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How? Dear everybody, I think you know where this is headed. It's our episode on Disgust. This is a Josh pick way back in the day. This is March 2019, and I thought initially, well, what in the world are we going to talk about with disgust? I'm not sure I get this one, Josh. But he knew, as he always does, that there was something more to it than meets the eye, and he was right. So check it out and learn all about disgust right here, right now. Bleh.

Welcome to stuff you should know. A production of iHeartradio.

And welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryan over there, and there's Jerry. And this is disgust and stuff you should know about disgust.

You got to say it like that.

I'm excited about this one, Chuck. Do you know why?

I have no idea.

I think you do. If you stopped and really thought about, that's fine. That's fine. But if you stopped and thought about it, you would say, yes, I know exactly why, Josh. And it is as follows. Colon quotes. Because this is one of those things that science hasn't fully explained, which means there's a lot of interesting theories, which means we just get to talk smack the whole time.

It's interesting. This is one of those where I was reading it, and it was sort of interesting, but then I was like, why would anyone even study this?

That's a good question. That's a good question. I think one of the reasons that I'm fascinated by it and that I'm sure one of the reasons to dedicate your career to studying disgust. It is kind of a bizarre idea. But one of the main researchers in the study of disgust is a guy named Paul Rosen. He's kind of like the godfather, maybe even the father of the field. Yeah, sure. But he's been doing it longer than anybody. So he's the pappy, as they say in the hills. He said that to him, disgust is the thing, the emotion, the experience that makes humans human, that it is disgust that separates us from the other animals that we share the animal kingdom with, so much so that we actually may use disgust to separate ourselves from the rest of the animals. Okay, that is pretty fascinating. And it's worth exploring too, because I think it says a lot about us as humans and as animals. Yeah. So that's the answer to your question. How about that?

All right. No, I get why somebody would want to study. I guess I'm talking about allocating funds to study it.

Oh, got you.

It just seems like a strange thing to sink money into.

Well, I mean, if the humanities are going to sink money into anything, what makes us the most human would be.

It makes sense according to one guy.

Right.

I love it. Let's talk about gross things.

Okay, so we're going to. This whole idea of studying it, of studying disgust is actually pretty new. Rosen didn't really start until like, the wasn't until the really picked up, which we'll kind of get into. But prior to that, it was basically just philosophers who were talking about disgust, right?

Yes. And I'm not sure about studying, but at least as far as it seems to me, like it was more of like, where's the boundary as far as what can we write about and what can we talk about and what can we perform and still sell books and tickets.

Right. We want people to be tantalized at the thought of being grossed out or disgusted, but not actually be disgusted. And it's a fine line that's walked.

No, of course. And it's subjective.

It is. But the other thing about disgust that's pretty interesting is it also appears to be universal. It's a universal reaction. But what disgusts people is not universal. It's culturally bound, I guess. Right. And maybe personal, too.

Sure. I think totally personal.

So over time as discuss, kind of moved out of the realm of philosophers and into science. There were a couple people who kind of made contributions early on in the field. One was Charles Darwin. He wrote a treatise on it. And his big thing was that disgust was related to taste, which is true to an extent, but that was Darwin's big thing. And then later on, there was a guy psychoanalyst named Andrus Angiol and Andris Angol basically said, no, disgust is not really related to the, it comes from the idea or the thought of putting something horrific into the mouth, which, again, kind of makes sense to a certain extent. But then when Rosen and friends came along, it really started to take off, and they actually managed to kind of categorize disgust into a few categories, which is what you do when you categorize things.

Yeah, the first one is core disgust, and that's what you think of everyone has their own triggers. But if vomit or feces or entrails or something, that's core disgust. That's an encounter with some sort of physical contaminant that makes you make that face.

Right. And that face specifically, that's another universal thing, too. Apparently. The face is called the gape, which is your mouth is open, your tongue may or may not be sticking out, your nose is wrinkled, and your upper lip is raised.

Interesting. I don't do that with my mouth open, though.

So you just kind of do the nose wrinkle in the upper lip, I guess, like this.

But I don't open my mouth.

Right.

That's why I sort of like, I don't know when it comes to stuff like this, when they make these sweeping statements, like, everyone makes this face, right? Well, everyone may make a variation of a face.

There's like a universal set of characteristics to the face that you could choose from that would fall into disgust like that.

Well, I don't know if you choose anything, but maybe your natural reaction, I don't open my mouth. And when I read that everyone opens their mouth, I'm like, no, that's not true.

So I think one of the reasons why there is this idea of it being universal is because evolutionary psychology, as we'll see, has said like, yes, this is our realm, we've got this, we're going to explain this one. And to fully explain it, it basically has to be universal. So I think that's another thing about the point where the study of disgust is right now. There's a lot of good ideas, some of which have kind of been shown to be probably true thanks to the wonder machine, but it's not fully explained. And so there are some ideas and descriptions that make it seem kind of wacky, too, right?

Yeah, for sure. That second kind of disgust, getting back to that, was animal nature disgust, which is apparently these are things that anything that reminds us that we're really animals. And there could be a wide range of things there, from some people think people eating with their hands is disgusting. And I think that would qualify under animal nature because you're eating like an animal. Let's say sex. And we'll get into that more later. But apparently there's a baseline disgust for sex, which I'm not so sure about that one either. And then hygiene is another one. Poor hygiene is the animal nature disgust.

Yeah. And another one is, like you said, entrails something that's called the body envelope, the ideal body envelope being violated, whether it's like there's a deformity or there is some sort of open wound or something like that. They think that this whole animal nature thing, that all these things remind us that we are animals and that disgust can be triggered by that reminder that we are, in fact, animals, which is kind of weird, but we'll get into explanations for that later. I can't wait.

That's right. And the final one is moral disgust. And this is one where you can be disgusted with someone's behavior or disgusted with something a politician does or disgusted with racism or bigotry, something like that.

Right. And that one makes the least amount of sense if you think about it. Okay. The first two were just kind of like, all right, it's animal related. We might have issues with being animals, so we're kind of disgusted by ourselves at the thought that we're animals. Maybe it's a bit more of a stretch than that. Core disgust. Like, core disgust makes the most sense out of all of them. Agreed.

Yeah. And I don't even think that the moral disgust, I think that's a different type of thing altogether.

So people have proposed that. Some people have said, well, english speakers are just misusing the word disgust. They're actually talking. Right. Well, they've done studies of people in the wonder machine that shows that the region of the brain, the anterior insula, that usually lights up when you're shown a picture of, like, dog poop and said, you're going to eat this. Your anterior insula lights up. That same region lights up when people are disgusted with other people morally. Remember the ultimatum game? I don't remember. It used to come up all the time back in the day in our episodes.

Oh, yeah.

So if somebody was given a really low offer, a take it or leave it offer, that was so low and so unfair that the person said, I'm just leaving it. I actually don't want this free money because I find it insulting. That same part of the brain that is triggered by fecal disgust is also triggered, which supports the idea that there actually is a moral dimension to disgust and that we experience it in the same way.

Yeah, that's interesting.

It is interesting, but it's the most tenuous of those three, I think.

So the way this all started out, there are a bunch of theories, but it makes sense that it might have been sort of an offshoot of distaste, which is your body is conditioned, thanks to evolution, to if you eat something that's bitter or rotten, like your instinct, your taste instinct, is to throw it out and get rid of it, and it's a defense mechanism to save your life. And so the idea is that disgust developed out of that and that it's just simply an evolutionary trait that could have saved Tuktuk's life however many years ago.

Yeah. And there's evidence apparently, that this distaste, which is basically an involuntary reaction, is like dropping something that's hot. Like you don't stop and think like, wow, this cooking pan is about five, hold on, 550 degrees fahrenheit, and then you drop it. I should probably drop it. Like, you just drop the pan. Distaste is the same exact thing, and they've actually seen it elsewhere in the animal kingdom. So we've probably experienced distaste since before we were humans. And it's just spitting something out that doesn't seem right in an effort to, I guess, keep the body from becoming polluted with disease. Right. And they think that distaste somehow became a behavior that was laid over this. I'm sorry, disgust was a behavior that became laid over this existing structure of distaste. Yeah.

And that's interesting to me because that means that it becomes, all of a sudden, it's not like you have to eat poop to be disgusted.

Right?

Like the mere sight of poop now can disgust somebody. Yes. And that just happened over time, I think.

So that is why Rosen says this is like, disgust is the defining characteristic of humanity, because they suspect that other animals, at the very least, almost all other animals, don't have the cognitive capacity to use their imagination to imagine themselves eating poop and being disgusted by it as a result. Right. So that's why they say disgust separates humans from animals, because it requires imagination to go from an involuntary reaction of spitting out food to not even getting to the point where the food is in your mouth. You can imagine that you would have that reaction and experience the emotion of disgust. So you don't have to go through that process, that actually very dangerous process of eating something rotten to figure out that you shouldn't be eating it. You can imagine it beforehand. And that's the function that disgust, at least core disgust, provides humanity. It advances us. We don't have to learn through trial and error, over and over again not to eat rotting meat. We just know on some very basic level that that is a disgusting thing to do when we have a reaction to it.

Are you want to take a break?

Yeah.

All right, everyone, we're going to be right back right after this with more discussed. For every kind of driver, there's a Hyundai, whether it's from our range of fuel efficient petrol and diesel models, our latest hybrid range, or our family of all electric models. Talk to us and find the Hyundai that's right for you and your family, visit Hyundai ie to learn more. Hyundai, our family designed for yours.

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Hi, I'm Susie Esman.

And I am Jeff Garland.

Yes, you are. And we are the hosts of the history of Curb your enthusiasm podcast. We're going to watch every single episode. It's 122, including the pilot, and we're going to break them down.

And by the way, most of these episodes I have not seen for 20 years.

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So I think we should go back to Tuktuk. And just like how this actually may have worked back in the day, let's say Tuktuk and his budy mock mock are strolling along the tundra.

You know, Chuck, after eleven years, I am surprised that we have a new character, and I am very pleased.

Mock mock. Yeah, well, don't get used to him, because he's about to die.

Poor Machmok.

So Tuktuk and Machmok are walking along the tundra, they find an old dead antelope, and Machmok is like, well, this doesn't smell great, but I tell you what, I'm going to eat this thing because I don't have this genetic trait, because my mom ate this stuff, and it's fine. And Tuktuk's like, I don't know, my friend. It looks and smells gross. I do have this genetic trait, so I'm going to pass on that. So Machmok's like, you're a sucker. I'm going to chow down on this rotten antelope, and then Machma gets sick and dies before Machmok can have any babies. And then if this happens thousands and tens of thousands of times over a huge population, you can see how over time, it would be like any physical evolutionary trait that might evolve over time. And all of a sudden, Tuktuk's family is thriving today in the United States, all healthy descendants of Tuktuk and Machmok is long gone.

Right? And because Tuktuk was able to pass along his genes of being disgusted by rotten meat, and Machmok died before he could pass his genes of not being disgusted along. So nature or natural selection or evolution selected for tuk tuks, right, right.

And Tuktuk was a prolific lover, as.

We all know, and I imagine mock mock in his dying words, gasping, I regret never having seen the ocean. Yeah, probably so it's a good mock mock. Everyone doesn't know, but it's true. That was just like ocean. So, Chuck, that's the evolutionary psychology basis for explaining how disgust came along and was passed along, right? And it makes sense on a very basic level, but it starts to get less and less sensible, as you've already pointed out, as we start to add more and more inputs of disgust. Right? Like, yes, it makes sense that either somehow the idea of not eating meat was passed along, either genetically or even, you could say Tuktuk went back to the hunter gatherer tribe and said, hey, let me tell you what happened to Machmok. It was crazy. He ate some rancid antelope, which I guess we all kind of thought was okay up to this point. But let me tell you, steer clear of the rancid antelope. You don't want to have anything to do with that, because it just killed Machmok and everyone trusting Tuktuk and not just assuming that he hit Machmak with a rock or something out in the wilderness and left him to die, that he actually did die from eating antelope.

This became passed along. This is another way it could have happened. And that this ancient knowledge we just lost where the ancient knowledge came from, that was actually tuktuk seeing mock mock die. And instead, it just became something that we came to think of as, like, instinct. Over time, you just don't eat rancid meat. But really what it is, rather than being passed along genetically, it was, I guess, a meme, an idea that was passed along generation to generation, and it became so ingrained that we just confuse it for genes or instinct as well, which is another explanation of it. But both of them have, like, an evolutionary component to it, for sure.

Yeah. And then over time, that even changes to where it's not like humans. Let's talk about a human body, then. Like a dead human body. A corpse.

Let me get my poking stick.

Well, you probably wouldn't poke it because your evolutionary instinct is to probably just stay away from that body.

Well, that's what the stick is for.

And it's not just because, well, it may be partially because a dead body just might creep someone out, but there's also an evolutionary basis to avoid that body, get it out of the house and bury it, because it may have been diseased. And they've even done studies. There was a study in 2004 in biology letters. Just the greatest teen science mag out there.

Tiger beat and biological scientist.

So biology letters said that they did a study where they found the images of objects that held what was called a potential disease threat were rated as more disgusting. So this is just the idea that, again, because of evolution, we have trained ourselves to avoid somebody who looks sick.

Okay, now we get to another big chink in the armor, if you ask me. Where did we get the idea that a body caused disease and that you could become polluted by some weird magical transference of this disease by handling or coming in close contact with the body?

Like pre germ theory.

Pre germ theory. Germ theory is very new. It's about 150 years old, almost on the nose. We're talking about people's aversion to dead bodies and corpses for eons before that, hundreds of years, if not thousands and thousands of years. Right.

Well, maybe even more. What if someone just going back in the day, were people like, oh, that's great. Come here and give me some sugar.

Right.

Or were people always sort of repulsed by that?

Yeah, I don't know. And we don't know. We can't say. We can only go as far back as any historical references we can find. But you can make a pretty good case that an aversion to something like that or a dead body goes back much further than germ theory.

Yeah, that's weird.

So you come to that question, where did we get this idea? Where did we get this understanding, on a very basic, fundamental level that corpses are to be avoided? So much so that we are disgusted by them. And even if you're not disgusted, like, I want a wretch if I see a dead body in person, which you may be surprised, I think a lot of people would be very surprised that if they actually did see a dead body, they would probably wretch.

That depends on what's going on, the state it's in.

Yeah. If it's eviscerated or something like that. Or the smell, I think also, too, but the idea that there's something that is keeping you from avoiding it, whether it's the creeps, whether it's disgust, whether it's some form of aversion that is acting to put distance between you and the polluting entity, this dead body, where did that come from before germ theory? That's my big question that I haven't seen answered anywhere. Where did we get that again? Was it somebody handled the dead body and became directly sick from it? So obviously that even Tuktuk could say, yes, the dead body caused this. So we should steer clear of hanging out around dead bodies. Or was there some sort of awareness on a very basic level that we haven't figured out how to explain yet that kept generations and generations of humans relatively healthy before the advent of germ theory and our understanding of it.

It is a bit of a mind experiment.

It is.

Perhaps the very sound of someone very ill and hawking up phlegm. Sounds gross, right? But like you say though, before germ theory, before they knew that was sickness or that made someone sick, maybe people were like, I'll come in here and do that in my face. I love that sound.

Right?

But it just doesn't seem likely.

It's like ASMR to me.

I don't know, man. It's very hard to wrap your head around.

And also, if you remember in our great stink episode, right prior to germ theory, there was miasma theory, which was the smell of something directly polluted you and made you sick.

Well, it wasn't. Well, maybe that associated with it, but.

Even that it's like. So okay, what made you think that the smell. What makes you think that a dead body, which in and of itself isn't giving off any actual signals that it will make you sick if it's decayed enough and you interact with it. What about that made us associate sickness? A transference of sickness that transfers. It's an invisible, magical transference of pollution from the dead body to you, the person who's handling the dead body. That is significant and remarkable that we came up with that. That's what I think is just so fascinating about all this. Yeah.

And I think this thing about the contingencies plays in too, because, and it's funny, I have to admit when I read this, the word contingencies in my head, I was adding a letter or something and I kept saying it in my head as contingenesis. And I was like, what is that contingenesis? And finally I saw contingencies correctly. I was like, man, am I drunk. Like, what's going on? So anyway, there are contingenes that's like facetious.

I had that same.

Oh, really?

Facetious? Yeah.

What do you think it said or.

Sounded like Facetius or something like that. And I kept sounding it out and then finally I was like, oh, that's facetious.

Yeah. But you were probably like twelve and not a professional broadcaster.

Yeah. I think you had something in your eye that was all.

So these contingencies in humans, at any time there are many contingencies at work within us competing against each other. So if you go back to Tuktuk and Machmok. Machmok died, but let's say he did feel some disgust, but he was also hungry. So that's the competing contingenesis. And his desire to eat or not desire, his need to eat overcame his low level disgust of like, well, it doesn't taste great, but I have this other contingency that says I have to eat, so I'm going to eat this thing and he doesn't die.

Right.

Then it's a little more complicated.

It is more complicated. And if you step back and think about it evolutionarily, it would make way more sense for us to not maintain a sense of disgust and be able to eat like rancid meat and then instead learn, basically develop a gut biome that will kill any bacteria decay that could make us sick, so that we could have that many more things that are available for us to eat when we're hard up. That makes way more sense through natural selection and evolution than learning to not eat something.

And I think that's sort of the thing too, though. Like the winning contingency is ultimately going to be the one that makes you more fit for replication. Right?

Right. For cloning. Self cloning, but yes. So if you have more available food that you can gain energy from in the environment, that would make more sense to adapt to that rather than to adapt an aversion to a potential food source. Right. So that's one question. And then you can also kind of lay that right over sex as well too, right? So this explanation of why we might be averse, why we have competing contingencies for sex. Right. Like you want to be attracted to your mate because a person you find attractive is probably going to be a good match for you reproductive wise, right?

Especially if they smell good, right?

Yes. And then if you are trying to reproduce with somebody you're disgusted by, they might not be a good match. Reproductive wife. Evolutionarily, it makes sense. That's some mental gymnastics right there. To me, it makes more sense to just say, here's an example of evolution screwing us up, of natural selection screwing us up. We developed an ability to feel disgusted by sex because it reminds us that we're animals and so we're missing out on sex, or at least deriving pleasure from sex because we are possibly disgusted by the act of sex if we step back and think about it in the right way.

Right.

You see what I'm saying?

Sure.

So there's a lot of holes here, which is why I've got both of my six shooters. I'm about to start shooting in the air out of glee because it's been a while since we had an episode like this. Yeah.

Another thing that I found interesting, too, from this was just the mere reaction. Apparently, most people open their mouths, I keep mine shut. But regardless, we all have the disgust reaction. I guess if you don't, then you're probably a serial killer. Like, if you saw someone open up and smell like rotten meat and literally just kept this stone face, we're like, that smells really bad. They're clearly sociopaths.

Right. And that's what Rosen was saying. That's why disgust, it's the defining human characteristic because that person would seem non human in that sense. They'd be a robot, kind of.

Yeah, but. So if people make this like, that is the cue. You don't even need to smell the milk. If I walk in the kitchen and Emily pours some milk and it. Well, I was going to say I see it clump out of the thing, but that wouldn't count. Like, if I see Emily just smell the milk, she makes her disgust face. I don't need to smell it.

No, but why is it that there is a hundred percent chance that Emily, or anyone smelling. Yes. Who will say, smell this?

Yeah, I never.

No, that's okay. Thanks for the warning with the wrinkled nose and raised upper lip.

I know, but when you're married, it's like, no, seriously, I smelled it. Like, you have to smell it. No, I don't want to smell it.

I've suffered.

So that becomes like all of a sudden something that bonds communities together and cultures together even.

Right, okay, so this, then we get to the explanation or the moral explanation of disgust, of how seeing somebody involve in cheating or some sort of unfairness or racism or just something, some really antisocial, violating behavior that you experience. Disgust, at the very least, people say, use the word disgust, I'm disgusted, and make the face.

I mean, maybe it is the same mean.

That's what that one wonder machine study said and the other way that they backed it up. There's a really interesting article by Rosen, Jonathan Height, who actually was a contributor in our super stuff guide to happiness, if you remember, and then a guy named, oh, McCauley. What is Clark McCauley? They're kind of like this big three triad. In the study of disgust, they're known.

As the only three.

There's a couple others, but. Yeah, kind of. But in this paper, they basically say, okay, so you got the wonder machine evidence suggesting that our actual brain, the part of our brain responsible for experiencing disgust, is lighting up when somebody gives us an unfair offer of money. That's one thing. But also they go around the world and say that in Japan, in Spain, in Portugal, all over the world, whatever that society or language is, culture's word is for disgust. They routinely use it to describe things like the experience of seeing somebody hold poop up to their mouth and the experience of being treated unfairly or seeing somebody racist. So it's not just people in English misusing an english word disgust, which means actually bad taste in older Middle English, there is some sort of moral component to disgust.

It seems like, well, even the word distasteful is rooted in the word taste. And that's just a similar thing, too. Like behavior can be distasteful and rotten antelope can be distasteful.

Exactly.

Especially if he's a real jerk.

Right.

The other interesting thing about the work that Jonathan hate did was this, tying it to political ideology. Jeez, what is wrong with me today? I thought that was super interesting because they did research and they found that people who are more sensitive to disgust tend to be more socially conservative and that can be exploited. So when you go to a major news outlet that may be conservative, that is why you are more likely to see photos of unwashed or sick immigrants approaching the border and not like pictures of the handsomest, most fit immigrant approaching the border, because that will, at least according to this study, they have a higher, powerful, more powerful emotion of disgust.

Right. It's hijacking your ability to experience moral disgust because apparently it's really easy to come up and poke, to push a person's disgust buttons. And from what the study says is that this happens a lot, way more than we're cognizant of, and that if we can make ourselves cognizant of it, we could actually defend against it a little more.

Yeah, I mean, Fox News isn't going to put the guy that looks it. They're not going to put the guy that looks like Antonio Banderas in the immigrant caravan.

Hello.

You okay? As their front page lead, know it's going to be the person that's on the stretcher that's sick and dying, and that's going to cause this reaction of disgust. Like, look what happened.

They CGI flies, like, flying around the person. Can't you see Antonio Banderas walking up in the video and going, this wall is too sexy.

And then the other interesting thing about that whole study that he was doing, that hate was doing, was. They also found that people make harsher judgments when they are exposed to a disgusting stimulus. It usually was a smell. Like the smell of a 2d booty, a shot duck. And if you smell this flatulence, you would react more harshly toward, like, a photo of something right now that might disgust you just a little bit.

I want to know the methodology of this study pretty badly. Was it just one of those things where they just kind of suddenly the area between you and the researcher filled with a fart smell?

Well, where do you get the fart smell? Is there a synthetic?

I think there is. You probably, like, at some novelty joke shop, they picked up, like, a spinning bow tie while they got the canned fart, too, right?

They're like, thank you, here's your $10, and have a good day. And they shake their hand. There's a buzzer.

Right, exactly. They were talking about something like, what kind of a prison sentence would you. Oh, excuse me. What kind of a prison sentence would you give to somebody? And this fart smell just kind of comes up, but they're just not talking about it? I would guess that's how you would have to do it, right?

Dude, I had a stranger ask me the other night if I farted.

Oh, yeah? Had you?

No. I was at the Fleetwood Mac concert, standing in the beer line, and this guy in front of me turned around with his wife and fully just said, did you fart? And I went, nope. And I was like, I would tell you if I did.

Did he look to his wife and go, did you fart?

No. But then we got to talking, and I was like, guys, I hate to tell you. I said, I don't even smell anything, so I think you're looking in the wrong direction. And then he felt like I was a little drunk, so I didn't care. I was playing along. But then he felt, like, really bad and was over apologetic, and I was like, dude, if you're going to ask someone if they farted, don't then turn around and be weirdly ashamed of that.

Get all weepy.

Just own it.

So, yeah. Does the guy not know the whole he who smelt it dealt it idiom?

No. Maybe it was a first date and that was the deal. Maybe he did.

Yeah, he really played it off well. It sounds all right.

Should we take a break?

I think we should.

All right, I'm going to go fart in the hallway.

We'll be right back. Thank you for that, Chuck. We'll be right back.

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Hey, this is Dana Schwartz. You may know my voice from noble blood, Haley Wood, or stealing Superman. I'm hosting a new podcast, and we're calling it very special episodes.

One week, we'll be on the case with special agents from NASA as they crack down on black market moon rocks. H. Ross pro is on the other side, and he goes, hello, Joe, how can I help you? I said, Mr. Pro, what we need is $5 million to get back a moonrock.

Another week, we'll unravel a 90s Hollywood mystery.

It sounds like it should be the next season of true Detective or something. These canadian cops trying to solve this 25 year old mystery of who spiked the chowder on the Titanic set.

A very special episode is stranger than fiction. It's normal. People plop down in extraordinary circumstances. It's a story where you say, this should be a movie. Listen to very special episodes on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm Susie Esman.

And I am Jeff Garland.

Yes, you are. And we are the hosts of the history of Curb your enthusiasm podcast. We're going to watch every single episode. It's 122, including the pilot, and we're going to break them down.

By the way, most of these episodes I have not seen for 20 years.

Yeah, me too. We're going to have guest stars and people that are very important to the show, like Larry David.

I did once try and stop a woman who was about to get hit by a car. I screamed out, watch out. And she said, don't you tell me what to do.

And Cheryl Hines, why can't you just.

Lighten up and have of time?

And Richard Lewis, how am I going.

To tell him I'm going to leave now? Can you do it on the phone? Do you have to do it in person? What's not cable?

You have to go in and he's.

A human being, he's helped you.

And then we're going to have behind the scenes information. Tidbit.

Yes, Tidbit is a great word.

Anyway, we're both a wealth of knowledge about this show because we've been doing it for 23 years. So subscribe now and you could listen to the history of Kerber enthusiasm on iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you happen to get your podcasts.

All right, it's back. Chuck is back. Now. Everything's fine in here, and we are still talking about.

Let's.

Let's just kind of go over this real quick one more time. Okay. So we started out with this mechanism of distaste where we involuntarily spit something out that's gross, that occurs elsewhere in the animal kingdom. And then over time, we figured out how to create a new adaptation, a new behavior that is overlaid over that same brain circuitry where we spit something out. And we call that disgust. And it originally started out as an aversion to things like poop and vomit and that kind of stuff. And then that evolved even further because at some point, we said, we're better than animals, and I don't like to be reminded of an animal. And I guess that desire to not be reminded of an animal developed so much that it became overlaid over that disgust emotion that had hijacked the distaste emotion. And then at some point, finally, it reached the moral structure, and that hijacked the animal and the core and the distaste to where now just the idea of somebody behaving in a certain way can disgust us. And the whole thing that really kind of changed and made it human was the addition of imagination and symbolism to these ideas so that we didn't even have to taste or smell or see anything anymore.

Just thinking about this kind of stuff could disgust us. And that's where we're at in discussed research, and that's where we're at in the podcast, too, frankly.

Wow, that's a nice recap.

Thank you.

All right, so, culturally, it depends on where you are in the world and what you might be disgusted by. So while it is universal, it's not like every single thing is universal. People eat things in some parts of the world that other parts of the world might think are disgusting. And that, again, is a thing that basically says, I'm a part of this family, I'm a part of this culture, I'm a part of this group. The fact that I'll eat eyeballs right out of a fish, right out of a fish's head, just scoop it out and eat it.

Right.

I might think that's disgusting, but that's not necessarily like, taboos are not the same in cultures all over the world.

Yeah. Whether it's food, apparently, they think maybe even, well, cannibalism. Obviously, some cultures don't view incest as taboo as other cultures do. So some of the things that we would think would be universally disgusting aren't universally disgusting. And the whole idea of food too shows that you can learn to not find something disgusting or never find it disgusting at all because you were just raised in a culture that eats this food and values it, but to somebody else from outside of the culture, when they see that food, they are disgusted by it. So yeah, there's a lot of lack of universality in disgust that we might assume would be there that actually isn't.

Yeah, I mean, vegetarianism and veganism is a perfect example. Someone can eat meat until they're in their mid twenty s and then all of a sudden switch to veganism and a year later the mere sight of meat might disgust them. Whereas the year before they were chowing down on it.

Which I would guess that's just like you restructuring your brain circuitry basically, right?

Yeah, I think so, probably.

I mean, that would make sense, but so something that never disgusted you before can become genuinely disgusted or the other.

Way around, I imagine.

Well, yeah, I mean, you can learn to eat other cultures foods that you were disgusted by previously.

And I know people learn to vegan that eat meat now, right?

Yeah. You can also learn to eat broccoli over time.

Broccoli is good.

It's not, though.

It really is. Roast it in the oven. Delicious.

Okay, I will give you that. Roasted broccoli is okay, but if it's steamed or just like floppy in any way, shape or form, I've had bad experiences with it over the years.

It sounds like someone's overcooking your broccoli.

Not anymore, but yes, I think mom and dad used to overcook it quite a bit.

Yeah, I go for al dente when it comes to most vegetables.

Yeah, but roasted is good.

Mushy is a food quality that kind of disgusts me. So food preparation is important. I know we're just kind of kidding about the broccoli, but let's say an eggplant or a squash. If you cook that thing till it's really mushy, it's really gross to me. But I will totally eat an eggplant if it's nice and firm.

Yeah. Texture is enormous with it. It also affects taste too, which doesn't make any sense except for, like, it's part of the experience of it, right?

Yeah, but true disgust happens for me, I think. It's not just like, I don't prefer that, like, mushy food really grosses me out.

Well, there's something that Ed actually hit upon early on in this is that disgust is it goes around our conscious thought. Right. You're not this. This broccoli is not to my preference. It is way too floppy and mushy and I prefer to not have it in my mouth anymore. So. And you spit it out and it just falls back onto your plate instead, you put it in your mouth, especially if you're not expecting it to be mushy, and you start chewing it like you expect it to be good. Your reaction, without even thinking is going to be spit it out, probably. And you might not actually spit it out, but that will be your first reaction. And you might have to stop yourself, like bring your napkin up to your mouth or whatever. And that's one of the things that really kind of is a hallmark characteristic of disgust when it is experienced. It goes around our intellect and our conscious thought. It's a basic reaction. Yeah.

And it can also get out of hand as far as if the idea is that at its root we're trying to avoid disease and dying. We've all heard of cases, phobias, really, that developed in pathologies out of fear of germs or dirt or cleanliness. Anyone who's ever seen the great movie safe by Todd Haynes, that was a movie about that where this woman sort of slowly unwinds and eventually ends up in a community where everyone's obsessed with this kind of compulsive cleanliness.

Who's the woman?

It's Julianne Moore.

I haven't seen that yet. Is it pretty good?

It was great. I mean, it's a long time ago, so it's like in the early ninety s, I think.

Okay.

Like some of her earlier work. But that's just an example of how that can happen and how it can get out of hand until basically you have a compulsive disorder that may have started out of a legit, environmental, like, disgust reaction to disease.

Right? Yeah. Well, that's what they think is the basis of possibly all of it that has to do with disgust or like a drive to feel clean or to get rid of germs or to be afraid of germs, that kind of thing. That being indoctrinated into disgust went a little too far and your brain's disgust reaction just became too powerful. And now it has this kind of crippling effect on your life.

Yeah, but it can also, like, it's oddly, there are things that have nothing to do with disease and dying that have been kind of labeled as disgusting and ed points out. Acne is one of them. That might trigger a disgust reaction in some people. And it's really completely harmless.

It is, but it's playing upon in an inadvertent way our predisposition to be grossed out by things like a sore disease. Yeah, a sore, a pox, a pustule. It has nothing to do with that. It just kind of resembles it in the exact same way. People find slugs and snails disgusting, and they suggest that it's because they look like they're covered in mucus. Even though it's not actually mucus, it reminds us of mucus. So we're disgusted at the thought of touching one of those things. Same thing. They're not disease carriers, but they remind us of it. That's the key. Because disgust works hand in hand with human imagination.

I got Emily one of those poppet pals. Have you seen those?

No. What is it?

You know how she's pretty obsessed with zit popping and she doesn't watch? She's not one of those people who watches the stuff on. Yeah, but it's just like a personal thing. But I saw it on shark tank. There's this thing now, it's about the size of a bar of soap, but it's made out of silicon. It's kind of this squishy, rubber, rectangular bar. And you squirt this, like, I don't know what it's made of. It's almost like crisco or something. I think it's plant based. And you fill it up with that, and the top of it is covered with all these little dimple holes, and you pop them, and it comes snaking out just, like, the best pimple you've ever seen.

That's amazing. So I kept trying to imagine that this was going on the person's face. It's like, just basically like, here, keep busy with this. And leave my face alone.

Yeah, you just, like, whatever. You set it in your lap and just pop away.

That's really awesome.

Yeah, it was really satisfying for her too. I thought she might be like, no, this is not the same. But she was obsessed with it for.

That's awesome.

A couple of days.

Is there any great human thing that shark tank hasn't given us? I don't know. I can't think of one. Yumi has a thing for cauliflower ear, and she'll sometimes watch videos of cauliflower ear being drained. And it's like, I can't hang, man.

Did you ever date a wrestler?

No, not that I know of.

But she missed her chance, I guess, right?

She better have missed her chance.

By she comes in and she finds you, like on the carpet, rolling your ear on the floor. Isn't that how wrestlers get it?

I think they get it from like a trauma to the ear, like a punch to the ear, like impact of the ear. And then it swells up and then it turns into like scar tissue or just pussy infected edema.

Well, which is why they wear the ear covers.

Yes, well, that and to look cool.

Those do look kind of cool. Somehow it offsets the singlet.

It does.

Which is the least cool thing you can wear.

It's pretty uncool, I have to say. Sorry, wrestlers, but the entire rest of the world thinks that the singlets look uncool. It's not just us.

Oh, boy.

So let's talk about the discuss scale real quick. Do you have that?

Yeah. I didn't even look at this because I thought it might be fun if you just went through a few of those with me.

Okay, well, this is a great idea, Chuck.

Thinking it into a game.

Still innovating after eleven years. I'm so proud of us. So Paul Rosen and John Height and a couple of other people came up with the. Sorry. Clark McCauley. And Clark McCauley. I'm just going to say the third person, they came up with a discuss scale. Okay.

Yes.

So, Chuck, between zero and 40 being strongly disagree, and four being strongly agree, meaning it's very untrue or very true about you. Please indicate how much you agree with each of the following statements.

Or how true it is about between zero and what? Three.

Four.

Okay, 40.

Strongly disagree. It's very untrue about you. Four is strongly agree, very true about you. You might be willing. Sorry, I might be willing to try eating monkey meat under some circumstances.

Strongly disagree. Four.

That's a zero.

Okay. Zero.

It would bother me to be in a science class and to see a human hand preserved in a jar.

Obviously that would not bother me because when I saw the human head in a bucket, very famously, my reaction was, there's a human head.

Okay.

Whereas the person with me was really disgusted.

Right? Yeah. And I think understandably so. I love that story. Okay, here's another one. I never let any part of my body touch the toilet seat in public restrooms. Agree or disagree? Untrue or true?

I'm just going to ditch the numbers because it's confusing me.

Okay.

That doesn't really bother me that much. I know. That probably really disgust you.

Well, yeah. I just have to go to another place.

Oh, see, when I do that, I don't mind, man. I know that's gross probably, but whatever.

Okay, here's one more from this one. Then we're going to do another set. You ready? Okay. I would rather eat a piece of fruit than a piece of paper.

Well, yeah, I'd rather eat a piece of fruit. Okay.

I think that's just, like a baseline one that they use. So then between zero and four, rate these. Not disgusting at all. Or extremely disgusting. Just say one of those two. Okay. You see maggots on a piece of meat in an outdoor garbage pail.

Very disgusting.

I agree. Your friend's pet cat dies and you have to pick up the dead body with your bare hands.

Not disgusted, just sad.

Okay.

I mean, I've done that with all of my animals that have passed. I took care of the bodies.

Right. I think this leaves out that it was hit by a car and it's now part of the road, basically.

Yeah, that's a medium. Disgusting and sad.

Okay, yeah, well, yeah, sad. You're about to drink a glass of milk when you smell it as spoiled. And then in parentheses, weirdly enough, it says, because Emily just jammed it under your nose and said, smell this.

That's weird. Yeah, the smell of turned food grosses me out a lot.

Okay. While you're walking through a tunnel under a railroad track, you smell urine.

Yeah, I've been to New York enough times. It's not that big of a deal.

It still gets me, man. I think smelling urine is worse than smelling poop for some reason.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

Oh, interesting.

Okay, two more. You see a man with his intestines exposed after an accident.

Yeah. That's pretty high up.

Yeah, yeah, I think so, too. And then last, Chuck, you see someone put ketchup on vanilla ice cream and eat it.

Yeah. That's gross.

Okay.

Although it's interesting, though, when I thought about the body's entrails, I don't love it, but I can watch, like, a surgery. It's not my favorite thing, but I'm not fully disgusted. But if it's an accident, so it might be a contextual thing as well.

So one of the things that I experience when I see something in surgery, and I think, yeah, context definitely has a lot to do with it in that case, too. But if I see, like, a surgery, like, remember there used to be that tv network that was nothing but surgery.

You remember it?

It was in the late 80s, early ninety s, I think. But to see that, I'll get, like, faint. Right. And it's not necessarily the sight of blood. It's like the sight of viscera. I get a little faint and it never made sense to me.

It might be mirror neurons, I think.

Definitely is part of it, too. But I think also part of the disgust reaction is that your heart rate and blood pressure lower, which would explain why you start to feel faint. Like, I don't feel queasy or nauseated or like I'm going to wretch. I feel like I need to sit down for a second, which is, I guess, is still part of the disgust reaction. It just isn't the nausea version of it, but it's still revulsion, but a weird fainty version.

So in the med school sitcom that we star in, when they pull the sheet back, you start saying, I don't feel too good, guys, and we're like, yeah, you're so funny. And then all of a sudden you hit the deck.

I think the way I would play it is even more straightforward, where my eyes just go up in the back of my head and I fall backward in response to the sheet being pulled.

It's a good move.

I can't wait for that movie to come out.

Yeah.

You got anything else?

I don't think so.

I'd be surprised if you did. We've gone on for a good six, seven minutes beyond when we should have stopped.

I like that game aspect of that one. That was fun.

Oh, your score, by the way, indicates that you do experience disgust from time to time.

I'm not a serial killer.

No. I don't know if you guys heard or not. But Jerry also gave her answers as well.

That's right.

If you want to know more about disgust, you can just go look at some weird stuff on the Internet. It's out there for you. And since I said that it's time for listener mail.

I'm going to call this one of the many dyslexia emails we got. Those are really rolling in from people who have overcome dyslexia and adults living with dyslexia. So this one is from a fellow atlantean, Audrey Short. She says this. Hey, guys, I have dyslexia. And I was so happy to hear you talking about my learning disability. Diagnosed when I was about ten and went to the Shank school in Atlanta, which is specifically for children with dyslexia. In fact, she sent in a follow up email just to clarify that we learned how to read and write using a technique called horses. And Gillingham, when I left after the fourth grade, I could actually read more importantly, I loved to read and devoured every book I could get my hands on. While I graduated top of my class, I had to work twice as hard as my classmates to keep up with the required readings and homework. My peers seemed to think that my extra time I received for exams was the reason I did so well, not the countless hours and late nights I spent learning the material. While this bullying did affect me, did not discourage me from pursuing my education at college.

I attended Miami University in Ohio, graduating this May with a 3.99 GPA, biochemistry and physics.

Wow.

I plan to attend a PhD program at Harvard or UC Berkeley. I'm not saying this to brag, but to tell other children with dyslexia to keep trying. I know so many students are afraid to ask for extra time or accommodations because they don't want to be bullied or stand out. I'm proud of my dyslexia because it has forced me to learn how to stand up for my student rights. I've made it to where I am today by utilizing the tools given to me, like extra time, and I want to encourage all people with learning disabilities to seek help because you are intelligent and your unique perspective just might change your field entirely.

Nice. That was Audrey.

Audrey Short.

Great Audrey. That is great email. So that kind of replaces that whole like, look, this famous person made it. You can just tell people. Let me tell you about Audrey Short.

Yeah, agreed.

Okay. Way to go Audrey. That's fantastic. Congratulations early on. Graduating with a 3.99 man. That's impressive. And good luck in grad school too. If you want to get in touch with us like Audrey did, you can go on to stuff you should know.com and check out the social links there. You can also send us an email, send it off to stuffpodcast@housestuffworks.com.

Stuff you.

Should know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts my heart radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever.

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Hey, this is Dana Schwartz. You may know my voice from Noble Blood, Haleywood, or stealing Superman. I'm hosting a new podcast, and we're calling it very special episodes. A very special episode is stranger than fiction.

It sounds like it should be the next season of True Detectives, these canadian cops trying to solve this mystery of who spiked the chowder on the Titanic set.

Listen to very special episodes on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello, this is Susie Esman and Jeff Garland. I'm here, and we are the hosts of the history of curb your enthusiasm podcast. Now, we're going to be rewatching and talking about every single episode, and we're going to break it down and give behind the scenes knowledge that a lot of people don't know when. We're going to be joined by special guests, including Larry David and Cheryl Hines, Richard Lewis, Bob Odenkirk, and so many more. And we're going to have clips, and it's just going to be a lot of fun. So listen to the history of curb your enthusiasm on iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you happen to get your podcasts.