Support for this episode comes from modern home brand CB2. I don't think we've ever collectively felt the same intense level of wanderlust that we're all experiencing right now. And if you've got the travel bug to then CBD, new outdoor furniture collection might just do the trick.

From striped umbrellas to teak lounge chairs, the collection has everything you need to create your own luxurious oasis no matter the size of your space. Is it CBSNews.com to shop the collection and save on outdoor furniture while the sale is still hot?

Welcome to In Her Shoes, I'm Stella Begbie, editor at large at New York magazine. On this podcast, we talk to ambitious women about how they've come this far and where they're going next. Today's guest, Lindsey People's Vikner, is the new editor in chief of The Cut. Her resume is impressive, youngest editor in chief of a Conde Nast magazine, and she had a Teen Vogue in twenty eighteen, author of the explosive twenty eighteen piece on the cut Everywhere and Nowhere.

What it's really like to be black and work in fashion. She's an ASMI next winner and a Forbes 30 under 30 recipient. Last year she founded the Black and Fashion Council, the San Jean Charles, a nonprofit dedicated to holding the fashion industry accountable for change.

We spoke about her career trajectory, faith and what she hopes to bring to the cut. I'm excited for you to listen. Hi, Lindsey. Hi. Thanks for coming on in her shoes and the podcast and.

It's really cool to be interviewing you in this new role as editor in chief of The Cut, and it's the real right. It's weird, right? It's cool. It's really cool for for background. For people who don't know. I was the editor in chief of The Cut. Now, Lindsay is the editor in chief of The Cut. And we wanted to do this episode of In Her Shoes specifically as a kind of way to introduce listeners to Lindsay and get a sense of what how she lives her life as a new nation.

And, you know, like on this show, we talk a little bit about management style and philosophy and also just work life balance.

And so I'm going to start off by asking Lindsay how it has been to start a new job when you can't meet anybody in person.

I knew you were going to start out with a very large question.

Yeah, I mean, starting a job over resume is really hard. And I think, you know, just where everyone is at in life, their mental health, their family, it's just every everything has changed. And so I think I've spent just a lot of time. Thinking about how I can be more grateful and self aware of my own life and then also just having empathy for people, because I just think it's been. I don't know, it's just been hard for a million different reasons.

I mean, this is the longest I've ever gone without seeing my family in my entire life. And so I think it's just been a journey for everyone. And I think I've been trying to keep that in mind and starting a new job and having conversations with people over time that would usually be in person and I think usually be in a different headspace.

For listeners who aren't totally familiar with you, you're only 30. You're at the helm of a major media brand, you just came from another major media brand, Teen Vogue. So tell us a little bit about that trajectory from maybe even from the beginning, like internships and all the way up.

Yeah, I mean, hindsight is always 20/20, but I don't the journey has been tumultuous in my world. It's really, I think, interesting. Yes. But I think it's just been a roller coaster of a lot of different things. I didn't know what I wanted to do in college. I spent a lot of time just like liking being creative, but I didn't really connect the dots. And a lot of my childhood was spent like with my grandmother.

I would we would make quilts and pillows and rugs and I would draw a lot that I didn't ever think that it was going to be something that I would be able to make into a career. I remember my biggest aspiration I've always done a lot was like maybe one day I own a boutique in Wisconsin. Like, that's the big goal. And I was like part time working at Payless. Like that was like the pinnacle for me. I went to a smaller liberal arts school and I fought my parents on it because I had applied to all these bigger schools.

And my parents were like, you're not ready. Like you don't know what you want to do. You're not about to waste our money or our time. And they were I my mom sat me down and she was like, I just think you need to be at a place that is going to give you a little bit more attention on, like, what you really want to do. And I don't think you're going to get that. If you go to one of these big schools, you're just going to end up getting a degree and not actually think about like what is my purpose in life.

And so I just ended up choosing a school that I had gone to on a college tour that I wasn't even really passionate about. But I just I don't know. It was weird. I went there and I liked the people. And so I was like, OK, I'll choose a school a little closer to home. That's where I ended up going. And it was a school in the middle of Iowa surrounded by cornfields. And I just got really, really blessed with two professors who took the time.

To spend on me, and they were just really invested in me, invested in trying to figure out what I wanted to do, and one of my professors was the one who saw a post about a Teen Vogue internship. And she was like, I think this is what you need to try. And I think you really you really just have a voice and there's something inside of you that I think you need to figure out. And I remember telling her I was like, I'm not going to get this.

Like, I loved the hills, I loved girlfriends, I love Sex and City. But I was like, they don't know who I am. I'm literally in the Midwest, like the Midwest is this UGS? It's not like Chanel. And so I think that for me it just felt very far off. But I happened to get that internship and from there I was hooked and I just started doing a lot of different internships. I went to L.A. one summer because I thought I wanted to do celebrity cycling, which I do not want to do.

I went overseas and studied abroad because I was like, maybe I want to work at a design house, do not want to do that. And so when I graduated, I mean, I didn't have a job when I graduated, which was also a weird thing. Everybody at school was like, oh, I got a job at this bank or I got a job doing this. And I remember telling my sister I was like, oh, I'm such a loser like that.

I don't know what I'm going to do. And.

My sister and I are very similar, but she is way more, I think, just type A, the niece, when she left school, she had a six figure job offer, like she was like on it. And I was like, I have no money, no job. This is crazy. I ended up just emailing a bunch of different people that I had interned with. And a couple months later, somebody from Teen Vogue had reached out and was like, oh, yeah, like we have a freelance job over in the closet, nine dollars an hour.

I was like, great, take it. And I think the biggest hurdle that first couple of years was just I wanted to be in fashion so bad, but I had to work three jobs. I was just too broke. And I just felt like every, you know, everything we do is subjective of like who's cool, who's worthy, who's on brand, like all of these things. And all I could afford was some Zarah and some gap.

And I just felt like I'm never going to be good enough for these people because I don't have the money to sustain the image around it. And it was just really exhausting. Like I would go to Teen Vogue during the day. I would freelance for shoes at night or change mannequins at the discount store. I do a lot of I didn't think or like copywriting stuff at night on the weekends. I always waitressed because I made good tips for brunch.

Everybody gets drunk and pays you well. So that was what I did for a long time. And I just felt like, don't I just feel like it was too exhausting to keep up. And so I remember talking to a couple of people about going to style dotcom, and I just was like, I just don't want to be pigeonholed into, like, being in his closet or trying to be a stylist. I can't be broke for the rest of my life.

And my parents are really supportive, like I never wanted for anything in my childhood or anything. It's just like when you come to New York, the idea of wealth is so crazy, different than what it is in other places, that it was just this huge gap of like I've never been in a situation where I felt like I didn't have what I needed to to excel or to succeed. And so I went to South Dotcom because I was like, I just think I need to give some different skills, like I can't keep doing this and I wanted to write more and do stuff like that.

So I went there. I had an amazing boss, Rachael Wang, who's a good friend. And that was a really. I think pivotal situation for me, because she was a huge mentor for me of where I wanted to go in the industry and how I wanted to kind of craft my voice. And she was the one who actually told me about the job at the cut. And she was the one who I think disconnected a lot of dots for me around that.

So you've now mentioned you've had like two to two professors and one really pivotal boss who redirected you are invested in you. Was that.

How did that shape your idea of being a boss? Actually, like now that you've had those two experiences and it sounds like you knew yourself well enough to to know that you needed a smaller environment and somebody to be invested in you, are those lessons that you're going to take forward now?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think. Paying it forward because the people have really spent so much time, I think, investing in me and I'm always really blown away by that because I always felt like. Why are people even bothering, like, I'm not going to have anything in this industry and I really felt I always feel that sense of gratitude around that because I felt like just the odds were stacked against me. And even with Rachel, I think one of the biggest things she taught me was like, when is your time for something?

It will be your time. And it doesn't have to happen in the time that you think. But also just because someone says no to you doesn't mean necessarily that you'll never get past or move to a different situation. I was working for her probably for six months and shopping like market role came up that was like specific to income and different things. And I was like, oh my God, I'm so broke. Like, I really hope that she promotes me.

I really need this job. And I remember I took the call in the closet and I was crying to her because she was she was like, I can't give you this job, but honestly, I'm not giving you this job because I think that you need to be doing other things. And I think you really need to be like doing your own shoots or like writing bigger features. Like, I just don't think this job is for you and you're going to get stuck just like writing shopping stuff.

And I don't really think you should be doing that. And so she was like, I honestly like I think you should say, I will help you. I will mentor you. But I don't think this is the right thing. And there's someone else that I think is better for this role at this point.

How how was that to hear that? Was that painful? Oh, I cried on the phone.

I was crushed also because I was just really broke and I was like, I need insurance. Like, I can't keep living this life. So that was also why. But I, I don't know. I remember I called my parents and they're like, look like, we'll help you if you need to. If you need to move situations like if you want to come back home, you can always come back home. And that was always in the back of my mind, like, should I go back to Wisconsin or not?

And I decided to stay and I decided to just stay underneath her. And she was the one. I know that also changed my idea of what mentorship was, because I always thought mentorship was like somebody that you would maybe just come to is like, hey, I'm applying for the job, help me get it. Like, help me, help me. And not necessarily yes person. But I just had it differently in my mind. And I think her becoming my mentor and saying no just flipped a lot for me of like, oh, wait.

Like she was she was right. And that's just as helpful. Even more helpful, I think. And yeah. I mean, she was the one who then came to me one day and was like, hey, I heard about this job. And like, I think this is actually the right role for you and we'll give you, like, the growth that you need. OK, close your eyes and just imagine you're at an Italian villa tucked along the Amalfi Coast, sunny day, no clouds, gorgeous cobblestone terrace, the most lounge table shows an ice bucket full of rosé.

That daydream is extremely far out of reach lately, but now CBS News new outdoor collection can help you create your very own oasis, maybe in your backyard or the local park. They've perfected the vibe right down to the very last detail. Think black and white striped umbrellas, teak lounge chairs, terraza dining tables, terracotta planters and sofas with versatile layouts that work with any size space, plus the weather resistant materials and finishes used throughout the collection. Keep your new outdoor furniture beautiful for seasons to come.

I may not be able to step off a plane in the south of France just yet, but maybe I can go to a friend's backyard and with the help of Civita I can still feel like I've just arrived in paradise. Visit CB2 Dotcom to shop the entire collection and save on outdoor furniture while the sale is still hot. If you are having trouble meeting your goals or focusing at work or if you're feeling stressed and having trouble sleeping, better help is here for you.

It's not a self-help class. It's not a crisis line. Better help is secure online professional counseling with licensed therapists who have the tools to help you feel better. Just fill out a questionnaire about how you're doing and better help will match you with your own licensed therapist in under 48 hours. No more awkward therapist waiting rooms, no more limitations on the type of experts in your area and in between weekly appointments. If you need more guidance, you can send free unlimited messages to your counselor.

He'll get back to you with timely, thoughtful answers. Plus, if the math with your therapist just doesn't feel right. Better help will help you find a new one for free. Better help is a more affordable option than traditional therapy and financial aid is available.

This podcast is sponsored by Better Help and listeners of the Cut get 10 percent off their first month at better help dotcom that get started today at better health outcomes that cut better help dotcom slash that cut to join over one million people who have taken charge of their mental health with the help of an experienced, better health professional. And so when you and I work together, I've said this publicly, I'll say it again, it was very, very obvious to me right away that.

You had a sense for what you wanted to do way beyond the role that you had originally come in to do, which was more of a market fashion role, and you wasted very little time, you know, coming into my office and saying, like, this is this is what we should be doing. And this is what I would like to do. And these are the people I'd like to cover, you know. And I was I was very excited about that.

What gave you the confidence to do that? And were there people you were talking to outside of our organization or who beyond just the obviously the community of the cut was very, very open and kind of flat. But not everybody marched into my office and said, like, I'd like to do this.

You know, honestly, I just felt comfortable enough to talk. It wasn't like anyone I was talking to about it in the office or outside of the office. I just felt comfortable enough to come to you and say, I want to do more and I have the hunger to do more. And I also just feel like because I've had such a desperation of I have to make it like I have to, I have to be better than the people that have come before me.

I have to do this just made has always made me, I think, a lot more ambitious than other people and. I know it's weird because now, like when I've when I've had conversations with people that I used to work with or whatever, I realize I may have come off as, like, annoying to some people. But I wasn't trying to be like I sincerely. Felt like if I'm going to do this, if I'm going to be busting my ass like I need to be making great work and talk to me a little bit more about that idea of I need to be better than the people that came before.

I need to. I think that your work is infused with. A deep sense of mission. Can you elaborate a little bit about that so that people who aren't familiar with it have an idea of what you mean?

Yeah, I think. It's always been when I decided to be in fashion, I just. Now, remember, a lot of moments of wanting so badly to be seen in covers, in movies and television, in a lot of different ways, I think a lot of when we see even like covers of magazines, I remember putting all of them up on my wall and. My mother having a lot of conversations with me about idolizing a lot of these people who didn't really have a connection with who I was, and even if magazines did put a woman of color or specifically a black woman on the cover, it was like the same cycle of Beyonce, Rihanna, Viola Davis, etc.

and. I just felt like, you know, if I'm going to have to do all of this and I really want to be in this industry, I have to change it. And that was a conversation that my mom had with me very early on. Like, nobody in my family is doing anything creative, but. They always had really frank conversations with me about my purpose and intention and. My family means the world to me, and I think knowing that they have worked so hard to make a life for me really pushed me to make sure that I used this gift, this life responsibly, responsibly.

And I think about that a lot. I mean, my I was really close with both of my grandmothers who are no longer alive. And my grandmother down south passed last year. And my grandmother, my mom's mom, she passed when I was in college. And both of them just. Worked so hard and I always felt like I have to honor that, like I have to push beyond what I think I'm even capable of doing. My grandmother that I spent a lot of time with in Wisconsin, she worked at a steel factory, but she was like incredibly into fashion.

Obviously, most black people who grew up in church, you're into the idea of Sunday best and she would just dress like crazy good. She would take me to all these different places to make her clothes. And I don't know, I just felt like these people have have done so much for me. Like I have to honor them with what I'm doing and push past when I want to go home or when I feel like this is crazy to work all these jobs that I'm still broke and have a negative account.

So that's honestly where a lot of it is coming from.

And how do you balance that ambition that you have and the drive that you have with other people? And there needs to.

You know, self regulate in terms of like this is something I often grapple with as a as a worker, just, you know, I'm I feel very driven and it's sometimes hard for me to recognize other people's boundaries in in the same way that, you know, I'm so excited and I want everybody to be so excited.

But everybody's coming at things from a different perspective. And now that you're kind of leading and you now lead to big things. How do you balance that? Yeah, that's hard, I mean, I I'm always going to be the I always feel like I and I said to so many people, like, it's fine for me to be the most ambitious person in the room because I'm always going to have the really big idea that it's going to make the project way more annoying and time consuming.

But I try honestly not to just bulldoze my opinion. I think that's been the big thing and let people say kind of what they want to do and also ask people like, do you feel like this is possible with your bandwidth and where you are right now? And that was a lesson I really had to learn when I started meeting people, because I would just have all these, like, huge ideas that were great ideas. But it's like, what can people actually accomplish?

What can people actually do? And obviously, you want to push people as a manager, but you also don't want to invade their own personal boundaries. And obviously, you know, everybody has a life and other things going on. And so I think it's been me kind of waiting to say what I want to do, but also then checking in with people about like, how do you feel about that with your bandwidth and where you're at with all these other stories and things you're working on, how do you check your own ambitions sometimes?

How do you how do you reconcile with checking yourself against the organization or the, you know, the confines in what you're working?

I mean, I go to therapy every week consistently. What I do, I feel like that's something that comes up all the time on these interviews.

I'm like, you know, curious about how people balance the mental health aspect of it.

I think it's two things for me, I'm a person of faith, and I think that faith really does an incredible job of grounding you and making you realize. It just made me a lot more intentional and to not seek validation from very fickle things and that validation I think come from inside, but combined with therapy. Yeah, I think therapy has been great because as a manager, I think it can be hard to not project your own things on other people in conversations.

And so I've made sure to go every week, even though I sometimes don't feel like it. Or maybe I feel like I don't have anything to say just to make sure that when I'm having conversations with people that I'm not. Projecting like things that I haven't worked through or another conversation I had with a friend or another conversation I have with a different employee, whatever it is, because I feel like I can just be a little bit more clear and direct with people when I'm on a good routine with that.

What do you want our listeners knew to you to know about you and your plans for the cut? Oh, that's a good question. I think, you know, I mean, the cut is iconic and everyone knows that.

And I think we're just trying to figure out, I think, what this next era is going to be. And I think for me, it is bringing on a lot of different voices and contributors and I think making work that I think you would be really proud of and that I'm really proud of.

And so that's all I'm really trying to do. And I mean, I it's funny. I do think a lot of times people I have this internal pressure of like, I need to be excellent. But I also think as a woman of color, you often feel like you just have to be better than other people and excel past what other people think you can do. And so I always try to ask people for patience, because I think also when people see me, they're like night and day, this is going to happen.

This is going to happen. And it's a little stressful for people to have such high expectations for me to, I think, change everything, because I am also the person that people come to about, you know, injustice issues in the industry or, you know, hey, I'm trying to figure this out and to make this business more inclusive. And so it's not just one thing. And so I think that pressure can feel like a lot and I think a little patience would be nice.

Yeah.

So you launched this very explosive story in the pages of New York magazine at the court about being black in fashion, which I think no one would argue blew open a conversation that needed to be had and that you and I had been talking about for a long time. And like and it just changed your life. It changed. I think the whole conversation in the industry and then so we can talk a little bit about that. But also, you took that moment and you built on it.

And I think you started a nonprofit, the Black and Fashion Council. So tell us a little bit about the impetus behind that story, the opportunities that came from it and how you kind of capitalized on those.

Yeah, I mean, I, I just remember having the conversations with you really early on of like I really want to do something about the fact that people aren't, I think, feeling included in these different spaces and. The timing of things is always so perfect in hindsight, because I remember when I came to you with the idea we talked about it, you were like, yeah, I don't think it's ready. Like, I don't think it's the right time.

And you were so right. And when it finally was time to do it, it was the industry was so different because I think people were finally actually ready to have a lot of the conversations, which I think is is a key part of this, because the idea of diversity in history isn't new. But I think people being just receptive and finally accepting that there is a problem I think has has been a big shift. And so also just the fact that when a lot of people have written about the lack of inclusiveness in fashion, a lot of it has been rooted in narratives from assistants or interns, which then kind of just gotten written off because it's like, well, you're young, you're only complaining because you're young and you're starting out.

Whereas like by the time I had actually written the piece, there were a lot more senior level people in the industry that were people of color that were saying, like, this is still a problem for us. And so I think that conversation really made it a bigger deal because it was like, well, if you've been in the industry for decades and you're still dealing with all these issues, what hope is there for younger people of color to want to be in the industry?

And like, why should any of us day? And I mean, yeah, I mean, that piece just changed so much in my life because I think. It just gave me a sense of conviction that I didn't have before and I remember talking to you about this is like there were a lot of people of color who told me not to write it and to not to do the piece.

And I was going to say it was it was I remember that summer when we were having the initial conversations about it and you were starting to interview people and running into a lot of fear and resistance. And I think generally. Fear about what an article like that might do to someone's career or to the people participating in its career, and then as people started to come on the record and that started to get other people to come on the record, it was very exciting to watch you start to have these more really intense conversations.

I mean, I remember talking to you one day afterward. You came into my office. You were like these these conversations are a lot. It's like I'm almost like I'm having to be a therapist. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Definitely felt like therapy. But I was I was really scared. But it also gave me conviction at the same time, which I never really thought about before the piece. And I just remember, like, you know, people that I really admired telling me that I was going to be blacklisted and then I would never have a job. And that wasn't something for me to take lightly because I was like, OK, does that mean I'm going to have to go back to waitressing after this?

Like, that was actually really detrimental to to my mental health. And I think I mean, I remember when the piece came out, my husband and I, we were in Mexico. I wasn't even here because I was so scared. And I was like, I just need to go because I don't know if people are going to say, I think I don't know what people are going to feel about this. And I put my blood, sweat and tears into this.

But like, this can just go wrong. And I mean, it obviously ended up being well received. But I just remember it gave me this weird sense of like. Calm and peace that I honestly had only felt like before that the day of my wedding, which was like this weird sense of of calm that. Even if this like I just remember thinking to myself, like even if this is the last piece that I do, I'm really proud of this piece.

So I have I remember I had my phone off most of the day and then I turned my phone on because I was like, I don't even really need I don't think I need to hear other people and their opinions about this.

And when I turned it on, I just text messages from you and I looked on Instagram and I was like, oh, shit, you had text messages from me that day.

I don't remember. Where were they? I know they were they were you were just like, oh my gosh. Like everybody like do you see all these people are talking about it? And then and then I was like, oh, OK, let me look on Instagram, you know, when you're like scared about something and then you don't you do like should I go on social media or not? Because I don't know if you're saying about it.

I do know that. Yes. So you're your text was the the good guard for me. I was like, OK, it's safe to come outside.

Yeah. Yeah. I remember being very, very nervous in general around that whole piece. Yeah.

And I also I also knew that you publishing that piece meant I was going to lose you as a collaborator because I knew, I knew, I knew that it was going to be the of such a major piece. And I think I was less scared that it would put your career to an end. I was more scared that it meant that someone was going to poach you immediately.

And that's how I remember you came to my office and you're like you're like, I have to talk to you. And I was like, oh, God, I already know. What is it going to be offering you a job, you know? And it was immediate, right? It was very, very soon afterward. Yeah.

But it never crossed my mind that that was even a possibility.

And I remember at that point in my life, I just kept being like, OK, by thirty five, I have to be a fashion director.

I have to make that happen. That was my biggest aspiration at that time. So it honestly did not occur to me. And in my mind I was like, I'll just stay here until one day I can get promoted. That was not even in my mind.

But yeah, I mean, isn't that funny how we have these expectations for ourselves and we put dates on them in our minds and then life just intervenes and we have to completely readjust. Our whole sense of our expectations for ourselves. Oh, yeah, I was I was not prepared, didn't have the thought. Like I didn't even I literally didn't even dream about it because I just was like, this is the furthest that I'm going to go. So I just need to try to like to do my mantra of I'm going to be a fashion director.

And that's all that I cared about. So it was yeah, it was it was very, very strange. But I mean, the Teen Vogue opportunity came and it felt like the weirdest serendipity and obviously a really great opportunity. And what was that opportunity that was to be was taught us to be to be editor in chief of Teen Vogue, where I started out interning and worked at straight out from college. So, I mean, that was. It just wasn't something that had ever occurred to me was even an opportunity and I think for a lot of different reasons, but I mean, mainly because at that point I really knew, like, this is who I am in this industry and I don't.

And I think it's going to be really hard to be able to get a job being this kind of person, because I was very adamant about I'm not going to code switch or I'm not going to assimilate, I'm not going to change who I am for this industry. And it wasn't like it wasn't coming from a sense of like resentment or anger towards the industry. It is really, to me, felt like if we're all going to say that we care about diversity and inclusiveness and equity, then I should be able to be who I am.

What's an example of a moment where you felt somebody might have asked you to code switch, but you said, no, I'm not doing that. Every black woman that I've encountered in fashion has had someone like say something about their hair or feel like their hair was just it's just such a loaded topic for every black woman. But I think even something as simple as like I remember I was in pre pandemic. I was in the elevator with the with a black senior leader, and I was like playing some music on my phone.

And then, like, he had some he had some of it on his own or whatever. And so another executive came into the elevator and he quickly turned it off and was like, turn off, turn off.

And I was like, no, why? I mean, first of all, trap music is great. If you don't like rap music, that's fine. But trust me, this is great and I'm not going to apologize for listening to it. But also, I think, you know, there's this idea of when you get to a certain level that you can't. Like certain things, a part of culture, we're like, you know, that you can only really talk about prestigious things.

And I just feel like that pressure is constantly put on people of color, whereas I don't feel like I need to change my language or who I am to be excellent at being an editor. And after the article came out, when you started the Black and Fashion Council, how did that come together? It's a non-profit. Non-profit, yeah.

And basically we well, it's non-profit and there's an LLC division as well, which is only complicated in terminology. But just because people have also just come to us for it really started out as a small idea, which. Again, I don't know I don't know why I thought that, but at the time I was like we basically started to have conversations. We as my co-founders, Andrew and Charles, she has our own PR firm and basically all the people that were in the black and fashion article.

We started to have Zoom's and we started to just have these massive Zoom's with hundreds of people of color in the industry talking about, OK, George Flurry's has been murdered, Brianna Taylor's been murdered. We all have a platform. What are we going to do? And I had I remember I had gone for a job interview and a person had told me, you know, I think that you're great, but you're too Malcolm X. And it's really stuck with me because I don't actually don't find this offensive.

It's really stuck with me because I think that it's important for me to always use this platform, use this gift to make it better for other people of color. And we just started talking about what would be possible, because with the article, we've had all these conversations. And for me, it's like I need to be a leader and help other people of color. But how do I be a leader if we're not holding people accountable? Because I can help people all I want.

But like, if they're not actually put in positions of success and actually put in a place that understands what an equitable work environment is, this is not actually not going to get better. And so it really was about taking that to the next level. And we decided to partner with the Human Rights Campaign and create a corporate equality index on racial and ethnic exclusivity in fashion and beauty spaces, which has never been done before. And I just felt like it was really necessary to not not come from a place of council culture, because I don't feel like it's productive, not come from this place of saying, like, you're doing this wrong, you get a 20 percent whatever, but actually giving people the tools and resources to say, OK, so like, here's how I actually need to make sure that these policies are being put into practice.

Here's how I need to challenge how we define who someone that is worthy of gifting cover, platform opportunity, all of that. And I'm really proud of the work that we've been able to do, the opportunities we've been able to give to people of color. And it just turned into a lot bigger thing because at first it was 20 companies. And then we had companies starting to come to us about consulting things, which is obviously that's not nonprofit, or we need help of figuring out an opportunity for young designers.

So we were able to partner with IMG this past couple of seasons and they basically let us create a space for 10 designers here in New York and five in L.A. And it's I don't know, it's it's the best kind of work to do because, yeah, they get picked up at Browns and picked up at different stores and like, actually get a shot in the industry that they haven't been able to before. And so it's it's interesting because the question that people usually ask me is like, why did you choose to do it?

But it's like I don't really it hasn't ever been a conscious decision. It's just no one else is doing it. And I feel a sense of responsibility so that I end up doing something that's awesome. And thank you for joining us, Anand. I'm so personally excited to see what you do with this project, and I'm so excited for the listeners to get to know you and thank you for coming on. Thank you for having me. That was like.

In Her Shoes is edited and produced by Camila Salazar, our lead producer is Jasmine Aguilera and Shakira and Stella Begbie. That's me are our executive producers. The cut is made possible by the excellent team at New York magazine. Subscribe today to support their work at the cut dotcom slash subscribe. I'm Stella Begbie, thanks for listening. Just because our dinner parties are outdoors these days doesn't mean we have to sacrifice good design. CBC's new outdoor collection has everything the host and you could ever want, from gorgeous teak tables to statement chairs and fun pops of color.

Their selection also lends itself to a variety of layouts, no matter what size space you're working with, plus the weather resistant materials and finishes. We'll keep your new outdoor furniture looking gorgeous year after year while we wait for the vaccines to keep rolling out. Take a seat and raise a glass.

Some are safely and in style with CB2 to visit CBSNews.com to shop the collection and save on outdoor furniture while the sale is still hot.