fuck. Bethany Graceville Tanner when I knocking Bobby Grand Molyneaux Barrel Dariusz a Nike Senthil Sanfield, Amanda Zill, Mickey Don Murray, Libbey Baxter. Shannon Baxter, Jason Lewis, Kayla Krupski, Nicholas Nicholas.


Oh this whole lievre fabulous. Very exotic ethnic. No no it's ridiculous. Sweater's Oh Jesus. Caitlin Stephensen, Sergeant Brandyn, Bill Pagano, Joseph and Bianca Bryant are June and big. Same to you and all of our patrons. You guys are truly amazing. Thank you so much. We went out of our way for you goddammit, because you guys mean something to us and we want to make sure that we acknowledge it. And thank you so, so much.


Thank you everybody so much. Honestly, we cannot thank you enough for all that you do for us. Your you make the show. We'll just put it that way. We don't even care if nobody wanted to put an ad on the show or anything like that, which we would still be doing it just for you, because that's our warm hug.


Everyone here. Thank you. What if they wanted to give you a warm social media hug? How could they find you out?


Westman sucks. Yes-Man sucks on Twitter and Instagram. And thank you so much. Happy Valentine's Day. What about what about youth?


You can find me over at at Jimmy P is funny or you just copy and paste my you know how to fucking find people on the internet.


Small town murder posts. You'll find us. No Labotte stop. With that said, I think it's time to get out of here to celebrate a fantastic Valentine's Day, hopefully in a more romantic way than these folks have chosen to do in our story. What do you say to that? But I think it's time until next week, everybody. It's been our pleasure. My.