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We make mistakes, but we come together and we talk about it. We try to get through it and we care enough to actually be like, well, we got to fix this. And so I think, like we do not have it all figured out. We are human and like we're sensitive and it's hard. This is like a really complicated, tricky instrument, weird time.

And like, we're fumbling through it sometimes and sometimes we're ace in the hole, welcomed in her shoes.

I'm Izzy Greenspan, deputy style editor at The Cut. Then this podcast, we talk to ambitious women about how they've come this far and where they're going next. Jenna Lyons was for many years the soul of J.Crew. She started at the company at the age of 21. It was her first real job and she worked her way up until she was the executive creative director and the president.

She took what was considered, you know, like a solidly preppy mall brand. And by the time she was done, it was so fun and cool that Michelle Obama was wearing her clothes.

But in 2017, she left. And for a while it was a bit of a mystery. What would Jenna Lyons do next?

Now, we know on December 3rd, the show Stylish with Jenna Lyons will debut on HBO.

Max, it's a competition reality show in which Jenna is trying to find a new person to join her styling team.

And it introduces us to her colleagues, stylist Sarah Clary and child of Ford, who is her chief of staff. They're all very close and they all met at J.Crew.

And together they figure out outfits, renovate interiors and generally try to make the world a more stylish place, as if that wasn't enough to tackle during a pandemic this fall. Jenna, Sarah and Kyle also launched a line of eyelashes, a love scene which in classic Jenna Lyons style, feel both down to earth and fabulous. At the same time, Jenna's actually got a genetic condition and among other things, she has no eyelashes.

So she made them. She's talked a lot about feeling like an outsider growing up and about how fashion let her reimagine this whole new life. I talked to her and Sarah and Kyle about their friendship, about working together, about leaving J.

Crew and about the urge to redecorate during a pandemic. Here is our conversation, Jenna.

I think that everyone I know has at least one thing in their closet directly influenced by you.

Did you set out to have that kind of wide influence?

I mean, that's the reason I got into fashion, was I wanted to be able to like. Have some connection to people that was bigger than my small town that I grew up in and like, I don't know, it's really like expensive and it's kind of amazing. It's a really incredible experience to walk into, you know, an airport and see a double govi or a stadium kokabee or a print that we designed. It's so nice. It's like the best feeling in the world.

Yeah, I'm sure.

It's like, you know, when a writer sees someone reading their book on the subway, but like times a thousand, if someone's putting that on themselves, they're making a choice and they feel like they look good in it. So you supported them in some way in their day, which is pretty it's a pretty unique position to be in. It's really rewarding.

So a little bit about the show. I've seen a couple of the episodes. They were really fun. One.

Yes. Yes. It was totally entertaining. It was really fun. I loved how helpful it was.

Like I loved all the little styling tips were really great.

I mean, the best way I can describe it is we took on transformations, transformations that revolved around home ideas, around beauty ideas and around fashion. And we approached them with the most authenticity and and just kind of a really fun way to try and solve problems so really quick and down and dirty.

And then on top of that, you're getting to see a real glimpse inside of what it's like around hanging out in our house and hanging out in our life and office and apartment that are above each other.

It's a very strange and very intimate process, and it's also very real.

Had you had fantasies of being on TV before? I mean, were you, like, watching reality shows? And was there ever a part of you that was like, I want to do that?

I had zero fantasy of being a reality TV show. I mean, I had I had a fantasy of playing like blinco on prices. Right.

But like not a character on a reality television show.

I mean, I watched Project Runway and Real Housewives and, you know, the cooking know chef. And I love all that stuff, but never in a million years. I know. Did you have a fantasy to be on TV?

No. I mean, I think that when we did, we did watch what happens if we were the bartenders. And you remember when Sonja Morgan came out and I was really excited you were like that again. And I was like, oh my God, it was just my dream to be in the same room as her, not necessarily to be doing any of this.

I think I think it's interesting, though, because, like the idea of reality television and growing up, having it around, I think and I don't want to speak for either gender or Sarah, but a hesitation was, you know, a potential horror story of like, how are you going to be portrayed and. Exactly. And is it going to be dramatic and is it going to be that type of reality show? So when I first started and again, I don't want to speak for anyone, I was extremely guarded.

And I think having Jenna there as as I think for Sarah and I to be our protector in a way to say like, no, listen, my name is on the door here. We're going to make sure we make a really great show. We're going to be proud of it. At the end of the day. It's not going to be salacious by any means. It was the most humane and wonderful experience of being on a TV show. It completely it completely dashed my previous expectation of what it was going to be like.

But it was a kind show even when the cameras were rolling. I mean, we like there were so many things happening when the cameras are rolling and where we're interacting with the crew or helping them move things or I mean, they were in our life and Jenna's apartment. So we were all like living together. Like there was a show about the show as well. Happening.

Right. And what I mean, it's it's sort of a competitive show, like it is a competition. But I mean, the episode I watched, it was an episode where there were two contestants who both won.

Basically, you guys are trying to do a creative challenge while also having it be a competition.

And I know, Sarah, you said something about it being kind, but it seems like it wasn't cutthroat at all. Right?

No, I mean, I think like and I've learned this through my own experience as a freelancer and then especially with Jenna, is that you can give, like, really positive, constructive feedback and learn from that and push yourself to be better, which I think was always the goal with the show. Right. Especially with the associates. It wasn't to be like a challenge, like you're in or you're out. It was like, hey, this was really good.

And maybe both of you guys did a really great job on this. Maybe this was a little better. And here are things you can learn and like because at the end of the day, we are hiring someone, right? So sometimes you'll do things really, really well. And other times you're like needs improvement. And so those I felt like were real. Those were the honest moments about even when you're getting feedback in the job that I think you don't always see play out in camera.

Yeah, giving good feedback, I think is as actually a skill and, you know, fashion. There's such a stereotype of, like everyone is just so mean.

But I don't think that's true. Personally, I don't know how that it's interesting.

I think that was important to us when we were talking about doing this was there is a stir, if you think about it, there really aren't many fashion shows that actually have you really?

Behind the scenes and see what goes on or understand who the people really are, it's all pretty constructed. And if and honestly, there aren't very many at all. I mean, Project Runway, while it's an amazing show to watch and I love some of the things that are created, the fact is you would never in real life be sent to a grocery store and told that you have 20 dollars and you have to find something within the grocery store to make a garment.

Right.

What's more fun, that's for television. And it's amazing, but it's not reality. And so I think when we we really wanted to create something that toggled between that space of what is really reality and then documentary. And so how do we combine those two things and let you get a real view into what it's like? And, you know, we're not we're pretty on this. But I think in honest in real life, people need tenderness and like and support.

You know, they don't everyone doesn't do well when they're embarrassed or ashamed because they didn't kind of get it right.

We approach it from the perspective of an interview. Right. So, I mean, there are horror stories of leaving an interview in tears. But I think that if you have a reality show where the winner is crowned the winner for the sake of being called winner of said show, that's different from we're looking to hire someone. And this is an opportunity for us to try to get the absolute best out of every single person sitting there. So it's not it's not.

You're the worst. So you're the best. It's like we want everyone here to succeed so we can hire one that, you know, happens to be the person that we're looking for.

I was just going to ask if there was a particular challenge that you guys did that you, like, really loved and wanted to kind of tell the story of I don't know if that's like a spoiler.

I mean, I have a love hate with one challenge, which I know Kyle like. It's a very triggering word for me.

These three letters that you and I have a different opinion on what no one is going to be saying.

No, but I do think I think the hardest challenge was the last one. But I don't want to say what it was. But it was definitely the most, you know, dynamic in the sense that it was also we were filming it in the midst of it. So it had all these other layers to it because we were you know, we'd shot episode one through seven. We were supposed to have ten and we shot Episode one, three seven, and then the shutdown hit.

And so then we very carefully shot Episode eight and then decided to not do the last two because of the shutdown. And so it it took on a lot of complications that each associate really went through. And then we had a taste of it.

I think the last was my favorite, but because it was the climax. Right. And it got very serious. And I think that the level of craftsmanship and participation and devotion was super high. And I think we were all impressed and it was all around, I think a time for us that we three could sit back and watch. And it was super fun. I just have very fond memories of the last project and and, you know, seeing them with these two people, I'm excited to watch it.

Can I ask you guys about working together and promoting a show and getting all of this happening during a global pandemic?

How are you guys handling that? Are you a pod together? I'm sorry.

That sounds so suggestive. No, we love that. We are. We're deeply connected and we spend a lot of time together. And, yes, we've been we we test and then are together and we are constantly together. And and I don't think and we don't I don't do well when they're not around, it's actually really hard. It's been than some moments where we have been separated from each other for whatever reason is, you know, it's happening and it's hard.

I, I, I was alone the first like real six months of covid, like really alone. Like we were not together and it was so hard, really, really hard. And I think like I feel for people who are not don't have a community to be with because it is a devastating experience like they have saved my life. No question. Like on during the show and during the covid. And I mean, there's no question I would not be I would be in like serious lockdown of my own straitjacket if it wasn't for them.

There's definitely a benefit to. Making a television show, which is something none of us have ever done before, together, launching a business love scene and then genuinely liking to spend time with each other and also not being able to see anyone else. So it's kind of like all of the things we have to be together for anyway. So we're we're apart.

You're the literal place we were because we have so much to do. I know I know the launching a business.

I mean, between the show and trying to film and then doing this other side project, the love scene thing that we had to get up and running and out while the world was shut down was it was special.

Yeah. The timing must have been a little tough. So all three of you were working together on a love scene?

Yes. Yes. Everything together. Can you talk a little bit about that, about sort of the idea behind a love scene? Totally. I don't have any eyelashes. And so I don't know if you have this experience, but anything that you sort of find deficient in yourself, your tendency to notice and others. And so I always notice people's eyelashes. And when I was a J.Crew, I noticed that a lot of the girls in the office were coming in with eyelash extensions.

And, you know, that was unusual because most of the girls would take her work little to no makeup. And so to see them coming in with eyelash extensions is kind of unusual. And then on the flip side, it was also when all of the YouTube ers and Instagram was kind of becoming more the place to see makeup tutorials and videos. And I was spending all this time deep diving, watching like Huta beauty, where they would put on like 12 layers of concealer and highlighter and contour and then seven shades of eyeshadow and then the eyelash goes on.

I was like, very interesting to me that these girls who are at J.Crew, who are really looking for really pared down beauty and then these women who are wanting really glam, they're both focusing on eyelashes. And I was like, wow, I wonder if there's something in between. And when I started to really look, there was very little in between, almost nothing, honestly. I mean, while there was more pared back beauty looks, the lashes themselves were still very long and very over the top.

And I don't have any eyelashes, so I can't wear that crazy. I was like, what? Maybe there's something here. And so we just kind of try and and it's working. It's so exciting.

So can I ask you, Jenna, as a glasses icon, do they bump into your glasses? Because that's always driving me crazy. No, no.

The ones that are the ones that are if you are glasses where I would suggest starting with Levi, Kate, Iris, those are the ones that are on the shorter side. And Troy, if you are glasses wearing, you do not for sure want them to hit the Romy's the longer one side. Stay away from me. But those are the three best ones, I think for if you're like us right now, they don't hit my glasses at all.

How did you pick the names? I always wonder about that.

I mean, a mix. They are people we admire. There are people we know they are. One of them is my niece and her name is Luka. And we also wanted to make sure that all of the names were only four letters for just reasons, because the way that we designed the site, if you look at the actual product page where you see the light, the the name is in very large letters and it's very important that it's two letters on one side of the screen and two on the other.

So we really like they all have to be four letters that we don't have. Isabella, even though I love that name, we couldn't have Isabella because then the font would have had to be tiny. So we're like, all right, let's just decide to be consistent. And the good news is, instead of having to name thirteen thousand products like we had a J.Crew, we only have 13.

That makes it easier for sure. Yeah. I wanted to ask you guys a little bit about sort of the challenges of working together as a creative team.

And I was wondering if you guys had any advice for people who are like working with their friends, working in groups, especially right now in this like Zoome era about how to get anything done.

I know these voice dropped when she asked that question.

And I mean, I can only answer for myself, but I think I mean, first and foremost, I when I signed up to do any of this with Jenna, whether it was a show or anything, I knew I wanted to be full in and part of more than just working for her, but working with her and being part of the family. And what comes with that is being really honest and crying and laughing and saying what you feel and just putting it all out there and being all in.

And I think. I think that that's benefited us because we are all in and I think that. You can avoid hopefully some pitfalls sort of come with just not being able to communicate because someone's in charge or someone not in charge or you're in an office setting. I mean, we're sort of like it's. It's not a normal world that we're also working in or that we're in her office or downwards and zoom, so it's I think it's trying to over communicate and not assume that someone knows how you're feeling.

Sometimes I'm good at that. Sometimes I'm not. But I think that we're all we're all working. But I also think there's a there's a sixth sense that the three of us have that I just there's this chemistry, but also we can read each other and we support each other in different ways. Right. And push each other in different ways of like you need to do more of that or less of this or whatever. And that just comes with, again, being really honesty.

And it comes from a place of like love because we're family, we're in it like we joke like but like we will be an old folks home together, like wheeling around in our wheelchairs, like, remember when we did that TV show.

But I think also like coming from a large I mean, J.Crew is big, right? There was over a thousand people in an office and that's where I grew up. I spent 10 years there. And that's not even as much time as Jenna or service. There were like learning how to work in a large corporation. It was definitely an adjustment period. And then layer covid on top of that, there is this sense where you have to be personal.

You have to be, to Sarah's point, completely honest. You have to use I feel this way when this happens, you know, you have to be very focused on problem solving and being respectful and. Injecting the humanity into a business, right, like we're all people, but we're also trying to make something successful here. So it was it's a learning experience. It's like every day you learn something new and it continues. And I think that it's helpful.

It really does show you the.

The like being together, being in person, working in an office physically is something that, you know, we can do Zoom's we can we can meet and chat. But being in person, there's something else about that. And I think that removing that piece of it, too, has just been an entirely different level of complicated that we didn't expect.

It helps somewhere like make it a lot to that sort of like makes it easy.

It's another quote right there. And that happens. Also a shout out. We have we have a love scene specifically. We have like an absolutely amazing team that's not the three of us that we would not be able to have built it without.

We have just a wonderful group of people that are all learning along the way to be a Zoome and doing things socially distanced and with covert protocols. But yeah, it's like added to the resume is something that I've never done before. I still a business while we weren't able to be together.

I think the undertone and the thing that actually I also keep in mind is like the assumption is that we actually have it all figured out or that we actually have an answer. And the fact matter is, we make mistakes, we fuck up, we hurt each other's feelings, we get hurt, we're sensitive, we make mistakes. But we come together and we talk about it and we try to get through it and we care enough to actually be like, well, we got to fix this.

And so I think, like, we do not have it all figured out. We are, as they said, we're human and like we're sensitive and it's hard. It is hard. This is like a really complicated, tricky, intimate, weird time. And like, we're fumbling through it sometimes and sometimes we're ace in the hole.

Yeah, I think we all are. Can I ask. And the answer could be no.

But do you guys have any stories about a particular moment where it felt like everything was falling apart and then you figured out a way to bring it together? Just one moment when you just want one, I would say that the the standard it's not one moment, but it is it's a little bit when you are disconnected and when you're not in person and when the only way to talk to someone is we assume or a phone call, I think sometimes communication breaks down.

And I will say that there have been a number of times and Jenna has reminded me of this, of, well, take a moment, think about your feelings, approach the person, tell them how you feel and how you and remedy the situation with them. And, you know, be honest and open. And I think that like that it hasn't happened to me once. It's happened to me multiple times during this process. And I think that it's very good advice and it's been extremely helpful.

I mean, I think I can say, like full transparency and this is something that I've really struggled with. And it's like I'm used to being in a world where everyone had a job and everyone's job description was very clear. Everyone knew exactly what they were going to do. And, you know, we were building a business with a group of people, some of them I knew, some of them I didn't. Some people had experience in history. Some people didn't.

And trying to delineate and make clear roles when it's a small, tiny company. So where I was used to having like six different people who would make up the one. Now you have one person doing six jobs, yet there's crossover with other people. And like we made mistakes, we fumbled over it. I didn't leave properly. I didn't give people the right guidance. I wasn't clear enough about how things would be set up. And it was really hard.

It made the people who we were working with really it was everyone was struggling. And that was really something that I learned like deeply, is that, you know, running a big company and actually having people having situations where clear roles and responsibilities are very straightforward. And then you go to this tiny little incubus and it's yeah, I like I messed that one up. And it was, again, like a great learning experience. But everyone around me had to learn and get dragged through.

It taught me. And that was hard.

You know, we struggled with that. And that was you know, I don't know if I have any advice of how to fix it other than like, you know, just being really open and paying attention and talking humility.

Yeah, yeah.

Humility is a big one for all that actually ties back. And I think to. What you guys have been saying about the show, about wanting it to feel really honest and authentic. There's something I find is far more I feel more connected and more I believe people and I trust them when they're honest. I don't believe, like mantras. I don't love it when I find that brands or people or, you know, say things that you feel like or maybe too perfect or don't share the donc the downside of the hard parts, because I think the fact is nobody lives without hard parts.

And that's why it's interesting I said this before, but I find Chrissy Teigen's approach to Instagram really refreshing because she really does share with you that she's beautiful and has this incredible life and she's talented and smart and funny and she has a wonderful husband and these two beautiful children. But she actually struggles with really basic things and parent-- parenting things and normal things. And it's really humanizing and it makes me really appreciate that in her and so I trust her because I feel like if she's going to tell me something, I actually think she's going to tell me the truth.

And I like that. And I think that people see through it. People are sick of being you know-- false advertising is an old term, but it still happens. And, you know, there's a whole world of Instagram that is false advertising, meaning people that are presenting a life that is really not is is perfection. And that's just not normal. No one is perfect. And when you find that person, I would like to meet them because I want to be really annoyed for like five minutes.

And then I'm not going like them, but I just like I can't imagine, like, who has a perfect life, like, I don't know, a single person.

Right. I think especially in this year with all these challenges, it's like who even wants to see that anymore?

You know, I think like when we made the show, too, I think I give credit, so much credit to Sarah and Jenna where there were moments when we were filming where it was like time out, time out, time out. This feels produced. This feels unnatural. This feels like it's not authentic. And it would we bring it down. And we producers are in and we're talking like, how do we reformat what we are doing right now to make it more honest and make it more reactive?

And I think that that is something that makes the show good. And and I hope people see that because, you know, there are moments where you lean into maybe a little bit more of a trope and and we all held hands. We were like, this is fun. Like, yeah, let's do this moment. But the rest of it, we tried to be as genuine and reactive and emotional and personal as possible. That's cool.

We've been asking everyone the like, how has how you dressed changed during the pandemic? Then I feel like there's this follow up question of like when it's finally over, when we're all vaccinated, like how-- what are we going to want to look like? Where do you think style is going from here?

I mean, it's gone to hell in a handbasket. I can say that for sure. The fact if I actually put on a full outfit and wearing pants in any given call, like it's a miracle, I can't look like I want I cannot wait to get dressed up.

I mean, it's saved our AMEX bill for sure.

I will say personally for me fashion has only gone up because I've been surrounded by Sarah Cleary and Jenna Lyons and they've literally taken me on as a fashion project and I'm better for it.

The best part of the best part of the show that you do not see and that we actually feel like we need to do a full zoom montera on is Kyle's glow up and his hair. Kyle, literally in the middle of the pandemic, decamped to Hawaii. He came back with like a C a seventy two pack of abs and like literally like hair for days. It was like Barry Gibb got off the airplane. I was like, whoa, it was amazing. And you when you watch his trajectory from the beginning of the show to the end, it's like, oh, God, that's a fucking glow up--

He's a babe!

You guys, it's I credit you both.

I sort of you know, I always dressed with, like, the mood that I want to be in. So I sort of I like to pretend maybe that I feel better than I do sometimes. So I'll dress up a little bit. But, um, yeah, I think I think people like we're already in a casual culture, right. In general, like how people dress in the office. And I think now just kinda like sweatpants or I read somewhere that like most companies are selling out on their PJs and their sweat suits. And I'm like, oh my God, that's where it's going. But I love like just like Jonah. I love the idea of dressing up and I love wearing heels. And thankfully, I have a four year old who insists I look like a princess. So sometimes I get dressed up just to take her to the grocery store. So I think that I don't know where fashion is going. I don't know. I didn't I sometimes didn't know where it was going before the pandemic because I think there's so many ways to go and be inspired and to look. So who knows, maybe we'll all be wearing, like, fancy hats and all fancy clothes after this because we'll want to burn all our covid clothes.

That way. I'm so excited.

To burn all the sweat pants and to go out?

I mean, I definitely have a pile of things I will never want to wear again that I'm going to burn.

It's like it's like maternity clothes.

Exactly what I was gonna say when you're pregnant, like, I remember that I was pregnant and like, I never want to see this ever again.

I feel like I can't not ask you about making the really big transition from J.Crew to going out on your own. And I'm sure every interview has already asked you about it if I was so sick of talking about this. But with that kind of a career transition, like, what were you the most afraid of? What was going through your head?

Oh, God. I mean, a million things. I mean, I think primarily. I think that when you have any kind of success and you know, and success is measured by what it is to you, but I think I felt like I'd really gotten to a place in my life I never expected to. And I was so incredibly grateful and blown away that any of the things that actually happened to me happened to me. And then you get especially, you know, I wasn't young when left J Crew either, and I got really scared, like, will I ever have any success? Is anyone going to want me? And like, you know, is it the whole. Is it time for the young ones? And I'm just like, you know, going to be put out to pasture with a cowbell around my neck. And, you know, so you have obviously imposter syndrome and like, oh, you know, well, none of it was me. I didn't do anything. And everyone's going to forget me in a couple of years. And so there was that for sure. And also just I was so connected to the brand itself. I remember being in an airport in London and this woman walked up to me. She goes, Oh, my God, are you Jenna Crew? And I was like, I'm actually not. I'm Jenna Lyons and I work at J.Crew and it's not my name. But I realized that people were so connected to me being connected to the brand and I felt like my identity was really wrapped up in the company and it was really hard to see is there a way to be myself and what was that look like and what do I do? And Lord knows, I never expected to be a television show or makeup brand, and those things didn't necessarily pop up. But I lived in a state of real fear of being able to come back honestly. And so, yeah, it's been it's been nice to have this as... I don't know, a moment to come back. And oddly enough, it's actually really nice in some ways to have it happen when I can't be out in public because it actually feels a little bit more intimate. And I feel like I'm sharing it more with Sarah and Kyle and the people who made the show as opposed to feeling like it's very public. It actually it's very strange to be launching a television show in a time when you kind of aren't going to restaurants and walking on the streets and going shopping like all of those things where you normally would run into people or someone might recognize you. None of that's happening. And so it's going to be a very private experience, which is probably better.

How do you generally feel about that? Kind of like being a super public persona? I like to you enjoy it, or is it like part of the job?

I mean, on the day is it-- the worst possible time when-- the moments that I don't enjoy it are, I came back from a trip once and I was I had I was literally I had a child at home with a rash and then girlfriend at home with a rash and another child with a rash. Every rash you could possibly imagine, one of them had two rashes. And I was standing in the middle of Duane Reade at, I don't know, 7:00 a.m. I looked like absolute death. And I had every fucking rash cream in my basket, like every rash cream you could possibly imagine filled to the brim. And like, I'm standing there, I look insane. And this person turns around, goes, "oh my God, aren't you Jenna Lyons?" I'm like. "N-- no, I guess not". I was like, mortified, like all of my preparation H and all I mean, every cream you could possibly imagine. I was like, Oh, God, in those moments it's not my favorite, but in the moments where people are just, like, super excited in the want to take a picture it's so like growing up as a kid who did, I never felt pretty or never felt beautiful having people come up and be like, can I take a picture with you? Is like, are you sure you really want a picture? But like, great, like, it's so flattering and I love it. It's so nice.

Did you have to kind of do the, like, self-branding thing where you had to think about, like, what is the Jenna Lyons brand as you were putting the show together?

I don't really think so. I think I've always been pretty clear about what I feel good about and what feels true to me. And that has never really been a place where I feel confused. I think, you know, I think it's also a really added level of pressure of trying to make sure you're protecting the people that are working with you. So obviously protecting Kyle and Sarah as much as possible. And in some ways, I think I didn't always do as good a job as I could have.

And I think that's also like protecting the people who agreed to be on the show, like the woman, Dana and and Dan, their family, their friends. And, you know, they agreed to be on the show and let me renovate their house. And I needed to do that. So it was that that was where the real pressure stood for me, was trying to be true and take care of the people around me. But for myself, it was I felt pretty clear.

That's go. Probably gets back to that authenticity thing, too, of just doing it from a place of realness anyway. OK, let's talk about interior design, because I know that interiors were like a really big part of what you wanted to do on the show.

When you're thinking about interiors, like how is that different from fashion?

Like what are the what style rules apply and what advice do you have, all of you guys?

Well, I mean, I have my own I'll let these guys share because I think it's what I think is really interesting is I come away, I always come to table something different, like it's interesting like and talking to these guys because they always come away with a slightly different perspective, which I love, because that's actually how it's supposed to be. But my only two suggestions are things that I think about her like big gestures. So trying not to make everything a little bitty and small, like pick a spot to go big with something as opposed to just like putting stuff on every table or making curios in every spot.

Like it just it's it it can make things look cluttered. And I say that looking around at my apartment that is literally littered with things right now. It's insane. But I think trying to make do big gestures is really always a good thing to start with.

And then, you know, I, I think it's always interesting the things that. People are scared of I get it like I remember a quote that I think is so funny, like you asked me how long it takes to get a pulse to a couch, I would tell you, was a year and a half, like, no idea how to even go about it. And I think that's, you know, something that I don't think we really demystified that.

But I think it is something that we'd like to tackle, you know, and really help people understand. How do you even do that? Like, what does the process look like?

Yeah, I think that, like I've learned honestly, I'll just keep singing their praises, but I don't get dressed in the morning anymore without thinking of Sarah and her being, like, boring. Nope. Chris, make it OK to do that. And this is right. Like, she's been retraining me to like how to approach style, which I think is really important. And I also think that. You know, we have conversations about what is useful when it comes to talking about interiors and style, like how do people think about this and what is the easiest, most succinct and clear way to communicate the insane amount of knowledge that you guys have.

And I think for me, it was the moment where Jenna is like, yeah, you can't just pick a paint color and you can't just pick a chair and you can just pick a piece of wood. You have to it's OK to research it. So it didn't come naturally. Like, I had to do the work. I had to be inspired. I had to scour Google images and buy magazines and do research and look up on Wikipedia what these designers did, who they are, and then take a step back and have a thoughtful planning process of colors, materials.

And, you know, it doesn't happen naturally and it doesn't happen magically. It's actually quite scientific. And I think that that to me was a huge Eye-Opening thing. And that's both her style. Sarah taught me that and both her interiors. Jenna taught me that, too. And I think to be able to take a step back and say, OK, I'm just like them at one point, like, I could do this, too. I need to just slow down and think and then maybe go to a trusted resource, like a generous or I'm lucky to have them and say, like, how does this how does this look?

And they'll say, it's good. But what if you did that? You're like, oh, OK. And you start to learn slowly over time.

But I think it's also like as I approach the way in fashion and like home, like I don't have a ton of money to spend on the clothes that I may want or the furniture piece that I want, but I am inspired, not maybe intimidated by what I see in the fashion and home magazines. I look at it as like, got it. I can't afford that, but I love it. How do I find that? How do I make that me and the price point I can find.

And they look outside of the normal retailers again, whether it's in fashion or home, and think about how to make it mine at my price point. And Jenna does a really good job showing that. And and the show, we show it through our pop up, we show it in our fashion that like it doesn't have to be intimidating. And you can your home or yourself, you can look like a million bucks without spending that. And I think people get really stuck looking at those beautiful world of interior magazines.

I mean, like, I can't do that, I can't afford it. Or the pages of Vogue would be like, I can't afford it, like and then stop eating there. And there's a whole world out there of small and vintage and consignment that you can outfit yourself in your hometown.

Do you, sir, do you have any like particular like hidden gem stores or websites that you'd recommend?

Well, I can guarantee you they're going to be Hennan. That's true. That's true. I am a really good shopper because I shop everywhere. So I will go to like any one of my favorite jumpsuits is from a like Army Navy store in Ireland when I was there for a shoot like, you know, so like meaning like go everywhere and look at everything because everyone does something well. Right. So you might have like it might be the needle in the haystack.

But I think most stores you can you can take them out of context and sort of be like, oh, that shirt looks insane on that man again. But if I take it away and pair it with my favorite Levi's, maybe it's amazing. Same thing with that table or whatever. And it's mixing like high and low and vintage and new and and matte and shiny. All the things, all the elements that we talk about in fashion sort of apply in home as well.

That Jenna does really well, like her house is like is just eye candy everywhere you go. That doesn't stop when she puts clothes on or you go into her closet as well. Like there's a reason why it's consistent.

I will say Sarah has I have completely open my eyes up to like like the second second time around kind of things like going into the she is a real, real scout that I've never seen anyone. She's taking muscle. She goes onto that website and she pulls up and she's like, what about this? I'm like like I forget how it's so good. She's so good at it. I've never seen anybody do that.

And it's fun. Diverse designers. I've never heard of them. Like she found this designer who I'm obsessed with. Now, do you see Kyak and like has found them with beautiful things and I've worn them two times. She wore them to the SAG Awards and I'm like, who the hell do you think I like.

I don't know. She had to look up how to pronounce his name.

But I do think it's the same thing with like friends I remember doing at House of my brother when he was renovating and he was so intimate and he thought that he thought all the furniture was expensive. And I was like, oh, God, no, no. You can find incredible furniture that's that's vintage. And actually, a lot of times it's far better made than that new thing that you might get from like a west down where maybe, you know, you're going to find things that are in real old school bentwood like an inside here.

But it's going to have some cuts on it. But that's okay because it actually has a petina and that's beautiful. And it's going to actually look better over time than something that is, you know, a finished veneer and has a lacquer on it that won't necessarily hold up and really understanding how vintage furniture can be incredible and actually cheaper. You just have to pop up home. One of my favorite places and live auctioneers there. I told you.

Because the secrets are secrets, centrality, when we did, we did we did a pop up for the show, so there's a pop out that's called pop up. And Jenna's favorite items, either brands that we featured on the show or or whatever, cost, home, beauty and passion are there and you can buy it.

I was supposed to say that, right. You say that because it's a really beautifully curated site of home fashion and beauty and things that she made or things that we collaborated with designers. And it's a really special marketplace that we'll just be for a few weeks.

It'll go live on the twenty sixth and then it will trickle out goods through probably the second week of December, closing on the 18th, depending on how what the responses. And I hope it's good because it's so beautiful. And the imagery that we took, it was supposed to be an in-person pop up shop with people coming and inventory and things that we all know how to do. But after covid, we were like, let's do this, let's do it on Instagram and like genic and write notes to people.

And we can do Instagram lives and make it way more personal and way more intimate with the customer. So it's been something we've been working on for eight months now and we're still working on it. And yeah, it's exciting for it to go live next week.

Special thanks to Jenna Lyons, Sarah Cleary and Kyle Difford In Her Shoes is edited and produced by Brandon McFarland. Our lead producer is Bob Parker. Stella Bagby and Nishat Kawa are the show's executive producers. The cut is made possible by the team at New York magazine. Subscribe today to support their work at the dotcom backslash subscribe.

I'm Izzy Greenspan. Thanks for listening.