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Welcome to South Beach Sessions. I'm very excited to do this one for a number of reasons. Steven Jackson played 17 years in the NBA, unrelentingly authentic, an NBA champion. I want to show people that he He is not one-dimensional. I don't know how much trauma he has from being viewed as somebody who is super loyal and got into a fight a long time ago. Maybe that's all you know about Steven Jackson. I'd like to show people another side of him. I'm thrilled that the partnership with Metalark Media and All the smoke is something that is now up and running. We are partners in business. So thank you for being here. These are my reasons for doing this. Why are you so eager to do this? We had dinner in New York 10 days ago or so, and you were eager to do this. Why?

Yeah, first, I'm on for the partnership as well. I think it makes so much sense because when we first met, we hit it off. But for me, really, I was anxious to do this because I know it's beneficial for me just as well as it'll be beneficial for you to talk about certain things. The moment we had before our episode even started with you, that's not a moment I've had with many people. I don't talk much about the I go through in life besides stuff that's been publicized or shown for the world because I feel like that I'm built to get through anything. But we're saying that I am human. The fact that just a little brief conversation we had and I wasn't able to get through it without breaking down. I felt comfortable talking to you, and I felt it was time for me to get it out because it's holding me back. It's probably holding me back from being a better husband, better friend, because I'm numb right now to a lot of things because a lot of things have happened to me. I don't let it out. I just deal with it as a man should, but a man also should let it out.

I'm at this point now.

I will tell the people, just for conference because I sat down with Steven and Matt Barnes, and we did something for all the smoke where they were talking to me. Right before we started interviewing, I told them that I was broken because I had recently lost my brother, and this triggered something in Steven that he wasn't quite able to talk about then. We'll get to that in a second because I don't want to derail this right off the top. I want people to know where you come from. Your journey is fascinating. I admire you for a number of different reasons. The degree of difficulty of overcoming everything you had to overcome to just get to the NBA. 17 years spent in so many different environments in the NBA. Tim Duncan calling you the ultimate teammate because you fit with so many egos you've figured out a way to get into that environment and be yourself all time and be respected by others. And now you start a media career after that part of your life is over. Let's go to Port Arthur, though. You've called that a hellhole before, but it's your home. What are the details?

What are the landmarks about how you were imprinted very early in Port Arthur?

I love my hometown. I think the reason why I'm here today is because what was instilled in me as a youngster, survival and family and love. I think that's what I was taught the most. When I was growing up, it was eight sets of low-income housing, two high schools, one grocery store, and about 50,000 to 60,000 people. I grew up on the West Side, and everybody's doing the same thing. Everybody knows everybody. Everybody selling drugs or trying to figure out a way out of Port Arthur without working at a refinery. Everybody has refinery jobs. I grew up, my mom will not be talking about it too much in my interviews, but we had to move from Houston to Port Arthur, Texas, when I was five because of the living circumstances there, that situation that a man was putting her in with me and my older sister at the time. I ended up to Port Arthur where my family was, my grandma, the aunts, uncles, everywhere. That's when I started feeling loved. I started seeing what a real man looks like with my uncles and my grandfather. I understood the role of a man now instead of what was going on in Houston.

Port Arthur was just a place where the city protected me. I wasn't just a person out there just selling drugs, but I was with the drug dealers 24/7. I was the guy that was shooting people and doing drive-bys, but I was with them 24/7. And my city would I'll tell you that all the guys that had made it out as been in jail and came out, they all got love for me because I'm not the guy that was trying to be something I'm not. That was just my environment. I had no other place to go. I gravitated to basketball. The only reason I gravitated to basketball was because my uncles played. If I were to never went to Port Arthur, I would have never gravitated to basketball. But when I got there, it was big in my city, it was big in my family with my uncles and my older cousins. While going to their games on Friday nights in the south, a lot of people might not notice, but Friday night is not just football. During basketball season, the whole city lines up for that one night for that basketball game. And growing up, I wanted to be a part of that.

I think with my city protecting me, with the police letting me go a million times, knowing I play basketball, knowing I should be going to jail with the rest of these guys. My city really protected me and showed me that you have an opportunity to do something great. You tried to mess it up 20 times, but we believe in you. My city was a hellhole, but I owe everything to them because the man I am today, the stand-up guy I am today, being loyal to a fault is because of the things that I was willing to do for my friends growing up, put myself in positions just to help them when it wasn't benefiting me at all. All that stuff, growing up in the church, being around my family, all that stuff made me the man I am today to make me loyal to a fault, to make people look at me different ways because you don't understand the passion that you might not have been around somebody just as loyal as me that's willing to put his life on the line to say, I love you and mean it. It's a lot of things my city taught me, but I owe it to them for making me the man I am.

Your mother, can you take me through the details of what you remember from childhood on how much it took for her to try and keep it together for you?

My mom worked, so it was probably months I didn't see my mom, barely, because we wake up at 6:00 in the morning to go to school, to go to my grandmother's house. She got to wake up at 5:30 to go to work. She gets off at 6:00 in the evening. By the By the time she gets home, so she's tired, so she picks us up neat. I get home from practice 7:00, 8:00. My mom was already asleep getting for work, so I barely see my mom. It was frustrating because I had to become a man on my own. My older sister was a big part because she stepped in when my mom was working so hard. My mom was working 12 hours shifts and was only getting paid 30,000 a year. I understand how hard that is now, but then I I just knew she was trying to make a better way for us. I made a lot of mistakes during that time to hurt her, to make it hard on her, and just to try to help her, but I wasn't helping her. It was hard because she was single. My dad stayed right around the corner and didn't help her.

She never pressed child support on him. She never asked him for nothing. I think I heard her doing that taught us something. It was teaching us a lot. Don't depend on nobody. Do what you got to do for yourself. It made me and my little brother stronger. It made us figure it out and not make excuses and make love to the bad times. We enjoyed the bad times. My mom, she was there for it. She did everything she could, but she missed out on a lot, and we missed out on a lot of showing her how much we love her because she was always working.

I can hear the guilt in your voice. Why have you not resolved it? You were a kid. You were a kid in an environment that was pretty impossible without a lot of the supervision that a kid would need to have. Why have you not been able to resolve the guilt there or forgive yourself there?

Well, because I haven't given my mama the world yet. I think there's so much more I can do for her. I think whenever I get to that point, if I can before she passes, I I'll probably get to that point, but I owe her so much more.

I feel a debt toward my parents as well. They always tell me, though, there is no debt here. I brought you into the world, but I feel it. I feel like it's a debt I can never repay, but they're always reassuring me that there is no debt there.

Yeah, but they can't tell you how you feel. Nobody can't tell you what to appreciate and how to appreciate it. A lot of times, I talk about this all the time. We talk about our podcast. I post a lot of people podcast that I don't even know, never on, don't even know nothing about their show, but I like some of their content. But I don't post it for them to post all the smog and say, Yeah, I post it because it's genuine, and that's how I really feel. I don't care how nobody else feel. That's how I approach my life. I stand up for people. I'll stand up for somebody that I'm obviously raised because that's how I feel. I know people's opinion is not my reality, and I live that way. So I'm going to continue to love hard. I'm going to continue to hold myself accountable. If I feel passionate about something or someone, I want them to know that. I don't want a time to go by or somebody who I really care about it and dedicate my time and my hard work to make sure they have a better life. I want them to know I'm doing this because you don't have a lot of people that come across in your life that are actually genuinely living for you.

You know what I mean? There's a lot of people that I'm living for, and I'm honest to say that.

You say loyalty to a fault. I associate associate you with loyalty, obviously. Where did that start? Are there landmarks for you on how you became so fiercely loyal?

Yeah. Well, growing up in my neighborhood, it's The first thing you talk, one fight, we all fight, and we'll deal with the consequences later. That's the first education you get from being loyal to a fault. If your friend's outside, you're all outside playing basketball, one fight, even if he's wrong, you just fight. That's lured to a fault. He could have been dead wrong. But we're going to talk about it when we get home and deal with it later. I've been in situations in clubs where a fight breaks out. I don't know what happened, but my friends are fighting, and I just jump into it. It's dumb as hell, but I'm with you. I'm with you. That's why when the brawl happened, I didn't think twice. This is my brother. I'm with these guys more than I'm with my family during the course of the year. That was the put out that came out of me. I would rather Be that, Dan, than be the guy that's not helping. I'm looking in the paper tomorrow, one of my friends passed or something. You know what I mean? What if I would have been the guy to jump in?

You know what I mean? I'm just not that person, man. I'd rather be lawn to, if I'll be lawn to the people who I genuinely love, stand up for the people I genuinely love, and look crazy to others. But I know the person I'm standing up for, I know I love them, and that means more to me than anything.

I don't want to this early in what we're talking about, bring back whatever I imagine is the post-traumatic stress disorder of you went to help a mentally ill teammate run our test. I don't even mean that pejoratively. He has thought- He admitted it. He has talked later about how much work he has done in therapy. And you went into those stands without considering the consequences. It cost you about $3 million because of that. Can you take us through not the details of that experience, but the aftermath of it, being in the middle of it, being proudly loyal, but you've cost yourself so much money? It is a thing that haunt you still because I'm not sure that people associate your name with anything other than that public moment. People who don't actually know you, talk about the aftermath of that and how What scars you still wear?

I'm still dealing with it today. I'm walking to the store last night. Like, Steve Jackson, why are you walking the streets? I'm just going to get something to drink. Man, I remember you from the broad. I've done so many great things outside of that. But At the same time, the people who I relate to, the people who grew up like me, they respect me for that. So I love that side of it because they grew up around people like me. They understand it. But the people that don't understand it, I'm still dealing with the backlash of that because I was instantly portrayed as a thug, not a guy who was being the ultimate teammate, not a guy that just came from winning the Championship with the Spurs and was told many a times to go there and protect Tim Duncan and David Robinson. It just never spilled out to the stands. The guy that I had to go in there and check didn't actually want to fight. I've been that teammate without somebody telling me to go stand up for my guys. Just people labeling me for so long, we couldn't even speak up on it, Dan, until we came out with the Netflix documentary about it.

I always down first team, Common Sense. If you look at that, we shouldn't have been fined. We shouldn't have been wrong. If I go to a club right now, Dan, and throw a beer in somebody's face, I'm going to jail. That's assault. That's assault in any state. That's assault. And unless you are a rich professional-back athlete. Well, we were at work. We wasn't at a club. We were in our place of business where we should have been protected. We wasn't protected at all. And I honestly felt like this is my independent. I honestly felt like if the NBA Commission had any type of common sense to start that documentary, they'll see how security was poor. We were trying to survive. If that fight happened today, where the arena is now, we probably wouldn't have made it out of there because it's in the heart of Detroit now where the arena is now. This was in, I think, Lincoln or something like that when we were playing. It was Auburn Hills. I really felt like they should have watched that documentary, be like, You know what? We didn't have the list right. We need to give them their money back.

Honestly, Ron lost $5 million because somebody threw a bear at him because he defended himself. Nobody's looking at that because it was Black athlete. And to this day, we're still getting betrayed 100 because we decided to go defend ourselves when we were wrong So I hate that when people see me, a lot of people that would be like, Steven Jackson, I remember you from the broad. They're not saying that as a way of, Man, I respect your loyalty. I don't appreciate that. If they're either making a joke or making it seem like it I wasn't doing that to entertain you. I wasn't doing that to entertain no one. I was making sure my brother was okay. And then I put my life on the line. My whole legs was bleeding from hopping over bleachers. It was all scratched up. I put my life on the line for my team, and I do it again. I'll do it for you right now, Dan, and we're not thinking about it, but a lot of people wouldn't understand that. And dealing with that today with so many great things that I've done, at times, those people said that they don't mean it in a respectful way.

It does bother me because I'm so much more than I don't think we interviewed anyone more than you on Highly Questionable.

One of the stories you told, I think it was the first time you were ever on with us about loyalty, was being at the center of a raid in a home of a friend of yours that you were not participating in, but you went in and you had an amount of drugs on you in order to help your friend. And then a police officer came over and you were very You're fortunate that they didn't search you because you would have... How old were you at that age?

I was around 17, 16, 17, 18, somewhere around that.

Did you find yourself in a lot of situations like that where you were this close from losing your freedom or losing your life?

Now, think about that. The feds in my friend's house, and like I told you, I wasn't doing these things, but I couldn't help but be with the guys because that's everything around me. This guy actually took care of me. When my older brother was killed, he was one of close friends of my older My brother. He basically took me under his wing, bought me shoes, made sure I was fly because I really didn't have nothing. They were in this house, and it was nine hard ounces of cocaine in this house. Everybody in my city knows this story. He wanted me to go get it out. I love this guy, the things he was doing for me, man, he was basically saving my life. Even if he was giving me $300, I can go get a brand new pair of shoes. I know how hard my mama working. You know what I'm saying? She buying me a pair of shoes, but I got to wear that pair of shoes all year. You know what I'm saying? So the things he was doing for me meant something to me, and I seen he cared about me. So I went in there and got it out the house while they were in there.

He came out and gave me his card. I'm like, I know you because they used to escort our busses to basketball games. So they knew who I was, but they knew I hung around him. So he just came outside and gave me his card and told me to make sure a joint call him. And if I can do that, the broad was nothing. You see what I'm saying? This is where I come from. And it was the dumbest thing ever. I would say it to anybody that's listening. That was the dumbest thing ever to do. I would never do that again. But I didn't know where my life was going. I was living for the day, dad. The money he gave me for that lasted me and my family a long time. I was able to do some things with my friends, my little brother, my son. It helped me out at the time. Without knowing the consequences, it could have ruined my whole life. But that's just the The people that I was around in the Lord's Day I was taught, I do anything for people that care about me. That situation, you know what I'm saying?

It just show the type of person I am. But also, I'm willing to teach through that moment because I'm pretty sure I'm not going to be the only person that's put in a position where your laurate or your life is at jeopardy. I can't lie to you, Dan. If I knew I was going to the NBA and he called me, I wouldn't do it now. I wouldn't have done that now. You know what's great about doing work around the house, whether it's mowing the yard or digging in the garden? It's the fact that when you're done, the very first thing you do when you get back inside the house is grab a bottle of middle light. From Fireside In conversations and game nights, winter means more moments with the coolest people in your life. Make these moments even better with middle light, the great taste of light beer for people who love beer. It's the taste you can depend on, no games, no gimmicks. With simple ingredients like multi-baulive, rich balanced toffe note flavors, and the iconic golden color. It's 96 calories and just 3.2 grams of carbs per 12 ounces. Millalight is always a great time.

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What were your early teens like?

It was basically whatever you see is what you know.

Small then?

Small. I don't see nothing outside of Port Arthur. It's trying to survive, trying to eat, spending time with your friends, playing basketball, smoking a little weed, you know what I'm saying? Every now and then, but it played the games. It wasn't really nothing to do. You were surviving. Every day you wake up and try not to catch a straight bullet or try not to go to jail. That's all it was. Basketball was the escape, but it was only escape for so many hours. I had to come back to reality eventually during the day. But my family was strongly We're in the church. I think being in the church a lot growing up, that helped me, too, because I knew right from wrong. I knew respect. Just like the guy coming here, I speak to everybody. I treat everybody the same. I was taught that as a youngster, I can say I'm a man in many hats. I might beat a guy up for disrespecting you, but on our way out, I might hold the door for all the ladies. You know what I'm saying? I'm that guy, and I don't want to be understood because I know my heart is always in the right place.

Were you scared much during that? Always.

I don't think, like people said, scared or nervous. I said this talking to Jim gray, and I love the fact that I be scared and nervous because being nervous definitely doesn't mean you're scared It just means you're anxious about being great. I'm more scared about not reaching my full potential than letting somebody down. You know what I'm saying? I know I have so much more in me. If I don't reach that potential. I got to look in the mirror and see that person, and I'm going to be upset with him. That's what's more important to me because I know what I'm here for.

Not the fear I was talking about. You're going different than the fear. I mean, you're talking about straight bullets, you're talking about surviving, and that's the fear that I was talking about because you're notoriously tough. That happened during that time. I've heard you said, I make love to pressure. You just said a second ago, I make love to bad situations. You're used to it. I'm talking about the survival fear.

Of course, you're scared. Mike Tyson is one of the toughest guys ever. He said every time he got in the ring, he was scared. Of course, you're scared because a bullet don't have no name. I've seen innocent people get shot and killed. I've seen innocent people get jumped on. I was standing outside the club. I'd say this though. I was standing outside the club one time, and we just standing there. It was late. Everybody basically leaving. There's a whole bunch of knuckleheads out there and guy's just bored. The guy across the street is just standing there with his friends. A guy just walks by, and he just hit the guy in the head with a bottle. We run over there and try to help the guy because like, But this just... You know what I'm saying? Just dumb stuff happens. I felt bad for the guy, you know what I'm saying? Because he just walking home and these thugs, idiots, just ain't got nothing to do. He just hit the guy in the head. Things could happen at any second without your control in the environment like that. A lot of people don't understand. People that grow up like me when we make it out.

That's why we stick our chest out. That's why we like diamonds and nice things. You might not understand this, but you don't understand what we made it out of. We were told so many times growing up that you won't be successful, that you can't do this. Everybody going to be working at the refiner. You'll never be a million. You were told you couldn't and you wouldn't be so many times, even from people you love growing up. So when we make it out that situation, then we stick our chest out because we feel like we made it through hell. You know what I'm saying? We feel like we deserve every life or everything that everybody else is at, you know what I mean? But everybody don't get that opportunity. I got a great opportunity. I had a great... I was blessed. I don't want to go to another subject there, but I was blessed to I was a 16-year-old Jewish kid with balls to pull up in my hometown to give me an opportunity. That's when my life changed. And ever so, I said, We don't get the opportunities. Everybody don't get that. So I was blessed to have that.

Well, tell me about that, though, because we've got plenty of time here, and I'm promising you and the audience that we're going to get to the subject matter that you're here for. I just don't want to derail everything because it's terrain that can be complicated for both of us. But tell me about the 16-year old Jewish boy that changed your life.

Well, this is someone who I love just more than anybody on this Earth. That's why I laugh at the Semitic stuff, because you wouldn't know nothing about me, Dan. Man, you wouldn't be sitting here if it wasn't for Josh Passman. No one in the world would know me. This kid was 16 years old. We're the same age. I'm on the basketball court. It's drugs, guns, all type of stuff around my environment. This kid pulls up 16 years old in a white land cruiser to the park where I'm playing at. How do you know I'm here, first of all? When someone like that pulls up in my environment, you instantly the police. Ain't nobody finna to talk to you. He just walks up. I'm talking about super confident by himself Steven Jackson? I'm looking around like, Man, we all thinking of a police guys starting to walk up, saying, What's going on? He's like, My name's Josh Passner. I got an AAU team in Houston. I wanted to see if you wanted to come. I'm like, Huh? And I'm thinking it's a joke because this never happens. It's millions of guys around me that could play basketball that I grew up watching, you know what I'm saying, that should be in the NBA.

Some of them are better than you.

They're out there in the park with me right now. They never had this. So I'm like, Everybody's looking like, What? So at the time, even though I'm in that environment, my heart is still the same heart I have today. So as soon as I see him, that he's not a threat, I'm instantly protecting it. I go to instantly put my arm around them and start talking to them to let them know that everything good because it can go soft quick. I'm not the person in my hood where I can say, Don't do this. I'm not no voice like that. I don't have no money. I don't have no rank in the hood to do that. Anything could happen at that time. But they have the respect of me knowing that I'm the next thing to come out of my hometown.

And you're looking at him and saying, You don't know the danger you've just walked into.

I'm about to tell him. I'm about to get into that to him, but I'm about to let him know all that. But at the same time, I'm still in awe of what he's saying. I've never heard nothing like this before. It's out of the movies. It's blowing my mind. But at the same time, I'm trying to protect him. He gets to explain who he is, where he lives, Josh Pastner. I have a team called Houston Hoops in Houston, me and my dad, but I coach the team. I basically run the team, da, da, da, da. I'm in Houston, I'm like, Bro, I don't have no car. I get to tell them all All these things. Don't worry. Now, Houston, Kingwood, Fort Arthur is our hour, hour 45. No, I'll drive and pick you up a practice and bring you back home. He was driving from Houston. He was driving from Houston back to Port Arthur twice a week, along with being in high school, along with coaching the team, along with doing his own workouts, just so I can have an opportunity because he believed in me. Nobody else believed in me. He believed in me.

A kid. This was a kid. We were the same age. But he was scouting. His mind was a million miles ahead of mine in basketball.

Nobody at that point had made you feel like they believed in you, because you're saying that everyone around you is saying it's going to be the refinary.

Right. My high school coach believed in me, but his words didn't make me believe that it could actually happen. Of course, he believed in me because I'm playing for him. But Josh coming, somebody outside of my ceiling you, that is really real. But we had the conversation, and he was coming picking me up twice a week, driving back and forth. I started seeing it like when I first got to his house for the first time, big old house, big dog, just the wig old crib. This is what we see on TV. I've never seen this. I'm in awe. I'm walking in this house. I don't want to touch nothing. I don't want to break nothing. I'm from the hood. I've never seen nothing like this. I'm just excited to be it. I'm scared. I've never seen a dog this big. The whole thing is blowing my mind. But But this is what people from where I grew up don't get a chance to see. It's more the life. You can be something else. So being there, I was able to go there. I even stayed with them on the weekends. Along with playing with Josh Hotpastner, I was able to get seen by Steve Smith at Oak Hill.

And my high school was good. I ended up winning the state Championship my junior year. But my senior year, Josh felt like I needed to go to Oak Hill because I was too good to be in Texas playing basketball. In order for you to reach your potential stack, you need to go to Oak Hill. So we had an AAU game, and Josh and his dad brings Coach Smith over. And he introduced himself, and they tell me about the school. In my I'm fine. I'm not leaving my hometown. I'm the man. I just want a state championship. I finally get a chance to play with my little brother. He's going to be a freshman this year. So no, I'm staying back. But Josh and Coach Passner, this is when my family came in. Josh was like, Jack, you got to do it. I'm still hard-eared at the time. I'm believing in them, but I still got my street mentality. I didn't want to go. So before school, I was getting ready, starting maybe a month and a half. But football season had started in my high school, so I'm out there trying out for football. I'm out there running my routes, warming up, stuff like that.

I see my coach and my mom and my uncle walking on the track towards the football field, and I turned around. I instantly knew what it was. I already knew. My coach was like, Come here. We We ain't doing that. We ain't doing anything. You ain't played football all your life. A couple of years from going to the NBA, you might not see it, but we see it. You're not about to get hurt on the football field. They pulled me off. You know me, I'm mad, crying, rebelling, don't want to listen to nobody. I think around it, right before I went to O'Keefe, I started smoking a lot because I was mad. You know what I'm saying? I didn't want to leave my home town. I didn't want to go to a prep school where I got to wear uniforms. They separate the girls and boys. That's going to be a culture shock for me. I'm not going to make it there. Man, they packed my stuff up. My mom drove me, I think it was 18 hours. In a little small van, she had a friend that helped her rent a van. We packed the van up with all stuff, and we drove from Port Arthur to Mouth of Western Virginia for 18 hours.

The longest drive, worst drive ever. I get to this prep school, and when I get there, I'm like...

Seething the whole time, 18 hours, you're stulking, seething, angry, mad at your family.

Popping the whole time. I know. I don't see it, but I know Josh is smiling the whole time I'm on my way. I'm mad, but I know he happy because he know where I'm going. I get there, they give me uniforms. I'm like, Dad, I'm telling her I ain't going to make it. I'm telling her I'm not going to make it. I'm not going to make it. Well, the survival skills in me kicked in. I got there and I seen what the basketball program was. I figured out we weren't going to be at school much. I figured out we was going to travel. We was doing a lot of traveling, all these big terms. I'm like, Okay, I might like this, right? But I went there with a 1.7 grade average. I thought it was just basketball. No, you still got to do school work, too. That was hard for me, then. I ain't going to lie. That was hard for me because I wasn't a student. I didn't I wanted to be a student. It wasn't that I couldn't learn. I didn't want to because I felt like what I wanted to do, I didn't need it.

I'm an athlete, bro, which was the dumbest way to think. But I buckled down and got my grade point average to a 2.3 in one year and was able to qualify for school. During that year, we traveled a lot and my name got bigger, where I went from not being ranked in the top 15 in the country to being ranked in the top 15.

Well, what was the team that you were on? How soon after that, you were the leading scorer on the team that had Kobe Bryant on it, right?

That was the McDonald's All-American game.

But there were other people in that game. It wasn't just Kobe. There were other. Tim Thomas was in that game.

Jermaine O'Neill, Mike Bibby, Richard Hamilton.

You were the scorer? Yeah.

I ended up I'm going to end up making McDonald's All-American, which I never thought. I would have never made it from Porto Alto. I would have never made it from Lincoln High School. That's the highest honor that you can get as a basketball player coming out of high school. At that moment, you know what I mean? I'm instantly feeling like I owe Josh something at that moment. Let me tell you why I say it. I say at that moment, the McDonald's game, because I know I wouldn't be here without him. Look where I'm at. My mom's here, my uncle here.

He believed in something that I couldn't even see it. I couldn't even dream it.

It was not even a thought in my mind, Dan, that I would be at this point, you know what I mean? That I can make it to the McDonald's game. All I was thinking, Well, how can I show him my appreciation? I signed with the University of Arizona. I tell them I'm not coming if Josh can't come. This is how things are supposed to work when you genuinely love someone and you genuinely care about someone. He ends up going to Arizona. I ended up not passing the test. They scheduled for me to take the test four or five times, and I still had that mentality of not... I was going to the... I can't lie, the test was at 8:00 in the morning. I get home 6:30, go take a shower, still hung over and go in the test and fall asleep. Because I didn't care about it. I actually didn't think I needed that to be successful, and I was so wrong.

And you weren't really being taught discipline. At all.

No, it wasn't being taught Like I said, I was learning everything from trial and error growing up. A lot of things besides being respectful, knowing right from wrong. But the things in life of taking the time to study and learn, I had to learn that from trial and error. That's why I'm so good at it now because I didn't care about it growing up. Josh ends up being there. I ended up not making it into Arizona my first year, so I ended up leaving. Mike Bibi's mom, she knew that if I go back to Port Arthur the time, I'll probably end up dead in jail. My mom and her, they both was like, If he come back here, no telling what's going to happen. She lets me stay with her. During that time, Arizona ends up winning the national championship. Josh gets the national championship, which I felt like I want to win because that was my class. He ends up being an assistant coach at Arizona. It all worked out for my boy, which was perfect. But I ended up staying with Mike Bibi's mom to the point where she cared so much about me.

She didn't want me to go back home. I ended up standing and working out with her, with Mike's older brother Dane. Still rebellious, still getting in trouble, even out there, because my brother, he wasn't all the way on the right side of the street either. You know what I'm saying? He was a little out there, too. I fit right with him, but at the same time, he knew the mission that his mom had him on. You know what I mean? Even though we did all the things, I stayed in the gym. I stayed working out to the point where she woke me up one morning, Dan. My life is really a movie. She woke me up one morning and she said, Grab your shoes. We're going to work out. I'm like, Cool. All right. We're not going to the LA fitness with me and Dane or the local wives there we normally work out. We end up downtown at the stars arena. Why are we here? Minute by minute, I'm getting more and more excited. Hold up. We end up going to the practice gym, Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, they all in there. This year, this is about the time where Phoenix had made a whole bunch of trade.

They had one The draft pick, and the draft was the second to last pick in the draft because that's the year they traded for McDice and all those guys, so they had no piques. They only had one pick, the second to last pick. So I went in there and she was like, Put your shoes on. Go play. I'm looking at her like, Huh? Danny Ames comes over, says, Hi. Go shoot up. I go out there and murder everybody. This is my opportunity. One thing I say I make love to pressure, look at my career in basketball. When it's time for me to show up, like Pimsy say, when the boy get out there, He do get out there and get it, man. Yes, I go out there. When it's time for me to show up, I show up, and I saw an opportunity. This was what made the opportunity even better for me. Jason Kidd. When I walked in that gym, he put something in me. I don't know what it was. I'm confident in you. You're on my team. As soon as I walked in the gym, I was getting lobs, I was getting all stuff, and I had a great showing at 18 years old, and I ended up getting drafted by the Assanas, but I ended up getting cut.

They guaranteed me $250,000, but I didn't have a spot on the roster, so I ended up going to the CBA.

You spent all that money in the mall, didn't you?

Yeah. My first check, they gave me a $25,000 check. Like I said, I've come from nothing. I was anxious about doing something, me and my friend. I just wanted to do something. I knew more money was coming, but I didn't know at the time what I was doing is so asking. I go, I get the check. As soon as I get it, I go to the bank and try to cash it, not knowing. Back then, when you didn't put a check for that much, it's like a hold or something, a couple of day hold. I go to the bank, I'm mad. I'm like, No, you can't tell me this is my money. I'm not understanding. So I'm damn about to go to jail trying to get my check cash because they tell me, Man, there's no such thing as a hold. My name is Steve. They didn't want to hear none of that.

None of that work? At the bank, my name is...

Nothing. Okay, I see you use your check, I see your ID, but you still go away to wait till this check, clear. So we just sitting at home the next few days, biting our nails off. We got money. Checking their account, checking their account. Me, Mike Bibi, my little brother, and Mike Bibby's sister, Chelsea. Wake up one morning, It hit. It hit. Wake everybody up, go to the bank, take all of it out there. 25k. Take it all out. Around this time, Air Max, J'Bos, Polos, all that type of stuff was there. Left them all with me, Mike, and my brother and his sister. Left about 2,500 left. Every Air Max, every J'Bos, every piece of clothes we ever dreamed of, we bought. Got home. Mike, mom, relayed a message to my mom. It was a long time after that before I seen another check. I held on to that $2,500. That had to make me... That had to last for a while. I didn't see a check for a long time after that.

Mom, shut Set it down.

She shut it down. Shut it down. Now I got financial advice, all kinds of stuff. No, we're not doing this right now. You still get her.

Maybe this answer is self-evident, but when I ask you, why were you getting in so much trouble? Why were you Not knowing any better. You can look back as an adult, but you're saying I had to do all that stuff to fail to learn where it is that I wasn't smart.

Yeah, try that era. But also either I stay at a house, as soon as you go outside, you're into some type of situation. Even if I go to the basketball court, it's going to be a situation there. Drugs have been sold there. If I go to my friend to hang out with my friends on the other side of town, I might be caught up in the beef. You know what I'm saying? It was basically hard to escape the trouble. Now, getting pulled over with weed or getting in fights, stuff like that, yeah, that was all on me. I chose to do those things. But that comes with the people I'm with, the guys I'm lured to, just being in a situation that you can't really avoid. Some of that stuff, that's just a part of life growing up in Port Arthur that you have to deal with, and everybody don't make it out. That's why I'm thankful, and I always show love to the people that protected me because a lot of people before me should be here in my position. It should be professional, basketball, should be professional, athletes, should be successful. They didn't get the opportunities I got or had the protection I had.

When and how did you become good with your hands? When and how did you become tough, and if not, fearless, looking and seeming being fearless?

I think the first time you show that you are scared where I'm from, it's going to be abuse. They're going to take advantage of it. Me, even though it's times where most of the time I am scared, I'm not afraid of human beings. I'm afraid of what could happen. I could die. I knocked out, but I feel I have the same skills to hurt you as you hurt me, maybe even more. I've never been afraid of a human being, and that just comes from a kid. I'm willing to, as When I was a kid, I got in fights. I remember my cousin took my ice cream when I was a kid and I turned to punch him. It's a picture when he took me. It's still a picture that my mama got with him taking my ice cream and I punched him. I just never been scared of anything. You know what I'm saying? I think I was taught as a youngster, don't fear anything but God. I'm hearing that as a kid. I'm not even scared of weapons. I'm scared at the time, but I go in a room that I'll cry, but that wasn't it.

You know what I'm saying? But that's just was instilled in me that I can't really tell you where I came from. Maybe it comes from my hometown, maybe it comes from my father or just what's instilled in me, but I can't really put... Because I'm never the type to make up anything, so I can't tell you where it come from. I think it was just instilled still to me until this day. That's why I'm willing to take up for people. I've never been afraid of another human being, regardless of what they say or what they look like. I don't think that's taught. You got to be in you, not on you.

We grew up very differently when you talk about the photograph with the ice cream because some of the earliest photos are of my little brother with a stick and me with an eye patch, because he was the rebellious one, and he was the one who was always getting in trouble Where and how did you learn how to love because you love hard?

Well, that's a good question. A couple of situations. Losing a lot of people, growing up helped me love hard because I felt like certain situations, like when my older brother getting killed, I felt like I was not too far away. If I was with him, it wouldn't have happened. I love hard because I've seen the sacrifices that a woman can make for their children. You can't show love no harder than that. Putting your health on the line, just not everything that you wish you had in life or the things you want to do. You're putting all that behind and basically going to a place where chemicals are basically killing you every day. It ain't no secret the chemicals that they're trying to kill me are killing. They're killing the work, especially my mom was growing, was working there. Just seeing that, there's no love harder than that. My grandmother, waking up every morning, there's 13 grandkids in the house. Nine to 13 grandkids in the house, and she got to feed them all breakfast and get them ready for school. None of them are kids. Seeing her do this every day with no reward for it, that's love and hard.

I've seen it firsthand. I've seen it firsthand and growing up. For me, that's one of those things, too, is it got to be in you, not on you. I've seen it. I wasn't taught it. I've seen it.

It risks the greatest loss, right? To love like that is the pain that I still have in me. The harder you love, the more that it hurts. We will talk about the recent loss of your little brother, but I figured that your loyalty came from a regret I've heard you articulate a number of times, which is your older brother beaten to death with bottles and pipes, right?

I got a funny story, so I got to update a story about it. This is how real I am. I'm still connected. I still talk to a lot of my friends from home town, friends that's been in and out of jail. The situation happened the way exactly where I said happened. But a friend of mine actually talked to some of the guys that was involved. They even wanted wanted it to get back to me because they respect me. They appreciate the person I've become, how I made it out the hood, how I still show love and take care of my city. They wanted me to know that it didn't go down like I was told. The fight happened. They jumped him in all that, but the bottles and pipes didn't happen. They said when they jumped on him, when they knocked him, when they hit him and he fell down, he hit his head on the curb. And that's how his head split open. Knowing those guys, what they did was totally wrong. Some of those guys did their time, but I respect them for relaying that to prove somebody who I love. I believe it because they didn't have to do that.

They didn't did their time. It didn't happen. So that feels better to know, but it still don't make it better. He's still not here. Just not being there when I'm about five minutes away. I'm probably not even five minutes away at my friend house on the 3,200 block, not even knowing what's going on. It's just going When to the hospital. I didn't want to go see him when it first happened. I gave him some time, and my dad was my dad, kept telling me to come over there. This is not my mom's son. This is my dad's oldest son. But I lived with my dad for a little while, and I admired my brother I'm going to be honest with you. I admired him for all the wrong stuff. They'll tell you in my hometown, there's songs and stories about my old brother. He terrorized the city. He was a real gangster, and a lot of people didn't mess me because of him. You know what I'm saying? To be honest, because he really lived that life. But I say that to say I didn't want to go to the hospital because I didn't want to see him like that.

That was my protector. I was learning stuff from him. I had to go see him. He had 18 staples of something in his head. When I went in the hospital, nobody got no emotion. He was brain dead already. He was basically just a vegetable at the point. I go in the hospital and I kiss him on his forehead and a tear drop out his eye. No emotion up until that point and a tear drop out his eye because I knew he wanted to say something to me. For me, I took it as, Don't do nothing stupid, bro. Don't go do nothing stupid. You know what I'm saying? I knew he couldn't say it. I knew it, but I knew that's what he was trying to say to me now. He died shortly after. I mean, I was after. He died, I was after. That bothered me because, like I said, I knew I could have changed it. If I could have been, maybe not. Maybe we both would have been dead. Who knows? But just losing him at a young age when I was at the point where maybe I could change. You know what I'm saying?

I was thinking maybe something can happen for me. I don't know. I just felt like it was going to be different. I felt like he should be... Even right now, being here, doing this interview with you, with all this success we're having with all the show, I still feel both of my brothers should be in there right You were about 14, 14 years? About 15, 16.

How did the new information reopen wounds for you? To learn that it wasn't because you were probably imagining, right? You're imagining, I wasn't there to protect him from pipes and bottle.

Yeah. Really, the person he was, I felt like nobody out there can protect him from that. But it didn't open. It gave me a little relief knowing that he still suffered, but knowing that they didn't do that to him, knowing that kept a cold to it. You know what I'm saying? It was just a fight, and it ended that way. I respect that even more.

Let's talk about this part of it, because I'm not sure what it is that reached you from the last time that I talked to you about it. I've struggled with this. I don't have solutions. I have isolated from some people, but I have talked about it publicly, and I've talked about it with some people in ways that have offered some healing. But the pain for me is real. I think, I'm not sure, but the place that it connected with you, because I don't know how much you've spoken about your little brother who passed in November, I think a couple of the places, and I don't want to speak for you here, but resonated with you is that I was telling you that I had a year at his deathbed that I'm very grateful for because it wasn't sudden. So it was a horrible year. It was the worst, but I'm grateful that I had some warning. And then the other The great part of it is, that's my little brother. I'd never imagined the possibility, even while I'm at a deathbed, even now while I'm talking to you. The idea of it just seems impossible to me because I helped raise him.

I don't have kids like this. I haven't lost a child, but it feels like I can't imagine a pain a lot worse than this. How have you dealt with this? How have you dealt with the loss of your little brother? Who's helping you?

I haven't dealt with it. In a way, I don't want to. But similar to you, I never picture life without it. A lot of the stuff I I did a lot of the thing I aspired to do was to make him happy, was to show him I can do it. It was no person on this earth. Every time I did something, then I'd get a text from him. I'm not surprised you could do anything. This the relationship we had. I just thought, it's just hard because being so close to somebody since I was three years old. Being so close to my little brother since I was three years old, man. Just the bar we had, the pressure that was on him being my little brother, with him playing basketball and growing up. I think for me, The way we felt about each other was so mutual because he appreciated the things and the man I was to be there for our family, to change our life, and the willing to work hard and put myself through whatever for a better living for us. But he also understood that I admired him. I wanted to be him.

My little brother did everything the way I wanted to. My little brother didn't have baby mamas all over the place like I did, like I do. He didn't have kids all over in a place like I did. My brother married his high school, sweetheart, had three kids, was raising his kids, was working, was doing everything that I wanted to do. But I wasn't mentally strong as him, so my brother was the glue to my family. I was able to Travel and go around the world and do things and be successful while he was holding the family down. Anything that my mama needed or my sister needed or even my kids that was in the area he was there for us. He was the glue to my family. Not having him takes a big part of me or out of me then because that's the only person that I can rely on That I know, and this is not no disrespect to anyone on this earth that love me. But with him, I know I was going to get judged at no time. At no time, I was going to get an an honest response from him.

I was going to get an honest response from him, and everything was going to be genuine. Just not having him here, I just never picture life without him, dad. Just not having him here, not been able to call him. I talked to him an hour before he passed, and not knowing how he passed, just saying the hospital is not saying it wasn't cardiac. His heart just stopped. I don't think I'll ever be all right because I'm going I'm going to always feel like I need to text him. I'm going to always feel like I want to talk to him because I didn't confide in nobody. That's why I never talked about this, because I talked to him about everything, children, relationship. I talked to him about everything. He was the closest person to me. A lot of the things I did, a lot of the things I did as far as expiring to do this and act, I did everything. A lot of stuff was because I wanted to show him, because he was telling me I could do it Things that I didn't even think. It wasn't even a thought of mine was, You could do this, Jack.

You could do this. Not hearing that, not having that in my ear. It hurts. It hurts. It hurts. It hurts. It's just hard to explain that, but just not having him here, not being able to call him. Remember, they say when you lose someone, the love doesn't go away. You don't have no way to show him or express it, so it come out eyes. I'm going to be like that for the rest of my life.

I've been crying so much. I'm embarrassed by it. I cry here. My wife, I'm telling her all the time, I don't want to be crying so much, but it sounds to me like you've been pushing some of this down, too. It's not great. If you don't have the confidante or the person that you would normally lean on this, then what do you do? You just shove it down?

But dad, people don't think, especially as a Black man, dad, I got children to provide for. I got business. I'm trying to be great. I'm trying to start a business. I'm trying to do all these things. It's hard to sit there and feel… I don't have time to sit there and feel sorry for myself.

To grieve? Wait a minute. Come on, Steven. It's hard to grieve. It's not feeling sorry for yourself.

It's grieving. You're right. No, you're right. But as a Black man, with all the responsibilities, with the stuff that people, especially the people that you provide for, a lot of times they don't understand what they put on you. But at the same time, I accept it. So I put that first before my own well-being. Because I've seen my mom do it. I've seen so many people do it.

You know it's not healthy.

It's not healthy.

You know it's not.

That's why I didn't help.

Your mom gave you all that love, but you got to love yourself, too. You got to love yourself first. First, maybe? That doesn't seem like your way. If you're running into the stands to help a teammate, you're not necessarily considering yourself first.

One of my kids said this to me recently, Dan. It's funny you said this. Daddy, I think it's time for you to start being a little selfish. This is coming from one of my kids because she know what I've been through with my other kids, moms, and our relationships with kids and family and life. My oldest daughter. That hit me. That hit me because I never thought that. I never thought about being selfish. I never thought about putting me first because I think the reason why I go so hard is because I'm responsible for other people. Maybe that's hurting me, too, at the same time. I got to think about that there.

Well, it hurts happiness, right? I've heard enough therapists talk about the idea that it's love That you would love hard. Like I said, you got to love yourself first in order to love everyone else correctly. If you're avoiding the things that you need to take care of yourself, you're going to be less happy in ways that you may not even realize day to day. Yeah.

I was told it's hard to be there for everybody else when you can't be there for yourself. I'm starting to learn that, Dan, and God is continuing to bless me. The partnership with you all, the show, a lot of stuff that's happening to me I never thought would be happening. But I feel like it's happening because my heart is always in the right place. Yeah, I'm not always right. Yeah, I say a lot of things out of passion. I might react certain ways, but my heart is in the right place. So I think I'm comfortable with that.

What do you think you're going to do to help, actively help yourself here as it revolves around Donny's passing?

I don't have an answer to that. I'm always real with you. I don't know, there. I really don't know. I think this is a good first step for me because I never publicly talked about it. When I first came back on the show, I barely got through the show with Magic Show, but I did it for Matt, and I needed be around Matt. You know what I'm saying? Because that's my brother. That's one of the closest things like my little brother. Being around him at the time and talking to him about it, but I just been real sheltered about it. Like I said, what made me open up to you and willing to talk to you about you because you can feel me. You feel my pain. Hurt is hurt. Hate is hate, regardless how you put it. It's the same definition. If you lose somebody and I lose somebody, we both hurt the same way. I don't know. Relationships are different, but the love, and I see it in your eyes the way you feel about your little brother. I couldn't imagine watching my little brother for a year. I couldn't imagine that. When you said that to me, I honestly feel like I have somebody that can relate to me and understand that when I sit here as a 45-year-old grown man with everybody thinking I'm tough and Then I'm just such this hard guy that if I sat down with this guy and spewed my real feelings, and even if I let out some tears and snack on my nose, that's somebody that's going to understand it and not judge me.

I've seen that from the short conversation. We never had a show opening like that. We couldn't even start our show because the conversation you had was so deep. That touched me, Dan. We've had millions of interviews before you. I had other guys ask about it, but I've never had that moment. I held on to that moment. That's why I was so excited to get here to talk to you about it because I knew it would help me and hopefully, it'll help you because I want to know how you're doing, too.

Well, I imagine your situation to have been harder than mine. You say you can't imagine being there for a year. I have some trouble. He was such a vibrant personality that seeing him deteriorate physically was an uncommon horror. But you lost your brother in a car accident, and he might have had cardiac arrest before the car accident, and then it's gone with no warning. You can't say any of the things that you want to say. He knew you loved him. But I got a chance to say all the things. Your situation seems to me to have something that could have more guilt in it. Guilt being one of the stages of grief just because you were denied the opportunity to say all the things so that goodbye would feel more complete, less shocking, even though it's still shocking. I prefer my set of circumstances because even though I was only at the end physically getting half of him, the lower half of his body just wasn't functioning anymore. I got half of him, and it was better than whatever I think. I don't mean to speak for you, but that's yours seems harder.

Well, I would say this. I don't think there's nothing that I could have said to him that would make me feel good about not having him here. Nothing. If I would have got that time with him, yeah, I would have appreciated it, but I wanted him here, day. I wanted him here right now. I would never get past that. I've done so much stuff where if I passed, in my mind, yeah, okay, yes, you guard them I blessed you many times. You got hit by a car. You should have died that night. Other incidents, a house gets shot up. I'm standing right there, two people get shot, and I'm the only one that don't get shot. I have so many situations where it should have been me. Not the most purest thing in my life, not the most perfect person in my life. That's what I don't understand. I'll never get to that point. I don't think because I'm going to always have a moment where I'm going to look to my left or right. I'm going to always have a moment where I pick up my phone. I pick up my phone He's on my phone.

It's going to always be that moment where it's going to be something new that I want to say to him. I don't think I ever get to that point, ever.

I didn't even know how much I loved my brother until he was in that bed and I wished it was me. So that it wouldn't have to be him. You do realize, though, right? I hope you realized. I am so grateful for having known that I could love like that. That's why it hurts the way that it does. Otherwise, it wouldn't hurt like this. I am so grateful, as I imagine you are, because you sound like you admired him on top of everything else. Never mind loving him. It sounds like you thought in many ways he was better than you, as I often thought my brother was more courageous than I was.

What is his name? What I have his name under. He's the second picture.

Yeah, my inspiration.

My whole life, I didn't have him in my phone as his name. That's my inspiration. He still inspires me today. He inspired me more, even more than he's going on because I wanted to be there for his son. I know the father he was. I know what he wanted for his son. So what he meant to me was more than just a physical being. You know what I'm saying? He was more than that to me. I hope people Everybody's every spirit relationship or love like that with someone in their lifetime. With me saying that my mom and my sister know how me and my little brother was, and they know I would never be the same. I will never be the same. I will never be the same.

Yet you've had more experience than I have with death. I don't know if somebody gets better at that. I don't know if you have any better coping mechanisms, if you have any advice that you can impart on me. Because like I said, not only have I been isolating for many months, the people I went through this with, his best friend and his wife, I haven't even spent many times with them because I just can't rumage around in this bin too much. It hurts so much that I can only take it in doses.

You get to the point where I've been through so much. So let me just... So for seven, eight A few years ago, my mom's mom died. My grandmother dies. Who raised me? Two months later, my dad's mom died. On the morning of my dad, my dad found out his mom died. My dad took some stuff that instantly made him brain dead. So he finds out she dies. On the morning of her funeral, my dad dies. A month before my two months before my brother, my little brother died, we're talking about my little sister dies. So it It's not to the point where I'm numb. I run from it a lot, Dan. I can't lie, I run from it a lot. But I get caught up, and I think this is good for me. Even though a lot of my life has been hurt, I'm blessed, Dan. I'm grateful. I know a lot of people that should be here that's not because they didn't make the right decisions. I know a lot of people that should be here, they just didn't get the opportunity. With me dealing with all the stuff I got, the loss and everything that I've done with the right and wrong, I stay thankful, and I always look at the positive side and knowing where it could be a lot worse.

I know somebody else out here, somewhere, somewhere got it way worse than me that's not complaining. So I deal with it. It hurt. I'm human. I got my ups and downs. I'm a homebody now, so I stay home a lot. I cry a lot at home, but I get I do it because I know it's somebody that got it worst.

Well, but you say you deal with it, but it sounds like you're doing some classic avoidance not dealing with it. You say running away from it.

Deal with how I know how, which might not be the right way.

Well, I'm asking you this, though. Have you considered the possibility of running toward it? Have you considered not running away from it, that running toward pain might have some growth and healing on the other side of it because it doesn't sound necessarily like running away from My loss is more recent than yours. Your loss seems like it feels the same to you that it felt to hurt just as much, and it was longer ago. It was more than a year ago, and the pain is still real. If you considered another path toward- Well, this is a big step for me to be talking about it like this.

I've never been the guy that felt like I wanted to go to talk to a therapist because my question was always, who they go to with their problems? Who does the therapist talk to with their problem? So I never thought of that. I've always felt like I like stuff to happen organically, like now, like it happened during our show that brought me here. And I know God is going to put me in a situation for me to be better every day of my life. And I knew it was going to be a situation where it come out. I didn't know how. I didn't know we was going to have that conversation. But this is a step ahead. And I'm a real organic let things happen guy. I don't force nothing. And this This was the time for me to start it. And wherever it goes from here, I'm open to it.

Because when I say avoidance, I don't avoid it with anybody. My wife has taught me, and I want to talk, as you mentioned, some of your relationship stuff. I want to talk about how love feels like with a partner, because sitting with you guys, and I don't think the interview has aird on all the smoke yet that we did, but I did say to you guys because we were talking about you asked me about love, and I told you something about my wife and Matt said, behind every good man, there is a good woman. And I'm like, no, man, it's not behind me. She's out in front of me. She opens doors and lights swing open because she's changed my worldview, my perspective. She's taught me how to love better, how to love harder because I'm willing to make some of the changes that I have to make here. So I have someone I'm confiding in. I have someone who sees me sobbing at breakfast and saying I'm broken and I don't feel alone. You lost the person who would have been that for you. I would suggest to you, if it's not too forward, that you need some tools.

You can wait for the universe to bring them to you, but you're also pretty willful when you decide that you want something. If you want, there are tools here with grief managers or people that you trust, or just maybe people who have experienced this so that at least you can be less alone with it. Because when I tell you I'm isolating, I am isolating It's isolating, but there are a couple of places where I'm putting it. I am not alone with it.

My wife will tell you, I don't talk to her. She'll hear me crying and laughing now and just come check on me. I feel like I'm just wired. I don't want to put my problems on nobody. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? It might not be right, but that's just how I am. Dan I'll lose it all the day and won't nobody to know. Because in my mind, I can get it back. I don't need to call nobody. You know what I'm saying? That's just how I am. It might not be realistic to a lot of people.

It's not real vulnerable. I think one of the great trusts you can give somebody, your wife, anybody, is your real vulnerability. But I understand the impulse, especially the way you've been- My wife said it all the time there.

She said it all the time. She is right. I don't open up to my wife as much as I should because I feel like I'm the protected provider. I don't have time to bitch and moan or cry. You know what I'm saying? That's why I do it in my own time and just to get it out so I can continue to do what I need to do. You know what I mean? But maybe she does say that a lot.

Have you considered that your relationship might be deeper if you weren't so stubbornly male that way? I understand how you become that stubborn.

I'm definitely stubborn. My wife, she's 100. I'm definitely stubborn. She'll bring up stuff where I'll be like, Baby, I don't want to talk about it. I got it. I deal with it. You know what I'm saying? I bottled it up and go in the room and pull my hair out trying to come up with solution. I just don't even want to put that pressure on her. But I know her being my partner, she don't feel like I'm putting pressure on her. She feel like we're a team, which we are. I do I'm so honored to say that I do need to open up to her on that side of it.

Let them love you. Let people love you. If you love hard and you get the joys I got to stop.

I should accept it, too. I get, yeah.

Well, especially, though, it's tough to be with the vulnerable. It's tough with the vulnerable stuff because that's where you leave yourself most exposed. I also, I can't even begin to understand Even as you described it for us, the way that you were shaped, I understand how it is that you would always feel the need. I'm in charge. I will lead here. I can handle anything because I have. I've told you, I'm not as tough as you are. I don't have these experiences that would scar me. But it also becomes armor, becomes barbed wire, becomes sandpaper.

It's not always good because you look unapproachable that way. I'm the most approachable. You know this, I'm the most approachable person ever. But what you hear about me and you'll see me just standing him out of my bed, you're like, he's not a problem fan, but he might hit me or something like that. That's the downside of it, which I hate. I said the other day, I don't want to walk in the room, Dan. I work so hard. I've done so many great things. I don't want to walk in the room as, Uh-oh, here comes Steven Jackson from the Brawl that got in the shoot at the Strip Club. No, I want to walk us in the room as an award-winning podcast, our production company owner. I want to walk in a room as a man who is receiving the Lifetime Achievement Award from President Biden in a couple of months. I want to walk in a room as a guy who's been honored, a judge has been retired at okay. I want to be honored for the good thing, known as the good things, not just that. And I work so hard for that.

And a lot of people live off the bad things. They feel like that makes them continue to be liked. I don't want that type of like. I want to be liked from people who respect my evolution, how I've evolved, how I've grown. That's where I'm at today. That's why I'm willing to listen to you and to be open to certain things because I wasn't this guy 10, 15 years ago, especially when I was playing in the NBA because of how they treated me. I should have been an all-star four or five times, but I wasn't because I was loyal to my friends, because some guys were about to jump my friends at a strip club and I jumped out and helped them. I had a gun license. They don't get into the facts of those things. I've never been shown who I really am. You know what I'm saying? To the point, I don't care what people think, but I care what people think that I love. That matters to me.

Well, you mentioned your inspiration, and you mentioned three children with his high school's sweetheart. Have you considered that the way that you are keeps you from the loving relationships you You said with some derision. I've had a number of kids with many women. Have you considered the idea that your way of being might keep people from getting to know the most vulnerable you in the way that can result in lasting joy and love?

Yeah, I know I definitely play a part in that. But also, I've been brutalized and taken through core systems by people whose lives I've changed. To see that you have women who would have never seen a million dollars in their life without your hard work or their lives completely being changed for the rest of their lives with your hard work and they want to put you in jail. People that I gave... It's the most, too. 30% of my NBA contract when I was playing was going to court and child support. These were people that I did the most for that's trying to ruin me. Yeah, I'm scarred. I'm definitely scarred. My wife tell me that all the time. But with taking my responsibility and my fault in it, my fault wasn't that. My fault wasn't trying to ruin somebody. You know what I'm saying? My fault wasn't taken from anyone. If I'm wrong for anything, I'm wrong for making lives better. Yeah, I might have made some bad decisions, but we all do. I might have made some mistakes. Yeah, we all do. But when you come down to it, the The quality of life and the way things are now, it wouldn't be that without my hard work and the things I went through, the ups and downs and the things I was doing.

For people that you dedicated your life and your hard work to and for the life to be changed, to do the worst things to you than people from other races that haven't done to you. You'll be scarred. I am scarred from the way that women did me and the situations I've been in with women, but much love and I respect them all now. We have great relationships. But those situations have kept me from opening up because women have in my past, the worst things I've been in my life, they're bringing those things up to haunt you, to bring you down the most. The bad things I've done in my life and the worst things that have been said to me in my life then has come from people that I've been in relationships with because they know what to say to hurt you. I'm not that type of If I love you, the last thing I'm trying to do is say the one thing that I know that's going to make you tear you down. I'm forever scarred because I'm not that person.

It sounds like your answer to my question is, Fuck no. I've been hurt a lot. I'm distrustful. That's it. My armor's up for good. I'm not giving up much more vulnerability than I've already given up.

I can't do it.

You weren't in any way prepared for the temptations that came with the 17 years in in the NBA, right? Not that any formed adult necessarily could be prepared for that.

I wasn't. I wasn't. Not even close. I was blessed to get a good education of how to be a professional from San Antonio early, my second and third year in the lead. But the mind, instead of me doing it my way, it hurt me a lot. I confided in certain people like Steve Smith and certain guys. But once you leave those teams, your relationships change. I'm on teams now. I'm going to teams like Atlanta, Golden State, Indiana, where me and everybody really the same age. I made a lot of mistakes that I owned them to, and I'm glad I made them, Dan, because I wouldn't be here right now as intelligent as I am, as experienced as I am, and as open as I am today, because experience is the best teacher. I know a lot of guys who went through situations but didn't learn from them. Guys that were the all-stars, guys that were on all the commercials and stuff like that, but they didn't pay attention to the good and the bad. They just worried about themselves and not looking at the total aspect of things, even with Rachel. People wouldn't think, out of all the people that Rachel then came through with them, basically, have a will be club type like that.

Rachel Nichols, who was also part of all this mode.

Nobody would think that, right? Nobody would think that. But after every game, I took the time to talk to her. Trust me, I knew how a lot of guys was. A lot of guys I wasn't as keen to talk to women reporters. You know what I'm saying? But I respect everybody the same. I've always been that way, bro. That's just how I am. There's no effort in that. It takes all the effort in the world to hate somebody. It takes no effort to show love and show respect. So not even thinking that when I'm retiring, that Rachel will be starting her own show. I'm like, Oh, I got a great one. And now I'm one of her first co-host. I don't think like that. I'm just a guy who I know what's right, and I leave with my heart. My passion might offend some people, but trust me. Mad to say this, too. That don't talk much, especially when it comes to business, though, with all the smoke. But when I say something, it's normally valid. You know what I'm saying? Because I play my part. I always say one thing about me, Tim called me the ultimate teammate, but I love being the star of my role.

I don't overstep whatever my role is I need to do for any team I'm on. You can put me anywhere. I guarantee you it's a role that I can fit in. I know what's right. It might be misinterpreted, a lot of things I say and do that, but I know for the most part that my heart is always in the right place.

Well, let's talk about some places where you found yourself trying to spread love You've never been accused of spreading hate. You were in the middle of George Floyd-related things. You were friends with George Floyd. You physically, people have noticed this, facially, you look like George Floyd. The specifics of going through all of that, what can you tell me about what you learned, what that felt like, how turbulent all of that was, personally?

When I first picture in my mind, it just reminds me like scenes of a movie. I never thought that I would be the face of the biggest civil rights movement ever. Fifty states and 18 countries all protested. It's never been done. I never thought I'd be the face of that. Growing up, me, protesting and leading a march, those things never crossed my mind. That wasn't in my future. I never thought that. But I've shown a number of times that I'm loyal to my friends, that I'm loyal to a fault. I had no idea what I was doing there. I was woke up by my mother-in-law, telling me, You've seen what they did to your friend. I'm like, What friend? In Minnesota. I'm like, My friend in Minnesota, I'm not even thinking about it. I'm half-sleep, my daughter's with me. I look at the message and I just put it back down. I doze back off and my phone is buzzing, buzzing, buzzing, buzzing, buzzing. So I answer it in my home bar for my hometown named Mike D. He's like, You see what they did to Georgie? I'm like, Georgie? When he said Georgie, it instantly clicked because before he went to Minnesota, it's put a job on my Instagram where I sent him.

He called me and asked for close for job interviews. So I sent him a box of stuff, and he put it on Instagram. I love you, bro. Thank you, da, da, da. That was his whole reason for going to Minnesota was to get a CDL license, to get out the environment in Houston, and to start fresh, which I was all for because his heart is like, he got a great heart. He just wasn't always in the right situation. I look at Mike D and I instantly jump up because when you say Georgia, I'm thinking Georgia, then my mother lost that in Minnesota, so everything's correlating there. I wake up and I'm like, I start looking at the phone, I turn TV in, it's all over the news everywhere. I instantly start I'm throwing stuff after I realized what happened. I'm angry now. Wake my daughter up, my wife come out like, What's wrong? She see the TV. My daughter's scared. I'm just losing it. I did the same thing when I found out Kobe, I was just passed out. I'm just crying. I'm throwing something, trying to figure out what's going on. I'm just sitting there because one thing about me, me and Georgia didn't talk every day.

Georgia has his own life. I have my own life. We weren't guys that we talked every day. We probably went a year or two without talking. But when I go to Houston and he's in Houston, I know exactly where he is, and I pull up on him, and we start talking like we've been talking every day. So that was our life. And anything he needed from when he was incarcerated to out of jail, I've always looked out for him and his family. So when it happened, I'm not thinking, Dan, of this is going to be a big media spectacle. That's the last thing in my mind is thinking about, Oh, this is going to be all over the news. How can I get fame from this? Or how can I be involved in this? I'm hurt. I'm honestly crying, man. This is my boy. How you choking my boy that on TV? I'm actually hurt. This is my twin. This is the only person on earth that look that much like me that's not related to me. I'm like, damn. I'm just hurting to see him. Then he crying all the stuff he crying for his mama.

During that time, I knew I had a relationship where I didn't have a relationship with her, but I knew his daughter's mother, Roxanne. I've been with them many times in the city, and I knew he had a daughter around my daughter's same age. So I'm just thinking about them. I'm not thinking about calling nobody in his family. During that time, I get a call from her saying, Steve, I'm not comfortable with this situation with Ben Crump. I need other representation that's going to care about and do what's best for me and my daughter. She's feeling like he's doing it for a media, because media is skeptical not what's good for the family. During this time, it's all people coming in and saying that they're his kids and all that stuff that he's bringing in. Find out he only has one child. That shows how people was being money hungry and trying to get in for the wrong reason. I wanted to stay away from that. Let me tell you how it's even more of a true example. That's why I always live on facts that I want to stay away from that. The day it happened, it's My nephew, Wu, who's the one who was speaking and talking at all the press conferences and moving with the family, he texted me the day it happened.

He DM me and said, Stevie, the family needs you. I didn't even check it. I'm glad I didn't because I didn't want to be I've seen people go in front of them and be in front of the cameras to do that for the wrong reason. This was my real friend. I didn't want to do that. I didn't even want to be involved. I was on the outside looking in, so I'm glad I didn't see that. And by Roxanne reaching out to me, which is his daughter's mother, she was like, I need help. So I reached out to some lawyers I knew in Atlanta and plugged her with them. And I told her, I said, You do what you got to do. But by that time, she was like, I need you on my side. I need you help. I don't have nobody. You know what I mean? I've never been in this situation. Could you please come be here with me? Could you please speak? I never talked in front of no cameras, nothing like that. I need your help. What else I was supposed to do? So I jumped in front of it without knowing what I was doing.

One thing I did, no. You're not going to find a person on this Earth that looked more like him. And you're not going to find... A lot of times when this happens to people, minorities, where they get killed by police, stuff like that, they don't have someone that's a celebrity that the world knows speaking up for them. I knew I had that to my advantage. So bam, it is what it is. You want me to be the face of it, Roxanne, you want me to stand and speak with you? I'll do it. You know what I'm saying? Not even thinking all the stuff I'm risking. I'm not even thinking that, Dan. I'm not even thinking it, but this is how it works. Now that I know, I didn't have to worry. But as you see, the whole time, Showtime never went against me because they know my heart. They knew me. The people that know me, know me, never question me. So that felt good that I never got questioned by the people I'm working with, you know what I'm saying? Because they knew my heart. And then I was getting death threats. They'll probably get a death threat text with somebody saying, George Florida is a Fentanyl addict.

You and him should die to this day, right? Because there's so many people that live with hate. But during that process, I saw so much. I saw hate, but it was coming from everywhere. I can't name one race that it didn't come from. It came from my own race because it wasn't them up there being the faith. You got activists that do this stuff every day that die for this moment to be in front of the camera. They mad because it ain't them. Then you got people who really hate Black people, who really want to see us dead. I'm getting hate from them. I'm getting hate from people who think that just because I'm standing up for my Black brother, that I hate every other race. I'm dealing with the hate from all that. So during that time, I'm like, okay, I'm getting love from all races, but I'm getting hate from all races, too. You know what I'm saying? I know how it stood my whole life. I started something called Love For All Who I have Love For All, and I I start putting the color of every emoji on my page. Then it switched overnight.

It switched overnight, the support from everybody. Just because you don't know how I stand, I shouldn't have to go through this to show you how I That I stand for what's right and what's right only. I shouldn't have to come out there and show you that I love everybody. If you knew me, if you was with me during my life, I've told somebody from every race that I love them and mean it. That's why when I came out with the love for her, it wasn't no hesitation. It wasn't a thought. It wasn't something that I did, that somebody else gave me. No, this is how I really feel. I was able to do this and get some justice for George Floyd. Trust me, we had a lot of change during that time, but nothing's changed. It's been 100,000 police killings since then. You know what I'm saying? So many. So nothing's really changed.

But it felt like it at the time. No, it felt like a movement.

A big It felt like a big shift, and I'm glad I had a part in it. And then, I never call myself an activist. I would never disrespect the real activists who spend their full life dedicating themselves to the betterment of mankind. So I would never put myself. But at the same time, I was put in this situation that either you to barbecue a meal do without a game game plan, without a blueprint. So whatever happened during that time, it woke me up, but I was also learning a lot, too, because I was learning. I formed a lot of relationships with people during that time that came and heard me speak to see the real me, not what I was speaking on, not the subject I was speaking on, but the person and everything I'm sacrificing and willing to stand up here for everybody to understand that it's not rocket science for us to be all together. It's not fucking rocket science. They might make you think that, but the hardest thing, it takes so much effort, and I've seen this from this situation, Dan. It takes effort. It takes planning to demean somebody and hate on someone, to try to destroy someone.

It takes effort. It takes no effort at all to say, How are you doing, bro? Open the door. Have a good day. That takes no effort. That's why I say it's not rocket sign. That's why I say I'm first team all common sense, because I understand that. And if a lot of people would understand that it's not hard to respect somebody, to love somebody from another race, and if you can't see me as pro-Black as I am, willing to When they understand that way and say it, then I think people are just... They digested so much hate that it's impossible for them to throw it all up, but I wasn't raised that way.

What do you feel like you learned from all of that?

I learned that you You can't save everybody. You can't help everybody. That was my biggest thing to take from it. You can have the best heart, Dan. You can go out your way and try to do all you can to help everybody that you feel need help, but it's still going to be those certain people in the background that's going to come behind you and kick the person that you tried to help. You know what I'm saying? It's going to always be that. I understand. I learned from that that I can't save the world, Dan. I can't help everybody. But the person who Steven Jackson is, I can leave with that. And whatever people get from me, I'm fine with it. But with seeing what happened to Georgie, for the world to see and people still have a certain aspect of hate and just to hate. I don't understand how the stuff that's going on in this world is not just talked about. It's not just myth. It's not in history books. You're seeing it with your own eyes. And if you don't have no compassion, that says a lot about you.

As someone who tries to be about love all the time, how did it feel to be accused of spreading hate yourself by appearing to cosign some things that Dashan Jackson did that were clearly anti-Semitic?

Yeah, you know what, Dan? That's why I'm glad because you've been one of the best at posing questions. I'm in New York right after that happened, right? It's funny. That's why I say, You can't save everybody. I Walking up the street, it's probably 12:00, and some Jewish kids walking by. I was like, Man, why you cosign D'Shones Jackson on that, man? I got love for you, man. I watch your show. I said, Bro, everybody won't get this opportunity, but we're here for a reason tonight. And I pulled out my phone. I showed him the conversation with me and D. Jack. He sent me a text saying about what the team was doing to him, and there was somebody's contract. It wasn't even about what he said, whatever article he quoted. So I showed him and I respond to him. I say, I'm going to speak on the way they're handling you. He read the article. He was like, Bro, why haven't you shown this? Why haven't you shown the world? I said, Bro, because I don't know who I am. Why would I have to explain something? If you knew the story of Josh Pastner, you know I'm not anti-Semitic.

So I don't have to address stuff when I know it's not true. He's like, Bro, you need to show the world that, bro, because everybody thinking... I'm like, Bro, I don't care what people think. I care about what people who love me, who I care about, think. And all All the people that's Jewish, that I love, that know me, I guarantee you they somewhere on social media or somewhere taken up from me. So that situation was good for me because everybody will get a chance to see my fall in other seat, what actually will happen in real time. People are so worried about being first than being right these days. They'll run with an article just to put it out there, not what happened in the real story. Yes, I defended Deshawn because I felt like, Raleigh Cooper said the N-word all on social media at a concert. He got a contract extension after that. Deshawn brought that up about how they handled, well, to them, how they handled Raleigh Cooper, how they handled his situation, so he felt a certain way. I felt like that is wrong. You handled him the same way you handled Raleigh Cooper dealing with contracts situation.

I didn't speak on nothing about the article or none of that stuff because I'm not no historian. You don't see me post articles of quotes from historians or articles of books. I'm not a reader like that. So that's never been me. So trying to put me in that box, I wasn't buying it. I know who I am. But it was tough dealing with it because people always going to go with what they read and not go with the truth. I'm glad I'm able to answer this question because I never really spoke about it, but I didn't get no call from Josh Pastner.

Yeah, but a lot of people would say, Okay, so he has a Jewish friend. That's like somebody saying, I have Black friends, therefore I'm not racist.

But how else can you give an example of not being anti-Semitic without saying that you have a relationship with a Jewish person? Is no other way.

Well, there are other ways.

Give me one.

I mean, that you're not anti-Semitic by coming out and flatly saying that I am not in any way anti-Semitic. I've never shown something.

You shouldn't have to defend yourself when you've never shown a sign of being anti-Semitic. You see what I'm saying? I don't have to defend myself because I've never said anything to show that I was a sign of being anti-Semitic. That's why I never defended myself.

I want to segue here into something that I would like to show you because I don't think that people have done this with you. I think that there was a time that you did some of this. You've had a conversation with Ron Artest about this, and you've done some of this with Matt Barnes. And so you help me where I'm hitting sensitive areas that you don't want necessarily hit. Because when I saw you do this with Matt somewhat, you looked like you were uncomfortable recreating the video that I'm about to show you now from the Malice at the Palace, where you can take us through here the play-by-play. Some context I should give the people here before we start on details I don't think they know here. First of all, Ben Wallace, feared by all, respected by all.

He was respected by me.

Had just lost both of his parents. Yes. So he's grieving. Ron Artes Just is not looking for the fight here. He is not looking for an argument, and he has been told by a mental health therapist to get out of situations that trigger him. And so he lays on the table here and isn't being an asshole, correct? He is trying to separate- He's listening to what his therapist told him. He is trying to separate himself from this situation, and then it just keeps escalating and escalating and escalating.

I knew Ben lost somebody, but I didn't know it was his parents. We knew because he almost didn't play that game.

Yeah. In the conversations that we just had about grief, you can understand how... Because I want to circle back on some of the things that you were talking about. I think you said you passed out when Kobe died from your anger?

No, I didn't pass out, but I responded the same way with just throwing stuff. I left out the house and just took off walking. I just spazzed, I lost it.

Because we'll get back to that in a second. But so how things escalate. You're surrounded by paying customers, and at some point here, Ron Artest gets hit with a drink. So take me through this from your perspective, what it is that you're seeing and what it is that you're remembering here through this.

At this point... Pause. Can we pause?

Yeah, pause that real quick.

At this point, so right now, Ron has come on the table. His therapist told him, When something happens like that during the game, go somewhere, lay down, or just try to put some headphones on the block. He did exactly what they told him to do. But at this time, they're being this walking off, Ron is laying down, but the players on the other team are still talking and still pushing the stuff. So during that time, I walk around. You all a little bit ahead, but I walk around and I pull out my jersey and square up with Rip Hamilton and Lindsay Hunter. Rip Hamilton is a friend of mine. This is a good friend of mine. I just told him we was in McDonald's game together. But it's just a driver at the time, so we're willing to go at each other.

You did pull out the shirt.

I'm not squaring up. I'm squaring up. If that's what you all want to do, we're trying to break it up. You all are still talking. So let's fight. That's what we're going to do.

You were the only one who pulled out his jersey, though, and squared up.

If this is what you're about to do, right? So I seen That's wasn't really what it was. They really didn't want to fight. So I'm glad because I didn't want to have that bad blood with Rip. I love Rip Hamilton. That's my real friend. So I ended up going back to like by Ron. And by that time, as I'm going back, the beer comes, and now you can play the tape. He dropped over the scores to him. Ron goes first. He's trying to get down to the finish. I'm right behind him. But as you see, pause it, pause it, pause it. As you see, this is another reason why I feel like I should get my money back. If I was going in the stands to just throw punches, it's 100 people that I jumped past that I could have punched. I went up about eight, nine rows. I didn't hit nobody on my way up there. I didn't push anybody. If going up for it, you're going to see me, I go straight to Ron to grab Ron. I don't punch nobody. I'm I'm on my way to grab Ron. Look, I grabbed him.

But soon as I get to Ron, I put my hand on him. A guy throws another beer in his face. I'm like, Come on, bro. All bets off after that. You ain't going to get away with that. And that's when I was forced to throw that punch. It wasn't I was going up there to punch people. I could have went up there. I could have punched people on the first four or five rows. I'm going up there to help my teammate because my coach is going. My coach got him.

Yeah, that's where it happened. You're the first one there. I'm the first one there.

As you see, I was really going to finish. I was going to go snump him out. But they grabbed my jersey, my teammates grabbed me, which I'm glad they grabbed me because I was going to hurt that dude. I'm in Port Arthur right now. I'm not in Detroit. I'm in Port Arthur, Texas, at a club right now, and I'm in survival mode. As you see, everybody-I'm in survival mode. I'm in survival mode. Why is everybody grabbing me, though?

Well, they know who's dangerous there. Everybody's grabbing me. Well, but because you're the most enraged. And furthermore- Look, my brother Seed came.

Seed came up there solely to get me out of the stands. He came up there solely to get me out of the stands.

You're saying you were going up as Peacemaker right up until you see a drink right in his face.

Footage, don't lie. That's why when they came down so hard, I'm like, Bro, he was assaulted twice, and you all didn't say nothing about neither assault. So if I'm wrong and you're fining me $3 million for defending my team and It is clear that this guy threw a beer in his face. I know what this is. It's not about right or wrong.

I did think one of the things I've said this before on our show that was fascinating to watch is that immediately after this fight, the coverage of the media at ESPN, primarily, which is what I was watching, was pro-player. It was the customers shouldn't do that. And then the following morning, all of that changed in a way that I'm like, somebody made a call here. Somebody didn't like the way that was being talked about. And And then the whole story shifted because all I heard was people defending players.

Mike Therico was on air. The fans, they're thugs. It was solely about the fans. The next morning, We getting dragged. We like, No, bro, we was at work. Oh, you all not going to talk about them throwing stuff at the bus when we leave? You all not going to bring up none of that. Oh, we know what this about. This is about the business of basketball. This is about Black athletes with all this money should be acting like this. I'm We're trying to change the dress code and change this shit anyway. You know what? We're going to use them as an example. That was dead-ass wrong, and they know they're wrong. And that's why I'm glad that the documentary came out by no response from them or even try to fix this shit. When they see how wrong the lead was, that shows exactly how they stand on that side.

Have you come to grips? I know we started with some of this because it seems bittersweet. You're one of the few people your age who could be on the cover of what up the all the smoke is and be with your arms crossed still at your age. Everyone knows that it comes with a street credibility and a loyalty. The person that is there, everyone feels like they know what he's about, but they know this much about what you're about. If this is all they're using.

That's not even 10%. The lawyer part of me, yeah, you see that on me. You see that I'm a solid guy, but I'm so much more than that. You know what, Dan? I don't care if people that don't matter to me look at a different way. I don't. But because I don't come in contact with you. You're not in my daily life. I care about the people I'm around. I care about the people I work with. I care about the people that I'm willing to do things for and reach out to and do give back. I care about those people because that means something to me, because I'm around you, because we crossed it every day. I want you to know that you have a lawyer person I'm not around you. I want you to know that you have somebody that's going to speak up for you the same way, or talk about you the same way when you're not around. I want you to know that I am considered myself the most solid guy ever. I want you to know that's where I stand. But if you're not around me, I'm not going to put in that effort.

To let you know how great I am. Because it doesn't matter. The people around me need to know that. And that's how I live my life.

Is it something that has its scars on you still? Am I reading I'm not even too much into it when I say, The interview I saw with you and Matt talking about this, it seemed like you were withdrawing- I'm still pissed.withdrawing into yourself.

I'm still pissed. I feel like at this moment, they need to be watching me and you talk about it and be like, No, bro, we give me your money back. Refund. It's just that simple. It's dead ass. There's no way that they should have took $3 million from me for that when I was at work. I was at work. I wasn't in the club. I wasn't just being a thug. I was defending my team. The tape shows everything. Okay, if I were to jump over the first row and start punching fans right there, yeah, kick him out the lead. Dan, I was not that person at all. So they was trying to paint a total picture of me and Ron. They couldn't really do it with J. O. Because J. O. Was an all-star. He's one of the best players in the league. And J. O. Wasn't in trouble. J. O. Wasn't that type of guy, stand-up guy. You respect him on the court, but he wasn't that type of guy. So they cleaned it up with him. They dropped his games, I think, to five or something like that. But they upheld it with me and Ron for some reason.

I know the reason now because the picture they wanted to paint. And what happened after that? Dress code, all that other stuff. So I knew what they were doing. We just gave them ammunition to do it quicker.

What do you do with your anger? You have said now a couple of times that you retreat from your wife and go be angry by yourself. You throw things. There seems to be... I've always... I've learned. I've repressed anger most of my life. I would say the last four or five years, I've seen anger make an appearance. I'm uncomfortable with it, and I've had to learn that all anger is really is information. It's data for me, and there's stuff on the other side of anger that I can learn. If you're stopping, though, at just anger, at just throwing things, and now the release, but I'm not going to examine what happened there. How in control are you of your anger and where it leaks out?

I'm more in control of my anger than I've ever been in my life because I don't let it consume me. I used to let something that I mad about weigh on me for weeks. Can't get nothing done. I don't want to talk to nobody. I'm pissed off. I'm not like that no more. My friends will tell you, I'm to the point now where I don't put myself in positions to be angry. I don't put myself in positions or places where something can set that off. I buried Wacko Jacko a while back. That's what Alan, baron Davis, and all them call me Wacko Jacko. I don't even want to see that person. So what I do now is I'm great at worrying about things I control. Jim gray told me, Jack, a lot of times you think about something, don't hit sin. I'm in control now. I don't hit sin when I want to say something. When somebody say something to my face or I see something that's being wrong, I know I'd handle it now without just lashing out. If something happened on the set, normally, I go stop right Hold on. What the fuck are you doing?

Matt. I got it. You know what I'm saying? So I've grown. I've grown, and I'm happy to say that. I've never been more in control of my anger than I am now, and I'm so proud to say That's what I'm saying.

Where and how did you bury Wacko Jacko?

I buried Wacko Jacko by knowing that I was hurting the people that I provided for when I was hurting myself. That's when I was... Perfect example. When I was perfectly For example, when I first got divorced and I was going through my divorce and all that, it was something that I needed to do for my daughter. I couldn't do it because my bank accounts and all that stuff was frozen because I was going through a divorce and stuff, and they wanted to keep tabs all my money and stuff, and I couldn't do it. The only reason I was in that position is because I wasn't being the man I was supposed to be my wife. My selfish acts were hurting people that I cared about. That's just a little situation. I made corrections, and I've grown and made adjustments to my life, changing just for the better. But I was basically forced to do it for the people I love. That's why I love having responsibility, because if it was just about me then, I'll be in the club, partying, drinking, just ruining my life because that's fun to me. That's what I enjoy. But the best way for me today to be in control of my anger, I smoke a lot.

I smoke. Cannabis has helped me since I was 12 years old. We haven't talked about it, but cannabis has helped me a lot in my life. Also, this is another thing, too. Praying five times a day. I can be angry, but I got to pray in a couple of hours. I can't go in a prayer angry, and I don't come out of it angry. It's really It's hard for you to piss me off and say something to me that's going to last. You know what I'm saying? It might last for a couple of minutes, but either I block it out or I got to pray. But when I go into my prayers, it ain't nothing negative. When I come out of it, I'm ready for whatever the next problem is. Those two things, cannabis and praying a lot, definitely helps me. I don't think it's... To be honest, I'm not going to say this, Dan. There's no human being that can help me. There's no human being that can help me because at the end of the day, I know what's best for me. And I look in the mirror every day and know I'm not perfect and know what I'm doing wrong, and I deal with it.

So if you can't look in the mirror and make adjustments by you telling yourself, how you think that you're going to actually take heed to something somebody else tell you? I look in that mirror, Dan, and I deal with everything in real-time. I don't make up nothing. The stuff I'm dealing with in my life, Brian and Matt tell you, I share with them. I'm an open book, but I deal with it head-on. If I can deal with my problems. If I can find solutions and not put them on somebody else or feel like somebody else has to give me an answer to them, it works for me, and it keeps me in control of everything. But it goes back to the praying in cannabis. I think that's the biggest thing that keeps me from even paying attention to stuff I don't control.

Two very different things. Tell me what cannabis does for you and take me through what it is becoming Muslim did for you.

I think for me, a lot of stuff I was taught as a youngster has been Christian, I don't believe as an adult. It's a lot of stuff that I'd read from my own that I know that for me, I don't believe. During the George Floyd time, it's the footage that you could put up, 2003. When we won the Championship. I say, I want to thank Allah. I wasn't a Muslim there, but I was interested. I've always had Muslim friends, my My friend, my dad, I went to elementary to high school. He was a Muslim. I used to be around him all the time. So I've been around that religion a lot. During the George Floyd time, I was really in a space where I was Not learning, but I was open to understanding, right? Because I was trying to be the face for all races and being speaking for equality for everybody. And we're standing up for my Black homeboy who was murdered by a white guy. I'm just trying to figure it all out. And during that time, I was open to learning and to understanding a lot of things. I knew that a lot of things that I was taught growing up wasn't true as an adult, a lot of stuff.

I wanted to learn for myself. I started studying, and I was interested in the religion for the simple fact that all the people that was Muslims that I knew stood on what was best for Black people. That's something that I cared about. Also, when I started getting more and more into the religion, I understood that you're going to be criticized by your own religion, whatever religion you're in. I understood that because not everybody's going to agree with me growing up a Christian and becoming a Muslim. Before I even became Muslim, I knew that I was going to deal with a lot of backlash to that because everybody got their own opinions of what you should be. Everybody got their own opinion of what you should be and how you should live your life. But for me, it wasn't nothing that I planned. I woke up one morning, I had been reading a Quran, and I got a lot of friends in Philadelphia. A lot of friends is like my second home. I called my friend, Tone Chup, and I'm like, You know what, bro? I want to take my Shahada today. I feel like It's the time for me to start getting deeper in my religion and to understand in it.

Also for me, before I became Muslim, Dan, I tell people this all the time. People say, How do you live your life, Jack? I live my life every day to show God that I deserve everything he blessed me with because I know that I don't deserve it. And he still blessed me. I'm here with you. We just signed a new... He still blessed me. I wake up every day to show God I deserve everything he blessed me with. God When I was taking my Shahada, it was something that I wanted to do because I knew it were... In some ways, it will force me to become better. I never stopped smoking in my life. I stopped when I became a Muslim, and it gave me a lot of clarity. Every year, I got to stop doing Ramadan. That's the most clear-minded month I have. It's so many positives from being a part religion that's helping me. Now, Dan, I ain't supposed to smoke. We've been a Muslim, but I'm not trying to be perfect. The people that's involved in the religion, they don't judge me. They understand that it's a marathon, not a sprint. I'm doing what's best for me.

I know my heart is in the right place, and I know I'm not perfect, and I know I'm not the mascot of Muslims. I'm not the Muslim you should follow, but I am Muslim, and I'm honored to say that, and I think it's definitely helped me as far as me processing things during the course of the day. Like I said, it's impossible for me to stay mad, but it also puts me in the state of focus where I'm constantly asking for strength and understanding to be greater the things I got going on. I can't get that from talking to somebody. I have to be able to close my eyes then and really go somewhere else to to put myself in a mind frame that I can continue to be great because the world has been telling me for so long that I ain't shit.

Your life has been a sprint, though. It's been survived day to day to day. So five times of prayer and discipline to slow your life down, the serenity of that must be helpful to just slow your life down.

Coming here, being able to be in the hotel last night and just look out the balcony, smoke, and just relax, I can't tell you the last time I done that. That's why I woke up so more, just wanted to rejuvenate. When I get the times to do that, Dan, I take advantage of it because I put myself out there for a lot of people that I care about. You know what I'm saying? I'm going 110 miles power, but at the end of the day, I'm going the right direction.

It seems like you've got a lot on you, though. It seems like I'm still correcting wrongs from 15, 20 years ago, Dan, and I ain't complaining.

I did it to myself. You know what I'm saying? But I have the opportunity to correct them, and I'm sitting in that. I'm not worrying about what I've done. I'm able to correct them. I'm sitting here with a war winner show. I'm sitting here just doing a deal with you guys and DraftKings, Metal Rock and Draft. I'm not going to sit in that. Yeah, I made those mistakes. Yeah, I've done that, but I'm not that person today. Whether you believe it or not, that's fine. I know where I'm at.

Well, grateful instead of regretful.

Yes, grateful instead of regretful.

It's a huge deal. The cannabis, though, since 12 years old, what does it do for you? Does it soften? Does it Does it just slow your mind down? How does it help?

So growing up, and my homeboy, my little brother said, Ross, said, Cannabis kept us in the house. We'll smoke, go play the game, and stay in the house. It kept us in the mind frame to stay away from the bullshit because it's hard to get away from. When I say this to people, they understand me, they get to know me more. I smoked my whole career there. When have you ever heard anything about me getting suspended for games, getting pulled over with it or in the car arrested? Never, right? I smoke more than anybody. You know why I haven't? Because I don't smoke to be seen. I'm not smoking to be hip. It helps me relax. It helps me deal with my day to day. It helped me deal with things because sometimes I do get frustrated, and I'm real passionate, damn. So as a kid, it helped me stay away from things. It helped me stay in the house. It helped me be more relaxed and enjoy life. I'm always happy. But as an adult, it helps me escape. It helps me understand things. It helps me relax. It helps me sleep. I don't take medicine.

I'm not going to say I'm hardly sick. Thank God, I'm hardly sick. I contribute that to cannabis because it relaxes me. I've never had any surgeries or injuries because I'm always relaxed. I'm always in a good space. I feel like if I was taking pain pills and all that stuff, my body would be all messed up right now because I played with a broken toe for three years, and my only medicine was cannabis. So it works for me, and I tell people all the time, Do what works for you. You know what I'm saying? It might not work for everybody else, but it works for me, and it puts me in a place where I can... I'm high right now, damn. You didn't even know. Nobody knows. I do everything this way. You know what I'm saying? But it works for me. I think everybody has to find out what works for them.

How do you play three years with a broken toe?

One, I just got to the team. Two, we start playing well. Three, Three, I was trying to get an extension. Those three reasons.

Your pain threshold must be pretty extraordinary.

I ended up having to have that. It was all… When I ended up looking at the bottom of my foot, it The bone had broke. So it was like five pieces of sharp bones stuck in my tendon, like knife. So every time I run, I jump everything. I did that for three years. He couldn't understand how I did it. I said, If you knew what was at stake, you would have. If you knew What was a steak, you would have. I worked too hard to get here. You know what I'm saying? I knew I'd get it. If I could play with it and still be successful, I'd get through it. But it was just something I had to do at the time.

What was his steak? I know, but through your prism.

My career, my extension, and what I'm trying to build is shake off. The brawl, the shooting at the club, I'm trying to shake all that off. I want people to see my basketball because I am a good basketball I player. I can play with anybody. I was getting a chance. I was the captain of the team, and Don Nelson was basically showing that you're the guy. You know what I'm saying? You know, Barron Davis was the best player, but I was the captain of the team.

When people believe in you, they don't lose you, huh?

I say this all the time, and that's why I'm forever loyered him. For somebody to believe in you and appreciate you is the best feeling in the world. I'm coming off. As soon as I get here, I'm getting suspended seven games from a shoot out of the strip club, and you make me a captain? Let me tell you all that. I'm there a couple of days. Jack, me and Larry Reilly at the time was this guy. Meet us at this bar, La Hoda, New Orleans. We're going to play some shuffleboard. What the fuck is Shuffle Board. Fuck a Shuffle Board. I don't know what Shuffle Board is. How many Black people know what Shuffle Board is? Do you know what Shuffle Board is? Yes, I know what Shuffle Board is.

All right.

I had no idea what it was. We go to, we playing, okay, it's little balls. You hit off the thing, right? Staying on the table all that. Cool. He gets us pissy drunk. We drink two bottles of Scotch, me, him and BD, Beren Davis and Leroy taking shots. He don't talk about basketball the whole time. The whole time he plans to keep shooting the shit, talking about guys on the team. Sit down at the bar, we take our last shot. He's on to me. We all are on to me about to fall down. All right, guys. Had a good time. Just wanted to bring you here to tell you guys you're captives and walk out. And we sitting there like, Man, BD all this to know just to tell us to be captives? We wasted, bro. But that whole thing, that resonated to me. Bringing me to a bar and leaving like that. That's everything to me. I don't want the lowing out, blow a smoke on my ass face. I don't want that. Get me drunk and leave and say, Jack, you're the captain. That's me. I needed that, right? I walked out of there wasted, but just a bit of smile All in my face.

Like, this is the winning. At this point, he was the winningest coach of all time at that point. The most wins of all coaches that's believing in me to be a captain after what I'm coming from.

I'm surprised he didn't smoke with you. I would have thought that that's what he would-He was fine with us smoking.

He didn't care we smoked. He gave us a five. We came by taking our last drug test because he knew we didn't have to hide it no more. Darron was our guy. He even told a hotel to put fans on our floor in Utah, I think. Darron was my guy, man. But for him to believe in me, I didn't want to let him down. You know what I'm saying? I don't want to let my brothers down because Al, BD, all those guys I grew up with, you know what I'm saying? Monte was a real little brother. We were all in each other's weddings. I don't want to let them down either. So I had to push through it.

What's the most fun you ever had in a season? Those eight-seated warriors that seemed like fun from afar, the 8C that beat the one, the Mavericks, you had the Championship season. If you've got this foot pain while being the captain for someone who believes in you, where do you look at the 17 years and say that that one was the best season.

My happiest and funnest year was definitely Golden State. My best basketball playing year was Charlotte. I should have made the All-Star team. I brought that team from nowhere to in the playoffs. Playing-wise, definitely Charlotte, but the most fun, the happiest I've ever been, the most enjoyment I had playing basketball on and off the court, not even close. Golden State by far.

Why was that?

Because we showed up to practice together. We We went to practice together. We went to dinner together. We went to the strip clubs together. We went to family meetings together. We did everything together, everything, to the point where we had the management of our team using some of our slang our slang words to address each other. We were a real family. Like I said, I don't think you ever find a team where you got four or five guys that all got married and they all had each other's wins. You probably can't name a team that's that close.

You've mentioned the strip club incident a couple of times. This one sticks to you, too. The idea that you're the guy who shoots off a gun outside the strip club in a fight. You feel like that one's on you?

It's on me because I should have known from the broad that everybody don't respond, however. They don't come from where I come from. I'm automatically thinking somebody on my side is finna get hurt, and I got to go all out to make sure it don't happen. You know what's crazy? Since it happened, I've actually talked to people on Instagram that was actually there. I've heard 20 different stories because once I got here by the car, I don't think people know this story.

Or may not know the entire story.

Okay, so it's training camp. Guys want to hang out before the season starts. Me, as a guy named Snaphunt, who was trying out for the team at the time. Me and him were real close. My wife and his wife at the time were best. We're close. We were hanging out with them all day shopping, getting ready for the season to start. I haven't seen my teammates all day. Timates all day. Al calls me like, Bro, the team going out. We all going out. Just a little team camaraderie for the season start. I'm like, Bro, I'm tired, man. We're shopping with the wives all day. Like, No, bro, come. You know, you don't come. You're the heart of the team. So I'm like, Cool outcome. So me and him go out. We meet them at the strip club. I go on the strip club and didn't have one drink. Nobody's drinking. A couple of guys drink, but I'm not drinking. And not even smoking at the time because we begin the season, we get drug testing. So I'm clear of mind. We in there, we having a good time. Like I said, I was with my wife all day.

So really, I'm not even in part of the move. I'm tired. You know what I'm saying? We both exhausted, but I'm in there chilling. So Al says, I'm going to go to another spot. I'm like, Bro, I'm going home. I'm tired. So as we're leaving at the club, I hop in my car. Al is pulling out. He makes a left out the lot. I'm pulling up to the lot to make a left out and go the same way with him. But as I'm pulling out, Jamal Tingsley is coming out the club. Some guys are running behind him. So, hey, if I was selfish, it ain't me. I could have went home, could have read about it, didn't knew it in the news, whatever. I ain't suspended. I'm good. I got my job. I could have easily been that guy there. That ain't in me. I ain't that selfish. I had just got my gun lights at the time. So one thing about being in this situation, if a fight is about to break out and guys are surrounding you to the point where you're getting surrounded by guys, you got to make a quick... You got to do something quick or you're going to get You're getting punched from behind and you're getting stumped out.

You know what I'm saying? Because somebody's going to hit you. You're not going to know where it's coming from. So before that happens, I let off a couple of shots to get everybody away from us. Because I see that there's more guys around JT than that's coming towards out the door. I let off a couple of shots And as I do that, we have been to this club before, never had a problem. So as I do that, security grabs me. He was like, Man, get out of here. Get in your car, get out of here. After the shots go off, and as he pushed me to my car, I instantly I hear a car skirting out a parking lot, I mean, at a parking spot, and I turn around and I see the car. So the car is, the parking lot is small. So me being in my right mind and not being inebrated in no type of way, I see the car, I can't get out the way. He coming too fast. He darted out, and he got up to about 40, 45 miles power in the parking lot. I see him coming. I know I can't get out the way.

Me being in my right mind, which I'm glad I was, I jumped. When the car got close to him, I turned and I jumped to where my back hit the hood. Because if I just stood there, he would have killed me. Just took my legs and killed me. So I jumped. Me being an athlete, I jumped in my butt and I landed down. My butt landed on the car and my back landed on the wishield. But the moment the car hit me in the air. So I'm in the air, I land. Boom. As I'm hitting the ground, every time I hit the ground, another tooth comes on my mouth. Boom, boom. Teeth just flying out of my mouth and my lips are just shattered. I got debris. My lips just tore all up. I wake up, I wake up out of it and the police has my teammates across the street all handcuffed because I guess he thought they was involved. I come up out of it, then. This is Deloitte and me. I come up out of it, no teeth in my mouth, lips shattered with my hands in the air. I did it.

They didn't do nothing. I did it, telling the police, get off my teammates. I'm still thinking about my teammates. I did it. The shell is all, but it's my gun. I got the gun on my holster. I'm like, I got the gun right here. I did it. So they can leave them alone. They put me in cuffs, and they put me in Marquise Day in her in cuffs. While we're in cuffs in the back of the car, I pass out again because I'm choking on blood. So I'm unconscious of the car, choking on blood, and all I hear is Marquise Day is kicking the door because I guess you think I'm either dying or whatever. I got no teeth. My lips are shattered. And I'm just sitting there, I'm gagging or whatever. So he kicking the door. So as he kicks the door, I wake up. I'm still in cuffs. I'm like, Bro, what's going on? I didn't even know I was in a police car. I guess because of my adrenaline, I had to be... You know what I mean? So As I'm coming out of it, they come and get us out of the police cars, and they bring us in the club.

They take our gun license. The sheriff is like, Man, we know who you all are. We know you're not going anywhere. You all can go ahead and go home. We'll talk to your team and stuff and figure all this out tomorrow. When I leave, by the time I leave, my cousin, all my boys that live with me, we're at the gas station, a million guns. We're about to go hurt somebody. I'm in that mind frame, too. I ain't going to even lie. Once they let me go, I don't feel nothing. I'm ready to, who did this? Where they at? What side of Indiana are they on? My career is over. We all at the gas station. That's why I love my Indiana team. Everybody pulled up with guns, ready to have my back. But my voice of reason, he's been my voice of reason since high school. I always call him my voice of reason. Every time we out, I'm about to do something crazy. He's always my voice of reason. I'm mid-conversation, geeked up, Where they at? You know where they at? I'm ready. Jermaine O'Neill, he stopped me. He's like, Bro, I feel I know you mad, dog.

I know you. I've been knowing you my whole life. But, bro, you got to go to the hospital. I'm looking at your mouth, bro. You got to go to the doctor. As soon as he said that, all the pain instantly kicked in because When he said it, it relaxed me. I calmed like my adrenaline. I'm talking about, damn, it felt like my face was about to fall off. I ended up going to the hospital. I had to have plastic surgery on my mouth for two hours with no anesthesia. They couldn't add anesthesia because my lips were so swollen. If they added something, my lips would have burst. They had to fly an emergency surgeon in to do plastic surgery on my lips. So I had to take skin getting cut off my lips, debris getting dug out my gums, all stuff stitched all that with no anesthesia for two hours. The worst pain I've ever felt in my life. I love Rick Carly. Rick Carly held my hand the whole time because when the doctor told me he couldn't numb me, I got scared. I was terrified there because it was so much pain. You mean to tell me I ain't got no skin on my face and you can't numb it?

Rick Carly held my hand, and I said that for 2 hours, crying, fighting it. When the doctor stitched the last step on my lip where I got a scar is, and he put his hand on my chest like, Mr. Jackson, I'm done. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. I exhaled and I slept through X-rays, everything. I didn't wake up until I got home.

Your life is a movie, and your rage is a beast. The idea that you wouldn't even feel pain because you were so hell-bent on vengeance and rage, it seems like a formidable animal that would be very hard to tame.

I was hurt because I didn't try to hurt nobody. I could have put the gun, spread it in him and shot him. I didn't do that. But the fact you tried to kill me, I I was definitely upset at that because he tried to kill me. He tried to kill me. You know what I mean? I was definitely mad about it at the time, but my voice's the reason. Save the day, again.

I appreciate the honesty. I appreciate the vulnerability. Tim Duncan has called you the ultimate teammate. I am happy that we are now teammates. So thank you for sharing this time with us. We will talk more.

Thank you for giving me this platform to do it. You probably didn't know, but you knew after we talked in New York that I needed this. This is beneficial. I couldn't wait to do it. I couldn't wait to get here. I thank you for not only the partnership, but just the friendship and the understanding. There's very few people that I came across in my life that never judged me. They never just looked at the outside of it. You actually took time to care to have a conversation to understand me, and not many people do that. I'm forever undebted to you as a brother and as a friend, man. I just thank you for this platform to be able to talk about this because it has helped me today.

I'm just I'm very eager to see what your growth becomes because I can tell... I mean, your passion is formidable, and the idea that you want to do something else with the remainder of your life that shows people more of yourself. I just can't wait to see what that looks like.Thank you.I.

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