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Coming up on the Bill Simmons podcast, very famous quarterback named Russell Wilson and a director who might be famous some day, Cooper Raef, plus our picks. What? Here we go. We're also brought to you by the Ring or Dotcom and the Ringer podcast network, which is humming right now with all kinds of awesome podcasts. We've still got the NFL going. Still got a little baseball going. We still got a little Dave Changa and Bakari Sellers. Check him out.


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I will get to the rest of us maybe in one second. It's really you enjoy it. I want to talk quickly about Darrell Murray, who stepped down as the Rockets general manager. He had been there since 2006, was running the team since 2007, and presided over some really good racket's teams, a team that, you know, he inherited, Yao Ming and Tracy McGrady.


And they got to pretty deep in 2009, second round loss to the Lakers in seven. And then Yao fell apart. They had to rebuild that and he was able to rebuild on the fire he made. The famous Harden trade somehow landed Dwight Howard summer of 2013, when it seemed improbable that a team like Houston would end up with a free agent superstar, which Dwight was at the time. They came pretty close in 2015. I don't think they were going to beat the Warriors, but they got to the Western Finals and then an 18 and 19 went toe to toe with those great warriors teams in twenty eighteen.


You know, this is the kind of league it is. You need some luck.


Chris Paul broke down game game five after they I think went up three to.


Yeah. And he got hurt at the end of the game. And it's a great what if Daryl came on the book, a basketball podcast we talked about that Rockets team and and that would f of you know, what happens if Chris Bosh doesn't get hurt? You could make the counterargument while they were playing too many minutes because they were pretty thin at that point and he just couldn't make it at the level that they were playing at his advanced age, all that stuff.


But he came really close. I think the coolest thing about the rockets rain for me is somebody who's known him for a long time, even before he got to the rockets, was, you know, he's at the forefront of pushing the league into a different direction.


And it wasn't just about shoot more threes and the harden trade and how they used Harden and the spacing, the small ball, a lot of the things I don't want to say he pioneered but really took advantage of. But you go back to the long conference which started at MIT and a bunch of classrooms I'm talking about there, like he's dead, he's not dead. He's going to do some great stuff, as we're about to talk about. But I called the Dorotka palooza.


I loved it.


There are all these different classrooms and talking about advanced metrics of basketball, which I really wasn't a believer in those first few years.


I wrote a piece about it in ESPN Magazine in 2009. I called the Durka palooza. I nicknamed Darrell Dracoulis Elvis, which he did not appreciate that much. I think he eventually grew to like it, but I was very skeptical. If you go back and you read some of the stuff I wrote in 08, 09, 2010, 2011 about I just didn't feel like basketball could work like baseball did with the advanced numbers. But I was allowing the possibility like, hey, if we can figure out the lineup piece of this and, you know, combinations that would be cool if we could isolate what is this guy shoot from here?


What is this guy shoot from there. If you go back and you read something that you would.


But if you go back and read some of the stuff I wrote, there was a curiosity to the numbers and stuff that was really neat. You know, I was like, wow, what if we could figure out this?


What if we could figure out that? What if we could figure out who the best low post defender was? And it seemed like there's great unknown. And the reality was there are smarter teams like Houston and some other ones were collecting all the data constantly. And I think when Michael Lewis wrote that piece about Darrell and Shane Battier, basically that Shane Battier trade, which on paper didn't make sense to a lot of people, why would you trade Rudy Gay?


The seventh pick in the draft would all star talent potentially for a role player glue guy who does that? But that trade was really smart and it helped them build this really, really good late 20s rockets team around T-Mac and some other stuff. But, you know, at the time, it seemed crazy that you would think about basketball that way. Well, how would you value glue guy more than a potential All-Star?


And that's as the numbers changed over the next, I would say, from two thousand nine to 12, 13, 14 range. And I remember when I was still writing for Granlund at the time, really starting to take advantage of them and really opening my mind up for a while. There's this whole other world happening here. And then as basketball started to change with, you know, the 12, 13 Heat team, the all the small ball they played, how the rockets built around Harden, that crazy Atlanta, Indiana series in 12, 14, Wimpier and Teach was twenty five feet from the basket, pulling Hibbert out.


And then all the great stuff Warriors and Klay Thompson, all those people did to to just push the sport into a different direction.


And now we're here. And I think Daryl has to be mentioned in the first paragraph of that. Again, he's not dead, but that Rockets team didn't win a title. But I think for this decade, the 2010s, I think they became the critically acclaimed team. I remember I wrote this column about the Nash, the Suns and the Twins about never won a title, but critically acclaimed like We'll Remember Them, you'll remember those rockets teams to you.


You might not have liked watching that much. I know I did.


And I certainly battled a lot with the style and the spacing and just watching Harden feeling and dallying from a million feet from the basket, the free throws and threes thing, all that stuff. But it was successful and, you know, I look at what Daryl did the last 10 years and to to build that Rockets team without ever having a top ten pick is unusual, you know, and he was just basically doing the Danny Ainge strategy of just accumulating assets, hoping it would be enough to grab a superstar potentially out of nowhere at the right time.


And so what happened? Hard and and, you know, then it led to them contending. And, you know, he said in his press conference, they ran into some really good warriors teams. It's true. They did. They ran into especially 2017 and then 2008. Not as good as the 2017 team just because I don't think the chemistry was the same. But that team had a deep reservoir of talent and know how all that stuff and it was just a really hard team to beat.


So, you know, I think we judge people by titles like I have written about this a lot over the years. Like I my opinion of Charles Barkley certainly doesn't change because he came within an inch of beating Jordan. Ninety 93. But he didn't. I sort of like that guy was one of the great players I've ever seen. And with Darrell, certainly one of the best front office executives of the last 20 years, hands down, really respected.


I think, you know, I think there are people out there that probably thought he was a little arrogant, that he was probably not shy about grabbing press for himself and and things like that. But I think when you're successful thinking outside the box like that, nobody's ever going to be rooting for you, the people you're you're competing.


And so, you know, people are asking me today, what do you think he's going to do? Why do you think he left? I have not talked to him yet to be to be clear, I'm sure I will at some point, but I've not talked to him. But, you know, as soon as the team changed hands. It reminded me a little bit, I remember when when John Skipper took charge of ESPN in 2012 when George Bernheimer stepped down and head in 2013, and I was in a great situation there and, you know, the best situation I've had in my career.


And now Bodenheimer stepped down and Skipper's moving up and everyone's telling me this is going to be great for you. He loves you. And I'm thinking, you know, it was great the other way.


I didn't really want to change. I don't know what I'm walking into and what you're walking into when things change. Guess what? Things are different and all the things that you thought you knew. Now you don't know as much. And now there's new people in your life. And now the person that you were counting on maybe isn't there as much.


And you just there's all these variables you can't control, I think, with. He was in an awesome situation with the old owner. The new owner came in and as we've seen a million zillion times, the new owner, you know, they're going to have their own ideas of what to do. They're going to bring things to the table and they own the team. And Darro is in such a powerful position, they're. Rosillo has convinced me of this over the past year, that the Westbrooke trade was not totally Darrell's idea.


I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. It was certainly the most atypical trade he made over the last 13 years. But my feeling all along was that at some point. For was going to want his own guy, because that's how it goes, just study the NBA study every time a new owner has come in, they always want to bring in their own people at some point.


So, you know, Ballmer just did it with Doc. It took six years, but he's going to finally have his own group of people. So I didn't think that was great for for. For today has. You know, just honestly, not great, but I would say he was Robert Sarver 2.0, but I actually think that's insulting to because Sarva was so cheap that he literally cost Steve Nash a title. You know, when you look back and you think all the pics that they sold or traded down on, all the ways they cut costs, he's not at that point.


But, you know, it's no secret that he's struggling financially and and God only knows what's going to happen over the next year with that team and cost cutting, things like that. The surprising thing just you know, a year ago, Daryl signed up. More than a year ago, Daryl signed a pretty, pretty massive iron clad deal that seemed like he was going to keep his there a while. And he's been honest about it. Like he almost went to Philly and Fertitta talked him back into staying the China Hong Kong thing happen, which unfortunately, I think is going to hang on there a little bit that moment.


Pretty unfairly, in my opinion. But. After that, you know, if you give me an over under of two years, I probably would have gone under. I don't think there is going to.


Necessarily jump to another job, he's always been somebody that has been interested by the outside world, he's got a lot of weird people in his life lot a lot of rich people, a lot of hedge fund people. He's somebody that would go to different conferences from time to time, things like that. And I think he's really respected in Silicon Valley circles just because of the way he thinks outside the box, which is how a lot of those guys think so.


I remember last week there was an article, these new specs that people are forming, which I, I got to be honest, I barely understand. But there is a big thing about Billy Beane getting involved with this back with with John Henry and the Fenway Fenway Group. And it just seems like this is a pretty accessible way if you're somebody like Billy Beane or Darrow or whatever to to dive into the financial world.


Being a part of a bigger group, you can invest in things you're not putting up all the money, but they're relying on you for your expertise and wisdom. When I saw the Billy Beane thing. The logical next guy to be potentially involved with that was Darah, so I always thought if he left the rackets, it would be for something in the financial world, at least for a little bit. So that would be my prediction. And again, I have not talked to him, but I just think he's I think he could do more than basketball, you know, and it wouldn't be surprised if he went into baseball.


I wouldn't be surprised if he became part of an ownership group of rebels team. I don't know. I don't know what he's going to do. But, you know, there's a chance we might not have him back in the NBA as a GM. I think it's in play. The smart move for him is to is to wait a year. And, you know, as we saw this year, there's these big jobs come up. Your marketability only goes up, your leverage only goes up.


And he's better off if he wants to get back in the NBA. Wait a year. Have refuel, spend time with your family, which is he's a huge family guy and and do things that way, we'll say we'll see how it goes. I do not expect him to be back with the NBA this year. And, you know, I got to be honest, I know the NBA might be OK with that, too. I think we'll probably at some point learn more about that story.


We certainly don't have all the information, but the hullabaloo that came out of his tweet definitely crossed the NBA money. There's no question. So we'll see. We'll see how that plays out and whether there is residual resentment, whether another owner slash franchise would would want to bring him in and give him the kind of authority he's used to and things like that. But it was a great run.


I was not surprised to hear that is today. I will say that and I'm really interested to see what he does next. There's just not a lot of really special, smart people you meet in your life, you know, and I really think he is such a smart dude and one of the most interesting people I've talked to. And I just love people that think outside the box like he did. And, you know, it didn't work with the title.


But you got to respect the the the the success that he had and the way the league advanced that he was a small part of it. And you're going to think about that, Aaron. You're he's going to be one of the first 12 to 13 people that will pop up after you go through all the relevant players and Adam Silver and a couple others. And then you start thinking about what Darrell did, even the process as as much of a failure as it was in a lot of ways.


But just that was another thing. Thinking outside the box, the 2014 Spurs. There were certain things that move basketball, for better or worse, to where we are now in the way it's played, the way people value certain players, and and he was at the forefront of it. So anyway, I was sad, read the articles today, but I'm so happy for him because I'm sure he's got something good going on, so. All right.


We'll take a quick break and then we're going to get to Russell Wilson.


All right, everybody likes this guy right now, Russell Wilson, get a lot of MVP buzz, he's hurt my feelings a couple of times when he's a rival podcast or now. And two, he beat my favorite team, the Patriots, couple weeks ago. So I'm not I'm not going to kiss your ass like everybody else is. I'm kind of mad at you, but it's nice to have you on anyway.


Well, Bill, I'm pissed that you still you still took a Super Bowl ring for me to Tom Brady and Butler. But, you know, the reality is, is that, you know, we've we've edged we've edged you here the past couple of times. You've played the Patriots. I know you're big Patriots fans out here.


So why are these Seahawks Patriots games always like classes? I don't know what it is about the matchup.


It's all it's always it always goes down to the wire. I remember I remember my rookie year actually was one of my biggest, most clutch moments because I think it really woke people up to this guy could possibly play for us now and do some things special in this league. And and it was probably I don't know what game was of the year, but this by the sixth or seventh, eighth game of the year. And we were actually down by quite a bit.


We came back and won the game with like one minute to go in Seattle, which is epic against Tom and great match up. And then now obviously put you guys in the Super Bowl. That was a crazy game down the wire. Unfortunately, didn't win that one. And then we then we then we went to Foxborough and played you guys, I think a year or two later. And that one came down and it was back and forth, back and forth.


Tom and I balanced back and forth, back and forth. And then we we had actually stopped you guys on fourth and one on the one yard line in Foxborough. And then this past time we played you guys with Cam Newton now, which is a different change and amazing game. And, you know, going up against your defense had so much, you know, special players. And and we were able to, you know, one up you there, but barely.


But they've always been a great games. I think Coach Belichick, just such amazing coach, you know, and he he understands the game so well and he has his players, you know, prepared, I think, Coach Carroll, same way, you know, he has this prepared. And it's pretty fascinating one. Carroll has the little you know, he was on the Patriots got fired after three years. So I think he always has a little extra for us, too.


Yeah. I think he's still probably pissed about.


Oh, no, I remember that first Seahawks game. You know, going back to your rookie season, I felt like that game put you on the map because that was also not just because you did well, but that was afterwards. When when in Sherman, when that Brady a little bit the post game, there was like a real swagger with the team. And I remember being really conflicted because I picked you guys to win the to make the Super Bowl that year.


I liked all the stuff I was reading about you in the training camp. And sometimes you can I would like to look at this stuff when the coaches and the teammates are talking about new guys, there's like this different level when somebody is obviously resonating in a real way. And you can kind of pick it up from the quotes. All the stuff about you guys, about you back then was like, hey, this is different. This is something special about this guy.


And I was trying to come out. So I picked you and then you came in new. I'm going to beat us and had this swagger. And I was like, oh, this is really happening, this team. And then you guys were in the mix basically from from that era. Were you surprised that it happened that fast because you read out of college? Yeah.


You know, I think for me, I was I surprised. No one, I think was was the world surprise. Yes. I think you know me, to be honest, with your five eleven, you know, black quarterback out of Richmond, Virginia. You know, I went to NC State, went to Wisconsin, and I was going against the odds a little bit. And I'm barely reaching five eleven. But, you know, and I think that I got the opportunity, you know, I came in to the league third, third round pick, seventy fifth pick overall.


And I think I had all the attributes besides the high, you know, and everything else. And so fortunately for me, I was able to play around a great group of guys that were teammates that that were just great players that could guys could make some plays on defense and offense and be in the backfield, me and Marshawn, you know, and. Yeah, and just making plays and then and then also, you know, all the players that we had, you know, obviously on on defense too as well.


We had some Hall of Fame type players on defense, you know, and that was a we had so much attitude, we had so much swagger. We stepped in, you know, with so much energy, every practice. And that really prepared me as a rookie, you know? You know. Yeah. It really helped me prepare as a rookie. I think that really helped set the tone, because if I was going to fight, if I was going to be great, I wanted to be where I am today.


You know, you have to be mentally tough, you know, every day at practice and, you know, you playing one of the best defenses of all time, every day. So you get prepared fast. And how much were they talking to you back then?


Oh, you're doing your defense in the scrimmages and stuff, and you're the new guy trying to prove yourself.


It was all done not just to me, but to everybody. I mean, it was it was I mean, guys, you know, guys talking so much stuff, borderline, you know, fighting. And if not, we had I feel like we had a fight every day if we didn't have a fight or something was wrong.


Right. But. Yeah, you know, I think that that was a good way to set the tone, because I think we're all underdogs and all guys who were late round picks or whatever it may be, you know, and I think that was the thing that helped set the tone for us.


Yeah, that was a good chip on the shoulder team, even to the coach, you know, because he's he comes back to the NFL after being at USC. And it's still like I really rarely saw this guy as an NFL coach twice. And everybody on that team had something to prove. There's so many strong personalities that, you know, you have a football locker room and you have like 10 alpha dogs in there. Like in retrospect, that's a little unusual, right?


Because you feel that at the time, especially, you're supposed to be the alpha dog. You're the quarterback. Well, I think that we definitely had, you know, alpha dogs in every position, the thing that made that team so great, though, Bill, was really the fact that we had so many great backups. I mean, our our our second string of defensive line are our second and third and fourth quarter nickels and guys who, you know, we could all play, you know, and I think, you know, as a rookie class coming in that year, me and Bobby Wagner and Bruce Irvin and guys like that, we came in, they gave us an F grade, first of all.


And so we were pissed off. We were ready to roll and we wanted to set the tone. We wanted to change, change the circumstances. And I remember my my teammate, my roommate, you know, Robert Turbin was one of my best friends in the world. You know, he was a he was the backup running back. You know, it was it's one of those things that, you know, we always talked about, you know, where we're going and the work ethic that we and so we Bobby and I still to this day, still to this day, we say don't get more consistency, don't get more consistency.


And so I think that's been a big central part of I think, you know, our success, especially with Bobby and I, it's just the work ethic, the consistency of it all.


And nothing's changed when you had a huge advantage that I don't think people fully realized what an advantage it was until you were succeeding. And the Seahawks, you're on this rookie contract. You're pretty cheap, right, you're this cheap asset, but you're one of the best quarterbacks in the league, everything comes together for them because now instead of spending a huge amount of money at the quarterback position, they can put that in other places. And you had this four year window of like, holy shit, this is this is an aberration.


Like, you know, it's a little like when Durant went to the Warriors that one year the cap spiked in the NBA and it was like, oh, my God. Like, this is really unusual. You guys said that to you, that four years there, I would say the overunder for Super Bowls you should have won was probably one and a half and it ended up going to one. But you think like the Patriots came down to one play, but that that team was really realistically could have competed every year in a Super Bowl and maybe even won three, right?


Yeah, I think we could have won three. I think the second one, obviously, we were actually winning, you know, with seven minutes to go, six minutes to go by now, 10 or 12.


I don't go back and watch the game too much right now, but we are winning, you know, by two scores. I know that. And, you know, they came back and won the game. And but I think, you know, your rookie year to that was another one that you guys used.


Yeah. We actually we actually had a great game against the Atlanta Falcons, actually, and came back. We were down 20, came back in the fourth quarter. I think we were down twenty with twelve minutes ago.


And you went ahead. Didn't they like the last minute field goal. Right. Yeah, I think we went ahead with thirty one seconds to go and they got the last second so-called no time on the clock and we felt like we could have won the Super Bowl that year and then. Yeah. You know, you know. So my third year, that's the year we lost my second year, we lost my third year and then the fourth year we had a really good team there.


But I think what really happened is we got we got a lot of, you know, some significant injuries and, you know, that year and unfortunately and things kind of change there. But, you know, now where we are now with the team that we have, I think that everybody's so clicked in, locked in, zoned into what we're doing and how we're doing it. And guys like Jamal Adams, you know, special player guys, you know, like DK Metcalf and Tyler Lockett and obviously Bobby and K.J. Wright's playing great football.


So I think we got a chance this year. We just got to stay the course. You know, this whole covid thing, you know, changes a lot of things in terms. Yeah. You know, your worries and you have to really take care of yourself. You know, it's by week right now. And, you know, for me, you know, we can't really go anywhere, can't do anything. And so we're just, you know, you never know when things are going to change.


You don't know if they're going to shorten the season. You don't know. You know. So every game is a championship moment. And we've always said that it really is this year. Yeah, we were doing a podcast with Pete and Steve Kerr, which we did like 10 episodes during the first few months of the pandemic, and it was interesting talking to him. Like when we're wrapping up, probably like the last two was like, hey, what's going on?


When do you guys go back? And he's like, you know, we're having these giant zoo meetings where we don't know or we start practicing their claim. The season is going to start on time. And it really did seem like it was happening by the seat of everybody's pants just this season, which I imagine like for football is probably the worst possible sport to do that, right? Yeah. If you let it catch you by surprise, you know, for me, I just kept saying I have a whole performance team and, you know, like, you know, I got a whole group.


I got a I got a full time train that travels with me everywhere. I worked with Sierrita named Decker Davis. I have a full time peaty I mean, I have a full time, you know, mobile person. And it's working on me just making sure that I'm moving the right way and everything else. I have a I have a full time Sojo person. You know, we have two chefs, so we have a whole performance team.


And the reality sounds like LeBron, you have full right on us.


Yeah, I've been doing it for five years or so, six years now.


Give the hyperbaric chamber. I got the hype. I got everything I got. We got all the toys I got. I got the hyperbaric I got two hyperbaric chamber. Yeah. Two upper chambers. I got I got a little bit of everything. But I think the thing is and I get I get an IV bag for example, I don't know, four times a week, three times a week.


I get treatment every day. Around the time somebody asked me this, my you asked me the day. Ossie Davis is great. He goes, you know, he played the NFL and, you know, and all that. And now he's my quarterback coach. But he said, how many days do you think him and Greg Olsen, how many days do you think you do, you know, body work? How many days or so? How many days?


I don't I said I do. Three sixty five. Yeah, three sixty five. Only time I don't. I probably do. I probably do. Three sixty three. You know, really, really. The reality is Christmas depending on, depending on the circumstances and usually I do because we usually have a game around then and Thanksgiving. So it depends as I'm in between three sixty three and three sixty five amount of work that we do every day, something around the body working.


And because I'm trying to play till I'm forty five at least you know. Yeah. For me my mentality is, is that I'm going to leave it all in the field and do everything I can to take care of myself. And, and that's such a critical thing because if I feel good, I'm going to play good. And I think, you know, and that's that's why I've been up on the field every time.


Well, your generation is learning from the generation ahead of you, right? So you got the LeBron Brady guys who are the first guys that have just basically demolished what our perception was if somebody is prime. Right. LeBron has been in his prime. He won MVP in 09 and 2010. And he's still in his prime now, it's a 12 year prime, Brady was, you know, he's he's probably past his prime now because he's forty three, but his prime extended all the way through the second round of Super Bowls.


And it's all the same lessons, right? It's take care of your body to a level that nobody thought was even conceivable. Dieting, sleep, hyperbaric chamber. And you and you have to commit to it every day. Right? It's you take July off. It's it nice every single day thing. And I think that's what people mess with, like the stuff that LeBron is doing. Like, I remember somebody told me he probably spends like two million a year in his body, something like that, just to be able to recover because the recovery is the biggest thing.


Right for you is same thing, right. That Monday you have to recover.


Yeah. I mean, I probably spend millions, if not more a year just on recovery, you know, because but it's not just the recovery part of it. That's huge. Right. And it's getting that. But, you know, for me, the biggest thing, you know, you mentioned the body, the you know, all that stuff. And the biggest thing for me is the mental game in the mental game is so important. You know, I actually even created a business called Limitless Minds around it.


But Trevor, Mowad, Trevor, Mowad and I, he's he's number one, you know, mental, you know, coach, sports, mental coach in the game. He's worked with Alabama, Florida State. You work with Nick Saban for years. He works at Georgia. He works with OKC Thunder, the Clippers, some of the best teams, Michael Johnson. So I've known him for ten, eleven years. He was the director of performance at IMG for a long time.


And and we talk about this idea about, you know, listen, I'm a positive person by nature. Well, yeah, I believe in positivity. I believe in that, you know, a lot of stuff. And I'm definitely that by nature. But the reality is that when you're down by a bunch, we're down by 16 or whatever it may be, and it may be the NFC championship game, you know, and you're down to the Packers.


And the reality is, is that there's only two minutes and 50 seconds to go. It's really hard to be positive to guys. I mean, you know, and being super upbeat. But the reality is, you know, being negative is never going to get you anywhere 100 percent of the time. Negative is always going to work. So for me, I always think about this idea of, you know, being neutral. You know, you think about your car when, you know, you downshift to neutral.


Well, for me, I always think about, you know, shifting to neutral because, you know, in the midst of everything, I want to have a neutral mindset. You know, I think the greatest one of the things that Trevor and I and my brother Harry and Jeff studied with those minds and work on some of the best companies in the world is that the reality is, is that, you know, the best players, the best the best companies, the best CEOs, the reality is and they may not even know it sometimes, but it's being neutral in the midst of chaos.


And so when we're playing, you know, on Sunday night against the Vikings and things aren't going great and they just made an interception, unfortunately. And now our defense gets a huge stop on fourth one, I go straight to neutral. I've been neutral all day. And so I'm on letting the guys know this is what we're going to do. This is how it's going to get done. This is how we're going to win the game. And it gives guys vision.


It gives guys vision. I think the same thing in life, you know, and you get cancer. Somebody gets cancer. Right. The reality is, is that and I've I've seen this thousand times over again because I see her and I go to sell Children's Hospital every Tuesday. And one of the things is that all the rooms when when the rooms are super negative or, you know, just overly positive or like, oh, we're going to be OK, you know, and it's it's very hard for that young child to overcome it.


But when the kids like, you know, I have cancer, but we're going to get through this and how I'm going to get through it is point one, point two, point three, boom. And it's amazing, amazing just seeing how, you know, the families come together and just they keep their faith and keep just keep believing because of that. And I think the same thing when, you know, covid happens and everything else is going on in the world.


Well, it's not just happening to you. It's happened to everyone. Now, your circumstances may be worse than the next person to your left and your right. Somebody always has it worse. So how are you going to respond? How are we going to respond? How are we going to overcome this situation? Relationships, everything. All that right is, is, is, is how do you find the best version of you? And I think that's something that I've really, really invested in and spent a lot of time on and just really believe that not just my body physically being great, but also my mind being at the highest level that I can possibly be at in the midst of chaos.


Do you think slow down for you in big moments where they take example, Monday, Sunday night? Minnesota. Fourth and one that could kick the field goal, go up eight. What do you, by the way, tangent, what are you rooting for them to do in that situation? Because this is a big nerd argument in football about whether they should have gone far to kick the field goal. I bet on Minnesota, which was my mistake, but it gets you.


But I think you're better than that. Now, they cover the. But my thought was like, just kick the field goal. They still have to score a touchdown and a two point if you don't get the fourth one out, Wilson's definitely beating you. If he's down five, he's going down and scoring. What do you want them to do as you're watching from the sidelines? Well, two things, one, if they go for the Philco, I want to I want them to miss a lot of times I missed it and we actually have extra training, too.


Yeah, it's raining here now. So if they miss it, they're they're in trouble, too. But also if they get it there, they obviously get the first. I think the move by the coaches is honestly a sign of respect. And just saying, hey, listen, we got in this game because. Right. They why are you on the field? Yeah, but I think that. You know, I have great confidence in our defense making a play to go going fourth and one if we were able to make the play and I think Cody Barton and Bobby Wagner made unbelievable play.


And so, yeah, I think you're fired up, but then you're trying to stay neutral at the same time. Right, because you got this chance. But you so you zone out. Did things slow down because that's the thing. It does seem like for you and for Brady and a couple others, when there's moments like that, it seems like you lock in in a in an almost a different way. But I don't know that. Does it slow down for you a little.


And if it does, how do you make it slow down? Things become still then just slow down. Things become still. You know, I think that, you know, for me, how it happens is because I've already trained my mind on it every day. I mean, every day I'm working on something around, you know, my mentality and slowing down. I even try to slow down. I try to slow down my heart rate physically, really try to slow down my heart rate physically.


And just, you know, try to make my heart rate heartbeat just go slower, you know, and and so for me, I think the ability to slow the game down, the midst of chaos while everybody else is moving fast and everybody's talking fast and that I try to talk slow.


And that's something that I've really captured, I think. But also, I think that when you do speak, you speak vision, your vision that guides what's going to happen. This is what's going to look guys in the eye. I'm I'm old school. You know, I'm a romantic by Hartville, you know. You know, when I this year and I go on dates and stuff like that, I, I try to do my best to put my phone down and really look at it.


And I you know, I'm almost there and I and seducer by looking and I the whole time I'm not going to I'm not going to come off of it. You know, it's one of those things that the same thing when I'm in the huddle with guys in a different way, I'm trying to get them done in one way with Sierra, the other the other way is just trying to win the game. But, you know, I think the reality is, is that you try to give guys confidence of, yeah, this guy's this guy's aware, you know, here we go.


And then all the studying I've been I've done hours and hours and hours of film work and preparation. I mean, in the midst of all that, I feel like I've been here already, know what they're going to do. All right. They already know what we're going to do. And meaning that they're like, oh, shoot, they're going to probably win this game. And I want them to feel that every time I walk. I think when you play guys like, you know, Tom, you you know, just as I watched them on TV or whatever it may be, it's like you feel like he's got to win the game every time in the game.


When I watch Michael Jordan when I was a young kid, I mean, I you knew who was getting the ball, you know, you knew what was going to happen and he may pass it or whatever, but he's gonna make the right decision. But the reality is, is that if he gets a chance, you believed he's going to make it every time. Right. Same thing I feel about Tiger Woods when he was in his height of his career.


I mean, that clutch. But you just knew he was going to make it. You felt like he's going to like this. But the other thing is, I think about Derek Jeter when he comes up to the play, I think about two plays with Derek Jeter. One, when the ball goes down the right field line, he goes in and runs down. He's not supposed to be there, but he runs and just instinctually goes and gets the ball and flips it behind his back and takes a guy out at home, decide to tax a guy out at home.


Yeah, that was some of my favorite memories when when Derek Jeter comes up to the plate for his last at bat and of course, he gets a first pitch base hit Wednesday game. I mean, that's because he's already played it through his head. And so for me, I've already played it through my head. My dad used to always talk about, you know, visualization when I was young. Visualize where you're going to be, son. This is you're twenty six years old.


I was nine years old, son. You're twenty six year old, you know, what are you doing? Where you where you at to talk me and I would start off like, well, dad, I'm here. That's not good enough, son. Take me there. Take me there. And so for me, I think that's always been something I've always believed in is, you know, I want to feel the ground. I want this I want to I want to feel every dimple of the ball.


I want to be in that moment. So in tune that, you know, and remaining neutral in the midst of it all, that I think it's going to help me be successful more times than not.


You know, I spent two days with Bill Russell in 2012, ironically, in Seattle, because he lives in Mercer Island and he was talking about. What he went through mentally before games, where like five, six hours before the game, he would just spend all that time visualizing how he thought the game was going to go and what moves different, like if they're playing the Lakers, like just thinking about all the different ways Jerry West might try to attack him offensively and what he was going to do.


And he was like by the time the game started, I'd already played the game in my head and it was actually kind of easy to do it. And he was like, one of the reasons I had to retire was I couldn't keep that energy in my head anymore of being able to carry that for five hours of bringing into the game. I was just like too too tired from it. It's the same thing, right? It's it's almost like half of the battle.


Is that five, six hours before the game or whatever to to imagine what's going to happen again and then you're ready.


It sounds like what you're saying 100 percent. I actually actually really close with Bill Russell, too, and he looks, you know, five, ten minutes away from me. Yeah. I've spent a lot of time with him. He's amazing, man. Amazing is super funny. By the way, this thing those cracks me up. But, you know, one of the things that make Bill Russell listen to my grandfather, my my dad so much about about him was, like you said, he he knew the game so well and he understood his teammates so well to Israel.


Said he used to set out transfer. Yeah. I mean, he he just understood the game so well, the ins and outs of it. And I think that visualization is a lost art in this generation. I think this is the work ethic and the mentality is a lost art. You know, the really the guys who really study the game and fully understand it and work at their craft, those are the guys who are the most successful more times than not in history.


History shows that, too.


It's a good lesson for younger athletes, too, like my daughter played, hadn't played soccer for nine months because of covid and then had a tournament last weekend. And she was like, I haven't had contact in games since March. And I was like and I was thinking about the Bill Russell thing. And I was like, you just got to think in your head, like, remember what to do, like visualize different things and where you go and and where you're supposed to be and just concentrate on that couple hours before.


It is weird that people don't think that way where you know and I'm sure LeBron does it. I'm sure all the great ones do it. And as you learn, when did you did you know how to do that instinctively when you got in the league, or was it something you realized like four or five years in?


No, I knew how to do it instinctively. I did it since high school and college. So my dad was he had always kind of had me doing it. But I would say my craft has grown, you know, you always building your craft, you know, the way you practice it. What I found out in the pros, though, was not just doing it on game day or the the night before the game, but I do it daily now.


Yeah. Daily Gift is a daily craft. And how many times throughout the day it's not just trying to do it once a day, it's how many times can I visualize throughout the day they get me prepared and how many times throughout the day can I remain neutral throughout the day. And so there's so many highs and lows, there's so many pressures playing this position, being one of thirty two men in the world and all the responsibilities that it carries and in the face of a franchise and being with all the things going on in America right now, being African-American, playing quarterback, all the things that come with it, family to kids and worry about your family and kids and everything else too as well.


And just all these things going on covid. I think it's going on, all these distractions, all these real things that are life scenarios, it all has played into this year in so many different ways. And so the one thing that I knew, really two things that I knew was football. The ball is going to be kicked off at some point. Yeah. And Russell Wilson is going to be ready when the ball's kicked off. That was the thing I told my performance doesn't matter.


I don't care when the ball's kicked off, we're going to be ready. And that was the first thing. The second thing was, which is probably the most important thing is, is that. Adjusting in the midst of the chaos and knowing that there's going to be changes. And how will you adjust to the change you see, greatness is not just it didn't just happen. You've been consistently great and things are great and good and easy. It's it's really about being consistently great when there's adversity and how fast can you change in the midst of adversity.


And I think that's really what I've understood. And I think that I've really learned in the process and of obsessed over over the years.


It was really fun watching Brady for almost 20 years there. And occasionally he would drop a little tidbits about that position and things he learned. And one of my favorite ones was about how he learned to prepare for being in a Super Bowl and how different a Super Bowl was than any other game because of the lead up to the game and then how long the halftime was. And he was saying basically the first time he was ending its Arad's, he was so hyped.


And there's that famous video of him before the game, like headbutting teammates, they go out to take a 14 three lead. By the time it got to halftime, he was like wiped, you know, like he played the Cipro Bowl. It's another there's a thirty five minute break and then there's a whole second half.


So by the time he got to that Atlanta game, when they had the famous comeback, he was in what you call neutral, where he's just like he's trying to save it. He's he knows it's a different game. He's trying to pace himself so that he peaks at the right time. You must have felt the same way after your two Super Bowl experience is right. If you get back there, similar philosophy, right. You're one hundred percent. You know, actually, the cool thing is my rookie year, I was fortunate to, you know, get Rookie of the Year and do all that stuff and go to New Orleans.


The Super Bowl is actually New Orleans. And I actually went to go watch the Super Bowl there. And it was the famous Super Bowl between the 49ers and the Ravens. Oh, yeah, I would say that. And Destiny's Child came out and Beyonce and everything else. And and, you know, Beyonce, Kelly and Michelle are out there. And next, you know, the lights cut off the shut off boom. And I knew the halftime was about 30 minutes next to, you know, freaking hour and a half or whatever it was before they played football again.


And I'll never forget that in my rookie year, I was sitting there. I was sitting there in the box and I was watching the game and I was like, OK, think I got there two or three hours before I had done that. I think the the broadcasting before I think was for CBS or something. I was sitting there with Bill Keller and those guys and talking to them and I was asking those guys about the Super Bowl. And one of the things they said, well, Russ, one thing, when you get here and it's it's it's a long halftime now, so we just know that that's what I was paying attention to.


That and pregame, everybody's excited. But just we'll be interested to see quarterbacks and how they come in and how can they can they remain calm? Well, that's for halftime happens. And as I'm watching the game, just play out. Guys are gas. Guys are tough. Yeah. Guys are getting injured, this and that. And so I'll never forget, you know, going coming back home to Seattle. When I got back to Seattle after that and I told Coach Carroll, I told Tator my quarterback coach at the time, I said, you guys, I got the secret.


And then they're like, well, what does? I said, I think we should take a shower at halftime and just start again as we start again. Just, you know, be fresh and be ready to roll. Well, like really I said, we'll think about halftime. Thirty five minutes. I mean, just to put new pads on stretched in the locker room. And sure enough, that's what we did when we played the Broncos in New York.


You know, supposed to be snowing like crazy and everything else. And it was a perfect night. I mean, at the full moon, Joe Namath comes out in this mink coat and everything else. And, you know, and he does the coin toss and he says the ref does a coin toss and they flip the coin toss. And meanwhile, it's Joe Namath, Peyton Manning, Champ Bailey on the other side. It's me over here. And they Keith Bardwell and I think Red Bryant, the captains and these Hall of Famers on that side.


And the ref gives the coin toss. You know, we're the team. He gives the coin to to Joe. And you have the honor to flip the coin toss and Joe flips it and, you know, and he doesn't give me a chance to say heads or tails and the ref catches it midair because. Joe, Joe, Joe, Joe, you know, Letrozole, heads or tails, Joe, Joe, Joe Namath looks at me, leads in with me.


Go and Peyton's laughing and everything else. He leans and he says, you know, Russ, I always had a quick release and and that's when everything broke. The ice broke for me. In that moment, I was like, yeah, amazing, I'm here. But what I what I understood about that game is it was we went back into the locker when we were up at the time we went back in the locker room, I showered up.


I put my pads back on. I just felt like I was prepared then. So when we played the second time, we felt like we were prepared and unfortunate we didn't win the game. But, you know, I think preparation, the separation is in the preparation, how you prepare, how you get your mind right or anything else, especially for those moments. And, you know, I I finally believe it's really important to to play with great emotion, but not being emotion.


You know, yeah, and there's a difference and there's a difference, and to be out of balance, that's key. Do you feel like you're better this year than you've been before or they're just let you throw more? I think I'm playing the best, you know, that I've played and I think, you know, just seeing everything so clear, I definitely had great years before, you know, I think. But it seems like the aggression, you know, when I was you know, I was a rookie.


And speaking of Peyton Manning, I was a rookie right before I actually became a rookie. You know, you fly to every team and I'll never forget this was my last team I got to go see. And they had just Denver Broncos that just signed Peyton Manning. I was in the locker. I went to the locker room. He was in there. Just me and Peyton. Don't I know you from somewhere?


And I pay. My name's Russell Wilson I to these days. Oh yeah. I coach you my my my passing academy. I said yeah, yeah. And he had picked the top twelve guys and I was one of them and I have a picture of it. It's pretty cool. And so anyways you know Peyton, I'm looking and I got there the thing, the first thing I notice is he was taking notes and highlighting and it's just him sitting there in the locker room by himself.


It's the first week he had gotten it, all these notes and things. And and so I think that one of the things that I noticed about it was, was the amount of studying and preparation that he put into it. Right. And so when I got back on the plane to fly back home to Virginia, I started writing out my goals and my goals. I wrote down everyday goals. I wrote down legacy goals. And I still have in my locker to this day.


And one of the goals that I that I kind of wrote down was treat every day, no matter what year it is, if it's year one or year 12, treat every day in every play as if you've never heard it before, if you've never heard it before. And so something that I really, you know, took time to understand was he got to trust the process and you've got to respect the process along the way. And I think that was a big thing for my career early on, was that I wanted to come in as a professional.


And in today, I think because I've treated every day as a new day and it's as if I never heard it before. I've learned and retained so much information and experiences and visualization that I'm that their only way is up. The only way is up, and I think that's a good fortune, good health and all that stuff, but also it's having great teammates and leading those guys to as well, to giving them the vision and expertise and showing them.


And this is who you can be. This is what we're going this is the expectation. And having those high standards, whether if it's, you know, during the season playoff time or if it's out of season. I mean this as a compliment, not an insult. I think you're the same guy you've been for the last few years. I think two things are different. You're throwing the ball more and Metcalf is special. He really is not like you didn't have other good receivers, but he's special.


And Collins Firth said something on Sunday night's game that he said he was talking to you about Metcalf. And you said. This guy has a chance to be one of the best receivers ever. He has a chance to be Jerry Rice and I get to be Montana like, I can't believe it. Did you say that? And do you feel that way? Yeah, I do.


I do. I think that he's bigger than Jerry. He's bigger. He's probably faster. But he's got the you know, Jerry had such great work ethic when I said that. What I meant by that was, is that one minute in number two is, is that I think that Jerry Rice had the work ethic. You know, he had the work ethic every day. I mean, I've been cut up. So I've seen cut ups of Jerry Rice's practice film.


Obviously, everybody knows the hills and running the hills and all that. He's just he's different in that way. But also is that his work ethic at practice? Every ball that he caught, he was run into the end zone, every ball, and he set the tone at practice, which right behind him, here comes Terrell Owens playing behind him and learning from him. And and then, you know, all these other great receivers as he was, you know, number eighty four for the forty Niners.


And meanwhile, Joe Montana spinning the ball to him. And, you know, I think that that quarterbacks receiver relationship. It starts with vision, it starts with a work ethic and the relationship and the amount of time that you spend together and and also just being clutch, being clutch. And I think that the thing that I think. I don't think I know that Dick I have built is a real pure, strong relationship and spent so much time together, we spent so much time together this offseason.


I mean, we spent time in Mexico. We went down there where we can have right before kind of kova kind of blew up and and we kind of just got in isolation there and just got the train down there in the heat, 100 degrees, you know, and just the amount of reps that we took to perfected and perfected and perfected and perfected. I mean, two and a half, three, four hour throwing sessions and then working out and swimming.


And I thought she taught him how to swim you and how to swim. So you know this all the time.


All the time that we spent together and then and we went back then. I also live in San Diego too. So we went down to San Diego and just we spent time there for a couple of weeks. And, you know, he kind of lived with me for a little bit there. And so it was, you know, there's no mistaking it. And, you know, my challenge to him every day is let's set the tone every day.


Yeah. Let's push let's push the envelope. Let's try to be the best version of ourselves every single day. And let's try to be right every single time. That fourth and ten against Minnesota. Just watching them like you started to Metcalf, they should just put seven guys on you through the back half, he ends up making the point anyway. I think the race point is really key, though, to me. He's like the the the last great, great, great football player.


He's the best wide receiver I've ever seen. He was to me, it's like not even argument in football. We could argue about Brady or Manning and all these different things. And it's not like basketball where the hierarchy is so obvious. And with football, it's really like Jerry Rice is the best receiver ever. Lawrence Taylor is the best pass rusher ever. Everybody kind of agrees on those two things. But race, all the stuff he was doing was so far ahead of his time with how he worked on his body, the repetition, the practice, like people were doing that in the 80s.


You know, now everybody's doing it. And you look at Dick and you're like, all right, this is like race. If you put race back into a lab, you added 30 pounds of muscle. You made a bigger, maybe more. You gave the work ethic. But it's crazy because at the end of the second round, I remember talking to Pete about it, but we're doing one of the podcasts. I was like, I don't understand.


How did you get this guy? Like, how good is he special? He's just like goes nuts talking about him. But when did you know he was special? Immediately. Yeah, when we actually had the first time. Soon as he got drafted, he was passionate about it, he said, when we working, when we work in and as this is you, as soon as you land, we'll be ready, you know?


So I think that he had that that was the first question he asked, you know, working. And I think it wasn't about the flash and the glamour. Yes. He's you know, he's tall and fast, big muscles and all that kind of stuff. And he's is all the things that you could put together on a video game. But the reality is, is that, you know, he's about the work, about the work. And a lot of guys aren't, you know.


Right. You know, not not on our team. Our guys are. But, you know, he's he's about the work and he loves it. He loves the game. He loves being physical in every way, you know, in terms of, you know, blocking and catching and everything. And so and he wants to be great at his craft. Speaking of video games, you got to 99 in Madden, I think they announced today you're a nine year ninety nine club.


Got pretty sick, man. Yeah, yeah, it was pretty cool. That surprised me. I was doing my podcast, Danger Talk with Ken Griffey Jr., actually. Yeah. I'm sitting there. I'm sitting there with Jim. We're talking about, you know, the Seattle legacy. Life is success as beautiful swing and everything else. The next thing I know as a middle of my podcast, DKA comes in. I don't like surprises, but I hate surprises.


But next thing I know, cakewalks. And I'm like, what are you doing here? He interrupts podcast. He's like, Man, I got to tell you the part of the 99 club. And so we got 99 on the one side of the phone with Ken Griffey Jr. and then yeah, I get to be at ninety nine. Dick's going to be the next night nine. So it was pretty cool man.


Just a dream come true. I remember playing Madden when I was a young kid. Oh yeah. And just throwing my controller and you know, everything else had been playing my, playing my friends all day, all night and just but to get there, you know, I think is as a blessed kid. But it's about staying there, you know, it's about getting to put the work in. You mentioned Griffy, so there's like the Seattle I have a real soft spot for Seattle.


I love the city and I also still outraged that they stole the Sonics. But there's there's a Seattle hierarchy, Griff, in it. You're obviously in it. Who else is in it? Who are like the icons?


Oh, man. Griffy for sure. Griffy. I mean, Griffy. Was that the coolest baseball player for the entire 90s? Well, he he brought swag to the game, you know. Yeah. Changed the game of baseball. I mean, he he hit the ball was just but, you know, one of the things that we talked about on the podcast was that he loved defense. He's like me. I loved hitting home runs, but he hit 630 home runs, 630.


And, you know, but the thing he loved is he loved diving for but for balls and throwing guys out at home and, you know, jumping the fence and making plays and robbing those home runs like that. And so, you know, he loved that part of the game. He he was sitting there, you know, in the podcast, he said on the podcast with his 12 gold gloves. He has like ten, but like really 12 behind.


Yeah. And I think he's gotten 12 or whatever is a lot of a lot of gold gloves. I know. And so, you know, he just he's the epitome of success and what it looks like and and, you know, I was, you know, 17, 18 years old when got drafted and played with his dad when he was 19, 20 years old and back to back home runs all the success. But in terms of Seattle, you know, Junior, for sure, no one, you know, super, you know, she's right there.


She's right there. She's amazing. Largent is Lajon in there.


So, Steve, I would say Steve Largent's up there for sure because he was like the only great Seahawk for 20 years, basically.


Yeah, they've had some they've had some good ones. You know, Steve Cortez Kennedy, unfortunately, he's not here anymore, but they've had some really good. But in terms of the best in the world, in the world, you know, he's got super Ken Griffey Jr. I think Steve Largent was amazing. But, you know, you have had some success and then Kevin Durant should have been in there. He should have he should have been there and then and they stole away our songs.


We gotta get the Sonics back. But, you know, it was cool listening to to Junior talk about, you know, just his success and his family and how his mom was super competitive. His mom always pushed him and, you know, his mom would cuss people out, you know, and and just get him, get him go. And it just be so competitive. I learned so much from him, you know, you know, in danger talk just because it was it was cool talking to one of my idols that I've always loved and a guy that I've always learned from.


So that was that was awesome. I need to ask you a question. I just started my Dange Talk podcast, and it's been it's been awesome, you know, along the way because, you know, I've had some special guests. We've had Shaq talking about his relationship with Kobe and just access over the years. You know, we've had that I was the first episode on Dange Talk. We had a second episode was pretty cool. We at John David Washington.


Third one was was actually Randy Moss talking about Bill Belichick, your boy, not him, cussing out him and and Tom Brady at practices. We had Chris Paul talking about the NBA bubble and and Candace Parker, you know, and, you know, when the sports means to the world and all the amazing things and what she learned from Kobe. And and then we just as I said, we just had Ken Griffey Jr. and I think Matthew McConaughey is coming on next week.


But the way. Yeah, I think because we I'm excited. Get Matthew McConaughey because, you know, he's so entertaining. He loves that Texas football, obviously. But, you know, for you, I want to get some advice from you just in terms of, you know, your podcast and how how I can make my podcast as special as yours. Man, you've put so much work in. And what was your vision when you first started years?


First of all, I appreciate that. Well, I started mine in 07, we didn't really understand it. I just thought it was cool, was like radio and I had no idea it was going to kind of turn into what it became. But I think the cool thing that I eventually learned probably around the second year was the long form conversations. What an advantage it was, because I think podcasts are completely authentic. And if you're not authentic over the course of an hour, you're probably going to get exposed.


And I think that's. That's what stood out to me, is like you really get a feel for what somebody is like, I think for you is some of the people that you're going to have on. I'm really fascinated, like here's your stuff and like what your routine is and how you approach things. And you're talking to other people about how they approached their craft. That's probably would be the number one thing I would want out of that, because that's like a whole separate secret club you guys have.


Right? Like, if you had on, you could do two hours just on shit you guys are doing, just doing.


And that would be the advantage you have. Right. As in whether you're doing an actor or a singer or anybody like approaching how they do their craft versus how you do it, I think would be really interesting.


Yeah, it's been fun for me because like I said, I've been able to interview some of the best of all time. And I think the cool part about danger talk has been, I think people not just getting to know the guests, but also people getting to know me because I've been honestly, I've been more on this show. But I've for my first few years, you know, you're just trying to get ready to play the game. You want to play and be great young and do your thing.


And but now I think there's a there's a there's a responsibility for me to to affect the world and affect young kids and to use my platform to for greater good. And it got to give me vision and the ability to to talk about what I get to do in my craft. And I've learned it. I've been able to. And you never fully master it because you're always working it, always working in your craft. And so for me, when I love talking about endangered talk is just, you know, people's crafts.


And, you know, that's what I'm excited about along the journey. So I've I've always listened to your podcast and I've always loved it because, as you mentioned, it's so genuine and authentic when you listen to people and you get to have those one on one conversation. That's always been the part that I really love because I, I get to do, you know, five minute, 10 minute interviews every week. And it's like, OK, you talk about football.


And I try to be very straightforward. I don't want to give give any information away and trying to do that.


And but this is really these conversations what I really love and getting intimate, you know, hearing all that. So I love the big one.


You do. You need to get LeBron on and just talk about what he does to his body and all that.


I have this on that for like five hours because we had we had Jared Dudley on and he said LeBron had two hyperbaric chambers in Orlando. I mean, LeBron, that they he has this whole process. It was like we're just because I'm in the bubble. I'm not wavering from what I do every day for my body. I'm not going to ever recover.


You know, it's so true, you know, just because I'm I'm in my own little covid bubble here at home. Yeah. It's you got to have everything prepared. I'm getting people tested every single day and, you know, people who helped me and Sierra. And it's a process for sure. But you have to adjust to it. And I think that's been part of the conversation. I think obviously on Dana Talk, you know, having my life account is going to be cool talking about his career, not just in acting, but just his life in general and.


Yeah, and everything else. We have some pretty cool guys. I think Tom's going to come on at some point, I believe. And and LeBron and LeBron somebody you know, he had the NBA playoffs. I wanted him to do his thing. But at some point I think it'd be a great conversation talking about just preparation.


And when I look like and with the covid stuff. The best way to approach that is just to not think about it. All right. You just worry about the game I have this week. Who knows what's going to happen to the schedule, try to bank some wins because this might end up being a 12 week schedule. Who knows? There's no way to predict it.


There's no way to predict it. We talk about it, though, you know, for the Seahawks. We talk about it all the time because it's so important to keep guys awareness levels high, you know, and when you're getting tested every day, your awareness level is high. Naturally, it's easy to get comfortable. It's easy to get comfortable. And the thing is, is that we can't get comfortable for all NFL players. We have to take care of our families and our loved ones and our friends and our teammates and our coaches.


I worry more about the coaches and the players because the coaches are the ones that are 50, 60, 70 years old. Sometimes, you know, Coach Carrolls, 16 years old. So, you know, and so taking care of himself is really important. So we got to we have that responsibility as players to do that, too, OK?


This was fun. I enjoyed talking to you. I've enjoyed watching you. I've learned never to bet against you. You're you and Rodgers are my two. I'm never betting the money light on the other team for a significant amount, guys, because it's just not fun to be especially that like sun where it's like, oh, man, they didn't get the first out, really. The rest is just going to go down and take it. But it's been fun to watch you throw more.


I feel like you're the same guy. It's the equivalent of like, you know, James Harden can score thirty five points a game if he has more shots, like you're throwing more and you're going to have better stats. But it's been awesome to watch you over the years and I enjoyed having you on. Good luck with your podcast. Let me know if I can help in any way.


Yeah, man, it'd be great to have you on some time. Know. Let me know I'm here. You're the best in the world. What you do. I'm grateful for you. Great for you having me. And we'll have to get dinner sometime. I'll, I'll, I'll get the tab. I'll get the tab.


Well we should have dinner and figure out the next thing. You can really be your legacy in Seattle other than the Super Bowls is bringing basketball back. It's I know that's a top seven NBA city. It's an outrage.


The top five. Yeah. I mean, the place is a place goes nuts, but we'll make it happen over the next five, ten years, hopefully. And they have the money for the luxury suites. That's the part I can't figure out. Like it's like Golden State. Basically they would have all the rich people in the Seattle area would want to get courtside. Shit. That's how you pay for the teams. Well, state of Washington loves basketball, so Seattle loves it.


You know, we've got to put this on his back post football season, but we'll talk. All right. Thanks for coming out. Appreciate it.


Thanks, but always, always a pleasure. Go hawks, baby. Thanks so much. That was great. It was an honor man. Yeah, we gotta do it any time you want me. Just just tell me, OK? We'll make sure it happens. All right. I hope I see you in the Super Bowl. Cam Newton versus Russell Wilson. Be great. Let's do it, man. All right. I'll see you, OK.


All right. We're going to do our picks in a second. Remember, Fanjul did not put me in charge of their sports book, but if they had, I would have come up with same game power for them. I'll tell you, you can you can do so many different things you do player props, point totals, money lines. Ghetty Just thinking about the best part. Fandor will refund the first same game parlay. You lose an NFL game each week up to ten dollars.


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Dana Jones loves to put the ball in the ground. And I think Washington has a pretty good defense. So if Washington is going to beat the Giants, odds are they're probably getting some sort of weird touchdown, right? Defense special teams plus eleven, thirty six. If you like it, go ahead and bet it. You'll get ten bucks, ten bucks back if we don't win dude. All season long. Remember Fandor, the only sportsbook app where you can play same game.


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All right.


It's time for a million of our picks for week six. Just terrible luck last week for me. I if you remember, I did a whole long shot parlay the week I had I had four long shots that I absolutely loved. The Vikings, the Chargers, the Jaguars in the Dolphins. The Dolphins won the Vikings. Just completely, completely blew it last second and then the Chargers completely blew it on Monday night, so three of my four, I parlayed them six different ways.


So really, if the Vikings, Chargers and Dolphins all won, I would have won three of the six bets. And they were all like ranging from plus to forty four to plus 16, 16. So I was bummed.


I mean, granted it's fake money and who cares. But it was a bummer.


I felt like I really nailed last week. This week's a little harder some lessons that I just wanted to apply really quickly. We are no longer ever allowed to put Phil Rivers in a tease or trust him in any way after what he did to us last week. If you had the Colts, I just don't trust him. And he's going to come up later. And one of our bets and believe me, he's not going to be on the right side.


So I really like that Colts team. And until they figure out the quarterback thing, I'm just I'm not betting on them and I'm not trusting them. I thought he single handedly murdered them last week. He really did. And then the Patriots, who seem like an obvious like if Cam Newton hadn't just come back from covid and God knows how healthy is, how good is feeling. I probably would have thrown them in a seven points or Palek, because I think I think they have you know, they're better than the Broncos, but I don't trust any of these people coming back from covid.


I think we've seen really mixed results. He hasn't practiced.


It's not just the practicing is you're not conditioning either. You're not working out, just taking it easy. So that game worries me. I actually thought about the Broncos who are plus nine and a half as a possible underdog parlay with somebody just because Drew likes coming back and their defense hasn't been bad. But so we're staying away from that.


Here's what I'm looking at. Panthers, Bears, Panthers, minus one and a half. You've heard me in the last couple of weeks. I really like this Panthers team. That rule has been great.


This team's really well coach. We won money with them here last week.


The bears are weirdly overvalued. I think people like their defense. I think people are overvaluing that weird Bucs game that they want a little bit on on on Thursday night, their third in defensive DVOA great. But a couple of the other numbers aren't as flattering for them. The bears are twenty third in DVOA right now as a four and one team. And if you watch them like they had no business beating Detroit in week one, they barely beat the Giants.


And we to they won a ridiculous Atlanta comeback in week three with Foles. They had no business winning that last. Indianapolis scored eleven points and then barely beating up on a Thursday night. I'm just not sold. And then you have Carolina is seventh in offensive DVOA but twenty fifth defensively dvoa.


I'm ok with that because I don't think this Bears team can really move the ball. Not sold on them, I don't like their run game at all. I thought they should have signed Le'Veon Bell today. You know, it was it came down to him between the chiefs and the Dolphins. And I'm looking at it like, man, if you went to the Bears, he'd be like that every down back for them. So I like the Panthers. I'm in on Bridgewater.


I love their receivers. And the good thing about them is, unlike with the Colts, when the Colts go down by 10, you just give up because there's no way rivers are going to get it back. The Panthers can throw the ball and they have two receivers that can make plays. And again, Christian McCaffrey doing three. So we're going to mark down Panthers minus one and a half. Second one is the Rod Tidwell classic Cowboys Cardinals, although this is in Dallas, not Arizona.


You know, dak terrible injury breaks his ankle. And. Everybody writes up the Cowboys, eh, the Cowboys weren't that good to begin with, B ended down by far, best backup in the league and C, any dogs never had receivers like this. He's never been on a team like this. Think about the teams Andy Don's been on like AJ Green, who is good for a couple of years and then just got hurt every year after that.


You know, other than that, did you want Bengals and your fantasy team? Like, how many times did you have Giovani Bernard and start them one week and you'd get like three points? Dalton is confident, you know, the question for me is how much of a dropoff it is for from Dak? To Dalton, I don't feel like it's a massive drop off. Which brings me to my third case for Dach. I'm sorry, how many Super Bowls did the Cowboys make with that?


Oh yeah, zero. So I don't know. I could see Dalton winning this week and starting this whole. People kind of look at each other going way down, like really good with that team. We sure Dallas just doesn't have awesome skill players. Maybe that's why maybe that's why Dacos put up those numbers. I like that. By the way. I'm just pointing that out. Dallas has also had terrible turnover there, minus eight with turnovers. And I mean, obviously, a lot of them were their fault, but they're 16 TVO, Arizona's 19 DVOA.


I don't like the way the cards look. I have Cayler as my my quarterback in both leagues. I don't know why they can't run the ball. I don't know what happened in Kenya Drake this year, but that was another team Le'Veon Bell could have signed with. I think they have trouble moving the ball when they need to, and, you know, last week it didn't matter because they were playing a crap team. This week, it's probably not going to matter either because they're playing Dallas.


But I'm skeptical of Arizona's ability to win a high scoring game. And I think Dallas will continue to put up points with Don. So American them down there plus one and a half. Third one. That I really like. Steelers over the Browns do us a favor by three and a half. I'm going to grab that. I'm going to knock them down to minus three, which is a minus one 30. So if you bet, if I bet three hundred ninety thousand on the Steelers, if I win and win 300, if I lose, I lose three ninety.


Usually it's a minus one line. Cleveland's plus six four turnovers. They've been super lucky in that front. Baker's hurt. He's got a rib's thing Odel missed practice today, we don't know what's going on with him Pitts' 13th and DVOA, Cleveland's 18th and DVOA.


And I've got the chance to watch Cleveland pretty closely. They can run the ball very well. They have a seems like a pretty good coach now. I don't really like Baker and. I think. Against the Steelers team, you're not just going to be able to run on them to win the game, he's going to have to make plays. I don't trust him. As I think this is a fuck you game for Pittsburgh, because the mouthguard thing last year.


Where that turned into a he said he said thing, but I don't know, I think the farther away I think Tomlin's good at this stuff, I think Tollman is a really good motivator. And there's going to be a fucking to the Steelers thing, which these games have it anyway. They have the fuckheads to begin with. I think they're better. I want to knock it down to minus three to be safe so I don't get blown over by the late touchdown or anything like that, but I feel pretty good about this one.


I think the Steelers I was impressed last week. It really felt like that Eagles game was going to slip away from them and that they're just fucking it up. And and they just kind of they did. They did their thing. They did like the Tollman era. We're just taking this game. We're pulling it out thing. Their weapons, Claypool's, been awesome. He's really been more valuable than Joujou in a lot of ways, I don't love how they run the ball.


I haven't loved what I've seen from Connor this year, but I like that Steelers team and I think they're better than the Browns. So they're going to prove it. So we got that. Then we got to Underdog's, I'm looking at. So if you're looking for the long shot guys, the long shot plays like the Bengals are there, plus eight against Indy is mildly intrigued by them. Their son looks like he's come back for the Colts, the Broncos, they're depending where you look, probably around nine and a half point underdogs against the Pats.


Dulac is back and then the Eagles are seven 1/2 point or eight point underdogs against Baltimore. Thought about mixing and matching them, but. Washington is plus one twenty six to beat the Giants and then the Bengals, if you if you have the Bengals beating the Colts, which is just a pure. This is Phil Rivers going to hell week. This is like Phil Rivers last week as starting quarterback. Joe just goes in and sticks it to them and throws the ball all over them.


And Phil Rivers can't match points with them. And this is the week we realized Phil Rivers has done that is plus eight of four washed him money line Bengals money line against Indy. And I'm going to put I'm going to put a little down on that, I'm going to put a 20 K just a little tiny one on that. There's another Washington long shot parlor. I really like, though, and this is courtesy of our friends from Fandor. It's the same game parlay washed the money line.


With Washington will score a defensive special teams touchdown I talked about at the top, that's plus eleven thirty six. So we're going to put it we're going to sprinkle a little something on both of those. The last one I wanted to talk about is Niners Rams. So. I really like this Rams team, I bet on them to win the NFC. Niners have looked awful, you know, and they're having the season from hell. I get it, every instinct says stay away.


Well, for one thing, the line dropped from three and a half to three. Interesting. Second, everybody's are in the off. They suck. Oh, my God. Made me kill them. Well, they're starting to get dudes back. And Jimmy obviously wasn't ready last week. He's, you know, playing on the bad ankle sprain. Most are coming back. I really like. Here's the thing. To me, this is a kitchen sink game because San Francisco's next seven games are Rams, Pats, Seattle, Green Bay, New Orleans by week, Rams Buffalo.


They lose this game. Your seasons in an official tailspin. So when I said kitchen sink game. We've seen this come up from time to time. These are the ones where it's like. We are winning this game, we're running fake punts, we're doing reverses where the wide receiver ends up throwing downfield, where we're going to send George Kittle on fourth and one's on 50 yard streaks and anything.


It takes weird blitzes, you name it. And I like them plus three at least. I think it's a close game. It feels like a three point game to me. And I don't totally trust Goff either. I still don't. You're never going to get me interested. Jared Goff. So. I have that marked down, the one the only one I'm staying away from is Packers, Bucs. Packers are one point favorites of the Bucs. Every instinct I have tells me to take the Packers.


Aaron Rodgers and the Packers are better coached. Tampa just lost their nose. Tackle is really good. Always seems like one of their wide receivers is banged up. You look at the penalties. Green Bay, one of the best run teams in the league right now. Forty three penalties. Tampa, seventy for Tampa. Just can't stay out of its own way. You know, they're getting twelve points a game. They're doing dumb shit. The quarterback's pretty went down.


It is. Something looks too easy to me about this game, and I know the bucks are like Second and DVOA and there's some advanced metrics, but I don't I thought the Packers are going to be favored by three. So I'm staying away. I kind of want to see this one. I think we'll know more about both these teams after this game. But my instinct is saying Packers will win this. So anyway, here's what we're doing. Million dollar pics, week six thousand three hundred K and the Panthers, minus one and a half over the Bears.


And if you don't trust me, that one, just ask yourself a question. Are the bears really going to go five and one the F out of here. Got that. Got the Cowboys plus one and a half over the Cardinals in the Rod Tidwell classic. You in theory committee is watching this game very, very, very closely, going to put three hundred K on that. And we're going to put three, so this one, the other ones are three thirty two point three hundred thirty two point three ninety to win three hundred Steelers minus one three I'm sorry, Steelers minus three at minus one thirty odds.


To cover against the Browns of Cleveland in what I like to call a fuck you game for Pittsburgh, and then we're going to put 20 K just a special Fandor bet. Plus, eleven thirty six on Washington to beat the Giants and to get a defense of special teams touchdown. So both of those things have to happen. Plus eleven, thirty six. And then we'll put it out. We'll put another twenty K on Washington and Bengals both to win parlay for the long shot parlay of the week.


That is plus eight of four for this season. I'm down two hundred ninety six thousand dollars. I have won three out of the four weeks. I won two hundred and forty last week. I would have gone into the positive if the freaking Chargers had just taken care of business. Damu Anthony Lynn. You always do it to me. Why do you do it? Why can't you just finish games? Uh, anyway, that is the million dollar PEX.


Four weeks, six. All right, last but not least, so there's this movie called Shit House that is coming out on demand this weekend. It is starring and written and directed by Cooper Raef, who is a very young filmmaker who made this movie when he was in college on a shoestring budget. And I just really like the movie. And I thought there was something special about it. We do not the ringer does not have an investment in the movie, nothing like that.


It's just the kind of movie that people stop making a while ago. Or if they did try to make it, it seemed, you know, like they're trying too hard, almost. This movie is not trying too hard. So I wanted to have him on with with Sean Fantasy, host of The Big Picture, a frequent host on The Troubles with me to just talk to Cooper about how he made the movie and the legacy of these kind of coming of age movies of people in college or right out of college, which I think this is going to end up, you know, being on that list.


So here's that interview right now. And if you want to check out, it has again, it's available this weekend on demand. All right.


Sean Phantasy is here, a young director named Cooper, right? Not Rafe. Rafe, you were it was pronounced wrong. We won't say by who, but Cooper Raef, we loved your movie. You're this young kid. I love the legacy of young kid college movies, our young kid just out of college movies. And they stop making them because they stop making any movies that aren't about superheroes or whatever. And yet you make this movie by the seat of your pants and and now it's out.


Shit house. Congratulations.


Thank you so much. Thanks for wanting to talk to me. I really am so happy to be here.


But we wanted to help the movie. We have nothing at stake. Sean, why did you like this movie?


I think it took me back to a time when I felt like I didn't know what I was doing. So yesterday or twenty years ago, whichever is more appropriate. But yeah, I mean, I think we just it's not surprising. I think the bill and I both clicked with your movie and it just it seems somehow both very mature and very innocent at the same time and really thoughtful about a critical point in people's lives. So, like you should tell us about it, like where did it come from?


It came from just my sophomore year of college. I wanted to make a movie or spring break because I didn't have plans and I didn't know what I wanted to make a movie about. But I was just on a college campus. So it was like it should probably be about college. That's going to be the easiest thing to make. And but I made it with my two friends who are not filmmakers or actors, and they hated my guts all the time, didn't want to be there, but like, they're great friends.


So we just made this movie in five days and I put it on YouTube and then I tweeted that link to JT plus of the Duplass brothers. And I said, But you won't click on this link. And then after and like literally twelve hours later, he said, My wife and I watched the movie, do you want to get lunch? And I like what I wanted out of the tweet. I just said, like, email me at my Occy, my college email.


But so then we got lunch and then we talked about making that movie into like a bigger movie. That's how shit house. That's like the Genesis house.


We just did the re watchable. Sean wasn't on it. We didn't invite him kicking and screaming. It's like your generation. You don't fully understand it the way I did.


It's not Cooper's generation either. No, it's no, he's like two generations after. But that was no Bombach first movie. And we're breaking down how it perfectly captured. You know, it's called Genex now, but it was just pre Internet era where you kind of graduated and you didn't know what to do next and you just kind of drifted and all of a sudden nine months passed and you're kind of like, wait, is this my life? You're capturing this whole 20, 20 era of, you know, not just what college is like now, but also how important social media was and is.


And that was one of the things that really resonated with me about the courting process. And did somebody like your Instagram post and all that stuff. So all that stuff was so authentic. But did you even know going into making the movie, this has to be a piece of this? Like what? What's your thought process with that?


No, I actually the only reason why that part is in there is because I realized, oh, I didn't write a scene where he gets her number. So he has to find out, like, how to communicate with her that day. And the only way to do that is Instagram. And there's like I don't know how to do Instagram very well. And I'm very Cringely on that app. So I kind of wrote to Cringely like, I don't think it's a huge deal to go in like someone's photos.


But like when I showed it in the theater for the first time, people were screaming at the screen like, what are you thinking?


But then I keep going to like, I keep liking photos and I keep messaging and people I think, like, blacked out watching. But yeah, that's that's like I think I just got an Instagram like two years ago, so I'm really bad at it and don't realize like what's not OK to do on there. But people there's a there's there's a lot of rules that go unnoticed by me.


Hey, Sean, let's talk can we talk about the legacy of movies like this and how they're tied to different generations? Right. Because like The Graduate, I think and I listen, I'm not comparing shit house to all these different movies. I'm just I'm talking about better.


Cooper, can you beat the graduate of The Graduate, hit this specific point in generation, right. These clashes of these two different types of generations. And then you go through I don't know how many others, Sean, you know this better than me, but what? Kicking and screaming men. And each time somebody makes a movie like this and inadvertently is a snapshot of whatever is going on, what other movies are like that?


Sean with the John Hughes movies, speak to that Dazed and Confused speaks to that that kind of that chasm between the ages of like seventeen and twenty four. When you're trying to figure out who you are as a person, I think you really tapped into in your movie. Did you see those movies? Yes. Were you affected by them, did you take lessons from them? I, I, I watched all those movies, but I the biggest thing I take from, like, someone like Richard Linklater is not like trying to do a similar thing, but he's just such a kind director and he just cares about like he's OK with making a movie about kids, not knowing what they're doing and thinking that is what I should be making a movie about.


And so you just I think he grants permission to certain filmmakers to like, yeah, that is what it's OK to make a movie about that. And that's what people really relate to. And but yeah, I love those movies so much. I don't think I, I hate when people compare shit house to Before Sunrise because it is. Yes, it's true. Do a lot of them. But like they're talking about huge ideas and before sunrise like shit.


I never talked about reincarnation. It's just like two kids talking about their parents. And so I think but I think the inspiration with a guy like Richard Linklater is he's just such a nice filmmaker is like, do whatever you want on screen. That's what I'm interested in.


And that's how much ad libbing was going on with as you're doing this, because this was, as we said earlier, seat of your pants a little bit. Yes.


But we don't have any time to improvise, so we don't have any money or support to be like us. We can improvise now. And also, I'm not the confident filmmaker that like someone like Jay Duplessis who gets on set and he's like, I think we can find magic here. So I really try super hard with the script to write the legs and arms and have those moments so that when we go on set, we have that base for like now we can play a little bit and bring different energies if that happens.


But I don't feel confident in my ability to, like, provoke what we don't know what's going to happen, because Jay is someone like he's told me, I like to not know what's going to happen. And that's not how I feel. But I do like the themes of not knowing what's going to happen. So I try to write that for sure.


What about what about starring in the movie yourself?


We haven't said I mean, you are the star of this movie. You wrote this part for yourself. This character is does not a person who knows what he's doing, really. And you're sort of unafraid to kind of look like a fool and look, you know, like why were you why are you the star of your movie?


I really wish I knew that if I was going to cast someone, they were not going to be someone who had been to college. Because for our age, if the if the actor is good and successful, they didn't go to college like Logan, he plays my roommate didn't go to college. Maggie plays Maggie are still in the plays. Maggie didn't go to college. And I wanted to. And I also just wanted it to own what I was saying about what college meant.


And for me and I think there's like an immediacy that comes through with me playing it. But also I really like to act and I didn't want to direct it. And then it kind of came down to the wire and I realized, oh, I have to directed two. But I always did want to act in it because Alex is kind of stripped away. Like my first year, I was more like the roommate. I was like turning my brain off and drinking way too much.


And Alex was trying to get to the core of what I was feeling and going through on the inside. And I really wanted to do that. Like I was like excited, like in some of those scenes and like feel some of those feelings because I'm someone who doesn't in my real life. And I wanted to, like, get on camera and have the permission to do that.


You know, I got an email about this movie and I didn't know what it was, but I was just like, that seems like a movie I'd like. And I emailed the person, the PR person was like, can you send me a link? I think I would like this. And watched it with my wife who knew nothing. And we're watching and we're halfway through. And I was like, you know, the lead actor. He also directed this.


And she was like, what? He's he's like a kid. How did he direct this? And I was like, like, I don't know. This is I just had a feeling about this movie. But when you're directing it, you have like all these twenty, twenty advancements, everything's cheap. Now, if you do this in nineteen ninety, you're looking around cameras, you know, you have to worry about certain things. But in a weird way, technology came to your side to be able to make a movie like this, right.




And the first thing that we did was literally for zero dollars because we had like a really crappy camera that actually gets crappy camera. But it looked fine, like there was some dead pixels, but it looked like it was very watchable and it wasn't distracting for Jay to sit through. But yeah, we made the movie for nothing. And a lot of it also was because, I mean, camera stuff is expensive. But if you have like our DP is it's like twenty eight year old girl with the Southern charm.


She's from Dallas. So we're both from Dallas. And we went up to the division and talked to this guy named Bob and just charmed his socks off and got really, really great deals for these, like, very expensive, very expensive equipment. But, yeah, it was really easy. To steal locations, we didn't have any permits and we didn't have a lot of stuff that we were lugging around, so the advancements are great.


And this is, by the way, this is a porn for shot, shot, shot and lived in fear every day that that people are just going to give up trying to make a movie like this. That's like his biggest fear in life other than the world then.


Yeah, that's a big part of what I like about it and part of why I think it's such a cool success story for you. But I mean, obviously, there are more and more people that are your age and younger that are not as interested in film making long term. They're interested in content, whatever that means. But the idea of making a movie isn't necessarily their aspiration. Was that what you had always wanted to do to be a filmmaker?


No, I never wanted to be a filmmaker ever. I wanted I acted in high school and I also started writing. And then my sophomore year of college, I realized I had a lot of things I had written and realized no one's going to read this because I had, like, no friend in the business. So I just realized in order, I think in order to be an actor, in order to be a writer, you have to do all everything you have to produce, direct, all all of that.


But I realized on set that directing is the thing that combines everything. But I think it's a crazy for people to be like, I want to be a director. It's like, fuck, you don't make any sense. But yeah, I, I think the reason why I think people do want to make movies, but I think people are paralyzed by the fact that they come from a place of I have to make a good movie, what's going to be good.


And that was never where I always came from. I really want there's this girl in my life. I our relationship is interesting and it says something and I'm trying to figure it out. And that's what I wanted to say something with the movie rather than like make a good movie that was going to be entertaining because that was not what this movie was ever really one of those that are good to that girl.


See this movie?


Oh, yeah, she's been yeah. She's in the next room right now. She and she helped me. She should have a writing credit on the script. She was.


Is that your lawyers would have advised you not to say that you're so young you don't know the business yet.


Right. You know, one of the things I worry about with your generation now, I'm the son, like the old guy. Here we go. It's so easy. To get acclaim, approval, whatever, from social media, right, like you, can you look at all the people who become influencers now take it. You can go on Tic-Tac and you could do some funny dance and then all of a sudden you have one hundred thousand people following you that the bar is both low to be seen.


But then the bar is so high in the sense that you can be replaced in five seconds, but that the part that worries me is to really do good work. You got to like do the work, you got to really give a shit about it. And one of the reasons I liked your story so much is you're just like, fuck it, I really want to make a movie. If I have to do all these different jobs, I'm going to do it.


And, you know, that's why I as one of the reason I want to have you on the podcast, I want your story to be a story that people look at and go, well, that fucking guy did it. I can do it because I do worry that that's going to get lost in this weird social media era we're in right now. Yeah, I'll be your post poster child for it.


I think also it's I'm not very good at doing things that can garner that immediate gratification. Like nothing that comes out of my brain will like entertain on the spot. I would never go viral. So I think I have always known that and I knew that. I think I probably could have gotten some scripts read, but I think I knew that no one was going to be interested in the scripts that I was writing because that's like, dude, don't waste my time.


Even now, with the success of the little success that shit houses, that I'm having all these meetings and they're like, what is your what ideas you have? And I'm like, you're my ideas. And that seems tiny like that. That's going to be really, really slow. I'm like, Yeah, did you watch Shit House? And so that's I'm never going to like I think a lot of people are getting really, really good at the kind of the Twitter comedy like that's like all of my friends are so, so funny.


And that's very specific way. And I'll never be funny in that way. Like, I think I always think, like, the funniest things have the most emotional content, and that doesn't read very well. So I think I sometimes wish I could be that person who gets viral.


Now, you're better off where you are. There's less there's less people in the pool you're swimming. I would say that's very true. Yeah, it's very it's for so long. Not for so long. I'm very young. It wasn't that long, but it was like so isolating. And there was so many times where I was like, I need to get on the train of figuring out how to be funny in that other way. But it's been so, so emotionally fulfilling that I that people are watching shit house and having some kind of reaction towards it.


Do you know what you're going to do now, like you're going into these meetings, you're talking to executives or people that that greenlight things? And are they like time for you to make the Green Lantern movie? Like, what is your.


How do you think you don't do that? No, no, no. And they're not. They know that I would not be good at that. But I I saw those things that I had written before I made that movie. I still have. And so I have so many things that are already written. And but now I'm I am working on like I found I took so many horrible meetings but had the two good meetings and am working on stuff that is in the same full of shit house.


Don't do the Ed Burns thing where you just remake the movie with a bigger budget better. Right. Right, right. No, no.


When he did, she's the one which by the way, actually she's the one 12 times. But but you know, it's not that bad, but it's basically the same movie as Brothers McMullen with a bigger budget.


No, this next shit shit house is very, very raw in a way that it won't be anything like shit house. But it isn't to say it's it's very spiritually aligned with your house and shares the same sensibilities. I was going to say the next movie should have been you should get with Blumhouse.


You do shit has to but like everybody gets murdered throughout, just kill all the characters.


So there's one left.


That's what a lot of people expect with this movie. They're very confused when they watch it.


Oh, they think somebody's going to die. No, they think some people think it's a horror movie. It sounds like a horror movie. In a way it is, though.


It is horrifying at times.


Is it risky to name your movie Shit House? Is it hard to get this movie in front of people because of that?


I've just realized this week, honestly, I see give me no trouble at all. Like, they didn't even we didn't even have a conversation about should we change it? They always like the title internationally. I have to change it, though. Just recently I found out I literally they are not letting me not change it.


So what do you want to change. Yeah. What are the titles. House of Excrement in German.


We were talking about it but they, they gave suggestions that I was like, I don't think they watch the movie.


Like I literally one of the they want to call it Green Lantern. Yeah. They have some Brown Lantern. Some of the titles they've offered are just remarkably not what the movie's about. Well, you got let's be honest. You got completely fucked with south by Southwest. I mean, no, on the scale of terrible things from the pandemic, it doesn't crack the top million, but it still sucks. Like you are going to have this triumph and victory lap playing it in in the same state that you made the movie.


And that would have been a really cool thing. And then now there's no festival.


You will South by Southwest is the first thing that got canceled. So it kind of became the face of like Korona devastated these people. And so I saw a minute after I canceled Eric Cohen of Indie Wire texted me and said, can we talk about how you're feeling? And I texted my publicist was like, are they going to throw me under the bus? And he's like, when South by Southwest just got canceled? No, they're going to look really good.


And so they did an article four hours later that said this kid missed out on this and this and this without having even seen the movie. So it it really worked out in our favor, I think, because people were so kind and really wrap their arms around all of those south by Southwest. Yeah, but you missed it.


Still could a premier movie Ovation? Oh, that's that. I mean, maybe you'll have that at some point in life, hopefully, if we ever can be at a movie theater together again in our lives.


But yeah. But yeah, that's that is a bummer that I felt bad for you in that.


Well, I think it would've been the if that was the right festival for your movie too. So many times people would have loved it there and that would've been exciting. But that's actually a good segue to what it means to be releasing a movie right now. Like, how do you feel about that? How do you like how do you want people to see it, given what's going on in the country?


Well, I wanted people to see it while I college experience in college, but then I kind of realize they don't even want to watch or whatever and in that way. But I really like the fact that I think a lot of people have a lot of time to meet a movie where it is. And Sickouts is a movie. You got to meet it where it is. It's like very comfortable not being seen. And so I think people also want a bit of a warm hug and some comfort and that that's this movie.


And also people are stuck in a house with, like one person right now or just like a couple of people. And that's all this movie is, is just like two people talking. And so I think it kind of lends itself to it's kind of a perfect moment for it to come out.


Well, shot in a weird way, this is kind of the ideal movie for the video on demand era we're in right now. Right.


Because in maybe this wouldn't have been a movie that took off in the theater. Either way, it was definitely one of those. Oh, what's this pay per view? Oh, and now you're just getting that right away. And I think there has been some success with that format already. Like we think the Apatow Pete Davidson movie did really well on that front. There's been some other ones, too, like there's that certain type, that movie that just kind of makes sense on a Thursday night in your house with whoever you're dating or you're with or you're by yourself or whatever.


So it could be an advantage. I think it'd be an interesting test case. Yeah, how closely are you going to follow stuff like that do care? Are you interested in that part of the work? Yes, I'll probably follow everything very closely, but I really I'm trying not to like I trying to drive to the beach or something, but I follow like I fucking read Letterbox and I shouldn't.


But I hellyeah. Well, Cooper, hell, I know. It's so it's so awful, but the I can't not read everything that's coming out. It's just.


Can I give you some advice. But you're not going to listen to me. I'm not but I just don't read all that shit. I don't want that shit to taint you. Just that's true. Keep your head where it is. Don't don't don't worry about, like, comments from people, because especially if the movie becomes successful or really well respected, then there's going to be a backlash to it and stay away from all that shit. Just make your next movie.


Don't worry about that stuff. Yeah.


The New York Times wrote a very generic right up about shit. I was there just like it's just people talking at college. I'm like, yes, it is. You're right. But then I mean about it, that was that was not a great review.


But that's something I wouldn't take that one seriously. I always ask filmmakers about that, though. When I talk to them, I'm always like, do you read reviews that affect you? Do you think about it? And half of them tell the truth. And they're like you. They're like, I don't want to, but I have to. And the other half just fucking lie and say that they don't. But everybody does because everyone reasonable to not be drawn into something like that.


But I guess is it weird for you? I mean, you know, we've pointed out that you're quite young relative to what you've accomplished already. But is it are you more comfortable getting feedback like that? You think that maybe some older peers might be like a place like letter?


Yes, I'm very impressionable right now, obviously. And I do. Yes. I'm like very aware of when I see something really shitty that hurts my feelings. I'm like, well, I'm only twenty three. Like, I can get better. But at the same time I also have a lot of confidence. But I, my initial reaction usually is like I'm learning so much about you right now, like I take that like defensive nature. But, but yeah.


The other thing is I really feel the need to tell people how much money it was made for, OK? I feel this desire to be like it's incredible. And so such a miracle that this movie is watchable. Like if you were on set and just saw the look in our gaffer's eyes, like he did not think this movie was going to get finished, let alone like be somewhat watchable. So for people, when we won South by Southwest, I felt this wall going up of like I don't want people to watch it with this lens of let's see what this winter is all about, because that's what this movie is.


It's like it's it's so I want people to know how wonderful it is that they can sit through it and, like, not hate it.


That's a key concept, though, the degree of difficulty thing. Right, because we had that with movies and music to to some degree. But we did I remember at Grantland, we did a whole oral history about swinger's.


And that's another movie that seems like this really well done, polished movie, and then when you read how they made it, they were cutting corners left and right. They weren't getting permits. They were borrowing buddies houses. There's one scene with Favrot. We just did a podcast about that movie where they're using he opens the refrigerator because the director needed the light from the refrigerator because they have light in the apartment. And it's like, I think that stuff matters.


If you can make a movie that stands with these big budget movies and you're doing it scrapping for every cent like, that's really impressive. I think so, too.


And I and I really want people to know, like I want I want I want some of the crew members to be interviewed. Like, what were you thinking on set? Because they were they like, I would I would go up to them and say, hey, we need because we're doing 12 hour days and we have money for overtime. But I had to ask we need to go 14 hours today. And they look at me, professional people who have been on so many sets and I'm like, fuck you, kid.


Like, this movie is not that movie. And yeah, it wasn't that movie. So like those days I was literally told. No, like we just didn't have it was just there were so many scenes that we just had to cut because we didn't even get like there was it was a shit show on set. And when I got in the editing room and saw that, I think it has that special quality. I was so excited. And then when we got in South by Southwest, it was like, I can't wait to have my little pocket and have that theater screening so I can and then meet all these other filmmakers.


But then when I won, obviously so grateful and so lucky and I'm so excited, but it feels isolating in that way because it's like it shouldn't be in that it shouldn't be in a place by itself. It should be like with everybody else. It is. But like it isn't. Yeah, that's a bummer. I think the movie doesn't totally work without Dylan either. Can you just talk about how she got involved in this very small movie and like, it really it needs both of you.


It needs the it needs the Hawke and the Delpy. I know you hate to hear that, but.


No, no, I know I don't hate to hear that. I'd love to hear that. But I. So, Dylan, we asked to hear a lot about the small roles and the younger sister of Maggie was a little bit of a bigger role in the movie, in the script. And so we ask Dylan to play that role just to come in for a day. And she said, yes, that because the person who was going to play Maggie is this girl named Abby Quinn, who plays the girl who's doing the bottle spin the bottle scene.


She was going to play Maggie and then she got a TV show and couldn't do it. And so I immediately was like, it needs to be Dylan because Dylan is Maggie on steroids. And that's what I that's the way I describe the little sister is like Maggie on steroids. So when I when she left, I was like, OK, I need to have that lunch with Dylan and ask her to do the main part. And when we had that lunch, I was really, really scared because we're so opposite in real life that I was I didn't know if it was going to work at all.


But then I realized that Madeleine, who the that character is based on, we when I first met her, I was terrified in the exact same way. So I was like, I think this is going to be magic. And I was right. But no, I but then I asked her to do it and she was like, I need to read the script again to make sure I can do Maggie Jessop's forever. And part of me was like, I don't know, maybe she didn't read the script.


Like she does better parts, but she she probably she's a virtuoso but then she read it and got back to me. It was like, I do want to do this. And she's amazing. She's got incredible instincts. She's super, super smart. And she's genuinely the funniest person that I've ever met.


Is she going to die at the beginning of shit? Has to win the Sirico or shows up or.


No, no. She's going to be already dead. And then there's going to be subtitles that explain her that she has to has to open with that big murder scene. That's the society to got to do those horror movies. So we get that right away, because Dylan would never do a show that she's like probably has too much the post-traumatic stress from that movie. Yeah, it was a nightmare. And she was so she was the leader on set because she was the one who was the most experienced and the conditions were so crappy.


But she was always so on it. And that was like she's amazing in the movie and was amazing on set and off.


So you want to act more than direct? Not now. Now I really want to direct because I feel good. Yeah. Don't lose the directing part. Yeah, I don't. Well acting I just didn't have the confidence as a director and the acting. I just really would love to be directed by a great director.


But Sean like like eight directors I like probably like twelve. I'm very picky now, are we are we are, we are. I was asked if there was one person that you could get to see this film, one filmmaker, who would that person be?


That's a really great question. I would say like jaded flaws. And he saw it. I don't know. That's a really great Linklater. Sure, I did. I really want to I really want Sofia Coppola to see it, because that's a good one. I stole everything she'll see, like I stole so many things from Lost in translation. And so I think the way that all of her little lines say something about those themes in that movie and like all those little visuals, like I really try to do that with Chanels and her, like very specific sense of humor is like the way it's played so straight.


I think that's why I try to do with shit else. And so I really hope she likes it.


First of all, don't feel guilty about that because all new directors steal from the better directors before them know. And the same thing is for writers like I stole my writing style from seven different people. I just packed seven people together and created a style.


So I stole my podcasting style from Bill. So here we did you.


No, it's not. That's how I feel. I feel like so excited. Should be like, oh, that's so sweet. And then she would have me direct the next movie that she does.


But you're not going to be surprised. I love that movie too. And I do feel like those movies aren't happening as much. And I know Sean and I, we've known each other for a while. We worry about this constantly, like, you know, a lot of the re watchable ones that we do or from the nineties and just this era that we revere where from like ninety four to ninety nine. It was just such a creatively vibrant, awesome time to love movies.


And every week there's something new coming out and right around like, oh, three or four, all of a sudden the superhero showed up and the sequels, the sequel train showed up and you know, the money just wasn't in kind of rolling the dice with some of these smaller indie movies built around somebody's voice. And then all of that shifted. The TV was the other piece, you know, and I'm sure like you're getting that now or what if you created a TV series so people don't want you to make a movie, they want you to make like a seven season television show?


Yeah, I, I also I shouldn't say that's it's so funny. The like the Entourage guys were like. Should House needs to be a TV show that was like, oh, watch it first, you have to watch it first.


But yeah, that's that's that's the whole thing that's happened to where I've had to. So the thing is, though, I love TV, I just think that I love TV. I hate every TV show because no TV show realizes that it's just about the characters, like the shows that you do fall in love with. You should probably fall in love with them a little bit more because they just no one takes advantage of the fact that you get to see these characters for so long if you want to.


So why aren't you just leading with characters? But no show does that because it's almost even more so with TV shows than movies like we've got to get the best five minutes in that pilot, like the first five minutes has to be so good and that's all they care about.


And well, that's why some of the shows like Ozark and the ones that figure out that motto of a really compelling story. But then you're also really into the characters. Those are the ones that kick ass like that family is fucking.


Yeah. You just love that family so much. Yeah.


Do you do you think you're going to have to stay independent in terms of doing what you want to do or like what do you have a feeling about whether you need to team up with a bigger apparatus to do what you want to do in the future?


Yeah, I really want money, like I really want money to feel supported. So I.


I want you asking Bill for money now. No, let me send you a check. No, people know. The thing is, people, people like people do have money and like smaller things.


It's just having to really argue that it has to be a little bit under because I don't know, as soon as they give more money, they give more notes. And that's like just saying under that is really easy because. Like, you don't need that much money and you can make us so we made so much money with shows, so much money and like being able to tell people that is really they know that. And so there is a path for studios to give only a little bit of money.


I think that's this is one of my big Montreaux bet on yourself, the title of my book that I'm never going to write. I've just been done on your bill.


So that's what that's what I call shit house internationally. Is that on yourself? Better on yourself. You got to do it. Listen, stay away from cocaine.


Stay away from Twitter and Instagram replies cocaine and reply's. Those are the two things you'd stay away from and let them just do your thing and letterbox all that shit. But just do your thing. Make your next movie. Don't give a shit what other people say, just that people like us like that. That's all that matters. Forget the replies. Yes, you're fine.


Thank you guys so much. Really means a lot.


Listen, we're on the front row the bandwagon, so no matter what happens, you don't like don't like big time later when you're when you're like a famous famous director. Yeah, I got those guys had me on their podcast, you know, I was wearing a sweatshirt. I had a girl in the next room. I had no background. And now I've won five Oscars. Yeah.


When you're doing the Green Lantern three junket, I'm getting more than ten minutes. OK, we're just going to keep that in mind.


And it don't come like Steve. He's Sean. You did a part of the. But yeah. Congratulations. I'm really I'm really sad for you. And and I just think it's cool that your whole story and congratulations. Thank you so much.


I really, really, really appreciate it so much.


All right. Thanks so much to Russell Wilson.


Thanks to Cooper, Rafe, and thanks to Fantasy for popping. I hopefully would do well in the million dollar pics. We'll be back on Sunday night being the cause and see that.