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Coming up, it's not Christmas. It's NBA trade deadline day. And we're doing part one of a multi part podcast next. We're also brought to you by the Ringer podcast network. I put up a new rewatchables on Monday. We did our live show from Chicago, the fugitive. You can find that on Spotify. Wherever you get your audio, you can find it on YouTube, on my YouTube channel, slash Bill Simmons. And we also launched ringer NBA and Ringer NFL channels recently, the Ringer FL channel. We're putting up a lot of good stuff up there from Vegas, some video stuff, stuff Ben Solac did, stuff from podcasts. Subscribe to our channels. We don't put bad stuff on the channels. We try to put only higher end stuff. We try not to waste your time. And that's the same premise behind my channel where we run clips from this podcast. We run entire podcasts. We run Rewatchables podcasts. We might even mess around with some live stuff. So subscribe, stay tuned. Just keep an eye out for the stuff we're up to. We're up to a lot. 2024 is going to be a big year for the Ringer.


Very excited about it. Very excited about today. Ryan Rosillo, we're both on call like doctors. We've been ready to roll, waiting for trades, waiting for trades. And then finally, around 07:30 a.m. Pacific time, stuff started happening. We're going to break down everything that has happened in the past, like 18 and 24 hours in part one of this podcast. First, our friends from Projet trades. Ryan Marcella in Vegas. I'm in Los Angeles. We're going to do at least two parts today. This is part one. If there's a mega trade between part one and part three, which will be winners and losers, we'll do a part two. Big winner so far. Rosillo the Knicks. So they get OJ and an Obi and precious and Boyan Bagdanovich and Alec Burks. And they don't have to touch their picks and they don't have to give up anyone basically in their top three. If you think Robinson's the third most important guy they had just getting this for Bogdanovich, they traded Grimes and Fournier and Flyn and two second round picks for Bogdanovich and Burks. What an awesome trade. And they still have all their first left. What was your reaction?


Well, it's a no brainer because you're just adding extra guys. Like I've always liked Bogdanovich. He's 40% from three. He was really good last year. He's just an incredible shooter and he's got a lot of size, but it's.


A playoff funny experience.


Yeah, right. Like that pacer series. He was the number one option against the Celtics years ago, and you were like, okay, you guys probably aren't going to win this series if Bagdanovich is your number one option, but he's just a better offensive player than any piece that they've moved out here. Here's my question for you, though. Do you think he closes in a tibs lineup in a playoff game?


So I was trying to figure that out. I went to the game Saturday night when they had a bunch of injuries and it was so clear that it's like Brunson needed help and maybe another second crater. So Bogdanovich is perfect for that. So if we went Brunson, Randall, Og, which is mark those three in with a big guy, then it's Bogdanovich or Dante as the fifth, right, depending on what the matchup is, which is pretty nice flexibility. I mean, the big thing for me is when Brunson's off the court now, they have somebody they can run the offense through. And that was the one thing they were missing with the quickly trade, which turned out to be a great trade, but they can run two six minute stretches in each half through Bogdanovich and be pretty good. I'm really high on him. Did you watch the Celtics Pistons game this year when the Pistons almost ended their home streak and they were running everything through him and cade in the fourth quarter? The Celtics have always had problems with J. I don't know what it is, but he always likes going against them. So if the big picture, the Celtics are the team you need to beat, he's going to help.


I liked it. I thought it was a really good trade. And they also kept all their first for if Mitchell decides this Summer, like, hey, thanks, Cleveland, it's time for me to go. And then they'll have, he's been there.


But he's been on fire, too. I mean, in January, I think he was, what, 46% from three the whole time? So when you look at the full Bogdanovich package, there's not a ton of rebounds, it's not a ton of assists necessarily, but the shooting has just held up his entire career. And he's also older than people realize, too. I think he's, what, 35 in April? Because he didn't come over right away when he was drafted, so he got in the league later. But then you look at granted he missed time this year, but with Detroit, clearly he was going to get more options than he was going to get with New York. But I do wonder defensively, even with his shooting, and I think you're totally on point with the Brunson of like, hey, can somebody else be some kind of like offensive release valve for me if things get bogged down or depending on the staggered rotations and how they want to run the offense. But knowing Tibbs, when I think about defenseo and Hart defensively as options in a playoff game, I just had this image in my head of McDonough watching it, right?


Well, I will say for him we've seen like, remember he had that one stretch when he was actually like half decent going against LeBron. Defensively, it wasn't like the disaster it would have seemed on paper, like he at least tries. I think know Fournier. Tibbs is just like, I'm out. Like the game I went to last weekend, it's not all those injuries. And Tibbs is like, I'm still not playing Fournier. Fuck off. I can't handle. They want guys who are at least going to try on, you know, he's got size. There's certain people you can throw him on. He's not going to be able to stop like Luca, but many guys are.


He's been a net negative almost his entire career defensively. So depending on if you think of it as a size matchup and look between OG, but he's not.


And the big though, I guess is my point. He can at least like he's got size, he knows where to go and teams will hunt him. But it's not like, oh my God, we have to get this guy off the court. I don't think he's that bad.


No, I don't. I'm just thinking the only reason I'm even asking this is because of tips. That's the only reason the trade is a slam dunk. Now when you think about offensive options and the second unit stuff, if they want to go that way with him and the way Devon Gentiles played out of his mind and it feels like Hart just kind of impacts games just a bunch of different ways. And you probably felt like Hart and grimes were a little redundant. So it's, it's a no brainer considering what they gave up. And I think the best part about, you know, I think at some point we should talk about the Philly. Part of this is Philly was rumored to be in play for him, but I think the MB injury changes, probably a lot of Maury's options. And then you got to figure out like, okay, what could the projected cap space be for Philadelphia and all this stuff? The fact that McDonoughvich is 19 million next year, and I know it's not even fully guaranteed and locked in next year. Yeah, right. But you'd have to think that Bagdanovich at 19 million versus what you'd be spending for that kind of player, even at an advanced age, it could be more than 19 million and you'd be extending it for probably three years.


So there's a lot of cost certainty there where I'd be shocked if he's not. I don't think they're just going to do the 2 million and then make him a free agent. I would think that this is. But they have that option if they want to. But I still think that's a really good number for what he provides.


Well, remember, we would talk about this when we did the Sunday pods, how the Celtics were in that stretch of a couple of years where they never had the right contract for trades. It was always like they had giant contracts and small contracts and nothing in the middle. So the Knicks had this fournier contract that they had to move before the deadline because it's a trade chip. You got to turn into a player. You're going to lose it at the end of the year. They turn into Bogdanovich. But it's also a trade chip next year for them, right? Worst case scenario, it's an expiring a year from now and somebody that can help them down the stretch in the playoff games and then they get Burks out of it. I'm not a huge Burks fan. I've never been like, oh man, I wish we had Alec Burks.




I've never been a huge fan, but he is shooting 40% from three this year. Now he's playing on this shit Pistons team and whatever. None of the games have been anything but if you're replacing Grimes, Dante is getting most of those minutes and heart. Grimes was completely expendable for them and they at least have somebody they can put in the corner who can make some threes. I don't know. So you like it more than I do?


I guess I just always felt like Alex Burks has had these moments where you're like, this guy can just. I think he's had a lot of stretches and granted, he's been on what, six teams now? He's been Utah, Cleveland, Sacramento, Golden State, Philly, New York, seven, New York again.


And by the way, he was already on the Knicks in 21 and 22.


That's what I liked him, too. I'm not telling you, Alec Burks, you're going to be running plays for him at any point in the playoffs. I'm not saying any of those things, but there's just certain guys that just seem to always get some buckets. And throughout his entire career when I've watched, I'll be like, you know what? That guy's got like a nice mid range turnaround. So if he's in this deal, I can only imagine Monty Williams going, you guys are killing me. How am I supposed to get the 15 wins?


Well, they traded like five threes a game and they traded like almost 33 points of offense. Feet good.


That's what they should have been doing this year.


Yeah, and they're bad. And now that, now they're almost guaranteed to be a bottom four team. Burke says your 9th or 10th guy is fine. That's what I still feel like. They need one more big dude and I'll be interested to see. I kept hearing Nick Richards with them, who I really like and I think could be an interesting deadline piece. We'll see if he goes today, but I still want them to get a little more size. Big picture, though, and I can't wait to make fun of Detroit, but we'll hold that thought. Big picture. I've been worried about this Knicks team from a Celtics fan standpoint, and now you look at their top nine or their top ten is basically Brunson, Randall, OG Hart, DDV, Bogdanovich, Harttenstein and Robinson when Robinson comes back as the center combo and precious, and then Burks as the 10th. And that's a team that could hang with the Celtics in a playoffs like it is. And they're going to be tough and they're going to be hard to go through. They're going to be really good at home. They have a closer, they have OG to throw at, Tatum.


They have some size stuff that I think would be a little bit of an issue if poor Zingis is healthy for that series. But for the most part, they got a two seed and they have to see the Celtics till the eastern finals. I think it's a legit threat. I really, the things that worried me about this Celtics team are the coaching stuff, the depth, the Porzingis injury potential and then the stuff that happens in the last five minutes of the game and the decision making. And this is the type of team that I would be afraid of for I am I too panicky?


Maybe a little. I mean, don't you think it'd still be surprising if this Knicks team were in the NBA Finals?


Yeah, but I don't love anyone in the east. I mean, the Celtics have, like, a five game lead in the east, and Cleveland is now basically the closest team to them.


Yeah, they're the two seed. Nobody talks about them. I mean, they found a way to stay above water here and not just above water. Win every single game while all those guys were out. And now all the guys are back, and I'm still stung from that Knicks series with them last year where I'm like, they're just going to have too much firepower for them. And it's like, no, actually, their offense is going to look terrible. It's going to look like Mobley and Allen actually in a playoff series. It's just too many non scores out there, depending on who the fifth guy is after. Garland and Mitchell. And yet Cleveland, like, all this love that we're given. New York, Cleveland didn't even have two of their most important four players and still did. You know, I hate the kind of like, oh, you need to do this more. You need to talk about them more. But they're the two seed. But I think we're all really just stung. It's all like, tbd with them because of that Knicks series.


Well, both of us felt like, what is this team? What's their identity? Mitchell, Garland. Let's figure that out. Mobley, Allen, can they play together? And then those two guys went out and they kind of settled into some identity that I just feel like they hadn't found before. Now it's clearly Mitchell's team. So the other guys come back. They have to fit into that. And Alan got unleashed, and now it's like, all right, Mobley, anything you give us is a bonus.


But really, he's been great since he's been back.


Yeah, he's been good. So a little pressure is off on him, but, yeah, that team's had. If you had to rank the Celtics competitors, would you still have the bucks? First. Yeah. And who would you have second with the embedding question? Fourth. Philly? Fifth.


I can't get over that series. If they didn't play each other last year, the Knicks got eliminated by somebody else, then I'd be sitting here going, hey, we've seen Mitchell have insane playoff runs, but Brunson shatters through any limitation you ever put on him. But when it comes to regular season playoff stuff, even when we get out to the western part of this thing, I just have a hard time buying into something that I've never really seen be successful in the playoffs before. And even with Milwaukee having the doc record since he's been hired, like, it's going to take a little time, but they have. For a team with that kind of record, I can't remember ever watching a team that has that great of a record, that has a moment once every ten days. You're like, what the hell is wrong with you guys? And yet, because I've seen what Yanis is capable of doing, that I still have a hard time sitting here being like, yeah, I think I'll pick the Knicks and seven against the Bucks. Would you, would you pick him, like, right now, you picking the Knicks against.


I don't like Milwaukee at, like, at Knicks, I would pick the Knicks against the Bucks. Yeah. At this point, until the Bucks can show us they can play well for like three weeks in a row. I mean, to me, their record, I've personally watched them steal six, seven games where you're like, how the fuck did they just win that game? They played like crap, but they don't even seem happy after. But they look like one of those NFL teams, like the Vikings two years ago when the Vikings were like 13 and four, and we're all like, no way. This is not a 13.


Yeah, but the team, the Vikings had never done it before. Like, you're talking about, how did they pull out some of those close games? I've watched some of those games, too. It's because then Yanis is like this unsolvable thing. And so when I think about the playoff series and you're like.


Can he just be unsolvable four times out of seven? I don't like when teams every couple of weeks just lose by 30 or fall behind by 35. It's like the worst sign in the NBA when you can't make it two weeks without getting just annihilated by somebody. Makes me nervous.


Look, I'm not telling you you're wrong on that one, because there's certain nights you're sitting there on league pass, you just go, wait, what's the buck score? And then every now and then, you check the standings again, you go, wait.


There'S 30 credible 16. How did this happen? So the Knicks, incredible front office maneuvering here, and on top of it, they proved one of my favorite adages. When in doubt, trade with the dumbest team in the league. And I guess the question is, is Detroit, have they been the dumbest team in the league for at least a few months or maybe even longer than that. And are they clearly the dumbest team in the league now? Because I think they are. I just refuse to believe that trading Bogdanovich and Burks, the best you could do is Quentin Grimes. And like a second round pick, that was what those guys were worth. I don't see it, but I don't agree with really anything they do. I mean, you go back to last summer, like, even that Marvin Bagley contract where we were like, wait, that was like three years. That wasn't just like a one year deal with a team option for a second one, the Monty Williams for 80 million. Like everything they do, I disagree with what they did to Jade and Ivy this year. There's a reason their record sucks. There's a reason I don't feel good about their future.


There's a reason they're probably going to blow it up after the year and bring in a whole new bunch of people. But if I was a Pistons fan, I'm like, why are we letting these guys even trade? These guys just shouldn't be allowed to trade. Let's take it to the summer and start over with an actual vision. I don't get it.


The Monty Williams thing is one of the dumbest decisions I've seen from a team in years. So it's not just this year. There's certain things when you look at the roster construction where you're like, what's going on? But then there's also some players that they've drafted that I really like. So I don't think it's as if they were so high on Durin and they were right. They were right about it. I think there's a chance they may even have taken him instead of Ivy, and then they were able to trade back in and then get Duran. And whenever you have to hire a coach as, like, the headline, you know, it's not even knocking Monty. But if you're paying Monty more than anyone's ever been paid to be a head coach, that should be somebody in the room going, wait, what are we do we wait?


It's not.


Just to, just to be clear. And then when you pay a coach that much, he has even less interest in the development part of, you know, that's the circular thing that will happen for as long as basketball exists. The front office loves all the young guys. They've drafted. They've scattered. They put all of this time into evaluating these guys. You get that one pick, you take them and it's like, okay, cool. And obviously they loved him enough to even take the guy. And the coach is like, well, I don't want to lose all the time. And so with Monty having this much money and this much power and this length of contract, he's like, I don't really have to prove myself to the front office because I'm the most powerful guy in the world.


I'm not going anywhere, right?


And so there were so many moments this year, I'm like, what are they doing with this closing rotation?


Everything was nuts. And now you see the way he's playing the last six, seven weeks. Everything was nuts. The Knicks right now are third on fanduel for Eastern Conference ods, seven to one. Milwaukee is plus 220 and Boston is plus 130. The Cavs are nine to one and that's been climbing. And the Heat are still 18 to one and Detroit is infinity to one because they're probably going to, I don't even know if they're the worst team because we've had such a nadir of bad teams this year, but they just lost 32 points. I assume now this is the Cunningham Ivy show for them, but that's what it should be.


And it should be one more year of between Duran, Ivy and Cunningham. What do we have that should be the main goal next year? Not, hey, Killian hasn't made a shot in four, so let's run the offense room again. Right?




Let's do that.


Clearly, by the way, I saw when that story leaked that Killian is feeling like maybe he needs a new team or whatever that was. I was like, this is the most Rosillo story of the year. Killian Hayes being like, maybe trade me to somewhere where I could get a better look. That happens for four years. You should be in the G league.


That happens a lot, though, when the guys of rookie contracts are coming up and they're just thinking like, I've got all these minutes, I've had all these shot opportunities. So what's my next contract going to look like? So then you'll see there's sometimes I think teams get rid of guys they don't even want to get rid of, but the coach won't play them anyway. But in this case, he was playing most of the times. They have to figure out who they are with these lottery picks. I think Stewart's been terrific for him or he's somebody else that teams would want. But look, you can't just have minimum rookie scale guys and then get to the cap or the salary minimum. And there is value of having veterans around. I'm not into the idea that everybody's supposed to be 2021 years old in the entire team when you'rebuilding because you need to have guys that accept their roles and everything. But the most important thing is the resources that you've used on these top draft picks and it felt like a good chunk of the season. Monty Williams just wasn't super interested in that.


It was awful. We're going to take a break. We have lots more to talk about. Happy Super bowl to all who celebrate from Fando, America's number one sports book. If you're like me, Super Bowl Sunday. All about scoring the best seat on the couch, grabbing your favorite football snacks, placing some super bets. We talked about a lot of these on Sunday with cousin Sal. I'm going to do my million dollar picks at the end of the last part of the trade deadline pod, the same game parlay that we talked about on Sunday and then FanDuel is now promoting. It is over 13 and one ODS Mahomes under 262.5 passing yards, Noah Gray to get two catches, Pacheco 70 plus yards and Kansas City win the first half. End the game that is 13 to one. It might even be a little better than that. You can do things like that on Fanduel. So many ways to get a w. You can bet on who's going to win Super Bowl 58. You can bet on touchdown props, points scored. Just a million things. Go check it out. If you're new to Fando, join today and you'll get $200 in bonus bets.


Win your first $5 bet. Visit BS to sign up once again. Bs. Make every moment more with Fanduel, an official sports betting partner of the NFL, you must be 21 plus president in select states. Gambling problem? Call win 800 gambler. Visit rg $10 1st deposit required bonus issued as non withdrawable bonus bets that expire seven days after receipt. Cterms at sportsbook all right, the sneaky trade of the day so far. We still have at least a couple of hours left, but OKC got Gordon Hayward from Charlote. They gave up Trey mans Bertons Mietz, who I kind of liked as a backup guard. I wonder if Charlote will flip him and draft compensation that we don't know yet, but we'll probably be a second rounder. So Gordon Hayward 15 five and five this year, 36% from three a vet. We all felt like OKC needed to get a little older. I can't totally say. He's had a ton of playoff experience. Guess how many playoff games Gordon Hayward has played. Seven. Oh is actually higher. 29. Oh.


I don't know.


I just thought he's been in the league since like 2009 or 2010. I would have guessed like 50. Man was the 18th pick in 2021, but was buried behind some guys. Wallace basically grabbed a bunch of minutes and time, and Wallace is excellent. Is Hayward in the closing lineup for them, in your opinion? No, it would be the giddy spot, right? If he's playing last five minutes, it would be in giddy spot would be my guess.


I'm a little surprised by this one.


Yeah, tell us.


Well, maybe they were that worried about all the, hey, our average age is now higher, so history is on our side for NBA championships.


Obviously that was stat muse is going to. We're better with stat muse now.


That was not the motivation. There's just so many players on the Thunder roster that we like. But I would have thought the main priority was trying to get another piece, some size.


You mean somebody taller than six, seven? Yeah.


So, like, yeah, I guess you could say Hayward has a little bit of experience here, but I don't know that any of us look at him and go, man, you know, he's been through the playoff wars, so that helps with everything. I don't know how often. I mean, is it just a better outlet than giddy?


Can we bring in conspiracy bill for a second?


Please do.


Is it possible they flip Hayward in a one for one for a big guy?


Why would they done it?


Because they get all the salaries. They add those up and it's still lower than Hayward, who's making over 30, and maybe this allows them to get somebody in the 30s. That was the only thing I agree with you. I felt like either this was move number one and move number two they haven't made yet, or maybe Portland's like, hey, Deandre Hayton, any interest? And OKC is just going to say, fuck it, and get somebody like that because there are a couple of expensive centers out there. So I think it's one or the other. I can't believe they have a legitimate chance to win the title. I can't believe they wouldn't get another big guy like you can't go into march with unless they feel like there's a buyout guy that they're grabbing. Nick Richards is still sitting there as, like, a $5 million guy for teams like the Knicks and OKC and a couple of the other contenders. And I still feel like he's going to be heard from today, but I'm with you. This either has to be first of two moves or they flip hayward for a bigger guy.


Yeah, there's plenty that could happen that we still aren't aware of here, but I would think with hours to go before the deadline that you would have just gotten the third team involved. Unless there's some part of this that I don't understand, which is always in play. But Mieci was out of the rotation. He couldn't make threes. He was 37% internationally from three and he just didn't make for him.


Yeah, I liked something about him. I feel like he's going to have a moment on some team somewhere at some point. But you're right, he couldn't hit threes. How many teams do you think can actually win the title? I know you did a couple of weeks ago, you did your teams that I think could maybe win the title or whatever that was. But if I had to say, these are the finals teams right now, and then we have a group underneath them that are either one move away or need some luck. For me, it's like I only have three teams that I think could actually win the title right now, and then I have a bunch of people underneath them. But for me, it's Denver and the Clippers and the Celtics. Those are the only teams that right now I feel like I can absolutely see them in the finals. Everybody else, I could absolutely see them in the finals, comma, but. And then there's a but and those are the three that I don't have a butt for.


That's the best list. As far as the definitive hard line of it all, I did the if this team won and in June you wouldn't say, how the hell did that happen? Then I expanded it out to nine and I included Minnesota. I concluded OKC. I even put Phoenix in there. I think I still had Milwaukee in there. I think I had Philly in there before MB. So it was a much longer list. But if you're going to be, did you have Miami or no, no.


Would you add the Knicks there now as a comma? But.


After those three, I still think there's a gap. I'd also like to see what it looks like. This run has been terrific and I know it's a bit like whenever you look at Phoenix stats, you go, okay, what Phoenix stat actually matters here? I think the eleven and five with those three guys is the one that matters the most. I think that's what it was after the Bucks win this week with Beal, Booker and Katie all playing. So there's some stuff where you look at the Knicks and you go, okay, they destroy. Well, not destroy, but they have an incredible record against the teams that aren't any good. So is their record against teams that are over 500. Is that fair? Considering how well Ananobi has been at a level beyond anything he's ever done in Toronto? That's how well he's played for them. So, yeah, I'm okay with it, but I'd like to see it for another know instead of these months where it's just, hey, this one month, this team's incredible. Like, this happens to us every single.


Month where there's a team, especially February, March.


Right. Except with the Clippers, it's two months.


So it was a Clippers is more real, I think. Would you put New Orleans as a comma butt team? Yeah, they're pretty impressive. Last night I didn't go, but I watched the second half as I watched the Godfather at the same time. The Godfather on and clips. Pelicans. Pretty fun night.


I know. You were locked.


Great times.


Great was. I was having a blast. I was just sitting. I turned the tv off to read your tweets.


I appreciate that. I just want to point out with the Suns, one of the many reasons I don't have them as a comma butt team yet. Nurkage is eight games away from his career high in games since 2019. He's played 48 games. His record since 2019 is 56. Just a little dubious. I'm dubious of nine months out of Nurkage. Doesn't seem that realistic to me. Call me nuts, maybe they'll flip him today in the trade deadline.


I think he's good for them. I like the way they've used those guys. And I also think they tried it against Atlanta when they lost that game. They tried to come back. Vogel just pulled the plug on it and they tried to go small and it didn't work. But I imagine that's something that they would like to unveil at certain matchups in the playoffs, too.


I'm just not buying the durability with them. All right, next trade that happened, Philly just basically got Buddy healed for a six pack of Michelo Baltra and some gummy bears and, I don't know, some cheetos. I don't understand it. I get it from Indiana's point of we should probably trade. Buddy healed. Neesmith's been really good for us. We have Matheran. Those guys need to play. We have a little of a glut. We have a guy playing for a contract next year. If he's not getting 35 minutes a game, it gets a little unhappy. So let's move Buddy expiring deal. But is Morris and Cork Moss and three second rounders? Is that the price for a guy who literally could shoot 50% in the playoffs from three?


Doesn't it feel like nobody's liked budy healed forever, but they've all, what is.


It about Buddy healed?


Yeah, he's like one of the real.


Housewives that all the other housewives just repeatedly turn on. And you're like, what does she do? She seems fine. Why do they hate her so much? Yeah, I don't understand it either. I like budy healed. Guess what? I like guys who make 45% of their threes. Good guy to have in a playoff series.


It's the lowest minutes he's played since, like, 17. It's the lowest shot attempts. He's under ten shot attempts per game this year. And, yeah, they had him down to, like 26 minutes a game this year because of Nie Smith, who doesn't miss threes. I guess with healed, it just felt like, hey, we need shooting. We need shooting. Shooting is awesome. Everybody wants shooting. But as soon as I saw the trade go down, when it finally happened, I'm like, why would the Pacers be okay then from moving on from him? Maybe if they look at it as like, look, we're going to lose him anyway. We're going to resign Siakam. We've got to start figuring out the Matheran piece long term. They've got another lottery pick and Walker, who didn't even play. So it might just be about, hey, we didn't have a long term for this, but for a team, the pacers that are making moves to just kind of be a now team while also trying to figure out who they are moving forward, I think there's a little hint there that tells you, like, yeah, he's all right, but he started losing minutes and shots to our guys here.


Yeah, do what you want.


Well, so now they have left Halliburton and Siakam. They have turner, they have Neesmith, who's been terrific this year. Matheran, Nemhard, Toppin, Jalen Smith. And Walker basically is their nucleus, depending on whether they do one more thing. Philly Embiid, if he comes back, Maxine Harris, Batum Covington. They still have his swings. They still have Melton. They've healed. They still have Beverly Reed. They have a roster spot for a buyout guy. And it feels like they're playing both sides of the fence here. They didn't really give up anything for healed. They don't know when Nabeed's coming back and they're just going to kind of play it by air. I am skeptical that embiid comes back. Where do you stand on that one? It just seems improbable that they're. No, no. Go out there and Joel, it'll be just play yourself back into shape with your meniscus issue. I don't see it.


I don't know how you feel that comfortable already saying that, though.


I just said I don't see it. I'm not saying I'm ruling it out. It just seems unlikely.


I don't know. I don't know. I mean, if you're telling me somebody that's had a long string of injury history, and I always kind of add this in, I can't believe he's been this healthy throughout his career, to be honest with you. So you throw this in and know all the shit that he dealt with with the Denver game, and then, hey, he's significantly hurt. You could see how hurt he was in the warriors game before he actually got hurt again. He had the Draymond thing, and then Kaminga lands on him, and then he actually has to leave the game. But that entire game, he wasn't even close. He wasn't even close, and he's out there playing. So I don't know how that's supposed to look. I wouldn't completely rule it out, but I think it had a lot to do with the motivation, because what do you do if you're the Sixers? You have the maxi decision, which is a no brainer. You have all of this cap space.


What's the maxi money going to be? That's like 250. Unless he makes, like, third team all NBA. Then it could be even higher.


I don't know. Off the top of my head, it's just going to be whatever it is. Whatever it's going to be is what it is. He's hit that level now. So there was always this rumor that they had, like, maybe a play for Bogdanovich or maybe one of the pieces from Brooklyn, the names that get thrown around all the time. And this is the part of the cap space part. Like when you look at the free agent roster and you go, all right, what's actually out there? Because it's like, okay, well, is there a trade to be made where we cut into that cap space a little bit, but it gives me certainty on who the player is. I don't know if there's part of, it's not even negotiation. I just say, like, if you're talking out and you're Maury and the entire staff, you're okay. Like, what do we do now? Do we keep trying to get better right now or do we try to do something that's preemptive and has, like, we do our summer transaction right now knowing exactly who it is instead of hoping during the free agency period, which is again, that free agency period sucks.


And I hate when these sites list the restricted free agents as top free agents. Just take them out because anybody that is that good is just going to be matched anyway. So they're not even free agents.


Well, and then you have, from a celtic standpoint where they have white and holiday, who both, holiday's player option is like 39 million. He might actually opt into that, but White is going to opt out. And I just think it's unrealistic. They're going to be able to keep both of those guys and if they do, the money is going to be insane for both of them. They could do what they did with Horford, with holiday, and be like, all right, opt out of the 39. We'll give you four years for 110 and we can stretch it out. You'll make less the first year. But I do think somebody could come in and Godfather offer White. Maybe it's the Sixers.


By the way, Maxi is eligible for five years, over 200 million, so I don't think it's 250.


But if he made all NBA that I think, well, that tweaked a little bit, but I don't think he will next trade. That happened, man. Toronto is up to stuff and I don't really fully understand it. They're 17 and 33 and they traded the worst of basically a Clippers or OKC first this year, which would be in the high twenty s and a couple of expirings, then got back Olinic and Agbaji, both of whom I like. And the only thing I could think of with this is Toronto is a top six protected first to San Antonio. So they could either have made their team much worse or try to make their team better. So that wasn't as bad of a pick as maybe it could have been. Utah just seems like because they also traded Fontechio to Detroit and got a second rounder back and a guy you like, but it seems like Utah is just trying to clear bodies out to get so their young guys can play and Toronto? I don't know what Toronto is doing. What's Toronto doing?


I don't know. I don't know. I mean, clearly it feels like people make jokes about certain NBA teams going after players from certain colleges or certain agencies. The stuff that's happened over the year with the Knicks. Like, oh, it's all the CAA guys. Or hey, the Lakers are all these clutch guys. Or they want to add more clutch guys. I don't know if they're just going Team Canada and saying, let's do know. With RJ coming back and Linux is.


A nice player, is wigs in play now for them?


They could probably have them. They could get them today if they want to. I don't know what the matching deal would be with that, but I don't really know. I don't know what that clearly they wanted to do their work before and get all this stuff done. And I think you're also seeing like the quickly experience at 32 minutes a game instead of like 22 minutes a game.


Who could have guessed? No history in the league of that happening. Can I just read you Toronto's top ten? Sure. It's super weird. Scotty Barnes, Bruce Brown quickly, RJ Barrett, Agbaji Olinick, Pertle Schroeder and Grady Dick. I don't know what the fuck team that is. That's like a team you draft in fantasy or something bizarre. And I don't know if they got Olenek because maybe now they're going to move know, and I was thinking maybe that's the next OKC piece. But I don't even know if OKC has the contract to throw back at that. But they're just.


Are you a pertle file?


I would be for OKC. I'm not a fan of him at 20 million a year, but at least he's a big body that can bang with some of the centers. You're going to have to play if you're going to try to win four rounds, you're going to have to play a center at one point. I mean, that's why we didn't talk about the Celtics trade for Tillman. I feel like they made that trade specifically for our jokic series. Right? It's like we might have to play Jokic. We don't have that type of guy who's not going to stop Jokic, but at least is that lower to the ground thick guy that he seems to at least struggle with a tiny bit. I feel like that's why they got him.


Yeah, I think beyond Jokic, too. It's just. Okay, what's Horford going to look like where they've done a really proactive job of trying to just make sure he's more, more ready for the long haul? Because it felt like Horford fell off a cliff at one point in the playoffs last year, the season that they got porford last year, I couldn't believe. And then at one point we're like, I guess this thing's over. And then, yeah, Porzingis, I'm always going to be worried that he's going to be hurt all the time. So they added another body to probably take away those cornet minutes, which is.


Probably their number one priority. Yeah, the KP, Horford insurance was their number one priority. I think they looked at your guy, Najee Marshall, I'm sure they looked at Nick Richards, but Verno, big Sterling scouting report from him yesterday from Memphis says, great guy, always smile on his face. Three kids, an adult, just like a good guy to have on a team. And I think the Celtics chemistry is so good. I do think they care about that. This, like, if we're bringing in anybody, it has to be a good guy that fits in with the good guys that we have because I think that's been a big reason why they've been succeeding. Everybody likes each other. You don't always get that right.


But say Boston, Denver's in the finals, like, how many, if everybody's healthy, how many minutes is Tillman playing a game?


Maybe not any. Forgive me, the everybody's healthy but poor zingus. I've been talking about it a lot. It's really something day to day. Just like, oh, no, the game I went to Sunday, banged knees with somebody and he was limping around. I was just like, oh, my God, no, he's just really tall. I feel the same way about Wembanyama. People pass a certain height level and you're just scared for them all the time, especially when there's people jumping and people landing. I like the toman trade. They certainly didn't give up anything. But from a Utah standpoint, does Utah want to be good or does Utah want to be bad? Right? Here's what they owe OKC a top ten protected first. We saw this last year with Dallas where Dallas was like, we want to be in the top ten. And they even bench luca down the stretch, they end up with Derek Lively. I'm wondering if Utah is like, yeah, we don't actually want to be in the play in, which would be great for gold state if that's how they feel.


They have such a weird team. They, they seem to play above the talent level. They seem to be in more games than you would expect. I mean, their story this year is kind of the opposite of last year. Like last year, they got off to an incredible start. We thought they were going to be one of the worst teams in the league, and then they definitely level off this year. They start poorly and then they played so much better for like a good stretch. When I'd had hardy on at that point, I was like, these stories for the two seasons are almost the Sexton is. He's not perfect, but he's really good. Keante George has had his moments. Kessler's terrific. Obviously, marketing is a star in this league at this point. And Clarkson gets it going. And Olenett can do a lot of different.


They have a lot of offense.


It just felt like maybe, I think getting their lottery pick Taylor some minutes is probably part of this. Agbaj had been better last year, so maybe they just looked at all of it. Hey, let's move out the pieces that we don't have any future with here and then figure it out. But also, when I look at the jockeying for the protection on the picks, everybody hates this draft, even though I know in may people are going to start talking about how it's sneaky better than everybody thinks because it's just the way it works. I would wonder why you might not be like, hey, let's be just good enough to get rid of this pick now, to get out of 24 on that specific pick that's owed. Even though they have their own picks as well.


Right now they're picking ten seed. They're 26 and 26. The warriors are 23 and 25 right behind them, and the Rockets are 23 and 27. So there's only three teams in the west that are 100% going to be worse than them. Then you go in the east and it's Brooklyn, Toronto, Charlote, Washington, Detroit on the lottery. Brooklyn has 20 wins. That's the highest of those. Atlanta's got 22 wins. And I don't know what Atlanta, they benched Murray last night, so I'm guessing he's going to be in part three of this podcast. And the Bulls are 24 and 27, so they're going to be right on that fringe of top ten. For me, it's just more fun if Golden State's at least in the play in versus Utah or Houston. So I guess we'll see. But we were talking last night. We were comparing notes on things we were hearing and we were saying how Danny's been in the spot ten years ago with Brad Stevens when Brad was like, just lights out with that overachieving Celtics team, and it seemed like they wanted a tank that first marcus smart season and Brad was just too good.


And then all of a sudden they're trading for Isaiah Thomas. And that team was in the eastern finals in 2016. So I don't know. Danny's will zag when you don't expect him to zag. I don't know what they're doing is my takeaway. We're going to take a break and we'll come back with one more quick segment. All right, while we were in break, we had another trade. This is the wackiest trade of the day. Dennis Schroeder straight up for Dinwiddie. Steve Saruti reporting this one. Schroeder makes 12.4 and Dinwiddie's at like 20. So Toronto had some cap space to play with, and Brooklyn, I guess, wanted to cut some stuff. Who knows what they're up to. I actually kind of like Schroeder, but Dinwiddie isn't expiring and there were rumors who's going to get bought out? We'll see if this leads to another one. Toronto is like the guy in the fantasy league that's just like, yeah, I'm open for business. Sending, like, the text with all caps, trades, question Mark. And people are like, yeah, I'm going to call Gary, see if he wants to. I can trade Jared Goff to him, try to get a receiver.


I think there's way more motivation. I mean, I'd have to look at some of the tax stuff with this, but Schroeder is under contract for 12 million next year. I mean, Dinwiddie's been bad. I mean, just legitimately bad at this point and not even close to being as aggressive as you like. The one thing with Dinwoody, you thought, okay, best case scenario is he's not your starting point guard, but on an okay team. Like, can he come in with a second unit? And he had some stretches, even with Dallas in the past where I was like, you know, he's kind of got it going a little bit with them. So I thought he was so disappointing this season. I would say it's kind of like his offense every single possession, but the fact that he's a free agent, then I kind of wonder what to your don't. Does Toronto want his bird rights? Is there another piece to this that.


We don't have yet. The Nets are. I'm always confused by the said. They're on my confusing list. Like, remember last year when they were getting offered multiple first round picks for Finney Smith, when they had all those wings and they were like, nope, can't have think. I don't think they're getting the same offers this year. They just have a bunch of wings in a super weird team. I've not enjoyed what they've done the last couple years. Are you at the free Cam Thomas stage of the Nets yet? Just no, I think they're unleash them.


Well, they kind of are. There's two things that are happening right now where it's not always the case with quickly and Scottie Barnes, but that Oklahoma City double overtime loss was alarming. And I realized the argument against me is that Barnes was defending SGA and then he ends up on Chet. At some point he had to defend all these guys. I thought he was just at the point where he got a little sick of watching quickly. And then I watched the Nets Golden State game, and at one point cam was two of 18 from the floor. But he was undeterred. He was an undeterred. He was a confident two of 18. And then I'm watching Mikhail Bridges stand in the corner and watch him going, these two things shouldn't be happening because Bridges is the most important guy on that team and cam can kind of get his. But I think I counted some absurd stat when we were doing the draft stuff on him where the number of games where he had one or zero assists in a game, having the ball that much, it's just as soon as he tried to get Rudy Gobert on three isolations late in the game against Minnesota, he was getting switched into him and he couldn't actually even shake.


Oh, thad young's in that trade, so the salary is actually even up.


I'll tell you what, if Thaddeus Young.


Ever figures it out, how many teams is that for? Thaddeus Young, hold on. Without looking this up, how many teams do you think he's been on?


Thaddeus? Eleven.


I'm going to say nine. Thaddeus Young, he's going to be like the new Jeff green at some point. Chris Gatling, he's been on 1234, be team number eight. Man, that's lower than I expected, I guess he was on philly for seven seasons, still got a way to go. I mean, Jeff has a chance to play for every team in the league if he can just stay healthy for five more years.


Is daddy is still not 30 years old.


Daddy is 35 years old.


I know. He's always one of those guys forever where you're like, wait, he's still in his 20s.


He was an seven draft guy. So how many people in the seven draft are left? Durant, Horford, Conley, Green, thaddeus, and that's it. Five guys. Durant still humming along, man. Any other trades? I guess that's it for the things. All right, so there's this Dallas trade that I don't know. It's Daniel Gafford for Rashawn Holmes, but Dallas still has to figure out what the pick is. Seems significant because you can't just swap those two guys. Gafford on Dallas would be pretty interesting, though. Like, he's know lob around the rim guy. That's kind of who you want to put next to Luca. I find it hard to believe they're just going to be able to get him for a second round pick. But this is why you trade with dumb teams, because Washington be like, yeah, all right, take them.


I wouldn't put Washington down as a dumb team, but really, they're back for you. Well, you got to give winger in this group a little bit more than not even a full year with.


Who traded for Jordan Poole? Was that the current. Yeah. Yeah. Tough start.


Simple, out of the gate fair.


Did you see the clips of that? I know you're in Vegas. Did you see the clips of Poole last night? It's, like, sad. Now, this is the saddest story in the league. The Draymond punch, like, changed the course of his career.


He said his legacy is cemented with the ring, so none of this matters.


It's cemented in my head. He killed the Celtics.


I would love to have a guy with a nine figure deal that young, and then I have him and he'd be like, how do you feel about the future? And be like, who cares? I did it.




I already did it. Man 22. It's all that matters. Check the wikipedia.


All right, it's 09:53 a.m. Pacific time, so we have a couple of hours left. If you had to make a prediction of anything that's going to happen today that's either major or fairly major, what would the prediction be?


Yokich will not demand for a trade fair.


That's not major. Murray, what's the biggest Murray, like, what do your spidey senses tell us?


Unless they just decide to trade Reeves, I don't know how you get that deal done. I want to see DeAngelo Russell and Trey Young on the same team. Selfishly, but I don't.


I've been thinking about you a lot with that.


Right. I don't know why Atlanta would do that.


The problem is, that's the main tv for you, every hawks game the rest of the way. If it's Russell Woodtray, you're locked in. I don't feel like you'd be watching the rest of the league enough after that.


No, I won't. We'll be doing the Sunday pods. You'd be like, what did you think about nuggets thunder last night? I'd be like, I'm worried about Sadiq Bay's feet. I'm worried about his feet. I've been watching his Free throw routine. Do you know that Sadiq Bay takes 8.7 seconds on his free throws? I've been timing, because all I would do was watch Hawks games. I actually watch a lot of Hawks games now. Deandre Hunter back in the fold.


I don't like the Hawks. I think the Hawks have been a stealth league pass, like, all star team this year. They're in fun games over and over again.


We've watched anybody realizes, but we've also been saying we kind of sneaky, like their roster for, like, three years, and that hasn't really worked out.


I genuinely like Jalen Johnson. I had 59 on the trade value list. I was shocked he was that high because the league is super deep. I was like, yeah, top 60 doing it.


Wait, who did you have behind Jalen Johnson? Then give me a big name that I'd be like, what are you doing?


Hold on. I'll call it up for you.


I had Jamal murray.


No. So I had Keegan, 66. Jabari, 65. Derozan, 64. Holiday, 63. Caruso, 62. Kaminga, 61. Hawkez, 60. Jalen Johnson, 59.


So you wouldn't trade? Oh, wow. Okay, I see what you're saying. So if Golden State called you and said, we'll give you kaminga, you say.


No, I'd say no. Wouldn't you say no for that, you would rather Kaminga than Jalen Johnson?


The only thing that would make me say no, so I agree with your ranking, would be that, hey, I got to see the rest of the. It's still too. It's too soon. Whereas Kaminga's a little bit more. Look, maybe Kaminga has finally turned this corner, and this is all real, and it's going to happen. He's been really good now, so before, it'd be a much easier hang up, but I still think it's the right move because Jalen Johnson gets out there and does some crazy shit in games.


Not to say a real pedigree. Like, he was really, for most of his life, one of the best guys in his class. Like, he went to Duke. It's not like he's like an out of nowhere dude. It's just for whatever reason, he felt a 20 in the draft. But they're actually like a 500 team when he plays and then they suck when he doesn't. I'm with you on Kaminga, though. Big strides the last year. I think Murray will get traded would be my big prediction. I think that happens. I think somebody's going to talk themselves into him. It doesn't make sense to have him and Trey together. It does not work, and they're not going to have the balls to trade Trey. It doesn't look just. They scratched him last night against the Celtics. That was suspicious. Feels like he's heading somewhere.


The market for him has been just not great, man.


Like when you ask around about, don't, like, he's one of those guys that's like, okay, do I have to trade Austin Reeves and a number one pick so I can have. Am I. Where is that taking me if I'm the Lakers? Yeah.


And that's, I think, because of the Lakers part of it where you, okay, say everything is in place, and then once the draft turns around, you have three picks eligible for you to trade as opposed to the one. And right now you're trading, what, a 29? So that's its own thing. And then you'd be moving Reeves in this because I just don't.


I would have moved Reeves.


I definitely, look, Murray is better than Reeves, but for the contract part of it, and then all the other pieces, and then you have to ask yourself, okay, like, all right, you got rid of Reeves and now you moved another future pick when LeBron is not even going to be on the team anymore. What are we actually doing here other than.


Well, they're not doing right by LeBron, though. They've only traded eight first round picks for him, plus 25 players. They need to prove that they're invested in him winning a title. We're going to wrap up part one. We might be back for a part two that will be a little shorter if something mega happens. If not, we will be coming on some point around the trade deadline and then getting that part up as fast as possible. This was produced by Kyle Creighton and Steve Cerudi. You can watch it on YouTube. On slash Bill Simmons Priscilla, I will see you a little bit later today. I.


Want to see them on a waste. I don't have you with him on the wayside on the first I never.


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