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The week marks the sixth annual KPMG Women's PGA Championship at Agronomy Golf Club, October 8th through the 11th in Newtown Square, Pennsylvania, as the first ever partnership between the PGA Tour, the PGA of America and KPMG, the KPMG Women's PGA Championship brings together the best players from around the world to compete for one of the most coveted major championships in golf competing on championship caliber courses. The KPMG Women's PGA Championship has elevated the women's game to new heights and puts the PGA players in the national spotlight.


And the KPMG Women's Leadership Summit held the week of the championship, invests in rising women's leaders aspiring to reach the C suite by providing thoughtful content, tools and networking opportunities. Together, they serve as catalysts to empower women both on and off the golf course. KPMG continuing its commitment to the next generation of women leaders and proud sponsor of the KPMG Women's PGA Championship. To learn more, visit KPMG dotcoms. Women's Leadership. Since the 1980s, hip hop and America's prisons have grown side by side, and we're going to investigate this connection to see how it lifts us up and holds us down.


Hip hop is talking about what we live trying to live the American dream failing at the American Dream. I'm Zinnemann. And I'm Rodney Cormark.


Listen now to the Louder than Ariete podcast from NPR Music, where we trace the collision of crime and punishment in America.


Welcome, Dan Levy, to really being honest about just a giant piece of shit to the big, silly Bald Eagles, a podcast exclusive that none of our bosses ask for more sports, more work, less pay.


I haven't stopped talking in a month.


I mean, to tell you, just when you thought the show couldn't be more dilutive than last time I listened to this show. I haven't listened for years.


Now here's the marching band. No way am I missing something. What am I missing? The end of the story that Chris Fallica. It's Fallica you made on the penis and the habitual liar.


I didn't ask for any and it was for all of it. The big story.


I'm Chris Codi BSP.


And if you've been with us for a while, you know that Carl Douglas is the voice that we value around here. Civil rights attorney going back decades was the star of the O.J. Simpson documentary that won ESPN an Emmy. And we like going to him on a variety of subjects as it relates to the law and just the history of race in this country, because, again, like he's he's lived and worked through Rodney King and his law firm in Los Angeles, along with Johnnie Cochran and others, has been at the forefront of a lot of the shifting in America that you have seen that was foretold many years or many decades before now and now.


It just seems to be more publicly worse. But he's been dealing with this stuff for a long time. So I wanted to talk to him about some of the things going on in the country. But first, it is the twenty five year anniversary this month of the O.J. verdict coming down. You've told us a lot of great stories about all of the O.J. Simpson trial covering. I'm curious, as you recall, the twenty five year anniversary, if there are some stories you haven't told around here that we might enjoy hearing.


Yeah, I remember because the verdict was reached on October the 3rd, which was Monday. But that I'm sorry, that was a Tuesday, but on Monday, October the 2nd, that was Johnnie Cochran's birthday and everyone on the defense team twenty five years ago, man, we thought that the jury was going to be out at least a week. The trial had lasted for nine months. And. Usually we estimate that a jury is going to be out at least one day for every month that a trial would last.


So Barry Scheck and Peter Neufeld lived in New York. They packed up their bags and they flew back home because they had been in L.A. for so long. Johnnie Cochran's birthday was on that Monday, October the 2nd, and he thought he'd have a couple of days off. Man So he and his wife flew up to the wine country to spend a couple of days alone because I was the manager and the office man, I was responsible for baby sitting the jury that day.


I remember I had a gold jacket on and it looked like one of those century twenty one salesmen.


And I remember after the jury finally had gotten all of the evidence. Eight minutes later, they had had a question. And the question was they didn't have the physical verdict form and the jurors had wanted to get some testimony read, and so they read the testimony and we thought it helped us. And then eight minutes after they got the verdict forms, there was a buzz about a verdict. Now, I know as a criminal lawyer, man, if you're charged with murder, there are a lot of different forms that you have to fill out as the jury.


You have to consider first degree murder. You have to consider second degree murder. And there's all kinds of allegations of special circumstances. But it took only eight minutes after they got the verdict forms for them to buzz three times that there was a verdict. So I remember that was before cell phones, I had to use a courthouse telephone and I had to call Johnnie and tell him that there was a verdict.


Johnnie was in the wine country somewhere and he had to go into a closet and take the car in a closet. And I said, Jay, Jay, there's a verdict, ma'am. There's a verdict. And he said, What? What about Karl? But that night, every single member of the defense team called me about what was going on in the courtroom because we were all shocked that there'd be a verdict within eight minutes. I told them all that story, but I thought it was not guilty because physically a jury could not complete the necessary questions for guilty.


And eight minutes, every one of the eight lawyers on that defense team called me except one that was Bob Shapiro. And that day he was going on a show with Barbara Walters talking about how he would never work with O.J. Simpson or Johnnie Cochran again and how the defense team had played the race card and dealt from the bottom of the deck, which was so hypocritical because he was the one that had formed that concept and that theory before Johnnie Cochran was ever on the case.


But we knew that in eight minutes, the jury could not possibly have voted guilty. And we knew that day it was going to be a not guilty verdict the next morning.


Did you or Johnnie or anyone in the firm have any experience with a case verdict coming down on that kind of charge that fast? Like, are you shocked? You're shocked because it has no precedent in your life.


Before that, my brother, I was shocked until I listened to the jurors talk about that in the O.J. Simpson documentary Made in America, because the jurors said there were two hundred and sixty two days that they had been sequestered. And the closing argument had ended on a Friday night, so they have the whole weekend to just think about the case now, they could not have a newspaper, they could not watch television. They had no radio. All they had was their thoughts for two hundred and sixty one days.


And I thought about it. That meant they had their thoughts for two hundred and sixty one nights every night. They had nothing to do other than to think about what they had heard and to sympathize and consider the evidence. It was unprecedented that after only four hours a jury could reach a verdict. But you don't understand. Those were the only 12 people in America that had heard every question that had been asked. They were the only 12 people in America, man, that heard every answer that had been given.


And they saw the questions that we had raised, not that O.J. Simpson was innocent. Jesus Christ, that's not the question, but that the prosecution had failed to prove their burden beyond a reasonable doubt. Let me give you an example. When you've got a big ass plate of spaghetti, noodles and sauce, now you're talking my language.


Now you're talking my language now and that big ass plate of spaghetti, you find a bug. You find a bug in that big ass, play the spaghetti. Are you going to keep eating the rest of that spaghetti?


Well, I am, but I understand your point. But give me some news. Forget it. I don't want to get it right. That's what happened with the O.J. trial. There was more evident than I ever seen in my life. I was a 30 year, twenty five year lawyer. Then they had witnesses and DNA and all kinds of stuff, but they had bugs in that big Adbullah Forgety, the jury for those bugs.


We said throw out the whole ball. And that's what they did in four and a half hours.


And so how long had Johnnie been in wine country? Didn't even get into his vacation. He had to come right back like it did even get back. Do you get back in time? Like, do they have to delay everything or what?


He he had approached me. Johnnie was rolled and he had a private jet that had flown. He and his wife, Dr. Dale Mason, COQUARD up there. They were during a tour at, I think, Brownness State, which is a black owned winery up and up and Sonoma, Napa Valley. And he then flew his ass on back. He didn't go south west. And they he did private Jet McGuireWoods in those days.


What was your reaction? Were you surprised in any way you know how hard it is to prosecute police officers in this country? Your reaction was surprised in any way or just sort of numb because you've seen too much of this when the Brianna Taylor charges come back. And it's just it's really hard to avoid the symbolism of you basically don't get charged for a crime for shooting her. You get charged for a crime, for missing. And not only that, you get charged for a crime, for missing in a way that endangers the people in a white apartment.


But don't get charged for the people in a black apartment. Like I couldn't believe that's like something out of the onion.


What you got to understand, Dan, Daniel Cameroun, the attorney general in Kentucky, is the black Republican. He was the first black man ever voted statewide in the state of Kentucky, when Daniel Kamryn walks into that office every day, he is a walking contradiction.


And he's a young brother with a future in his own mind, he's being propped up by the Republican Party because he spoke at the national convention that they had just a couple weeks before. Now, in this one case, he is looking at the police department of a city. But in every other occasion that he is working with the police, he is on their side. So it is no wonder to me that he didn't even bring evidence to the grand jury suggesting that Mr.


the cop was wrong and shooting into the apartment because. If you fire your gun first at a police officer, the cops are going to fire back. And if there is collateral damage, Brianna Taylor, we're sorry, but there's no prosecutor in America that would prosecute a police officer for firing back. And there's no jury in America that would convict a police officer of an unintended death because a police officer was returning fire. Mr. Walker in her in her home said, I did not hear who they were, but I did hear a banging on my door.


And I fired first. When when you fired first on a cop, all hell's going to break loose. So I understand wholeheartedly the emptiness, however. A jury, a city council in Louisville paid the family 12 million dollars in less than six months than I've been a lawyer for 40 years, Cameron said. There's a difference between the law and justice. There's going to be a long time to get criminal justice, suing cops or prosecuting cops, but you can get justice on the civil side.


That's how cities and counties say that we're wrong. And by paying 12 million dollars in six months is some small measure of justice for the family. Keep the protests going. But that is justice in America, because all of those councilmen are politicians and they voted in favor of the settlement. So Black Lives Matter on the NBA courts worked. Brianna Taylor on the t shirts of the of the national champs worked. Brianna Taylor on the shoes of LeBron James that works, that put pressure and 12 million dollars and six months is justice on some small measure.


What happened to that 12 million dollars if none of the things that you just mentioned were in play, if there hadn't been that kind of attachment to the social justice message in the NBA, as I always say, Dan, and as even still got to love, we say follow the money.


When you follow the money, there can be change. I know about that in Los Angeles, man. Cops used to strangle the mother here in Los Angeles with the chokehold.


The police chief said our necks of black people were just structured differently. However, in Johnnie Cochran's office, they sued the cops over the chokehold. We got verdicts. We got settlements. And that changed the training in the LAPD. So you got to follow the money. Brianna Taylor is a tragic case. You got to remember, Mr. Walker fired only one time and then cop fired thirty two shots without a response. That indeed is excessive. That indeed is unreasonable.


That indeed is wanton endangerment. But you're never going to prosecute a cop for returning fire in America.


That's because just the laws have to be changed. Right. Because you can you as a legal expert, knew as soon as you saw the first few details on that, you're like there's no way, the way the system is structured that this will end any other way other than black people feeling heartbroken.


And the law is not going to change easily because politicians. Follow the money. In California, the most liberal state in America, we could not even come for a vote. A police reform bill that would simply decertify bad cops in California, where only one of five states that do not have a decertification bill. So if a cop gets fired in Modesto, he could go to Stockton and get another job because there's no tracking of bad cops. We could not get back to a vote in California mad because the politicians don't want to come out and 20, 20.


So I'm not hopeful that changing laws will ever happen soon. I was just going to ask you whether you thought in your lifetime, do you think you're going to die before you actually see that all of the work that you have poured in over these decades, not it'll get change. It has gotten change, but we'll get you something that feels a little less like hopeless heart ache, bruh.


I have I'm sixty five this year. OK, brains and experience leads to wisdom, and I have come to accept at sixty five that black and brown people will not be able to criticize white folk to do right. We got to catch people doing something right. I got to congratulate Roger Goodell for saying black lives matter and not criticize him for not hiring Colin Kaepernick. I got to praise the white folks in Minnesota that did come out and protest George Floyds death and not condemn the fact that now.


On now the polls, more people think worse of Black Lives Matter movement than before George Floyd died. So I got to be hopeful. Otherwise I would be paralyzed and would not be able to get out of the bed. I've got to be hopeful. Otherwise, I would not be able to drive to my office and pick up my phone and deal with these people that are fighting every day. I got a guy here in L.A. that was shot 19 times.


Even the cops say they shot him 19 times. We have gangs and in the sheriff's department in Los Angeles, they don't wear blue, they don't wear red, they work khaki and green. And they are gangs with tattoos and clicks and initiations. So I don't have time to dwell and feel sorry for myself. Brother, I got too much change to try to make on America while I'm still alive.


Is there much of a precedent for a grand jury member speaking out against the state district attorney on how an investigation or trial was conducted?


It is unusual because usually, one, the grand jury is cloaked in secrecy and grand jurors who are not lawyers really are impressed and impacted by that. But it was so outrageous that there was a certain narrative that was not actual in the grand jury room that one of the grand jurors anonymously, through their lawyer, had to speak out now as a lawyer. I listened closely to what Daniel Kamerman had said, that there's a difference between justice and the law.


And he said under Kentucky law, they could not prosecute the cops. So that was his mindset. And he did not offer, I'm sure, any evidence that Brianna was shot 10 times, that there were thirty two firings of guns in opposite directions against all reasonable tactics of police training and understanding that it was probably a case of contagious fire. He could have found a dozen experts that would have talked about how terrible the acts were and how reckless that was.


But he chose not to offer that kind of evidence because he wants to have a political future and the Republican Party in America someday.


How does that land with you, a black man being the face of everything that happened there?


We are not a monolithic race of people. We all don't believe the same. We all weren't raised the same and we don't have the same experiences. I personally despise the choices that he made because I have a different political perspective. But I understand a brother wanting to be accomplished and wanted to succeed. And I understand the rarity. He he wasn't he didn't choose to be born in Kentucky and he wants to excel. And he knows he is every bit as smart as those white boys that are competing with him.


And as a prosecutor, he is a competitor. Man, we trial lawyers are we are modern day gunslinger's, and he is every bit as smart and as articulate. And he has spent his life being non threatening to a very red state. He's connected with Mitch McConnell's firm so he knows how to play the game.


And I don't I don't I don't begrudge him for that. I'm in the law business. I don't do drunk driving. I'm trying to make the money. I'm using the death of black people to make money for Carl Douglas and my staff. So I don't begrudge them a bit. I understand. I disagree with him, but I don't think we are so diverse that we can have black people to. What is the legal recourse for the lawyers representing Brianna Taylor's family if it is proven that evidence was purposely tampered with or withheld their.


There is the hope that the federal government in their independent investigation will find a civil rights violation. The chances of that occurring, certainly under the present administration is slimmer than none. If there is a change of administration, the there is a chance there would be an investigation federally. I'm not sure if it would rise to a federal civil rights claim, but it's possible the people that did the shooting were not involved in creating the war that was defective. There's no question that they knocked on the door, though they did not have to, the question of whether or not they they announce themselves is not germane to whether there's been a violation of federal rights, which is a very, very higher standard for it, for them to prevail.


That's why the state is always the first layer of investigation, because there's an easier standard of recklessness. This was criminal negligence, but they would never even in California, let's be clear, we have a black D.A. in Los Angeles County, a woman. I went to the same high school. There have been six hundred and twenty two killings of police people in police custody in her eight years. She has not proven enough to file charges, but one out of six hundred and twenty two times I would be a hypocrite if I would be targeting Daniel Cameron when I have issues in my own backyard.


Can protesters or members of the media sue if they're injured by police during a lawful protest where they're being ordered to move back?


Yes, protesters can and journalists do sue the police when they are injured. We have that going on right now with journalists who are surrounded by sheriffs and then arrested for simply photographing protesters. There were a couple of cops that were shot at at a station, a metro station in L.A. And there were protesters who were protesting outside of the hospital where they were. And there were journalists who were photographing them and they were arrested for merely photographing what was going on between the sheriff and the protesters.


There's a class action suit in L.A. going on right now where some of the plaintiffs in the case are journalists. We have what cops are bad here in L.A., man. We have a history of cops kicking ass up, journalists going back to the 70s. What did you make of the story out of Houston where a police officer was simply charged with murder, out of that is not one that you get to read very often. I didn't know what to make of what was happening there other than to think, man, he must have really, really been wrong, like beyond murder, wrong.


That is exactly what I took from it as well. And Dan, you know, as I always say, George Floyd is going to be replaced by Jacob Blake. Jacob Blake would be replaced by Brianna. It's going to be there'll be new names because there's not more police misconduct. It's just now being videotaped. And now because we're all sitting around, our TV's cloistered, it's being amplified. And for there to be a police officer charged with murder, you can bet it was horrific that all reasonable training standards were violated, but it was borne out of fear.


Man, cops are deathly afraid of black and brown men because some black and brown men are dangerous. I'm afraid of them, too.


Well, that's that's what Killer Mike just recently said. He's like the frightened, the fearful white man is the thing that scares me the most.


Absolutely so. But fear is what triggers.


Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Nineteen shots of somebody who falls down whenever you hear of more than five, ten shots. I say that was their emotions, their adrenaline, that power their actions and not their thinking. It's tough being a cop, I get it. But don't use that as an excuse for recklessness. I don't drive a car fast for a living. I'm scared of driving cars fast.


I don't jump out of an airplane, but some people do because I'm scared of jumping on airplanes. So don't be a cop if you can tell what it is that cops have to do. Man, when cop world, they call that action. Cops are cops because of the violence, not in spite of it. They want action. They don't run from action. That's a different mindset the cops possess.


I've always been fascinated by the idea that you would choose that as a profession, given how little the money is to risk that kind of danger. It's not like it's a high paying job. It's not like, you know, you're going to be able to retire at 60 in a way that gives you anything in the way of riches comparable to the amount of risk that you're taking with your life every day.


That's scary. I mean, at night. Some folks are dangerous and every cop has a story man of a seemingly benign traffic stop that turned deadly. Every cop has a story of a domestic violence call that becomes deadly. But when you realize only five percent of all arrests are for violent crimes, that's the glorification of cop dumb. That's why the police unions are so, so, ah, so powerful in America, because the anarchy and the threat or the fear of anarchy of black folks going to the suburbs and plundering and raping where women fear of a black planet.


This is a public enemy. Was singing about this a long time ago.


And it's real. It's I mean, it is real that that powers so much of the problem.


And when you understand historically that law enforcement evolved out of the slavery, trade and slave catchers and white folks want to make sure that our runaway slaves are captured and returned to us, that's the whole concept of policing that evolved out of that. So is it any wonder that fear is what powers so much of the law enforcement mentality? It will take a while, but I'm being positive, man. I don't want to be negative.


Bomani got an interesting take on this front where he explains the police officers. We have to sort of redefine the way that we talk about heroes that firefighters aren't talking about. All I need to do is get home at the end of the night, safe to my kids and my wife. Firefighters are fighting fires otherwise and risking their lives and doing so because it's a different mindset than just getting home to your wife. But police officers, that that is embedded in the culture of police work and it speaks to the fear you're talking about.


Like if you go out to your work and that is what your take I just need to get home like that is not a way to work confidently if you're not one of these action seekers.


And it's called the warrior mentality. And for decades, police officers have been trained in the warrior to us versus them. That's militaristic as opposed to the Guardian mentality where I want to help you. I want to protect you. This warrior mentality is the problem. And that's why you can have you can have tanks, man running through the streets of Portland. And folks aren't outraged because we as a culture accept that warrior mentality in England. The cops don't even carry guns.


For goodness sakes, you don't see anarchy in England. The couple never carry guns. But it's a certain Wild West mentality that will take generations for us to evolve. But it's warriors versus the Guardian mentality. And that's the that's the essence of what has to be change. And it's not going to happen until middle level cops retire and move on.


What do you think's going to happen with the St. Louis couple, the married couple that was indicted on pointing their guns at protesters?


The governor of St. Louis, Missouri, has already said, I'm going to pardon them. What they did was reckless, the the value and the power of social media, it does matter young people, your voices do matter because the outrage from the social media onslaught of what happened and then their glorification at the Republican convention forced the saner hands in Missouri to bring charges. But there's symbolic man, just like, you know, the white supremacist guys that are coming out of the woodworks are now symbolic.


And there is always in America going to be that forty two to forty three percent in the polls that are going to buy into that no matter what is said, no matter what is done. But it is to me outrageous. But I'm glad they were prosecuted.


At least I can't imagine, no matter how much experience you have at this and no matter how hopeful you are, how you experienced a president of the United States during a debate, talking to a white supremacist group and telling proud boys, stand back and stand by.


Well, let me say a couple of things. First of all, I owe taxes to the federal government. This president holds a grudge, so many saying shit that's bad about him, to be clear, because he does hold a grudge and I am vulnerable. OK, I watch for the first 10 minutes. And after throw my socks at the TV screen for the good of my fifty five inches on the screen, I off put on a baseball game and watch the highlights, man.


I'm not surprised by what I heard. It was to me most distressing when I heard his out of his own words in January twenty eighth, his interviews with Bob Woodward. I thought he was merely uninformed and not malicious, so I was impacted more by the solemn realization that he's not dumb. That he did know what was going on and that really said all that I needed to hear and to know about our president. Karl, good talking to you.


I am leaving here. My Gry and I are slinking out of here and not even going to mention that you're wearing your Lakers shirt and that you want to taunt us on the way out here. We're not going to give you the chance. What are you dancing?


Yes, yes, yes. I looked through my entire wardrobe for this particular shirt to put it on, because this is the way I told you guys weeks and weeks ago. I going to happen. I love the heat. I love Pat Riley. But it's not because Gordon was hurt.


This was destiny. You have to understand, Mike Ryan in the bubble, you have to have that internal ability to marshal the troops because there's no home court advantage with home court advantage. It is the underlings. No, No. Five through nine that show up. But without that and the bubble, you have to get that internal energy that Kawhi Leonard cannot generate. Get out of here.


Get out of here. The Clippers banter is fair, but history shall remember that. Goran Dragic Gingery Colonel Douglas adversaries remember.


Look at LeBron as great now LeBron as great ever. Michael J has the one, but LeBron will have the greater career when all is said and done. Next time. Next time America. I love this man I want always come back.


No you you can't do this. If only Goran hadn't played.