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Zordon Scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences, listener discretion is advised.


We are a con artist, you are a master, you are a devil in disguise, you are now forever exposed. Hello and welcome to Season seven, Episode 173 of sort and scale show that reveals that the worst monsters are real. Hey, now, how are you doing? People hate it when I do that. There go. Hey now. Hey, what's going on? Yeah, you know, whenever you complain that you don't like something, I do actually do it more.


So at the end of this episode, it's going to be jam packed with all of your calls praising the show. Some of you really hate that. If you want to call in and have your voice heard, that's the whole point of it. The number is nine five four eight eight nine six eight five four. Put a plus one. If you're international. The show is all about the listeners, the fans. So call in and leave your thoughts and we'll put it at the end of the show.


Just be succinct. Don't leave a S.A and help us annoy those people that complain about everything. It's fuck. And these days you got to have fun in life because the hell else is there to do. All right. Enjoy this one. I think the reason I'm so chipper right now is because this is going to be a heavy one. This this episode actually really bothered me in a lot of ways, so. Closed shop, here we go.


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We had gotten into a car chase that was for folks in the car myself, one of my best friends at the time, some girls in the backseat. And when the police pulled up behind and flicked the lights on, I said, I don't have a license. So we're going to run for Jack Wagner is a private citizen trying to make a positive difference in his community, trying to do some good on a daily basis. But that wasn't always the case and things could have easily gone in another direction.


So I drove the car to a local school yard. I knew because I had gone there as a middle school and I said, we're going to bail out the other side of this field. And three of us did bail out and run the fourth person. And they had obviously panicked and stayed in the car and were able to tell the police everything that happened, thankfully. So because all this changed my life, I should say. But I remember hearing what sounded like a firecracker, and then I heard the police officer say, Halt, Haltered, I'll shoot.


And I heard it again. While he's ashamed of what he and his friends did as teenagers, Jack admits the car chase came after participating in a slew of exciting but unlawful activities ranging from breaking into people's homes, taking radios from people's cars and stealing coins out of pinball machines.


That was probably a crime spree that resulted in about twenty seven. Twenty eight charges, grand larceny, breaking and entering a variety of crimes. The judge was, like I said, very lenient and I got probation.


As a 14 year old and a rebellious teenager in New Jersey, Jack appeared before a judge again at age 15, this time for driving under age and eluding police on the motorcycle he'd just purchased.


So this is the second time I'm seeing the judge and again, probation, some community hours. So I sold the motorcycle and thought, you know, I'll just sell drugs. That seems to be an easy way to make money.


But Jack's attempts to sell a pound of marijuana backfired after his mom found one hundred and fifty dollars in his wallet. And later the remains of his stash. She took the drugs directly to the police. Not an advisable thing to do.


There are better ways to discipline your children. But while still in tenth grade, Jack was once again placed in front of a judge where he was charged with possession, with intent to distribute, and entered a work release program where he would help clean up the city and talk with a therapist of sorts about his problems. That was way back in 1978. We did things a little differently back then. But just like the youth of today, kids rarely think about the consequences of their actions.


That kind of rebellious, stubborn attitude led to one more incident, and that was a keg party, which the police came along and broke up. It was out in the woods. And when the police showed up, my belligerence. Overtook me and I said, oh, look what the pigs are doing here or something to that effect. So that's all they needed. They quickly flogged me through some handcuffs on me and threw me in the back of the car.


But the charges that went along with that were drunk and disorderly, resisting arrest and assault and battery.


As I said, I had been in front of the juvenile judge in my home county no less than four times. And by the time I was 16, he just basically he really didn't have much choice. But, you know, I would say he was more than fair with me. Jack was sentenced to a very lenient six months to one year. But his brief time behind bars was an eye opening experience.


When I landed in the reception and correction facility, I remember some of the early experiences of, you know, you're you're you're stripped of your street clothes. You're given a shower and a haircut. And I remember one fellow who was cutting my hair. He was from, I think, North Jersey. As he explained to me, he was in for homicide.


Fifteen years, and he was pretty convinced it was a bum rap. I started to think long and hard about my own life at that point and say, here's a fellow who could probably easily take those scissors. And if he wanted to take my life, this is becoming quite serious. I don't think I want to go down this path anymore. I don't know how many people have that that opportunity of grace and mercy in their lives. But I certainly took up took advantage of it.


I met folks inside of the prison system who had recognized the error of their way and had said, you know, I made a mistake and I want to warn you, don't make this kind of mistake. Go start living a better life.


Now, I don't know how many people returned to prison back then, what the numbers were, the recidivism rates.


And yet I think the system was fair. Grace and mercy. Two words that are supposed to play a role in our criminal justice system, when you're caught committing a crime, you have to face your punishment. And while you're being punished, you have a choice to contemplate. Do you deflect and dig deeper or do you reflect on your actions and try to make a change? Making that choice does not come easily. People are stubborn and often no nothing but pain and disappointment.


But as a society, we also have a difficult decision. Do we accept that some criminals are capable of change or do we ignore those asking for forgiveness? Again, it's not an easy choice to make. Forgiveness, grace and mercy. Who is worthy of the sentiments? And what happens when the wrong person is forgiven? We'll get back to Jack Wagner's story. But to be absolutely clear, this story is in no way linked to the horrific case will also be unpacking.


But there is a duality that exists in trying to understand the way our world works and the way our criminal justice system works. A yin and yang, two sides of a coin, endlessly spinning, propelling into oblivion in order to appreciate the light, sometimes you have to endure the darkness and it certainly wouldn't be sword and scale. Without a little darkness, on July 14th, 1991, Gregory Green stabbed Punya Green, his 23 year old wife, 10 times in the left cheek, neck, chest and back.


She was pregnant about seven and a half months. The fetus died as well after the attack. Gregory called nine one one on himself and led detectives to the refrigerator where he had attempted to hide the steak knife it used as a murder weapon.


I was going, you know, we talked on the phone to Monica Johns and it was her cousin, Tonya Green, who Gregory Green murdered in 1991. Tonya's oldest daughter, Danielle, hid in a closet. Her youngest, Bridget, had cerebral palsy and was not injured. But Tonya was pregnant with Green's baby when he stabbed her to death the last day. We'll never know whether the baby tight enough to actually kill the baby. I hope you've never seen daylight again.


And in nineteen ninety two, Gregory Greene's own mother asked the judge for leniency in that murder case. She said, quote, I don't believe a long sentence will make him any better because he has suffered already and will continue to suffer for the rest of his life.


What happens when someone you know and love has been accused of a horrendous crime? Most of us will never have to experience this shocking moment, a moment where your entire universe is turned upside down.


But if you are close enough and if you feel strongly enough, you can write a letter to the judge at sentencing in the hopes of helping to spare a friend's life. One such letter, dated February 19th, 1992, reads, Dear Judge Edwards, I'm writing this letter on behalf of Gregory Green. I've been acquainted with this family for over 35 years and have remained very close to them throughout this time. The family has always been a very loving and close knit clan.


Gregory, as a child, was very kind, loving and easy going into his teens and adulthood. He was the same person. He was very respectful and mannerable. I can't remember him ever as being aggressive, rowdy or even raising his voice. That is why I felt compelled to write this letter. Another letter from the same household adds recollecting on the past. I remember a young man whose life was greatly influenced by a strong family upbringing. Much credit is do his parents.


They have instilled in him the essentials and values so many young men lacked. I recall a conversation with Greg, which will always have a lasting impression on me. He announced that he had turned his life over to Christ and was taking a wife who shared his belief and would share his life.


He spoke with such acuity that I wished the best life could offer him. I thought to myself if willpower and determination were the key to one's future.


Greg has unlimited success at his grasp. Other letters suggest Greg is not a threat to society by nature, not a bad individual in her request to ask the judge for leniency. Gregory Green's sister explains. He is the last of seven children. Quiet, gentle, sensitive person and one who knows that taking another life is not just against society's law, but also God's law. She concludes her letter saying, quote, Please find it in your heart not to take all.


My brother's life is not a bad person, and society would not be in jeopardy if he had a short sentence. Incarceration is not always the answer. Gregory Green pled no contest to a second degree murder and was sentenced to 15 to 25 years in prison. Let me say that one more time. Fifteen to twenty five years for a vicious double murder of a mother and her unborn child. But based on the state of Michigan's sentencing guidelines, justice was administered fairly.


Gregory Green heard what was apparently a fair prison sentence and then appealed it, arguing it violated the principle of proportionality, even though he swore under oath that he understood that his crimes could have carried a life prison term and that he entered his plea freely and voluntarily.


He now has. The gall to claim his attorneys told him he'd be getting a more lenient sentence than he'd received according to his appeal, his guilty plea was not freely and not voluntarily given because it was offered on a, quote, mistaken belief. Court documents from this time period in the mid 90s confirms that Gregory's application was denied, saying it is noted that the defendant's motion contains only vague allegations. The claims in his motion are contrary to what happened in open court, therefore they should be rejected as a basis for either reversal or an evidentiary hearing, end quote.


In other words, his original sentencing from March of nineteen ninety two was now reaffirmed in December of nineteen ninety four. And so, as we do with many cases that enter our criminal justice system, we've reached a moment of what feels like a reluctant compromise. Gregory Green will agree to serve no more than twenty five years for his crimes and will agree to let them back into civilized society once that time has passed.


Or even sooner, if he behaves himself at the end of a lot of true crime stories, we focus on how much time the criminal has to serve, but how often do we consider the significance of a minimum sentence? In many ways, it's a presumptive statement of how much time we assume it will take someone to be truly sorry for their actions.


But everyone's story is a little bit different here in Michigan, an inmate will serve every day of his minimum sentence and on average, a Michigan prisoner will spend, on average, 140 percent of their minimum sentence behind bars in Michigan. So that means, let's say someone was given a 10 year sentence, 10 to 20. They will serve every day of 10 years. There's no opportunity for that inmate if he's, you know, following all the rules of the institution, he's trying to better himself.


And he recognized, like I said, the error of his way.


There's nothing there's no provision. There's no upside for that behavior. And instead, he can probably look forward to, on average, spending 14 years on a 10 year sentence. I mean, if somebody really recognized that they've made a mistake and they want to turn that around and they start to move in that direction, let's say they follow all the rules of the institution. They do the work that's being asked of them to do. They look for opportunities to become better educated, either academically or vocationally.


Why not reward that and say, OK, you get it? I mean, let's face it, most every state has some kind of prison system that ends in the word corrections. Michigan Department of Corrections, New Jersey Department of Corrections. So if they're trying to correct inmates and the inmates are responding and being corrected, why not reward that? I also think it would go well then for those corrections officers and those that have to deal with the population.


If you give hope to people, they will respond. But if you make things hopeless, I think you're going to have a less content population to deal with, which means probably a harder time for the staff and the officers who work daily with those folks.


The system, which at its core is designed to help people, has shifted in a way that hurts people. On the other hand, part of the reason that shift has happened is because there are people who hurt the system, people like Gregory Green, for example, who have mastered another form of manipulation because the threat of two decades behind bars is not the end of his story, but merely the beginning.


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You know, we don't often quote the Bible here on certain scale, but in this particular case, this passage seems fitting, that which have been is now that which is to be hath already been or translated roughly for you sci fi nerds out there.


All of this has happened before and all of this will happen again. The cyclical nature of life and death is something we marvel at as humans.


The supposed end of something, often meeting with some new beginning to something else. Jack Wagner experienced this cosmic repetition in some form as well. By his 18th birthday, he'd finished his high school education and went on to graduate college with a degree in electrical engineering.


I didn't look back. I wasn't involved in drugs any longer. I was focused on my education. I met the love of my life and married her in nineteen eighty six.


We had six children. And so over the years I didn't pay any attention to the criminal justice system and what was happening because it didn't affect me. Or so I was to believe up until recently when one of my children married someone and that person got tangled up with this justice system. So fast forward, I won't speak too much on that case other than to tell you I assumed things would go kind of the way they did for me. I had seen the juvenile judge no less than four times, but the judge was patient, the judge was tolerant and he listened.


And he actually made wise judgments, which is what you would hope for a judge.


So I expected that same kind of treatment out of the justice system today. Well, the justice system today doesn't resemble in any way the justice system of 40 plus years ago. And so, Jack, formerly from New Jersey, now a resident of the state of Michigan, learned of a ballot initiative called the Michigan Prisoner Rehabilitation Credit Act. And this was something that I became aware of, I'd say early twenty twenty, maybe late, twenty nineteen.


And it was an effort to try and restore essentially a credit system of time off for prisoners serving time in Michigan prisons.


Time off for good behavior, because much to my surprise, I've learned Michigan is just one of a handful of states in the whole country that does not have any kind of system in place to give credits to those inmates who are trying to, you know, rehabilitate, meaning they've they've recognized in their they recognize the error of their way.


And they're trying to to turn around and learn from their mistakes. Like all of us, we know education is a key to success. I can testify to that. Education made a big difference in my life. So you give the folks who have made a mistake a chance to turn that around.


Obviously, not every individual is going to raise their hand and say, I want to go to college, but let's talk about those that do that percentage of the population. If we give the opportunity to those folks and they demonstrate that they want to take the advantage of that, I think we have seen a great degree of success. I can't give you numbers, but I know that it improves the odds of success for those that come out and are reintegrated into society for them to go ahead and actually be contributing members of society.


Let me interrupt myself and say this doesn't short circuit the parole process, meaning, you know, every prisoner would have to come before the parole board and the parole board would have to make a decision whether or not they're going to release someone.


Let's return now to the story of Gregory Green, who in his first decade behind bars, appeared before a parole board on four different occasions, twice in 2004 and twice in two thousand six during these years. He had completed the institution's cognitive programming course and shown generally good behavior, only having one ticket for fighting over the use of a TV. Despite all of this, each time he was denied release for various reasons, mostly stemming from the notion that Gregory seemed to show no remorse for the crime he had committed.


Clearly appealing to the parole board would not be enough to get him out of prison before he would reach the end of his sentence. Gregory now had to appeal to a higher power. Enter Apostle Fred. Harris, a civil rights activist and champion for the downtrodden since the 1960s, I desire has never been to be a pastor.


My desire has always been to set up a program of residential living program for man in the same mess I had been through. And if God can hear me and change me, he can heal and change anybody. Because my motto in the world was, I'm going to shoot dope till I die. I don't care who knows it, and I'm going to sleep with as many women as that was my motto. And so that wasn't about very much, you know.


So if he could change me and give me some substance, you know, that I want to be a flag or whatever I need to be to get the attention of other men and women, too. But my desire really has been all these years is to use the church to build up an army of men and women that we can begin to then take in healing around the world, as well as utilizing these centers for men to stabilize and help them to get occupations or whatever, where they can make a decent amount of money to take care of their families, the way families need to be taken care, become self-employed, whatever it takes.


Based on letters that Pastor Harris sent over to the parole board, Gregory was a member of his church prior to his arrest. Pastor Harris wrote, Over the years, we and some of our members have communicated with Gregory.


Our ministry deals with correcting behavior problems by understanding their origin, how we have been affected by them and what we must do to change them. The process is called inner healing and deliverance. With this technique in mind, while interacting with Gregory, I've noticed a great deal of growth. If he has to be released, he would be welcomed as part of our church community and whatever we could do to help him adjust, we would. With support from Pastor Harris.


Coupled with the completion of educational and psychological programs within the prison, Gregory appeared before a parole board once again in 2008. Decisions to release a prisoner are handled by a three member panel, but if the first two votes are the same, then the third vote is never cast. And on February 8th, 2008, after 16 years served and two votes cast for release, a parole board report stated, quote, Reasonable assurance exists that the prisoner will not become a menace to society or the public safety, end quote.


The same report states Gregoris release date just a couple of months later in April of 2008, Pastor Harris, who traveled as far as Ghana in Africa to spread the gospel, was a man of his word, not only by accepting Gregory Green back into his church, but also by embracing him as a new son.


Just two years after his release from prison, Gregory Green became married to the pastor's daughter, now named Faith Harris Green pastor Harris believed with his whole heart that everyone could be healed inwardly if only they accepted Jesus into their heart.


And now his new son in law was on the path to proving just that a formerly murderous man now embracing the word of God and driven by a higher purpose.


Then again, maybe sometimes we only see the things we want to see. Gregory, what's going on?


Yes, I feel some people in my family I want to tell me what happened. I just want to turn myself and I'm not going to blind eye to my life. And I deserve that. OK, you know, my children, too much trouble and terminal cancer. The two daughters, who is this is the return to six years old in October, October 28. They just had a birthday each and every time for this month. I and my wife is thanks to her.


I did what I did, what I did, and then my my my choose their kids, you know? And I was only he's 19. I think there's a 16 year old girl both. The only one is alive at the moment.


Their mother, this nine one one call was recorded at approximately one thirty a.m. on September 21st. Twenty sixteen, eight and a half. Four years since Gregory's release from prison and 25 years since he murdered his first wife and unborn child. And just like he had back in 1991, now in 2016, Gregory used his freshly blood soaked hands to call authorities on himself and confess to his crimes.


OK, I'm going to keep your mind till I get there so there's not a problem, OK? Now, I just want to say time myself. Yeah, no, no, I understand. I understand. That's probably the best thing to do. There was nothing else to do. I mean, I can't I really want to kill myself, you know. I don't know. I just that it seemed like there was a lot of girls in Afghanistan.


You know, I know my babies went to heaven. I know it's not like that. I took them, you know, that I sent them there. But I. I knew I was going to do what I had to do because my wife says she's a piece of work. Right. Right. She said a force. And she she kept pushing the issue. And I tried to tell them to right. Right in the house. And she went on arguing, it's always best to leave the house.


I tried to have this house and this is my house, you say, but I didn't tell her to come back. Right. She had to leave it there. If you want to put our children through all this stuff, my girls and I'm not going to do here. No, they don't deserve that. And I'm not about to let them suffer. Please. I'm here at somebody else's mercy and really being in prison wondering and worrying about them.


You know, I don't think they're alive. I know I can try to move over to try to change it, kind of to downplay the part of me. Couldn't you know, you're doing the best thing you can right now. And I just lost out. What was I like that now? I went there. I couldn't turn back, you know what I mean?


Gregory waits outside on the front porch of his house for police to arrive in his Nike track pants, gray shirt and black fitted cap. It's quiet on the line for a moment, Gregory, no doubt wondering how he put himself in this same position yet again. All of this has happened before and all of this will happen again.


I believe I knew I was going to be accused of some terrible thing and I didn't deserve this again because I can go to prison. Once I came back out killing my wife, you come back. It's not to try to make a life, a new life, to get a new start, you know, but I don't get that first year like I wanted to. And sure, my loving wife, mother seemed person and pushing me. She said, no, not the mention, especially my husband like that.


You know, right now, I just I just wanted to go. I can't turn around. I sorry. No, I can't. I can't in that, you know.


So Malcolm amalgamation we are hip and Annapolis in Dearborn Heights. And I can tell you police are standing outside in the front lawn of this home. They tell us they cannot get into the home just yet. They are still waiting on a search warrant. But they did tell us they were called out here at about 120 this morning by a man who told dispatch he had just killed his entire family. When the police got out here, they tell us this man was on the front porch waiting for them and he was arrested.


So once inside, police tell us they found two teenagers dead inside this home. We know a woman and her two other children were taken to the hospital. With both of them were all three of them were injured. But police chief tells us both of those children have since died at the hospital. We know one may be as young as four years old. That woman is listed in critical condition with a gunshot wound to the foot and deep cuts to her face.


Both Harris Green had tried to get away from her husband, Gregory, in the years leading up to the tragedy she was now struggling to live through.


Three years into their marriage, Faith had applied for a personal protection order against her husband, saying Gregory had threatened her and things would get ugly if she didn't leave her home. He was belligerent, kicking things, including the couch where their newborn baby was sleeping. Her report was denied because of insufficient allegations, including the fact that police had not been called to the home within the past three months.


We all know what happens when police are called to a home for domestic violence and then leave.


Faith filed for divorce later in 2013, but no action was taken after the filing and the case was dismissed. She filed again in August of 2016 and the paperwork was delivered to Gregory the day before he decimated their entire family. Previously, there were four children living in the house on HYP Street in Dearborn Heights, Michigan. Chatigny and Carra were teenagers. Beth's kids from a past marriage, Coye and Kaili, were the biological children of Gregory and Faith conceived during the course of their troubled six year marriage.


After their funeral, Faith's first husband speaks before a crowded church, devastated to have four coffins behind him. I just want to say that.


I'll get my answer. We had some. You know, I love everyone, so you know that the market is almost matter of fact, noting there were no more powerful individuals.


Like many grieving from the loss, he was shocked to learn the person who killed his two teenage children had been released from prison after murdering a previous pregnant wife. It was like fate punishing you for someone else's horrible deja vu. You did nothing wrong. A Happy Birthday banner remained for a time on the family's outdoor carport.


There had recently been a birthday party there for four year old Caylee. It was an outdoor space where the neighbors were used to seeing the kids play. Only now it had become a crime scene with a golden beige Nissan sedan parked in the driveway, something they were not used to seeing while Faith Harris Green, the mother of all four children, slowly recovered from the physical wounds she sustained in the attack. Friends and neighbors struggled to grasp how four young lives could be taken away so suddenly.


The mayor calls the event a super tragedy. And the news reported that all of the first responders were visiting with counselors after seeing what they had seen. But it wasn't until five months later that the public would learn exactly what occurred in what seemed like any other ordinary home. Every six seconds, there's a break in in this country with simply safe home security, you can protect your whole home around the clock. It's serious, lasting protection, and all it takes is a simple 30 minute set up.


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Gregory Greene's murder relapse is one of the most chilling examples of what can happen when our criminal justice system doesn't work the way we think it should, it seems to solidify the notion that once you're a criminal, you'll always be a criminal. But these ultra violent attacks not only devastate the immediate family and communities they occur in, but also add fuel to fires that are sadly still burning in major cities all across the country, society in general, who maybe they personally haven't been affected by the criminal justice system.


And I pray and hope that they never will be. But like me, if they're sitting back thinking that everybody who has gotten tangled up in the criminal justice system probably did something to deserve it, I was terribly wrong. I've watched how this thing works today and you can get easily tangled up in a system that just doesn't let you go. You need to be balanced and see this from both sides. I think there are people out there that would say, oh, just let them rot, just let them rot in jail.


And I say to myself, hmm, I suppose you've never done anything wrong yourself.


I just I'm amazed at how some people can have such hard hearts. I have met people when asking for signatures who I did not realize what kind of a flashpoint the whole discussion would lead to. And when I stopped and listen to some of the stories that people would tell me, well, it turns out that they had been personally affected in a very horrifying way by crime.


And so they're hurt. They're angry. They're they're looking for some form of justice, too.


And I think we all are we don't want to say we'll throw the justice system away and let everybody get away with everything. On the other hand, I get it. You do want to see some consequence for committing crime. And so it's a discussion, I think it's a national discussion, and I think we're starting to see it take form even on the streets of America today before Gregory Green's plea hearing in February of twenty seventeen.


Many were speculating that he may try to use the insanity defense, which was also the case back in nineteen ninety two in the 1990s. The prosecutors ultimately agreed to a no contest plea, meaning Gregory was technically guilty in the eyes of the law. But he didn't actually admit to any of the guilt. Kind of a dick move, if you ask me. But for his second set of murders, no priest letters assuring the judge of Gregory's good intentions would be written.


Certainly not from apostle Fred Harris, now ailing after his son in law and brother in Christ murdered his four precious grandchildren. Handcuffed and seated in a buttoned up forest green jumpsuit, Gregory visibly wept as the charges against him were read out loud. Following that, he gave a brief personal testimony as the judge attempted to pry critical details about his vicious crimes force that took the life of a grand jury.


OK, you're just going to sound like I actually put you in the latter category, considering Adam and Jamie here is our director, and it's right to it entire life. How did you say to your wife, sir? Well, my two girls and her parents are married. You indicated by Carolyn outside of my shop. Is that correct, sir? Yes.


Later, an attorney reveals the most troubling facts that make up this horrible case on September 21st, 2016, at the location of forty four thirty one here in the city of Dearborn Heights, county of Wayne state of Michigan.


Did you at that time place your daughter, Caylee Anthony Green in a motor vehicle in the garage at the street address? Yes.


And at that time, had you done something to that motor vehicle so that the exhaust from that motor vehicle would be rather than being pumped into the other side of the being pumped into the interior of the car where your two daughters were?




While the exact timeline of the many disgusting acts that took place that night is not exactly clear, it is clear that Gregory Green spent time planning in advance what he would do a week before that night in September, Gregory shopped at a Home Depot where he purchased the piping used to modify the car's exhaust system. As toxic fumes of carbon monoxide were directed through the passenger compartment, the two toddlers slowly drifted away into a quiet death.


Later, police theorized it was Gregory who placed their lifeless bodies back in their beds. Remember, Caylee and Coy were the babies in the family, his biological children, with his now ex-wife, Faith. He suspected that she was cheating on him and he was going to make her suffer in every way imaginable.


Gregory attacked Faith with a box cutter, deeply slashing both sides of her face before shooting her in the foot, gagging her and binding her wrists with duct tape and zip ties in the basement of their home. His two teenage stepchildren, Cara and Chatenay, were there to their limbs bound together before they were shot multiple times execution style for their mother to witness.


Was she present at the location at the time that you shot Cara Allen and John Allen? Did you shoot those children in front of their mother? Must the green in addition to doing that, did you also shoot Miss Green in the air? And did you also come his green multiple times on her face with a sharp object?


I believe the average length of time that a prisoner is spending behind Michigan bars in Michigan prisons is increasing and it has grown over the decades rather than the opposite. Right.


And from what I've heard, that isn't necessarily due to more violent crimes or more crimes, but more changes to sentencing laws and the way we we view certain crimes and how much time we assign as punishment for those crimes.


Mandatory minimum sentences are something that I think has come into vogue over the years. And then the ability to actually have your case heard, you know, your Sixth Amendment right to a trial is vanishing.


And the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers have put together a great report. It was released, I think, in twenty eighteen, which talks about this problem.


Now I'm going to guesstimate the rate of plea deals back in the 70s. I think the numbers were maybe in the order of 20 percent ish. However, today, I'm pretty sure these numbers stand, you know, at the state level and the federal level. These numbers vary somewhere between 94 to 97 percent. In the federal cases are they end in a plea deal. They don't go to trial. So if you think about how law and order, criminal intent and all those shows work SUV.


You always see him in a courtroom case, the show starts with a crime, it ends in a courtroom. Not so you'd have to. I have to you'd have to watch 100 episodes before you saw three trials occur. In reality, it shifts the discussion and it puts all the power really into the prosecutor's seat. Who can choose what to charge people with how many charges and then what should the negotiations be? Should we should we settle for look, I'll throw these three charges out and I'll leave these other ones.


But now, instead of looking at 25 years, you're going to only be looking at 10 years.


We're no longer talking about the facts of the case. Now we're talking about the bargaining process. So the justice system has essentially morphed into the plea bargain system and who's in charge of the plea bargains? It's not the judge. The judge is there to basically approve the deal, so to speak. Once the plea bargaining is done, the two parties come before the judge in the courtroom and they're asked some perfunctory questions and they answer and the deal is done.


It was already decided before they walked into the courtroom back in the courtroom that Gregory Green's sentencing, the scars on Faith Green's face follow her jaw line, extending from her ear to her chin on both sides of her face. She's exchanged her black funeral garbs for a white turtleneck. And she speaks with an elegance and confidence you would not expect from someone who has suffered so much.


I'm not happy. I'm not satisfied with the outcome. There's no punishment that fits the crime. Not even torture and death would be justice. Your justice will come when you burn in hell for all eternity for murdering four innocent children, all because you're insecure as a man, plus the other two lives you took. You are a con artist. You are a monster. You are a devil in disguise. You are now forever expose.


Faith goes on to honor her children. Nineteen year old Chatenay, who was a talented digital media artist and had dreams of becoming a Hollywood producer, 17 year old Kara, who was in the process of filling out college applications and wanted to become an OBGYN, five year old Coy who loved arts and crafts and four year old Caylee. It would paint her own fingernails and carry a purse filled with hand sanitizer and lip gloss, all of them respectful, loving people who were taught by their mother to volunteer but will never be able to share their gifts with the world.


I always encourage them and told them that they can do anything they put their minds to do. Those are the lies that you took. You tried to separate them from each other. They are siblings who loved each other and spent time with one another trying to split them up. Didn't work. They are together more than ever. Changing here are still watching over the Little Sisters killing Caylee forever. I carry each one of them in my home for nine months and raise them nothing.


Are no one sure as hell not you can break me or break my bond with. Gregory sits with his back, turned to faith during her statements, and also shows little emotion when he speaks on his own behalf before sentencing is delivered this Wednesday.


Well, I'll he just to regret. I'm sorry to let you know I got very comfortable. Help me. It was for me. And no matter what the whole town. Got to be dedicated to the whole family, says the guy who murdered his own twice. While he talks about God's continued plan for him, you can hear the family and friends of the victims squirming in their seats with disgust.


I have to be humble, very humble guy has a hard time figuring out how sorry I am. And even now, after all of this, you still like and I'm not giving that up for this guy. Guys, guys, you know, there's not one day that goes by. And I don't think of my girls hope that one day and there's nothing I can pass and pray that God would care. I feel bad for how this deeply impacted everyone.


May God help me. Help us all.


The judge quickly retorts, speaking with a ferocity and wisdom that Faith's father, apostle Fred Harris, would appreciate in the events following his grandchildren's murder by the man he helped release. The pastor suffered a stroke. Thankfully, he has since recovered the mystery of all the tragic cases this court has seen.


The facts of this one are by far the worst.


Brothers are by their children. Yes, husbands are supposed to protect their wives. I didn't know how I would sit here this morning. Get through listening to Miss Greene testify about what happened in this case. I look at you and you appear utterly unmoved by everything that she said.


Your actions are inconceivable and beyond understanding. I hope that the families affected by this tragedy can heal.


As a practical matter, this court is confident that if I follow the telescreen in this case, you will never be released from prison rather than decide to. If in the event I were to say no, this isn't enough. The family would be forced to take this to trial. And I don't want this screen to ever have to endure what happened again.


She already has to live with it every day. So for that reason, I'm going to follow the agreement. I'm convinced that we'll be incarcerated for the remainder of your life.


Thank you. Obviously, the crowd can barely contain themselves as the judge goes on to formally state that Gregory Green will serve forty seven to one hundred and two years for murdering his four children, though perhaps that is worth applauding. It seems that justice has been served this time, but one has to wonder how this could have been prevented in the first place. Gregory Green had done this before he went to prison for it, but he also served what was considered by teams of lawyers and a judge to be a fair amount of time.


The fact of the matter is, even if a parole board had not approved his release, he still served his minimum sentence. A spokesman for the Michigan Department of Corrections said that had Gregory not one his parole in 2008, he likely would have been released from prison in 2012 because of good behavior. Still an early release only four years later. Or if you really want to extend the logic. Gregory was twenty five years old when he committed his first murders.


Even if he had served all twenty five years of his original sentencing in 1992, he would have been released in twenty seventeen at age 50. Hey, 50 is the new 40, right? You still have kids. Plenty of time to start a new life, remarry, have a couple of kids and murder them. So the question becomes, how do we distinguish who is truly rehabilitated? When I was raising my children, I used to really wonder the same thing and say, you know, do they really mean it?


And I came to the conclusion finally when somebody said they're sorry, I have to take them on face value unless they demonstrate that they're really not sorry, in which case you're probably going to see that, too. When we trust someone, it starts with a risk. We don't know when we trust someone, if they're going to do what they said they're going to do. But as they demonstrate that they are trustworthy and they start to do the things that they said they were going to do, we established more trust.


So you start from zero, the bucket is empty, the trust bucket is empty. But as people fill that with know demonstrable evidence, you start to say, OK, I can trust this person more and more and more. We just have to be involved in each other's lives a little bit more and not just look at it as an us and them type of a question. We're all part of one human race.


And so, you know, we all are kind of responsible for one another. You know, who is my brother? You are.


And everybody I bump into in October of twenty eighteen more than a year since her husband was sentenced, Faith speaks publicly for the first time through an interview with the local news about what her life has been like since her children were so unfairly taken from her.


I miss them so much and it's hard when you see people with their kids and then like, you know, if you have to go to stores like you try to hurry up and pass the clothes because then it's like, oh, I would have bought that for them. And then it's like, you know, people might say, like, oh, she's smiling, she looks OK. But, you know, really, I'm not I just I don't know.


I got out of the line, you know.


How are you doing? I mean, we you mentioned the short term memory loss.


Honestly, I have a lot of bad days. My depression has gotten worse. I used it in those commercials. And when I say depression hurts, it, it really hurts these days. I can get up. I have to like. Kind of pep talk myself was, you know, this is a it's a hard day, it's hard.


This year is worse than last year as the realities of what happened to faith slowly settle in, she had to rely on the support of people around her to help her heal. Every day is a challenge after something like this. But one day the struggle becomes a little easier to manage. And then the next day after that, a little easier again and slowly but surely, a new beginning arises from the ashes. As for Jack Wagner and the case for restructuring, the way we look at the criminal justice system, there are still many hurdles ahead.


Over this past summer, as coronavirus lockdown's kept the majority of citizens at home. The Michigan Prisoner Rehabilitation Credit Act failed to collect enough signatures to make it onto local ballots this November.


I am again, not looking necessarily to to to save one person. I'm looking to try and shed light on the whole situation. There's many issues that need to be addressed.


And so Jack has committed to dedicating the next part of his life to making sure that happens. But electrical engineer, not a lawyer, not a politician, pulling his sleeves up and learning what is necessary to manage the bureaucracy of creating a nonprofit and move an important cause forward.


There's a passage in the Bible that says he who has been forgiven much love so much.


And I was forgiven a lot, an awful lot. And I'll tell you, it's made me a much more compassionate person with regard to this topic.


I wouldn't be here today just trying to to make the changes and see the changes come to pass if it weren't for what happened to me. So am I a productive member of society? I don't know. You tell me I've got a few patents to my name on the taxpayer. I raised my family and I'm trying to do right.


So it's not about me, though. It really is. And I think there are good people who are stuck in a prolonged situation behind bars that we could all benefit from giving them a second chance, giving them a second look. And let's let's talk about what we can do with the current population and what we could do to reduce this number and put people back actively into society, contributing members of society. If we're going to be rigid and and tough on crime, I'm asking, can we be smart on crime?


Can we start to talk about moderating or modulating the time that they're in there? So what exact mechanisms? I think in education has to be a part of it. Is it mandatory? I don't know. I don't know. It's natural to want to move the people who commit crimes far away from our society so that they don't harm anyone else. Lock them up, throw away the key, barricade them behind tons of cement and barbed wire and prison guards and dogs.


It's primal, really, to banish those who break the rules.


But regardless of your religious or political affiliations, we should also consider again humanity's capacity for forgiveness, grace and mercy. It's just a matter of who's worthy of those things and who isn't. Yes, there are those people who take advantage of other people's trusting nature, but there are also those who have truly seen the error of their ways trapped in an endless cycle, tainted by the reputation of the worst of us. There has to be a better way. Don't ask me what it is, just a podcast.


There are many of you out there that are way smarter and way more capable of answering this question. What good are we as a civilized society if we destroy the lives of people who want nothing more than a new beginning? In a world where the worst monsters are real, the cosmic laws of duality would suggest the opposite is also true. There are people worthy of redemption. Everyone's story deserves to be heard. Let's not let the fear of monsters like Gregory Green manipulate us into becoming a society free of forgiveness.


Free of grace. And free. Of mercy. The number is nine five four eight eight nine six eight five four plus one if you're international. Join us at certain scale down columns plus for all kinds of perks. And until next time, stay safe.


Hey, my name's Claire, and I've been a follower of yours, and probably 2015, it was early in the beginning. I remember starting the podcast and there were like twenty five episodes or something. And I was like, oh yes, this was a couple of months. And like to of course, go through them in like less than a week. But I was when I got them. I absolutely love your podcast. I put recommend on the top ten more.


I love the content that you feel for these just monsters, as you call them out there and can really just hear it in your voice when something specific is triggering you, bothering you, and obviously you feed off that.


It's just the best storytelling out there and keep it up. I'm also a member and I look forward to having an episode every week. I like Basket's myself. Thanks so much. And I think. Do you need something to listen to next? Well, check out this other show from Cast Media.


I am Jake Deptula. I'm Jamie Beeby and we are your hosts of Strictly Sucking.


In each episode, we're going to bring you a new stalking case covering the ins and outs of each stalker, their victim and their stories to see if you have any weapon.


What is it? A gun? A knife? Yeah.


She hated me so much. She found my stepmother, friended her and then was caught making a plan to attack me with my stepmother. He shows up to my gallery and he's wearing a spacesuit. He looks at me and he goes, You look like Jessica Rabbit and Lily from the Fifth Element. And then he looks at me very intensely and he goes, And I'm going to stalk you. We hear about the cops don't really do anything or not really caring about the crime stalking.


There's a lot of shaming for stalkers. The predator who had been stalking me for 44 years was starting to really interfere with my life and my freedom a lot more than he had been one of those random messages on my arm. It was like, I'm coming and I'll see you on this date. I was like, I'm not responding to this. And then it was like a verification of a flight got set. All of a sudden I hear a knock at the door.


So I open the door and there is a six foot something gentleman standing in front of me with a backpack. And he looks at me and he said, Are you Aaron? I'm kind of panicked because this isn't Larry. He followed me to my work place and he grabbed me, pushed me in the door. And what I block by block unblock. Why he me. I'm Jake Deptula. I'm Jamie Beeby. Strictly Stalking premieres on January 21st. Resubscribe subscribe on Apple podcast, Spotify or wherever you listen, podcasts.


I'm like, oh, my God, this person won't stop texting me or calling me. She keeps showing up everywhere. And then that's when it's like you're like, Oh, shit.