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Your first real significant career move seemed to be this encounter with Spike Lee's agency. Yeah. For people that don't know, who is Spike Lee and how did that happen?


Spike Lee is blackety, blackety, black, first of all. All the blackness. No, but he is a film director, really, at his core, filmmaker, let's call it that, because he certainly produces and does other things and writes. But he has an advertising agency in New York. When I was there, it was on Madison Avenue. Madison Avenue is the place for advertising in the world. It's the place where the show Mad Men was made from. Ddb is one of the biggest agencies, and Spike had a JV with them.


What brought you to New York in the first place?


Curiosity. I graduated from Wesleyan University, which was in Midtown, Connecticut, and it was just time to apply to med school, and I really didn't want to. New York was right there. It was an hour and a half from school, and I really didn't have a plan. I just went trying to escape what I thought was my destiny. Like many people say, I think sometimes in this business, I fell into this. But I think my destiny actually came to find me. That's what it was. I opened up and allowed for something greater that I didn't even know was possible to find me instead.


So many people are in that chapter of their life where they're trying to find their destiny or trying to figure out a way to let their destiny find them. When you look back and connect the dots as to how your career came to be and you think about that first moment where you went to New York and then you're on Madison Avenue, you're working for Spike Lee and you find your destiny or it finds you. If your daughter comes to you and says, Mom, what advice have you got for me on finding my destiny? What have I got to do to actively bring it about? Oh, man.


Have you ever heard that statement like let go and let God? No. Have you heard that before? No. It's a very Christian thing. I feel like in the Black church, there's a lot of that, let go and let God. As if God is just going to just sprinkle magic dust over you. I'm like, No, I don't necessarily believe that just as a plain statement. I think the letting go is an action. It's not surrender. It's like you just lay down and it's going to find you. You're not going to find your destiny sitting on the couch. The letting go, for me is like the letting go of preconceived ideas about what it is that you are going to do.


Letting go of sometimes you're trying to do something and keep hitting a wall. You're just like, Oh, if I just hit it one more time, it's going to break. Sometimes it's like, that's a cement wall. If you just move five feet to the right, it's actually plaster, and you're going to go right through it. Sometimes it's the letting go of this thought that you had, which is like, Oh, I'm going to do this thing right here, is the magic. I'll tell you this. Look, it didn't just happen at that stage in my life. It's happening right now where I'm like, Okay, well, I think I am done with my corporate CMO work. I believe I'm finished. I'm going to let go. Let go of it. I'm not going to be actively looking for the next CMO job. I want whatever is coming for me to come. I'm going to allow space for it. Now, it doesn't mean I'm just sitting around. I'm also trying to polish other skills. I'm trying to create because perhaps the next thing that's coming is somewhere more in that space. I can feel it in my spirit. That understanding of your intuition, and if you're listening to it, it's like a magnet.


It's going to just draw you closer to the thing that you're supposed to do. It has happened every single time. Every time, without fail. Every job, every move I've been made hasn't been because somebody said, Oh, you know what? This makes logical sense. One plus one equals two. Sometimes I'm just like, But it's not math, though. It's physics. It's not the addition, it's the subtraction. I'm just going to sit here and I'm going to get up and I'm going to go talk to this person and I'm going to talk to that person. I'm going to sit back down again and I'm going to write this thing out. Then like magic, because I don't know how else to describe it, is the destiny appears. I'm telling you, every time it has happened, every single time. Even when people were like, Oh, that is never going to happen. You're wasting your time. I don't know why you'd go over there and do that. I'm like, I don't know. Something inside, I'm telling you, telling me that this is the way to go. I'm going to go over there. Every time it's worked.


But do you believe... There's a lot there for me. There's a lot that I'm interested in there. Do you believe, because I want to be clear, are you... Because some people hear that and go, Love that. Everything happens for a reason. I'm going to chill and my fate is pre-written and it's coming for me. Bo said, All I got to do is wait. Because everything happens for a reason, it's pre-written, so I just going to pay these tarot cards and I'm going to... This is.


When I start banging on the table. No. If I.


Just chill here. No, no, no.


Don't chill in here, okay? I think you're probably talking my energy. I'm not one of those chilling here type people anyway. I don't believe things are pre-written, actually. For me, the idea of destiny isn't that something is already predetermined for you. I think you create your destiny also. Meaning that, look, there was a movie in the late '90s called Sliding Doors, starring Gwyneth Paltrow. The concept is basically like if you're running for the train and you catch it, you jump inside, you have one destiny. If the door is closed and you still stand on platform, then you have to catch the next train, it takes you to a different destiny. That's the concept, right? It is what I also believe, which is that my destiny is not pre-written, but the movements that I make are what lead me to the thing that's actually for me. It's a constant evolution. I don't believe that you have to sit and wait for it. I think your constant movement, your constant discovery is actually what then brings the destiny to you. This isn't about predetermined anything or just like, Let me just chill out on... Like I said, you can't sit on the couch and expect your destiny to come for you.


It's not reading my horoscope with the tarot cards?


No disrespect to the tarot card readers. But I do believe that we are constantly creating our destiny. This life that we're living, these experiences that people we're meeting, people you're in relationships with, it happens because there's a certain action that you take that leads you to that thing. Now, it's your choice whether or not you take it. Then that's when the whole intuition thing comes up for me. Because I'm like, Now, you may have caused a lot of action. Then you have a couple of choices in front of you. Where are you going? Which one is calling you? You know what people like to do? They want to write pro and conless. They want to ask people for advice. Do you think I should do this or should I do that? Both of these are good. Why are you asking other people? They don't know. They're not living your life. They don't have the whole desk. They have their own thing. But why are you asking them? If you got quiet for a second and heard your intuition, but then again, sometimes people are scared because it's telling you do something that you probably don't want to do.


You're a little scared of it. Then you're going to choose the wrong thing.


It's hard to hear your intuition when George is very loudly telling you, George being your father. Yes, sure. Everyone can relate. There's always an external voice, which is very loud, whether it's social expectation or Instagram or George saying that this is the right thing to do. How do you tune into your intuition and out of George?


It's like any muscle. It's like, look, we all have biceps, but some people's biceps are enormous.


Thank you.


That was good. That was super smooth. That was really nice. Nicely done. But it is like any muscle. You got to work it. You've got to listen to it. You have to make it brave to talk to you. I feel like it's like that friend... Now, this is not about multiple personalities, but it's like that friend who's talking to you inside your head. If you keep dissing it and keep being like, Shut up. No, it's a bad idea. If you keep doing that, that voice can get quieter and quieter. What makes you think is going to ever be like, Listen, Boze, I told you. No. Look, my intuition is so loud. Oh, there's no way. I meet people. And we'll be like, That person is not for me. And no. By the way, somebody else will be like, Oh, that is a very powerful person. They'll introduce you to this other person, or, Oh, they're so smart. They've done this and that and that and that. Not for me. I'm not even going to engage. My intuition is that strong. I trust it 100%.


Because you've had to train it, right? Yes, I've had.


To allow it to lead me.


Is that because of what you said earlier about the survival and the pattern recognition is developed now where you can see a couple of cues, your intuition goes, Oh, we met this person a couple of.


Times and it never ended well. Yes, that's part of it for sure. Throughout my life, I've had to listen to my intuition, allow it to lead me, even when other people were like, No, whether it was my dad or a friend or a mentor, a boss, when they've been like, Mm-mm, no, that's not the thing you want to do. You should do this. This will be more successful for you. Then my intuition was like, Actually, I don't think so. I think you need to go this way. It is so hard. I'm not pretending as if this is the easy thing where it's like, Oh, just listen to your intuition, you'll be fine. I think it's dumb hard. You know what's like? Look, because sometimes the logic makes a lot more sense than your intuition. I'm not saying that it's easy, but it is the only choice if you want to be successful. Successful to me these days means that I am happy and at peace and enjoying the thing I'm doing. It's no longer about the title or the house or anything like that. Do I have freedom? Oh, man. Freedom isn't just like, I can do whatever the hell I want.


Freedom is that I can be working on a campaign and not sleep for three days because I'm so excited about it. That's the freedom I'm talking about, really enjoying the things that I'm doing. If I am listening to my intuition, it's going to lead me to those opportunities that allow me to have that experience with people or with jobs or whatever.


It's such an important question that I don't think people ask themselves there, which is, what is your definition of success? I know it's a fluffy question or whatever else, but once you have that as your North Star, it completely changes your direction of travel. That central question, I think, and everyone listening to this now, what is your truly your definition of success? Because if you're not clear on it, someone else is going to write that definition for you and it might be George, you know what I mean? Yes, or anybody else. Or Instagram might write it to you. Or your partner. You're going to go down that path and find yourself lost. Oh, my God. It will just be a feeling inside your chest that says, We made a.


Wrong turning. Every time. You know sometimes that shows up in the Sunday scaries?


Oh, my God. Yeah.


It shows up there.


We're having a conversation about this on Sunday. We're like, Isn't it strange that it's Monday tomorrow and none of us have crossed any of our minds?


Exactly. Or freaked out about it. God, it's like, man. When I started recognizing that Sunday scaries were tied to my wrong turns, guess who jumped into the driver's seat real quick? Me. It's like, look, and again, we're not saying we're not making light of him being like, Oh, this is so easy. Just change direction. But it's so helpful when you recognize it and then you're like, Oh, okay, now I can do something about this. It's like, right? Isn't that the first step of any problem-solving is to recognize the problem?


Do you think life... Sunday scaries is a signal. Oh, man. I'm telling you. It's a signal, and it's a very important signal, and it's screaming at you.


So loud. The thing is that think about Sunday scaries in relationship to anything in your life. When you are in a relationship, let's say, romantic, and you have to go hang out with that person, and you're not feeling so cute about it. Might be time for you to reevaluate whether or not this relationship is good for you. You should be feeling that like, Oh, I really want to go do this thing with this person. For me, it's not even about length of time because marriage is not something where it's like people tell you all the time. It's so hard. It's like, you'll fall out of love with this person and then fall back in love with them. I'm not talking about the fickleness of your everyday feelings. I'm talking about the consistency of a mood that you are in when you are in the presence of that person. Do you feel great? Do you have ickiness when you're with them? That's a Sunday scary that you need to watch out for. It's not just about like, Am I going to wake up and go to work tomorrow at a job I hate? I apply that to everything in my life.


That's the freedom that I want in my life. That I don't engage with people that I feel the ickiness with.