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Hey, everybody. Today we are joined by Pastor Jack Hibbs and Pastor Rob McCoy, two amazing pastors that love our country, love the kingdom of God, and are obviously under huge attack right now. And persecution. You can email me Freedom at Charlie Kirkham, all your questions. Thank you for supporting our program to be advertiser free on the weekend at Charlie Cook Dotcom slash support. But just as I am doing this podcast, both of these pastors are being threatened with arrest and their entire church being shutting down because they're staying wide open.


Email us freedom at Charlie Cook, dotcom freedom at Charlie Cook, dotcom. Buckle up, Jakobs. Rob McCoy, our here. Here we go.


Charlie, what you've done is incredible here. Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus. I want you to know we are lucky to have Charlie Charlie Cook's run in the White House. But I want to thank Charlie is an incredible guy, his spirit, his love of this country. He's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created, Turning Point USA. We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country.


That's why we are here.


Hey, everybody, welcome to this special episode of The Charlie Cook Show.


This is a duo, a combo that is legendary homeboy, Pastor Rob McCoy, Pastor Jack Hibbs, two heroes of mine, Heroes for Our Country, Heroes in California. I got to know both of you before all this nonsense in our country started. Yeah, and these two men have their churches totally open fighting city government. Rob, you never closed. Well, we did for. Yeah. A week.


That's and Pastor Jack, you did a small interval and you guys both opened. And I had to apologize to the church for even doing that. I felt better, too. And now you guys remain open and defiant against Governor Newsome. Yeah. And how are your churches doing sort of Iraq? Well, I would say especially, Jack, probably in the same boat that when we were close, we didn't know the severity of that covid-19 at the time.


We were still processing the data, at least for us. As soon as we saw that this was a scam.


DIMMICK we opened and the nonessential designation by our governor, that was it. I mean, you make cannabis essential and you make bicycle repair shops and liquor stores essential and then violate our First Amendment at that. Yeah. So we're doing great.


Our church is behind. It's through the roof. Bigger than ever, bigger than ever. Tripled to, say, 14000 people last Sunday. So and you probably had a 200 percent increase, right? Well, yeah, we're one tenth of his church.


So you had 14000? We had fourteen hundred. Listen, it's the amount of conversions people come for comfort. People, people walking in the front door starting to cry because they said it was precious. We're home. And these are people that some of them have never even been here before. And they're saying we're home because we sense God. One woman said it so perfectly. She is a nurse. Her husband is an LAPD. And she said she was very emotional.


And she said, I said, Are you OK? She goes, I'm more than OK. She said, because this is the first. First taste of normal that we've had in months, and it does my soul in my mind, good. And then so, yeah, there are pastors that are remaining closed.


And they are committed to it and they're saying this is dividing the body, what do you have to say about that, Jack?


First, I want to I'm I want to cut those guys a big slice of grace by saying this. Whoever those pastors are, it is possible that they are an elder run church. Maybe the pastor doesn't have any say that's true. It's possible or are they are the head pastor and and they are using things like we can't open up because somebody could get sick. I would say someone is going to get sick if it's cancer, if it's stroke. Listen, we're not going to prevent anything in the sense of people getting sick.


People get sick every day. All of a sudden nobody can get sick and nobody can die. We don't want to do anything to harm people. My argument is this. On the pastor of this church, I know how to love our people more than the governor knows how to love our people. I want their welfare better than he does. The problem with his argument is there's no science to his argument.


It's changing by the day. And yet we've been meeting for, what, ten weeks, 11 weeks, and it's just continuing to grow. And we've had no reports of sickness. We ask people to stay home if they're sick, if there's if we say if you're sick, don't come. Right. But we've given every opportunity. Charlie, you know, you've walked around the campus for people to experience church and all kinds of ways. I know this.


I've spoke at both your churches now multiple times. And thank you. You guys are the few pastors in the country that dare to associate yourself with me. So thank God it's true. A lot of pastors, they just don't know you yet. So I run for the hills.


They don't rob you offer radio if people want to sit in the parking lot, livestream if they can. If they want to be, I think you have a forum where they can be socially distance or they can stay at home. Obviously, Jack, you have a feel that they want to be socially distanced outside Jumbotron right field. So if they want the normal, they can do the normal. If they want to stay at home, they can do that if they want to be in the parking lot.


So there's almost like a menu of options. Absolutely the same with you, right? It's called freedom. It's called freedom. And what I find so in my own opinion, frustrating and repulsive on how some of these pastors have handled this, Rob, is these pastors are treating their congregants like infants. Oh, yes. Well said. And saying we know what's best for you. We are going to shut it all down because you don't know how to make informed choices.


What's been your experience of staying open?


I think with the pastors that are closed and I'm going to take I'm going to take the direction that Jack has because I love Hope's all things. And I would think, especially for some of these pastors, whatever information they're getting that's causing them to make, the decision they're making is not correct. When when we've had doctors on our live stream, we've had psychologists on our live stream, when we've looked at the data.


And and what's interesting is anything that's contrary to the narrative set by the governor is immediately censored. And they say, you know, all medical professionals are in agreement. Well, those are the medical professionals that you allow on on on social media.


And then you censor the ones that have a contract. But you look at the data and this thing has a ninety nine percent survival rate with anyone who has contracted it. Right. And so we know that. We know of them and it's actually higher.


But just because cases are going up, hospitalizations and deaths are going down, this this is not worthy. And you don't quarantine the healthy first time in American history in American history. So when they tell us that we're not essential, this is an ideological battle and pastors have to awaken that to that. And I don't think they know that. Charlie, I really just want to believe that love hopes all things. They just don't know it and they need to awaken to it and and they need to step up.


Yeah, absolutely true. The Charlie and I talked earlier just in our in our conversations of life beforehand and things where it makes people feel comfortable to say politicians to say this is essential, this is non-essential. Of course, you said it in California, you can't have church and you can't sing out loud. You can't pray out loud. But you can go down the street, have an abortion, but you can burn buildings in March and be, you know, well, and I pray.




And I think here's the broader question. You know, we've said church is essential. I mean, is salvation essential?


Well, that's why the church is not the church is an essential and it's not non essential. The church is transcendent and can't even be put in this category. And of that, and I would add Jack is not being rebellious and neither am I. We are being obedient. That's right. We are commanded to not forsake fellowshipping with the same. We we are commanded to our scholarship. But no, Rob, you you are a bad guy because you didn't obey Romans 13.


You see, that's a good one.


I love that you brought that up. That's why I brought you to that one. You teed it up.


Yeah. OK, let's look at Romans 13. The Oracle speaks know that you're to obey all positions of authority.


They're appointed by God. Full agreement to that. I agree. Absolutely.


And that that they're ministers of of justice to execute rather than those who do evil to carry the sword. So they've got authority and I get that. But they're there for our good. And let's not forget this. The beauty of America, 244 years under this constitution, the authority in America is found in the first three words of the preamble. We the people where the authority, they govern by our consent and they're constrained by the seven articles of that constitution.


And when they don't abide by that, it is our right and our duty to push back right now.


Rob. Jack, so I am obeying Romans 13. Some say so were you some pastors say we never should have dissolved from King George in the first place.


Oh, yeah. Well, then go to England. Seriously go to England.


But even those pastors that are doing that are now standing well in order to be philosophically consistent, they should go to Rome because the the people from the northern part of England should never have pushed back against Roman aggression.


But here's when in an age in which we're in right now, OK, we we're all Bible students are studying the Bible. We see what's happening in our day.


When would be what would be the event that causes a pastor to throw off the yoke of of political encroachment and say, now that's the hell I'm going to stand on.


So if you can't stand for this little bump in the road, you know, Charlie Jack, I was just going to say that's the best point. He's every pastor should have to answer. What is your line then? Right. So, I mean, if it's not now, then give us a set of circumstances. Be very specific of what your line is. I have one question for pastors who would state something like that. Should Rosa Parks have gotten to the back of the bus?


Wow. Was was Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King wrong in in in fighting for civil rights? Was the abolition of slavery and pushing I mean. Yeah.


Or continuing Timboon and to protect Frederick Douglass. Yeah. Yeah. Or then. Hey then what about Rahab protecting the two spies. Yeah.


You can't use it. It just doesn't work that way. That's convenient to stay within the realm. And I understand that there's the body of Christ influences government, but we're not dominionism. It's not a theocracy. Goodness no.


And we've been coming still. So that means a lot of listeners. I've never heard this. OK, dominionism in particular.


For example, I've been a you know, people make comments that you use the Seven Mountains of cultural influence. And and I pointed out to the folks who had said that that you would comment and I said, I'm the one who fed him, that he's not a dominionist. Speaking of you, Charlie, when when I comment on the seven mountains of cultural influence, I'm using it from a psychological perspective.


Is Dominion a dominionist? Is this idea that we are ushering in God's kingdom on the earth? And there's a lot of people that hold that.


And they we do not. We do not. Why do we not hold that view? The reason why we don't and you don't? Because I've had that conversation when the reason why we don't hold to that view is because we're a pluralistic society.


And in this nation of a constitutional republic, especially with Galatians three, it says that the law is a guardian to point us to Christ and say, yeah, schoolmaster until faith comes. In the meantime, we build these we build these laws, the civil laws to protect mankind because it's the laws of nature, nature's God. But there isn't this one theocracy where we have people have to come to this realization, this choice. Yep. Listen, patriotism is something that I could argue is found in the scripture.


Dominionism is patriotism on steroids. It's illogical. It's where we're going to make a either a church or or a nation ripe and ready and so good that then Jesus can come back when we make it good, when in reality is that a good church is the salt and light of a decaying culture. We know from scripture everything is going to decay. But does that mean we quit? No, because there are events in culture like America, like the founding of the United States, or for that matter, the the holding back of God's judgment promised against Ananova.


Why didn't God just smack him down? Like he said through Jonah, they repented. And so God reserves the right to pull back. And he did that with none of forty years later, judgment came. What we do is we are taking the word of God looking for Jesus any day. But until he comes, we're going to occupy till he comes, says the Bible. And. Christ brings the kingdom, we don't create it and then make it where it's a happy world for him to arrive, and faith comes from hearing and hearing from the word of God.


So our primary calling people think that we're all about politics.


But for Jaconi, our primary calling is rightly dividing us. I said that Nicotero. Yeah. Yeah, you did.


We always teach the Bible verse by virtue of a chapter book. But this is what Charlie said in the car. If we listen, if we pastors do not understand the workings and the politics of the nation that he has placed us in, then we are ripe to lose the freedoms to preach the gospel. A perfect example that black lives matter. They have Zeil. Nobody wants racism. Nobody wants prejudice in their church. We endeavor to keep the spirit in the bond of peace if anyone is being abused because of the content of the melanin of their skin.


And that exists. We want that ended. That's right. That's wrong. But but to think that you're somehow contributing to the end of that prejudice and that racism by a black tile or sending money into Black Lives Matter, Zeil without knowledge is foolishness. You need to study to realize Black Lives Matter is a Marxist organization.


It's Black Lives Matter, Inc. and we call it BLM because we never want to say something negative about a statement that is offensive.


Yeah, we we I'm very I go out of my way. The BLM and by the way, ever since we set it, their favorability has gone down 20 points finish up.


Yet we believe black lives matter. All black do matter. And as a matter of fact, you take the the black American population at 13 percent. Divide that in half, male and female, six and a half percent take it down to childbearing years on the four for black females, that's conservatively four percent. Four percent of the population is responsible for 40 percent of the abortions. Yet Planned Parenthood supports BLM Inc and BLM Inc supports Planned Parenthood.


And it's a holocaust on the black community. There needs to be outrage. And the pastors that are putting up those black tiles thinking that they're you staging their guilt, they need to stand in opposition to abortion.


Rob, I said something to the same effect a couple of weeks ago. I went out into the courtyard to greet people after service and there was a beeline. Yeah. Of black individuals coming to me, hugging me, kissing me. No social distancing at all. No. To say to me, thank you for what you said today about BLM Inc., because they have pimped listen, they have pimped my ethnicity and they are destroying my culture. You know, they're qualified to say that.


To be honest with you, I have zero respect for a white guy telling me about BLM Inc. or True Black Lives Matter, but they're not talking about the real truth about Black Lives Matter.


They want to talk about BLM Inc. and they're completely not qualified to talk about it.


And that's where that's where we as pastors, we can have Zeil. But without knowledge, it's foolishness. We've got to study to know these things in the scriptures. Whatever things are true, we all on just about the gospel. I just preach the word. You need to know the culture around you. You need to understand these things.


I could argue, Rob, that just preaching the gospel is not enough because you need to endorse your people after you have preach the gospel to now go do the gospel.


It's not good to be a student and to hear only. I think the Bible has something to say about that. I'm going to I'm going to jump on that one. So I get this all the time.


I know you do, too, that we're I, I don't I don't do politics is I'm all about the gospel as though somehow you and I are.


You're not. And when we say the gospel, if I were to boil it down and ask them that, they would they would quote effusions to you, saved by grace, through faith.


It's a gift of God, not of works. So art, any man should boast. And then it goes. If you believe in your heart, confess with your tongue. Jesus is Lord. You will be saved the glory of the father. If that's you, raise your hand. God bless you as you can. And you, Professor. Oh, God bless you. See your hand. And we do that.


We throw the net out. Hey, amen. OK, I'm missing some elements that I would preach but. But I do. You got but were there. I'm limited on time. Works in the same book. Yeah.


Yeah. And we recognize that we're sinners and we need to be so we're saved by grace our faith and we respond to that. OK, salvation by grace didn't happen in Ephesians two. It's back in Genesis fifteen where Abraham really God. It was a credit to him as righteousness. So we've got it in both places. So the question is, why did God give the law four hundred and thirty years later? That's right, because three to five million Jews were in slavery.


Liberty is not man's idea. It's God's eyes. They cried out to God, he said, to deliver ten plagues, red seas parted their food, provided every day water. Their clothes don't wear out. Moses goes up on Mt.. Sinai, gets a downloaded more lap five commandments relationship. God, five commandments. Relationship with each other comes down. The entire community is in debauchery. He puts the moral law in the center of the community and for.


Forty years they live without a police force or a standing army. That is why God brought the law. And then Paul pointed out in Galatians three and then in five and we stand facer for the liberty for which crisis's free the gospel. The Lord says not to make converts, but disciples make disciples and disciples change the world. But you just Charlie, this is your show, right? Because I just work here.


This is the this Rob hit the nail on the head regarding what his church these days, just because we lead somebody to Christ doesn't mean that we're making any headway because No. One, we could bring a baby into the world and not feed the baby and starve the baby. Salvation is one step. It's the first step to the discipleship process, which is the rest of your life. You're saved in an instant, but the rest of your life you walk.


And let me tell you what what ends up happening. I grew up in suburbs of Chicago, went to some of the largest churches on the planet, went to a Christian school fourth, fifth and sixth grade, then went to a public school. And so I'm very familiar with cattle call. Christianity is what I kind of call it, where they do the cattle call a couple of weeks come forward almost when it's happening. And I've tracked these people throughout the years.


Some of them I know that went and did that is that there is a questioning process that happens and sets in about four to six weeks after the cattle call conversion rates. They come, they do the thing on Easter or Christmas or whenever they do the big deal, they all of a sudden start listening to K Love. They get really excited. They read the Bible in the morning. They tell their friends about it. Right. They start when Christian t shirts and then something happens.


A friend interaction, something less than desirable suffering comes across or inevitably a societal question comes across their radar, which which is the one that is probably they go to college. Would they go to college or whatever it might be is all the above.


But it might not even be a young person. It could be some in their 50s or 60s. And they go seek out their pastor and they go to the pastor and they say, hey, look, pal, high school in suburbs of Chicago, this is a true story. There's a there's a boy who thinks he's a girl and he's suing to be able to go into the girls locker room.


And I did all cattle call like I love Christ. Now I listen to love and I know I know all the lyrics like all of them. You know the goodness of God and everything. Right. Is it OK if the boy goes into the girls locker room? Because is that Christ like because I want to be loving and forgiving real questions, by the way, legitimate questions. And you know what the pastor said in my local church, we don't get involved in stuff like that.


Let's pray on it. That's OK. And so but here's and up happening, though, is that person that's asking the questions. OK, all right. Then they go back and they kind of think about and they pray about it within months. They'll disconnect. That's right. They will, because all of a sudden the tough things of which church in the Bible are supposed to be able to answer, they have no interest in engaging in that.


It's the opposite of Galatians three. So Galatians three is a truth. But the inverse is also true where it's it was a school teacher to Christ. But the lack of any sort of interpretation of things that makes sense in a very chaotic world, people will disengage from Christ. So it's also I think it can retract you away from Christ.


You're not nonwage. I believe what you just said is true. But we've got Peter telling us that we should be able to give an answer to every man, every man. So now I may be wrong about what I'm about to say, but don't don't correct me because I believe it, OK?


If the Bible says that we ought to be able to give secular progress, it's not like my truth and sort of post-modernist French garbage. Exactly.


So watch this. All right. If the Bible says that we should be able to give an answer to every man who asks if we believe that this doctrine of predestination is based upon God's foreknowledge, then God can't learn anything. Nothing's going to happen without his knowledge. Having said that, I believe from scripture that what you just said is so true. We're the ones that are to give the answers to people. If we don't know the answer, we should find it, because God's provided the answer.


I believe in some some way that this is kind of rigged.


I don't mean I don't mean in the sense of of a negative way. But if somebody calls and ask a question.


Yeah. And I don't know the answer bad on me because the Bible has the answer. Well, especially every issue of life the Bible has, and especially that makes sense, especially in the one piece of life that I completely agree with all that, the one piece of light that could be very turbulent, very uncomfortable, very heated, very emotive, sometimes pathological is politics and governance. It's understandable because you everyone thinks they're right and everyone thinks that they want to go to the right direction.


And so the church has disengaged because like, well, that's too controversial. We never made sense to me because I went to some of these megachurches growing up and they would have this fire and brimstone speech about how health is a real place and people are screaming and dying. And that's really intense.


But you talk about yeah, you wonder if I want abortion. Do they really believe you or. Unafraid to tell people that I'm burn forever, but they're perfectly hollow. One final point on this, though, is that people want clarity in all things, and Christ brings forth clarity because truth brings clarity, truth in your direction, truth in your choices. And a confused society is one that will not embrace Christ confusion as a tool of Satan. It's one of his most effective tools is confusion, gender confusion, societal confusion, cultural confusion.


He wrote the book. Right. Historical confusion. Right. But Christ is clarity because Christ is truth. Christ is love. The point is that when people do not have clarity on something that affects them materially, sociologically, psychologically and philosophically, and we are told that's a no go zone, they're like, wait a second. But I don't get it.


There's all these yard signs in my in my neighborhood trying to tell me the church doesn't have anything to say about this. Like, well, you're right. You're trying to tell me that I have no clarity when it comes to why my property tax bill keeps on going up every single year. So I have to sacrifice my time. My daughter has to shower with a man. And you're trying to tell me that the church has no clarity on this.


It didn't tell Rob McCoy that the the pillar in the ground of all truth is found. Where? In the church. The church.


I am going to I'm going to use this that, you know, we're both Calvary Chapel pastors. Calvary Chapel, depending on whose history you read, started in 1968. Chuck breaks away from the Four-Square Church, 1968, California Ragan's governor.


We had the fifth largest GDP on the face of the Earth. It's the state of the future. Air Force is setting up here. It's a space program. I mean, it's unbelievable. It's been invented.


You and I were born here. My my father, my grandfather, military. It's it's the state Chuck comes in in 68. Now, what happened? 68. Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was shot. Bobby Kennedy was shot. John F Kennedy was shot in sixty three. We would have the My Lai massacre the following year. We'd have the Kent State shootings. We have Marxism infiltrating the nation. There is political turmoil. All of the people these young people had put their hopes and dreams on have been assassinated.


And the nation's in a meltdown. And my father had three tours of Vietnam. I remember him coming through Lindbergh Field, getting spit on. I remember being at the Washington Monument. It's you're throwing stuff at us with all the hippie movement. And Chuck comes out in 68 and he sees all these disenfranchised young people as a church is imploding. People are checking into Western religions and trying to find themselves with drugs and everything. And so in the course of this, Chuck figures, I'm just going to avoid politics.


I'm just going to teach the Bible verse by verse, chapter by chapter, book by book, because faith comes from hearing hearing from the word of God and his word doesn't return void.


A good approach at that. And at that time it makes I totally, totally get it. And none of those none of those hippies would have come in had it been political. And he gives them a systematic study of the scriptures, 66 books. And by the time he left this earth, you talk through the entirety of the Bible, many, many, many, many, many, many times from that simple approach.


Calvary Chapel experiences 10000 percent growth south of Ani's, which is just about where I am, south of Ionizers 350 Calvary Chapels. It's it's Calvary Chapel Sandbox. And and there's 1800 plus or minus around the world. We've got the Harvest Crusades with Greg Laurie before he decided to leave the Calvary, but still affiliated. We've had Somebody Loves You with Greg. Are we with RORRIS evangelism?


Right. We're preaching pre millennial. The house is on fire. We're going to get the kids out and they're coming to Christ in droves.


But Chuck avoids politics and all of us.


Do you and I know. But everyone else. Memmo, but but here we are, what? Fifty, fifty two years into this movement. And how is how is the 10000 percent conversion and that's that's conversion growth, not transfer growth. How is that 10000 percent growth affected the state? We're no longer the fifth largest GDP. We're the sixth we have the highest gas tax, sales tax, income tax, corporate tax. We lead the nation in poverty, homelessness where the pornography, filming capital, filming capital of the world.


Here's here's the kicker. Authors of no fault divorce, transgender bathroom bills. And the biggest of all, we've aborted more children in the state of California than the entire population of Canada. Where's the power? The gospel? That's right.


We don't we don't do politics. No, we don't do politics. But people died at home.


But but Aristotle said the highest form of community is politics because it's morality and sociability. And God pointed out in the new covenant, how do we get along?


Well, and the Bible speaks to everything. Rob, what you just said, we know this, it's fundamental that Sunday school stuff let your light this little light of mine. I'm going to let it shine. Oh, no, no, no, you're not. You're only going to shine it on Sunday and you might shine it on midweek service, but you don't shine it on Monday. You don't shine it at work.


And that's the problem. Where did Jesus say, excuse me, don't shine your light over there? No, it's everywhere.


And we have dropped the ball on everywhere, shining the light.


And then Jesus says in the Sermon on the Mount that you're the salt of the earth. If salt loses its flavor, it's thrown out, trampled underfoot. Good for nothing. Any Roman soldier hearing the Sermon on the Mount, which we get the word salary.


S So you're worth your weight in salt they knew was a currency.


Good. If you don't know the currency in each of these areas, you're going to be trampled underfoot as a pastor.


The currency for us in in the mountain of religion is or the salary of the currency is truth. That's right. In politics, which pastors don't understand. But I do because I've run four times in one three races on batton 750 I can make in the major leagues.


The currency in politics is one thing.


Winning elections. You don't move the needle without winning an election. And if you look at me and say, I can't vote for someone three times married, twice divorced, that's moral patriotism.


Right. And I look at you and I say, fine, but you're irrelevant to me as a politician. You're irrelevant. We're not voting for a pastor in chief, but commander in chief. Well, I can't vote for that immoral man. And I say, OK, then take Samson out of the Hall of Faith or David. Yeah, I can't.


Well, I would say same, so I can't teach him in Sunday school. I can't find anything really moral about Samson. He's a prostitute, spent all night in the spirit. Lord comes upon him. Let's like mind blowing.


First words out of his mouth was Find me. That woman is with a man's right now home schooled and one of only two, only one of two unborn children prophesied to deliver God's people Jesus in the arms.


And Samson, we were sorry. We fail to communicate to Christians that we're not voting for a president. I think that's very deceiving way to look at it instead, because the president feels very autocratic, right? We're voting for a government. We're voting for a movement.


We're voting for a philosophy, an ideology, an ideology, especially now more so than ever. It matters far less about the human being that occupies it and much more about the millions of micro decisions that go into either stabilizing or deconstructing an entire civilization. And so and I think this is President Trump's pathway to victory is actually articulating this is that he is nothing more than a vessel for people centered government at that. You know, you might not like my tweets.


You might not like all this stuff. We'll get over that, OK? Because I'm a bodyguard for civil society, and in order for them to get to me, I'm going to guard the door on the bouncer, if you will. I'm going to spit and I'm going to say things I shouldn't say. But I am the size of a doorframe and I can fight and they don't want to come after me. And I'm going to keep you safe and stable and protect what is righteous and good.


I think that's a much better way to communicate it because some people say, I don't like you. Well, first off, I say I for one, I really, really don't like the the moral kind of judging game from Christians.


I talked about this, and I think it's the worst extrapolation of kind of the parts of Calvinism, to be honest with you. We're like, I'm elected. You're not elect them. I'm so much better than you are. It's I think the misapplication. I'm just I grew up around those circles. I did. And it drives me.


That's one of the broadcasts. I know what it's about. Come back. Come back. I got it. But I'm saying that there's there's a there's a point to how we communicate.


Yeah, well, here's the thing, too, is so what for the Christian who doesn't engage the culture and vote and get involved, what's it going to take to get them engaged? Is it when their child is messed up by the strip joint, the the pornography star down the street? Is that what makes them what will wake them up where they they put things in compartments?


I'm not going to get involved in that. And I want to I honestly want to know why do you think that's a good idea? Well, I just wonder, is it because you might get dirty, you might get tainted? Is Christianity so fragile that it can no longer engage the world around it? Is it so that week? Look, maybe for some churches it has been communicated that, yes, in fact, it is that weak. It if you're a pastor and and you've got to do, you know, book report once a week and the only thing you have to do is throw the net out to have people raise your hand.


That's a lot easier than having to soil yourself by getting involved in the school board and the city council, even though the scripture says pray for kings and those in authority, that we would live quiet and peaceable lives and godliness and reverence. And you ask those pastors and that's a pastoral. So you ask him, can you name your five school board members in your five city council members that you pray for by name and the issues are dealing with it, allow your community, your followers to live quiet and peaceful lives and godliness and reverence.


They don't have they don't know the names, but it's too hard to get involved.


And it's a lot easier just to collect the tithe and have people raise their hand and then feel good that you've been forgiven of your sins. Cast as far as East is from the West, remember, no more, which is precious.


But, you know, you were saying these children are being birthed but not raised. And when an evangelist comes into town and you were talking about the the ROIC, the return on investment, you put on this enormous program, outreach, evangelistic program in the stadium, people come forward and you follow up after a year, a very small percentage of them. And I've done this on many occasions in our church. I say, how many of you came to Christ in in in a crusade outreach type of event?


A handful. Raise your hand. How many of you came to Christ because someone personally shared with you and walked you through it and the enormity of the room that raises your hand. That's not to dismiss what folks do that are evangelists. No, of course not. Well, Rob, this is true in my film. I'm going to get in trouble for that, Charlie, and for my family. The greatest evangelist has been cancer in my family, not again of evangelism.


We're commanded to do it. And it's one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit not taking anything away from that. But what we need to realize also is God uses so many different things. And the bottom line is that a lot of people come to Christ. You talk about those who raise their hands and those you talk to. The people I talk to by far have come to Christ because of crises. There was some crisis of faith in their life.


Either they didn't have any or they needed some. And they they came searching. I got to ask you this, because you're fourteen thousand weren't fourteen hundred.


And this is and it's going to equate on both ends crisis. You know who's coming to my church now? People who would never darken the door to church because they're watching their country implode in they're in crisis and they have lost their liberty and they want to know its source and they want to know what to do.


That's right. That's evangelism.


That's absolutely right on.


And we have answers and hope to prove that is that we've needed a bigger net on Sundays because of that truth. Yeah. And by the way, the people coming forward, I could not engineer this. We're in a church. If you could have the perfect world where this so many of this ethnic group come forward, old and young and this ethnic group, old and young and this old and young and poor and rich across the board.


Exactly. You could have an ask for this. And that's exactly what's happening.


You. Yeah, perfect mix. Why? Because God is moving. It's an awakening cross. It is awakened. And the tragedy is some of our pastors think if they if they are remain silent, they think that they're going to offend someone. And Jesus said, I didn't come to bring peace, but a sword were to contend against against this evil that is enslaving our people. It's still true, Rob. He said that those when it comes to accepting Christ and then walking on with Christ, Jesus said.


That there will be mother against daughter and father against son because of that very reason, because one wants truth, one does it, and so you have that reality, but you're exactly correct. We're watching people come there in the midst of a crisis. And I do believe if pastors would open up.


The fishing is fantastic. The weather is amazing. So, Jack, are you nuts? It's in the middle of covid. You know, it's never been a better time in 30 years of ministry. Why? We're open.


You know who the greatest evangelists are for liberty that are now darkening the doors of the church there. There would be considered left of center there, skaters and surfers, because their beaches have been closed and their skate parks even filled with sand. And they're like, wait a minute, what? And once I was able to do this, now I can't. And that guy's telling me why. And I haven't I don't know. A single person has contracted covid or died of it.


And my entire my entire joy has been taken.


And now they're coming and going, what do we do? And some of the greatest proponents for this movement contending with the governor are these business owners that started coming to the church. And they're saying with these open California rallies that they've asked me to come and speak out. They say we will be in prayer and they ask you to give an entire opening teaching on what liberty is from the scriptures. And they're hungry. They welcome you.


I don't even have to ask. I don't remember when it was maybe you do because you're younger and you have a memory. But at some point in time, I had to ask Charlie, hey, we need to really do something in California. We can do this. We can shake it up. And I think people like Candace Owen and others, Prager's and he said they would imagine if we just popped up somewhere, people are dying for direction and someone is going to get to them.


It's either going to be the agenda of Hollywood or it's going to be Newsom's team. Someone's going to get them and we need to get them.


I do believe California is redeemable because I'm still breathing.


One of the things the church has gotten so incredibly wrong and I think misstepped is I was told that politics will drive people away from the church. And what I found with our podcast and through turning point and what we're doing is we talk about a moral worldview. We have organized thinking, we've answers to complex problems, and people want to know the source. And we're actually bringing people to the Galatians three model that we talk about. And everyone has a different way of coming to Christ.


But there are actually millions and millions and millions of people out there that look at a chaotic world and a broken world. Then you might say something that makes a lot of sense, governmentally or philosophically. And they say, well, you seem like you got your act together. What else do you believe or what does that come from? And the church is missing. One of the greatest evangelistic opportunities out there right now are probably 15 to 20 million Americans that would be saved by Christ if the church talked about politics.


Exactly. So there are 15 to 20 million souls that may or may not come to Christ right now in America because the way they were raised and the culture there in just the typical evangelistic music, big lights, all that, it doesn't there everyone is made different by God. Everyone has different interests in life. There are people out there. I communicate with them. They consider themselves to be hyper rational. Right.


They can I only I only believe in things that work and the apologetics movement. Lee Strobel has done great work with them. But but however, there's also people that are they look a lot more in day to day life. Show me something that works for me, something that I can actually make sense with in my own life. And when I go to a college campus, I said, well, there's only two genders. That's right. And some people and they all mind and all that.


And some people love it. And some people say, wow, I guess you're right. I've never heard that so deep. I know exactly right. Where did you come up with that? Two genders. I never thought of it.


And the enemy wants to keep it in the four walls of the church. They don't want us to have an influence in the universities and to the point where we just allow them to push and whittle it down until we're just here and and we're arguing over an ever decreasing piece of the pie. And God says, no, get out there if content for truth.


If you were Satan himself and you looked at the landscape of this world. What threatens you if you're Satan, is it politics? I think Satan's pretty terrified of politics falling into the wrong hands. The good hands.


Is it is it media? He's got that. The trees not threatened by the church and the church used to be a terrorizing force of the kingdom of hell, the church used to cause hell to tremble when it prayed other. Are there prayer meetings anymore? Well, you mentioned the gospel earlier. You got people going in and out of the church. They can't even tell you what it is that they believe in. So how can you be saved if you cannot tell me the gospel?


I've been a pastor for almost 30 years. And I have stood behind that wooden box and I have preached that the entirety of the gospels, all 66 books in entirety. And when you get to the passage which says, you know, you'll be persecuted and reviled and blessed, are you for my namesake, right? I've heard that I've never faced it until I stepped into politics.


That passage never meant more to me. When I stepped into politics and ran for the assembly, like my car got keyed, I got death threats, windows were broken. They sued me. I was pursued and followed, inundated with obliterating mail.


My own party came after me. I saw the worst of humanity. I was I mean, it was awful what we went through and the and I've never felt closer to the Lord, more prayerful and saw people's lives inspired and moved. Then when I stepped into the into the public square. Right. Satan was never concerned about me being behind that wooden box as the walls were closing in on me.


Rob, I got to tell you, the Christians, the real Christians I know in Washington, DC and in Sacramento. Their story is exactly that story, and I'm got to tell you, there's there's men and women and in D.C. that I know that I admire them so much because I couldn't take that kind of heat. They love the Lord and they love this country and they love what's right. They're doing something about it. If it cost them their lives, they die every day and I am blown away by them.


I would love to see that more in the American Western Church. You know what's killing them, though?


And the reason why we're losing more and more representation in a constitutional republic is because the the lack of proper teaching from the pulpits, how to operate in legislation that you win by increments and and because they're single issue and they're not broad understanding of how to move the the needle the minute one of these conservatives votes in a capacity they don't like, not understanding all the dynamics of what they're up against, they immediately eviscerate them.


We eat our own and then we people are left abandoned. And the church doesn't support them. They don't they don't go out and walk precincts for them. They won't even let them come and let them pray over them in the services. I think it was Walter Martin who said that. Walter Martin.


Now I'm going way back.


That was back. He was was a corporal.


He was the father of the apologetics movement of modern day. Walter Martin said, As I look around, I see the Christian church is the only one that shoots its wounded.


Now, that's got to change, but right now, a lot of you know, a lot of pastors hide behind government orders with a zeal and a passion that I'd like to see for the Bible. All of a sudden, you know, we've got to be we've got to obey the president or we've got to obey the governor. We've got to obey the mayor when I'd love to see that kind of commitment to obey.


I mean, I have this question a lot for Christians, and it's an obedience to convenience. Yeah. I don't I don't have a lot of Christians that I struggle with. Romans 13. I don't. I mean, so let me just give you let me just ask this. Your Bible believing Christian like Joseph Part Trinko, Bondarenko unwrinkled. Yeah. I was mispronounces awesome evangelists in Russia. Did he did he was he doing what the Bible told him to do?


He was in daily defiance to Soviet law every day.


Absolutely. Sorry. Better yet, let me let's let's pretend that one of his converts, which he had many and disciples who was in the Soviet government, they go up to him and say, I need you to go to that village and go shoot 10 percent because I do it all the time. Go take your gun and go shoot 10 percent of the village. If you go do that, are you doing what God wants you to do? No.


So I find no, you just doesn't really confused me Christians like.


Well, you have the scripture says it's for our good.


They're there for our good. Yeah. So the the decree or suggestion is made from the halls of power. No more church. So we must obey them so we're not going to church anymore. So even though Jesus said behold, I've said before you an open door. I firmly believe that pastors don't have the authority to close the doors of their church. Just my conviction. I think I could back it up biblically.


That said, I'll stand with you when you say, oh, you're you're defying the government. Tell that to the church in Vietnam. Who meets in secret because they're getting their tongues cut off so that they don't kill them. They just cut their tongues off so they can't speak, but they meet anyway. Tell that to the church that meets underground in North Korea or in Saudi Arabia or Iran, it's illegal, punishable by death.


They meet anyway. Are you going to tell me that you're going to tell them you're disobeying your government?


Some would. Some Christians say that you're disobeying Romans. 13 stop to. I just have. That's the extrapolation of their current argument trying to delegitimize you guys.


Yeah, well, I wonder I wonder about that DNA.


Oh, you're welcome to hold that position because they live in a pluralistic society where they have that freedom. You have the right to be wrong.


Yeah, they have the yeah. They have the liberty to that for that. For two hundred forty four years, men and women have been fighting for that and they get to hold those views. Yeah. And they have the First Amendment to be able to do that. And if you're pacifists, people fought so that you could be pacifist. It's really convenient. It's true. Yeah it is. What kind of OK.


What kind of government. It's never happened before where the founders are either a Christian or they know about the Christian life and they come to an agreement where it fits the government that they're going to hand you fits for the most ardent believer and the most ardent atheist. Everybody gets the same rights that's never happened before. Why they were comfortable in their faith view. Their world view was good with them to the point where, hey, you're an atheist, you can have the same rights that we do.


We're not threatened by that.


Was it wasn't it? Was it? When Bob mckewon and you look at four percent of the population. Yeah, we've been here for 244 years. We represent four percent of the population.


But because of the freedom we've been given in this form of government, designed with a creator in mind and understanding that that man is innately sinful and you have to separate the powers because power wants to concentrate and it pushes it down to the individual to have that relationship with God complete freedom like they had in the wilderness, ten, Ten Commandments as simple as possible, and government was to be limited. And because of that freedom, you have skyscrapers around the world because an American invented the elevator.


You have buildings in the desert because an American invented air conditioning. You have the Internet because an American invented it. You can fly there because American invented the airplane. You can go on and on and on because of this freedom. And then you say, well, no, you know, socialism and socialism is more like Jesus. Whoa, I'm sorry. What?


That's a violation to the Ten Commandments. Thou shall not steal national covid. You're not doing your homework, Pastor.


Dig into this stuff. Right. Go beyond your myopic view and and do something in a greater capacity for your people.


Are they are chanting are they that naive or is it that likes. Have become more important, it's the social pressure of am I liked in Jesus warned us about this. He warned us, beware when old men speak well of you. Yeah, you went through this personally, Charlie. With which time?


With the pastor. Yeah, I remember with the pastor that came out against you on social media because he got beat.


I don't see any names there, wasn't it? Big pastor came out against me even though he liked me once and decided he didn't like me as soon as he got called out for the fact he liked me. But we all watched that happen. Yeah, but that's OK. I'm honestly, I'm so at peace with it. He's the one that I think is having to pay a price for being a coward. But yeah. Look, what is it?


Yes, I think I think it's a couple of things. Number one, they're poorly staffed and it's the first problem, I think that these churches are poorly staffed and they hire these young.


Incredibly naive, social media driven Christians that went to either Wheaten, Calvin or Taylor, and they do nothing but economics, American history or culture, and they wear their skinny jeans. No offense, people wear skinny jeans and stop on right now. I know, but they staffed them all throughout their church and like a virus, it spreads. And that's the first problem. Number two, I think that they didn't do it. You and Rob did for decades leading up to this moment and at least incorporated American first principles into their, you know, teaching throughout the last couple of decades.


So their congregation has been completely unaware of how to interact with any of these. There's a lot to be said for what you just said, because for me personally, I'm not saying for you is for me.


I spent. I spent decades in the secular world working for corporations. That that preparation was fantastic for a church ministry life. Yes, and I learned early on from having a Marine Corps dad, you don't work, son, you don't eat.


That's right.


Well, my goodness, my dad was not a Bible believing man until a week before he died, but that's right out of the Bible.


If a man does not eat, I mean work, neither shall he. Yes. So, well, some of these pastors, look, they they entertain a very dangerous version of Thomas More's Utopia, where maybe we can have heaven on earth. There's nothing biblical about this. We can get really close to hell on earth. I mean, we really can't we don't know how close, but we can get in that direction, let's put it that way.


Just go to the Soviet Union. You just abolish villages and people starve. I mean, think about how inhumane it is if someone starved to death. And that is that is weeks of crying out and suffering. I mean, starving to death is a one of the most torturous ways you can kill somebody. 40 million people died of starvation in the Soviet Union in a decade, which is not an uncommon thing in communist China today.


Well, no. And so you study the past. I do. I struggle with this because they should know better. They should and they don't. And they're weak and they're cowardly. And I don't give them excuses anymore. I don't they they decide they do not want to know and they are ideologues more than they're actually in the pursuit of truth. If you are really defending the ideas of Marxist Leninism after what we have documented, this is no longer theory.


It is no longer some fun. You're right. This is no longer it's no longer like a coffee shop exercise. You're complicit. It just isn't now either. You are actually so naive and you should resign as a pastor then you should. Absolutely. Because you are not in a position to guide people at all or you know better and you are doing that. You are carrying the water for the enemy because there if you look at where Satan wants what ideology is Satan actually want to see grow.


He wants to see a belief in no God because that is one of the greatest things you can possibly accomplish. Nietzsche carried more water for Satan than anyone could possibly imagine, saying God is dead right. And there's a lot of different ways you can skew past that.


But secondly, I think that Satan is a huge advocate in in almost the evangelistic position of secular, nihilistic humanism. Absolutely. And I mean, so absolutely. You believe in nothing? Nothing matters. All that really matters is yourself indulgences. The government is just and look at people who indulge in that.


Look at people today who indulge in their choice, their pleasure, their their almost automaton like.


That's right. They're almost catatonic. Yeah. They are unplugged. There is no reality to them. They haven't sweat. They haven't suffered.


I mean, people look, isn't this something we need to learn how to suffer. We need to learn how to eat.


Look, maybe the economy is going to go that way, but the way the way this whole thing's going. So here's one of the things you and I are going to talk about in just a moment, which is the what we're supposed to do for maturing people are soon to be maturing people is not to remove the remove the dangers from the jungle. It's not to remove the jungle at all and then put them in a safe box. And what I'm saying right now should be so incredibly self-evident that it doesn't need to be said.


But we're at a place where it needs to be said or someone who's 17 and 18. You shouldn't try to create an environment that is easier or even more relaxing or more comfortable for them. First of all, that is immoral, unrealistic, dangerous, and it actually is societally suicidal. What you should do is try to make that person the strongest possible person you can to be able to encounter the suffering, endure the suffering, be able to have an aims that they can get through those moments and they can almost have a heroic journey through it so that they can understand that the suffering is inevitable.


And I'm now a stronger person, the universe does the exact opposite. That's right. The university actually tries to say, you know what, the suffering is not inevitable. It's not what's wrong is the society. So let's try to remove all the different systems of suffering. This is a.. Biblical. It's a.. God's Antichrist. All of it. Right.


Christian, they they call them they wrap them in bubble wrap and put it on them and then have them go out. And parents do this to no idea.


Parents do this to and I talk about this a lot and parents have way over pander to their kids. They helicopter them. They they do them a disservice. And then we wonder why they're 20 years old and they cannot hear an opinion they don't like without screaming belligerently. And so to finish the point, you that you now have an entire generation of Christian pastors that have been raised in this entire world where they have been deceptively taught a I want to be very careful the way I say this.


Let's just say a false intersection of the Bible and Marxist doctrine. Yeah. And I know these documents very well. I know what drives these people. And there is a part I think it's might first or second, Peter, about beware of false prophets.


It's second, Peter, chapter two and three. I can't think of a better example of that. If you read the book, The Gift of Pain, and it was written by a doctor that dealt with all the lepers. Amazing book.


Oh, no, I have no. So he says that that if you want to live in a world where there's no pain, go to a leper colony that's right there on because Hansen's disease takes away all fear on them and they don't they don't die from from the disease itself.


What they die of is infection because they don't know when they're stepping on a nail or burning their hand because pain is gone. That's right.


And they're just rotting. And so when we take away this gift from God of pain in a fallen world to show us that we're not doing what we're supposed to be doing, and we and it's what Aristotle calls the doing good and feeling good. Feeling good is you look at someone who's struggling with with bondage to heroin. And the feeling good thing is to give them more heroin. The do good is to take it away from them.


No, let's give them needles. And now you've got all these walking zombies that you that are feeling no pain, but they're going nowhere in life and they're not in the streets and defecating themselves.


And we call that good government.


That's awful. We're responsible for what we're doing to the citizens. And you don't enable them. A man who doesn't doesn't care for his family. You have consequences. You have responsibility. There is there's a you must work. This is what we're supposed to do on this earth.


God made us that way. The self-worth and value.


How many kids would be lifted up out of depression if they if they actually worked, if they had chores, if they sweat and I mean sweat actual sweat work and didn't and had to get a callus, a callus on your hands.


Yes. Is a great thing.


And so I'm going to do Nassim Taleb a disservice here. But he wrote in a phenomenal book called Antifragile and I never liked the title. I still don't because I think it doesn't do a service to how phenomenal the analysis that he puts forward or he frames that most of the world is fragile. And the only word he could think of that would be the opposite of fragility would be antifragile. And his argument is that things that are antifragile survive and they get stronger and they have meaning and responsibility, whereas most of society tries to create a hyperextension of fragility.


And if you're able to actually be antifragile by the greatest generation was no matter what you throw at me, we are going to survive no matter what it is, no matter what. Two World Wars. Yep, fine. Great Depression. Bring it on. Right. Korean War after that one. We're good. Right. And so there is an acceptance of a toughness that sets in. That's right. There's a mentality of, well, don't lessen the pressures on my shoulders.


Let's get my shoulder stronger so I can be able to endure that even better. And we have done such an incredible disservice to generations now. And I think for Christians as well, it's that what what a what a pastor does in bed teaching to a church. It's what a parent does to a kid when it's like my child would never not my child.


If the kid comes home and says, you know what, this is what happened, man, I don't know about you guys, but when I.


I didn't want to come home and tell my parents what happened, because the first thought from my dad was, would you do? Well, you're right.


Your dad was patriotic. He lay down stripes and you'd see stars. But there's also there's look, there's a much deeper point to what you're saying, though, is that you respected your father because there was discipline and order and its hierarchy. Right. And eventually, through the maturation process, that hierarchy actually goes on its face where you actually end up becoming the caregiver for your father. And that's biblical. How? However, what's happened now is we now have entire social media movements that try to instill, let's say, disintegration for an eight year old against the father, mother hierarchy, rebel against your not just rebels, not even the right word.


It is almost revolution against to create a revolution against your parents. Report them, turn them in. There are 14 year olds that say, I hate my parents. They're a bunch of racists. They raise money from the social media companies and they're getting emancipated age 15 and they're leaving their parents. And this is getting glamorized all around. It's getting glamorized and it's in Matthew's gospel. Jesus actually talked about that.


So inclosing Rob and Jack, before we have to go to the next one thing that we're doing, what can Christians do if they're stuck in a church that is being led by a coward or by a comment?


By the way, the next thing that we're going to go do, we could get arrested. Great. It's amazing. I mean, today. Today. Yeah, I don't really care. I tweeted it out at this point. I'm just like, your question is what should they actually want to arrest us? Because they understand the print, they actually understand martyrdom, and they know that if they arrested us, that would be such an unbelievable mistake. Yeah.


Today the church has to be led by pastors who are willing to divorce themselves from peer pressure, from likability, to have an actual vision, a passion, a calling from God that is worthy of their life when you have a pastor who's dead. Then you're going to find a church that's alive. Wow, I would take it one step further, too. I love that, Jack, that's like just made that up. It's yeah, that dog will hunt and good preachers' bark preacher steals.


I'm taking that.


I would have this that in these trying times when when when I watch men like Jack and others that inspire me, my biggest struggle, Charlie and I want to say this to all the folks in Christendom.


To avoid it being about politics completely. Remember this and never forget this, its people are not the enemy, they're the opportunity. So when you stand stand in humility that you're doing it for the people that revile you and despise you and you're standing so that they can protest in that freedom and that's why you're doing it be broken in that regard. This isn't a pride issue and be willing to give everything up for their freedom, even though they despise you for what you're doing.


Do it anyways because you love them.


And that these are two American heroes, everybody, Pastor Jack, Pastor Rob, their churches are open. They're flourishing. They're bringing people to Christ. And like you said, maybe these more and more pastors are coming around. I'm telling you, and I don't know if they will, some are digging into the wrong direction. And that's fine. If you go to a bad church, I should say bad church, just not the right way to say if you go to a church led by someone who is currently being deceived, I've made the opinion that it's OK to withdraw and find a church, that someone is being led by someone.


And you got two good Southern California options right here, one of the largest metropolitan areas in the country. So just leave the church, pull your tithes, put it to someone that wants to actually fight for what is good in the world, share things, you know, good things with those unstrapped.


You don't keep subsidizing people that are confused because your withdrawal from that actually might bring them to the right direction.


Say good. All right. Thank you, everybody. Email us Freedom at Charlie Kirk, Dotcom freedom at Charlie Kirk Dotcom. Get involved. Turning Point USA, USA Dotcom. Consider supporting our program. Charlie Kirkenes report. We do 12 to 14 podcasts a week. How pays for our production team and everything.


Thanks so much, everybody. God bless. Thanks so much for listening.


Everybody please help out Jack and Rob. You can email me freedom at Charlie Kirkconnell. I can give you options on how to help them. We're going to post some links to Charlie Kirk Dotcom deal to help Rob and Jack who are under attack and being threatened with arrest right here, right now. Please consider getting involved. Turning Point USA, USA Dotcom, Teepee USA, Dotcom. Thank you guys so much for listening. God bless.