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From ABC, this is the 10 percent happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey, hey, vulnerability is not something I ever personally considered to be a valuable skill to cultivate. That is until I met today's guest, Bernie Brown, who helped me understand that being vulnerable is not about weakness, nor is it about sloppy oversharing.


Instead, she argues convincingly, In my view, vulnerability is about honesty, realness, risk and courage, all qualities that are hugely relevant during these turbulent times in which we're living. Bernie is a speaker, author, podcast, a professor and researcher who has spent two decades studying vulnerability and courage, along with shame and empathy. She's written five number one New York Times best sellers. She's had a special on Netflix and she's spoken to a lot of high achieving people about the importance of vulnerability from executive suites to the CIA to the Seattle Seahawks.


We recorded this conversation back in twenty nineteen during a simpler time. But I promise you, her insights are evergreen while I'm on the subject of vulnerability.


And before we dive into the interview with Bernie, I want to mention something cool that we've been working on here at 10 percent happier after the poly syphilis disaster of twenty twenty, which we should say did have some good points for some of us, but it was difficult. After this tricky year, we are taking a counterintuitive approach to the New Year. We're launching a special series of shows in which we will counterprogram against the subtly pernicious New Year New You narrative, which presupposes two things.


One, that you need a completely new version of yourself. And two, that this kind of transformation is even possible. So we're going to jettison the fad diets and self-loathing and explore something that may sound cheesy at first, but is actually radical and evidence based self-love and self compassion again. And I suspect you know this as a devout anti sentimentalist, I am keenly aware that self-love can sound irredeemably corny or self-centered or simply impossible. I'm also aware that some of you type A people might wonder whether self-love could lead you into passivity.


We're going to help you avoid all of these pitfalls. Our attitude and I love this expression, it's nicely summed up in something a Zen teacher once told his students. Here's the quote. You are perfect as you are and you could also use a little improvement. Will be kicking off this New Year's series next week with a new episode featuring Queer Eyes, Karabo and psychologist Kris Girma. Chromeo, in case you didn't know, is a licensed clinical social worker who talks a lot about self compassion and self love on the show.


Chris Guerma is a clinical psychologist, a lecturer on psychiatry at Harvard Medical School and the co developer of a massively popular program called Mindful Self Compassion.


And there's more starting on January 4th.


We're also launching a free New Year's meditation challenge in the 10 percent happier app we did this last year and I think the year before. People love this. And this year we're going to be featuring some of our most beloved teachers, Susan Piver, Tourie Sala and Jeff Warren. It's a twenty one day challenge. It's really going help you take the concepts we're exploring here on the podcast and gently pound them into your neurons. If, by the way, you have any doubt about whether meditation in the form of a challenge can work for you, listen to this feedback we got from a new user after last year's challenge.


She said, and I'm quoting here, I downloaded this app shortly before a mindfulness challenge began in January.


I wasn't certain meditation was for me, but I figured I'd try the challenge, which was to meditate fifteen times in a twenty one day period.


The first few days I did the challenge meditations and I found the practice calming and relaxing.


Then I started the basics course on the app, doing one of those meditations. In addition to the challenge meditation, not only did I meditate every day of the challenge, I have meditated every day since then compared to the other meditation apps out there. This one is the Rolls Royce of meditation apps. I love that.


So come join us inside the Rolls-Royce of meditation apps and start the challenge on January 4th, with thousands of other meditators ringing in the New Year with some sanity. It is easy and it is free.


Just download the ten percent happier app today wherever you get your apps or by visiting 10 percent dotcom, that's 10 percent. All one word spelled out and check it out. It's going to be great.


All right, enough out of me. Let's dive in now with Briney Brown. Such a pleasure to meet you. I really enjoyed watching you on Netflix. Thank you for making time for this. It's great to meet you, too. So you I was just looking at your bio and it says, I've spent the past two decades studying courage, vulnerability, shame and empathy.


And I'm just so curious, how and why did you come to these four emotions?


It actually makes perfect sense in my mind. So I have a bachelor's, master's and Ph.D. in social work. And so as a social worker like that, my my big takeaway from the one hundred thousand dollars of school loans for that for that experience was connection is really what matters. It is like where neuro, biologically, spiritually, physically, mentally hardwired to be in connection with each other. So I was very interested in understanding more of the anatomy of connection, like like it's such a gauzy word, right?


Like what does it mean?


And so when I started interviewing and I had had some experiences around shame, some personal and professional experiences around shame, I think I grew up in a pretty shame based environment. And then when I was in undergrad, I worked in residential treatment with kids that had been removed from their parents and would grow up in residential treatment until they aged out.


And we had a clinical director there that used to say, you cannot shame or belittle people into changing them. And the first time I heard him say it, I was like. I actually scheduled a meeting with him, I was just like I was just like a direct care person getting my bachelor's degree at the time, and he's like, what's up? And I said, You can't shame or belittle people into changing. I said, You understand? That's the way the world works, right?


It is that he kind of laughed. He said, What do you mean? I said, parents, schools, media, marketing. Like, that's the way the world works. And he goes, maybe. But there, you know, as a clinician of 30 years, you cannot shame or belittle people into meaningful, lasting change.


So I think I went into my social work career kind of holding that shame thing right there.


And then I got the connection, the big dose of connection through my degree. So I wanted to study what is connection? Does shame have a role? And I spent six years, like, really looking at that. And then at the end of that six years, I had all this data and I was like, oh my God, I know so much about shame. But I but inside the data that I have already is the answer to another question, which is there are actually people who wake up in the morning and say, I'm enough.


No matter what gets done and what is left undone, no matter how imperfect I am, I'm enough like, what do those people have in common? Because that was like a very strange notion to me. I was not one of those people.


And so I started looking in the same data set at and I call them the whole hearted people because I'm an Episcopalian. And there's a there's a line in the Book of Common Prayer that says something about loving with our whole hearts. And I was like, these are I would describe these as people who live in love with their whole hearts. So as I started getting into that data, what started emerging very clearly was the central variable that they shared in common was the capacity and willingness to be vulnerable.


And I was like, oh, my God, this is bad. This is awful. I wanted the answer to be they were shame. Researchers like the answer to Wholeheartedness is, you know, a lot about shame. So then that took me to courage and vulnerability from there.


So that's the long, the long, long trail.


What kind of change did these conclusions make in your own life? I had like a massive breakdown, really. I did like I literally had to put the data away because you have to lock it up under, like, human subjects protocol. I had to lock it up, put it away and then go find a therapist.


I've been to that point in my life, I had spent my entire life trying to outrun and outsmart vulnerability, like I was not raised to believe that vulnerability was anything but weakness and kind of the first step to giving people something to hurt you. Like, I just we didn't do vulnerability, like, at all.


So was that. A problem in your personal life, in your parenting and in your marriage, I didn't think so.


I. I didn't think so at the time, I remember like this is a story that I like. I've been thinking a lot about this works that I've never told it before, but I remember in the midst of this kind of breakdown period, and I was just I was always proving and trying to be perfect and like, Wound's supertight. So I was kind of the alpha parent, you know, and like, people would call me and say, hey, are daughters allowed to get their ears pierced at and like, no one more year and then they say, our kids can our kids watch this movie?


I'm like, yes, but only like I was that like kind of the alpha mom had the answers.


I had the answers, but I guess terrified on the inside all the time. And I remember it's a funny story. I remember being at a it was it was Easter Monday, like this is Easter Monday, I don't know, 10 or 12 years ago. And being a yogurt shop with Ellen after school.


And I was remembering her daughter, I my daughter, she's a sophomore in college now. And I remember thinking, God. Look at all these moms and daughters with their kids and everything's monogrammed and I should get more stuff monogrammed and my phone rang and I was like, I answer it. I'm having this moment with my daughter. And I was like, hello? And there was a woman on the other end. She said, Dr. Brown? And I said, yes.


And she goes, Where are you? And I said, I'm in Houston. Where are you? And she because it's GenY, the event coordinator. And I said, Hi, Jenny. And I thought to myself, God, these event coordinators are just like an anxious bunch of people and she has no where are you? And I said, I'm in Houston. And she goes. There are 2000 people coming to see you tomorrow morning, including the governor of the state, why we just got a notice from the travel agent that you missed your flight.


And like this is this is like a recurring nightmare for me. And so I was like. What? And I said, my flight's on the twenty third or something at three o'clock and she goes, it's the twenty third, it's four thirty. Oh no.


And I remember like, time slowed down and I just was like and I got in a car and Ellen was in the back seat and she's like, are you OK? Like Mom made a big mistake. Mommy made a big mistake. And I was like texting my husband. And I remember he came home to drive me to the airport. I left patients in the waiting room. He's a pediatrician and he's like, You're falling apart, Bernie. And I'm like, no, I'm not.


I'm good. And I said, Oh, my God. And I started crying. He's like on the way to the airport. Here's what's wrong. I'm like, normally when I go out of town, I make all the food in advance and I put Ellen's school clothes up, like with little clothespins. It's a Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. And he goes, and I said, and there's nothing to eat in the house. I mean, nothing in advance.


He goes, I don't mean to kick you while you're down, but we don't really eat that crap while you're away. We basically get pizza every night. And I let Ellen wear whatever she wants, you know? And I was like and that was kind of the height of the breakdown. I was like. My life is unmanageable, like things are not working, and so I say in therapy for a couple of years and kind of try to deal with the perfectionism and it was all about the vulnerability.


It was all about. I couldn't manage uncertainty.


So can you help me understand what you mean specifically and granularly when you say vulnerability and then I guess the second part of that question would be how did you and how does one operationalize that?


Yeah. So. The the the definition of vulnerability that emerged from the data is the emotion we experienced in times of uncertainty, risk and emotional exposure. So vulnerability is that that an affected emotion that we feel when we feel uncertain at risk or emotionally exposed, meaning we may lose control of our emotion or we're showing emotion and we can't perceive what people think of us because of that emotion. So that's vulnerability. Uncertainty, risk, emotional exposure. And I think the best way to think about operationalizing that is most of us, in order to kind of stay safe during vulnerability, especially growing up developed effective armor, like how do we how did we learn to manage uncertainty and uncertainties, much more threatening as a child than as a as an adult.


Right. Because, I mean, your survival could be at bay, you know, at risk over the years.


We learn to armor up and there are many different forms of armor. Perfectionism is one cynicism and one control is one power over. I mean, there's a lot of different ways we we armor up against uncertainty, thinking I've checked all those books.


Yeah. Yeah, yeah.


And so. What we know now, and it was interesting because I just finished a seven year leadership study and as part of that leadership study, we wanted to see if we could measure courage and vulnerability in people. So we worked with NBA and MBA students at Wharton, at UT Penn, Kellogg, at Northwestern and Jones at Rice. And we developed this instrument. It's an instrument to to measure daring leadership, like how courageous of a leader are you?


But the questions all relate back to vulnerability, meaning, you know, can you tolerate uncertainty or do you default to action bias? You know, can you stay in Problem-Solving or do you just need to fix anything? Do you talk if you have something difficult to say or do you talk to people about it or about people you know, like and it's really about the capacity to be in vulnerability.


And I'm on the wrong side of some of those. Me too. Me too.


But I'm working on it like I'm aware of my armor and I'm aware of how it shows up and when the problem is. And I spent a lot of time and I mean, you know, do work inside big companies like, you know, the Facebook, the Googles, the you know, the CIA, special forces. Like I do a lot of leadership work and. What was really interesting is it would take me a long time to convince people that vulnerability was OK until about a year and a half ago when I was at Fort Bragg and I just asked the simple question that came to my mind, which is, can anyone in here ask for Special Forces troops?


Can anyone in here give me an example of courage in your life or in someone else's life? That wasn't defined by uncertainty, risk and emotional exposure. And finally, someone said openside, many tours, there is no courage without vulnerability, and I thought I was out of that, a fluke. And then and then you could see the emotion while I've been in these soldiers. Then the next weekend, with the Seattle Seahawks doing some work with Coach Carol, asked the same question.


They took a minute. A couple of minutes later, Michael Bennett said, no, there is no courage without vulnerability. And just the other day, someone sent me a picture of LeBron James, who writes the Roosevelt quote that I use to kind of as the epigraph for vulnerability and courage on issues like.


If you're going to be brave, you're going to know uncertainty and risk an emotional exposure, and if you think you're being courageous and you're comfortable, you're probably not being that brave.


Can you reproduce that Roosevelt quote from memory or.


Yeah, I can. I can. It's not the critic who counts. It's not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done it better. The credit belongs to the person who's actually in the arena, whose face is marred with dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly. Who in the end, while he knows he may know the triumph of high achievement, at least if he fails, he does so daring greatly.


And so just back to part of my question. Well, let me start with you when you. Went through the therapy and tried to make some of these changes in your own life embracing vulnerability. How did that look when the rubber hit the road in your lived experience? What would your husband tell me if we gave him the mike, hmm, or your kids? My husband would say. But perhaps I would just say, thank God, probably, but I'll tell you what my therapist would say.


I remember so it was an interesting time because I'm sober, so I'll be 22 years sober in May like in a couple of weeks and thanks.


Big deal.


Yeah, it was a big deal and it was a really weird deal for me because I had a very high bottom like I did Agena Graham like which is like a family map that social workers and counselors do. For my last project in my MSW program, my master's in social work program. And I had to call my mom to help me figure out the family tree. And it was like, oh, my God, there's so much alcoholism. And she's like, yeah, it's really bad.


I mean, it was just like I couldn't believe it and I was like, this is awful. And then I had a I was wild. And so I was like, this is not worth it. This is not worth this is ravage my family. Like, this is not worth it. And so I remember going to like my first AA meeting and they're like, now you're not drunk enough to be here. And then I went to an AA meeting.


Like now we think you belong over the codependents. And I went over there and finally I got like the sponsor you're supposed to get the first week.


And she's like, you've got the pupu platter of addictions, like a little bit of everything. And I was like, so what am I supposed to do? And she goes, I think you should stop drinking, smoking, interfering in your family's life and eating.


It's like, what's left, what's left.


Yeah. And so so I was newly.


So part of this, I think was brought on by like I was really kind of working a really rigorous spiritual program at the time and having this break down. And I remember one day telling my therapist her name is Diana. I said, I need you to give me something. And she's like, what do you need? I said, I need an anti anxiety medicine if I'm not drinking and I'm not eating. And now I want to try to be vulnerable.


I'm losing control right now, like I need some kind of medicine. And she goes, Tell me why you think you need it. And I said, because I'm like a turtle without a shell. And in the briar patch, like, everything is scary and hurts. And every every time I move, it's like I feel something terrible. And she said, well, let's work on getting out of the briar patch. I was like, huh?


And she goes before we give you the shell, which for you had been drinking or food or, you know, perfectionism or work, before I give you another shout, let's try just moving out of the briar patch. And so I think when the rubber hits the road, it was re-examining my life and just saying. No, to a lot of things, I was afraid to say no to like I can get into scarcity, like, what if, you know, what if you asked me to come on the show and I say no, and then everyone stops asking me, do you know that feeling?


I do. Yeah, yeah. Yes, yeah. No, but you I mean, like those kind of things and like what if I don't agree to do something and then will people think I'm not grateful and then so not disappointing people not having good boundaries. And so that's what for me the vulnerability is there's nothing more vulnerable when you're raised with, like the good girl, perfectionistic, take care of everybody, you know, problem that wait to say no and set boundaries.


And so I started having to set really hard boundaries with my family. I'm the oldest of four. I had to start setting boundaries at work, which I kind of suck at still, but I'm getting better.


But I just had to start saying now it's interesting because setting boundaries doesn't seem like vulnerability, really. Now think about it. Think about. Think about you've got a parent and try to make up a scenario, you've got a parent that you love and who loves you and you love to see your parent with your child, but your parent talks to your child in a way that you and your partner have decided not to speak to your child. So you have to say, here's what's OK, I love you all together.


Here's what's not OK. You can't use that language when talking to my child. Who do you think you are, you're still alive? We did pretty good. You know, boundaries are always vulnerable because you're going to disappoint people.


Oh, it's in the setting of the boundary.


Yeah, it's in the city and it's in the holding of them, in the maintaining of them. Like, here's what's OK. Here's what I mean.


As a leader, you're revealing what you care about. Yeah, you are. And it's choosing self-respect over making other people happy. Mm hmm. Most of us were not raised that way. Right. Like I might have been were you? Well, yeah, but I think there are downsides to it, which we can get to. OK, yeah.


So I was raised more like be polite, make people come, you know, and there might be some gender stuff in here, too.


Oh, no question. There's all kinds of gender stuff and privilege stuff. And so I think. Yeah. And there's Texas stuff in there. You know, so. Yes, I started setting boundaries. I started saying no, I started, you know, I had to weed through some friends. Yeah. Which is hard.


But what about the control? The these are not my words.


These are the words of your sponsor interfering in the lives of your family, being so wound tight, making sure that all the meals are cooked before you leave and the clothes are picked out.


That continued. I let go. Oh, you let go. I really let go. Yeah, I let go and I let go. I let go the family stuff first because it just wasn't I first of all, obviously it's not helping. And then I just started to let go and it was excruciating. Yeah, because you know, that behavior where you're trying to control everything and you and it's like help. Disguised as like it's not really. Like I'm trying to manage everything to the best possible outcome for me.


So I was imagining vulnerability more, as in this may be one of the myths, because you in the in your Netflix special, you talk about the I think it's six minutes of vulnerability, but I thought it was more like just like wanton sharing.


No, I'm not a fan of wanton sharing. No. In fact, I think one of the big misses vulnerability is disclosure. That's one of the six months. It's not it's you know, I do think it's important to share and to build trust, but I think vulnerability minus boundaries is not vulnerability at all. It's inappropriate sharing, oversharing, shock and awe desperation. But it's not real vulnerability. I mean, like it's like when leaders say to me, like, I believe what you're saying, how often should I cry?


What should I disclose?


And I'm like, oh, man, you may believe what I'm saying, but you don't get what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is, if you want to be a leader who believes in vulnerability, like, for example. A lot of times I go into companies because they're having struggles around innovation and creativity, but they've set up these perfectionistic cultures where failure is completely punished. And so you can't expect people to innovate and create if you don't allow people to fail, because by definition, innovation is iteration failure and iteration like, that's the definition.


And so it's not about personal disclosure. In fact, a lot of people use personal disclosure as armor, like I just met you, I really like you.


Like we have some things in common. Here's my deepest, darkest secret. And what I'm really doing is testing to see if you'll still be around or confirm my my thinking that no one really cares about my struggles, you know, that's that's armor. So vulnerability is not that. It's about the ability to manage uncertainty, risk and emotional exposure without armor. And one of the things that was really interesting in the leadership study is my hypothesis, which was wrong, was that fear was the greatest barrier to courageous leadership.


But it's not fear because the courageous leaders that we interviewed were like, I'm I'm afraid all the time. I mean, I'm afraid all day long. The biggest barrier to courageous leadership and courage in general is not fear, it's armor. What do we do when we feel exposed? How do we self protect? And how do those pieces of armor keep us from growing into who we're supposed to be in the armor, donned out of fear?


Sometimes. But not always, that's not always the driver, I think it should be habit, it can be habit, it can be control, it can be it can be a lot of things. I think the armor. But it's not. It's look, one of the biggest findings for me, again, raised fifth generation Texan, we grew up believing you're either braver or afraid. And what I believe is absolutely true based on, you know, just now topping 400000 pieces of data is that you can be brave and afraid at the exact same time, at the exact same moment.


And most of us are. And so it's not it's not fear that gets in the way, it's succumbing to needing to armor up. That really gets in the way. Does that make sense? It's it's not fear is not the problem.


It's giving in to the feeling and the result of getting into the fear is armor. It's actually it's about.


Kind of embracing your fear or as you say, embracing the last night, we did this really cool event here in New York and a woman stood up and she was shaking and she said, you know, I just finished my first book. I'm writing really honestly about addiction and parenting and and my life. And she's like, I just like I'm screwed if it does well, because people will know more about me and I'm screwed if it doesn't do well.


And I'm just I feel sick like and I said congratulations. And I said. That's what courage feels like. And she has oh, but it's so uncomfortable and I said, I know that's what Brave feels like. And I said, let me ask you this. Do you feel alive? She says, Oh, yeah, I feel alive from head to toe.


And I said, that's courage right now is comfort. That somehow we believe. That we are entitled to be comfortable. And I've never done anything really meaningful in my life that was comfortable. My mother, who's kind of a trailblazing physician, advanced pretty high in the hierarchy at Harvard Medical School before there were a lot of women there and she likes to say, you know, you're out front when you have arrows in your butt.


I mean. That's it. I mean, that's it, no one out front. Is it beat up a little bit? I mean, and so and what scares me, I think about I mean, there's many there are many reasons I'm hopeful today as a researcher kind of sitting across from people for the last couple of decades. But I think what scares me today. That's relatively new, is I see an increasing number of people opting out of love because of their fear of grief.


Opting out of courage because of their fear of failure. Opting out of belonging because of their fear of disconnection, like. And I think somehow it was that we've been sold a bill of goods that somehow we deserve or entitled to not hurting.


And no one knows how to hurt. You know, and so instead of feeling pain, we cause pain. You know, instead of feeling uncomfortable. And just kind of writhing in a little bit and breathing through it. That's why when, you know, like. There's an interesting intersection with our work, I think we don't know how to handle the immediacy, the the physiology of vulnerability, like interesting, I did some work with a company.


Very well, probably one of the fastest rapid growth companies in the United States right now. And I spent a day with 20 senior managers and the minimum tenure in this room was probably 25 years. And we did these role plays and about half of these folks, very senior people, tapped out of the easiest role play. I brought three in increasing difficulty tapped out of this role play because they said it was too uncomfortable. It was a really easy roleplay.


It was like it involved you had to tell someone on your team that the cologne, a perfume that they were wearing, was giving other team members headaches. And it went from that role play to a role play where I'd have to sit down from you and say, Dan, I know you've been working your butt off for the last six months and you really want to project lead. But the team decided that to give it to someone else and I want to be honest with you about why.


There have been some issues around reliability that have been around for two years and no one has ever given you that feedback. People have just passed you along from team to team without ever giving you the opportunity to work on this. And I'm here to stop that. I'm here to say we don't, you know, because so often that was so well delivered.


Oh, I have an advantage because I know the role play, but then I have to do it in front of people a lot because they're like there's no there's no possible way to do this without being a jerk.


And and your point is there's vulnerability in that, even though the person saying those words is the one with the power, it's the vulnerability in being honest. Yeah.


Because you can be you could like gear up and be like, hey, you didn't get it worked harder or you could be avoidant and just pass them along and just pass them along.


Right. But the vulnerability I like one of the big one of the big things I talk about and dare to lead the leadership is clear. Is kind. Unclear is unkind. You know, like when we are not clear with people and we, you know, we make up a million stories about while it hurt their feelings, it's all about our comfort, clear as kind.


Here's the thing. I believe in you. We got some work to do. I think we can do it together. I think it's going to take six months. Here's what it looks like. Operationalised, just really clear. Here's what's OK. Here's what's not OK. Let's dig in. Clear kind. But that's vulnerable, and you have no idea how many people can't do that, but it's not the it's not the stereotypical version of vulnerability. Know what I like about it?


It is it is real vulnerability.


It's not theology. Yes. Yeah. And I don't know, someone asked me the question and I don't know the answer to it on Twitter yesterday or something. Why do you think these myths surround vulnerability, and do you think there's there's, you know, do you think there's a gender thing here? The vulnerable vulnerability is seen, you know, as weakness. And the thing about it is that there are there are women who struggle with this as much as men for sure.


And I think it's it's about shame. Because the greatest shame trigger for men is perceptions of weakness. And for women, it's don't be imperfect, be perfect and take care of everyone while showing no effort. And so vulnerability is just right in the face of both of those. Does that make sense? It does. I'm just thinking, like, is that the thing that that would trigger the most shame for me? I think the thing that would trigger the most shame for me would be that I'm somehow irredeemably selfish.


What do you mean? Give me example. Just don't care about anybody except for myself that that stuff in that area. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I got a problem there, too.


It's not necessarily weakness. Yeah, well it's a kind of weakness. It is not it's not the where I think most minds would go immediately when you think of No.


Yes, I think that's why a lot of male leaders will say things to me like, so should I cry? And I'm like, I don't know if you're cry or cry.


If you're not, don't don't cry. I mean, there's there's nothing worse than fake vulnerability that that will bite you in the butt every time.


Have you ever had a 360 review? OK, so I had one recently. I'm writing a book about it and some some of the listeners to the show will be familiar because I've talked about it a little bit and want a couple. The findings go directly to what first of all, is devastating. Was like a 41 page, 16 people anonymously interviewed for an hour, 41 page report. It was it was horrifying. And I went into a lot of shame immediately after reading it for an extended period of time, and I could still go back to it.


This happened, I would say, nine months ago and won a couple of the things that are that came up. One was lack of clarity and feedback. So a kind of cowardice there around just telling people the truth in a kind way, and if I did tell them the truth, it was often in an unkind way, which was clear, but probably the signal wasn't received because it was there was too much to be heard. Yes.


As the bigger one, though, the number one complaint, if memory serves, was emotional guardedness. Which goes right to what you're talking about, and I've wondered and I still wonder, what do I do with that? Because I'm not a crier and I know you're saying you're not saying go cry.


Yeah, but I don't know what emotional. Lowered emotional garden would actually mean it's a tough question to put to you, because you don't know me. I don't know you. Yeah, I don't I, I guess. I guess I would ask myself if I got that feedback. I guess the only thing I would ask myself I have mixed feelings about 360 is first of all. Oh, really? Yeah, for sure. They more I don't think they're the I think a 360 review is super helpful.


How they're handled and done I don't think is really helpful because you mean you get the results in, you're on your own.


Well, you get the results in, you're on your own. And I've never really sat across from anyone that's had a 360 that didn't push them into shame. And shame is usually not a catalyst for growth and change. Right.


So luckily, this 360 was done by a very skillful, sort of Buddhist inflected company. And they've there's been ongoing. Oh, that's great. One on one. Yeah, that's great.


Yeah, very strenuous. Pushing away from me from shame. Yeah.


So I think if I were you like this is this is why the 360 is hard. I'd rather be in a culture where people can have these conversations directly in the eyes of the people that are giving the feedback. Because I would say help me understand. Like I would I would want examples. And I say help me understand what it might look like if I were less emotionally guarded. How would I show up different with you or for you? What makes it scary, what makes my armor scary around that for you, what makes what makes me is am I difficult to approach?


I would ask a lot of questions because I think. In those questions. That's where the real heart of change is, so like so I just got I it wasn't a formal 360, but it was like more like a frickin intervention where. People on my team sat me down and said. There is an emotional intensity about you when you're fired up about something, when you're really mad, that's very hard to be across from and we're used to it.


But some of the more junior people are not used to it. And we know that's important to you for you to have a culture where people can speak up and disagree. If you don't do something with that, you're not going to have the culture you want. Wow. So Bernie Brown, the queen of vulnerability, was it can can run afoul of her own now?


Yeah, because because I would because I would never dub myself the queen of vulnerability. I would say I'm a vulnerability researcher who's working on it every day.


Yeah, that was unfair on my part. But basically I meant like the person who has popularized this concept in a way that is really gotten into the culture, perhaps the most prominently. Maybe that'll be a more fair way to put it.


So I apologize for the glibness, but it's so interesting and I think very important that you're willing to say this because. Does it just because you've named something and described it and advised people effectively doesn't mean you're advertising yourself as an avatar of perfection. Oh my God, no.


I think that's why people resonate with a TED talk and hopefully with the Netflix special because they see me struggling. I'm honest. Steve and I have been together for 30 years and we have two amazing kids. But like, I'm like. You know, Charlie will come in and say, hey, this happened at school and I'm like, that's it, I'm trying to do this like Buddhist thing from the children, where compassion is not a relationship between the wounded and the healed.


It's a relationship of equals. And that compassion is knowing your darkness well enough that you can sit in the dark with others. So I have I use a light metaphor, a light switch metaphor with my kids where if they say something hard is going on, I try not to run and flip the switch on. I just try to sit with them in the dark and teach them how to feel that and be in that. That's really good.


It's really it's really powerful. And my husband's a pediatrician, so he, like, uses it a lot, too, like because sometimes people say, how do I fix that now? Like, he'll sit with them in the dark and teach them. The biggest gift you can do is teach them how to feel the disappointment and feel their way through it, to teach them how to feel the grief or you know.


And so I'll say, you know, Charlie, you know, but can you fix it? I'm like, you know, I can't. But I can be with you in it. And I can tell you about how I felt. Before when this something like this has happened to me, and then he'll be like, OK, I think I'm going to have some alone time and then I'll walk out and look at my husband, like with like like you better fix this crap right now.


I mean, you fix it.


You call those teachers and you tell them right now that I will have them arrested, like like like like I go crazy like a human being. Like there's that emotional intensity, there's emotional intensity or like like this friend of mine's daughter got like somebody asked her to homecoming dance and then called her and said, I decide to take someone else. I didn't know she would say yes. And like, they they got someone better. And so, like the vulnerable response, like the you know, we'd be like, I really hear that that's really hard.


It's hard to see our kids in pain, but I was like, oh, no, I know someone who knows the Jonas Brothers.


I'll have them come pick her up and they will show that little like and she's like that poor kids like 14.


I'm going to beat him up like, no.


So no, I'm just a normal person that. The only difference between me and probably even like, you know, my dad or people that were just like, don't be vulnerable, this is dangerous, you know, is I'm aware of what I'm doing, but it's my default.


How did it feel when you got that feedback from your team? Super grateful their hurt. You know, there was a twinge of. I mean, I recognize that in myself. And I recognize that in a lot of leaders that I work with, too, that emotional intensity. And no, it didn't, because I trust them and I think we have this culture at work that we've worked really hard on, and so like that store that that the saying the story, I tell myself that we say it 20 times a day.


Can you say more about that?


Because you talk about this in the special and I think it's really potentially very powerful. So can you just talk a little bit about that, that expression? The story I tell myself?


Yeah, it was interesting when I was doing the research for Rising Strong. First of all, this sentence, like the story I'm making of the story I'm telling myself, has floated around in the data for over a decade, but it never really saturated. And for a qualitative researcher, I'm not going I'm looking for data that saturates across like that. I see it so much, it's predictably going to come up in everything.


And so but then when I start doing the research for Rising Strong, which is about, OK, so you're brave and vulnerable, the only guarantee is you're going to fall on no failure and just, you know, setback and disappointment. How do people get back up? Is there a way that people have found that works? So every single one of the research participants that we would really classify as highly resilient, like the highest resilient, use some form of the cities.


And as I started digging into it, it made total sense because when something difficult happens. So let's just do a scenario here.


I work for you. And you and I get out of a meeting and I look at you and I'm walking back to my office and I'm like, hey, good meeting Dan. And you look at me and go, what the hell, Briney? And you just give me this terrible look and then walk in your office.


Everyone I know would be triggered by that, right? Right, and so the brain says, my job is to support you in survival is my only thing I care about. There's no close second. What's going on? I can, you know, tension, anxiety. It's not just like a saber tooth running after us. It's it's a part of our brain. It's like fight, fight, unsympathetically freeze. And it still perceives vulnerability, emotional risk as threat.


And so the brain, if you give the brain a story. And you have the brain, you know, because we know now for through pet imaging, the brain recognizes the narrative pattern, a beginning, middle and end. It explains why we've used story to teach and communicate since the beginning of time. You give the brain a story that helps it understand what's safe, what's dangerous, what's OK, what's not OK, who's after you, who's for you.


You get a chemical reward, if I can say.


Oh. Dad hates me. He's always hated me, he's never trust me, he hated what I shared, he hated my presentation in that meeting, the brain of like, OK, chemical reward. We know what's happening. We know he's not safe. We know how to protect you.


The problem is that the reward happens regardless of the accuracy of the story. And the more nebulous and gauzy the story is, the less the reward.


It doesn't want something like, hey, what's up with Dan? Maybe it's not about me.


No reward. So what I found is that so I pick up the phone, I call Lauren, my colleague, I do the meeting with Dan today, yet an hour. Don't go cancel the meeting. I don't know what's going on with him. He's going nuts. He's I think I'm you know, you may get fired today. Like, how many times a day do you think that happens in offices where people start? I mean, have you ever led a team through change?


I've never had anybody report to me in my profession.


OK, so like in the absence, people can take this to the bank. In the absence of data, we make up stories.


Yes, I've done that a million times. Yes. Because my bosses. Right. Because we're a meaning making species is the great example is you're you're in a hard tax conversation. And you get the three dots and then nothing and then nothing, and an hour later, still nothing, you've got a huge narrative built up about what's happening right where that person is probably just like, you know, going for the run or, you know.


So I come back to you, I knock on your door. Hey, Dan, you have a second. Sugarmann, we got out of the meeting today and I said, have a good day. And you kind of looked at me like you were pissed off. The story I'm making up. Something happened in that meeting that you didn't like. And I want to see if there's anything we need to clean up. And you look at me and go, that meeting was scheduled for 11 o'clock.


We got out of there 12, 30, I have Zumba at eleven thirty every Thursday and I'm like, but what about the part about me? And you're like, no part about you.


I mean, how often do we do this with our partners? Jamie, like, hey, I'm trying to think of what I would say if my partner said she had Zombo. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. I mean, like like I'll say Steve like, hey, I've got to like, you know, got the Pediatric Society meeting tonight. You don't need to go. Oh, OK. Are you mad? I'm like, no, I mean, like if you don't want to take me your party, like if you know, if you don't like what I'm wearing, that's fine.


You to call a date, get a date. He's like, Jesus. I just say, like, I know you're busy. I know you're find out tomorrow morning. And these things are so like I'm like, are you sure he's like, OK, what story are you making up for? And I'm like, and then we do it together all the time now.


But the stories that we make up. Because we're making them up to self protect. The stories we make up grab our greatest shame, triggers our biggest fears about ourselves and just explode them in order to assure maximum protection. So whatever that shame trigger is for me, you know, like, oh, my God, there's a pediatric dinner tonight, I don't have the right thing to wear.


And so, you know, I think I have clothes to wear tonight. He's like, wear your jeans. I'm wearing. I don't care. Like, you know, he wears a Wiveton jeans every day and cowboy boots to work. Like, you could care less what I wear, but I'm making up that story because I'm in a bad place, because I'm packing to go to New York the next day. And I have no cute outfits to wear on your podcast, you know, like that.


That's it's that's how it works. And and with kids. I know you have a teenager. I have a four year old. Yes.


He acts like a teenager. We have four year old. You get a baby. Yeah.


So I have a 13 year old with his mother last night. Daddy hates you, and I know because I called him and he told me so he acts like a teenager, that's for. Yeah, but that's that's that's the beginning of the what's the pecking order of love here? I was like, wow, his game is strong. His game is strong. How?


Well, you better you better get some of these skills right now. You better skill up. No, I'm worried.


I know where he's getting it from. That's my shame place. That's the story. I tell myself that he's going to be not a nice guy because Daddy's not a nice guy. He's ever seen me do any of that stuff and he certainly didn't call me.


That's totally normal. Just manipulating it. That's totally normal.


Yeah, that's for. Yeah.


That's such a great that's like it's so funny. It's a great thing about being married to a pediatrician is like I like this is what happened today. Is this where he goes. He's like oh trying on that behavior.


So developmentally appropriate. Oh great news. Yeah. Yeah. You know I'm like really. He's like great news. It's like. I think that's a best frame just for me, but I'll take it, but the better story. No, but like I have a 13 year old and 19 year old. And so teaching them kind of we call it SFD for. You can say whatever you want, we'll bleep it, but, you know, as a first draft and for Kids Stormi first draft, you know, churches.


So the first draft is the first story we make up. And so when my kids are on social media are they're like everyone's going, everyone's doing this. But me everyone was invited but me. Yeah. That everyone gets, you know, fractions but me. I'm like, do we know that for sure. Is that a story you're making up? Well. It's a story I'm making up. I'm like, OK, how do we check it out?


And so you use this in your office culture, which made that intervention with you, it sounds like that, yes. Yeah, it's because we we we tell it we're truth tellers, really.


And it's when people come in and work with us or they're new, they're like, I've never worked somewhere like this. Like we'll just say like when they gave me the feedback, I said, OK, I'm going to call time out, which is a big part of our culture, because if you're going to have clear, kind, hard conversations, you have to get permission to call. I'm going to call time out for a second.


I'm feeling a little Shamie. Because I don't want to be that person. But can we circle back in 30 minutes and they're like, yeah, so I just kind of walked around the parking lot and took it in and then came back and I said that had to have been really hard to tell me. So I really appreciate it. I will think about it and I will work on it, and I have seen that intensity and I kind of know when I get into it, I don't want to make you responsible for my behavior.


But is there any way you can give me a sign when it's happening if I am missing it? And they said, yeah. And I said, OK, but they've all been on the receiving end of that. And so it's. When you normalize discomfort and hard conversations in an environment, miracles can happen, I mean, but I will tell you, like with my CFO, I called him probably, I don't know, six months ago it was.


And I said. I think we should pull out of this partnership right now in partnership with a big media partner that we were negotiating. I said we should pull out this partnership right now. And he's like, we're not even we haven't even into yet to signing a contract yet. And I was like, yeah, this is just B.S. like I'm out. And he's like, OK, what's going on? And I said, well, the story I make up is that they've had the red line.


They're not getting back with us. They're not interested. So I'm going to pull out before they say they're not interested. And he said, OK, super helpful. They've had a red line for two hours. It's 62 pages. We will not hear anything from them for at least five or six days.


It's like, oh, OK, he's like, do you still want to back up now? I'm super excited about it, but I'm just like he's like, you know, so we are always the story I'm telling myself here.


The story I make up is you didn't do that last night because you disagreed with us going in that direction. And the person will say. I did it last night, I turned it into your assistant and I don't know where it is, but that's not know. So we're constantly checking things out.


I love that. I think it's great because, you know, I am I have kind of two jobs at work at ABC News where I do anchor a couple of shows and technically nobody really reports to me. And then I also have a startup company, 10 percent happier. We have a meditation app. And I'm actually now really starting to get pretty granular about corporate culture. And I'm learning a lot. I've never really been in a management position.


They need you. I don't actually have an executive role in the company. I'm a co-founder, but I'm interested in all this because and I've got a lot out of your Netflix special on this level of like how do you create a culture where there is I think the term of art is psychological safety, where people feel safe speaking. Yeah.


And you can be on the right side of clear in kind and yeah, it's all super interesting. Much more of my conversation with Bernie Brown coming up after this. A healthy lifestyle should be easy, right? Eat veggies, drink green smoothies, exercise to get your heart rate up and do yoga to bring your heart rate down. All right. Well, maybe not so easy, but there is something that can help just about everything. And you can do it with your eyes closed.


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You'll only find sleep, no sleep, no stores or by visiting sleep. No dotcom slash happier. I've asked none of the questions on my list in front of me, because you said something interesting things I'm just responding on that. So now I don't have to prepare for anything ever.


You said something about people who are whole hearted.


They wake up in the morning and feel like I'm good enough. No matter what happens is that's a skill somebody can build to order that.


A factory setting.


No, that's a skill like I mean, the factory settings can can forecast how much work it's going to take to get there. But it's definitely a skill set. It's definitely like I think I feel like I'm working toward it. I feel like I'm further than I was ten years ago. Hopefully I'll you know, I, I feel like my kids have it so much. There's so much closer than I am because Steve and I've been trying to be very intentional about not using shame to parent about.


You know, really trying to make some different decisions and how I think how we were parented parents doing total best they can they could with us. But I think I think it's absolutely. Possible, too, for anyone to get there. I mean, and one of the big parts and I've heard you talk about this with other people, you've got to constantly check the narratives like we believe what we tell ourselves about ourselves. You know, and so if someone couldn't love you, didn't have the capacity or didn't want to love you, it doesn't make you unlovable because people didn't see value in what you produce or create.


Does it make you less valuable? Like, we have to really challenge the narratives that we have bought into and we built our lives around them. So I think if we can challenge the narrative and learn how to be uncomfortable in emotion, I think almost anything is possible. Here's the final question and maybe maybe we'll have more time after this, we'll see. But I was told going into this that you didn't have much of a meditation practice. And so we always on this show start with, hey, how'd you get into meditation?


But I didn't do that with you because somehow I've been led to believe that you don't meditate. But then in our little chitchat before we started rolling, you told me that you might so say more about that, if you will. I don't know.


Does it have to look a certain way? No. OK, so here's a thing that I have to do. Something quiet. Alone. And rhythmic. On a daily basis, I would probably die. What do you mean by rhythmic, like I'm a swimmer?


OK, so I so like, I just, you know, because I breathe every third stroke. And so it's got to be really quiet. It's got to be like the way I think about it. And I'm a pretty spiritual person, which also happened during that kind of breakdown stuff.


I'm always I was kind of raised Catholic or Episcopal, you know, but I have a pretty healthy spiritual practice.


So I always think about what you mean prayer?


Both, I think, because praying to me is talking and then meditation to me is listening. And so I try to listen in a quiet, rhythmic space. So isn't that meditation? So I'll give you kind of a technical answer. Yeah, which is that I think it's great when I talk about meditation, I'm talking about mindfulness meditation.


And mindfulness actually has a specific meaning that I don't know because I really literally don't know, because I'm not in your mind as you swim or whatever it is you're doing in these times, which, by the way, I think can have many, many, many benefits.


Cardiovascular, psychologically, exercise can. But mindfulness is kind of a meta awareness.


It's neat knowing that you know or sometimes is sometimes people will say we are classified as a species, as Homo sapiens sapiens. So the one who thinks and knows he or she thinks.


And so mindfulness is the ability to see clearly that you have a mind and are thinking and that you have this voice in your head that yammering at you all the time.


And the mindfulness takes you out of that traffic. It allows you to see those processes and so that you're not owned by it.


Oh, yeah, I definitely meditate.


OK, so yeah, in mindfulness meditation you are systematically trying to focus on one thing. Could be swimming, it could be your breath. And then every time you get distracted you, you start again. And what that the skill that develops over time is, is mindfulness, which is an ability not to be owned by whatever neurotic obsession just floats through your brain.


I definitely do that. I definitely do that. Like as if anything, if anything, if anything comes into my mind other than the flow of the water over me, then I start over again. Yeah. So that's yeah. I don't I'm not as good as that. Like I've tried walking meditation before.


I'm not interestingly like I do like to sit still but. I'm working on the meditation thing, but I think swimming is very meditative for me, it's like a it's like a decompression chamber, like you can't hear anything, you can't see anything. It's just you're just breathing. But it's definitely the meta thinking. It's an awareness of my thinking. Does that make sense?


Yes, absolutely. It's interesting. I'm glad I asked. I stepped gingerly when you said that, because often when people say to me, running is my meditation or swimming is my meditation, I say, actually, I think running in swimming or or whatever yarn bombing, whatever it is you do is great. But unless you do it in a specific way, it's probably not meditation the way I define it, but actually the parenthetic phrase there, unless you do it in a specific way, I think you are doing it in the specific way that would make would qualify it as mindfulness meditation, I think is mindfulness meditation.


Even because I separate that swimming from when I'm like doing time 50s or something like that, like this is really this is really about. It's a mental practice for me. Yeah, for sure. So I think I do that very much in the water. All right.


I'm going to I actually have a few minutes to ask this one last question. I want to shoot. We talked a lot about vulnerability as it pertains to sort of professional relationships and parenting a little bit, but we didn't really get into romantic relationships. So in our remaining moments here, what would that look like? Is it you use the phrase in your Netflix special? I believe the willingness to say I love you first. Yeah, but is that what you're talking about?


I think it's more than that, I think it's like, you know, I just picture almost every couple I know, myself included, that like we go through the day so armored, get stuff done and, you know, kick ass, don't anyone see anything that, you know, just do it. And then, like, we, you know, we climb in bed at night or in these big suits of armor, you know, to people that it's like so hard just to be seen.


And I think, you know. Having a partner that sees you and that, you know, to see and to be seen is the great human need, right. And I think to not be armored with the people that we love to be able to say, I'm really afraid about this or this really hurt today or but we don't do that. We go home and we keep it on even with our partners, you know, or I'm really scared about what we're hearing about little Sammy or, you know, like.


To be able to sink into each other. As a place of safety and not one more place where we have to prove and perfect and please and worry about what people think, I mean, I think that's the goal. I think it is. And I do think saying I love you first. I do things thinking, you know, I'm afraid like. It was interesting because I mean, this is a great example. I so in another piece of feedback I've received in my life is that instead of getting scared, I can become scary.


I'm like, yeah, I'm laughing because it feels like something I would do.


Yeah. Like I can get like like if I'm scared, I can get pretty fierce about stuff. But I was talking with Steve before I came to New York and we were riding the car and he's like, what is the anxiety about Netflix? He's like, I've watched it. You know, I give you real honest feedback. He's like, I think you crushed it, you know? And I think to be able to go up there and do that and it was meaningful, I think it could change people's lives in important ways.


And as of now, I just I don't know. I just hate this part. I hate it getting out in the public now. And I'm scared. And he's like, well, what are you scared of? And I said. Like, I didn't want to say it because I knew what it was, I didn't want to say it, and he's like, I'm going to pull over. I was like, don't you dare pull over. I don't make eye contact with me.


I was like, don't make eye contact with me. And he's like, I have a pull over. And then I stare at you and he's like, oh, my God, you're so mean. It's almost like if you can't drive it, I'll tell you. And I was like it was like, don't look at me. Don't say anything. After I say it, I may be pissed. And he's like, OK.


And I said, I think. It's the anticipatory anxiety of knowing the cheap seat criticism is coming. Like the first couple of days, something comes out, it's the people who love your work and they're like, thank you, this is great. Really enjoyed it. But then as it goes, as it is, it radiates out like the pebble on the pond. Then people are like, you know, screw you.


You know, like, you know, those people come.


And I said, so it's like it's like when you were 10 and, you know, your brother is going to frog you in the arm, but you don't know when it's coming. And I was like, and he's like. I am pulling over and I was like, oh, damn it. So he's like, that's coming. And he's like, you know, that's coming because you put your well, you put your work out in the world for a long time and you're super brave, but, you know, it's coming and you can choose not to read it.


And I'll be here and it's going to be OK. And it was worth it. You know, like I get teary eyed saying it like. That's vulnerable, you know, as opposed to just get in the car and be like, hey, yeah, I can let let's go like I like to really let someone see. What scares you or. Like with kids, like I remember one time my daughter coming home and she had just started high school.


And she said, I'm running you know, she's running for class president of a freshman class and she came home one day and we were sitting at dinner and we'd go around after Grace and we say what we're grateful for. And she goes. I'm really grateful for y'all, and I said and I said, thanks, Al, and we were getting ready to go to her brother and she goes, because I can tell you how bad I really want this and I'm not going to win.


I know I'm not going to win. And I said, yeah, you may not win. You may, but you may not. And I said, but when you let people know how bad you want something. That, you know, you may not get. You've already won. That's brave. Because most of us are like, I don't care. I don't really care. I'm just doing it for the fun of it. Let's see what happens.


And then you go cry in your room alone and then you dry your tears and come out like a bad ass, you know, like I didn't really care about it.


But to let people know you care about things, like that's vulnerable.


It sounds like I was vulnerable. Both sides, you and Steve in the car, both are vulnerable because he gave you honest, clear feedback.


Totally. And same with you and Ellen. She was vulnerable and admitting how she felt that you were vulnerable and not trying to make her problem go away and switch the lights on for her. You sat with her in in the theater?


Yeah. And I think it's I think one of the biggest barriers to raising vulnerable, courageous kids, if I think about my own upbringing, is our parents who put too much emphasis on school.


Like, cool is a straight jacket, like like Stephen, I'll be dancing around the kitchen or socks or something, and my son, who's getting ready to be 14, I'll be like, oh, my God, stop.


And we'll be listening to some very popular song like Old Town Road or something. And I know this is this is burnt in my vision forever.


And it will stop and get really serious and be like, hey, look, we won't ever do that in front of your friends. We won't embarrass you. You don't have to dance with us. But in this house, awkward, silly, uncool, always rules. Yeah. You have a place to do that.


Steve was right. You did a great job on your Netflix.


I think you and I do recommend unreservedly that people watch it. So that means a lot. Thank you. It's heartfelt, wholehearted even.


Thank you very much. Really appreciate it. You were it was great to meet you. I could I could talk to you for five hours. Maybe we'll do it again. I would love that.


Thank you. Thanks again to Bernie, that conversation has really stuck with me. I've gone back to it many times, so really appreciate her coming on. After having listened to Bernie, you might feel ready to put some of her ideas to work in your own life. So let me mention again our upcoming New Year's meditation challenge. It starts Monday, January 4th. You can meditate alongside thousands of other people. You can even invite your friends and track their progress.


As mentioned at the top of the show, we're going to have a special focus on self compassion and self love, which research suggests can be much more effective than shame and self-loathing. When you're trying to put up a new healthy habit or break an unhealthy one. So download the 10 percent happier app right now and sign up big.


Thanks, as always to the team who work so hard to make this show a reality. Samuel Johns is our senior producer, Jay Cashmeres. Our producer Jules Dodson is our A.P. Our sound designer is Matt Boynton of Ultra Violet Audio. Maria Wartell is our production coordinator. We get an enormous amount of insight and input from our colleagues such as Jim Point, Nate, Toby, Ben Ruben and Liz Lemon. And of course, as always, big thank you to my ABC News comrades, Ryan Kessler and Josh Cohen.


We'll see you all on Wednesday for an episode with Evelyn Tribble. This is an episode that genuinely and this is an overused phrase I know, but happens to be true in this case, genuinely changed my life. Evelyn is the cocreator of Intuitive Eating, which has revolutionized my often fraught relationship to food.


So we'll see on Wednesday with that.