Zordon Scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences, listener discretion is advised.

Did you get a lot of rhetoric that we need to remember this? Did you choke more? No. Hello and welcome to Season seven, Episode 168 of Certain Scale, a show that reveals that the worst monsters, a real. OK, quick update about the pins and stickers one more time, sorry about that, but listen, we got a lot more demand than we ever expected, so we had to make more. We put in the order in the last week of last month and it takes a while for them to be made.

So as soon as they get here, we'll ship those out for the last batch of everybody that got in at the last minute, which I did tell you not to do, but thanks anyway. So please be patient. Once we do create the label to ship your perk, you will get an automated email and whatever email you use to sign up to plus. So make sure you check for that. Check your spam folder. You may want to add store at certain scale dotcom through your address book so that your emails from us won't be filtered.

But we expect everything to go out within the next week or two. You should get your perk by at the very latest, the end of August. Thank you. Once again, if you're a plus member, if you're not head on over to Soad and scale dotcom slash plus there's lots of perks beyond just the physical ones. You get store discounts, early commercial free releases and of course, plus seventy three episodes of that available to you. All new stories that you have not heard on the regular feed and we'll never hear sign up right now.

It starts at just five bucks a month and it really helps support the show. OK. With that said, here we go.

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The criminal justice system. It's a pretty elegant thing crafted over centuries of refinement, you know, some people don't even realize that our system of law and justice predates the birth of this country by centuries. When settlers came to America, they brought English common law with them.

And although there have been modifications and additions to that system, the basic structure remained things like precedent, which is the basic concept of relying on previously decided cases and using those established guidelines and traditions. If you've ever heard two lawyers argue, they'll say things like Miranda v. Arizona.

That's a reference to a prior already decided case that instructs the judge on how to rule on the case. Before that, it's up to the judge to weigh all the various arguments for a fair decision. And if there's clear precedent, then the judge will usually rely on that previous ruling. Otherwise, he may decide to go the opposite way and in doing so, create new law and set a new precedent that's often not the case. And doing so could lead to an appeal and a reversal from a higher court.

Anyway, this is starting to turn into a civics lesson, but it's funny just how many normal everyday citizens don't even know the basics of how our system of laws and justice works. It's really quite something. Even before the English modernized it in the 17th century, the roots of law date all the way back to Greek and Roman civilizations in ancient Greece. If you killed somebody, their family had the right to kill you. At the end of the 7th century B.C., a man named Draco, the first legislator of Athens, wrote a series of laws regarding intentional and unintentional homicide.

The punishment for most of these cases was death. That's where the term draconian laws comes from. It refers to the overly harsh, antiquated punishment for a crime. Thankfully, since then, we've made a lot of modifications to the law and our Constitution reflects society that puts the rights of the individual before the needs of the state. For example, that case I mentioned a minute ago, Miranda v. Arizona. Well, that's the case where the concept of Miranda rights originated.

We'll talk more about that later. But for now, all you need to know is that you should never talk to cops. They're not there to help you or be your friend. They're not looking out for your best interests when you're sitting in that hard, cold chair of their eight by eight foot interrogation room. Oh, and before you start constructing your angry emails, I don't care if your husband or father or best friend is a cop. I'm not saying all cops are bad.

So calm your outrage. I'm giving you good, solid life advice based on years of experience with cases like this. When you find yourself across from a cop who's asking you questions about a crime, the only thing they're trying to do at that point is to get you to slip up so they can put you in jail. That is, after all, their job putting criminals in jail. So if you did something, don't talk to cops. If you didn't do something, don't talk to cops.

Just say it with me, folks. Don't talk to cops, ask for a lawyer and follow their advice. Or you may find yourself in the same predicament that William Hurt did.

The police department did take a of them earlier this week. I want to get some information. I want to make sure we know who we're talking to. We do this all the time. Give me a first name before you get your legal first name. His middle name, Jeffrey. He's telling you why I sent her to Evansville, Indiana, is sometimes referred to as Kentucky.

And the Evansville metropolitan area includes counties in both Kentucky and Indiana. Google map. It's confusing. It is, however, a great example of gerrymandering. Evansville directly borders one section of the Ohio River in the summer of 2012, 18 year old William Hurt, an Evansville native, had just found himself in that cold, ugly interrogation room.

He was talking to Kentucky state police officers about his alleged involvement in a suspected murder. This was William's first mistake, talking to police.

OK, and there is I want to make sure you understand that, OK, you have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to talk to a lawyer and have him present where you are being questioned if you can afford to hire a lawyer or to be appointed representative before any questioning. If you wish, you can decide at any time to assert his rights, not answer any questions or making statements.

OK, would you sign here, show that I read that to you? Well, that's just stating that I read here your Miranda rights. OK, now you want to talk to me about this incident. Well, I got to know if you want to talk to me about my condolences. OK. Would you sign here, please?

The legal system, specifically criminal proceedings, is usually not a topic that is taught in public schools. Unfortunately, we don't have classes dedicated to the role of police officers, what they're allowed and not allowed to do.

We should, but we know more often than not, public school students remember having a course or a class or something taught to them by police officers. I'm talking about programs like Dare Pål Paths and Reality Tours. These are these types of things where they tell you stay in school, kids don't do drugs, cops are good and stuff. But who's supposed to teach us our rights? And the fact that those rights often include not playing into exactly what those officers want us to do, which is to talk to them.

Does the burden fall on parents to make sure their children know how to interact with law enforcement? Most adults don't even know their constitutional rights or how to exercise them. Sure, one of the roles of police officers is to respond to calls and protect and serve the public. The oath that future law enforcement officers recite upon their entrance into the profession has one section that states I will faithfully serve and protect my community while recognizing that policing is strong medicine and must be delivered at the right dosage, I will apply my craft accordingly, avoiding the dual temptation to over police or police neighborhoods and communities that need my help the most.

Another section says.

I will remember that my calling as a police officer is an honorable one, but should never set me apart from society or the community I serve. I have been granted authority and I am enjoined by duty, yet I am a member of the public and share the same obligation to comply with the laws I am sworn to uphold.

I wonder if that applies to the cops that run red lights or turn on their flashers so they could speed past a traffic jam.

But look, there's a huge emphasis placed on honor, integrity and honesty in the law enforcement profession. And we don't often think about the roles they play. When investigating crimes, honesty becomes far less important.

In fact, dishonesty is frequently and legally used to coerce suspects. We've got state police and highway patrol, uniformed local patrol officers, air marshals, sheriffs and detectives, among several other types of badged law enforcement officials.

They all have very different responsibilities and we interact with some of these types more than others. Most of us have dealt with local police officers and highway patrol, but many of us have never interacted with a detective. William Hurt certainly never had any experience with detectives until the fateful day he found himself in the hot seat when he agreed to answer their questions and sign away his rights. Let's rewind back to the clip you heard earlier.

Well, I got to know if you want to talk to me about my organises, OK, would you sign here, please?

What exactly was Williams signing? Well, he was literally signing over his rights, his Miranda rights, as we mentioned before, really listen closely to these.

We often hear the Miranda rights read to suspects in crime shows, but they're read so quickly that it goes in one ear and out the other. We don't stop to think about what they really mean and why they're there.

You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to talk to a lawyer and have him present with you while you are being questioned. If you cannot afford to hire a lawyer, one will be appointed to represent you before any questioning. If you wish, you can decide at any time to exercise these rights and not answer any questions or make any statements. Do you understand these rights?

I have explained to you having these rights in mind. Do you wish to talk to us now? Those Kentucky state police officers made it all seem so innocent, they said to him, hey, we just want to know if you'll talk to us. We just want to talk, that's all. The average person does not understand how deceitful police can and will be in situations like this one, unless you're a lawyer, a cop, the relative of a cop, or have been accused of a crime before and have hired a lawyer to help you.

You probably don't know how to deal with police if they call you in for questioning, as many defense attorneys will repeat until their voices are hoarse. The Fifth Amendment was always meant to help innocent people, and it often does when it's employed correctly. It can help guilty people, too, just in case you commit any of these crimes in the future. The IRS is, after all, always after us and pleading the fifth can help you when dealing with them to.

William Hurt was called in to talk to Kentucky state police in June of 2012 after a body was discovered on the Kentucky side of the Ohio River. The body belonged to a 54 year old man named Marcus Garlicky. Officers knew this because he had a letter from the Social Security Administration inside a plastic bag in his pocket addressed to him. Garlicky had been released from prison several days prior to his untimely passing. He had a long history with the system. He had been in and out of correctional facilities almost his whole adult life and struggled with a laundry list of mental illnesses, including paranoid schizophrenia.

He was homeless at the time of his death. He had just left his home in a prison cell and had rejoined society but was trying to get back on his feet. He hadn't found a place to live. He was staying with different people off and on, but he knew that he could always return to his foster sister, Debbie Herts house for a hot meal and good company. The final night that he was seen alive, Marcus Krolicki was at Debbie's home in Evansville having dinner.

Debbie went to bed and then see when or if he ever left the house when garlic's body was found.

A state medical examiner determined through an autopsy that he had injuries consistent with asphyxia by strangulation.

His autopsy also showed a fractured hyoid bone, which is the bone right under your tongue that starts at the top of your neck. He also had a fractured rib. This all made sense. It was clear to police that garlicky died of strangulation. This meant that his death was a homicide. Shortly after learning that Krolicki had last been seen at Debbie Herts house where four teenagers were living.

They called all the kids in for questioning. William Hurt, who was 18 years old at the time, became the focus of the investigation.

All right, we're going to go over again about that night, OK? All right. You're working the ground for us. And that was on Thursday. Yes. You think it was about the 16th? I think it was OK. So it was the 16th on Thursday, originally set on a Saturday. Actually originally told me on Thursday when I told you that the FBI told me that it was on Saturday. You agree? You just agreeing at that time?

Well, when my dad asked me when what day it was, I was half asleep. And you just think of me outside. As for Saturday, so we obviously make a mental note of this.

Here's the very first clear example of a pattern of behavior William engages in. It's not uncommon for people of his age or for people in general to tell someone what they want to hear just so they can be left alone. William's father asked him if he remembered what day Marcus Kalicki had been at his mother, Debbie's house. William was asleep at the time and his father had woken him up with the question. His dad fed him a date and asked him if that was the correct one.

William agreed so that his father would leave him alone and he could go back to sleep. He admits this fact regardless of the day.

That's the night Marcus Malachi was there. Yes. OK, tell me about your day that day. I know as I got a call, I got out, I was getting shower and I play games with a little bit around three fifteen. I want you to take a long day of us to work. And after that, we had a very it was a very long day. And when I had gotten home, you sit on my kitchen table. What time do you think you got home?

There was about thirty, eleven, thirty. And I think guess pretty long bus ride. We had to wait for the other buses and we'll leave it at forty five. You got to take everybody else now is the real important part. And I want you to be honest and not give any details. Tell me everything ok. Don't leave anything out. OK, go ahead. And when you got home, I got home. I walked in the morning sitting at my kitchen table.

He was reading a book in my cell and at the moment that one time that I was there and I was home. Then after that I sat down at the table and I was talking. And then after a while I said, You had to go to bed. Who? I was in the kitchen. It was me, Mark Hertling, the posting on Usenet for about ten minutes. Then it's back up again since I found out I really want everything from this is very important, OK, with every little detail, you come and visit your mom and mark in the kitchen.

Yes. At that time when you entered the door, who was in the kitchen? It was Steven, my little brother, my mom and Mark and Andre come in, sat down. Holly walked in. You something? Where did he come from? The living room.

William lived in a house with his mother, Debbie, his sisters Andrea and Deirdre, and a boy named Charlie Wade, a foster child who had moved into the house only recently.

He had walked in and then he passed out. Then he said, Mr. Brown, we're cleaning up a little bit and go to something them right now, his I.D., somebody said it is a drink. And then he walked out. Yeah. How long was he in the kitchen? Martin's OK. And then what happened after that? I mean, he gets talking. He was taken playing cards really fast. And then after a while, they not doing that.

They want to give a chess response about half an hour.

Whenever William refers to Marc, he's talking about his uncle, Marcus Krolicki.

And then after that, long sessions on the bed. And I was like right in the middle of the game. And Marc and his eyes are bad. He couldn't see the ball very well and the lighting and he just surrendered. And then I shook his hand and I started talking to him a little bit. And after about 20 minutes talking, he just said he is going to leave that day of this and told me the with more and then just brush with your mom.

There are witnesses now. She is that she told me about it. He sure she wasn't there when the container of coffee came out. Well, she and her colleagues who are records, you wanted specific details, OK, that's something you left out. But when you leave anything out there as diamonds, see Marc Gasol coffee. And then she was there on the counter and governance in Covington. They worked in. And then she said she said, you can have it again, and then after that we talked for a little bit and then sort of started around things that he was leaving.

I shook his hand again and tossed around and said, hey, go garnishes and walk out the back door, walk out the back door.

Yes, we all have preconceived ideas about the seat. We think we know the signs to look for when someone's lying. Saul Kassin, a distinguished professor of psychology at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York City and also at Williams College in Massachusetts, disagrees with these notions. He's been studying confessions and interrogation techniques since the 1980s. He was one of the first to look into the science behind false confessions, which remain somewhat of an enigma in criminal psychology to this day.

Dr. Carson has been cited in numerous publications all over the world, including the United States Supreme Court, and was interviewed for the Ken Burns documentary on the Central Park five. He often testifies in court as an expert witness on the topic of false confessions and has worked closely with the Innocence Project in the past. The list goes on and on when describing the impact this man had on the research of this topic.

The process of interrogation is best understood by going back over history and looking at the fact that there are a number of methods of interrogation by far and away. The most influential is called the Reid technique.

Dr. Carson has been a longstanding critic of the Reid technique. The technique is a method of interrogation developed in the 1950s by a psychologist and former police officer named John E. Reid.

It is in some ways the Bible of interrogation, the the smaller version of it. Most recent is published in 2013. It is the fifth edition, very influential. It was cited by the U.S. Supreme Court and Miranda. And basically it lays out a model, a set of conditions for interrogation. Three technique involves three phases and nine steps. Every bit of interrogation audio you've heard on this show was planned and most likely followed these processes. Any interaction you have with the detective has a purpose.

Trust me, they know what they're doing.

There's so much here that's important. It's important to know, for example, that interrogators are trained to believe they can become human lie detectors. We all think we can tell when somebody is lying. If I were to ask you by, I'm not going to do it because I don't have the time by a show of hands. How do you know when someone is lying? The most common thing that everybody in the audience will say is I can tell when people won't give me eye contact, when people won't look me in the eye.

It turns out research shows that the correlation between eye contact and deception is near zero. In fact, most of the cues that we rely on, whether it's posture, fidgeting, eye contact, changes in facial expression, most of the most of those cues are not diagnostic of deception. But detectives are trained to believe that they can use those cues to make good, accurate judgments at very high levels of accuracy. They cannot. And why that is so important is that that pre interrogation interview during which that judgment is made becomes a pivotal choice point in the life of a case, because on the basis of that judgment made, that suspect is either sent on to interrogation or sent home.

And I cannot tell you how many interrogators, detectives I've heard in giving talks I've heard say I can tell when somebody is lying to me. And when asked, aren't you concerned about the likelihood of getting a confession, given the very powerful techniques you're trained to use, aren't you concerned about taking a false confession from innocent people? I have lost count of the number of times. The answer I received is, well, no, because we don't interrogate innocent people here and all over the place.

You know, you're not telling it step by step for you on this stuff. I don't like doing OK. Right. And then after that, after I went to bed, instead of something that I had to set up a container that he was leaving, so I shouldn't have to walk down the stairs. OK, that's what I've seen of lawyers. Andrea, Andrea, she was a great leader. I don't know. And that's the last time you saw.

I saw.

I saw this in general.

We don't tend to remember days that were not significant to us unless something major happened. We don't remember those details. For William Hurt, this was just another night. If you're in a true crime, you like puzzles, you like solving puzzles, you might like a puzzle game called Best Friends. If your brain craves a challenge during this lockdown, give it a try. It's a fun and exciting puzzle adventure you can experience anytime, anywhere. You don't need Internet or Wi-Fi.

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Certainly some people are more vulnerable to giving false confessions than others, and I say that for a couple of different reasons. First, it's important to recognize, I think, that very often false confessions occur voluntarily. That is, somebody who has not committed the crime steps forward without police pressure, without police influence, and confesses to something they didn't do. There's a long history of cases just like that years ago called these voluntary false confessions. But then when it comes down to looking at vulnerability in the police interrogation setting, it is absolutely clear from the wrongful conviction data, from laboratory experiments, from self report studies that juveniles are particularly vulnerable.

They are disproportionately represented in the population of false confessors, that people with intellectual impairments, the mentally retarded, for example, are disproportionately represented in the population of false confessors. And people with various types of mental illness appear again in that in those numbers with with with large frequency. It is clear that whether because these populations are naive, whether they are suggestible, whether they are overly compliant, whatever that issue may be, it is clear that in the police interrogation setting, where influence is the issue, they are more subject to influence and manipulation than the average person.

William was 18, 18 years old, is barely an adult. He was living at home with his mom and sisters, working at an ice cream shop. He had no prior experience dealing with law enforcement and certainly never imagined himself sitting in an interrogation room. And yet there he was. First of all, he thought he wasn't allowed to leave. He thought that he had to sit there and talk with those officers, but he had already recounted the night for them.

They wanted more. His statements just weren't good enough. He left it to authorities, said you went to your bedroom at one o'clock. Yeah. Oh, but he was going to leave from there and start talking again 45 minutes later. He was right. And about 45 forty five fifteen walked out the back door and went down to the basement. And you went to bed the next hear nothing. Nothing at all. Do you have any kind of disabilities?

There are mental disabilities, not mental health. You might disagree. I didn't graduate because it will tell you why you get inconsistencies with some of the stories you tell you understand it. You to be straight with me this time.

William then went to tell them pretty much exactly the same story he had already told. There is the process of interrogation. They lay out a nine step process. It is all designed, I will say in a nutshell, without going into details, the process is designed to increase the anxiety associated with denial and to lower the anxiety associated with confession. Interrogation is designed specifically psychologically to make it easier to confess than to issue denials.

William kept trying over and over again to tell these officers what happened that night. He got home from work, had dinner and played a game of chess with his uncle Margolskee until Mark left a little before 1:00 a.m. and William went to bed early.

You said earlier Harley early door after he went to bed. You leave the house and stuff. All right. I'll be patient with you. It's time to tell it all. It's time to be honest. You understand? We know more than what you think. I you know. Yeah, I was feeling ghostwriting them even more, I think, because you had to protect us. What do you think we know? Oh, I think you know what happened to Mark.

And I think, you know, I don't know necessarily what happened. Not like, oh, what happened. I know something. I don't think he was there. And some of the stuff that he has done in the last week, that's about all I know. Still, you have not answered my question. You said in an earlier statement he heard Hartley's door shut after he went to bed. Yeah. True or not true. All right. I want to be happy when your room is to the truth.

You told me that the earlier recorded interview and we get that fact when I ask you that question, just not even five minutes ago. He said, yes, that's what happens. Who on earth remembers that kind of stuff on a boring day? I can't even remember what I ate. I'm not sure what I did two days ago, let alone what time I heard the door in the house shut a month ago.

So once you totally went this room, you're going to stick to that story that you never came out. From what I know. From what I remember, yes. How do you feel? Like you're involved in something really big here? Well, yes, I do feel like I'm involved because according to what you're saying, I'm in charge of the story by withholding information. But I don't know what the information is. I mean, I'm telling you everything I know.

It may be a different way of telling it in a different sequence.

But, Tony, all I know there are a number of processes of interrogation that are perfectly lawful, but that put innocent people at risk. I will single out a single and that is a single technique which is lying about evidence. When Marty Tankleff just turned 17 years old in Long Island, called police because he found his mother dead in a brutal in a brutal stabbing and his father gurgling blood and not conscious, he became the suspect. And as the suspect, he was interrogated, pulled away from his family, pulled alone and interrogated.

He was new, 17 years old and in a obviously in a state of shock of some sort. And he was repeatedly lied to about his evidence. He was repeatedly told that his hair was found in his mother's grasp, that his father regained consciousness and identified him as his assailant. Marty spent 17, 18 years in prison before all of this disappeared.

But it was those lies about evidence is what put him over the top.

Finally, very important and not quite realized factor innocent people bring with them a mental state, the mental state they bring to the interrogation room is their own innocence.

They waive their rights. When you ask an innocent person who had confessed afterward, why don't you get a lawyer? They look at you with an odd look and they say, I didn't need a lawyer.

I didn't do anything wrong. Innocent people believe in their innocence. They believe their innocence will prevail. That phenomenology makes them vulnerable in the interrogation room in ways that are hard to anticipate.

William knew that he was innocent. He figured that these detectives were professionals and they would soon see his point of view and understand that he had nothing to do with Marcus Garlock.

His death, the assumption that these detectives were honest and had noble intentions was a naive one the day that Marcus garlic's body was discovered on the banks of the Ohio River. Investigators immediately paid a visit to Garlick, his brother, to notify him of the discovery. His brother asked the officers, quote, Is it verified he was killed other than jumping off a bridge because he had been on that bridge three times before, threatening to kill himself? Garlicky, had been on suicide watch in prison, too.

While Garlick, his brother, was being given the bad news about the discovery of the body. Dubi heard Williams mother called the detectives and suggested that they interview Harley Wade. In case you forgot already, Harley was the foster boy who moved into Debbie's home just before Marcus College's death. Debbie suggested to police that Harley could have had something to do with his death if it was indeed a homicide because Harley had a tendency towards violence. Debbie recounted an incident that occurred right after Harley moved in.

She claimed that Harley had choked her until she almost passed out. No one in the house of nobody, nobody, nobody, not even him scared a Harley? No, not for this fellow is very strong. I know he's by my side and I thought as much as I can. I'm not scared of what might happen to me. I care about my brother. You care for me? Are you scared of going to me? I'm scared shitless because I'm getting your question about something that I even I don't remember myself.

I sort of saw them. I you that I'm totally different story and talked about the before he's locked up the videos and stuff like that is a priority for foster care is the guys we don't inside and don't talk to me about being there, being another by another facility. They talk about having Mark in any way, if you're talking about Mark Delbar and anybody. So not only is there no. Are and everything else. Well, from what I know is going to harm anybody around my house, he knows nothing about Craig and she knows that you're talking anybody, anything about a kid, anybody.

This is fighting itself. And what did you find out about it? He just loves to fight. He doesn't necessarily say anything about what he was supposed to tell people. They simpleminded people from voting. Yes, this perked up the ears of detectives, unfortunately for them. Sixteen year old Harley Wade was a ward of the state and could not be interrogated without an attorney present. This is presumably the main reason detectives set their sights on William Deirdra and Andrea Hurt.

They understand there's conflict here. I really understand you're saying that were Marcus and however, you know that our runners are not about to take a guess. I don't necessarily know. So long ago, you knew, as I know, there were Marcus. I said it could possibly be. I didn't say I knew for a fact, although it is valid to ask you anything else. You know, you said all and I was in town. So you said your exact statement.

I went on to this because I remember seeing that I remember seeing that notification about myself. Every single statement William made was met with hostility. All he was claiming here is that he remembered seeing a news notification pop up on his phone, probably something along the lines of body recovered from river. It may not have even been specifically referencing the Ohio River, but if you're familiar with the area or look at a map, it's a safe assumption. William remembered that as he read the news notification, he thought, wow, a bet.

That's my Uncle Marcus. These officers were claiming that they had never released information about where Marcus Garlick, his body was found and try to spin Williams statement around to make it seem like he couldn't have known garlic's body was discovered from the Ohio River unless he was the one who dumped the body there himself. And you might ask him yourself. I mean, I'm not the way it was important earlier. You know, I wasn't involved in who said you were involved.

OK, I talked to him. OK, OK. I'll start from the beginning. I'll give you exactly everything that I know. You're going to be the same story I've already heard. Yes, possibly a lot of sense. I want to know what happened to Marcus. I think at one time you cared about him. All right. And you do care about him. I need to find out what happened. We need to know when you know how much you're involved in this, when he knows you're the one HanTing.

I'm not the one that I know who did what. Why don't you leave something out? I don't know. I'm being serious. So the truth is, I don't know what to do after he left. I know he does this. William told the same story consistently for over an hour.

Despite the push back from the interrogating officers, they insisted he was lying there.

I will tell you, we don't go after people that are innocent, OK? We may for a while, but we get on the right track and they will go after the guilty people. The last thing I want to do is put somebody in jail that's innocent. All right. Understanding. Yes. I don't want to do that. That would go against all my beliefs, but I need to know what happened.

Whoa, let's rewind. But circle back to what Dr. Saul Kassin mentioned earlier.

And I cannot tell you how many interrogators, detectives I've heard in giving talks I've heard say I can tell when somebody is lying to me. And when asked, aren't you concerned about the likelihood of getting a confession, given the very powerful techniques you're trained to use, aren't you concerned about taking a false confession from innocent people? I have lost count of the number of times the answer I received as well. No, because we don't interrogate innocent people.

There it is. And the Kentucky State Police vocalized the quote almost verbatim during Williams interview.

Here's another example of how these officers fit right into the persona Dr. Carson described.

You don't know. I do not believe that there's anything else wrong. He's not smart enough to know someone I know at all when you lie. As a matter of fact, I know you had to bite your lip here. That statement just gave qualified your answers. It's it's not working for me, OK? He does belong in here.

I know it's important to know, for example, that interrogators are trained to believe they can become human lie detectors. We all think we can tell when somebody is lying. If it turns out research shows that the correlation between eye contact and deception is near zero. In fact, most of the cues that we rely on, whether it's posture, fidgeting, eye contact, changes in facial expression, most of the most of those cues are not diagnostic of deception, but the.

Detectives are trained to believe that they can use those cues to make good, accurate judgments at very high levels of accuracy.

You know, we have trouble telling the truth. Yes, but on site right now. I'm a real tough time. I want to believe it, but I just wish someone would. There's something I can tell. You can both tell. Well, we wouldn't have done it. I don't know, wish I would have interviewed you so long as you have seen how long it took me to interview everybody else in the car. You know, it's been a while.

Yeah, he's almost like 45 minutes, 30 or something like that in thirty five. Yeah. And, you know, we are here. Here's the deal. We need help. You are you on your own. Yes.

This is something everyone needs to remember. If you are being questioned by police about a crime, it's not because they intend to help you in any way. These officers must have been so confident that they had a guilty person in the hot seat that they escalated their interrogation techniques. They began to lie to William, telling them that they already had so much evidence on him that he'd be going away for a long time if he didn't confess.

So that's one of the things that police tell suspects they like to make vulnerable, scared people think they'll be allowed to go home if they just tell the truth about what happened.

They never tell you this outright, but they definitely suggest it. The problem here is that there's only one correct truth in the interrogation room admitting guilt right now we're trying to help you.

Not that you know what they were doing. You, you know, like me making you do all this other stuff, you know, but we wouldn't be in a second chance if we didn't want to. OK, I had an interview earlier than you was on. You put you in jail, OK? Yes. He was the last person saying, yes, I'm going to you know, something's happened to, you know, but I'm the last person I was on.

May be a suspect. Nothing in warrant to. You're saying I'd rather just sort of say, well, you know, you guys think I'm a suspect, has my hands swollen and on course financiers, or would you when you figure this out, you guys keep asking about my hand at the saying when you guys asked me the or the last week when the suspect. No, but your hands you came in other words, you have got my hand.

And I was there when you thought your suspect going to suspect it was that I did something to mark or helped in any way to possibly kill Mark KMEL. But are you in any way at that point? I thought I even broke down and cried at work because you guys came to this house.

What William was talking about is a previous visit from law enforcement to his place of employment. William was working a shift at the ice cream shop. When officers showed up asking him questions, they noticed that his hand had some scrapes on it and was a little swollen.

William quickly explained that he had punched a tree, which is what caused the swelling. And the scratches came from the exposed rods that came in contact with his hand regularly. When he was scooping ice cream for customers, his story seemed true. The existence of these rods was confirmed and they looked like they could cause similar damage as seen on Williams hand. Regardless, officers took photos of his hands for evidence that's unlikely.

I don't suspect to others that I really did not want out. And he was in there like, you don't really know what happened to your brother up on your.

You're all saying sound horribly wrong now, you're saying feel, oh, it's time for honesty, the gate. I know you guys are doing a very conservative or look at the markets right now if I need any need. I don't know.

Honestly, don't give us a lot of information, which usually is absolutely innocent person wouldn't do.

Do you see how they're trying to put words in his mouth so that they can then turn around and say, gotcha, only a guilty person would say something like that. You're the one who brought up the Ohio River. You were the one who suggested that Marcus Garlicky was killed.

I don't have to, but I don't to help him. I think, you know, you don't want me to know for your safety. I know it is part of and I know it is. If I wasn't here right now, I probably in jail, I realize because you said he didn't want to ring me. And he also said that I don't know what else happened after he left.

It's clear that these officers were taking full advantage of William's naivete when it comes to the criminal justice system. He didn't understand the roles of various types of law enforcement officials. He didn't understand words like warrant evidence or charges. He certainly didn't understand his own rights. And these officers used that to their advantage.

That's the thing. Why did you leave that night? Later that night? I did not leave it alone. I was sure in a positive way that I might finally be on camera at the store. Rather the real reason for right. Or we're under a lot more than a camera driving Natera are riding in a vehicle down the road. Right. I don't know how to label.

William really hadn't been in a vehicle driving down the road that night. This was a lie. They had no video footage of this alleged escapade because it did not happen.

There's no way. You know, I need to know by walking. No, possibly walking. Yes, but I'm not OK. That night is either that night or after that. I walked out of civilization and got a pack of our skull and he struggled with it. I said that night or the lies before or after. So I got carried on. And the night the murders is there, you went to bed after Markus's and then you left the house some hours ago maybe.

Yes. I'll be honest. I have a terrible, terrible memory when it comes time to terrible. I'm not once again, I'm honestly a little worried I was out because you know what you lied about this right now is, you know, I just you out on you want this and they're saying that you left and got our side of the road, but that's all you tell me. You said, are St. Marks or something like that know? Well, it may get Dorsett now.

I would want to just let you start. You know, I don't know whether not I was straight may not lie down, not right now, but almost sounds like you said it. And now you're saying I'm the one I went and got me into a back seat in the game. No, I honestly don't know if I did something. I do not know about it. Well, maybe you did something you don't know about it. You're talking about that.

Yes. So you go our markets not only you know about it. Oh, my gosh. You know what you're saying that he can do LaMarcus Aldridge playing around with him. Something could have done. They don't play around with them. I play the game of chess. We talk to last. Could you have done that? You don't need to do that right now. Apparently after a long night. Can you hurt Marcus Sunitinib? Could you are Marcus on accident?

Answer the question. Could you ever Marcus on accident. I go with the bad, have had a bad and we got our asses. Whatever have I mean when I go to bed I have, I've tried sleepwalking, but last time I went to bed he was down the street. I don't walk that says I have clubs like could you heard Marcus on accident then? I could have, but I know for a fact I didn't. If I go and take more and, you know, lift all the DNA off of him all over his body, clothes, everything else, where could I find your DNA on Mark?

On his hand, the back of the shirt and on the back of his hand. I don't find it anywhere else. No, I'm positive about that. Yes, I'm positive. I'm not gonna find your fingerprints anywhere. No, you realize that they don't live a long time. I realize it was outside on the wrong side of things, but that's it. I will tell you honestly what I believe. I did it. Something happened and it was an accident.

And I'm not going to sit here and say, you did it say an accident happened and then everybody freaked out and no one knew what to talk. OK, and about were you just trying to cover up for each other? If one of the first one to cracks is going to the lucky enough to circle in the cracks. Maybe I'll. The third one, I never hangover. I was dead and he was going to jail or they waited. You're never going to see a lot of jail that no one might might be lucky.

Right now, you're not number one. Something's happened to me. I know something. I know something about it. And you need to tell us because I'm telling you right now, Rhonda, you're 18 years old. You got your whole life ahead of you. If something is screwed up, someone's you know about it. You've done something of my hand, as always. You really don't know which I believe that by no means. By the way, if you've done something, I know about it.

And I'll tell you, it won't be the first person to come forward. In the United States, police are allowed to lie about evidence, police are allowed to turn to a suspect who has for hours denied any involvement and to say to that suspect, you've denied your involvement and yet we have your fingerprints on the murder weapon or we have the victim was in a struggle we have here in her grasp. We've done the test. The hair is yours or you've taken a polygraph test, a lie detector test, and you failed it, or you've been identified by a witness or we have your fingerprints or your blood or your DNA or what have you.

In these cases, we see a number of these cases where the suspect starts to get confused and disoriented and starts to question his or her own innocence. And often the conversation then turns to questions about memory and consciousness. And there are cases on record where suspects we now know are innocent, not only confessed and signed the confession, but they concluded and inferred that they must actually have committed this crime. The Kentucky state police investigators tasked with interviewing William Hurt had finally begun to wear him down.

This was after an hour of interrogation. There would be many, many more hours. These two particular officers grilled William for almost four hours in total after the first two hours in which William continued to repeat his story over and over again, exclaiming that he had nothing to do with the death of his uncle. The officers finally gave him a break. This break was intentional. Everything they do in the interrogation room is intentional. They make you sit there now during this break for 40 minutes, stewing in your own fear, anxiety and confusion.

When we leave this room, if we're still at this standstill, that's always a possibility. You don't have time to think about it. But we'll say, well, this is my apartment. Stuffy. It is real. Think real quick. So searching.

When they finally returned, Williams dug himself deeper into the grave that Kentucky State Police had already plotted out for him before his arrival in the interrogation room.

Nobody in the house. My dad and my sister or brother or anybody or in. When you're up against. It the only person that we know, we know. Don't go there, you all sit there and watch. What do you mean, other things and you're all still overstressing that? I can go back to L.A. now and you any good I to pay on time. If you can't control over. I really don't like driving in your car and you want to go and find your children and your children are right now go.

No harm done. So there you heard one juror on the button is on your show right now. You're going to out there saying that I'm not going to be. I don't have a lot of time in the studio in your car. You know what we want to hear? No, I hear that other stuff.

You know, we you know what we want to hear? Let me translate that for you. You know that we want you to corroborate what we think is true using the evidence we have fed you throughout this interrogation, we need you to make sure your facts are straight when you confess.

So it holds up in court and we can put you away. Make sure you confess and do it correctly. Listen closely to this next clip. There are a few phrases William repeats that are very important.

How do you know how started? And it was him, from what I'm hearing. Is that what we know for sure? Tell me that you care very much about the body language you're telling me.

William says things like, from what I'm getting, it's a good chance that it was. From what you're telling me, this is a clear indication that he is using information.

These officers are feeding him and is trying to tell them what they want to hear without admitting to a crime that he didn't commit. He is being backed into a corner. William was unable to continue telling the truth because these officers were not accepting anything, he said after hours upon hours of interrogation. And he adamantly resisted falsely confessing until he did it. These Kentucky state police officers finally broke him. And it wasn't just William that they coerced into confessing into this homicide.

Williams sister, Deirdra, confessed as well. During his confession, William claimed that he, his sisters, Andrea and Deirdre and his foster brother Harley, got into a vehicle after ending the chess game, William played with his uncle Marcus garlicky.

They drove along the road and saw garlicky walking. William explained that he stopped to talk to them. He then recounted that Harley got out and started laughing and joking around with Garlicky throughout the course of this part of the interview.

William doesn't give full sentences describing what happened. It's more like the investigators ask him, So when did you guys do X, Y, Z? And William gives short answers to appease them. At some point, William agreed that Harley got out of control for some reason and was sent into a fit of rage. He allegedly started punching, kicking and choking garlicky to encourage him.

No, no, no. So you raise your hand, you push more. He is the first person to get your hands on your head. You get a lot of going to remember that. You choke more before we know you hear from you through the use of your body language. If you may actually be ready to face it things once on every single detail. Just try to remember where you trying to really try to shut down some of were looking at your hands like this in the hand it is likely to encourage you to do more than once.

There have been five inches and so on. So I was just I was using Latif's measure and that's awesome. Okay. Oh, you are okay. Yes.

Well, I on the ground and it was like, okay, well, you know, William eventually admitted after a bit more prodding that he too had punched and kicked his uncle a few times alongside Harley, weighed the kids, then allegedly wrapped his body in bedsheets, put them in the van and subsequently dumped him in the Ohio River. The next set of questions is even more telling. Officers asked William where he and his siblings had beaten garlicky. Think back to an earlier clip we played where the investigators told William that they had enough evidence to put him away for a long time.

They lied to him and told him they had video footage of him. They referred specifically to a convenience store called Kangaroo Redefeat.

They put it on the run over the last three or four percent of what you said.

You had my face on video, Williams said. Interesting. These types of remarks are the hallmark of a coerced confession. Phrases like, quote, I'm drawing close together and quote, like you were saying, phrases like that show that William was quite literally pulling information. They had already been feeding him and inserting them into the answers of their questions. He was trying his best to guess the answers the officers were looking for.

William concluded his confession by telling officers that he, his sisters and Harley drove to the kangaroo convenience store with his debit card after dumping his body and bought some snacks. When he finished answering questions, William asked the investigator, Was I getting close to most of the facts of what actually happened? Was I close to it? The investigator replied, I don't know. Was you and left the room. There are many problems with William and Deirdre's confessions. Much of the story recounted can easily be fact checked, and the evidence doesn't align with the.

Fashions at all. Most importantly, there was no physical evidence on Marcus Colloquies body suggesting that he had been beaten. He had only one broken rib and a fractured hyoid bone in his neck, another obvious inconsistency relates to the debit card William claim they used to buy snacks at the kangaroo convenience store. Garlic's debit card had only eight cents in his account at the time. William claimed they used it. It could not have been used at the kangaroo. There was no evidence that it had been used at the kangaroo.

The man was homeless and jobless. He had just been released from prison. He had no money. One final critical inconsistency is the location where the body was found. If the body had been dumped near the plaza where William claimed he and his siblings tossed garlicky into the Ohio River, the body would have had to travel nearly six miles upstream in order to land where it was eventually found. So why on earth would William and his sisters confess to a crime they didn't commit?

Variations of this same situation happen more often than most of us would like to think they do. I have been investigating this topic for for many years now, and I find that people actually intuitively have a better grasp on why somebody might kill themselves and commit suicide than understand why somebody might confess to a crime they did not commit. You would think in terms of how common it is that it almost never happens. When I first got involved in the study of false confessions, it was my sense that I was studying a fascinating aspect of social influence, but not an aspect of social influence that was common.

The more I see and the more data that have come out, the more we come to realize that people often confess to crimes they did not commit. We know, for example, that if you look at the Innocence Project DNA exoneration cases, if you just take that sample alone, that number now is up over two hundred fifty. In roughly twenty five percent of those cases. False confessions were a contributing factor. It is common for people and it would be wrong for people to assume that only the weak and vulnerable confess to crimes they didn't commit.

It happens to people who are ordinary, smart, having mental health and adult. The reason it happens is now it gets down to a story about police interrogation tactics. Just as we mentioned before, officers trained in interrogation aim to make it extremely uncomfortable to not confess. They back their suspects into a corner and shut down any statement. That isn't what they want to hear. They know what they're looking for and will often consciously or subconsciously guide a suspect right into that desired story or statement.

They use threats, lies about evidence and other witnesses and say things like, you're going to feel so much better when you just tell us what we need to hear. You know, you did this there is this common belief that if somebody were to give a false confession, somehow it would be discernible. It would look different. It would sound different than a true confession. Not so. My colleagues and I several years ago went into a prison outside of Boston to do the following study.

We titled the study. I know a false confession. If I saw one, we had prisoners confess to the crimes they committed for which they were being incarcerated. And we taped their confessions and then we had them on the spot, make up a confession to something we knew they didn't do. We showed those tapes to people. We showed them to police detectives, experienced police detectives. We showed them to laypeople. People couldn't really tell the difference between the true confessions and the false.

And so it's not a wonder that judges and juries uncritically accept confessions whenever they hear them. It's virtually impossible to discern a false confession just by looking at it or just by listening to it. And that's why there are so many cases on record where there is on the one hand, for a judge and jury to see a confession. There is, on the other hand, DNA that excludes the defendant who had confessed. Invariably, confession trumps DNA. It's that powerful.

William Deirdra and Andrea Hurt, along with Harley Wade, were in deep trouble after William and Deirdre confessed. Deidre's confession took the same form as Williams. The process looked almost identical. She cried and denied any involvement. For hours upon hours, the officers accused her of lying. They threatened her, saying that if she didn't confess, they were positive she would get at least 20 to 50 years behind bars. She said similar things as her brother William.

Like, I don't know what I'm supposed to tell you. She tried to recant her story at the end of her interview and the officers stated, quote, Now you're starting to recant your story. So we're going to do is we're going to stop. We've got enough. We're just going to stop the interview, OK? Because now you're trying to recant your story, trying to add things to it. William and Deirdre, both adults at the time were arrested alongside 16 year old Andrea Hurt and 16 year old Harley Wade.

Andrea was held for one week before being released from custody and the charges were dropped against her. Criminal charges were not pursued against Harley Wade, the alleged aggressor in the confessions. Deirdre and William were both charged with murder. Deirdra stayed in prison for four months before the court granted a motion to suppress her confession. Charges against her were dropped. But for William, unfortunately, he got the shortest end of the stick. He was held in prison for eight months pending his murder trial.

When the case went to trial, the jury found him not guilty on every single count. The Hurt family is now filing a civil suit against the parties involved in the investigation of this case. It is set to go to trial in early 2021. Can you imagine being the one who was put through this accused of murder, manipulated into a confession and dragged through the criminal justice system? Because once you fall into that system and the machinery is buzzing and going, it's almost impossible to get out, William.

And it doesn't sound like this, but it's true. I was lucky. There are countless others like him who are not. So remember that next time you're face to face with a law enforcement officer, shut your mouth. No, you're rights and never talk to cops. That does it for this episode of Sword and Scale. Thank you for joining us. We hope you learn something this time and until next time. Stay safe. Hey, Mark, this is Matt from Australia.

I've got to tell you, man, I love the fact that you're keeping the show going even after all that crap from the mob a while back to love and the content. But keep it up to Mike. This is Debbie calling from northwest Ohio. And I just want to let you know I absolutely love your podcast. My daughter introduced me to it about two months ago.

And since then I have listened to all 165 episodes. I am going to have to become a cast member because I don't know what I'm going to do if I can't take you on my 10 mile walk every day and listen to the three episodes. Keep up the great work. I absolutely love it. Thanks so much. Bye bye. Hi.

Mike and her team. My name, Peyton Blackham from Philly. I love you guys. I love you guys all day at work. Such a great distraction, so entertaining and just so thrilling. Every story. Love you guys. Please keep it up. I just keep repeating stories and I'll be a listener for forever. I thank you all again, either sort of from a hardworking Canadian. I paid Home-building and listen to your show. My name is Justin.

And I got to say, the only thing that concerns me a little bit is the fact that you all keep not running out of material for the film. That's a bit of a shame. As much as I love the show, keep up the good work. You guys are the.