Hey, it's Michael. First, a very happy Thanksgiving to you from everyone here at The Daily. In addition to all of our listeners, one of the things we're very grateful for here at the Daily is our colleagues at the Times, across the newsroom and across the audio department. And so this holiday weekend, we're going to be sharing a couple of episodes from other shows here at the Times. Today we're going to hand things over to our colleagues at The Runup, a weekly show about politics hosted by Asted Herndon, who brings us a very special and a very personal Thanksgiving episode. Take a listen.

Not to pick favorites, but Thanksgiving has always been my favorite holiday. So when I thought about the show this week, there was only one place I knew it could.

Be.

Well, this is Elisa. This is Anna.

These are producers on The Run Up.

And we're so excited to meet you.

Come on in.

I wanted to come home with my colleagues and microphones in tow to do the one thing you're not traditionally supposed to do on Thanksgiving talk politics at the dinner table. Specifically, I wanted to ask my family and friends about one political question that's recently been all over the news the changing relationship between black voters and the Democratic Party. The numbers are staggering. In a new poll of battleground states from Sienna College and the New York Times, 22% of black voters said they would support Donald Trump over Joe Biden in a hypothetical rematch in 2024. That's compared to the 8% Trump carried nationally in 2020. Now, it's just one poll, but it comes after the 2022 midterms, where black turnout was one of the Democrats weakest points. And anecdotally it tracks with what I see in my own life as black people I grew up with, especially younger black people. And black men feel less and less tied to the Democratic Party. Some are more open to voting for Republicans or not voting at all. So I decided to conduct a little focus group.

Hi, everyone.

With a group of black voters, I know very well. What's the food?

Well, the food is turkey. We have mother chicken, which is a traditional kind of a thing, smothered chicken with mashed potatoes.

My mom and sisters prepared a feast.

And we also have a beef roast. Low key, very low key.

Yeah, just a little something slight, just a little turkey. And a homemade dessert buffet for my sister Angelica.

Now, I could take the pound cake and I can the ginger molasses. I'm curious that you have your eye on that. Yes.

Let's pray for the food. Lord, we thank you. Must my father bless the food? Thank you, Lord, for estead. The run up. Thank you for all of the family friends who are here tonight. I pray you'll bless the food. Sanctify a purifier for the nourishment of our bodies. You turn the night over to me and keep them in Jesus name amen.

Amen.

To play a role I was familiar with. Yes, a reporter, but also the family instigator to ask a question that no one poll can answer. Are black voters really souring on democrats? And if so, why? From the New York Times. I'm Ested Herndon. This is the run up.

We do a traditional thanks here at Thanksgiving. We're grateful to God for another year. And I want to take two minutes, and you could just shout out one word or one sentence of what you're thankful for, because I know everybody in this room this year, something has occurred in your lives that you are thankful for. So I'm going to start us off, and I'm going to take the generic one. I'm thankful for life thankful for life. Thankful that I am seeing another year.

About 30 people showed up to this dinner.

I'm thankful to be 70.

Some friends, family, and people I've known forever through my dad's church.

I'm thankful for growth growing and expanding. I'm thankful for my right mind.

I grew up in the southwest suburbs of Chicago in a town called flossmore, around a lot of black families that were pretty similar to my own.

I'm thankful for life, health, strength, all of the above.

Middle class, college educated parents, black people who had left the city in search of something better. And not too far from my house, my dad started a church, hallelujah Temple.

I got one. I'm thankful for peace it's a smaller.

Congregation that's much less uniform in terms of class and education, but it was always politically active, and it's where I learned to talk about politics and ask questions about what people believe and why. I'm thankful to see everybody here. It's really amazing to see this collection of people, and it really matters to me that you all are represented in what we're doing about the election, because this is a show that's about giving dignity to people, and I think that's a value that you all taught me. So thank you. Most of the people here have been voting for democrats their entire lives, and some people remember a time when black people couldn't vote at all, so I hope they could put this political moment in its necessary perspective. So as folks grabbed their dinner, I sat down at the dining room table.

That roast kind of melting your mouth, too, though.

My plan was to divide people into groups that corresponded with divisions that we saw within the poll. I started with the group of older black folks, people who represent a demographic that helped put Biden into office and that has largely stuck by him. So while these folks are historically reliable democratic voters, I thought they could still help us provide important context to what's been happening that's led to this point. Would you all consider yourselves democrats?

Yes, I do.

Why do you think black people have voted for democrats in historically such high numbers?

Well, I think one reason it seems like, and this is only my opinion when you look at the Republican, it seems like they were in such a different bracket than what we were in financially. Seemed like they were always on the top. And Democrat doesn't mean that we're on the bottom, though. But they just seem like they always seem so much higher than the Democrat.

It seemed like Republicans care more about.

Richer people and they are more concerned about staying rich. And we stand where we know. It doesn't seem like they ever want us to get to the plateau that we meet where they're at.

I think also in the Democratic Party, they have opened their arms to the point where made black folk feel that it's all inclusion. Although we might not agree with everything that the Democratic Party stand for. They don't discriminate against homosexuals or if you're poor, if you do have money, it's more of a social thing. Whereas when you talk about the Republican parties, it's about self. And so it's like, how much more can I get? It was the have and have nots. And so with Democrats, it was a know, I think about Jesse Jackson keep over know. And so the Democratic Party has always been, for black folk, the possibility of.

Doing something, if you will, for you. Like when you think about your time as a Democrat, what's the times the party has made you the most proud?

Obama. And I think we all pull together. That was the time that you really saw all of us as a race pull together to get him.

And we should be clear, like, we're in Chicago. I mean, this was a place where it was specifically happening. What did it feel like in 2008 when that was happening? Do you remember how it felt for you?

It was like we were in control. We had power. And when we go back to the civil rights movement, then we saw like a fulfillment of all they had worked for. Yes, all they had worked for.

I remember you and I being the only ones at the church that thought, he can win.

Put that on the record. I was right early.

I can remember you and I arguing with your parents because it's not going to happen.

It's not going to happen.

We were the only two saying up, he's going to win. He's going to win. And so I had to put that out there on the record.

I appreciate that, brother Reggie, I believe.

He was going to win. I mean, because everybody was pulling everybody to go to the poll. This was the biggest turnout that we have ever. They said they were taking people off the street. You got to go vote.

I'm wondering, with Trump's election and the four years that came after that, did it cause you to think differently about the Obama years before that, or were those separate events? I think it was separate in 2016. One of the reasons it did happen is because you saw a big drop off in some black turnout from 2012 to 2016, even the last recent midterms. One of the low points for the Democrats, and what was otherwise a pretty good year, was that black people don't seem to have the same relationship with the Democratic Party. Do you think the relationship between black people and Democrats are changing, or as Democrats, do you think maybe that's just one cycle or another, but this is a kind of connection that will last?

I think it's about the generation that's doing the voting or not voting. And then you have to remember we were there, most of us, during the we were there watching all about the marches and everything, and they don't really know about that. It's not being taught in school.

You think this drop off in Democrats might be a generational thing?

Yes.

If there was an issue that matters to you that you want Democrats to deliver on, what is it?

Well, you have, of course, the economy, which they're looking out for, and you have crime.

Do you feel like they're looking out for that?

Well, I think that's the frustration. Most of them, they advocate for these particular issues, but the problem is you just don't see much of any change, any results. So that's what turns off a lot of people from politics. They just give up because even though they vote, it seems like their vote is not making a difference. So that's the struggle there. So sometimes it's about pushing your agenda, letting people know what you're doing because you have another voice on the other side. Basically they're screaming, saying the Democrats are not doing anything. And they scream real loud. And of course, the louder they scream, that's the voice we hear. And ultimately, a lot of people believe that. So the Democrats really have to do a better job of basically vocalizing what they're doing, showing the results. But to answer your question, yes, I believe they're making an effort. But everybody at this table knows it's almost impossible to get anything done in Congress. And that's where the fight is. And that's what it is, basically a fight. And if you don't have the patience to endure the fight, you give up. But I think we have to encourage you talk about generation, encourage the next generation to stay in the fight.

One of the things that comes up as we talk to people is they feel less and less interested in politics. Do you feel people backing away from the fight? It does feel like some of that is in the air.

I won't call names, but you talk to certain young people and they didn't even vote. I say, how do you not vote in the presidential election?

I'm an election judge, and I've been one for years, and I could physically see where the turnout was like, null and void. And that was both for young people and the older people. They were not coming out to vote.

Yeah. A question I had was, do you feel proud to be a Democrat? Do you feel proud to be an American? You're a vet. Come on.

I've been all over the world, man. I can tell you that's the best thing going American. Is everything great here? No. Could things be better? Yes. The seniors, they price gouging on the medicine and the richer getting richer. It's like, how much money do you need? Do I feel proud to be a Democrat? I wish I can be an Independent, but we really don't have representation in this region with independence, so I have to go other. I could never be a Republican, especially now, because of anybody that supported Trump and all the foolishness. And it's no matter what your message is, like, even everybody on a ticket right now that's running, you all supported him and he lied openly and you believed a lie and you supported him and you backed him. So for me, you could never get anything from me because of that. And so I can't say I'm not going to say lesser two evils, but I will not because the people died. For me to have this right, I have to know. And so Democrat is the closest I can go.

Right.

Y'all, thank you so much. We're going to talk to some more folks, but I really appreciate it. What they're getting at a sense that younger black voters have been turning away from Biden and the Democrats that's supported in the data in that New York Times Sienna poll, biden's support among nonwhite voters under 45 plummeted a group that he carried by nearly 40 points in 2020. He now led by just six. This erosion is one of the biggest reasons Biden's numbers look so bad right now, and it's giving hope to Republicans that they can win a greater share of black voters in 2024. So just as people were going back.

For seconds I know a stead from school, I guess I know a stead from the church, but it's like family.

Kind of grew up together. His father is one of my mentors. Yes, sir.

I gathered a group of younger black people at the same dining room table. Would you all consider yourselves Democrats? Yes. Have you always considered yourself Democrats?

Yes.

I'll ask this question, the same question I asked the kind of an older generation before, y'all. Why do you think black people vote in such numbers for the Democratic Party? It's unique, like, among demographic groups in America, nobody votes for one party in this big of a number. Why do you think black people vote for Democrats so consistently?

What you're taught kind of within your family that this is what you are and so you don't go any way different from it. So you're like, my mom was a Democrat, so I'm going to be that without really looking into the facts and finding out for yourself what you really want to be. I do agree with Danielle. This is like the household is Democrat, but also there's a thought that black people are not Republicans. It's just the bottom line. And Republicans are for the rich people. And you have all those tags along with being a Republican, and it's all about money and not service. This came up in the last one.

Too, and I thought it was really interesting because sometimes you see black folks say, I think people vote for Democrats because Republicans are racist, but that's not what the explanation you gave or the people last time it was that it's there for rich people. You think it's much more of a class thing than it yeah, it's beneficial.

To the higher class, those with more money.

I think the Democratic Party focuses more on our interests, the right to the Constitution, because we didn't always have rights. So the Democratic Party seems to focus more with our interests. You're saying there's an understanding that black people can lose rights. And there's something about the Democrats that seem like they're at least safeguarding some of them. And I think this is a thing I specifically wanted to focus on with this group. Then the last one. We really talked about kind of the arc of kind of civil rights movement through Obama and kind of how they feel, that sense of pride. I kind of want to think about like, post Obama and how has that been in terms of shifting a relationship or has it shifted any relationship with Democrats? I think about that high point of 2008, the hope for younger folks, especially. Do you all still feel like that?

I know I've been let down by Obama. Do you hear me? I've been heavily why? I feel as though he could have did more for us. I feel as though specifically Chicagoans, that's where he come from. After seeing Trump and all that he did it's like, man, Obama, you could.

Have did the same thing.

You could have been rogue too, before your people. And the fact that he did not do it or even spoke towards doing it was disheartening. And it affected a lot of the mentees that I got trying to push them to vote, to even vote anymore. Like the young people that I'm trying to push to start back voting was upset at the movement of Obama, so they stopped voting altogether. They lost faith in the political system.

There is a kind of unspoken thing about Obama era. I think it's kind of especially true in Chicago that it wasn't meeting some of expectations, but it's especially spoken in this group and it's not spoken in the last group. Right. They speak about just the dignity of him in office, about the power of having a black family in that place. What I hear differently from younger people is, okay, what else? And that's not what I hear from you. What is the else? Democrats talk about blackness a lot more. They talk about race a lot more. It's not clear to me that that's like what people want. But is it? I don't know, but they definitely say the words more if you're not like.

Tangerine and talking about hot sauce in your bag. I think if you're being real in June, I think people can pick up on it. It's like, yes, you want to know that your interest is heard. But then I don't kind of like, maybe biden I think that was a lot of people's gripe that he was kind of just maybe pandering. And then when he was in office, it's like, okay, I got your vote. But then it went somewhere else. I mean, it's talked about more, which is fine. And so now the issue is before us, but we're still taking a lot of L's in a lot of areas with violence, police, policing, even education. So, yeah, we're talking about it, but then what? Because in this case, we're still on the losing end, if not in a worse state than before, when it wasn't talked about. Because now that it's talked about, we're losing some of the ground that civil rights movement gained for us. So I just think that talking about it, yeah, it's good. But now what?

As a follow up to the first question I asked about why do you think black people vote for Democrats in such numbers? Do you think that's changing? Do you think the relationship between the black people and the party is changing?

The sad part about it is, yes. Even on my job, these younger so you have more black people that are owning their own business. They're entrepreneurs. And so the benefit that they're seeing is they're always helping me know what have they done for me? The Republican Party can give me these tax cuts and give me this and give me that. It boils down to those type of issues. And then they look at the Democratic Party and they're like, Well, Biden, I.

Mean, look at this.

We got all these immigrants. He ain't doing this, he ain't doing that. But it's always the plus for the Republican side because it's benefiting them.

Tangibly my fear is that a lot of young Democrats are leaning towards Republican because of the financial gain that they got during the pandemic.

Of course.

Yeah, those checks. Thank you. But my fear is the blindfold to what really is happening, like affirmative action. No one's saying anything about that. Ten years from now, we going to feel that you're going to see that in these jobs. You're going to see all of that. But if we don't say anything about that, know that'll be a problem.

Not to harp, like the Affirmation thing, but I think it kind of goes to your point, though, too, and explaining because that changed through the Supreme Court. So you kind of have to educate the young people as well, like that process, so then they're not once again disappointed in our Democratic Party or student.

Loans, right, knocked down by the Supreme Court. But there's a lot of people holding it against Biden that he didn't make student loans go away. Right.

But in Biden, he kind of ran on that. But I think maybe that's how he.

Got a lot of the plays.

We were like, oh, student loans, but then all of us didn't understand, like, okay, it could get blocked, and what power does he really have? And then so a lot of people are disappointed by him because of that. They're like, if he runs again, I still have tons of student loan debt, so he's not getting my vote. Our generation and not everybody in this room, but we are more so about self and what is it going to do for me? And so when they're looking at these candidates, it's really like, how do I benefit this? Instead of like what Chris said, thinking about ten years from now, how this will affect us, we're thinking about how this is going to affect me right now. And right now it feels good because I got money in my pocket. But now here we are three years later, and prices for gas and milk are up $20. So we didn't think about how this would affect us later on. We just thought, oh, this feels good now.

Joe Biden is 80 years old. He's running for reelection. I get the options of the choice. I'm saying, how do you feel about that?

I don't know. I don't know. It makes me think about if something were to happen, then who am I looking at as next in line? And so then it's know. So it brings it to reality.

The interesting thing for me is I had this whole plan, right? I had this plan of, okay, Biden can be Trump. Biden will run for one term and then Kamala would be next in line. And it didn't happen that way.

Kamala didn't put it.

Part of it is that she wasn't used correctly, and part of it is who she is. But you thought Biden would be one term and he was setting up the next generation. I was not prepared for to be back here. I was not prepared.

Almost like an impossible thought we would never see Biden and Trump again.

We just kind of thought we needed Biden for that moment, that he was our best shot of beating Trump. Specific to like, we think of the Bernie's of the world, you think of the kind of national progressive leaders they've really struggled to win over black people. What is it about progressive politics that has somehow, at least at the top levels, not fully mixed with black communities?

I think because a lot of black people are religious and that's where a.

Lot of what do you mean? Be more specific. What do you mean?

Okay, let's say women who want to have abortion, progressive believes that that's what you can do. But there are a lot of black people that don't believe that's wrong. The Bible say that's wrong, but you're taking away their power to choose. God didn't even do that to you. So for you to take away their power to choose, you just as wrong as them. You're being God to them.

We're in the same boat with this perspective, especially when you get to abortion. And it's like people are absolutely shocked to believe that I am saying that the woman should have a choice. It's like, can you be saved and say this? Absolutely. Because to your point, Chris, we all have choice now. I'm not saying I believe in it. I'm not saying that know think it's right. But you got a choice to make.

If it's Trump versus Biden again, do you know how you will vote?

It's okay.

How I will vote right now in this. I am very torn. I cannot vote for Trump. I cannot and face tomorrow and wake up and feel like I'm a person, a human. I can't do that. But also voting for Biden, it also brings concern to my life as well. That's my thing.

Biden.

Yeah, absolutely. Biden.

I'm going with Biden. I'm with Chris. I cannot I would go for Biden as well. I probably would not vote for either. I don't want either one. So it's like not to vote at all, but it's like, am I going to vote for someone who I absolutely don't want and then vote for someone who I really don't want either? What's the alternative? One of them is going to win, but it won't be because of me. So it's going to be because of.

A plethora of you running.

Do you feel like you're a Democrat more because of what Democrats do or more because of what Republicans do?

More because of what Republicans that's a good one. Probably more because of what Republicans do and I don't line up with that. I would say because of what Democrats do.

Yeah. That's the closest we'll get to Pride. More after the breakup, at this point in the evening, the turkey was picked clean. People were loading up on Angelica's bounty of desserts. And at least in a typical year, it was the time of night when the Boar games would come out where my mom would challenge me to a game of Parches. But this year, I was up to something. And before everyone left, I wanted to have two more discussions about black voters in 2024 to explore another division that's clear in the polling. David so we're doing a gender split as our last combo. So the men are going to stick around here and then we're going to have black women in the other room. Gender while there's significant drop off between young and old black voters in terms of political engagement. What truly alarms national Democrats is the current trend line when it comes to black men specifically. In that poll of battleground states, 27% of black men supported Donald Trump, an incredibly high number for a Republican primary candidate. And considering Trump's struggles with traditional swing voters like moderates and independents, his ability to appeal to groups that don't typically vote Republican, like black men, matters a ton.

So I wanted to gather the black men in the House and have an honest discussion about what might be behind those numbers and whether they think they'll hold hand raise. If you consider yourself a Democrat, that's about 123456 out of the nine of us. Would you consider yourself a Republican? One. Would you consider yourself an Independent?

I think dependent on the issue.

Depend on the issue. Okay, so we got two for Drew Jarrell. You said you're a Republican. Have you always been a always. What makes you a Republican? What made you a Republican generally?

I think those things vary by state for us. You know what I'm saying? Why would I vote against myself and in my community and where I'm from? The Republican Party does a lot for black people and a lot for business.

Where are you from?

Indiana.

So as a state that has Republicans in power has had Republicans in power for a long time, you're saying that leads you to be more interested in voting for Republicans?

Absolutely. Why would I vote against myself or vote against my interest?

One of the reasons we wanted to convene this group specifically is when you look at polling data right now, there's some fear among Democrats that this could be an election where there's a bigger drop off among black men specifically when it comes to Democrats. I'm curious, what do you think it is? What's the connection? Why are black men more open to Republicans, you think, than black women?

The financial mobility the Republican Party preaches somewhat of this concept of just strap up your bootstraps and kind of will your own way and to make your own way. Far as financially. The financial mobility that they say that's out there, I think that appeals to more men in disenfranchised that want to take another step financially within their community. So if you're telling me that I can be a business owner, you can give me the steps to be there. I can be more efficient. I can have more economic wealth in my own community. That is appealing to some people. I think that's kind of the reason that might be appealing to them. Another thing is that I honestly feel that the Democratic Party has forgot about the black male. What what I mean by that is that one of the major demographics that we have is African American women. They're amazing. They're very strong. They come out to the polls. But as African American men, sometimes we. Get left. Like our needs, our desires, our wants are not always in account. We kind of get pushed to the side. I think sometimes that might be something that men are looking at, that our needs are not being taken care of, like our matters are not being resolved.

I mean, Democrats say in nearly every speech now, black women are the bedrocks of democracy, or there needs to be specific, focus on them as the anchors of the party. I mean, I heard you say that you think that sometimes the downstream of that can feel like black men are absent. Do the rest of you all feel like black men are looking for the.

Democratic Party or any kind of party to give you validation? Why do you need these people? You a man, bro. If you want to feel a certain way or you want to do something, if you want to make money, then you should do it.

Voters want to be spoken to, though, right? Like, that's not unique to black men, right? That's not unique to one specific group. Voters want politicians to speak to those concerns.

That's what I'm saying.

That's the poor idea of politicians. My job is to make money so that I could buy my way or what I want. I don't want to ask you or you to tell me what I think. I want to pay you to speak for what I think.

Yeah, go ahead, Chris.

I also wanted to tag on to a lot of black men. Democratics do not cater to men because the squeaky wheel get the oil. We don't talk often. We don't speak up. We don't say anything. Women say, I'm a woman. I can't get this raise. They speak up. So of course they're going to cater to who going to speak up. And the number ratio towards women versus men is who will you spend more of your money to cater towards? You're going to cater towards the women.

There's also been a big change in how the Democratic party talks about gender and sexuality and other issues over the last five, six years. Right. A MeToo movement has completely upended language around gender and gender roles. A embrace of kind of LGBTQ rights, about transgender identity, has changed the way the party talks about certain issues. Do you think that that has shifted the party's relationship with black men?

Yes, it has. Reality of it, especially in the cities, we have a lot of people that can't pull themselves up, whatever the circumstances were. So we have a lot of black men are essentially zombies in their neighborhoods. And so with a lack of wisdom or knowledge to get to that point, they're not even in the picture. And then some that are in the picture, they feel that they're left out. Because the reality of it is, when you look at the homosexual movement or LGBTQ or however you want to put it, the reality of it is they get more equity than black men in some cases, but part of that is because of the movement that they have and at base and so they base make noise. And so if we collectively got together, perhaps we can make that noise. But unfortunately, sometimes we can't get together for whatever reason. It's like ten churches on one street in the same neighborhood and collectively we can't work together to do God's mission.

I think the zombie point is interesting. That makes me think about obviously joblessness criminal justice. If there was a specific issue that you think matters most to black men, what would you think that is? That's a mass journalization. I know. Trust me, I know. I'm saying this. If we could think, what would you think about? Like if there was an issue that someone could speak to that you think would resonate. Economic empowerment will be one of the primary things, but also spiritual enlightenment. And when I say that, I'm speaking specifically to coming to a knowledge of who we are, what our design is based upon, the biblical understanding of truth and manhood. Because manhood, I do think we have to fight for manhood because it's being pulled away and redefined by all these different groups. And I do believe that black men, we have to take our voice back and not be passive and be more deliberate and particularly Christian black men being very deliberate about discipleship, but also economic empowerment. I think those two things are critical for us. Well, let me ask then about the current figures, right? One, about Trump and specific to his appeal or lack of appeal maybe to black men, but Trump is someone who's done more outreach to black men specifically whether that know, first Step act and kind of criminal justice reform openness, whether that be hitting up every rapper who's ever lived.

But I mean, the man talks more explicitly about black men than any Republican I've ever known, right? And he's getting a response for it too. Do you feel like that a lot.

Of stuff that a lot of black men may be going towards Trump now is because what he said he did, his word was his bond and that's a lot of men's value what he said he would do it. Obama ran because he was black and saying all this black stuff, but when he took office, oh, he can't do that no more.

This is spicy, Chris, he's president.

But you ran from that and you won because of that. But when you got there, you couldn't do that. So what did he say that he was going to do that he did Trump. That didn't build the wall. That's a good thing. No, I ain't saying it's not actually.

About the value judgment of what he did. It's the fact that it's a person willing to do what they say they do.

And I want to add this one more point. I want to add this one more point. Under Trump's administration, I found a whole lot of black men starting businesses.

Yeah, but you understand that had nothing to do with Trump. But whenever there's a Republican in charge, they get rid of the Hill.

You got to give them the credit. Democrat if Obama did. Absolutely.

Twice. No, only the first time.

Only first time.

Did you vote for him, George?

No.

One thing we haven't talked about is kind of wars globally that's kind of in the last month has really taken up a bunch of the space. And one of the ways it's really affecting domestic politics is Joe Biden is going to ask Congress for close to $100 billion for Ukraine, for Israel, and a place that you see him having trouble kind of pitching that is, among black communities, right like that. There is less support sometimes for that amount of money going abroad quickly. I'm curious. Like, black men and black people have been a very domestic focused electorate, right. With what is happening globally right now, does that impact the way you think about next year's election? And what do you think about the prospect of how much money America spends to countries abroad? Because people like Donald Trump are going to make that America first. That's going to be one of those arguments that he's laying out.

I agree. It should be.

If the war is not abroad, not America first.

That's a fine answer. I hear what you're saying.

So right now you're talking about allocating hundreds of millions of dollars to Ukraine and Israel, and yet you have all these folk coming across the border, and you go right there, right down the street to Chicago, where you have people in the police departments and all that. And unfortunately, sometimes our government, whether it's Democrat or Republican, we don't take care of home base. We have a lot of places how they can put those funds and help folk out. But right now, the focus is over there. And I think you can multitask. Unfortunately, we're not I encourage us to take the stance of the airlines, put your mask on first and then go and help somebody else put their mask on. Because here's the deal. If you don't put your we will not survive. If we pay all this money to all these people, eggs going to be $25 per. Who is that going to affect the most? We don't create it's going to affect black people.

Okay, let's get back to Biden. What's the word on biden? He's too old.

And we talk about the negatives of Trump often, but we don't talk about the negatives of Biden. In a world of today's politics where most policies are written by think tanks and groups of people, biden handwrote a policy that resulted in more black people being locked up than ever in the history of America.

Black I mean, just for Donald Trump to succeed next year, specifically when we talk about black men. He basically needs like one out of 425 percent black men who will vote to vote for him. Do you think that's possible?

I think it's doable, but I don't think he's going to get the ticket.

I think he can get 25%. 1st question just work with me that he's the nominee. Just let's assume he's the nominee. Yes, assume as he's the nominee. Do you think that Trump can win one out of four black men? One is the economic factor in terms of him pushing for entrepreneurial and all those types of things. The other thing is that he's dealing with straight men, he's not pushing the gay agenda openly, and that's another elephant in the room when it comes to brothers. And so he has two things working for him that will appeal to one out of four. That is the elephant in the room. Trump's ability to appeal to some blackmail voters isn't just about Trump, it's also about masculinity itself and the ways that changing norms around gender and sexuality are reshaping the political landscape. Earlier in the week, I told my mom I wanted to focus on this in my conversations, and she pointed out that to only seek the perspective of black men without talking to black women would be a real oversight. And I agree, and not just because you should always listen to your mother. So while I was speaking to the group of men in the dining room.

I'm just going to be free roaming with the mic. So I'm going to try to come up.

My colleague Elisa spoke to a group of about 15 black women, including my mom and sisters, about their own political power.

We carry the weight of a lot, and politicians know it right that if we're voting, we're turning the tides on. Oftentimes we're that extra whatever percentage that will take that particular candidate over the.

Top to win the way that responsibility can be a burden.

Although men are still having a difficult time voting. Yeah, it just seems like we're still fumbling and not us fumbling, but the same issues are before us. And so black women have had to shoulder that. And I don't think that we shoulder it like we're shouldering it. I just think we do it. We just do what we do and that's all.

And their view on the question we've been asking everyone all night.

We're particularly interested too in black men who decide to vote for Trump. And I guess what do you all think is the appeal there? Do you get it? Do you not get it? What do you think is the reason that you have the black man who makes it, who's the CEO, who's successful, and then the things that Trump stand for financially benefits them, so then that's the black man that's voting for Trump, the black man that hasn't experienced. I don't think that's the only black man that's one of them you can go sue if you say uneducated, because uneducated, I think that's the thing that's it, right? That when you think about the lived experience with women and men, there was a burdening, there was a shouldering that we had to do, but we got education, right. I also think once we talk about the fairness of this country, in my approximation, I think that the problem is we believed the gendered lie, that a man would be up here and that women do what they do. And I think that maybe we propped up the belief that as a man, you would have certain advantages, maybe.

And that hasn't happened for black men. And I do think that it's created a question of what do I do in this? You know, Trump is very demonstrative against women in a way that affirms manhood. Right? And so, again, if you're feeling like you're discarded and nothing's working for you, that's going to appeal. That language is really going to appeal to you. But I think the more insidious part of it is that I think it really is the juxtaposition of the life. Like, you women had it. You're making money, you're doing all things that I could never do. Right? And so I know that on the higher end, but I think when anyone, white or black, makes money, they want that tax break. I have not met a CEO who don't want a tax break. So I don't know if we could just put it on like just black men who make money. But I think that when you mitigate and talk about take away education, take away just privileges, and that's working, right. Those are things that we're able to do as women in a way that just hasn't happened in an equitable sense.

Right. So it's literally the competition of things. And I think black men, when black mothers, we maybe gave wrong lessons to the children, because I think it's this idea that as a man, I was supposed to have this. This is what I was old, this is what I was due. Is that what your mother taught? One of the things that you'll hear him say all the time, him being Trump is even if he has all his different litigation issues, he'll say, they're coming after me and they're coming no, and not just that. They will by way of coming after me, they are coming after you. When they attack me, they're attacking you. That definitely maybe pulls on the desires of becoming for some black men. And if this man is saying, this powerful man is saying, I've got you, I understand that they have not been there for you. And you see how they're attacking me? That's how they're attacking you. And I'm going to stop them from attacking me. And that'll also stop them from attacking you. I'm always scared to say it, but less educated. But if you are not astute if you're not educating yourself, then what he says becomes golden.

I think even just like on a simpler level when he ran on Make America Great again, I think not just on race and gender. That whole slogan to me was almost like people wanting to get their so called power back. And so then as a black woman is like race wise, what do you mean make America great? What time period are you talking about? Because in the don't want to go for me. And then even for men, like you were saying, we now have done so much. And so if you are the man who's like, actually I thought I was supposed to be in a different place and I see my woman counterpart, I'm trying to make America great again too, reverse the tide and get my power back. So I hear that it seems like in this case, why you see black men voting for Trump is that it comes from a place of self interest, of wanting to from your perspective and choosing the thing that they think is going to best benefit them. I guess I'm wondering who you all see as the strongest advocates for black women. For black women, right.

Women are advocates for themselves. We talked about like, I'm going to butcher her name Kamala. We talked about her and I think people thought something more of her. And I don't know if black women saw, like, that was our I don't have the answer to that. But I wonder, when we talk about that, if we saw her because she had that pearls in gym shoes thing. And you saw all women from Sororities coming together with their pearls and their chucks, and they were like, oh, we've got someone that looks like us in there again. And they were hoping, like we said with Obama, they were expecting her to do so much and we've seen nothing. And so now it's like who speaks for us? I think people were thinking that she would be it and that's why we voted. So I honestly think she helped him pull that thing because there was no way without it. And so now that we don't have what we expected, it's kind of like, okay, well, there goes that. What's next? Well, I think that when we talk about men, whether black or white, I think know the thought of Kamala Harris being the president is easy to see why that black men could be going towards Trump.

Because the thought, even when we deal with Biden in his age and the thought is, okay, if something does happen, then this is going to be our president. I think that thought will drive many men, black or white at this point.

I walked over from the dining room to listen to what was being said. I also wanted to know what they thought of the question I posed to the group of men for Trump to basically achieve his blackmail goals. He needs to win one out of four.

Oh, really?

One out of four? If he wins, 25% to 30% of black men will be the highest rate of any Republican in modern history. Do you think he could win one out of four black men? Yes.

At this moment, yes. We have a lot of praying to do, like how he.

President. I read that soon after that conversation, we ended the night people started grabbing leftovers, packing them in tin foil and saying goodbye with laughter and hugs. I hadn't seen some of these people in a long time. And over the next couple of days, I heard from several of them who told me that they felt grateful to be part of the experience. I felt thankful for them, their willingness to play ball with my questions, their candor for celebrating my favorite holiday a little early. I was like, can you take us through this? Take us through what you made.

Oh, my goodness.

And of course, for giving Angelica an.

Excuse, I have Christmas pinwheel coconut macaroons.

To bake 13 different desserts fruit filled.

Shortbread, regular shortbread, pumpkin macaroons, cinnamon shortbread, lemon poppy seed shortbread, pound cake, ginger molasses cookies, chocolate chip cookies, oreo cheesecake, which is going to be like the triumph, and pecan brittle. Did I say walnut brownie? Okay, there's something life.

November 23, 2023. Thanks so much for listening. We'll be here every week until election day, breaking down this political moment, helping you understand what will really make a difference next November and hopefully make you feel a little less anxious in the process. We'd love for you to find The Runup in your podcast feeds, subscribe and follow along. The runup is reported by me, Ested Herndon and produced by Elisa Gutierrez, caitlin O'Keefe and Anna Foley. It's edited by Rachel Dry, Lisa Tobin and Franny Cartauff, with original music by Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, Pat McCusker, Diane Wong and Aliciaba ETU. It was mixed by Sophia Landman and fact checked by Caitlin Love. Special thanks to paula schumann, sam dolnick, larissa anderson, david howfinger, mahima choblani, renan borelli, jeffrey miranda, maddie masiello and Nikila townsend. Do you have questions about the 2024 election? We're working on a new question and answer segment and we want to hear from you. Email us at therunup@nytimes.com that's therunup@nytimes.com thanks for listening, y'all.