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Coming up, chaos in Milwaukee, some NBA trades and a Boston sports report. Next. We're also brought to you by the Ringer podcast network where I put up a new rewatchables. On Monday night, me and Chris Ryan and Wesley Morris did Philadelphia, the only movie that stars Tom Hanks and Denzel Washington. Hanks won the Oscar. It is a fascinating, fascinating early 90s movie and weirdly rewatchable. Plus a Dr. J cameo that we broke down for five solid minutes. So check that out. Check out the big picture with Sean Fantasy and Amanda Dobbins. They broke down all of the Oscar nominations for 2024. There were snubs. People were mad. I was surprised Gretter Lee didn't get nominated. That was for past lives. That was the one that shocked me. But I think she was so bad in the morning show that maybe they penalized her for the Oscar for past lives, but she was awesome in past lives. So that was my big one. Gerard Butler, I think, got snubbed for whatever terrible action movie he made. The Oscar should have a category that's just like the most watchable bad movies of the year. There should be something.


Maybe I should just start my own oscars. I'm going to work on that. We have a new podcast that came out this week. It's all three episodes of an american scandalval hosted by Jody Walker. It is on the Ringer Dish podcast feed, which is great, which also has guilty pleasures, which I might pop on there from time to time. This podcast taking a funny, irreverent, satirical, true crime deep dive into Scandalval, a reality tv cheating scandal on Vanderpump rules that took a life of its own and rocked the world of reality tv, turned viewers into amateur detectives. They were sharing clues. They were piecing together the story. And you can relive it all through Jody's eyes. It's a great way to prep yourself for season eleven of Vanderpump rules. So check that out on ringer dish. Coming up, Kevin O'Connor and Joe House talking about everything that went on in Milwaukee today. Adrian Griffin fired after 43 games and they hired a new coach, which I'll get to in 1 second. And then I brought my dad on. After we talked NBA for an hour with house and KFC, I brought my dad on to give his Boston sports report.


It had not happened in a while, so he gave his thoughts on going all the celtic games, what the Patriots are like post Belichick, are Red Sox fans mad at the Red Sox? And so on. So this is an action packed pod it's also a sad pod for me because I lost. We were. He was supposed to be on this podcast every three weeks during the regular season, and then the playoffs were going to amp it up to every two weeks. We were going to be doing live shows. And it all went sideways because he was hired to replace Adrian Griffin as the Milwaukee Bucks coach. It's interesting because I've actually become friends with Doc and I've spent a little time with him and it really seemed like he was enjoying not having a coach and to just. He was doing ESPN games, flying around, popping in, talking on a mic for a couple hours with Doris and Mike Breen, and then he was doing this podcast. Every once in a while, he's spending more time with his grandkids. He's playing golf. He was absolutely loving not, you know, he's been in basketball his whole life, and he's been in the NBA, really since the early 80s, give or take one or two years where he wasn't coaching.


And I just think people are wired a certain way. If you're a competitive MFR and you think you're done. And now I'm not going to rule out, I'm not going to coach. And then all of a sudden, there's Milwaukee. There's Yanis, one of the 20 best porters of all time who's already won a title. There's Milwaukee, where he went to college. There's Dame, who's never even gotten to the finals. There's a team that seems like it's off for whatever reason. Can you fix it and your juices start flowing and all of a sudden, there you go. All of a sudden, you're the coach of the Milwaukee Bucks. This is, I guess, what happens to the super duper competitive NBA people. You can't resist a challenge. I am really bummed because loved, absolutely loved doing the pod with, you know, I'm sure we'll do a couple more down the road, but going to really miss having him on the podcast, and it's going to be weird to wish him well on Milwaukee, a team that my favorite team has to try to beat for the rest of the season and in the playoffs. But best of luck to our guy, Doc Rivers.


That's it. I'm down to two Rivers on the Ringer podcast network. I guess we're going to have to negotiate with other members of the Rivers family. Good luck, Doc. All right, let's bring a pearl. Jim raided to take my podcast on Tuesday until a little later because I felt like something was going down today, but I thought it was going to be a trade. And then Terry, Roger and Kyle Lowry, that trade happens. I'm like, okay, that's good enough. We'll get that going. Little Lakers Clippers tonight. And then Adrian Griffin gets fired out of nowhere, and I'm doing a documentary shoot that all of a sudden my phone starts blowing up. 43 games. And then Kevin O'Connor, Joe Houser here. I went from being like, holy shit, I can't believe they. And then the doc Rivers stuff started and I was like, oh, my God, doc's only been on this podcast five times. I love having Doc Rivers. It's been so much fun. You're taking Doc Rivers for me. Koc help explain any of this to us.


I mean, I'm mostly disappointed that Doc is going to be ripped away from you. He's been great this year. It's too bad. But look, I think for the Bucks, this has been going on a long time with them. Like it first started before the season. Terry Stotts gets berated. He walks away from the team. Earlier in the season, four games in, the Bucs, veterans asked Griffin to change the defensive scheme back to having Brooke Lopez and drop. They were playing a very aggressive scheme that resembled what the Raptors were doing where Griffin was an assistant in recent years. So they go back to dropping with Brooke Lopez, but everything else is pretty much the same. Giannis and Portis are switching on ball screens more than they ever have. They're playing aggressive. Their pickup point on ball handlers is higher than it was before. And by pulling these bigger defenders, Giannis Portis, away from the paint, they are giving up more offensive rebounds than ever before. They're allowing more at rim chances ever than ever before. And I know, like the argument to.


All of the defense, wait, hold. You're. You're not seeing the force through the trees here. We saw it in Vegas, and we both did podcasts when we were there, and we were like, something's off with this team. It wasn't just the defensive stuff. It seemed like Giannis was out, and we were sitting there watching it going, what's going on? Why isn't he in the huddle? Waz and I talked about it that night. We're like, something is wrong. What is it? So you think it was all the defensive stuff, or was it more than.


I mean, I think the tactical side of things is what played into the lack of trust and belief in him. I think for the team we saw earlier in the year where Giannis, or maybe it was Griffin, after a game admitted that Giannis changed a play call that he made. We saw Giannis early in the season refuse to sub out of the game. I think early in the year, tactical driven decisions, the system changes that were made that made the team say, wait a minute, like, what are we doing? We were just a dominant defense for five straight years. We had no issues allowing Atram's chances and now everything's changing all of a sudden.


Yeah, but KSC, one of the reasons they were a dominant defense was because they had drew holiday on their team and not Dame Lillard. House. We talked about this when we did over unders. It's like you've cool Dame Lillard, good end of the game guy, 25 to 30 points a game, couldn't guard us. So are you surprised that it went this bad this fast or did you think this was an after the season thing?


Well, I do think that dame probably could guard us. I do think that, but, well, you.


Just got your hip replaced.


And some other parts. But look, I will say this when you have the kind of expression of lack of confidence so early on. I mean, Koc was running through the litany of questionable team commitment and Bobby Portis called the coach out during the in game tournament. Like after, like that was December. You can't call the brand new coach out. So there was definitely something in terms of that relationship between the coach. He failed the most important task, the number one task upon arrival, get buy in, get the guys on, and then.


He fires Terry Stottz or Terry Stottz leaves or whatever happened. I guess Terry Stottz decided to exit stage right before the season even started. And Dame was clearly bummed out about that. Giannis was clearly bummed out about all the Griffin defensive stuff. So we didn't even start of the season and people are upset, right?


Yeah. So here we are.


Well, here's my take, guys. I think yet again we have learned that maybe NBA players, especially NBA players like under 30 years old, might not be the best guys to decide who should be on the team and who should be coaching it. Because Yanis, they push out coach Bud. I don't know who was responsible for that, but I don't think you run decisions like that without running it through your superstar. And then the Dame trade was the other one where Yanis wouldn't sign the extension until they did something. You got to do something. So they do this dame trade and you look at what Miami gave up for Roger today. I'm not saying Roger is better than Dame, but they gave up, what, 25% of what they were ready to give up for Dame. They got to keep Haquez, they got to keep other first round picks, and they end up with Roger, who's going to give them 80% of the offensive production at Dame, better defense, and they still have all these other assets to do stuff. So I think with Yanis, sometimes superstars in the NBA can become too powerful. And I wonder in this case, were they so afraid of losing him that that leads to decision a, decision b, decision c, and now they're basically reset buttoning it.


I don't think you could bring in any coach and I don't think it's going to fix some of the defensive stuff. Do you think, Koc? I mean, Dame's been one of the worst defensive players in the league for the last couple of years out of all the.


I mean, that's where I disagree, though. I think with Drew Holiday. If he were still on this team, the Bucs would be worse. One of the reasons why they have a record as good as they do is because Giannis has dragged them to some victories. Dame has made heroic shots and end of games like he did earlier this month with that overtime logo, three against the Kings. Those guys, Yanis and Dame have just overcome some of the issues they've had.


So you would think Dame has, too. I know they've stolen some games at the end, but I think for the most part he's been pretty hit or miss. Like he's had a bunch of three for. He's gotten lit up by, I mean, Indiana. They have the Milwaukee game circled on their calendar because it's so much fun for Halliburton. So I don't know. I feel on the one hand I see what you're saying, but on the other hand it's like, all right, well, you do have Giannis and he's been healthy the whole year. You're probably going to have around this record anyway.


I just don't think Drew holiday is solving all of the defensive issues they have. Like, yes, he'd help at the point of attack, that's for sure. They've struggled with isn't has never been a stopper. He's not even hustling back on defense enough. Malik Beasley is worse than Grayson Allen, for that matter, and Pat Connington has not been productive this year. So their point of attack defense is weak. But because their point of attack defense is weak, the way they're playing, by pulling Giannis and Bobby Portis away from the rim the way they intended on having Brooke Lopez away from the rim earlier in the season has to create a situation where they don't have as much size inside to stop that penetration that's occurring. They don't have as much size inside to get defensive rebounds. They're worse this year than they've ever been under bud. So I think for the Bucks, it's all of these things combined. And yes, Drew Holiday would help, but he wouldn't be the complete cure for their issues.


House, you can't say it's just Drew Holiday, though, because it's Drew Holiday. It's Grayson Allen, who's been, I wasn't a fan heading into the season, but he has been one of the best three point shooters in the league this year, plus the other assets that they gave up which crippled them. So now they have nothing they can trade. I mean, they can't really move any of their first round picks. So I guess the question is, would you still do the dame trade or would you rather have Drew holiday? Grayson Allen, whatever else, they gave up all the picks and the flexibility to maybe go get Terry Rosier, to maybe get some of the pieces that are going to be available in February because I was on the record when it happened. I didn't like the dame trade and I thought people were really underestimating his defense. So where do you stand 43 games in?


I like the dame trade and I think it still has a very good chance of proving out. We are going to have that referendum now, right? We're 41 games in, whatever, 43 games in now. We're going to see, because to Koc's point, this team lost a core concept, a core identity. They're 25th in opponent points in the paint this season. They were 13th in that category last year. They're 23rd in opponent fast break points. They were eigth in that category last year. So teams, they can't protect the paint and teams are getting out and running on them. And that is a function of scheme. There is some kind of mismatch going on there between the personnel that they have and what Griffin was trying to do. So we expect that doc will come in, be a stabilizing influence and figure out a way. If it's doc, sure, we'll keep using that caveat until it becomes doc. But look, we're going to figure it out. The thing that we knew for sure, and I do give the Bucks credit for this, this team was going nowhere in the playoffs. This version playing the way that they were playing.


We didn't need to see any more games and they didn't either. It's why they were going to know the report was it Mark Spears was saying the front office was showing up at practice the last two weeks to watch Chris Haynes. It was Chris Haynes on the floor watching Griffin conduct these practices. They're like, you know what? We're not going anywhere in the playoffs. With this iteration, we must do something different. I still wonder if there isn't. They need a body. They still need a body. To my way of thinking, and it's got to.


Well, there's this new rule with the signing buyout guys that if they make over 12.4 million, if you're over those aprons, you can't even sign him. Know about that rule today? So Kelly Olynix at like 12.2. It should almost call it the Kelly Olynick whatever house you say. All that Milwaukee bucks on Fanduel right now, plus 220 to win the conference. Are you taking that? Yeah. Thumbs down. That's what I thought.


Not even close. I already bet this. I bet it today. I'll tell you who I bet.


Who'd you bet?


The Miami Heat. At 13 to one. The reigning Eastern Conference champions. The undisputed Eastern Conference. They won two of the last four. If you go back ten years. Look at all the times the Heat have won the Eastern 13 to one right now with Rosier.


I know, it's ridiculous.


They have another move to make. They kept their powder dry. There's still a move for the Heat, so I'll stop now.


But KSC, I tried not to tweet about the roger trade too much because I knew I was going to talk about today in the podcast. But Miami was always the team I was afraid of in the east. We'll see what the Philly trade is. I'm not there with Philly yet. I know. Indeed looked awesome against Zach Collins and a 200 pound french guy last night, but until he does it in the playoffs once, I'm just not going to get super scared. Sorry. And with that said, I've loved how Abed is playing this year. I'm just saying I don't think they have enough yet. Miami was the sleeping giant for me. This Roger Lowry trade was so obvious that I talked about it in detail on my podcast on Thursday. It was just the most obvious trade. It was the best home for him. Roger is playing great and Lowry was a complete bust for them for the last like twelve games. I mean, he was one of the worst players in the league. So upgrade. Plus they kept a little left and I still feel like, as a celtic fan, as somebody that follows the league, Miami, to me, is still the threat.


And philly, I know they haven't beaten Maxi Milwaukee. I know they have Giannis, I know they have Dame. But I'm still afraid of Miami the most. Who are you most afraid of if you're Boston in the east?


Definitely Miami. The way Jimmy Butler levels up his play in the postseason, and I think that's a big part of it, like what he did against the Bucks last year in the first round. Drew holiday even couldn't stop him at that. Like, we just saw that a couple months ago with Jimmy Butler just getting through Drew holiday with ease. So I don't think there's really a lot of answers for him on the Boston side or any side with the way he levels the. I think that Rosier acquisition, like, you're right, Bill. Like talking about him last week. Think about what he was when he was in Boston. He was nowhere near as efficient as a shooter, and he is now better decision maker now than he was then. I can't wait to see him playing with the most talent that he's had by his side since he was a young player in Boston. Like the bam, out of bio two man game that they could have with Rosier. That could be nasty. So I think with Rosier, we said it all year on the mismatch, too. Like one of the more underrated trade targets in the entire league, and they keep getting them for what they did.


Feels like a major steal. You can't bet.


Yeah, because especially, like, pretty cheap contract, right? He's like 22 a year. Part of the problem with the dame contract is you were all in with that point. You're paying 50, 52, 55, 60. You're giving up every asset you have. And if it doesn't 100% work out, you're in the situation Milwaukee is in now where it's like, okay, this isn't totally working out, and we have no moves whatsoever. Roger, with the size of that contract, he's movable. If it doesn't totally work out, I don't know why it wouldn't work out, though.


Yeah, but how much of the Dame analysis, how much of that, again, is due to Griffin? Like, Yanis and Dame run like ten pick and rolls a game. They don't run dribble handoffs together. Dame is not used in the type of dynamic offensive role that he had with Portland. So, yes, Dame's numbers are slightly down. Offensively, yes, he is a weaker defender than Drew holiday was. They are down they are, especially compared to last season when he posted career highs across the so. But how much of that is due to the fact that despite how good the Dame Giannis pick and roll has been, they're just not doing enough of it? So I don't know. I think with to, I want to wait there and see what the new coach does with him because Dame, I still think there's way more that they can get out of him to even properly assess what that Bucks decision looks like in hindsight because I still was in favor of them getting Dame Drew holiday. He puts up Eric Bledsoe type of numbers in the postseason. He has not been a great postseason performer on offense. He has not stopped the guys that.


He won a title.


Jimmy Butler he did champion for sure.


For sure.


But ever since then, I mean, like Giannis last year, one of the reasons better than Dame, but one of the reasons why Giannis threw Bud under the bus after they lost in the first round, because he wanted a chance to defend Butler, because Drew Holliday, this all world defender, wasn't able to get stops.


House I have to do this and I'm going to give it a big, proper just, I don't want this to get aggregated without people pointing out that this is just a theory. Giannis probably coach Bud's blood on his hands. Adrian Griffin probably his blood on his hands.


That's true.


Drew Holiday's blood and Grayson Allen's blood all over his hands. Does Giannis get enough credit for just being a coach teammate killer? Should he be put on the elite list of people who's just wreaked havoc on their own franchises? Because we all love Giannis. He seems like a great guy, but, man, imagine if, like, I don't know if Kevin Durant was doing this and it was like, Kevin Durant's had two coaches fired in an eight month span and made all these trades. We'd be like, okay, Yanis, like nothing. Crickets.


I mean, they are 33 and ten, right? He was injured in the first round of the playoffs against the Heat last year. They lost because he was hurt. He played hurt. And I don't mind how I'm going to do glass half full here, okay? He's trying to make things happen. He understands. He's not going to sit idly by and say, let's just try and get marginally better on the margins year over year. Let's take big swings. I want to win every single year. I don't want to have to come in here and have to answer a question to this reporter about is it a failure that we lost in the first round of the playoffs? Yes, it's a goddamn failure. We should be trying to win the championship every year because I'm the best player in the world or maybe the second best. But look, that's fine. And him urging the organization to take another path in terms of the coach, fine. And making a pivot right away. It's not working. 33 and ten is excellent and getting Dame is excellent. And we can't win with what we have right now. Let's make a change.


I'm fine with it.


Well, when you say big swing, by the way, they're 30 and 13. I know you're old, but I just wanted to correct that for you. 30 and 13 is a little different than 33 and ten. Okay, I know we're both old. I make plenty of those mistakes, so I'm going to cut you some slack on that. When you say taking big swings, do you mean like hiring Adrian Griffin over Nick Nurse? How do we explain that one? Mean, that almost looks worse than any single bucks move, right?




Nick Nurse, been pretty solid on the Sixers. Won a title once upon a time. They're like, no, let's go with this guy who's never coached before.


Yeah, Mark Stein had on his substack today, said that Giannis's, I guess, motivation behind the Griffin call for him was just, he was just like, never Nick Nurse. He just didn't want to have Nick Nurse as his head coach. I guess they didn't click when they met, but with Griffin, I guess when.


You'Re a coach and teammate killer, it's tough. I'm still joking. Don't aggregate this. We're taking a break. Come back, talk a lot more. Hey, if you've been watching the NFL playoffs from the sidelines, there's still time to get in the game with FanDuel, America's number one sportsbook, new customers bet this Sunday's conference championship games with $150 in bonus bets guaranteed when you place your first $5 bet. And guess what? Fando has so many ways for you to pick up A-W-I am doing million dollar picks on Thursday's podcast, and we have been red hot. We were down almost $2 million after week eight, rallied back. Now we're over $3 million, doing really well in the playoffs. And just telling you now, I like the Chiefs, so the Chiefs will be involved in whatever my same game parlay is for this weekend. You can trail it. You can go to Fanduel right now, get started with $150 of bonus bets guaranteed when you place your first $5 bet. Visit bs to join today that is Bs. Make every moment more with FanDuel, an official sportsbook partner of the NFL, you must be 21 plus in president select states gambling problem.


Call win 800 gambler. Visit RG $5 pregame moneyline wager required first online real money wager only $10 1st deposit required bonus issued as non withdrawable bonus bets that expire seven days after receipt. Cterms at sportsbook all right, so the Celtics are 34 and ten, Milwaukee's 30 and 13 and Phillies 29 and 13. Cleveland somehow is lingering as the four seed at 26 and 15. Nobody can figure this out. Milwaukee's record feels like it should be about four wins less. They've stolen some games late, but on the other hand, now maybe they go on a run. The philly piece of this Embiid's been incredible. The game last night was unlike. It really felt like he could get 80. He's making 20 footers and 25 footers and he's spinning around. He's just getting fouled. He makes every free throw he takes. He is the most unfallible big man we've had because it's just like he's just going to get two points immediately. On the other hand, it was San Antonio, but he has looked awesome. KFC, what does that team need? If you're the GM or you're the advisor? And it seems like they have spots basically for two trades.


They could have done like a Roger type trade. They could still get an Alex Caruso type of person. They could get like a Bogdanovich from Detroit. Maybe they could go all in on a Dejante Murray. I'm figuring, let's say you give them a starter and a bench player in the trade market, who are the ideal two people you would look at?


I'd want to be looking for an upgrade over Tobias Harris and Anthony Melton. Those guys have been solid this year. For the Sixers, to be clear, they've been rock solid. But if you're looking for that third creation option, you have the Embiid maxi two man game. But who is going to be the Michael Porter Jr. Or the Aaron Gordon to the Jokic Murray two man? Who's that guy Gordon for the Nuggets? We saw he was beaten up on mismatches on post ups. Michael Porter Jr. Can go off. Who's that guy for the Sixers so I think the number one guy that besides Terry Rosier, who did make a heck of a lot of sense, Zach Levine being the other big name player.


That people talk about, KFC is like his last.


No, he's. No, I'm not.


You're on Zach Levine island. No, admit it, you have a property there. You have like a small beach house on Levine island.


No, I'm intrigued by what he would look like playing with a player of the level of Embiid. But would he be the guy that I'd go for? Not necessarily. I'd rather wait and hold on to cap space this summer and figure things out then. But if I'm the Sixers, I want a guy like a Caruso, just somebody who can fit into that system. Or DeMar DeRozan even like. Rather than Levine, expiring contract, add a little bit of a mid range and he's been shooting more threes than ever before. I'd be going for DeRozan, Caruso, that combination, because that gives you the defense, it gives you the creation, it gives you the hustle with Caruso, it gives you the experience with it's so you're.


Thinking like that's Tobias Harris, Marcus Morris's contract and some picks and a swap, and you get both of those guys.


Something along those lines where you get that because there's no overlap between DeMar DeRozan and Tyrese maxi. They're different types of scorers. With the way they crunch time, you're.


Going Embiid Batum, DeRozan, Caruso and Maxi.


That sounds pretty good, right?


What do you think has.


Yeah, it does sound pretty good. I was kind of surprised in the context of the hornets in this kind of tear down mode. And I'm going to lose so much money on my Hornets over 30 wins bet.


Well, we said that during the over under pod. That was the stupidest fucking.


No, that one wasn't the dumbest. The dumbest was the Hornets have talent. The Hornets have talent. They just can't all be healthy on the same floor. But the name that I saw show up today and in a potential combo deal with the Suns, which I still don't understand, how could the Suns have anything left to give anybody? Miles Bridges, now obviously that's a complicated person, a complicated figure, but Miles bridges on the Sixers, that to me is super. Like, that's a guy that can get tough buckets and what that team needs to me, end of game, 5 minutes left, 4 minutes left. It's why DeRozan is a great call. In terms of a fit. He can get buckets. He doesn't need the ball all the time. I think Bridges would be incredible on this team.


My number one pick is DeRozan. I was just watching him. Didn't they play last night?




Guess who can still get really good shots in the last 5 minutes of a game? Derozan. Also two point shots, which honestly is the biggest flaw of the Celtics right now. We saw it on Friday night in that Denver game. Just Denver's ability to just get good shots in the last 5 minutes of a game, which is their biggest skill. That's their superpower. Just every shot I like and Boston for 43, 44 minutes. I love all the shots I get last 4 minutes. Everything slows down. KP is over on the side now like he was in Dallas. He's not involved at all. The guards aren't involved and it's Tatum and Brown and it's one on one stuff. And it's just not smart basketball. And that's why I think they have nine losses, Koc and eight. They were tied in the last 2 minutes. But I really worry about their ability to execute. If the Sixers got de Rosen now you're protected because I think you can shut down two scores. Embiid and max. I know Embiid is having a great year. I know max is really good. But if I'm only worrying about two guys, I'm fine.


But now if I have a third guy that can take the pressure off, who can go for 35 in a game three, where it's like, oh, we didn't even need Embiid and max tonight. The rosen went nuts. I just think he would fit in with what they do. And the only thing I would say about getting rid of Tobias, who I think has been in trade rumors now for ten years, awesome teammate, knows his role, doesn't really care if he gets shots like he's 17 a game, he could probably do a little bit better than that and I'd be really hesitant. This team seems like it really likes each other. The contrast I know you talked about on the mismatch last night, Koc, but the contrast between Embiid chasing 70 versus towns chasing 70 and what was going on with that Minnesota team was night and day. That whole philly team, they were going for it for indeed. They were all locked in. They really wanted it. And I don't know, man, when your chemistry is good, the Celtics are in the same spot. They have awesome chemistry. It's going to be really hard for them to make a know.


It's going to have to be cosmetic, but I think we're all aligned. Levine is the home run swing, but I think that the downside is too risky for what his contract is. Right? What's his contract? KFC.


He currently is being paid $40 million, and this is the first of four years remaining. So he's going to be making near 50 by the end of that. And for what it's worth, bill, I just pulled up the trade machine. They don't need to give up Tobias Harris in that deal. Let's say they were to get Derosen and Caruso, they'd be taking in $38 million. They could get to 36 million with Morris.


So you could do Cummings and Morris.


And you could keep Harris in that situation.


God, that's my nightmare as a celtic fan at that trade right there.


What are they giving the Bulls? What do the Bulls get for that?


Just a lot of picks and some swaps and expiring.


They're going to do the Wizards plan. They're going to become the Wizards.


Okay, I guess my question with the Bulls, I know this is crazy, but I'm not positive I would do anything unless it was an awesome trade. I kind of like the Bulls. Like they're nine right now. They're 21 and 24. I get it. But they sucked in the beginning of the year. I think they have a chance potentially to climb to seven or eight and I wouldn't want to see them in a one game. Whatever. I actually think they're pretty good. House, you're making a face. Have you watched the bowls? They're pretty good.


They're the same as last year. They were 3 minutes away from.


They're not the same playoffs. I know Kobe White's totally different than he was last year.


I don't think they're better. I think they're largely the same.


Well, Koc, they're the trade machine team this year because if they say fuck it now, Vusevich might be available. He makes sense on a bunch of different teams. DeRozan, if they can get rid of Levine, patrick Williams. So they have to figure out how to pay. I guess you've already dove into this draft. It's probably the worst draft in eleven years, right? It's the worst draft since 2013. Has there been a worst draft? The worst draft of the century was 2000. The second worst draft is 2013. And this is the third worst draft.


Yeah. I think in the middle of the draft there's like good quality role players that you can add alongside a star, but there's not necessarily that face of your franchise in this year's draft. So it's weak star power especially.


I know exactly how this is going down.




You could get the fourth pick in the draft and you're getting like a project.


It's a bad draft for the Wizards, but it's a good draft for a team like the Thunder where you can add a role player to enhance an SGA and Chet Holmgren like that type of situation. It's bad for you. House, I'm sorry.


Sorry, house.


This is a multi year project.


The poor Pistons. It's probably bad for from a celtic standpoint. I just think Pritchard, they got to fix that. You could feel it in the Denver game. Even my dad was saying it because my dad went to that game. He was like, Pritchard was just too small in that know he's playing big minutes and there was a couple moments in that game where it was reaching. We got to put the real guys back in because this lineup's not working territory. But I think they need a guard with size to come off the bench so they have more length at all times. And I'm not sure who that person is. Do you have any idea? KFC.


He doesn't have length. But from the oh, you beat me to it.


I was going to do a quiz. I wanted to do a quiz. I wanted to say who leads the NBA at assist to turnover ratio and I wanted Koc probably would have got it, but Tyus Jones, yeah, he's, he's going to be an awesome role player. He just isn't very big. And I'll say this very quietly because I absolutely admire him and he has made an immediate good impression here in the DC area. He doesn't really play any defense.


He can't really play any defense.


Maybe it's the system in Washington, but he's too small.


Well, I'll tell you, he's in a lot of their worst lineups. So you look at the four man rotate four man best and worst five man.


What's the best lineup?


The really bad lineups. Koc did what happened with towns last night make you think we can't rule him out for the trade deadline? I don't want to say his coach threw him under the bus. I think his coach was driving the bus and just kept backing up over him and then running over him and backing up again. I've never seen that in my life.


Yeah, it was like he was playing grand theft auto. Just run a character back over and over again. That press conference was something else.


It was unparalleled. I also had the game on because I was watching basketball last night with my dad and towns was at like 40. So we put it on and it was the unhappiest run to 70 points I've ever watched. And then they benched him, and I was googling. I thought we missed, like, him fouling out. And I'm like, I'm looking at the box score, he's two fouls. I'm searching on Twitter and it's just like, town's benched. Town's benched. And it was a bunch of those. But I promise that's never happened in the history of the NBA before. A guy getting benched when he has 62 points, much less 52, much less 42. What's the lowest highest point total? To get benched? It has to be at least 38. So you're not a little concerned about your t wolves there?


I mean, look, at the beginning of the season, I said to Verno that I think Towns is the guy they're going to have to trade in order to become a championship contender. But he's done everything that he needed to do this year. He's been good on defense, he's filled his role offensively. But last night, a lot of that.


Stuff came back up.


It was an immature team. Like Finch said after the game, they played an immature style. There was the report about how at halftime they saw him bead had 70, and they're like, oh, we got to go get cat. More than that. So I worry about that team's maturity level, and maybe that will have to come this offseason, but I can't imagine it in the weeks ahead.


That's amazing. He's not on the Wizards house.


Give it time. The crazy thing is, how can Mike Conley be that important? He is literally the only adult on that team. And it's true. Look at the roster. There's nobody else that can come in and be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's win this basketball game. The most important thing tonight is to win the basketball game. So it's fourth quarter. Let's do the things that help us win the basket. This is great, Kat.




You shot the lights out. It looked great. Now let's win the effing basketball game. And not one person because Conley wasn't there. That's bad. They need one more. I don't know what adults are going to be available, but they need another adult before we start taking that team like legit seriously come spring.


Well, it's not a lot to trade for them. They basically have the Kyle Anderson expiring and they could do some seconds, I guess, but I don't think they have a ton. I got to say, the more I watch them and I've been pretty fascinated by them, I'm not positive. Like if you told me this team is going to make the Finals or this team is going to lose in the first round and you gave me ods for both, I think I would pick first round.




Over the finals. I don't think that's a controversial take because making the finals is nuts. But to me I still feel like the seesaw is a little more. And I think the Wolves are really good. They're 30 and 13, but there's a knucklehead factor with them that cannot be overlooked. We've just seen it too many times with the NBA, these teams that look good on paper and then all of a sudden you're down two one in a game four. And guys are chucking up shots and it's like, holy shit. The carpet is being pulled out from under us right now. Who is going to grab the steering wheel? And then it's like Anthony's like, I got it. He's 22. Or Townsend is like, clear out. I got it. And now all of a sudden you're down three one. And there's an athletic piece about the team's worried about the Chris Finch in the play. We know this. We know how this goes. Go ahead, house.


To be fair, did you see the last two minute report from that game?


Well, got murdered on the last drive.


I couldn't believe there were that twelve missed calls. I don't know if that's a record. Somebody should look it up and see. Twelve missed calls in the last 2 minutes. And yes, they greatly benefited the Hornets. I don't know, maybe the NFL ref that's got the Chiefs game also did the last 2 minutes. A lot of conspiracies out there right now.


Oh my lord. Knicks would be the other one. That could greatly benefit from one more move and are kind of lurking here in the five seed. But I don't know how to take them seriously. Unless it's not a giant trade with Randall in it. And I don't know who that's for unless it's for towns. Is there any sort of Randall trade do you have in your head, Koc?


What about Evan Fornier trade? I don't think it has to be Randall necessarily. You got Fournier making $18 million. Flip him for Bruce Brown, who already has said I'm a Tom Tibeto player. He talked about it openly, which was surprising that he actually said that in front of the media. But I don't think you need to. I'm not a big Randall guy, but at the same time, you see what Randall is when he's actually turning it up and he's playing at eleven and not in his mopey mode, which he gets into sometimes. I think you got to give it a try with Randall at the level he's playing at right now, he's been better than he's ever been, even his all NBA season. So if you can flip the Fournier contract to me, that's the move. And then you reassess the summer with that Randall deal. Depending on how the postseason goes.




It'd be irresponsible not to trade Fornier. This was an issue the Celtics had, remember, at the late 2010s where they never had the $16 to $20 million expiring to put in trades and add stuff to and that Fornier thing to be able to get up to like $22 million of somebody. To me, House Bogdanovich on Detroit is the great stealth prize right now. Roger was the great stealth prize, but he just went. But Bogdanovich is somebody like, that's somebody for Philly, too. We talked about two scores is not quite enough. Harris is putting up points, but I wouldn't say he's somebody that you'd run plays for at the end of a game. Bagdanovich can come in and run your offense for like four or 5 minutes and he could run an entire second unit. And it just has been in big games and is the type of guy that I think for the Knicks would really help. I think Philly would be amazing. Trying to think there was one other team. Well, Phoenix can't get anybody. But what do you think about Donovich has?


I totally agree and he absolutely checks the box in terms of ready for that moment, ready for playoff game winning, making a real contribution. You had him come playoff time. I know, and he was very good.


Yeah. You loved him. I also love Bogdanovich.


I wanted them to resign him. I mean, that run where we took the Celtics to game seven, he was important in that.


It's funny that you wanted the Wizards to overspend on somebody versus how it usually went, where the Wizards would overspend on somebody and you would be horrified. But in that case, you actually would not have been horrified because you like Bogdanovich. And of course they let that guy go. At least it feels like you're winning the Bradley Beale trade. Oh, no, you're not winning that trade either.


We did win. He's not on the team. That was the win.


You feel like that was a w. That might be the rarely seen nobody won trade. You might be able to talk yourself into Phoenix because beals look better the last like week and a half or so, but I don't trust it.


There was no point for him to be here in Washington. So him not being on the team is the win.


KFC. You see House's body language like you bring the Wizards up and he just immediately gets sad. He looks like Sal after the Dallas loss. It's just like the life goes right off.


That was a sad part.


So KFC, what else are you looking at? Because somehow the trade deadline. I've already sent a note to everyone I know who's in charge of stuff at the NBA. Like, hey, dudes, maybe don't have the trade deadline. Super bowl week Thursday. If you could, as somebody who runs a company that produces content in sports and culture, not an awesome day for us. Like we're kind of have football that week. Just can you nudge it a week and then you'll own the five days around the trade deadline? That would be cool, but no. So it's Thursday. It's in a couple of weeks. KFC. Is there a surprise team you're thinking could get frisky?


The team I've been obsessed with for trades is the Sacramento Kings because they were in on OG, in on Siakham. They don't get either of those guys. I think they're a team that needs to make a move. They should be trying to maximize the season. You don't know how long the window is going to be open. Denver is a team trying to go back to back. That's hard to do. OKC's not experienced yet. There's a window open here, which is why I respect even the pacers being aggressive. Going for Siakam and why the Kings going for OG, for the Knicks. Going for OG makes sense. So for the Kings, what are you going to do with Harrison Barnes, with Kevin Herder, who's been underperforming? What are you going to do with your remaining picks? If I were them, I'd be going. You mentioned Bogdanovich. I had the idea and want to call him recently. I said, why not go for Bogdanovich from the Pistons and Jeremy Grant from the Blazers to me, like you called Bogdanovich double down your stealth target my stealth target is Jeremy Grant. He's not readily available right now, but he kind of fits the type of he can do the Aaron Gordon esque things for a team, especially a team that runs the offense that the Kings do.


I'd love to see him there and he'd add a lot to their defense in terms of helped room protection and on ball versatility. I'd be going after Grant if I were a bunch of teams with what he can do offensively and defensively.


What do you have has for your stealth team?


I don't have a stealth team. I mean, I'm looking at these teams that have veterans that are vulnerable to injury. Like the Clippers need additional depth because now they've put themselves in a position where I think they are absolutely live to win the conference.


Like, I can't believe. You know, I agree. It's unbelievable.


It all boils down to one proposition. Will those three guys be healthy in April and May and Jeremy Grant in that situation, though? I don't know. Because of the constant deck chair shuffling that they've been engaged in the last two years. I don't have enough brain capacity to manufacture what they need, engineer what they need. But the Lakers are also right there.


Wait, hold on, hold. The Clippers.


Go ahead.


They love Terrence, man. They wouldn't include him in the hardened trade, and it was allegedly a stickler for how that went. But as you watch this team playing together, to me he's the expendable guy. Like, if they were going to improve a piece of that team, I think Terrence Mann is the one that's, it's been the clumsiest with how it's fitting with those other guys. You see them on the bench in crunch time a lot. They'll either go, they'll have powells out there sometimes, but just in general, I feel like they could get away with not having him, especially if Kawhi is going to look like 2019 Kawhi again and Paul George, those guys are 35 to 38 minutes a game in the playoffs, plus Harden, plus Norm Powell. The thing I feel like they need the most is some sort of, like, Roger would have been unbelievable for them, but some sort of guard who could, what? Who, a catch and shoot guard who could also defend. And I do wonder, Koc, would they get frisky with that with Terrence Mann? Would that be? Because I do think he has real value because I think he's good, but he might be a little redundant on this team.


What do you think?


How about it fell apart during the summer. But how about Malcolm Brogden? Try again this time.




And have him kind of fits what.


You'Re Terrence, man, and contract and make that work. Yeah.


Well, because Tucker could be traded as well for the Clippers. So you get some contract.


Tucker plus Terrence, man. Now I'm in the could throw Westbrook in there. Now I'm in the 25 range. And now I basically could get anybody under 30 million if I wanted to. I have a stealth team, but we're going to take one more break. All right, my stealth trade deadline team. Who do you think it is, KFC?


Since you stopped House from saying Lakers. Is it the Lakers? But they're not stealth, though. Unless you have an idea.


I would have.


Nobody's talked about.


What do you got, house?


I think it's the Mavericks. I think you've got Dallas fucking house.


We've known each other 35 years.


Yeah, baby.


LeBron to Dallas. No, I'm just kidding.


The Grant Williams signing is officially a disaster for them. He's been bad for two months. I think he's -14 on off. I don't think they trust him. And I think even worse, I like Grant Williams. He's a guy who played with a ton of confidence, a ton of bravado. Really carried himself like he was one of the best players, even though he wasn't. But that was kind of endearing about him. Frustrating and endearing. And he's just lost his mojo on this Mavericks team. With that said, I think he has some value. So you take him, you got Hardaway making 18. You have Rashawn Holmes, who has a player option next year at twelve, I wonder if this is a Levine team. Koc.




Is that possible? Does it make sense? Is it too weird? Now you have three guys who like the ball, but you have three crazy, explosive scores. Defense, you're just throwing out the window at that point. But could this be a levine team? Could it be a DeRozan team? But could it be just somebody who makes a shitload of money that. Who do you have s. I just.


Want to ask whether you guys think that Brooklyn is going to be a seller. Because if Brooklyn's a seller, there are a lot of pieces on Brooklyn that I like, including, I think Claxton could be the right kind of guy on.


They have to pay him soon, right? Yeah.


Claxton's a free agent this summer. And granted, for the Mavs, they have lively, their rookie center. So maybe they wouldn't want Claxton, but go back and get Finney Smith again from Jesus. But I mean, Levine on the Mavericks is interesting. I don't love the fit. If I'm choosing a team for Zach Levine, I'm choosing the Sixers. If I'm in know circle, that's where I want to go. Dallas is weird because I feel like he'd almost always be the third wheel behind Kyrie and behind Luca. Maybe that's for the best for him. And being in like a supercharged version of Tim Hardaway Jr. Who's getting ten threes a game, Levine would get touches and scoring opportunities. But if I'm Dallas, I'd rather hold on to some of those pieces and go for somebody else that can at least offer some more balance to my team. I mentioned Jeremy Grant. Why not Grant? Because Grant can provide an offensive spark for you. We've seen him be a guy who can score 30 plus points in a game. We know he can be a defensive presence as a rim protector, as a helper inside. He can be versatile on ball.


I'd be going after somebody that offers more two way upside for them than Zach Levine.


What about Ben Simmons? Which one? You guys both froze. Like I wasn't kidding completely. What about my trade?


Yeah, I'd rather trade for yours.


I'm glad Brooklyn was brought up because I think that is the hardest team to figure out as we head toward the trade deadline. Because you could tell me everybody's for sale and all of a sudden three trades will happen in the span of 24 hours and they won't have a team left. You could tell me they're going to fire their coach. That wouldn't surprise me. You could tell me that they godfather offer. Somebody know Donovan Mitchell. They just make some completely insane trade offer for whatever else they have and a bunch of other stuff. I just don't know which way they're going. Like Levine, the fact that their picks going to Houston this year kind of removes the ceiling on what they're capable of because as we discussed earlier, the draft's awful. So maybe it's like, all right, we'll take our lumps this year. The draft is not good anyway. We'll give the 6th pick to Houston. Who cares? Let's try to build something or use this as an opportunity to go get somebody. I guess I don't want to pay Claxton 25 to 30 million a year, do you guys? Because that's probably going to be the price.


So if I was running them, I would trade Claxton to OKC, I would trade off O'Neill and I would trade off Finnny Smith. I would just be thinking that way as sellers, but they might not want to do that because they don't have their pick. What's your intel? Have Koc on?


That's exactly as you said. They're a team that's kind of in between at the crossroads. It reminds me of what people were reporting this past year about Toronto. Toronto split. Do they want to be a team that's trading for veterans? They flirted with KD, or do they want to be a team that ends up rebuilding? They lose van Bleep for nothing. They trade oG, they trade Siakam, so they ended up going that path. The net situation is different because as you said, they don't have their own picks, but they do seem split on what to do because even with Nick Claxton, I understand what you mean about don't want to pay him 2020 $5 million and he's been up and down at times this year, but at the same time, he's one of the most versatile bigs in all of basketball. He's a shop locker. He's an elite finisher at the basket. He can do a little bit out of the short role as a passer. If you pair him with a great point guard, at some point he could come alive. So it's tough with some of these decisions. To me, if I'm Brooklyn, I'm open minded to either of those paths, and I believe that is what they are right now, it's about which team is actually going to make an offer for those guys or is there actually a star player that they could rag or lose?


But that might not happen until the offseason, when some of these teams, they fail in the playoffs and feel like they need a shake up, especially Cleveland, because you're right, Mitchell's the interesting one here. Could he leave? Would he want to go back to New York where he's from?


What does it mean that they're playing better with Garland and Mobley up the shelf? Why are they succeeding more? Losing two really talented guys?


And where they're succeeding is defensively. Their defense has been the thing that's really improved with Mobley not playing. Interesting.


You know who I really like as a trade piece for the Nets that isn't going to get brought up because all these other guys, but, man, Cam Thomas as a playoff guy, to me that's literally exactly what the Lakers need. The Lakers need a feast of famine. This guy came in and scored 37 points out of nowhere against the warriors, and we won because he just went nuts. And that's technically what Russell is supposed to be, but he's just not good enough. But I think there's a couple of teams that could use those high variance guys. That's why Jordan Clarkson is such an interesting trade deadline guy. It's good to have those. Philly needs a guy like that because there's going to be nights when Maxi goes six for 28 and bead gets in foul trouble. And you need that one rando shredder.


Another one like that from Toronto.


Yeah. I think the Miami has always managed to have at least one guy like that on their team that you're just like, wow, this guy, Max Druze just hit six threes. What happened? All right, so to recap, neither of you guys are worried about Milwaukee. You feel like if it's Doc Rivers, if it's whoever, the team is in a better spot than it was 24 hours ago. So that's the opinion. I'm going to probably agree with that just because after what I saw in person in that Vegas game, that the Griffin, the red flag was waving really violently after that game, and it did seem like it was getting much better. We all like the Miami trade for Roger I Koc. You think Miami is not done?


They could be, but I don't think they should be done looking around. But they have a team that they already went to the finals with, a team that didn't have an amazing rookie in Jame Haquez or Terry Rosier offering the upside that he does. So I think they should be looking around or Tyler.




Yeah, hero. Even, even getting better, too. So I think with the Heat, they could be done, but I'd be looking around, at least see what's out there.


If you look at last year's playoffs, they replaced streus with Haquez, they replaced Lowry with Roger, and then they replaced hero injured with hero. Healthy.


Well, gave Vincent with hero.


Oh, gave Vincent with. Yeah, yeah, that's fair. So I'm going to say they're in a better spot. And Butler is just like, I don't care about any words. I'm going to play when I play. You can go to hell. I'm filming a Netflix special. I think it's the right move. I still feel like I was arguing with a Miami fan about this yesterday. I still feel like the Celtics have too much size for them in that if they play them in a series this year, I think Porzingis is a genuine problem for the Heat. I just think he's too big for bam. And that's what I'm thinking with them is if there is one more move with them, is it somebody with a little size and length? Because what they have now is not going to work in a playoff series. So I don't know who that is. Those guys are available. They'll be able to cheat code around that. And then you look at the other side. Clippers we talked about would have to be Terrence Mann. Minnesota really doesn't have a move except Kyle Anderson. OKC has a million moves to make. We just don't even know if they're going to make them.


And then Denver, what happens with them? Koc still feels like they're a dude short. My dad even said that coming home on Friday. He was like that Denver's great. It still feels like they're one dude short. So who is it? Because they do miss Bruce Brown, there's no question.


I don't think so. I think the investment they're making in their young guys is going to be worth it in the end. Peyton Watson, in the time he's been playing this season, has been awesome on defense. He's developed a lot offensively. Christian Brown looks better. I think it's just about developing chemistry. If they're missing one thing, it's an upgrade. Behind Jokic over Deandre Jordan. Zeke dodgy. Their young, kind of more versatile center hasn't panned out as they had hoped. So if they can find a better backup, five to me, that'd be the move.


But I really like to offer Daniel Gafford is that we're not in be.


Would be wonderful for them. I think Nick Richards would be incredible for them. Speaking of guys that are available, I.


Kind of like Nick Richard. Congrats to Charlote, by the way, for finally starting to figure it out. Like maybe let's bottom out and not just randomly spend money on a bunch of dudes and maybe follow what Sam Presto did in OKC and just try to have cap space and young players and rebuild and become a waste station. Basically everything Detroit didn't do just now where Detroit's like no. Marvin Bagley, 13 million. It'll be great.


Brandon Miller looking awesome as well for them.


Yeah, you might have won that one, Kayla. I'm not conceding yet, but you're looking good. You're -400 looking good in the Brandon Miller versus scoot. I do worry that scoot's wearing goggles. I wish I had factored that into my whole evaluation that I didn't realize he was having eyesight issues. But wait scoot. We can't overreact to scoot yet, right? It's still too early.


It's early, but it's been a rough start. But it's definitely.


Thanks, KFC house. Give me one stealth conference finalist winner. If you were on the fanduel board right now, Dallas, I would be to one. Lakers 18 to one. Sacramento 20 to one, New Orleans 20 to one. This is just for the conference. Golden state 31 to one. You like any of those?


No, I'm not messing with the west because the west to me is one of three teams and I can't get over. It's the Lakers, the Clippers or Denver, all things being equal, and the Suns. If the Suns really do have one more move in them, again, I have no idea how they have assets for it. I'm looking to the east for myself.


Wait, you put the Lakers in your three, four?


I have still. There's a move yet to be had for them? Yes, definitely.


Have you watched the Lakers?


There's still a move away. There's still a move. I mean, we were at, this is.


The move getting Joel Embiid.


We were in a very similar spot. They were worse at this point last year. And then they went head to head with the Denver Nuggets and they put up the best contest against Denver Nuggets last year.


They did get swept. They lost by an average of like, what, six points in the series, right?


Yes. It was pretty good.


It was a good season.


Everyone was competitive. They did the best job, did the.


23Rd offense right now, I think if you're in the 19 and below range in any category, I can't take you seriously.


It's January.


But KFC, you agree that's the Levine team? I mean, talk about best fit. I think it's the Lakers. No, you disagree? Who's your best fit?


For the Lakers?


No, for Levine.


Philly? Philly for Levine. He'd be number one for me by far. If I'm Levine, I'd want to be on the Sixers for sure.


You can't put Levine with some bum coach. That's the problem. I can say it.


I'm not mean.


Levine makes sense for the Lakers in terms of, like, having a two man game with AD and how he could play with LeBron. He's LeBron as a screener like you do sometimes with just. I just don't think he adds everything that they need. They still need defense in that backcourt. They need more better point of attack defenders. They're missing, like the Caruso decision, like letting him go leave for Chicago. It looks really bad now with their point of attack defense. That's why they have interest in the Jante Murray. But the thing with Dejante Murray is the fact that you're betting on him returning to form like he used to be in his younger years with San Antonio. He's not been an all defensive caliber defender for years, but I think that's part of their thinking now. And going after a guy like Murray.


If they get Murray and Bruce Brown, which what the swing that they're trying to, then what are they going to be come playoff time?


Yeah, eight man rotation, that could be good.


I do feel like Murray, this is the best time to trade him. Trey Young's hurt. He's putting up huge stats. I was driving, my dad and I were driving to pick up Ben from school yesterday and we were listening to Justin terminate Eddie Johnson. He had never heard them before and he's like, these guys are good. I'm enjoying it. But at one point Eddie was talking about the and and it was like basically predictions for tonight. And I forget what terminies was. Sorry, Justin. And Eddie was like, I think the hawks are going to get killed in Sacramento. He was like, this team, every single person on this team is now in trade rumors. And he's like, you don't understand what that's like when you're on a team like that, where you just feel like, I don't know if I'm going to be here tomorrow, I'm not connected to anything. I might be going, this guy might be traded. That guy might be traded. And he's like, that team's going to quit because there's just too much chaos. And guess what happened? Sacramento beat them 122 to 107 last night. I thought that was interesting.


The point is, you can pass the point in overturn with trade rumors and trade whispers. And I think that team has. So whether they have to move Murray soon, whether they have to move the other Bogdanovich soon, whether to, I don't think they can wait another couple of weeks unless they're trying to sabotage the team. But house, that looks like an l for us with the over both. We like the over for them.


We oversubscribe to the Quinn Snyder mojo. That's really what we did. It was a mistake.


It was not a mojo. It was a. Yeah, but I think that's what's fun about this season and this stretch right now is there's a couple teams that are just like, fuck, what do we do? You want any of our players and we don't usually have that. We usually have teams either talking themselves in the guy that we were having coaches fired already. Last but not least, Koc, what do you think of if doc does get the Bucks job? What's your instant gut reaction to that?


I hope he's better at making adjustments than Boudenholzer, but he has not been in past years. He's coached three teams that have blown three. One leads, in part due to stagnant offense and lack of adjustments. And what the Bucks do need is somebody who's able to make those changes. With that said, he's a better coach than Adrian Griffin. He's a more experienced coach. He's better at building a system, he's better at gaining the respect of his players, and I think that makes it a win for the Bucs. But will it matter most in the postseason? That remains to be a scene with Doc's history in the playoffs.


House, I like that assessment. The only thing that I'll say is I think the body of work for Doc with James Harden through the all star game last year, that to me is like the best reflection of what Doc is capable of. And if it's that Doc because Harden flipped the switch on him, I mean, he just decided to be a different player from the all star game into the playoffs. If Milwaukee has health and Doc is able to maximize that pick and roll, and it's like it's the bread and butter. It's staring us right in the face with Damon and Giannis and they return to the defensive scheme where they're protecting the paint once again. I like Milwaukee a lot in that circumstance with Doc.


Yeah, it's weird because this would be the most normal team he's probably coached since the 2009 Celtics, right? It's like adults. It's the lead guy. What?


He loves.


The lead guy gives a shit night after night more than just about any player we've had in the last ten years. Yanis, I talked about the other day on the pod. He actually almost seems deranged. He's so competitive now. I love it. He's psychotic during these games, and it's like, it's January, dude, settle down. But he's really trying to just dominate and crush everybody, which is awesome. Dame has never made the finals. Then you have Lopez, who's 35. You just got adults all over the place, which I think is a good team for them. He's on that Clippers team that had the Blake and Chris situation just was so weird and went so sideways. He was also running that team, and I'm sure he made a few mistakes, but then the next job is Philly and he deals with Ben Simmons and then James Harden. So this will be the most stable team he's took over in a while. He also gets to go home. So it seems like it's happening. If it happens, it's going to be a hard one for me because I've.


Grown to love Doc and I don't.


Know what I'm going to. I guess I need Steve Kerr to quit. If Doc leaves, I need Steve Kerr to basically say I've had it with coaching. I'm going to take a step back. Steve Kerr takes over Doc's seat with Doris and Mike Breen and takes over his spot on my podcast. Winner everywhere. Come on, Steve. Ker, you don't want to deal with Draymond anymore?


Just come on.


Come to the media side again. It'll be great. Anyway, I got a seat open for Steve. Hey, before we go KFC, did you cross off the warriors? Because House and I crossed them off a week and a half ago.


Let's give it to the deadline. Let's see if they can pull off some magic. But they're pretty close to cross off at this point. I just want to see if they pull off a move.


Something big has Wiggins reached. I need you to attach an asset with him just for me to consider taking him territory.


Yeah, he has. Just like he did at the end of Minnesota, where he was very little value at that point.


House, this guy took my 18th title.


He was great. But in the inimitable words of our beloved Raheem Palmer, that team is deader than fried chicken.


Shout out to Raheem. Who do you have Sunday? Did you decide?


I'm still working it through. The one bet that I've made that I can't wait to tell everybody about is the San Francisco 49 ers team. Total over 29 and a half points. Combined with their money line, that is an even money proposition. Maybe a tiny bit of juice -106 -105 but that's my best bet right now as we sit here on Tuesday night.


KFC, where do you want Belichick to go?


Come here to LA. Come to the Chargers.




Just to see him in LA. I think he probably goes to Atlanta, though. What was that report today? Know he's not necessarily the favorite.


Saw that. Oh, yeah. I mean, I talked about that on my last pod. The front office doesn't want to hire him, but the owner does, which is. That's never a good way to start your relationship. Chargers will be good with no. You get a quarterback and literally no pressure because nobody cares here. So it's like, come on in. There's no history at all. Every home game is going to be the other team's fans. You'll love it. It'll be good. But he just wants to get the 25 wins. All right, house, good to see you. We can hear you on fairway. Rolling in the ringer, gambling show wise guys. Two more shows left on Fanduel tv. Koc, we can read it on the ringer and listen to you on the mismatch with does Verno still think the Grizzlies are making the playoffs or is he giving up?


Yeah, they're on a pace, Bill. They're on a pace.


Gigi Jackson's pulling him back. Can they get a ten seed?


He's out now at this point, of course.


Okay. He's delusional.


Not that delusional.


All right, fair. Good to see you guys. All right. My dad is here. He's visiting from Boston. He's been here the last couple of days. We watched the Celtics beat Houston and Dallas. We watched together. He has been going to celtic games for 51 years and has been to a bunch of the games this year. I have deliberately avoided talking to him about the team until the halfway point, which we are now at. The Celtics are favored to win the title and you have been at a lot of these games sitting close to the court. Should we be favored?


I don't think so.


Okay, let's go. Let's hear it.


I think that I'm still scared to death in Miami, even though the record is not as good. I think Milwaukee is going to be an extremely tough matchup and Philly scares me. But that's not the only reason. Again, like you said, I've been to almost all the games and I love the chemistry of the team. I love the camaraderie. I think the teammates genuinely like each other. But I have the same complaint that I've had for the past year, which is the coaching. When you have an easy matchup, everything goes well.


The 29 point win over Charlote.


Yeah, everything goes well. And I just have this continuing feeling that we're winning despite the coaching. Part of that comes against a really good team. In the last four or 5 minutes, it's like we'll watch three quarters of players cutting, getting easy baskets, going to the rim, not settling for the long three point shot or not settling for a contested shot. They move the ball. The ball is moving. Really well, we're not walking the ball up the court. Good pace.


Different people are involved. Different. Nobody is like getting stagnant.


Yeah. Eight, nine players involved, everybody moving around. I mean, you really see it. It's like a symphony. They're all moving around. Last four or 5 minutes of a tight game, it all stops. All of a sudden we go back to isolation basketball. The coaching staff doesn't stop it. They don't call a timeout and say, hey, guys, we got this lead because we moved around. We're cutting. There's no more cutting. Where's the cutting? And it's like the coaching staff lets them do whatever they want. And it's really puzzling as a fan.


Because, well, the Denver game on Friday is a good example because.


Perfect example.


KP was an awesome matchup in that game.


KP had 19 points in the first half. He was unstoppable. They had nobody to put on him. I know they moved people around. In the second half, he scored two points. We went into isolation basketball, jump shot after jump shot after jump shot and.


Not using, like, if they're putting Aaron Gordon on Tatum, it's going to be hard to score for Tatum. He can do it, but it's hard. And he's got to do his one on one stuff.


But he kept trying to score over Gordon.


And then Jalen gets his. But the matchup for that game for us was KP and Derek White together and. Exactly, they just went away from it. And my issue with them is when KP turns into Dallas Mavericks KP, when he's just kind of standing on the side as a catch and shoot shooter.


Well, he's staying on the side because suddenly we're not running plays, our players are going isolation and we're not cutting. And he's not a cutter, but they're not getting the ball to him in the middle. Slowing the ball down kills us.


Right. You could see it. The big picture is the last 5 minutes.


The big picture, the last 5 minutes.


You even see like, I think they have nine losses, ten losses, whatever it is. I think every one of them. But two was a blowout loss to Milwaukee and to Orlando right before the other think. I think there were eight where we were tied, or it was like within a point with 3 minutes left. And they've had trouble winning these close games. They won the one against Minnesota, but it's all the same stuff we hate. It's the stagnation that's the big picture. The small picture is just what you see at the end of the quarters.


Oh, end of the quarter.


How many times do we need to see it?


It's the same play. It's 22 seconds left. Tatum is dribling the ball up or somebody else dribbles the ball up slowly and then they set a screen for, you know, he's a great, great basketball player, but I don't want to see the fallaway three point shot over and over and over and over again.


Right. And he's terrific driving or the step back three? It's one of the step back three.


He's terrific driving to the basket. It's like the coaches never tell him, instead of taking that step back three, why don't you go to the basket? Maybe you'll get fouled.


Well, and plus, he put on weight this year. You can see, I've been saying this, you can see with how the defense reacts when he's posting up or when he's trying to get to the basket, the defense reacts. If it's just him dribling between his legs and he's going to launch a step back, they're kind of good with that. That's the best case scenario for the defense.


That's the shot they want him to take.


Yeah. Same thing for Jalen. It's like, oh, cool, Jalen might go one on one here.


Jalen's another good example. The first three quarters he does go to the.


This is, wouldn't you say this has been the best Jalen season? Other than some of the crunch time.


Stuff, I would say it's the best in a couple years.




He is going to the basket. He's not dribling off his leg quite as frequently.


There's not as much hero ball stuff as there's been the past. He's taken defensive assignments like he did with Luca.


There is some, though. It's almost humorous. You can watch the game closely, and if Jalen hasn't touched the ball in.


Three or four possessions going up, you.


Know it's going up, you know he's not going to pass it well.


So end of the games, which is going to be what kills this team at the end, and if they die, if they die at some point, this season will be because of the end of the game stuff. And you go through all the teams and all the best guys on every other team and us in a one point game last 4 minutes.




And I don't trust our guys the least, but it's close because Embiid we watched last night, I mean, he's got the full bag of scoring tricks at this point. Milwaukee has Giannis and Dame, which we'll see if Doc can unleash that a little bit.




Miami just has just some sort of gritty know how where just somebody always steps up for them and now matters.


Rosier is going to help them.


Yeah, hopefully he helps them as much as he helped us in game seven 2018. But then on the other side, OKC Shea Clippers, they have three guys they can go do. But really, it's Kawhi at the end. End of the game, Denver's got Jokic Jamuri, which is the most unstoppable play in the, you know, you watched a Denver celtic game and you went to it and Jamari were great. That's about as good as they're going to play. But in the last 5 minutes, I just don't feel confident that the Celtics are going to execute as well as Denver is.


Well. And there's a pattern because even the Denver game Friday night, we had the lead with about 4 minutes to go.




And that's been a pattern in some of the tough games we've lost.


Golden state, we had the lead, Indiana.


And what happens when we have the lead with 4 minutes to go? We slow it down. Yeah, the pace goes away, everybody stops cutting. People are in the corners, there's somebody dribling and a fall away shot is taken. And that's not what happens the first three quarters. The ball is moving.


This has been the 2020s. It's gotten a little better this year, but you can see it. I think there's a couple of things going on. One is that we're still not great at that mid range, 15 to 20 foot game. We don't have like the Derozan.


We're better, though. Tatum and we're better have been making that shot.


I'm talking end of the game.


Oh, end of the game.


End of the game. It just feels like threes and free throws becomes the strategy for the last 4 minutes where it's like, you know what's nice is KP and Derek White in a little high screen, and KP has a little foul line jumper that, by the way, it feels like he's like 70%, but when he's got a smaller guy on him from the foul line, it always goes in.


That's my complaint, though. That's coaching, right? I was watching the Denver game. I think we're going into the fourth quarter. I think we had four timeouts left and they were not strategically used in the fourth quarter. He doesn't use them necessarily to stop the other team when they're having a 20 point run.




And he also doesn't use them to tell the players, hey, we're not playing the way we were playing in the beginning of the game. We're not cutting, we're not moving to the basket. I know he loves the three point shot, the coach. And I know there's a couple of reporters that have gotten in trouble with the coach for bringing it up.


Yeah, he's, like, almost feuding with Gary Washburn at this point. The Globe reporter.


He has an anger about anybody criticizing his coaching style. The guy's only been there over a year, right?


And he's been handed the most talented team in the league.


And he was in the second row a year and a half ago.


That's why you call him second row Joe. I think he's been better this year. I think, Tatum, he's everything you'd want from a 26 year old. I don't even know if he's 26 yet.


He gives a shit.


He's durable. He accepts every challenge. He shows up night after night after night. If he doesn't play, I'm, like, worried, oh, there must be something wrong with him, right? He handles himself unbelievably well off the court. I think he's been an asset in every respect. But the one thing that's been missing is some coach to be like, yo, dude, here's the last hundred shots you took in the last 5 seconds of a quarter. You're nine for 100, and you're doing the same thing every time, and the other team knows what you're doing. Like, maybe we should mix this up. So to me, it's like watching somebody's kid kind of misbehaving, and the parents are just kind of over there at the open bar having drinks, and it's like your kid's jumping in a trampoline with a butcher's knife right now. It's so frustrating because I feel like he's really close now to being. He's probably the 6th or 7th best player in the league. But there's another level I feel like.


I think he simply needs to be reminded. It's 4 minutes to go. Go to the basket, right? And the other thing we've already talked about, porzingis, we've never had a player like that. I love his game. But you can't score 19 points in the first half because the team is doing a great job getting the ball to in the middle, and then they ignore you in the second half, right? He's still standing there. He's still playing.


Yeah. Because over the years with the Celtics, we'd have the games where in the first half they'd get parished, the ball. But you knew, like, all right, when it's not crunch time, it's going to be. And McHale. And they would get parished or get his shots. Porzingis thing is different. There's certain defenses that don't know how to react to him.


He has a much more rounded game, isn't he?


Much, much better than you ever imagined he was.


He's much better in a number of ways. I think he's unstoppable when he's near the basket.




But he has a great three point shot.


Yeah. So it's a little streaky, but it always looks good.


Yeah. He was very difficult for Denver to guard until we stopped getting them the ball.


Right. There's a couple things that have really jumped out just watching him day in, day out. That little foul line area is just almost unstoppable.


That's his area.


It's a little Dirk nowitzki esque. He's around the rim with his hands up, and then you kind of remember belatedly that he's seven foot three, so he gets a lot of kind of semi cheap stuff and lobster on the basket. And he's got, like, good footwork for a big guy. Like, he's not clumsy. Right. We've had big guys over the years. He's probably the most nimble of all of them. I think he's a pretty good passer. He seems like a fantastic teammate. Like, they all love him. He's got a great demeanor.


I think he's an underrated passer. Yeah.


And he's a good defensive player. And the question is health. They've been super careful with.




They don't want to play him in back to backs. They just want to get into April.


And I'm fine with how they play Horford one game for Zingus, the other game when they have a back to back.


So if that's Joe Manz, he gets credit for that because I think he's done the marathon, not a sprint approach, which I think has been smart. There's some Pritchard stuff that I think is coming to a head that they have to figure out because there's just games where he looks too small.


Well, it's interesting. I think he and Hauser have had pretty good years, except Denver exposed them. Watching that Denver game, Denver is so big. It's the biggest team I've seen come in. Yeah, big and athletic each position. And Howser got killed on the boards. Pritchett couldn't get his shot up. And if I have another criticism of the coaching, they kept them in much too long. They seem to have this philosophy. They want tabin to play 36, 37 minutes. Yeah, that's fine when you're playing Charlote, but you're playing Denver or Philly or Milwaukee. I want them out there 42 minutes.


Well, also, it was clearly Denver was locked in because Murray brought it. Murray was awesome.


Murray was terrific.


And Yokage was possessed. And they scored 69 combined. So at that point, this is now a litmus test for the finals.


Yeah, okay, they're locked in. Maybe the two of them. Maybe Murray had his best game of the season. We still lost by two points.


Yeah. I'm saying when they're locked in like that, this becomes like, hey, what's, yeah, this is the game to maybe make Tatum go 39 minutes.


This is the game. He has a substitution pattern that's pretty consistent. He'll take Tatum out with about 6 minutes to go in the first quarter. He'll bring him back in with 2 minutes to go in the first quarter. But it's the third quarter that kills me.


And the beginning of the fourth.


Yeah, he'll take him out with, I don't know, four or 5 minutes left in the third quarter. Bring in Hauser and Pritchard and other people, and we won't see Tatum again until we've lost the lead. And the other thing that kills me, Brissette is a good player.


Right. And he didn't play in Denver.


He didn't play in Denver.


It's the most inexplicable subplot of the year. Brissette, who has had some good moments, but just in general, he's active. He really tries, doesn't seem scared. And we kind of need somebody like him.


Yeah, he's active on the offensive. Yeah. He's a good defender. He's a good team passer. In terms of keeping the ball moving, to see him not play on Friday night against Denver, it was inexplicable.


I agree. I agree. What's been your drew holiday Scott and report you spent half the year with him now.


Yeah. He's a really smart ball player that other players love him. He's about a half step slower than I expected.


I think he's a little older. He's been in the league since like 2009.


I don't know whether it was just one of those games for Murray on Friday night, but holiday couldn't stay with him.


Yeah, I'm starting to wonder, can anyone stay with anyone? Maybe because the best two guards right now for staying with people are probably Chris Dunn, Jalen Suggs, and maybe Caruso and Holliday used to be on that level. I don't know if he's on that level against the smaller guys, but where his value comes is a lot like how they use smart. Where when he guarded Embiid, that was the most interesting game of the season.


Yeah, it was.


And the ability to throw him on these bigger dudes, they threw him on Anthony Davis, they threw him on LeBron.


They threw him on Gordon for a while in the Denver game.


I went to the game when they put him on LeBron, and I'm telling you, it messed LeBron up. He had a really weird game because he didn't want to put the ball on the floor against him.


Well, it's kind of know he seems to be playing really well against big guys.


Right. It's a little like smart. Smart was always better with the bigger.


Dudes, some of these really quick point guards. But again, it's hard to gage Friday. Murray could not miss when he needed to make a shot.


I think the one thing that was cool with holiday is just the combo with white is definitely a little one plus one equals three to watch. Yeah. The way that both of them can block shots and get steals and if you try to get them in a switch at the end of games, they're both able to do it. And he seems just beloved already by the team.


I feel that way.


So they had these two dudes, Porzingis and Holliday, who were like just awesome teammates. And the guys they left I think everybody liked, but it was know Grant needed to spread his wings. That hasn't worked out. Marcus, he goes to new team and they have the year from hell. Not his fault Robert Williams gets hurt right away. Brogdon's in exile in Portland.


All the moves have worked out and I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I just feel the coaching needs to come around if it can.


Yeah, well, it can't just be threes and free throws as the strategy. They have to figure know. This is like when I watch OKC or a couple of these other teams, sometimes it's nice to just get two points.




And Porzingis is Porzingis. And then the post ups with either Jalen or Tatum, the advanced stats for that per possession are really good, especially Tatum.


You've talked about it frequently with me. Tatum is so much bigger than he was two years ago. Yeah. I think he's almost unstoppable in the cylinder. Around the cylinder.


Yeah. Unless it's like a real big. If it's like bam, out of bio guarding, I'm sure he's going to have trouble.


I just wish you would go in there more and I know it's easier to be out taking a three point shot, less taxing on the body. I call it lazy basketball, but I'm sure coach Missoula doesn't.


Well, it's the stuff you do during the offseason. You work on stuff and then you try to do it during the games. Sometimes got to throw that out and just be like, the thing that this team needs to get better is, what's our matchup tonight? Like in that Denver game, Murray had fouls. It's like, where is he? Whoever he's guarding, let's go to that guy. Let's try to put Murray in picks, let's try to get him in switches, and sometimes they won't do it, but every team's going to have some matchup.




I even like when holiday, if it's somebody terrible on him, I even feel like he can get to the basket and do stuff.


I think he's.


He averaged 20 points a game last year.


He's terrific getting to the basket. Yeah. And he can score with both hands when he's in there.


I think there's a real fear around the league that the Celtics are going to. It's been 43, 42 games. Whatever it is that they're going to figure out what this is, it still feels like they don't totally know and they still have the best record.


We're talking. We should realize they have the best record in the league. We're talking about four or five or six games. They never should have lost.


Right. They literally could be like 37 and four. But I think the reason we're being hypercritical is just this team has really, since the mid 2010s, has been knocking at the door. 2020 really could have made the finals. 2018 came within an awesome LeBron game and everybody went cold. 2021. Yeah, 2021 is a throwaway. 2023. That's the Miami. You fall down three nothing. No excuse for that. And then 22 in the finals where we thought they were going to beat the warriors and they weren't even ready yet. So at some point they have to burst through the door is our point.


But this is what concerns me. We're halfway through the season. We have these games that make me cringe because they lost them playing the way they did two years ago.


Right. It's like they revert into bad habits.


And we know what happens in the know. Things tighten up.


Well, beating Dallas last night was a really good sign because that's it. Luca's given them trouble in the. Yeah, it felt like Luca was coming back. Last 5 minutes and it was like a seven point game. Luca, they go to commercial. Lucas flexing and we were saying like, oh, here we go again. And then all of a sudden the Celts pulled away.


Ironically, one of the first things I did when I looked at the box score, even though we watched the game, was to see how many minutes Tatum played. 40 minutes.


Oh, interesting. And he had one of his best games of the year.


If he had played 36, 37, maybe it's different. Yeah. And I know it's back to back, but he's 26 years old. He's not 32 years old.


Well, I guess the question is how important is this regular season? How important is the one seed and when do you feel like you can win the one seed and also not run these guys into the ground? Because with Porzingis, they've been really careful, but with the other guys, maybe a little less careful. Yeah, Tatum. So Tatum played 39 in that Denver game, just to be fair. So would you play them more than that? Portzingis played 36 in that game.


I would have played him 42 minutes.


So you're treating that like it's a finals game for you.


Well, we were up by eleven points. Yeah, they took him out when he came back in. We're down a point.




Denver had their run. Maybe if the other team was having a run with Tatum on the bench, maybe you change your philosophy, you put it back in.


So positives.


Yeah. Chemistry of the team.


Chemistry is great.


Is a great positive.


The two trades I think have been home runs. They basically turned four guys into poor Zingus and drew. And that's been unequivocal. Home run. Jalen getting the giant $304,000,000 contract, which, that first couple of weeks, it was.


Like, is this going to trying to earn it?


Yeah. Are we going in a hero ball now? Where is this going? And that feels like that's gone by the wayside. The Minnesota game was a really good sign for the future of the team. The way they all banded.


I think a positive. I think our bench has played pretty know, except for the Pritchard, you know, even Brissette, when he's in there has played well.


And it seems like the owners are going to spend whatever it takes because I think they see the urgency of this.


Don't you think we need one more player?


Yeah, we both think they need a bigger guard. Yeah, bigger guard. Want some insurance for holiday and white? The ability to go smaller with three people?


Because if one of them goes down and we're playing a team like Denver and Pritchard is our starting guard, we're in trouble, right?


Or even a team like know they'll just be hunting Pritchard that whole series and trying to get him in mismatches and stuff. But for the most part, it's as optimistic as I think we've been since nine in a Celtics team. The year KG got hurt after the title where we were like, my God, we're going to win back to back. And then he got.


Part of my optimism is the chemistry of the team and that the team members each like each other and like playing with each other.


Well, now give us what it's like to sit near the Celtics bench because last year you were horrified that smart was putting himself into games.


Now, that's a good question. It's much different watching the bench this year because Sam Casell and the other assistant coach, Charles Lee. Charles Lee have a big role in what's being talked about during those timeouts. I'm still not sure what Joe Missoula is doing. He's the orchestrator, except then he brings the team together and I guess he shares whatever the two assistant coaches came up with. It's the best I can discern when I'm watching.


So it seems less chaotic than last year.


Oh, yeah, less chaotic, more collaborative with the coaches. The players are not running the huddles. And that was what was happening last year, particularly with Marcus. It wasn't just Marcus, though. Grant Williams, one of the least talented players out there, running the huddle all the time.


Yeah. And being like the leader and the alpha dog.


So that's not happening.


Well, that's what we said over the summer. Part of the reason for those trades was to open up some leadership possibilities for Tatum and Brown. I think that's don't. And I was saying that people were. They thought it was like, oh, of course you're saying that because they traded him. It's like, no, this is a real issue. This team had a leadership vacuum that was coming from the wrong guys.


There's two other things. Horford's taken more of a leadership role. He's really looked up to by the other players. He's kind of like that quiet guy who doesn't talk much, but when he talks, everybody listens. And Porzingis has something to say. So it is a collaborative huddle once they get in the huddle.


So at least you see the upside in the ceiling, possibly here. I do. Okay.


I do. And we're not saying there's not an awful lot to fix. Fix the last 4 minutes of each game.


Right. So now the next 35 plus games of the year is about execution in the last 4 minutes.


Yes. And no.


Isolation and knowing what the matchup is. And it's like, you know what? Tonight's a derek white night. This is the matchup for us. Let's go there instead. No, it has to be Tatum. This is his team. That's what they have to snap out of.


They have to snap out of that, and they don't play that way for three and a half quarters. It's a collaborative team approach, but something happens in a close game against a good team with four to 5 minutes to go.


Any last thoughts on the Patriots season?


I look forward to drafting our quarterback of the future.


Have you been on the draft guides already? Yeah.


I really like the Daniels kid.


Oh, you already have a favorite. Interesting.


I like that he's a two dimensional quarterback in terms of passing and running.


So you don't want to just see our quarterbacks take a four step drop and then get sacked?


No. And it reminds me of years ago. I don't know how many years ago.




Six years ago. We went to the Masters and we were at the Masters in Augusta the weekend of the draft.


Oh, the Lamar Jackson draft.


And you and I were saying they have to take. Have to take. Of course. What does Belichick do? Probably traded down, picked somebody.


He did. He traded down. Yeah.


And we were furious. And hopefully they don't make the same mistake again because I think Daniels is a dual threat quarterback.


When did you stop rooting for them and start rooting for them to lose during the season? Because you never totally stopped rooting for them to win, even though it was the boost.


It was awfully hard to root for your team to lose. Yeah, I had a problem doing that.


Well, they go three and 14.


They lost without me rooting for them to lose.


Fortunately, we had the worst kicker of all time. He lost like four games then Mac was.


But it's a good thing we didn't spend a fourth round draft pick on that.


I know. Could have taken Puka Dekua.


He might have been a free agent later.


Mac, wherever that went to with Mack and Zappi, it's in the running for worst quarterbacks we've ever had. I really have to look at it. But there was that Mac Kavanaugh year was pretty rough.


The Mac thing.


The Scott Zolak year was rough because.


I was out here three years ago when the NFL draft was taking place, and we were so excited that Mac Jones fell to us at 15. Remember that?


And he just lost it. He lost his confidence as a rookie. He's pretty good.


Made the Pro bowl.


Well, he was an alternate.


Yeah, but, I mean, we thought you're only going to get better, right?


Yeah, no, he went backwards in a really crazy way.


Crazy way.


Yeah. So when you saw the stuff Seth Wickersham, he wrote that piece about Belichick and Kraft and how it went and went sideways. And one of the lead anecdotes was that when Brady won the Super Bowl, Kraft was pissed and was like, belichick told me he was all done and obviously not. He just won the fucking Super bowl. And that was certainly how we felt. It's a tough one. I'll never understand the last six years of Belichick is super confusing. Like the Jimmy Garoppolo that it really seems like he was ready to just replace Brady with Jimmy Garoppolo and then, no, no, this is stupid. I'm keeping Brady, made him trade him, then he just gives him away for a second round pick when we probably could have gotten a first. So there's that. Then there's the passing Lamar Jackson, then there's basically pushing Brady out the door when in that article and other people have said, just give him a two, three year deal, let him finish his career. And Belichick's like, no, there's no way I'm tying up our cap doing that. That guy's done. Brady goes to Tampa, does great, and he ends up spending that money on Nelson Aguilar.


And it's just, it's not going to change how I feel about the Belichick era ultimately. But, man, did it really end badly the last four years?


Yeah, very badly. His evaluation of talent the last four or five years was abysmal.


Abysmal, horrific.


And I don't get it. I mean, previous to that, he made some pretty good draft choices. When you talk about Seymour and Malloy.


Well, he had the big renaissance when he did Gonzalez, the Hernandez and Gronk draft, taking Jamie Collins and Chandler Jones. He had a nice little run. He also dipped in the five to eight range, where that was when we first struggled with the draft and then it dipped again in 2017 range.


It's hard, though, when you're at the top of the league or winning Super Bowls. You're getting a very low. You're getting the 32nd draft pick.


Well, the stunning thing to me, there was an article Mike Reese wrote about money spent the last ten years by.


Teams that was shocking.


And the Patriots were 32nd out of 32 teams for the amount of money they spent the last ten years. And it's like, man, six of those years we had one of the best teams and we had the best quarterback of all time and the best coach. Why were we so frugal?




I didn't understand that. But that's been the rap with the crafts, is like they wanted everything. They want the perception that they're doing everything possible, but then the numbers aren't packing up, which is basically what's happening with the Red Sox now.


Well, it came back to bite the crafts the last four years now that the data is out there and how poorly we have spent on the team.


Right. And I do think that's one of the reasons they were delighted to get rid of Belichick, because so now they bring in Mayo. He's going to be doing way more interviews. He's going to be a bigger part of the whole day to day, super friendly. There's going to be all these articles about, oh, the atmosphere is totally different. Oh, my God, it's night and day here.


It's kind of funny, the irony of this week, Mayo was talking about how the crafts have said, we're going to spend a lot of money. We need to spend a lot of money.


Haven't seen in ten years.


And I'm thinking to Breslow's press conference when he was named, oh, the Red Sox GM. Yeah. And he said the same thing. And we've spent nickels and dimes on shitty players.


Well, they're outright lying to people. They're saying, oh, we were in on Yamamoto. They were never in on Yamamoto, ever. It wasn't ever a thing. But they're know, it's honestly like they seem like the fans are stupid or something. I don't really understand how they're treating the fan base.


The fan base. And we have the highest tickets in the major League Baseball.


Highest tickets in the major leagues. And they've made more money off that team, I think, than probably anyone in any major sport. They bought the team for 300. Now it's probably worth five, 6 billion. Maybe only the warriors, but the warriors actually spend money.


And the only one who goes after them really is Shaughnessy and the Globe.


I try to do it sometimes. I guess I'm not a local person.


But I meant local.


Yeah, Shaughnessy will do it even though the globe is owned by the Red Sox owner. But I'll never understand it because they had the four World Series. I think they were basically, whatever happened after that, it was really hard to fuck up unless they did what they did, which was get rid of mookie Betts, stop spending money, start openly lying to the fans about what their intentions were and then simultaneously cut back on money, but then also spend money. But the fans like the Trevor story. Free agent contract. Like, what was that?


The fans aren't stupid. Meanwhile the fans are watching the Fenway group by the Pittsburgh Penguins, by the european soccer team, probably end up with.


The Vegas NBA team by a race.


Car affiliate and probably end up with the football team. They're spreading their money. In the beginning, their only entity to spend money on was the Boston Red Sox. And that's different now.


Well, do you think, anecdotally, are they not the number four team right now in Boston, like locally?


I think in terms of popularity, yes.


That's what I mean, yeah.


I mean, look at all the empty seats. The last 20 games of the home season.


It's only going to get worse. Yeah.


And if people were there, they had on the uniform or paraphernalia of the visiting team.


Celtics are easily won right now.


Easily one.


Bruins too.


Yes, Bruins too.


And you're the only person I know who watches regular season hockey regularly, my friend Lewis Kay.


I love regular season hockey. With the Bruins. I think the Patriots could easily become number two.


I mean if they take Jaden Daniels and he's. Yeah, and the moment there's the first mini camp and there's two highlights from him, he'll immediately become the second most popular guy in Boston.


Right. My fear is Washington will take him. It's possible.


All my NFL people are telling me he's going to go to the combine and run a four three and then maybe Drake may falls to. I mean, at this point in my life, and especially because we won six Super Bowls and we've know different types of quarterback we've never had the super exciting, athletic. He feels perfect.


He does.


Belichick would have traded down and we would have been for like two months.


Belichick never would have picked Daniel. No.


He would have moved back to like eight swap picks with Atlanta and got a first and 2 seconds and I.


Don'T know enough about Drake. May I know, he's a six foot four pocket passer who has some speed differently than Mac Jones.


Right. You at least need to be able to move around as much as Jordan Love.




You don't need to be like Lamar Josh Allen scrambling around, but you need to be able to buy time. And that was what Mack and Zappi, you could feel that those guys could buy 0 minute.


It didn't help either one of them that our offensive line was so, but.


Other quarterbacks have had like mediocre, bad offensive lines, but they can move and save plays. Our guys couldn't save anything.


We could not extend plays.


Yeah, Daniels would be. There's, I have people in my life who are like, Marvin Harrison's going to be the, Marvin Harrison is going to be one of the three best receivers of all time. If you got him at number three, that'd be amazing. Just find a quarterback later. But it feels like we have to get one of these quarterbacks.


I don't agree with that. We're never going to hopefully have one of the top three picks again.


Does it worry you that the crafts basically seem like they're running this whole thing? We don't have a GM.


Oh, yeah. It worries me that we do have a pseudo GM. His name is Jonathan Kraft, who didn't.


Go to the press conference for some reason to announce Mayo, which I thought was also really weird. There was some succession vibes.


I love that you have identified. There was succession vibes there.


How is he not at the press conference? It's like, dad, I thought I was taking over the team. It was a little Kendall royish.


That's why it was so much fun to read the Globe that next day and have Ben Vollen's column and Sharnessy's column both saying, where was Jonathan? Where was Jonathan?


He was saying, Bob Kraft said he had other stuff. He had other businesses. He had emergencies with our other businesses. What's a bigger emergency than the coach press conference for your new coach after you got rid of the greatest coach of all time and pushed him out?


I think one of the presses broken their paper mill and he had to take care of it.


Oh, that was it.


No, I don't know what it was.


Dad, I want to go to the press conference. You're not coming. This is my show. I thought that was a bad sign. I thought it was a bad sign that they said they weren't hiring a GM. No, we're going to do this internally. We have a very good organization and a system which is really scary. Everyone else has a GM. I like that plan.


Well, it's really scary because the internal organization is the group that has had such terrible picks for the past five years in the draft.




That doesn't give me any confidence.


They've learned from Bill Belichick, who's a D minus, which means we may still trade down. I'm going to miss Belichick, though.


I'm going to miss him. I kind of, in retrospect, wish that he had retired after the 18th Super bowl.


He's never doing. He's here till he breaks the record.




I mean, the move really should have been after the second max season where he probably knew the team wasn't going to be that good this season. Maybe that was when he should have been bounced or left or grabbed another job, but I don't know. We'll see. I would have loved to have seen him go to Dallas. I thought that would have been really fun.


I thought that would have been Buffalo.


Still in play maybe.


But the Atlanta job, I know he's interviewed that twice, but now they're interviewing more people.


Where do you stand on the Bruins?


I think they're a fun team to watch. I don't think they're going to able to make some of the moves they made at the trade deadline last year.


Yeah, they don't have the same assets.


And they're writing their two goalies and they have two great goalies. I think they have a shot like everybody else, but they're certainly not the favorites.


Okay. All right, dad, thanks for the Boston sports report. Good to see you.


Good to see you.


All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Kevin O'Connor and Joe House. Thanks to my dad. Thanks to Steve Saruti and Kyle Creighton as well. Don't forget to check out slash Bill Simmons if you want to see clips and videos from this podcast and some of the rewatchables. And I will see you on Thursday with the red hot million dollar pits I don't have with him on the wayside. On the first.


I don't have must.


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